It can be sort of amusing and sad at the same time, to see what the defenders of Sovereign Grace Ministries have to say about this site. Sometimes how they say it is even sadder and more amusing. I typically don’t quote email without the sender’s express permission, but because my correspondent, whom we’ll call “Sylvia,” specifically said she wanted her email addressed on the site, I figured it’d be OK to share. Here goes. Keep in mind, everything is quoted exactly as it was written.
Dear Kris,
Please take the time to read the following I wish to address on your blog.I have been attending a soverign grace church for half my life. A friend informed of your blog and I was shocked to read it. Percuscion of the church by a christian! You say your a christian but you tear down another church. Your a modern day percustor. In regards to the C.J. Maheany siuation I have to say D**n! I mean we’re all sinners. That’s the D**n point of the gospel. Therefore C.J. is a sinner, and needs grace. Good luck finding a church with a sinless pastor there.
I’m not changing my beliefs but as long you yant about how you don’t like homeschooled familes and saty-at-home daughters I am going to be mad. It’s a biblical view of how the church and the people should be.
I want to be a loving sister in Christ but I highly doubt your in Christ at all. Let’s be loving. Lets be how the bible calls us to be.
I’d love to hear back from you.
Sylvia
—————————–
In other news, I received the following from Lu Webb:
Hello Fellow Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I am Lu Webb, and like you, am a friend and longtime recipient of Brent Detwiler’s pastoral care. Though I am initiating this communication to you on my own accord, I do have Brent’s permission to do so.
Brent will soon be reaching his third anniversary of being unemployed from any meaningful full-time employment-hardly a cause for celebration! Several months ago I asked him how he was doing financially. Though Brent received a severance package from his last church employment, it obviously has not nearly been enough to cover his basic expenses since, nor can we expect it to. Since his separation from SGM, Brent and Jenny have been forced to deplete their savings and retirement accounts while Brent has felt called to expose and address the wrongs and injustices he feels God has revealed to him. I don’t need to remind you that this has been not only for the benefit of those directly involved, but also for those of us in the body of Christ. Brent has worked when and where he could while simultaneously holding SGM and those in its leadership positions accountable. Sometimes it was a voice crying in the wilderness.
Data gathered reveals that tens of thousands have read his materials and thousands have claimed to be helped through Brent’s written efforts over the last 3 years. SGM wikileaks alone is coming up on 100,000 hits.
Brent purposed to not place commercial advertising on his blog. He has never begged for money or charged a fee for access to his materials. All free. He did not want anyone to reject his writings on the basis of thinking he wrote them for money and was taking advantage of the situation.
He and Jenny have been through so much! One can only imagine the temptation to utter despair at the prospects of having dedicated more than 30 years of one’s life to a ministry and then be faced with evidence of betrayal, misrepresentation, slander, and isolation from friends, brothers-in-Christ, colleagues, and even family. Yet, he has persevered to ferret out the truth and reveal to us the nature of the emperor’s clothes. This “ministry” comes at a cost.
Brent is not perfect. He has admitted to his failures in leadership and practice. Who of us could stand up under the avalanche they’ve endured?
I am compelled by the Holy Spirit to write my fellow brothers and sisters to prayerfully consider giving a financial gift to the Detwilers to help them recover some of the financial losses they have incurred over the last 3 years. We all have been served so faithfully for decades by Brent as a pastor, teacher, apostle, counselor, and friend in many circumstances. Can we now serve them when they need us most?
Please know that helping them is not a statement of complete support or agreement with Brent or all he’s written. You may wish to consider it an act of mercy. You can be assured that your name will be kept in strict confidence under all circumstances. Neither I nor the Detwilers will interpret their financial help as unconditional approval, just an act of benevolence and care.
Time is running short before the Detwiler’s will be literally bankrupt. I am asking that you prayerfully consider agreeing with me that we will be led by the Spirit in not allowing the Detwiler’s to continue to be victimized. Some have attacked Brent publicly asking why he just doesn’t go out and get a job. With our current economy I don’t have to tell you that there are few prospects for a nearly 60 year-old man who has been in ministry his entire working life for a very unique “denomination” that blackballed him from his last employment.
There are three ways we can help the Detwiler family financially:
1. Prayerfully consider giving a one-time gift by check either directly to them at their home address or through Alethia Ministries.
Your donations to Alethia will be tax-deductible in that Alethia is a non-profit organization. A receipt for your donation will be sent to you for tax purposes.
2. Prayerfully consider giving benevolence using the Paypal button on BrentDetwiler.com. In addition, if you have the means, consider giving on a monthly recurring basis as the Spirit leads.
3. Enjoin others that you know have been touched by the Detwiler family and ask them to consider this as well.(by blog, email or phone call)
Please note that I am not communicating that we set Brent up with a salary for the rest of his life. I am simply suggesting that we come along side a brother and sister in need and help them get back on their feet.
