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Team Pyro Opens It Up…

Frank from the Pyromaniacs blog has put up a post that permits commentary about Sovereign Grace Ministries.

I haven’t yet decided if I have the courage to join that discussion.  Frankly, I’ve found the interactions over there pretty intimidating, even just as a lurker.  I’d strongly encourage anyone who chooses to participate to abide by the established rules, work hard to contribute concise and focused points, and do your best to keep your cool.

389 comments to Team Pyro Opens It Up…

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  1. Kris
    May 13th, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    Considering that “jimmy’s” posting name over at Pyro has been “James ‘Jimmy’ Brown,” Guy and I have been reminded of a very funny comedic riff we heard awhile back, where the comedian was talking about how nobody could ever really be sure of what James Brown (the singer) was saying…so the safest response to everything the musical legend might say would be just, “Yes, James! Yes!”

    :lol:

  2. Kris
    May 13th, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    Stunned,

    I do not believe this “jimmy” is the same “jimmy” who grew up in SGM. I’m thinking maybe the new “jimmy” should change his posting name to “Yes James!” :D

  3. Bridget
    May 13th, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    “Jimmy” shares his loving concerns over at TWW quite a bit as well. He always feels he is the voice of reason (not logic mind you) to everyone.

    He is always “standing in the sted” for Mr. Mahaney and SGM. I guess Mr. Mahaney cannot speak for himself.

  4. Kris
    May 13th, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    Yeah, I don’t really get “jimmy’s” obsession with whether or not CJ Mahaney has spiritually abused anyone firsthand.

    One of the benefits of being at the top of the heap is that you are able to delegate the dirty work to others. You don’t have to be the one personally putting the poisonous pellets into the gas chamber in order to bear responsibility for the ensuing destruction…

  5. Another Joe
    May 13th, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    @ Yes James! AKA jimmy

    I believe that what it all boils down to is this.

    1. Are the blogs in accordance with the Gospel?

    Answer Yes

    2. Are the blogs biblical

    Answer Yes

    3. Am i a the worst sinner i know?

    Answer Yes

    I don’t have to explain myself I AM C.J. and i know the Gospel better then you.

  6. Unassimilated
    May 13th, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    Primary Sources…

    Alister McGrath

    Lou Engle

    Mike Bickle

    Che Ahn

    Michael L Brown

    Steve Shenk

    Chip Grange

    Stephen Strang

    Rick Joyner

    Ken Roberts

    Tommy Hill

    These are are some of my sources. Are we going to have a pxssing match to see who has the most
    authoritative sources now? I was personally part of SGM for many many years as well.

  7. Another Joe
    May 13th, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    @ Kris

    You would think that if C.J. felt (as we know he does) that his insights into the Gospel where so special and these blogs where hurting him so bad. Why not just write your books under a different name. Donate all the money to charity and await your reward in Heaven?

    Because Men like him can’t do it can they?

    The men who wrote the greatest works in christian writing and preaching died way before they where ever fully given there celebrity status.

    Sad that men who strive to walk with giants miss there truly greatest works in life.

    The Men that C.J. and the rest of the reformed big dogs love to quote would be sick to see the way there teachings have been distorted.

    Where are the Widows, Orphans, Sick and abused.

    I forgot they’re here on this blog…..

  8. Jimmy
    May 13th, 2012 at 6:11 pm

    Kris said: “Yeah, I don’t really get “jimmy’s” obsession with whether or not CJ Mahaney has spiritually abused anyone firsthand.

    One of the benefits of being at the top of the heap is that you are able to delegate the dirty work to others. You don’t have to be the one personally putting the poisonous pellets into the gas chamber in order to bear responsibility for the ensuing destruction…”

    ( That’s EXACTLY the kind of statement that Turk said he would not allow in his discussion. Kris, you have opened the door for all of your other commenters to post other outrageous analogies. You have led the way. This is the kind of statement that has made it so very difficult to know where the truth actually lies. C.J. and the gas chambers? No wonder AoR scolded the blogs.)

  9. Kris
    May 13th, 2012 at 6:14 pm

    Yes, James! Yes! I feel good!

