Frank from the Pyromaniacs blog has put up a post that permits commentary about Sovereign Grace Ministries.
I haven’t yet decided if I have the courage to join that discussion. Frankly, I’ve found the interactions over there pretty intimidating, even just as a lurker. I’d strongly encourage anyone who chooses to participate to abide by the established rules, work hard to contribute concise and focused points, and do your best to keep your cool.
May 14th, 2012 at 9:51 am
It’s interesting to note the comments Mr. Turk ended up deleting. Here is one, submitted by “Year of the Jeep,” which was later removed:
May 14th, 2012 at 10:04 am
As I read that, I remembered a time when I told my CGL about concerns I had (with my now ex-husband) that I could not quite place..well, some I had specifics, but I also shared how the word, “pervert” would come into my head about him, yet I had no specifics to really point to a reason for that word, but it was nagging me..I was told, “It is being handled”..No, it wasn’t being handled-my little girl had to be the one to ‘handle it’! The anger wells up in me when I think of those things. It is not an anger of ‘unforgiveness’, it is an anger for righteousness sake-because they still do the same thing! When someone asked a pastor at CLC about mr A’s involvement with children, they were assured that he was being held accountable-that he had to make sure that anyone whose child was in his presence knew about his past..yet I know for a fact that was not true! How many lives have to be so negatively affected before people accept the truth?
May 14th, 2012 at 10:04 am
He deleted one that was first hand experience that was rather mild. It’s like saying we don’t believe you, unless CJ or another pastor comes confirms that this happened to you.
What was the point of them doing that post?
He also put that post up on Mother’s Day weekend . . . because everyone is so enamored with their blog that they would spend Mother’s Day weekend looking at it? Or they really didn’t want feedback?
May 14th, 2012 at 10:45 am
@ kris
Did you read that Idiot Frank Turks last post,
(With that, there you go: SGM survivors have had their say, and then some, on a popular Conservative bog.)
What a Jerk lol!!!!!!!!!!!
I am so glad sometimes that Christ will be the final judge on this subject. Because if it was left up to those jokers i would be frying in hell.
May 14th, 2012 at 10:59 am
Yeah, that last comment was downright deceptive. The only people who truly “had their say” were Mr. Chantry, Mr. Turk, and anyone willing to criticize SGM’s critics.
May 14th, 2012 at 12:24 pm
There was a time when pastoral ministry was about the care of souls. I’m not sure when that changed. Maybe it got burned up when the Pyromaniacs set the world on fire.
May 14th, 2012 at 1:45 pm
ATC,
I found none of your comments offensive, and I saw a few BEFORE he deleted them.
Pyro conducted another kangaroo court.
That’s all.
May 14th, 2012 at 2:20 pm
Kris 105 I wouldn’t put be surprised if CJ has asked reformed comrades, near and far, to support him in every way possible, particularly online, since that is the forum he most fears.
No matter what, CJ will not come forward himself. He won’t compose a letter to explain his position or intent. And, he relies entirely on others to speak for him like puppets.
It is a strange world CJ lives in but he has always been like this. He prefers to converse with other pastors rather than the flock and he prefers to tell the flock what to think, from a pulpit, not face-to-face where he might be challenged. He likely only talks candidly to with family and a few close advisors. He also speaks with RBD’s but I hardly think he is close friends with any of them.
Sadly, he hasn’t changed in any noticeable way since the late 70′s, when I first met him. Even in his 20′s he exhibited the same cowardly traits.
May 14th, 2012 at 3:02 pm
As I said, in #1, utterly predictable, though also revealing in some ways. I’m afraid to those without a heavy Reformed background, much of that discussion, and especially the things on which it fixated, just seems bizarre. But after 20 years of experience in and with Reformed, Neo-Reformed, Quasi-Reformed, and Pseudo-Reformed churches, I think I could have scripted it (it is still bizarre, though).
The reason it was a futile debate was not only because it was phoney-baloney to begin with, but because of a series of specific underlying ideologies which determine the responses (and eventual outcome) pretty much automatically. I feel a bit of a soapbox coming on, so I think I’ll do this one at a time, and only keep going if anyone is actually interested in my prattling.