Acts 2:44-47 exhorts us all to be a peculiar people in that we demonstrate our love not as the world would, but, as people sharing all in common with glad and generous hearts. Please read this passage as you consider my request and ask yourself is this an opportunity for you as well to stand up and be counted when the needs of our brother are serious. What the world sees as a painful, interruptive sacrifice the Spirit views as gladness and joy.
Finally…..
John 15:12 – ” This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you”.
Brent’s Address:
Brent Detwiler
278 Arrow Point Lane
Davidson, NC. 28036
Alethia Ministries
278 Arrow Point Lane
Davidson, NC. 28036
If you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to call or write.
Sincerely,
Lu Webb
June 5th, 2012 at 1:00 pm
Sylvia said: Percuscion of the church by a christian!
I know she meant Persecution, but I read it as Percussion. Bang that drum, Kris :)
June 5th, 2012 at 1:05 pm
Something worth discussing from the first letter that I don’t think that has been discussed much here: most people in SGM (including pastors) don’t know how to disagree with each other. Its unfortunate that SGM has not said anything more about ‘loyal dissension’ that Dave Harvey mentioned in a video a year ago. What does everyone think loyal dissension should look like?
June 5th, 2012 at 1:15 pm
I get the feeling that Sylvia is a young, homeschooled, stay-at-home daughter.
Sylvia, no one here dislikes you. We just would not want you or anyone else, male or female, that only homeschooled Christians, or only stay-at-home daughters, or only those who follow the courtship model can be assured of their salvation. As a matter of fact, it sounds like you love Jesus very much, but I’m quite certain that there are some stay-at-home, homeschooled, courtship model, church-going young people who believe they are saved due to those factors, yet who have not yet come to know Jesus. It is dangerous to put stock in prescribed behavior rather than a relationship with Jesus Christ when it comes to salvation. There is nothing wrong with your beliefs, so long as you don’t make the mistake Peter made before Paul publicly corrected him, by adding any other behavior to the necessity of the cross in order to be saved.
Much love, and thanks for e-mailing us!
June 5th, 2012 at 1:51 pm
Sylvia
What can a person say except “wow that koolaid must taste great” LOL In your letter to Kris you wrote “It’s a biblical view of how the church and the people should be” ( I am assuming your talking about homeschooling and courtship ) Do you have scriptural references for this statment ? Also I sure I can talk for everyone on this blog in that we do not nor have ever believed or stated we required a pastor to be sinless. Do you have any quotes to show the majority of this blogs posters have a belief that a pastor should be sinless ? And how much to these blogs have you read ? Did you come to read these blogs with a vindictive heart or one of how can I show them the grace of Christ ?
I do find it quite disturbing that there are still such blinded sheeple in this world.
June 5th, 2012 at 1:55 pm
Sylvia-
Just because CJ is a sinner does not excuse him of the consequences. I think even CJ used to teach that very concept. Interesting that you feel free to curse in a first time correspondence.
As for Brent, I’m a little over this sob story of events. I’m sorry for the hard times Bent has fallen on, and I understand first hand, how hard the job market is right now. But it seems to me that Brent has reaped what he has sown.
Brent-for years you hitched your wagon to a man who did not practice what he preached. You even commended and celebrated his ministry publicly, while privately you were chastising him for his hypocrisy.
And what about the victims of your ministerial mistakes and legalistic teaching? The reports on the blogs have not been encouraging, from those who have tried to interact with you about YOUR past…what’s the deal? Now you want our money? No thanks….
Brent, time to face facts. You didn’t help build a “unique” denomination, you helped build a cult of personality (CJ). Cult, you were a major participant in leading a cult. I would gladly donate to see that you get some solid counseling.
June 5th, 2012 at 2:02 pm
Sylvia is a “useful idiot” and a powerful tool in controlling the church. When people question things and make the leadership explain itself there is a nice balance to who runs the church. But when you say “…of course CJ isnt sinless” but then wont address sins that he confesses, what else is there to say.
People like Sylvia shut down an educated and intelligent conversation like throwing up on the snack table ruins the party.
June 5th, 2012 at 2:13 pm
Hmmm. Eleven errors in thirteen lines of the body of her letter. I hope that is not par for the course in home schooling (I know for a fact that it is not).
I can’t join Wow in saying that it sounds like she really loves Jesus. I can’t make an assumption one way or the other (unlike her condemnation of Kris). I certainly can make the assumption that she has been raised to be a CJ sycophant if she thinks that anyone is persecuting him just because he is a sinner. I don’t know how old she is, but assume from her use of D**n several times that she is not but so young (let’s hope).
So IMHO this letter is sad on at least three levels.
June 5th, 2012 at 2:20 pm
From the email address Sylvia used, I was able to deduce that she does indeed appear to be a young woman, probably early 20s, who runs an online business -- so yeah, a stay-at-home daughter. She also blogs, in a somewhat more intelligent, less profanity-laden style than the way she wrote to me. I was actually thinking to myself that maybe Sylvia was writing from an iPhone or some other device that lends itself to typos and misspellings…or maybe she’d had a “nip o’ the grape” and was writing “under the influence,” which would explain the profanity.
