Frank from the Pyromaniacs blog has put up a post that permits commentary about Sovereign Grace Ministries.
I haven’t yet decided if I have the courage to join that discussion. Frankly, I’ve found the interactions over there pretty intimidating, even just as a lurker. I’d strongly encourage anyone who chooses to participate to abide by the established rules, work hard to contribute concise and focused points, and do your best to keep your cool.
May 21st, 2012 at 3:58 pm
Kris #250…Where’s the “good posting” emoticon when you need it?!
May 21st, 2012 at 5:27 pm
I agree -- excellent thoughts Kris #250!
*****
Something that has irked me before and I don’t remember if I mentioned this -- is the question about CLC withdrawing its funding to SGM and suggesting that the collateral damage would be the SGM employees.
To me that smacks of a great confusion over serving and working for a ministry. If someone has lost faith in that ministry, to insinuate that one is adversely affecting its employees as an arguement or excuse or and accusation … is downright disgusting. Isn’t the point of donations for [anything] for the cause it is championing? In this case… the witness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
I’m not giving in order to keep X people employed. SGM is NOT a mercy-employment ministry for the middle-class. That kind of sentiment needs to be thrown out the window, it is too dangerously reminiscent of the vendors at the temple… whom Jesus confronted (to put it lightly).
And yet those employees who are being “left behind” and have nary an idea what to do with their lives now … are they going to imply that their unemployment is the fault of the departing SGM hive mind? I wouldn’t think so.
May 21st, 2012 at 6:20 pm
rorschach
Good point that one or a group shouldn’t feel compelled to continue giving to a group to “save” employees jobs. On top of that, it was pointed out that SGM has significant reserves and if they had to let people go they could give these employees nice severance packages similar to what C.J.’s son in laws were given.
May 21st, 2012 at 6:55 pm
Persona…I couldn’t agree with you more. Yes, this is not a church plant but a church split (albeit a small one). I was walking into CLC yesterday and was greeted on their leaving by Mike Bradshaw’s parents. They’re there every Sunday serving in children’s ministry (of all places…where their son was the head). They did not follow to Solid Rock. This is splitting up families and 30 year friendships. It is really hurting a lot of people.
May 21st, 2012 at 8:03 pm
excellent post (#250) Kris! The move is a split, an angry man leaving in a huff and taking his “guys” with him. I got in trouble for saying “your guys” to a pastor once but sheesh, it looks like he’s got his cronies and so what’s the big deals with telling THE TRUTH about the move? The people who are following to KY would go with him to China if that was where he (cj) needed to go for better real estate anyway!
Rorshach -- I’m confused, did CLC withdraw its contributions to SGM or not?
I thought they did.
May 21st, 2012 at 9:04 pm
defended 255: CLC is currently with holding funding to SGM on an interim basis. i expect we’ll hear more at the big family meeting on June 28.
May 21st, 2012 at 9:39 pm
SGM is not taking all their MD employees to KY. Some got pink slips. That might mean SGM won’t need quite as much money for their new arrangement.
Joshua also mentioned that CLC would fulfill their commitment to the North African church plant. They also said they were open to funding similar ministry opportunities with SGM in the future.
As far as the exodus from CLC goes, some CLC members, like the Wethjes, already transferred their memberships to Solid Rock. At least one member of the CLC staff, Mark Donovan, is making the move to KY with his family. And some left-behind family members of those moving to KY, now attend other ‘local’ SGM churches. Who knows how many have left CLC for other denominations, like us? When all the dust settles, I wouldn’t be surprised if the total number of souls leaving CLC will be more than 200.
May 21st, 2012 at 10:34 pm
Sopy #244 — Thanks for the link to the Christianity Today blog. I hope it will be read by many who otherwise might not see the info provided, even though it was small.
BTW, you’re my favorite DJ.
May 21st, 2012 at 10:48 pm
Defended #255 said “…would go with him to China if that was where he (cj) needed to go for better real estate anyway!” And I would add “…or Jones(Ceej)town”.
May 21st, 2012 at 10:52 pm
Defended,
Yes -- CLC did withdraw its “tithing” to SGM. I was simply ranting about the arm-twist accusation by some individuals that doing such a thing is going to affect SGM’s employees. While it certainly isn’t a happy time for those folks who, due to budgetary or organizational constraints, are being dropped… I feel like it shouldn’t be part of the equation or dialogue. Sorry -- sometimes my typing is not in sync with my brain. ;)
May 22nd, 2012 at 8:20 am
@Kris #250 -- But…let’s just say, for the sake of a silly “what if,” that CJ and his enablers are NOT actually lying, and that they actually had been planning this move to Kentucky for a couple of years. What does the secrecy say about SGM and SGM’s leadership style and lack of respect for its members?