    (You seem to forget this isn’t Turk’s blog. I think it’s a good analogy, even though like all analogies it’s a limited one.)

  10. Guy
    May 13th, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgMAFXaVOXk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  11. Bridget
    May 13th, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Jimmy -

    Your lack of logic has led YOU to not know where the problem lies. The blogs have allowed people to be free to speak without fear and be heard, which is what should have been happening in their local churches but was not. It is still not happening in many of SGM churches.

  12. Jimmy
    May 13th, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    Ah, my soul brother; the late James Brown. Did he ever get buried?

  13. 5yearsinPDI
    May 13th, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    Kris- I’ve been traveling in Reformed circles for a very long time and I never even heard of this Pyro blog until mentioned recently here. Who exactly is Frank Turk and why does anybody care what he thinks? Seriously? What credentials does he have that anybody should listen to him? Does he teach at a seminary, pastor, write books, or what? Do miracles?

    No matter what we may think of them, I can understand the respect people have for the opinions of Duncan, Trueman, Mohler, Sande, etc. Brilliant men, educated, pastors, writers, influential leaders for a long time. Even CJ presides over a denomination with 28,000 people, and books that have sold to many thousands of others.

    So take away a blog and what exactly does this Turk guy have to offer to the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ? Is he devoted to earnest prayer for revival? Is he the one somebody said used to hang with Driscoll? Why does anybody care what he does? Is he some big new influence with the YRR crowd or what? Not trying to be negative, but I don’t get it. Can somebody clue me in? Thanks.

  14. glad i am out
    May 13th, 2012 at 6:54 pm

    Jimmy

    There’s an old saying: The fish rots at the head.

    It’s true on the beach, and it’s true in SGM.

    I have several PRIMARY sources. But i won’t waste another second on a guy who will not see reality and use the brain God gave him to reason and to think for himself.

  15. Guy
    May 13th, 2012 at 6:55 pm

    Jimmy….he has a bridge. I think that’s it.

  16. 5yearsinPDI
    May 13th, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    by the way…

    at the top of his blog it says “setting the world on fire”. Who does that refer to? The Holy Spirit baptizing with fire? Or his little blog? Or his little group of pals? Or the new Calvinists? Help me out, am I too cynical? Is this another ego maniac who thinks he is the greatest thing in 2000 years? Setting the world on fire? really? Is his blog part of that?

    So this Phil Johnson, who rejects utterly (see bottom post) any special (non canonical) revelation of the Holy Spirit today……did he never read about the words of knowledge Spurgeon had? And the prophetic gifting of those old guys like Mather, Flavel, Rutherford, etc? How can they quote all that Spurgeon and turn around and say nobody can do what Spurgeon did occasionally under the power of the Holy Spirit at least a dozen times? http://www.canonglenn.com/tag/charles-spurgeon/

    They sound pretty stupid, honestly.

  17. Unassimilated
    May 13th, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    There is a tape recording of CJ Mahaney threatening Larry & Dorris Tomczack, or Blackmailing him if you prefer. A clergy man threatening to break the sanctity of the confessional for personal reputation and gain at the expense of others seems like some sort of abuse. Quite the e-mail chain on this made public as well.

    We could start there as an documented and recorded example of CJ behind the scenes, personally being abusive to a member.

    Seven of my sources heard this tape, were appalled, and made statements in response to his threats. This all apart from this blog or any other blog.

    Perhaps the tape should be made public.

  18. Kris
    May 13th, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    5years -

    The Pyro blog is run by a team comprised of Frank Turk, Dan Philips, and Phil Johnson. I don’t know what Frank Turk’s non-blogging career is like, but I know that after some years spent working in technology, Dan Philips is now a new pastor, recently hired by a Reformed Baptist church in Texas. Presumably, he got this gig at least in part because of the success of his blogging endeavors (which also led to a couple of book publishing deals – his World Tilting Gospel came out within the past year or so, as did another book about the Proverbs). Phil Johnson has worked for something like 20 years for John MacArthur, for the Grace To You broadcast and also as MacArthur’s book editor. Tom Chantry is a frequent commenter who seemed to function yesterday as a de facto moderator, and there have been instances when the main contributors have mentioned that they would almost consider Chantry as part of their team.