I actually feel more than a little bit sorry for her.
June 5th, 2012 at 2:27 pm
Note to Sylvia: CJ does not need anyone to defend him here or anywhere else. He does need to stand up and take valid criticism like a man and stop hiding behind friends and family.
If he needs counseling to help him repent and communicate with others, he should make an effort to secure it. No one here expects him to be perfect. But, we are still waiting for him to be one of ‘the quickest repenters’ on earth, which is something he once told us he aspired to be.
During the last two years, CJ has repeatedly said one thing and done another. And, as you probably know, hypocrisy is something Jesus comes down pretty hard on. So, if we align ourselves with Jesus, we must all confront CJ in his sin.
As for Brent, I do think there is a viable job out there for him and, I am certain God will provide for him and his family.
June 5th, 2012 at 2:44 pm
I have mixed feelings about the plea for financial support for the Detwilers. On the one hand, I feel deeply sorry for Brent because of the way his career was completely sabotaged. In many respects he shares a lot in common with those who inspired the “Whistleblower” laws -- obviously, he lost his job (and essentially his entire ability to remain in the same type of job) because he fell out of favor for challenging CJ. Now he is unemployed -- and unemployable in the same capacity -- at an age when it would be very difficult to start over.
So I think it’d be great if people rally behind him to support him while he figures out his next step. That’s why I posted Mr. Webb’s email. If anyone feels led to donate to Brent right now, I think they ought to do so.
At the same time, I’m thinking more of us would rally behind Brent if we got the sense that this tough time has caused him to gain a better perspective on his own contributions to SGM’s dysfunction. For instance (and I have mentioned this very thing to Brent himself), does Brent now understand that he might have been harsh to those in his care? When he was an SGM pastor, what would Brent’s counsel have been to someone in his very same current situation? What would he have said to a man who had been out of work for a couple of years and was facing financial disaster? Would he have empathized and sympathized? Would he have put a call out to other church members to support the man financially? Or would Brent instead have dispensed some “tough love,” directing the man’s attention to the possible ways his own sin was contributing to his financial problems? How likely is it that Brent would have blasted the man for not trying harder to take a job, ANY job, even if it were not in his original line of work? Would Brent have urged the man to support his family in whatever way he could, even to the point of taking a job delivering pizzas if necessary?
I’d love to get a better feel for how Brent now views the SGM system and his own participation in the harsh counsel that was often dispensed. In addition to rejecting CJ, has Brent rejected the parts of SGM that were mean and graceless and hurtful to people, particularly the people who were at their most downtrodden and vulnerable when they sought help from their pastors, just like Brent is seeking help from the public now?
June 5th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
Bill said,
I think this is a good question. Obviously SGM has not had effective methods in place for addressing disagreements. Their strategy has historically been to squelch dissent and make questioners or those with differing opinions feel wrong for questioning or disagreeing. How have they addressed this lack? What do they teach as the right way to bring a concern/question/disagreement to a leader?
What sorts of safeguards have been put in place to hold CJ and other leaders accountable? If another guy in Brent’s position needs to confront CJ or someone like him about wrongdoing, how is he supposed to do this?
June 5th, 2012 at 2:58 pm
I felt great sadness and pity for Sylvia. Her writing was awkward and disjointed, which leaves me believing that her thinking is that way as well. She concludes, like so many others, that because CJ is a sinner like everyone else that everything he has done should be forgiven and forgotten. She does not even mention the character qualifications for a person who is a leader or desires to lead, or the many people who have been wounded by the practices of SGM under the leadership of CJ.
Her writing reminds me if “Jimmy Brown” and his continual questioning of people as to “how CJ hurt them personally.” He was always trying to shut the conversation down by discounting the people who were speaking to problems/issues they observed.
June 5th, 2012 at 3:19 pm
I’ve been blog-stalking for years -- first time posting. I agree with Kris in comment number 10. Well said.
I think that Brent’s postings shed light on many things which had been in the darkness for far too long. For that I am grateful. However, I do feel that he hasn’t realized the extent to which he contributed to the culture of SGM. He was a proponent of much of what he now despises. He is tasting some of his own medicine and is realizing it is a lot more bitter than he would like.
It seems like he may have gone a bit off the deep end. His repeated emails to the AoR people -- only minutes or hours apart are just a few examples. It’s probably time for him to find a job to support his family and not use this situation as his main employment (or lack thereof).
I haven’t really seen from him a sorrow for what he’s done to people in the past -- the attitudes of superiority and arrogance that he once carried off quite well. Does he see himself for what he once was? He’s accusing CJ of being blind -- does he need to take his own blinders off?
Yes -- he’s been hurt and mistreated -- but he needs to get up, brush the dust off his pants and get a job. He can continue to work through these issues while working -- like many of the rest of us. Just a thought…
June 5th, 2012 at 4:17 pm
I am not so sure what kind of work a 55 year old man can get. Especially given his past employment. (I haven’t seen any job ads for a right hand man lately.) I really feel sorry for him and his family. In my book, in this economy, if anyone has a job, they are very lucky.