One other question this raises in my mind…if you were considering a significant move like this, wouldn’t you want to solicit prayer from the people for wisdom in this kind of decision? I’ve heard recent requests for prayer for the polity committee because of the significance of their work. As you suggest, let’s just say they’ve been considering this move for a couple years, wouldn’t they make it public that they were looking to reduce expenses and needed people to pray for them to see clearly what locations might be better suited to the PC’s goals? So IF they’ve been deliberating on this for as long as they suggest, it appears they’re a bit confident in their own ability to make these decisions (or at least in the efficacy of their own prayers apart from the rest of the church).
Again I’m reminded of CJ’s own words from last fall’s pastors conference, commenting on how quickly he can make decisions and fail to communicate those decisions well.
May 22nd, 2012 at 9:44 am
One certainly would have expected that there would have been discussion before the move was announced. It would have at least been discussed amount a core group of SGM Sr. Pastors one would think before being announced as a mandate. With none of this apparently happening it appears this was a decision done due to C.J. Mahaney having a falling out with CLC Leadership.
May 22nd, 2012 at 10:03 am
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if just one person at the SGM leadership table would have laid their weapons down in this and just chosen to be wronged--with full disclosure. Not acquiescence, but just a firm statement of full disclosure that a) this is where the disagreements are and b) an unwillingness to go forward with the charade of machinations that have been observed these last months.
What if the remaining CLC pastors had proffered there resignations as a statement that the system is broken--and we cannot engage it anymore rather than the weirdness supporting some of what SGM does, and not other parts of SGM. I know it would be a lot to ask people to give up their livelihood and, frankly, personal power or stake, but I don’t sense a cure for what ails SGM short of a willingness to dismantle--and start over.
The over the top (at least it seems to me) statements of appreciation for those leaving, the perpetual fog--I wonder sometimes at the lack of concern for the congregaton members who have to exist in this perpetual fog of (it is OK to term it) misinformation, either by omission or deliberate blurring of the truth, attempts at holy obfuscation? Whatever one calls it, seems like truth is a casualty--and really, the only hope of healing and freedom.
I wonder…
May 22nd, 2012 at 10:11 am
I’m not quite sure how to communicate this, and I admit some of the numbers will be suspect since no one really knows the number of people leaving CLC at this point. But the number 200 was thrown out there for the amount a people that have left CLC based upon loyalty to CJ, or issues with how CLC has handled this process since July 2011. When Persona mentioned that figure 200 it made me think about the AoR report and how many people contributed to interviews which was also around 200, which according to AoR is less than 1% of total members of SGM. I read that with the impression that AoR communicated this to make a point. That less than 1% of people “disgruntled” with SGM was not enough to bring about any sort of resolution to SGM problems or make any definitive statements. However on the other hand you have about the same amount of people that are more “pro SGM” that have obviously been vocal enough that they decide to uproot their lives and leave CLC (I have no problem with this btw, they can do as they please). So my thought/question is why does AoR in a sense “$ide” with that same percentage of people who are “pro SGM” than those who are “disgruntled”? Did they really hear from more than 1% of people that were overwhelmingly positive about SGM? And if not, why does it even matter what percentage of people throughout the ministry contributed to these interviews, if abuse took place at all? Just a thought…
May 22nd, 2012 at 1:25 pm
Steve 240,
I agree with your end conclusion, but who is to say it was not discussed among a core group of Sr. Pastors? Certainly CJ could have picked any number of sycophants that he could trust to not go Wiki on him (Mickey, Gene, John L, Dave, Phil, and on and on). I bet there were plenty of those guys in the know.
May 22nd, 2012 at 4:06 pm
STvMac 265
It seems to me that CJ spoke first with his wife and his daughters and their husbands, during the 2 week lake vacation that immediately followed his psuedo-confession at the initial CLC family meeting. But, no matter what the exact timeline was, the wheels starting turning early and progressed rapidly last summer.
After making the important decisions with his family, it seem like CJ spoke to Jeff and Dave and then Bob and others, a few weeks later. They, in turn, told their staffs to prepare for big changes but, not many details were leaked.