    The Pyro blog has been around for approximately 6 years and has been one consistent source of commentary (from a Reformed perspective) on current events facing the present-day Evangelical church. The Pyro guys have had a lot of (what I would consider) good, worthwhile things to say about, for example, the Emerging/Emergent movement. They appear to view themselves as watchdogs for all that is biblical and are eager to speak out against what they believe to be unbiblical.

    They reserve their greatest ire and scorn for all things Charismatic. All those guys despise anything that might indicate the gifts (or, as Dan Philips frequently says, mockingly, “Da Gifts”) are active and happening today.

  19. Unassimilated
    May 13th, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    I would love to see Dan Phillips face if had had a chance to visit a CLC service back when they would lay hands on people, and
    had dancers on the stage every Sunday. There were stretchers for those that were slain in the spirit as well. I personally
    used to look forward to bringing my tambourine.

  20. Kris
    May 13th, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    I should add, I have had a great deal of respect and appreciation for the Pyro guys over the years. I have learned a lot from them. I especially appreciate Phil Johnson’s clear thinking and excellence in writing. Johnson also seems to be the least caustic and vicious of the three main contributors, the least eager to participate in the mean smack-downs that happen quite frequently in the comments of their posts. I’ve actually had to take breaks from allowing myself to read the comments there, as I find myself feeling alarmed over the mean-spirited smugness that seems to result from believing in the absolute rightness of their own theology.

  21. 5yearsinPDI
    May 13th, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    Thank you Kris!

    The hard line cessationists don’t know their Reformed history very well.

  22. Lee
    May 13th, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    I appreciate Phil Johnson too and used to use read his website long before it was Team Pyro.

    I do have to wonder though (being slightly cynical here) if Phil is staying out of the SGM thread because CJ Mahaney is speaking out in CA with John MacArthur soon at the Resolved Conference. The conference is hosted by Grace Community Church.

  23. Kris
    May 13th, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    I had a thought about yesterday’s debate at Pyro, led primarily by Tom Chantry, over whether or not it is “biblical” to share or read information about SGM’s problems. Mr. Chantry kept going on and on about whether there was any sort of biblical mandate for Brent Detwiler’s release of the documents, and whether we see any instance in the Bible of people who are not members of a particular church discussing that particular church’s inner workings and problems.

    While I can appreciate and respect Mr. Chantry’s desire to align his own behavior with scripture, his continual attempts to bring the discussion back to that point – whether the Bible mandated discussion of SGM’s problems – to be bizarrely short-sighted. I mean, SGM as an entity has shown itself to have no structures in place for any sort of meaningful formal resolution of its own conflicts and problems. The AoR report actually stated as much. It was couched in lots of flattering flowery lingo, but the AoR guys nonetheless did tell SGM that they needed to improve in this area.

    I wonder what Mr. Chantry himself would have done, if he had been in my position, interacting with hundreds of people who have shared remarkably similar stories of manipulation and control and downright spiritual abuse (particularly pastors’ abuse of their own supposed authority in the believer’s life). When someone emails you a really terrible story about what happened to them at the hands of their pastors, do you get all hung up on whether or not it is “biblical” for you to hear their story? Or does the love of Jesus make you sympathize and empathize with them and wish to help them make sense of their experience and sort through it and figure out what happened to them?

    I guess I’m reminded of the parable of the Good Samaritan. When the guy was lying injured on the side of the road, Jesus did not seem to approve of the behavior of the clergyman who was focused on following the letter of the law and passed to the other side of the road rather than contaminate himself.

    (And yes – that WOULD be another analogy, for all you analogy-hatin’ soul singers. :D )

  24. Kris
    May 13th, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    A few people over at Pyro have also wondered about whether or not sites like this one do anything to help people find healing. Several commenters suggested that it’s NOT helpful to discuss our personal experiences with others who have had similar experiences.