I know God has a plan for Brent’s life and that is the only thing that gives me hope when I ponder his employment opportunities.
June 5th, 2012 at 4:20 pm
Btw, welcome LittleBunny! Thanks for speaking up and sharing!
June 5th, 2012 at 4:59 pm
LittleBunny -
Welcome. Glad you came out of lurkerdom. :D
I don’t want to make it sound like I’m against the idea of supporting the Detwilers financially. I think it would be a kind thing to do, considering everything. I don’t even mean to imply that I think Brent needs to do some sort of penance in order to qualify for our support.
BUT, I do think more of us would be more sympathetic to his cause if he’d communicate in normal everyday non-SGM lingo how his views of SGM’s old sin-sniffing harsh counsel have changed now. More importantly, I think my question would be, have his views changed? Does he now reject his old embrace of SGM’s legalism, legalism that he played quite a significant part in propagating back in the day?
Also, has he made the connection between the hardline stance that leaders must already prevail and the responses he’s gotten from CJ and CJ’s enablers? If so, does he now regret any of the occasions when he himself took that hardline stance about his own leadership when confronted by people who believed him to be in the wrong about something?
These are the sorts of topics I would love to see Brent address. I think that if he could communicate in a genuine and normal, ordinary-folks sort of way that he understands his past mistakes and feels regret and even sorrow for them, and that he realizes he is, as Musicman pointed out, now merely experiencing the other side of the great leader/non-leader divide, many more people would rally around him and support him.
June 5th, 2012 at 5:03 pm
I have a friend who has been unemployed as an engIneer for a year. He is getting a job at a big box store until something opens up. I would suggest that Brent do the same. Unless it’s beneath him … Which might be an opportunity to discuss heart issues with him.
June 5th, 2012 at 5:11 pm
I know several ‘degifted’ SGM pastors in the same demographic as Brent and they are all employed and supporting their families. Brent at least has a seminary degree to help him if he wants to remain a pastor. If someone following this conversation lives in his area, maybe they can give him advice on reentering the job market or creating a new career out of the dust, that uses his skills and interests. I am sure God will give him a way to provide, even in this crazy economy.
June 5th, 2012 at 5:37 pm
@Kris #16 -
I get the distinct impression from much of what Brent has written on his blog, that he feels the major problems in SGM are not because the old ways were wrong, but because a number of SGM leadership were hypocritical in regard to “eating their own dog food”, so to speak, and because SGM has departed (at least publicly) from its original model of Apostolic authority. In short, I don’t think he believes there was anything wrong with the system -- just with the people. Am I misrepresenting? If so, I’d be happily corrected.
I’d be the last one to discourage anyone from trying to help a brother out when he’s down on his luck, but if you send him a check, you might want to send him some “Help-Wanted” listings along with it. Trying to hold people accountable doesn’t pay all that well unless you’re a CPA or a trial lawyer.
June 5th, 2012 at 5:59 pm
I agree about Brent -- it would be kind to help him. At the same time, a lot of people, myself included at the moment, are working in jobs that might not be their first choice and were somewhat forced into that position, at an age not too far off from Brent. He seems hung up and a bit OCD about fixing SGM. It may be time to move on, get more training, etc. if necessary. God works ALL things for the good.
As far as learning how to disagree and discuss with grace and intelligence, that was NOT a skill taught at CLC for sure! I was always afraid to speak when I disagreed with something that was a gray area, but of course C.J. had already given his opinion about a number of topics, and God forbid anyone should disagree with him in public. Kind of reminds you of Russia or something like that. Honestly! Sometimes I would say things to people, not thinking, and get these shocked looks. When I left CLC, I remember being continually shocked when friends would have discussions about theological and other topics and disagree. It’s still a skill that I”m stunted in. I feel like someone might be wrong if they disagree with me on things sometimes. It’s hard to unlearn that dynamic.
June 5th, 2012 at 6:25 pm
Their thought system does not allow for disagreement within a context of grace and intelligence; in any authoritarian system Disagreement = Disrespect. All their teachings on gossip and slander reinforce that truth--to disagree with leadership is to take a stance of rebellion against such leadership.
June 5th, 2012 at 6:39 pm
Fried Fish -
That is my impression as well. When I shared some of these thoughts with Brent via email recently, he made a statement about not repenting for sins he did not commit.
I’m sure I’m violating one of those SGM rules about “biblical categories,” but honestly, I wish it were possible for Brent to go beyond terminology of sin and repentance. Because, it’s not like I’m thinking Brent needs to “repent,” exactly. “Repent” is such a strong word. So is “sin,” for that matter. I know some of you will disagree with me, but I don’t actually think that Brent (or any of the SGM pastors who followed the legalistic system) is necessarily guilty of sinning against God. In their own way, I think they were doing what they honestly believed to be right. Again, I could be wrong, but I feel like God would understand, sort of.
