It can be sort of amusing and sad at the same time, to see what the defenders of Sovereign Grace Ministries have to say about this site. Sometimes how they say it is even sadder and more amusing. I typically don’t quote email without the sender’s express permission, but because my correspondent, whom we’ll call “Sylvia,” specifically said she wanted her email addressed on the site, I figured it’d be OK to share. Here goes. Keep in mind, everything is quoted exactly as it was written.
Dear Kris,
Please take the time to read the following I wish to address on your blog.I have been attending a soverign grace church for half my life. A friend informed of your blog and I was shocked to read it. Percuscion of the church by a christian! You say your a christian but you tear down another church. Your a modern day percustor. In regards to the C.J. Maheany siuation I have to say D**n! I mean we’re all sinners. That’s the D**n point of the gospel. Therefore C.J. is a sinner, and needs grace. Good luck finding a church with a sinless pastor there.
I’m not changing my beliefs but as long you yant about how you don’t like homeschooled familes and saty-at-home daughters I am going to be mad. It’s a biblical view of how the church and the people should be.
I want to be a loving sister in Christ but I highly doubt your in Christ at all. Let’s be loving. Lets be how the bible calls us to be.
I’d love to hear back from you.
Sylvia
—————————–
In other news, I received the following from Lu Webb:
Hello Fellow Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I am Lu Webb, and like you, am a friend and longtime recipient of Brent Detwiler’s pastoral care. Though I am initiating this communication to you on my own accord, I do have Brent’s permission to do so.
Brent will soon be reaching his third anniversary of being unemployed from any meaningful full-time employment-hardly a cause for celebration! Several months ago I asked him how he was doing financially. Though Brent received a severance package from his last church employment, it obviously has not nearly been enough to cover his basic expenses since, nor can we expect it to. Since his separation from SGM, Brent and Jenny have been forced to deplete their savings and retirement accounts while Brent has felt called to expose and address the wrongs and injustices he feels God has revealed to him. I don’t need to remind you that this has been not only for the benefit of those directly involved, but also for those of us in the body of Christ. Brent has worked when and where he could while simultaneously holding SGM and those in its leadership positions accountable. Sometimes it was a voice crying in the wilderness.
Data gathered reveals that tens of thousands have read his materials and thousands have claimed to be helped through Brent’s written efforts over the last 3 years. SGM wikileaks alone is coming up on 100,000 hits.
Brent purposed to not place commercial advertising on his blog. He has never begged for money or charged a fee for access to his materials. All free. He did not want anyone to reject his writings on the basis of thinking he wrote them for money and was taking advantage of the situation.
He and Jenny have been through so much! One can only imagine the temptation to utter despair at the prospects of having dedicated more than 30 years of one’s life to a ministry and then be faced with evidence of betrayal, misrepresentation, slander, and isolation from friends, brothers-in-Christ, colleagues, and even family. Yet, he has persevered to ferret out the truth and reveal to us the nature of the emperor’s clothes. This “ministry” comes at a cost.
Brent is not perfect. He has admitted to his failures in leadership and practice. Who of us could stand up under the avalanche they’ve endured?
I am compelled by the Holy Spirit to write my fellow brothers and sisters to prayerfully consider giving a financial gift to the Detwilers to help them recover some of the financial losses they have incurred over the last 3 years. We all have been served so faithfully for decades by Brent as a pastor, teacher, apostle, counselor, and friend in many circumstances. Can we now serve them when they need us most?
Please know that helping them is not a statement of complete support or agreement with Brent or all he’s written. You may wish to consider it an act of mercy. You can be assured that your name will be kept in strict confidence under all circumstances. Neither I nor the Detwilers will interpret their financial help as unconditional approval, just an act of benevolence and care.
Time is running short before the Detwiler’s will be literally bankrupt. I am asking that you prayerfully consider agreeing with me that we will be led by the Spirit in not allowing the Detwiler’s to continue to be victimized. Some have attacked Brent publicly asking why he just doesn’t go out and get a job. With our current economy I don’t have to tell you that there are few prospects for a nearly 60 year-old man who has been in ministry his entire working life for a very unique “denomination” that blackballed him from his last employment.
There are three ways we can help the Detwiler family financially:
1. Prayerfully consider giving a one-time gift by check either directly to them at their home address or through Alethia Ministries.
Your donations to Alethia will be tax-deductible in that Alethia is a non-profit organization. A receipt for your donation will be sent to you for tax purposes.
2. Prayerfully consider giving benevolence using the Paypal button on BrentDetwiler.com. In addition, if you have the means, consider giving on a monthly recurring basis as the Spirit leads.