Reason #1: The Charismatics did it
This one was right out there for everyone to see, and supported by a number of the approved comments. I think of it this way:
I am not denying that a mode of church government may have specific consequences, or that one may be closer to a NT model than another, but there is a narrative here that is easily falsifiable. SGM is unique in its blending of elements of Reformed theology and Charismatic practice, and the authority structure is rather obviously prone to misuse, but all of the documented SGM abuses have been occurring for decades across the Reformed community in Baptist, Presbyterian, and Independent churches. None of these churches have an apostolate, nor do they believe in contemporary revelatory gifts. But somehow they have still managed to persecute, abuse, and grievously wound Christ’s sheep.
FACT: No system of church government is ultimately any better than the people who are in it.
This was true in the NT, where Paul himself(!) had to contend with people using the ministry to promote themselves and denigrate his work and character, churches that were unable to maintain an adherence to the Gospel, and churches that seemed to veer wildly between libertine-ism and cruel zealotry. It is still true today.
The argument that all the problems were the predictable result of charismaticism is ultimately a red herring, and demonstrably false. But it is a comforting narrative for non-charismatics, as it safely places the blame well away from home for any problems which they are forced to admit may exist.
More later…
May 14th, 2012 at 3:15 pm
Thanks, Defender. I thought so too!
ATC, Bristol, UK.
:Approve:
May 14th, 2012 at 3:24 pm
I don’t know that SGM leadership is smart enough to have planned this out but I find it interesting what the last months have achieved.
1. Bringing AoR in to mediate allowed them to hear grievances through a filter--I have no doubt that AoR reported what they learned from their interviews faithfully, but it removed SGM leadership from the vulnerability of confrontation with the emotions and body language of those who have been harmed by them. Makes the report rather sterile, in that sense--they don’t have to smell, taste or touch the consequences of their actions. At the same time, they can say “we listened and will follow their recommendations; see, we did our part”. Evading these confrontations seems cowardly to me; does it seem that way to others as well?
2. The AoR report enables others who want to defend SGM leadership, whether solicited or not, the coverage to say, essentially, that all is well, there is much fault on both sides, and SGM is sincerely trying to respond in humility, blah, blah, blah… The opening of the pyro blog to comments, though edited, provides more cover in the realm that “we tried to understand, but the response was incoherent or sinful”--nothing to see here, move along.
I don’t think things from the SGM leadership perspective could have gone any better--
May 14th, 2012 at 3:27 pm
Bad Dog -
Interesting stuff. Keep going.
I’d say, though, that while I agree with you that the abuses seen in SGM are not necessarily unique to SGM, I think SGM is unusual because its culture was so homogenous for so many years. SGM’s pastors were taught that their holiness was in proportion to how well they followed (copied) their own leaders. It was a well-known little joke that if CJ mentioned at the Pastors Conference a particular book he was reading, there’d be guys lined up afterward to buy that same book. Many pastors also were quick to follow CJ and the other leaders with lifestyle choices. Things were a little more loosey-goosey at some of the adopted churches, and at some of the newer churches further from Gaithersburg, but because of the way SGM did its church planting, there would usually be a core of people with connections to another well-established SGM church who could transplant SGM’s unique culture to the new city.
The homogenous culture has contributed to making pastors lead in similar ways -- which includes responding to conflict in similar ways. Yes, things are now changing, because few SGM pastors want to be associated with this silliness, now that it’s been talked about openly. But for decades, rigidly copying one another -- and particularly the guys at the top -- was a way of life for SGM pastors, especially those who wanted to be recognized as very humble and very godly.
That’s why it was uniquely easy for the authoritarianism to manifest in such similar ways in churches spread out all over the country (and even in other countries like the UK).
May 14th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
Defender. Just wanted to add more thanks and say that your kind words meant a lot.