“Sin” and “repentance” are such strong, harsh words…what I’d like to hear isn’t necessarily some formulaic religious speech about repentance for sin, but instead, an honest and forthright acknowledgement of what was harmful and hurtful about the old thinking.
But I think you’re right, in that Brent hasn’t actually rejected anything about SGM, except what he perceives as CJ’s hypocrisy.
June 5th, 2012 at 7:06 pm
For context…I am a self employed father of four struggling mightily to make ends meet in this economy. We are broke but not poor and times are tough. I had the misfortune or fortune (depending on how you look at it) to sit under Brent for years at Crossway. I got out just after the plant.
I never was a big fan of his approach to life or ministry and I have sinfully rejoiced in his fall from grace.
The more tilting at windmills he does the more I am convinced he’s already lost it or well on his way. I have solid knowledge of damage done during his reign of destruction and in those regards he remains unrepentant.
However, he’s a brother in Christ and I’m going to try to bless him in some small way. It’s really hard because the larger part of me wants to pull up a lawn chair, grab a six pack and laugh while I watch Rome burn. My wife thinks I am out of my mind as does my good friend who was burnt to a crisp by Brent on the plant. But I find myself in one of those seasons where nothing else seems to be working and blessing the person who I think least deserves it may be the thing to do. I’m going to make an effort to love him like Christ loves him.
If you hear a boom and see a large mushroom cloud forming above north Charlotte, don’t be alarmed. It’s not McGuire. It’s me spontaneously combusting having failed in my attempt to reconcile God’s perfect love for me while I was quite a jackass with His call for me to love another jackass.
June 5th, 2012 at 7:32 pm
A fascinating quote by Carl Trueman today at Reformation21 --
June 5th, 2012 at 8:33 pm
Ozy, I read that whole Trueman thing earlier today as did my hub. Carl said plenty of good things in it, but is wrong about SGM. As hub said, they don’t have “no real” theology of church, nor a weak theology of church. What they do have is a very strong and definite theology of church that is Papal Rome, with CJ as the pope. How Trueman misses the heavy handed top down authority is a mystery to me.
June 5th, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Kris, with all due respect for your sympathetic and merciful nature, it bears repeating that sociopaths prey on nice people’s sympathy. I don’t know what Brent is or was, and I surely hope that he is on a good path of slowly seeing the light, but as Res Ipsa who used to work for him pointed out, people have tried to meet with him and he backs out. He will not pursue reconciliation with those he abused so far as has been publicly known. (and with Brent, we know he’ll post about it when it happens, right?)
This is a repeat post from a former SGM pastor. I think Brent needs to apologize in public for this, and until he does, I don’t think God wants anybody sending him money. What he needs is a barrage of kind and caring exhortations to deal with his own past for a while. Jiggler, I would instead send money to somebody like Happymom who is paying shrink bills for her daughter, because of the screwed up SGM approach to sex abuse that Brent did nothing to address during or since his apostolic tenure.
June 5th, 2012 at 11:02 pm
I agree with the general tenor of the comments above. Brent, to me, is like a Cold-War Communist leader who defects to the West -- not because he’s turned against Communism, but because he’s been purged from leadership by those he accuses of straying from the true path of Marx, Engels and Lenin.
June 5th, 2012 at 11:38 pm
Brent needs to grow up, move on and get a real job in the real world. He needs to spend some time thinking about what he was part of and all the people he harmed. Brent isn’t Mr. Cleanman riding in on his white horse to clean up SGM, he was right there with those he is now attacking when it benefited Brent. That’s the thing I notice about SGM pastors, as long as it benefits them and they are getting their paycheck they will go along with just about anything. Brent is no hero, he has his own very long list of victims. Hopeful he will repent and get on with life. There is no excuse for being unemployed for three years and he is not intitled to financial support from the Christian community as Biblically that is reserved for widows and orphans in distress, not able-bodied adult men that have been focused on something other than supporting their family for much too long.
Get a job Brent,work your SGM project (which will fail) as a part time project.
June 6th, 2012 at 1:46 am
I totally agree with shocked in #28. Brent’s job of exposing sgm’s problems is now over. There is now an abundance of publicly documented info for anyone interested to educate themselves. I am thankful that he was the whistleblower, and do acknowledge that it took bravery and subjected his family to financial and relational strain. However, this story is totally played out. His continued persistence to spend countless hours blogging and emailing, continuing to try to achieve the result or vindication or reformation that he desires, is now quite obviously a lost cause.
And I am sorry, but thus nonsense that he can’t find a job at his age is ridiculous. Teach at a seminary, get a job as a pastor in a different church and denomination, gather your loyal friends and followers and plant your own church, be a high school teacher at a local christian school, start your own pastors college if you love doing that so much, start a lawn mowing business, get a loan and buy a franchise… I know the ecomomy is tough, but America is still the land of the most opportunities in the world, and the most upward mobility, particularly for a white educated, intelligent, able bodied male.