    I think it’s easy for the casual drive-by reader to get the wrong idea of what happens here. The negative SGM experience is often something very isolating. I cannot even begin to tally the number of people who have shared that for YEARS they believed themselves to be totally alone in what they went through. So many people have spoken of how amazing it was to find this site (or Refuge) and realize that actually they were NOT alone, and that what happened to them was not actually uncommon. I think there is an element of healing that comes from the knowledge that it wasn’t you – that you were hurt by a particular system and a particular set of faultly beliefs about the place of the institutional SGM church and the authority and corresponding implied faultlessness of SGM pastors, and that it wasn’t necessarily personal but could happen to anyone if the right factors come into alignment.

    Piecing together that you were mistreated because of your leaders’ adherence to a faulty system of beliefs, and not because of something actually faulty in the GOSPEL ITSELF, can be a very positive thing, very faith-affirming, very gospel-affirming.

    And the thing is, the population of commenters here is continually shifting and changing. Many (or even most) of the people who participated here 3 or 4 years ago have long ago moved on. I have observed a pattern in the process for people who are working through their SGM experiences. They come here, they learn, they realize they were not alone, they participate in the discussion and read others’ analysis of the issues. And then more often than not, they get to a place where they don’t see a need to talk or think about their experience so much. And they leave.

    Most find a place of forgiveness, of healing. And it doesn’t usually involve me (or other “professional moderators,” as the AoR guys would like to see) pointing out their sins and telling them to quit their whining. The Holy Spirit is actually quite a good Teacher, a very good Helper, and perfectly able to lead people into all truth.

  25. Bridget
    May 13th, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    But, Kris, your analogy is Biblical :) That makes it good and acceptable according to the Pyro guys!

  26. Remnant
    May 13th, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    Kris @73: The Pyro-people seem to be missing a key ingredient in their logic: they hesitate to act if the Bible lacks a mandate about something (like reading Brent’s documents), but they clearly miss the fact that the Bible also lacks a prohibition against it.

  27. Kris
    May 13th, 2012 at 8:45 pm

    The irony is very rich…

    Mr. Chantry just posted the following about what he would consider actual, real abuse, and how what has happened to SGM survivors (whom he then goes on to mock) does not qualify as abuse:

    An elder in a church questions the rest of the elders in a case of discipline; they call a special meeting without him, vote him off the board, remove him from membership, and announce his departure to the congregation with the explanation that they think he’s gone senile – all without saying a word to him first. That’s spiritual abuse. A group of elders worry that a family is getting out of line, so they secretly tell the children to listen in on their parent’s conversations and report back to the elders anything said about the church. Then they excommunicate the parents on the basis of private communications relayed back to them by the kids. That’s spiritual abuse. A man gets into a disagreement with his pastor about some peripheral thing; the pastor declares him a spiritual rebel and then tells his wife she ought to divorce him so that she can marry a “real” Christian. That’s spiritual abuse.

    What he apparently does not realize is that every situation he has described has been reported here. Multiple times.

  28. Jimmy
    May 13th, 2012 at 8:53 pm

    Kris, which of those 3 stories are you going to start with? I’d like to hear them.

  29. Kris
    May 13th, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    Jimmy, why should I? Wouldn’t that be a “second-person” account and therefore invalid in your eyes anyway?

    Aside from the fact that you’re NOT directing the conversation here, I think we’ll just wait for – perhaps – Unassimilated to come and share his story. It’s quite similar to the third situation Mr. Chantry described.

  30. Kris
    May 13th, 2012 at 9:18 pm

    Also, Mr. Chantry’s description of a situation where leaders used children to eavesdrop on their parents and then attempted to hold the parents accountable for what the leaders learned from the children – that very thing was reported as happening to people at Celebration conferences back in the 1990s. I’ve been looking through the old comments to see if I can find the specific situation.

    But I think it’s incredibly ironic that Mr. Chantry is so dismissive and scornful of the notion of “SGM Survivors” when his description of what he thinks constitutes REAL spiritual abuse is quite reflective of situations that have come up within SGM churches.

  31. Unassimilated
    May 13th, 2012 at 9:35 pm

    LOL, oh dear, I did visit another church, so clearly I was not taking my CLC vows as seriously as I should.
    It was downhill from there. Got quite ugly. The fact that my ex has gone on to find her own CJ is a mixed
    bag for her at this point. I am just one of dozens in the unequally yoked sanctioned divorces from CLC.
    Most of which simply were men or women desiring another less controlling church. Guess Church of the Redeemer
    does not practice Christianity in the eyes of SGM.