I was feeling a bit nonplussed about it today, actually. I get special mention from Frank at the end as if I’d really been an awful commentator who blasted his way through his rules in an ungracious manner. I’ll cut and paste what he wrote so please forgive the spelling and grammar errors:
- -- - -- It has already gotten “allancaire” banned because ther are no rules he’ll abide by to speak about this subject — except to be personally offended that someone thinks his opinions is not good. -- - --
I think the first comment he deleted from me was when I took exception to his following words directed at me:
- -- - you have yet to present a single comment of substance which advances this topic in any way but down the sewer hole of sideways accusations and emotionalism. -- - --
Aaah well. My very first words on the thread had hoped that the comments would be useful for the Church. Not many of them were. And, as Frank says at the end, ‘The subject, and the thread, is closed.’
ATC, Bristol, UK.
May 14th, 2012 at 3:42 pm
ATC -
I agree with what Defender said. I didn’t really see how you had violated Frank’s discussion rules.
I know the Pyro guys have talked before (somewhat defensively, in my opinion) about their “tone” and how there’s nothing, absolutely nothing, to the accusations that they aren’t very nice to people with whom they disagree. But there was a level of cantankerous eagerness to prove SGM’s critics wrong that really did not come across as kind or loving or gentle or patient at all. I like a spirited discussion as much as the next person and don’t even mind arguing sometimes. But I wonder why they (Mr. Turk and Mr. Chantry in particular) exuded such scorn for people who tried to explain what made SGM dysfunctional.
May 14th, 2012 at 3:45 pm
ATC, I have NEVER experienced your writings to be rude or emotional in any way. (My heavens, can’t he tell that you are English?!) I have only known you to communicate in an extremely gracious, loving manner. I am shocked that you were accused of any such rudeness.
Please, be encouraged that God sees, even when man cannot.
May 14th, 2012 at 3:47 pm
To be honest, maybe one of my comments DID break his rules. I remember writing something along the lines of ‘Has that broken the rules? It’s hard to not break the rules when talking about this!’
I really wish I’d been more like Brent and cut and pasted my comments to Word!
It’s also amazing how little of the actual commentating on the Pyro thread is about Brent’s primary source documentation and what that reveals.
And so to bed….
Regards all,
ATC, Bristol, UK.
May 14th, 2012 at 4:05 pm
Persona #108 and Kris #112, I can absolutely verify what you are saying b/c I worked at PDI/SGM. Persona, you said: “He prefers to converse with other pastors rather than the flock and he prefers to tell the flock what to think, from a pulpit, not face-to-face where he might be challenged. He likely only talks candidly to with family and a few close advisors.”
Yeah, and even the employees of SGM, he might (rarely) come into contact w/, and even then, he never looks you in the eye, he just squints and looks above your head. That man has some serious issues.
And Kris talked about how if CJ recommended a book, folks would line up right after a conference to buy it. Yeppers! I used to work in the Resource Center and helped w/ many conference resource tables, and before any conference, I had to get CJ’s “list” so I could order the books and have plenty of his recommendations on hand b/c they would move like hotcakes. It was definitely one of the many things we would all “chuckle” about. CJ and his funny little ways. Constant change is here to stay (b/c it’s no big deal to have my sheeple’s spiritual experience subjected to the roller coaster of my whims….wheeeee!!!).
May 14th, 2012 at 4:50 pm
Reading that blog yesterday was truly like an experience in Cognitive Dissonance Land. As ThatBadDog said, it was phoney baloney and futile. “If we say it is so, then it is so. It doesn’t have to make any sense in the real world, just as long as we can throw out some “biblical” sounding reasoning & call it Truth. Same kind of thing we experienced in SGM -- you sit there stunned because what they are saying just swirls around your head like some theatrical fog and has no basis in reality.
Stunned said: “God sees…” -- for which I am SO glad!! He is our anchor, our fortress, our strong tower.
May 14th, 2012 at 5:16 pm
I think you can sum up Pyro’s sentiments in two sentences.
“You went to a Charismatic church. You got what you deserved.”
May 14th, 2012 at 6:02 pm
What I find ironic is that when asked, a couple of the Pyro guys have acknowledged that they are CJ’s admirers. They like him.
Even CJ’s Charismatic roots, which would normally garner much scorn and loathing from them, along with great suspicion, don’t seem to give them any pause.
It’s bizarre.