I am a missionary overseas and i work with with people who are really, actually in need financially. (like they work 70+ hours a week to feed their families, and still can only eat meat once a month) To support a well educated, able man, in the most prosperous nation in the world, quite literally the land of opportunity, to continue to obsess on the internet over this sinking ship of sgm and batter its leaders with absurd quantities of email communication at the expense of his own families’ financial well being… is in my opinion completely irresponsible.
June 6th, 2012 at 1:56 am
I agree with Shocked…. Brent needs to move on. He worked within the ministry for many years and the system repaid him with the circling of wagons and many cold shoulders. In the beginning, Brent challenged them which was good, but he also was involved in apostolic oversight and knew the weaknesses, the abuses and the strengths. I hope he now unclenches his fists, carries the sword of the Word in all humility, prays without ceasing and finds a worthwhile occupation with benefits while he is still young enough and healthy enough, because we know bitterness from within destroys. Any heartfelt repentance and honesty for his extensive role might result in compassion and even a financial response from the body and I feel for his wife and family these days. We know God is father to his children and knows when to bless Brent or CJ and when to go to the woodshed. When all this went down in 2011, his blog had comments, so I know Brent was emailed and counseled to avoid sarcasm and bitterness and yet he continues to bombard everyone with excessive emails and obvious bitterness. If he opened up the comments again, he would receive much advice!
For any injustices and wrongs done, let God avenge, for He is the One who rightly said, “Vengeance is mine.”
Romans 12: 19 -- Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
June 6th, 2012 at 6:42 am
Well, I’ll say it again…what goes around comes around. You reap what you sow. And Brent is reaping what he has sown. Did anyone send LT any money when his family got the boot? Or how about Friendly Fire? and the dozens of other guys who were ousted by sgm? These were all under Brent’s watch and with his ok of course. I bet no one sent them money. They all had to find their own career changes and work for a living like everyone else.
Doesn’t mean I am not sympathetic with their plight however. Like feeling sorry for drug addicts, smokers and those who eat hamburgers, fries and drink 40 oz soft drinks every day.
And I do hope that Sylvia was on an iphone—-I have gotten some strange texts from auto corrects!
But she is young and obviously hasn’t thought for herself.
Grow up Sylvia and allow the Lord to reason with you. …instead of being offended on behalf of men who do not deserve your devotion and blind trust. You are making generalizations about things you know nothing of.
June 6th, 2012 at 9:37 am
I am in tears reading Friendly Fire’s story anew. And not in tears only for the agonizing pain of Friendly Fire and his family, but for all those who are victims of SGM’s (Brent included) brand of “love.”
Friendly Fire’s original comment resounds in my heart: “While I was working myself to exhaustion finishing a church building and leading the church, he was slowly and skillfully winning the hearts of Mickey (my assistant pastor at the time) and my other leaders. He adeptly convinced them I was unworthy and unqualified to lead the church and must step down.”
We are currently going through a situation and this describes exactly what our “Christian” brother is doing to us(though in a business context). We have spent our last 2 years waking in the night, crying out to God for help. Help seems to tarry. Meanwhile lies abound…
Tears.
June 6th, 2012 at 10:46 am
Remnant, I’m so sorry to read what you are going through.
June 6th, 2012 at 11:30 am
I think it might interest some here to read Al Mohler’s blog today. He responds to the recent article, “A Statement of the Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of God’s Plan of Salvation,” which was written by a group of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists.
http://www.albertmohler.com/2012/06/06/southern-baptists-and-salvation-its-time-to-talk/
Of particular interest is his discussion of “tribalism”:
“Fourth, the last thing Southern Baptists need, now or ever, is the development of theological tribalism among us. We must all repent of the sin of building a tribe when we are called to serve the Kingdom of Christ. The more Calvinistic Southern Baptists, and here I include myself, are deeply theological and passionately concerned to get the Gospel right. The Calvinists I know are transforming their beliefs into an absolute renaissance of missionary commissionings and Gospel church planting. At times, however, Calvinists can be tribal and elitist, more concerned with counting points of doctrine and less concerned with pointing us all to the mission of the Gospel. Such a tribalism is inconsistent with the very beliefs we cherish. This goes to show that we, too, can be inconsistent in faith and practice. Of such tribalism we must all repent.
We should never apologize for attention to doctrine, especially when those doctrines reach the very heart of the Gospel. But tribalism, whether Calvinist or non-Calvinist, is an affront to the Gospel by which we have been saved and to the mission of the Great Commission that is entrusted to us. May God save us from dividing into tribes, even as we gladly and eagerly talk with one another about the doctrines we cherish, and especially when we discuss the doctrines on which we may disagree.”
Quite ironic, considering that he is shielding and protecting a member of his tribe against criticism. But C.J. (usually) espouses the correct doctrinal points, so Mohler apparently doesn’t notice, despite overwhelming evidence, Mahaney’s enormous inconsistency when it comes to practice. Of course, the loads of money SGM has given to Southern Seminary (as SGM likes to call it) doesn’t figure into the equation.