    There is nothing like hearing, “Don’t make me chose between you and God” when discussing a different christian church.
    Many of my friends were familiar with this phrase, so maybe I ran with a rebel crowd. Perhaps having your marriage
    relationship put on hold, and a pastor stepping in as the families “spiritual head” was a close second. What followed
    was absolutely stunning.

    My vote is for releasing the tape. To hear CJ’s angered and mocking tone as he tells Larry how it’s going to be says
    more than a thousand blogs. Quite a bit of impact is lost in written word. But hey, there are those that still believe that
    we are all spawned from ancient aliens, so Mr Chantry is welcome to his assumptions. Being that he was never a part of PDI, SGM,
    or CLC, I am not sure how reliable his opinions or sources may be. I listed mine, and care not for his myth of a benevolent CJ/SGM.
    More than happy to open my archive and remind those that have only perused the last few months of SGM of the depth and width of
    carnage SGM has left in there wake.

    To summate that SGM’s sum total of damage is two mishandled abuse cases, and a grumpy day for CJ, is like saying the biblical exodus
    was a dispute over kosher issues that left the deserters homeless.

  32. glad i am out
    May 13th, 2012 at 9:49 pm

    Jimmy,

    I was told by my pastor that he would tell my single-mom fiancé he would not recommend me because i disagreed w/ him that we should break off our relationship for 6 months while i was in a discipleship group w/ him while going thru a book on indwelling sin (the book itself was reason for anyone to run, not walk, from sgm, absolute heresy in light of scripture) – like CJ, he was blackmailing me – wonder where he learned that from… Her circumstances as a broke single mother were serious.. and the last thing she needed was to be left on her own… I did ask the pastor to help find shelter and sustenance for her in her circumstances should we not marry and he could find no one to help her.

    My next pastor told me i was un-teachable and “did not accept correction” simply because i chose to live 30 minutes from the church “and that that is not where our church community is” – even though 2 of the founding families of this particular church lived a few miles from where i chose to live…

    Later, this same pastor chose to excommunicate me from the body simply because i confessed to him i was not doing well – still served, still participated, no one in the church knew anything… yet i was struggling in my faith… He prescribed the usual…. read this book, do this, do that, so many minutes a morning in quiet time…etc… and when i said i was the same after a few weeks, he got frustrated and kicked me out… Our planting church intervened on my behalf… This is a typical CJ student from the PC… – i call him… a fool. He also excommunicated a new friend of mine – a young woman who was living w/ a man, and not a christian… she was interested in what she was hearing at church – still not saved… but coming.. and the Lord was leading her… and she needed caring love – only the kind a true believer can offer … But, OH !.. she was living w/ a man, while STILL NOT SAVED, so… excommunicated!! I call that pastor – a CJ student – remember the fish rots at the head – a fool! Gee, how loving is our Lord??? well, i know he is, but how ’bout those who “speak in his stead?” What impact, eternally, has this had on the young woman i have spoken of?

    The stories, just mine personally, with PRIMARY SOURCES, could go on all night!! And i know so many others who post here could tell you theirs, w/ their primary sources – but that is not good enough for you… Tell me why??? you want to call some of my primary sources?… direct abused sheep who only loved the Lord and trusted their pastors.. Call me, i may be able to arrange that – Kris will give you my email, and i will get you my number, and i will connect you to people who personally have almost all but lost their faith over the abuse… IT is REAL… no, not the only denomination to have problems – i hear you on that – but that is a weak argument to excuse the problems that DO EXIST

  33. Let My People Go
    May 13th, 2012 at 10:06 pm

    I completely believe that there is a community of people that God has drawn to this site to find truth and healing. Not everyone is going to understand what many of us have come to know is truth. The important thing is that you, Kris, have been so faithful to complete the ministry that God has given you. You had no idea what God had planned to do through you when you first posted some random thoughts about SGM years ago. I am blown away by the actual hard work of healing that has happened at this site in so many people lives. Real ministry goes on here. Recovery from abuse isn’t pretty, but it is amazing and I am so grateful for my own healing that has happened here over the last 3 years.