May 14th, 2012 at 6:35 pm
ATC -
“Welcome” to Turkland. I went through pretty much what you did with him, except that it continued through emails and even Tweeter. He seems to open up a little, then he shuts you off when you have broken whatever new rule he just made up. This time he did it with a whole group of people. My comments were deleted also, natch.
Despite the transparent tactic of posting on Saturday, I agree with others here that just acknowledging, on a blog like that, that there is a problem, gives it (the problem) some legitimacy. If so, this would be inadvertent on Turk’s part.
It’s amazing to me that he could chalk it all up to Charismaticism, which, as a side issue, I saw little of when I attended CLC. I am a cessationist myself, but I don’t think all dysfunction in a church can be traced to doctrines, whatever they are. There does exist such a thing as “the human factor.” People are not doctrine-machines (though some seem to be). I would rather be in a healthy charismatic church than an unhealthy non-charismatic one.
I’ve been more personally involved in this type of “where there’s so much smoke, there must be NO fire” situation before. They are reminders that our warfare is spiritual.
May 14th, 2012 at 8:12 pm
I noticed other logical inconsistencies in the way the Pyro folks approached SGM’s/CJ’s issues…
There was, first of all, debate about whether or not SGM even has issues. Yet nobody was permitted to discuss the blackmail charges revealed in Brent’s documents as evidence that CJ had done wrong. (In their thinking, that would be “slander.”) Furthermore, first-person accounts like the one from “Year of the Jeep” were also inadmissable and removed as soon as Mr. Turk could get his fingers on the delete button.
I also noticed that the conversation swung from a tacit acknowledgement that SGM did have problems, but “so did everyone else,” as well as, “Y’all just suck because you’re Charismatic, so what did you expect?” and then (my loose paraphrase of) the really kind zinger from Mr. Chantry, “All I’m hearing is complaints from people who didn’t want to be led,” which was a denial of SGM’s problems.
Which is it? Does SGM have problems that are unique? Some of the commentary would seem to indicate so, particularly Mr. Turk’s statements about how SGM’s problems are all connected to Charismatic theology. But then you have Mr. Chantry’s assertion that there were no actual survivors, just whiners who didn’t want to submit to a pastor’s leading.
I think these guys are trapped in their thinking. I wrote the following in an email just a little while ago:
May 14th, 2012 at 8:40 pm
I went and read the post and the first eight or ten comments. Didn’t go back. Not going back.
I’m so sad to hear how it all played out. So sad that those men were so wickedly rude and unkind.
To them I say: If you are sons of God, I am your little sister. But you hate me already. Before I have spoken a word, you despise me. You have aimed a clout at the side of my head.
But our Lord put His hand over me so that your blow missed.
(And He will put balm on the bruised ones too.)
May 14th, 2012 at 8:57 pm
For those who hadn’t already seen (and forgive me if it’s already been posted — I’d not noticed it), more from Nathan Sasser on apostles. I take this as a possible window into the current thought-process among multiple SGM Polity Committee members:
https://ourbackpages.wordpress.com/2012/05/04/delegating-the-churchs-mission-j-h-thornwell-and-the-future-of-sgm/
https://ourbackpages.wordpress.com/2012/05/04/are-all-apostles-eyewitnesses-of-the-resurrection/
May 14th, 2012 at 9:10 pm
Ugh… I don’t know if you can chalk it up to burying my head in the sand or what but I couldnt even bring myself to look at this pyro kangaroo court post. I figured it would trigger my justice violation alarm, just like so many other things revolving around sgm. Is it wrong to want Jesus to come through and drive sgm out with a whip?
May 14th, 2012 at 9:28 pm
When i think of C.J. i honestly cry.
I cry for the churches and for my family…
I cry for the board of directors and for all who have been hurt.
It is truly a heart breaking situation for all…….
But somewhere God is in the midst of it all.
I love C.J. like a huge spiritual father.
I guess that’s why it hurts so much mr turk you sad little man. C.J. was a hero to me.
When i thought of C.J. i was like now thats who i want to be like
Only to find out that i wasnt gifted to serve in anything other then being a usher.