CJ may have contacted Dever and Mohler and other Big Dogs, to kick around ideas before he spoke to anybody on the SGM staff. But, I doubt CJ ever thought twice about leaving CLC. Nobody gets away with disagreeing AND disrespecting CJ, in this lifetime.
May 22nd, 2012 at 6:24 pm
As far as the secrecy, that was standard at CLC when I was there. I remember people telling me, “Don’t tell anyone, but…” and they’d proceed to tell me about a care group splitting or a new leader being appointed, or a new church plant, or something “monumental” like that -- sarcasm intended. Another sign of a dysfunctional and controlling group -- trying to control who has access to information.
And as far as the two-week lake vacation -- I wish I had enough time off to take a two week vacation!
May 22nd, 2012 at 6:39 pm
StvMac
This is part of what was in SGM’s relocation announcement:
The way that his worded one could easily had been “thinking” about relocation but really not exploring it till last July when Brent’s documents were released. I could for years be talking about moving but not really do it. Thus when I decided to move, I could say that I had been exploring this for years. Just cause I said that doesn’t really mean I was seriously exploring it.
As others have said before, SGM announcing this was more like a business where decisions come down from on high vs. a group or association where decisions are done more collectively.
Brent has done a good job in one of his posts in raising a number of questions about how finanacially wise or what savings SGM would really get from this move.
SGM Leadership had to find a way to justify this decision and the have found a number of statements to give that would appease the more loyal people that always wnat to “believe the best.”
May 22nd, 2012 at 6:58 pm
Izze,
Very acute thoughts! I wonder if there could be something not unlike an online voting/poll to aggregate who is very concerned/offended/etc with SGM leadership and/or CLC. What a better way to get a pulse of the body of Christ. Right now all we have to go on is what AOR reports and the number of people leaving.
Although -- I know that there were groups of folks leaving SGM (not just CLC, but other churches), being appalled over all the hidden things that the Lord brought to light. So the 200 estimate -- is that just CLC and is that a swag number of folks that are pro-SGM? Or simply people that have left?
May 23rd, 2012 at 1:35 am
Video ad for the RESOLVED Conference. It’s bad enough that it’s so overblown, but look who gets the prime spot. Be sure to watch to the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BbyzPkE_kc&feature=relmfu
May 23rd, 2012 at 5:37 am
JeffB,
Overblown is definitely the word. It’s like a Lord of the Rings movie trailer or something. Sheesh.
May 23rd, 2012 at 6:16 am
Sorry, Ellie, I must disagree.
It’s like the Harry Potter trailer, with the mark of the Dark Lord in the sky.
May 23rd, 2012 at 8:37 am
rorschach- I agree that it’s difficult to make a firm conclusion when it comes to numbers. I’m really curious though about the member loss in the last 11 months. That whole members (new and leaving) paper we get at memebers meetings (you know what I’m talking about?) will be slightly awkward this time around…if they hand that out…
May 23rd, 2012 at 8:40 am
That ad is blasphemy in my opinion. The entire mood, the music, the still photos….it is a worship tribute to the preachers. I mean it is like “bow down, we are your Lord.” I found it sickening. Am I over reacting? Not a single shot of the gathered masses worshipping or reading bibles? Just the golden idols of the celebrities? Ugh. How can people fall for this crap? Matthew 24…..many will come in my name claiming I am the anointed one (Christ), or the voice of Christ. Do not be deceived.
May 23rd, 2012 at 9:00 am
5 Years, I felt just the same way. I don’t want to put down the person who made it, but who’s ever vision it was, it did not seem to glorify God to me, so much as man. Or a few, very few, choice men. It could just be us, though.
But with the rays of holy light coming down from above, it was the same as the images of Jesus coming up out of the water after His baptism. Just in my own personal opinion, that kind of stuff might be best reserved for Jesus, not some mere humans.
May 23rd, 2012 at 9:27 am
I agree. I was disgusted by the Resolved promotional video. One of the voices says something like “This conference is really about the Gospel.” Really? Seems to me like it’s all about a bunch of celebrity preachers.
May 23rd, 2012 at 9:54 am
I’ve struggled for some time with some of the modern Bible conferences and the celebrity associated with some teachers. Watching the commercial for the Resolved conference with the light shining down from above, I was reminded of the medieval paintings that would have halos around the heads of the Saints or other godly figures to identify them. Since the Israelites expressed their desire for a human king to represent them, it seems we’ve struggled with the need for iconic figures to lead us -- whether it’s popular CCM artists or Reformed pastors -- we seem to demand celebrity. Some theme music and pyrotechnics (something like a WWE entrance) as each teacher takes the stage would really seem to give expression to what we seem to desire.