    I read a little bit over at Pyro Team and felt exhausted. Ugh. I didn’t even want to go back to discussions that question if abuse actually happened or whatever. This is my conclusion…they don’t understand abuse. No offense to them; not everyone understands the inner workings of abuse.

    Kris, keep doing what you do. Finish the ministry that God has given you. Your posts #24 and #74 are dead-on, especially about the shame and about the work of the Holy Spirit as Teacher and Helper. You get abuse…God has given you wisdom and compassion that He is using for His glory and for the good of His people. I am completely inspired by your faithfulness to do what you do here.

  34. BeenThere
    May 13th, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    Reading through some of the Pyro guys comments I am so thankful I came to Reformed Theology AFTER becoming a Continuationist and having a more of an experience of the Holy Spirit. What I recognize in their comments (and from my past) is when you try to approach Scripture or any spiritual subject with an Intellectual understanding ONLY. This seems to be an issue with Reformed types especially who have closed themselves off to the fulness of what the Holy Spirit could do in their lives. As I read some of the encounters of the Pharisees and Jesus I see this surface and intellectual only understanding of the Bible contrasted with an understanding that is deeper and illuminated by God’s Spirit. I’ve been where they’re at. They’ve got it all figured out in nice little neat formulas. They don’t intend to be dismissive and condescending, that’s just the position they’ve boxed themselves into.

  35. lmalone
    May 13th, 2012 at 10:30 pm

    J”immy” shares his loving concerns over at TWW quite a bit as well. He always feels he is the voice of reason (not logic mind you) to everyone.

    He is always “standing in the sted” for Mr. Mahaney and SGM. I guess Mr. Mahaney cannot speak for himself

    Before TWW, it was FBCJaxwatchdog where Jimmy (aka Seneca Griggs) was the resident apologist for mega church pastor Mac Brunson who used his personal body guard (also a city sheriff) to get subpeona’s on blogs to see who owned them.

    Jimmy cannot stand victims of any kind. That was his big beef at FBCJaxwatchdog and TWW in the early days.

    And btw, Nazi Germany is an excellent analogy for many things. How does one get a mass of people to follow a leader to the point of no return? The psychology and the tactics map to spiritual abuse in movements and churches. Do the homework.

  36. Rose
    May 13th, 2012 at 11:06 pm

    Re: #77 I don’t think that the first scenario: “An elder in a church questions the rest of the elders in a case of discipline; they call a special meeting without him, vote him off the board, remove him from membership, and announce his departure to the congregation with the explanation that they think he’s gone senile — all without saying a word to him first,” is too far from my family’s SGM experience. Thankfully, we were not members of the congregation, except that we attended regularly for a few months, and my husband was not an elder in that particular congregation, though he had been so ordained by another particular congregation of Christ’s church universal. We were prevented from entering a worship service without discussion, merely because of a pretty minor disagreement – no stirring up dissent, simply initiating a discussion of whether Christ and the Cross are interchangeable, a question easily answered in the negative by anyone who is not trying to prove himself infallible and abuse his position of authority.

  37. Kris
    May 13th, 2012 at 11:21 pm

    Well, Mr. Turk has now closed comments on that post…as well as deleted several that somehow did not meet his standards. Interestingly, all the comments disparaging the survivors and attempting to cast doubt and criticize SGM’s critics were allowed to stand.

    I think what people (myself included) have been hoping for was NOT for a conservative Christian blog to allow SGM survivors to “have their say” on a post, like Frank Turk congratulated himself for permitting over the past 36 hours. Rather, I’ve been hoping that one of these bloggers would take an open honest look at SGM and questions about SGM’s shady past with an open mind, a mind that was just a LITTLE BIT OPEN to the possibility that maybe there is validity to the things SGM’s critics have said over the past few years.

    That clearly did not happen in the comments on Mr. Turk’s post. Team Pyro was fighting hard to defend SGM and CJ and make SGM’s critics look like lying idiots.

    I didn’t sense any real open-mindedness at all.

    My only hope is that perhaps some of the silent lurkers saw what I saw.

  38. Nickname
    May 13th, 2012 at 11:30 pm

    So, Jimmy is Seneca Griggs. That explains alot. Hey, Ellie, what’s your take?