3. Enjoin others that you know have been touched by the Detwiler family and ask them to consider this as well.(by blog, email or phone call)
Please note that I am not communicating that we set Brent up with a salary for the rest of his life. I am simply suggesting that we come along side a brother and sister in need and help them get back on their feet.
Acts 2:44-47 exhorts us all to be a peculiar people in that we demonstrate our love not as the world would, but, as people sharing all in common with glad and generous hearts. Please read this passage as you consider my request and ask yourself is this an opportunity for you as well to stand up and be counted when the needs of our brother are serious. What the world sees as a painful, interruptive sacrifice the Spirit views as gladness and joy.
Finally…..
John 15:12 – ” This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you”.
Brent’s Address:
Brent Detwiler
278 Arrow Point Lane
Davidson, NC. 28036
Alethia Ministries
278 Arrow Point Lane
Davidson, NC. 28036
If you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to call or write.
Sincerely,
Lu Webb
June 7th, 2012 at 11:21 am
#51
We were there when “Friendly Fire” got replaced by Brent. I remember that day we were all told our pastor was going to be removed. “Friendly Fire” was going to be set down due to pride and replaced with Mickey -- a person who many of us saw as “full of himself”. We were under the impression this would be for a time. Had we all been given the truth and the total truth, I believe many of us would have left SRC that very night or possibly thrown Brent and his “robots” out the door.
Sylvia you seem to be a prideful, defensive , unteachable conentious person. What have you to say for yourself?
June 7th, 2012 at 11:43 am
I did answer Sylvia’s message, as she requested. I have not heard back from her. I don’t know if she’s come back to read -- if she’s seen that I took her request literally and “addressed” her email “on my blog.”
If I had to guess, I’d say that she wrote her initial message in haste, fueled by angry emotion. The blog I tracked down via her email address would indicate that she typically writes with a little bit more skill and less crudeness than what we see in her email. So she probably regrets what she wrote to me…which makes me doubt we’ll hear anything from her.
June 7th, 2012 at 12:45 pm
Don’t want to be too hard on poor Sylvia(who has as she said spent half of her life in sgm) especially when I just read the following from Brother Thomas whom I have great respect for. He has helped me to re-adjust my opinion many times.
…..Especially with our children . . . this can come in real handy. We expect them to be at the same level of maturity and wisdom that we are at now, and so, when they make decisions or offer arguments that (with our own life experience and accrued wisdom we can easily see are fallacious, wreckless, foolish) we may be tempted to--in that moment--consider ourselves so much “better” . . . and, “if only they could see!” . . . . But forgetting that there was a time when we also couldn’t “see” . . . . And BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD, and NOTHING by our own worth or ability--we would still be . . . just as “blind”, “clueless”, “foolish” and mistaken . . . .
In fact, I find it beneficial to go the step further, when this self idolatry (which is what it actually is) pops up and remind myself that I am still (in my old self) sinful, weak, foolish . . . . It is only when I am out of the way, and the Lord’s righteousness and wisdom is standing for me, and Holy Spirit instructing and enlightening me, that I have any hope of acting with wisdom, righteousness, correct judgment . . . .
Anyway, the fast and effective technique in situations where some other person is aggravating or offending you . . . and you expect them to behave better, and see things the way you do--is to remember that, not so long ago, YOU were just like that and did the same thing. And there is comfort in knowing that, whoever the person is . . . if it is someone you care about especially . . . remember that if they are one of the Lord’s sheep, despite where their “level” is at now . . . HE WILL, just like with you, eventually find them, break them, and remake them, all the same . . . .
Hmmm . . . I suppose I shall call this the “Instant Recall” technique . . . . I find it works very well to deactivate resentment . . . frustration . . . irritation . . . anger felt toward others . . . the less “mature” so-to-speak . . .and replace with empathy, compassion, tolerance . . . .
NOT that you cease correcting or guiding others when possible--which is usually when they ask for it and are in an open, seeking frame of heart and mind--where it is your responsibility to do so, or out of love and concern that they avoid troubles . . . . Mainly, this is meant just to redirect judgmental tendencies toward others back on oneself, taking care of one’s own “mote” . . . and to diffuse unproductive negative thoughts and emotions within, learning patience, longsuffering, faith in God (versus faith in our self to “fix” others).
June 7th, 2012 at 3:17 pm
From Redeemer PCA’s Blog:
In North America, we have an unhealthy fascination with celebrity preachers. Building a church (or a movement) around a celebrity pastor/preacher has inherent dangers and gives rise to certain problems. Let me list a few:
1. Celebrity pastors/preachers de facto become unaccountable even if they voluntarily submit themselves to a group of brothers. In the worst cases they become uncontrollable. As long as the man is humble, and remains humble, it can work. But the temptations to lose humility are almost irresistible.