However, I’m trying to hash out how much of my response should mimic Paul’s writing to the Philippians:
Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Phil. 1:15-18
If there are a mix of motives in the speakers and those who promote these conferences, can I just quietly find contentment in the fact that people will hear the good news? I do struggle with seeing more people drawn to “big-name” men, but why wasn’t Paul concerned about the possible effects of people being drawn to teachers filled with envy, rivalry, and selfish ambition? Why would he rejoice that these men were winning converts?
May 23rd, 2012 at 10:39 am
Whirlwind #277 — I would take great joy if these men were to go into the highways and byways preaching the amazing good news of Jesus Christ to the poor, the needy, and the unreached.
I am less impressed when they market their wares to the upper-middle-class, highly-churched American consumer.
The ad struck me as the typical hype surrounding a multilevel marketing convention.
May 23rd, 2012 at 11:14 am
The video seemed like a trailer for the next great epic movie being released.
May 23rd, 2012 at 11:24 am
“FOUR INCREDIBLE DAYS -- ONE INCOMPARABLE SAVIOR”
Maybe He’ll show up in Person. How could He miss this? Really, the vulgarity of this thing is amazing, quite apart from the most footage given to someone running from his church.
May 23rd, 2012 at 11:41 am
QE2 -- well, that too. :)
May 23rd, 2012 at 12:05 pm
Argus said, “The ad struck me as the typical hype surrounding a multilevel marketing convention.”
Argus, I thought the same thing. I am not trying to be funny, but I kept picturing Mary Kay conventions mixed with the people of Israel saying “We want a king to rule over us!”
May 23rd, 2012 at 12:22 pm
SGM can replace a lot of the current Maryland staff with Southern Seminary students for probably half cost, even before accounting for benefits.
Those staffers that make the move to Kentucky, if they can survive long enough to sell their house in Maryland should be able to dramatically upgrade their digs by moving to Louisville.
There are real financial benefits to this move but the question is the same for any company that moves operations to a lower-cost area: is the disruption to processes and loss of experience and talent worth it?
May 23rd, 2012 at 12:23 pm
Regarding the RESOLVED video, it’s hard to imagine these men really take themselves that seriously. The light streaming from above, are they serious??
RESOLVED to exalt who?????
May 23rd, 2012 at 3:07 pm
Video makes perfect sence once you realize that they are not preaching salvation, they are selling
& promoting a man made version of sanctification.
Big difference.
While salvation is free to all that would believe, sanctification, the CJ & friends version, is a very
pricey scheme. If you want a better experiance in this world and the next, and by better I am refering to better than the rest of christianity,
its going to cost you.
May 23rd, 2012 at 3:48 pm
One incredible Savior?
Hey guys!
His name is JESUS!
Name above ALL NAMES!
Oh great pastors….(of the apocalypse), just what is your problem with proclaiming that name?
May 23rd, 2012 at 3:52 pm
This seems to be the last Resolved conference. And, CJ is allegedly hosting the last NEXT conference.
So that leaves the CLASH as the remaining way SGM rattles the bushes for youthful members in the future.
But, I wonder why they advertise that they preach the Gospel at these conferences if preaching to the choir seems to be the main thing happening?
Anyone thinking of attending the CLASH would likely be a Christian and probably already a member of an SGM church. How much preaching of the Gospel to the unchurched or unbelievers is really happening at these conferences?
May 23rd, 2012 at 4:02 pm
re: video in #270 = OMGROTFL!
Sorry, but I was rolling on the floor laughing with that one. Nice ending scene with epic talk of our savior and visions of CJ juxtaposed with rays of light shining from heaven! Oh, glory be!
Bottom line: my savior has come, and I NEED to get out to PALM SPRINGS (?!?) to meet with him! Whatever shall I do? Woe is unto me!
(the 3rd guys words were right on, though. who is he? do i want to know???… nevermind. just give me Jesus and the Scriptures.)
May 23rd, 2012 at 5:04 pm
Persona, the Sgm gospel message is so much
more than the life and sacrifice of Jesus. It is about how you commit to your local church, it is about how you submit to your God appointed spiritual authorities. It is about investing time and tythes. It is about how you spend your life and who you share it with. Its about humility, accountability, and you leaders infalability.
Its about not waisting your sports, modesty in dress, and doing Gods best.