    The fish rots at the head. In the military, it is expected that the commanding officer takes the fall for what happens down the chain of command.

    Primary sources can be found on every page of this blog. The demand of someone like Jimmy/Seneca to defend oneself is, in itself, spiritual abuse. I owe you no explanation of what happened to me through the SGM chain of command. This is not a court of law. You are not judge, jury, defense attorney, prosecutor and executioner in these cases, and thank God –Thank GOD — you do not stand in the very stead of the One who said, “Come to me, ye who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” Nowhere is there an appendage that says “…if you tell your story with proven primary sources to Jimmy/aka Seneca/aka Whoever first.”

    In other words, back off, Jack. Quit kicking good people when they’re down. These people have had enough abuse without having more heaped upon them for no other reason than your own personal edification. According to my Primary Source, the Word of the God who loves you and me both, that kind of behavior doesn’t jive with James Brown OR the Golden Rule.

    Happy Mother’s Day, y’all. On this Mother’s Day, for the first time in over twenty years, not one member of my family was in attendance at an SGM church, but they were all serving the Lord in some church, somewhere, for which this mother rejoices. It took a while, but they all saw the truth of abuse in their own lives and in those around them. May it be so for the Jimmys and the Senecas and the Pyromaniacs and Charismaniacs and Cessationiacs and all other ‘iacs’.

  39. Guy
    May 13th, 2012 at 11:40 pm

    Yeah, Jimmy and Seneca are either the same person or they share a computer with the same IP address. Go figure.

  40. Defender
    May 14th, 2012 at 12:12 am

    Yes Kris, Re: #87
    My last comment there was deleted.
    Jimmy had said that C.J’s threat to expose Larry T’s son wasn’t criminal.

    CJ’s disagreement with Larry Tomzac leading to a threat to let information out about Larry’s son certainly appears manipulative and sinful; but not criminal. Telling the truth about somebody is not criminal unless you’re an employee of the C.I.A. – dryly

    6:54 AM, May 13, 2012

    I replied that Blackmail is in fact a criminal act in the United States.

    My comment was there for a while, but can no longer be found….

    (I’m glad I didn’t waste much time over there.)

  41. Bridget
    May 14th, 2012 at 1:03 am

    Jimmy and Seneca are the same person. Seneca disappeared completely and Jimmy appeared a few weeks later. It took a few comments, but Jimmy’s true colors soon came shining through!

  42. ATC
    May 14th, 2012 at 1:40 am

    Well, I got banned from Pyromaniacs. Frank even name checks me at the end.

    I really wish I had kept the comments I posted to show you all where I went wrong in Frank’s eyes. Oh well: God see it all doesn’t he….

    Btw: Is rudeness a sin?

    ATC, Bristol, UK.

  43. Henry
    May 14th, 2012 at 5:15 am

    I think what Turk & Co identify when they talk about issues with charismatics are actually issues in Christianity per se and humankind in general. The funny thing is that they use a different type of emotive and reactive terminology to that which they identify in some charismatics.Reformed, charismatic, evangelical, liberal and whatever else are actually labels that have more association with personality types than being a Christian. I would really like to see more ‘Jesus’ personality types but I guess that is unlikely at the moment. I have been reading Turk & Co and other blogs, on and off for years. Their emotions run high just like everybody else’s and they reek havoc when they don’t get what they think they should have, just like every body else. All Turk and Co are doing are putting a ‘web face’ out there; it is of no lasting value.