I was also asked not to share the gospel or what God did in my life for their fear of me not understanding the Gospel.
So how do you respond to that Mr Turk….. Thought so, how would you like for your hero’s pastors tell you your not good enough.
They stopped my heart and laughed so sorry if im bitter………
May 14th, 2012 at 9:39 pm
YofJ via Kris: Spot on. Your testimony is that of many others.- Recently shared a trial that I am presently going through with the Young Guns of PC. Was congratulated that I was able to see my sin in the situation. Other pointed out that I still have more/better than I deserve. Other shared his story that he though was similar to mine… . Thank you Jesus that I have Your Word and Holy Spirit for counsel…your young shepherds are falling short.
May 14th, 2012 at 10:46 pm
I know this is off the current topic but some months ago someone posted all of the ways that wives were taken, found, met, captured (whatever) in scripture. I forgot to copy it. Could someone post that again please? Thx
May 14th, 2012 at 11:22 pm
Sea change #125: I wish that All The Time. XD I really do. Whenever someone talks about “gossip” or “sinful attitudes,” or “pride” I smugly remember that Jesus wasn’t exactly polite and institutionally approved when he rebuked the Pharisees OR (my favorite) drove the merchants out of the temple. With a whip. Yesu, I LOVE how kickA you are. ^-^ Just saying.
May 15th, 2012 at 6:37 am
This whole thing seems surreal sometimes. I mean, I have great respect for people who are genuinely committed to aligning their lives with what the Bible would establish as God’s standards for conduct. I would consider myself one of them.
And yet sometimes it feels like the cries of “Unbiblical!” are just an excuse, an excuse to not deal with reality. I mean, come on -- on Saturday, Mr. Chantry devoted a whole lot of words to explaining why in his view, the information contained in Brent’s documents and other information about SGM’s issues was “unbiblical” for Christians to know. He kept asking people to find instances in the Bible where we are mandated to know other churches’ business. I saw at least a couple of people post comments that gave examples from the Bible of leaders and churches being called out for negative reasons by name/location…but Mr. Chantry kept arguing that those situations weren’t applicable to the SGM debacle.
I have to say, I just did not understand why this question -- of whether or not SGM’s internal problems are other Christians’ business -- looms so large in Mr. Chantry’s mind, and why he seems so determined to believe that they’re not. Maybe I’m just not as spiritual as he is. But it strikes me as crazy that a “biblical mandate” to address SGM’s issues is what he got hung up on. For one thing, isn’t it kind of a no-brainer that we’re probably not going to find a situation in the Bible that will be a perfect parallel -- because denominations (or de facto quasi-denominations that insist on calling themselves “families of churches”) did not exist in New Testament times? I doubt Mr. Chantry gets so hung up on finding “biblical mandates” for a lot of other activities he engages in…like driving a car, or having health insurance, or, even, blogging. Why the sudden obsession with what is by definition going to be a fruitless search, hunting for a “biblical mandate” for something that is not specifically addressed in the Bible because it’s a relatively new set of specific circumstances?
What I think is even more bizarre, though, is that this hang-up about whether or not to allow ourselves to know about SGM’s issues and whether or not we ought to care about them and discuss them misses a larger point, which is that if you’re going to speak about SGM’s positive attributes in a public forum, you then bear responsibility for what people do with that information. In other words, if you willfully present a one-sided positive picture of something, without a corresponding concern to investigate and inform your audience of the potential negative, you might very well end up causing people to use your information to put themselves in situations where the negative aspects of the thing can hurt them.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that maybe SGM’s problems would not be Mr. Chantry’s business -- maybe he actually would not have a “biblical mandate” to concern himself with them -- if he weren’t associating himself with bloggers who present SGM in otherwise positive lights. But he does. The Pyro guys do. They write about conferences where CJ preaches, and they speak well of the messages CJ gives. By all indications, they seem to think SGM is a great church organization…and it’s inevitable that people in their audience are going to act on the information they present.
In a peculiar way, they have already made SGM’s issues their business, “biblical mandate” or no “biblical mandate.” They have already waded into the topic of SGM because of the way they otherwise promote SGM, by acting like SGM is just another great denomination and CJ is just another great church leader and preacher.