2. A steady diet of one man’s preaching, one man’s perspectives on and means of approaching and applying the text, even if it is excellent, is unhealthy. Eating steak at every meal may sound good at first. But after just a few days of beef at every turn, you start to feel sick (that’s right vegans!).
3. Reliance upon one preacher, even in the best cases, inevitably tends to promote the man rather than the message. Oddly, the Word itself can become less the focus than the one doing the exposition of the Word or the particular way the Word is exposited.
Several years ago, when I first encountered the approach to preaching at a prominent church in London (a church, by the way, known across Great Britain for exemplary word ministry), I was fascinated. Rather than having one dominant preacher, they had four men that equally shared the responsibilities of the pulpit. At that time each of the four would prepare a sermon series that they would then proceed to preach at the various services of the church—Sunday mornings, then Sunday evenings, then Tuesdays at lunch and then Thursdays at lunch, each in his turn, using each sermon at least four times. The other day when I was talking about it with the Rector of the church, I called the approach “platooning”. He chuckled and said, “Leave it to you Americans. You have a unique ability to come up with a name for everything.”
The beauty of the system was that, while one of the four was (and is) the Rector (and definitely the leader), the system diminished the focus on personality while elevating the centrality of the word itself. People in the congregation were sure that no matter who was preaching they would hear good exposition of the word at every meeting of the church. They didn’t come to hear one or another of the particular men; they came to hear the Word. Their interaction was not so much with what the man said as with what the Word said.
We make a grave mistake when we focus on the preacher rather than what is being preached. And that is what I fear we are doing in the States. The church is weaker for it. Nowhere in the New Testament do we see the phenomenon of a preacher/pastor being exalted as we do in North America. The only place there is a hint of it is in 1 Corinthians 1 & 3 where Paul decries the tendency of people to rally around cults of personality: “One of you says, ‘I follow Paul’; another, ‘I follow Apollos’; another, ‘I follow Cephas.’” It is the first (and arguably since it is the first, the most grievous) error Paul addresses in the letter. It is the message of the cross that is important, not the messengers and how cleverly they use words. There is always shared leadership and shared Word ministry. In Paul’s ministry the “preachers,” members of the apostolic team, seem almost interchangeable. It almost didn’t seem to matter who took charge of a given church or for how long. It was the centrality of the Word to the ministry of the church that was important, not the one bringing it.
In our case, Tim Keller has been one of the greatest strengths of Redeemer as a church. But in an odd way his very strength as a preacher creates a weakness. (Currently Redeemer is transitioning to a collegiate model with three lead pastors for three different locations, partly to address this.) It is a strange thing to figure out how to use to the maximum benefit the most gifted leaders the Church has today—more accessible to the masses than ever via the Internet—and yet not deform the local church, a place to be known and discipled in community, in the process.
In no way do I want to limit the ministry of the best and brightest men we have available for gospel ministry today. Please don’t hear me saying that. But I do think that in most “normal” churches and church plants, it is wise to have more than one regular preacher and deliberately to raise up cadres of preachers and teachers that can rightly handle the Word in all situations where it should be proclaimed.
June 7th, 2012 at 3:20 pm
Jayson -- it’s amazing what kids miss… like I am related to a family who has been part of SRC as long I can remember -- they introduced my family to SGM AND Homeschooling (So I basically blame my “Auntie P” for all of the dysfunction in my life… not really, but it sounds good ;), and I never knew any of the drama. They were best friends with the C’s and were so excited when “Uncle Mickey” became a pastor, and I never knew the hurt and pain and injustice that had been done. :( If you were around back then we have probably met. :)
June 7th, 2012 at 3:44 pm
uh. . . . persecutor??????
June 7th, 2012 at 8:49 pm
old timer, thank you for sharing that post. sylvia was me just twenty or so years ago. she was probably a lot of us. she needs as much love and grace as God gave us all.
June 7th, 2012 at 9:21 pm
B killed any hopes of being in ministry when he posted his 1000 page thesis on the Wikiburg Door. I’m not saying the causes of others here are not justified, but I agree with them, he hung himself by his own noose. His rants reveal such immature self-centeredness and selfish ambition. I think the 9 year old child mentality among the leaders is the most disturbing revelation of the documents. Narcissist not going down well. Regardless of the SGM experiences, no ministry would touch that with a ten foot pole based upon his words alone.
I think he may have some argument in going to SGM for damages.
I think he may have some argument for mental disability.
I’m sure he’d do fine in sales. It’s been a good fight. Time to go sell cars and provide for your family.
Asking victims for money? No.