  44. ExClcer'sMom
    May 14th, 2012 at 5:34 am

    IMALONE, post #26, I agree 100% with you! I’m glad you posted that! Stunned, post#44, you left out ExClcer’s family. I certainly CAN trace some of my family’s experience to CJ directly, as well as those who are closely circling CJ..I dont bother with posting on such sites as Pyro, because I feel they are not wanting to ‘hear’ what I may have to post, they are simply lookign to ‘refute’. I could be wrong, perhaps, because I have never even visited the site to see it! However, Jimmy’s comments sound to me as though he may be Turk himself, and I have no interest in arguing.
    Kris, I love what you do here. You allow ‘survivors’ to vent, to express their pain..That is such an important step in healing, for one thing, but another, as each person shares their pain, others realize how they are not alone, and still others more are warned..They can recognize the symptoms and run before they are burned, so to speak.
    I even realized this with speaking to my still young daughters..I used to tell them, “Do not let anyone touch you in a part of your body that is covered by a bathing suit”..Now, I tell them, “Do not let anyone touch you ANYWHERE that makes you feel creepy. They are not allowed to touch your body at all without your permission! As as matter of fact, ‘arms length’ is an acceptable personal space..feel free to politely ask anyone not to invade your personal space.” I dont even stop there! I tell them, “If anyone even makes you feel creepy-that is often your gut feeling-listen to it, and tell me-you do not need a better reason at all to avoid anyone.” Children are often told to ignore such a protective feeling of themselves-I try to encourage my children to recognize those warning signs and give credence to them. They dont need proof, because by the time they have ‘proof’, damage is done.
    Now, I recognize that protecting a child from abuse, and warning others about spiritual abuse, etc are a little different, but Kris, I think you do a perfectly fantastic job of allowing a site to warn others of spiritual abuse! Thanks!

  45. Ellie
    May 14th, 2012 at 6:25 am

    Nickname – Yep. Senecca = Jimmy. Wish the real Jimmy that used to post here would show up. Eh.

  46. Ellie
    May 14th, 2012 at 6:33 am

    Kris – if there was to be real discussion, they would’ve opened up the post on a Monday not on the weekend and kept it open longer. Only 36 hours? I just happened to read your post last evening & went over to read.

    ATC – you were so mild.

  47. Kris
    May 14th, 2012 at 7:34 am

    Yeah, although they have already set it up so they can mock those of us who think the topic got an unfair shake, Mr. Turk totally did stack the deck. If Pyro is a typical blog, its moderators know the readership drops significantly on the weekends, particularly since the routine is to post excerpts from Spurgeon rather than anything new. Further, several comments were deleted – and they were ONLY the ones that attempted to point out SGM’s issues. ALL of Jimmy’s/Seneca’s comments were allowed to remain. Anything defending SGM and CJ remains…no matter how it was written and no matter what was said. And now, of course, further mention of the topic is forbidden.

    Like I said, Mr. Turk can pat himself on the back till he bruises, but he did NOT actually do what many of us have been hoping would happen – he did NOT approach the topic of SGM with an even partially open mind. His opinions have already formed, and the good Mr. Chantry was there to respond in SGM’s defense and mock the notions of spiritual abuse and “survivors.”

    If anyone over there wonders why people suspect some sort of conspiracy to protect SGM, all they need to do is examine the parameters of the discussion Mr. Turk set up this past weekend…as well as the comments he deleted…as well as the total closed-mindedness on display.

  48. ExClcer'sMom
    May 14th, 2012 at 7:53 am

    I have heard that when lightening is about to strike close to someone, that person may feel their hair or head tingle a little..Now, I only know that 3rd party, but I have heard it from a few 3rd party people, and even if I only heard it from one 3rd party person, if I got stuck in a storm, and felt any tingling at all, I would move from wherever I was!
    My point being that, Kris, I appreciate how you allow all relevant perspectives, as long as they are presented respectfully. You allow each person the responsibility that should be theirs, to seek, discern, and decide God’s Truth for their lives. Even God Himself is not a Dictator-how dare any of us think we should be!
    Thanks, for being strong enough in your convictions to NOT let the whining or criticism of other people cause you to waver!

  49. Stunned
    May 14th, 2012 at 8:45 am

    exCLCersMom,

    Last night I suddenly thought to myself, “Did I include exCLCer and fam on that list?!” Ha ha, glad you stepped forward

  50. ExClcer'sMom
    May 14th, 2012 at 9:41 am

    LOL, Stunned! I totally understand! There get to be so many known victims, it becomes harder to list everyone (for our finite minds anyway). The more ‘short sighted’ people may think ‘out of mind, out of equation’, and unless something can immediately be recalled, along with solid proof, something just isn’t so..but we know better..just because one doesn’t remember it all, or everyone involved, does not mean it didn’t happen. You know that, I know that, God knows it all…

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