June 6th, 2012 at 12:24 pm
I was thinking about Brent’s situation, and it occurred to me that if anyone is looking for additional proof that SGM is not a normal church organization, what has happened to so many of the pastors who have gotten fired (or were declared “not actually gifted for ministry”) would be Exhibit A.
While some former SGM pastors have done all right for themselves after their firings, Brent’s situation is still a cautionary tale for anyone who might be thinking about making waves. Brent’s present circumstances are a testament to the fact that you can be the #3 (or so) guy in the organization, publicly show zero indication of your disagreements with others in management, and nonetheless get to the point where you are let go and then completely marginalized as a crazy, bitter, sinful person, left with few career options unless you want to completely start over in some other profession.
It seems to me that the SGM system has been deliberately set up to ensure that men in paid leadership positions will be extra cautious about remaining in the good graces of their bosses so that they do not lose their jobs and end up like Brent. I know the demographic is shifting a little, but for at least a decade or more, the trend was to place younger and younger guys -- with less education and fewer other career options -- at the PC and then in senior pastor positions. Those guys were also encouraged to court and marry and start families at relatively young ages.
Is it any wonder that some of them have such a deep and abiding loyalty to the system? Even if doubts nag at them, even if they are concerned about the obviously self-serving decisions CJ has made in recent months, even if they are secretly pretty certain that CJ ought to have stepped down and SGM ought to have made more dramatic changes, they are still under an extra level of pressure to hang onto the status quo. What’s a 30-something-year-old with a stay-at-home wife and 4 kids supposed to do if he ends up jobless with little to fall back on but a community college degree, 9 months of PC training, and maybe 10 years’ work experience in the insular SGM world?
And it’s even worse for the older guys, guys like Brent, who have made a career out of SGM.
Yes, the simple answer is for these guys to follow their consciences and do the right thing and depend upon God to provide. And if things get tough, they can always start over, taking any job that comes their way, even if it’s stocking grocery shelves or delivering pizzas. But how realistic is that, when the rubber hits the road?
How hard is it to start over?
Another piece of this is the way your thinking would get twisted after living as a “spiritual authority” for several years (or an entire career). I think that might even be a little bit of what we’re seeing at work in Brent’s life right now -- he has seen himself as “in the ministry” for so long that he almost cannot conceive of doing anything else.
There’s also probably something a little bit addictive about the social and spiritual clout that comes with being a pastor within SGM. You’re used to being seen as “set apart for ministry,” someone endowed by God with authority. You’re used to being the one dispensing counsel, not being on the receiving end of advice. It might be very difficult to step back and honestly assess your options, because the notion of humbly submitting yourself and opening yourself up to advice from others is such a foreign concept.
I’m not disagreeing with those who think Brent ought to just go out and “get a job.” I also believe that if Brent were honest, he would have to admit that this is the very same counsel he would have given anyone who came to him with these same concerns back when he was a pastor. But the reality is that there are so many layers of messed-up thinking and literally decades of assumptions about who he is, who God called him to be, and even of his own “rightful place of authority,” that it would be extremely difficult to step outside of the SGM way of thinking and do what you ought to do.
June 6th, 2012 at 12:24 pm
@5years #25 -- I would note that Carl Trueman didn’t provide that understanding of SGM; rather, it’s the understanding he heard from friends in SGM. I don’t know that he’s really trying to debate it one way or the other.
What it says to me is that some within SGM are either ignorant or willfully blind. SGM attempted to outline their ecclesiology in their Polity booklet. How you can write a booklet on Polity and say you weren’t conscious of your ecclesiology is a mystery to me. Certainly, Brent would disagree that they lacked a “real, self-conscious ecclesiology.” Maybe people haven’t understood it and it may not have addressed every possible question, but ecclesiastical structure was definitely there.
The problem (among others) was a flawed and incomplete ecclesiology, not a non-existent one. It will be interesting to see if this re-writing of SGM history is circulated among the churches.
June 6th, 2012 at 12:34 pm
Thinking about Brent’s future, I’m not sure where he would find employment as a pastor given his theology. I can’t imagine there are many reformed, charismatic churches out there looking for someone with experience as an apostle. And if his strong stance in favor of apostles isn’t enough of a deterrent, are there any churches that would read his posts crusading against SGM and CJ and think, “Maybe this is the guy we’ve been looking for?”
He probably needs to look really hard for a job that doesn’t require too much skilled experience and adjust his lifestyle accordingly. But I can’t help but think he’d really like to see SGM and CJ repent so he can again have a seat at the SGM table and be placed back into SGM church life.
June 6th, 2012 at 12:43 pm
Kris
Good post #35. This “I got you where I want you” has been shared before but this shows even another perspective on this.
I am sure other leaders have seen what happens when one questions the group’s Pope (C.J.) or even asks why the Pope isn’t practicing what he has taught and demanded of others.
It would take courage to question and risk your relatively secure employment in SGM. Apparently few have the courage to do so.