There is so much more than just the savior, that
is what they are preaching and why it is for those
who have already found Jesus.
May 23rd, 2012 at 5:57 pm
I just received my personal invitation to the SGM Pastors College graduation ceremony on June 10, 2012 at CLC. It’s nice to see that everyone’s coming back to CLC for the ceremony. So CLC will have to use their auditorium and then put on the reception afterwards. For the last time.
May 23rd, 2012 at 6:24 pm
I just watched that promo video. OMG. I mean…whatever…for guys who admit to being so humble…the heavenly rays are such a nice touch…
May 23rd, 2012 at 9:13 pm
NameGoesHere said:
I am sure there for the people moving they will find it cheaper to live there. Especially if SGM gives them dollars for relocation then it won’t hurt them financially.
For SGM I am sure there annual operating costs will be lower in KY than in MD but there will be a signficant cost to relocating the headquarters that may take a long period of time to pay back. SGM has no facility where they are relcating so will have to start from scratch. SGM has also been able to jointly use some of CLC’s space for events and other times that they won’t have out in KY.
Didn’t someone state that SGM has an expensive recording studio in the CLC building? If they want this same type of facility in KY that will be a considerable cost. I am sure this is just one of many examples of up front costs that SGM will have to incur for this move. If they are paying employee relocation expenses then that is another.
Thus apparently you have a situation where yes the group’s operating costs will be lower in KY but moving there will be a significant cost and take a number of years to pay for these moving costs.
May 23rd, 2012 at 9:23 pm
Gross. That promo video is creepy. Some of the audio clips they chose are really wonderful too.
May 23rd, 2012 at 10:32 pm
Studio construction plus equipment was close to $600,000.
They have the funds to manage, besides, Bob gets to influence Nashville, priceless.
Could use the barf icon right now.
May 24th, 2012 at 2:53 am
Totally off topic…but a while back Fried Fish posted this about the Haiti fund and it’s possible recipient:
“Not sure if it would help connect the dots on Haiti, but there is a Lutheran mission in Haiti run by a Pastor Daniel which has a school and a girls’ orphanage — http://www.nehlm.com ”
I checked in with with the US sponsors and they did not receive any funds from SGM. However, I did come across a ministry that is the possible recipient of the SGM Haiti fund.
http://haitiboyshome.org/
I’ll contact them in a few days, unless someone has already confirmed it on their end.
May 24th, 2012 at 6:43 am
Wait -- they collected money for a relief fund for haiti but never officially announced which organization(s) would/did receive the money?
Is there no accountability at all to the members? I can’t imagine any real corporation doing that, much less a church or church-related organization. I know this is minor compared to the other things SGM has done, but what would it cost them to announce who received the money??
May 24th, 2012 at 7:21 am
MM #295 -- sounds like a better match.
M #296 -- in the flurry of activity after the Haiti earthquake, there was a groundswell of giving to help those affected. Sorting out the potential recipients to separate the scammers and the incompetents from those who would use the funds effectively was and still is no small task. I wouldn’t fault SGM for being cautious.
May 24th, 2012 at 7:26 am
@M -- sorry, more specifically to your comment, SGM did make a statement about where the money went, MM was just trying to verify. There was a long delay between receiving and disbursing a significant amount of the funding.
May 24th, 2012 at 7:40 am
This is an off-topic article about Bill Gothard’s organization, but it is so well written and exemplifies the sort of pressures that SGM put on member families, especially when it was more caught up in the legalist/Gothardesque/homeschooling lockstep approach:
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/05/failure-to-conform/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Recovering_Grace+%28Recovering+Grace%29
That extreme degree of cloned homeschooling lifestyle seems to have lessened in SGM, a change which may be due to Josh Harris’ apology for ‘one practice’ a few years ago. In fact, it seems to have lessened across most of homeschooling except for pockets like ATI, Vision Forum, etc. That is probably because it not only doesn’t produce the expected outcome — it backfires and damages people.
Anyway, C.J. and the old line hardcores (some of whom sit on the Board today) were reportedly angry that Josh Harris apologized. Others, rank-and-file members, were angry he waited so long and didn’t go far enough. Still, by speaking up, he may have broken a stranglehold and cracked open a door that allows people to now follow their own consciences in educational choices. Too bad he and those like him to dare to offer a dissenting voice are not being marginalized and soon cast out.
May 24th, 2012 at 7:42 am
Last sentence should read: Too bad he and those like him who dare to offer a dissenting voice are NOW being marginalized and soon cast out.