I dunno. Maybe I’m just not as spiritual as these Pyro guys. But getting all hung up on whether or not there’s a “biblical mandate” to address the negative, the concerns, seems like a no-brainer when you’re already using your influence to talk about the positive and promote the thing.
May 15th, 2012 at 7:02 am
Hi Kris,
It’s like using the Regulative Principle for something that (*gasp*) isn’t SPECIFICALLY in the Bible! Apart from the rather massive thematic issues of love, grace, righteous judgment, etc.
I was reminded yesterday of the critics of our Lord who were so concerned in getting the written Law correct that they missed it:
John 7:24 -- ‘Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.’
ATC, Bristol, UK.
May 15th, 2012 at 8:24 am
Don’t know if you saw my post or not above, but CJ is speaking at a conference put on by MacArthur’s church in just a few weeks.
Can’t help but believe some of the behavior can be attributed to that.
May 15th, 2012 at 9:20 am
Getting so hung up on the details of the law while ignoring the big picture just strikes me as a modern example of acting like a Pharisee. Jesus sees people in pain and heals them. Pharisees say
“No no no, that was an unbiblical way of doing it!”
Now we have wounded and hurting people coming from a bad system, and all these people can talk about is how the approach to exposing things is unbiblical. At least to them. They can’t see past their laws to consider the evidence of wreckage before them.
Common sense, and the heart of God would tell you that healing someone of their pain or stopping the progression of death and disease is a good thing. But when you have your nose buried so far in your obsession with doctrine and systems and rules, while not balancing it with mercy and compassion, things start to look differently. God is perfectly balanced in justice and mercy. We, obviously, struggle with this!
May 15th, 2012 at 9:51 am
Quote:
“Don’t know if you saw my post or not above, but CJ is speaking at a conference put on by MacArthur’s church in just a few weeks.”
Tell me it ain’t so! Which conference is this?
The charisma C.J. Mahaney possesses is so strong as to make one wonder how deep the spiritual darkness is behind it.
I got to the Team Pyro blog too late to post, since it was closed down. Not that my input would have helped anyone there think more deeply about looking behind the curtain, but as a former member of the Worldwide Church of God and having visited SGM in the past, I know a cult when I see one.
If John MacArthur falls into this tomfoolery, then all I can say is the time is overdue to seriously hunker down in our Bibles with contrite spirits in much prayer -- for the Lord is our Shepherd and Him alone.
May 15th, 2012 at 10:22 am
Julie Anne #10- If you are still reading…I quickly read over your comment a couple of days ago and was very surprised but didn’t think about it much further…THEN…this morning on my way to work our local Wash. DC radio station mentioned your story (this is a non christian top 40 radio station, most listen to station in the area). I was definitely taken back that it had become national. All I can say is.. I’m praying for you. You are brave.
May 15th, 2012 at 10:30 am
For those who haven’t seen, 9 Marks most recent theme is “Apostolic Pastors”. Wonder what Mr. Turk and Mr. Chantry think of this nomenclature.
http://www.9marks.org/journal/wanted-apostolic-pastors
I expect some of the articles on church associations will influence the polity committee, but Dever is still Baptist, so those associations carry no authority over the local church.
May 15th, 2012 at 10:38 am
A lot of the Team Pyro guys came out of Independent Baptist Fundamentalism. They know the game and at times have complained about it (when they were the victim). It is wrong to think CJ just has the wool pulled over their eyes. They have seen it all before and should recognize what is going on.
May 15th, 2012 at 11:45 am
Kris has it exactly right. Promoting a certain church, group, or teacher, as the Reformed blogs do, as conferences and book recommendations do, rightfully opens the door for believers most familiar with said group or teacher to share serious problems, terrible experiences and concerns about that church or teacher’s doctrine or practice. How can it not be so? Not only does cooperation and promotion of SGM and Mahaney open that door, but it is the strategic purpose of SGM to influence the broader Reformed world with their way of doing things. There is a moral and spiritual duty to examine any such teacher or group in the light of Scripture. There is an obligation to reveal problems in doctrine and practice.