With regard to Sylivia I would ask why hasn’t the penalties that C.J. has imposed on others for even lesser sin been imposed by the group on C.J. Mahaney? Why are the standards different for him. We all know that pastors aren’t perfect but is quite sad when there are different standards based on what position you are in.
Everyone knows that had C.J. Mahaney caught someone else doing what C.J. was found doing, C.J. Mahaney would have demanded this pastor step down and would have little chance of being reinstated as a pastor.
June 6th, 2012 at 12:44 pm
For all that Brent in several blog posts laments the exclusion of prophets from SGM in its emphasis on apostles (in the old days and now, apparently, again), I suspect that is how he sees himself — as a modern-day Jeremiah, crying out.
June 6th, 2012 at 1:14 pm
In the past, when introducing a new pastor, CJ would frequently say, “(Blank) left a lucrative career as a (blank) to be a pastor here. He would show admiration for guys who left the pharmacy (Emerson) or the corporate world (Mitchell), etc. The first degree would likely be cast-off for a degree from the PC or a job on staff.
Then, we heard guys in the PC were encouraged to earn a college degree before attending the PC. One reason may have been the high-risk of loosing your SGM position down the road.
Now CJ is having his sons-in-law enroll in seminary or take internships in the Baptist church and seminary. Seems like CJ’s new goal is to facilitate PC graduates’ acceptance into other denominations.
One thing is sure, if you follow CJ and do everything he asks you to do, you gotta be ready to shift gears frequently.
June 6th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
Jiggler said,
I actually know you and your wife, Jiggler, and I’m totally with your wife. Lol.
However, I’m not surprised that you feel led to bless Brent in some small way. You’re a good guy with a big heart.
Let me know if you think I should build a bomb shelter.
- Kindred
June 6th, 2012 at 1:52 pm
Poor Brent still doesn’t get it.
I personally don’t think God’s going to let up until he does.
Brent’s fortunate that God loves him so much. Aren’t we all.
June 6th, 2012 at 5:16 pm
Wow. I’ve received my share of hate mail, some profane, some crazy, but usually both funny and sad. This one takes the cake. No one has every tried to explain ” the D**n point of the gospel” to me.
June 6th, 2012 at 7:19 pm
Jim 43 Ha! Exactly! Kris and others have been very kind not to return evil for evil.
June 6th, 2012 at 7:38 pm
As others have pointed out, I do hope that these mispellings were due to typos produced by a cell phone or something. If not, she certainly isn’t a good advertisement for the “benefits” of homeschooling that some claim. If she really has this problem writing, like others have said, I am sure there are plenty of home schooled people that unlike her can write well.
June 6th, 2012 at 8:28 pm
The June Newsletter is up at http://www.symboulosministries.org if anyone is interested
June 6th, 2012 at 11:35 pm
Uhhhh. Do I dare suggest Brent’s wife get a job, too? People in financial crisis, do this, you know.
June 7th, 2012 at 2:04 am
@5yrs #26
Wow, I know Friendly fire’s story -- long time ago… it has been astounding to me to realize the reach of this problem, and the devastation it has caused.
@Kris #35
One detail I will mention is that generally speaking, the preference has been to take students into the pastors’ college who are not fresh out of school, but are a little older and have some life/business/people experience under their belts.
**re: Brent and donations
If I were going to give money, I’d give it to Larry. In fact, if he were standing here, I’d go look for some cash. People ask, “How would we respond in such circumstances?” Well, Larry has an example I would like to follow.
I am not ungrateful for the massive impact of Brent’s work and its impact. But Larry’s ministry is where I’d put my dollar.
June 7th, 2012 at 6:49 am
“That’s the D**ned point of the Gospel.”
The first thing that comes to my mind is D**ned and Gospel are sort of mutually exclusive.
The second thing that comes to mind is Sylvia likely received many brutal spankings throughout her childhood and every time was told that she was receiving the consequence for some sin or misdeed. Sylvia: CJ (the sinner) is getting his butt whooping? If it’s ok to beat small children why is it not ok to punish the big doggie?
On to Brent. When I read Brent’s reasoning for outing the Harvey children, his spew directed toward Dave and Kimm was more of the same old junk emanating from this man for decades. Brent is the same legalistic man he has always been.
And, yes, I’m only a few years younger than Brent and I just successfully defended my Master’s thesis and I’m going to eventually go for my PhD but, in the meantime, I am looking for a little job and I know how challenging it is to get work in this economy but enough of the whining already.
June 7th, 2012 at 9:53 am
Kindred #41
That is so not fair. I don’t know who anybody is except for Kris and Jim.
I’ll tell my wife she has another vote.
With regards to Friendly Fire’s testimony….That still rends my heart when I read it. Many times its the first thing I think of when someone mentions Brent. It’s one of the things I’d most like to see him pay for.
Brent is not on the top of my “people I’d like to bless” list, he’s on the bottom. Actually he’s on another list. That for me is kind of the whole point.
It’s Thursday. May you all have mexican food for lunch and may you all get gas.