The only biblical requirement needed for this is the hearty approval and approbation of Luke when he called the Bereans “noble-minded” because they examined the Scriptures daily “to see if these things were so.” Solid churches do not fear their people being Bereans, and asking questions, and making proper, gracious, and biblically informed judgments about their teachers, their doctrine, and their practice. Every Christian has a right to raise concerns and ask questions of leadership, even publicly, and they are owed a gracious hearing and a charitable, biblical response.
My spiritual formation took place at John MacArthur’s church. He baptized me. One thing I always appreciated back then (decades ago now) was the way John MacArthur had open mic sessions when he answered any questions people had. There was no sorting, or pre-screening. It was people to pastor. I don’t remember him ever suggesting that a question was out of line, or inappropriate.
The Grace Community Church I have known is a fine, Bible-centered church. Sure, there is a tendency to let MacArthur have his way about everything. In doing that they have gone off-center a few times over the years…got caught up in fads that they later completely repudiated. It happens when you have a strong person at the top. But there is something self-correcting there…a little more openness. MacArthur one-on-one is a very humble and gracious man.
I think the TeamPyro guys should think about why there isn’t a Grace Community Survivor’s blog. Grace has seen thousands come and go over the long years. MacArthur has been controversial in some circles for his theology. He has plenty of detractors. His reach is global…much bigger than Mahaney’s. It’s a large church so there is bureaucracy and gaps in ministry. People get dissatisfied. The church practices church discipline steadily and regularly. But no “Grace Community Survivors.” Why not?
I think because with all the church’s faults, there is accountability, and a self-correcting openness there. Pastors don’t typically exceed their sphere of authority. There is a tendency to not go beyond Scripture, or take stands on things that do go beyond Scripture. And if MacArthur does do that from the pulpit, as he does sometimes, people can disagree openly.
All that to say TeamPyro should realize the difference between GCC and abusive churches. They should see that the SGM blogs are serious, and reflect real problems. They should be passionately concerned about spiritual abuse, no matter where it occurs, and at least show genuine sympathy in Christ’s love for it’s victims. There are few ministry issues more important than the abuse of authority.
Sorry for the length of this…I am quite disappointed in the TeamPyro boys.
May 15th, 2012 at 12:13 pm
Sea Change, post 133 was very good. Thank you for sharing it.
Julie Ann, I am not aware of any way to discover your blog or your story. Would you, please, share it with us?
As to having to have a biblical mandate to do something, I see no biblical mandate to use electricity or zippers. But just because I can’t find a biblical mandate for it, doesn’t mean it is wrong. It isn’t up to me to judge whether or how God is leading someone else.
May 15th, 2012 at 12:34 pm
Stunned -
The Wartburg Watch has the story at http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/05/14/pastor-makes-international-news-by-suing-blogging-critic-is-john-macarthurs-church-involved/ Also, there is a follow-up on today’s post there.
Concerning Tom Chantry, we have to remember that he is a pastor, and that the 11th Commandment for some pastors is: Thou shalt not discuss the activities of the leaders of your church. It’s even less tolerable for them when it goes public.
At the dysfunctional congregation I used to attend, there is now the inevitable Bible study about gossip, tale-bearing, unproductive talk, etc. Not that these are not sins, but often the motive is to get members to shut up.
I think the “C-word” (cult) is partly behind the fear of Reformed leaders who circle the wagons around CJ and SGM. The merest possibility that cult-like practices may be occurring in an ostensibly Reformed church is, I think, intolerable to them -- maybe more so to them than to leaders of other denominations.
May 15th, 2012 at 12:38 pm
Stunned, here is the link to Julie Anne’s blog. Click on her name on her # 10 post.
http://bgbcsurvivors.blogspot.com/
May 15th, 2012 at 12:58 pm
as i read Kris #101 post, im realizing right off the bat that New York SGM is different. hm.
May 15th, 2012 at 1:02 pm
Julie Anne’s story was reported yesterday by Fox News online (perhaps via TV as well?).
May 15th, 2012 at 1:09 pm
Trish,
The conference CJ is speaking in California at the end of June is called Resolved.
http://www.resolved.org/
It is put on by Grace Community Church.
May 15th, 2012 at 3:20 pm
Great post, El Pastor at 138. Thanks for your opinion which seem insightful and based on experience.
Apart from his charismatic book, I’ve greatly profited from everything I’ve ever read from MacArthur. He was interviewed here http://webmedia.gty.org/sermons/High/90-371.mp3 on 40 years of ministry and he was thoroughly interesting and personable. When my wife and I honeymooned in the USA back in 2000 we visited Vineyard in the morning and Grace church in the evening!
The ‘Da Gifts’ piece of the MacArthur/Pyro-pie seems a shame, but then I switch on GOD TV and look at some of the nonsense and think ‘Good grief…’
It makes it all the more disappointing to see Mahaney and him sharing a platform at yet-another-massive-American-conference. (Only a bit jealous here in secular UK).
Could some of you Christians over there forget the conferences and come across here to be missionaries? Please?!?
ATC, Bristol, UK
May 15th, 2012 at 3:47 pm
I do know a little bit about this Mr. Chantry. Mind you, I have had very little contact with the man himself, but I was in a church he had been the pastor of. I arrived there maybe 6 months after he left. From being there I know there were families and individuals in the church that had been hurt deeply. His was not a good parting. Although a small church, many in that church were hurt and working through some very difficult things for years after his tenure.
The church was a part of RBCA; Reformed Baptist Churches of America. Now, I know and love one pastor of a church that is a part of that group, and I am thankful for the time I was under his leadership. The problem, however, is that at least in that group, there is an elitism. I believe that group idolizes education to such an extent and in such a manner that, in general, has led to a very unhealthy view and pride in having correct doctrine. One friend put it this way, “Reformed Baptists have their theology right, but the refuse to be happy about it.”
Any how, I am not surprised that “Pyros” stated that the problems come from being charismatic. As if believing in the gifts today is what makes people emotional. Even Reformed Baptists are emotional and are not all neat and tidy when it comes to living life with others(this should go without saying). However, their declaration, I believe, gives a glimpse into the mindset of at least some (if not most)of these guys.
I have to go…I’ll finish later.
May 15th, 2012 at 5:09 pm
Thank you for helping me with the links!
May 15th, 2012 at 6:05 pm
Mr. New York -- I HOPE your church is different than the ones listed in #101. But please note that the gentleman Kris was quoting had been in not less than THREE different SGM churches. Our family has been in 2 different ones, with intimate knowledge of a third. And that gentleman could have been posting all of that and more, if he was in the two where we had membership.
So I hope your congregation has Bible Study groups!
I hope your pastors receive real accountability from members! (there’s one big way to test this) But I doubt that the polity is really and truly different, since CJ is completely in charge of that. And polity and corruption are the two problems that seem to be so universally present if you know how and where to look.
May 15th, 2012 at 7:27 pm
Thank you. It’s been crazy -- multiple interviews each day. Please pray for my strength. God has used my lawsuit to become a platform for the topic of spiritual abuse. My blog used to average 250-400 hits per day. Yesterday 18K, today 15K. Crazy! I am now getting so many private stories sent to me. Just what happened to me when I came here is happening to others as they are reading my story and the story of others -- people are identifying with the stories. The bottom line is that spiritual abuse is rampant and we need to educate others.
my blog bgbcsurvivors.blogspot.com
May 15th, 2012 at 7:33 pm
I know EXACTLY what you’re describing. I find it fascinating that so many men with issues do similar.
People need to observe adults’ behavior similar to the way educators observe children’s and suspect possible ADHD/ADD/Autism/LD/etc. I can’t tell you how many men I’ve met in my lifetime who act similar to CJ and ended up being a narcissist, etc. And please understand…I’m NOT comparing such children with the likes of a narcissist -- just using it as an example that when certain behaviors/symptoms present themselves there’s a good chance something’s going on.
I don’t understand how sharp individuals like some of the reformed big dogs miss the obvious “symptoms.” And it’s not just them. The church is notorious for overlooking such in their leadership.
The church’s discernment should be keener than that of the world’s. We have the Holy Spirit!