June 8th, 2012 at 12:44 am
Just Saying…I think that is the most succinct and persuasive argument or explanation that I’ve seen in a while. Thank you. :Approve:
June 8th, 2012 at 12:50 am
another random thought: Does Sylvia have any idea how such a letter would be received if she disagreed with, or sent a similar complaint to her SGM leaders?
oy. It would be ugly.
June 8th, 2012 at 1:01 am
I used to post here under a different name, but wont be posting under that anymore, and wont be saying what that old name was. I want to protect my identity more and felt that name was not doing it.
Anyway, I wanted to share something for Brent, just incase he is reading. My father is 66 years old and im not sure how late he plans to work till. Well, he was laid off from his job maybe 3 or 4 years ago. My father is older and is not as healthy as others i know in their sixties. Granted, I know nothing about Brents health, but my dad got a job, and he has no degree.
I agree with someone else who said Brent should just expose sgm on a part time level. I’m going to say something that my mother always said to me when I was younger, “if you put half as much time in your studies as you do playing video games, then you would have straight A’s.” Brent listen, if you put as much time looking for a job as you do spending time on your blog, then you would have a job. It is not hard to get a job at perahps a super market or a store. I will agree it is hard to get a job working full time doing a typical 9-5 job. You may need to get two jobs and perhaps your wife could work too. However, shame on you for not taking care of your family first. You should have put your family first and address your problems with sgm/cj later. If I walked into work tomorrow, and my boss told me I was fired, the last thing I would do is talk about the company and how it has hurt others in the business. My first thought would be to find another job because I have bills to pay.
I’m done now. Thanks for allowing my soap box.
June 8th, 2012 at 6:41 am
That we are all sinners is neither good nor is it news. How can it be the point of the gospel? I don’t remember ever thinking that way.
June 8th, 2012 at 8:00 am
Just Saying #58 “Asking victims for money? No.” :Approve:
June 8th, 2012 at 9:06 am
@just_saying #58: Agreed, except I wouldn’t limit it to ministry opportunities. As a small business owner, if I came across Brent’s blog in the course of my hiring process (and many employers do internet searches on prospective employees), I would end the hiring process for three reasons. First, I would be afraid that the bitterness expressed on his blog would carry over into my business. Secondly, I would be afraid that these issues would take him mentally and physically away from the work I need him to do. Finally, his blog serves as a warning that the war he is waging against SGM could also be waged against my business if our employer-employee relationship didn’t work out.
I’m not saying someone in Brent’s situation is unhirable. I’m just saying that he has greatly reduced his chances of being hired because of the tome he has published, even by those who are far removed from the current debauchle.
June 8th, 2012 at 9:08 am
DoneR, #54, Redeemer blog…..excellent insights. Although Americans seem to want father figures so bad that no matter what the structure, some will try to turn men into God……
June 8th, 2012 at 9:48 am
Done Reconsidering #54.
You have some great points to consider. Unfortunately, not every church can have four teaching elders/pastors. Most are stretching their budgets with one.
My experience with SGM in particular has made me question the whole concept of career pastors. We have a huge system producing people whose only marketable skills are to minister in a church. Is it any wonder that they try to cover it up when they sin? What are they to do if not lead a church and if they are removed from their position, rightly or not, who will take them? This is the predicament Brent and many others find themselves in. Although they made a choice that led to where they are now, many of us have some responsibility for creating the demand for men such as Brent. It is like trying to find out who is worse, the drug dealers or users. Dealers would not be there if there were not money to be made and the user’s would not be there if the drug were not available.
I believe we have done our pastors a disservice by supporting this type of career. They become dependent on us to provide for their families and the more dependent they become, the more they must protect that position. They are also in a position where they can never relate fully to the challenges of being a believer in a secular world. While most of our day is spent in a secular job, and we are trying to balance our relationship with God, our family, work, and being an effective witness to the Gospel in all of that, they are paid to pray, study scripture, and minister to those who come to them. This is not to say that being a Pastor is a cake walk or that some pastors don’t make an effort to become a part of the secular by joining secular organizations. I am just saying that it is different from what those who they are leading must deal with. How can they be a leader when they are walking a different path than those who are supposed to be following are able to do? And, is it any wonder if some become prideful of their “spiritual maturity”? Each year they are in ministry they are paid for approximately 2000 hours of spiritual activities while we spend those same hours doing construction, accounting, engineering, etc. and is it any wonder that this academic focus has produced a focus on finding “the best” theology for many resulting in the hundreds (maybe thousands) of denominations we now have.
We have become dependent on pastors as well and, in so doing, I believe we have done ourselves a disservice. Many have given over the responsibility of our own spiritual growth as well as that of our families to the churches that these pastors lead. This way we can go to their church on Sunday and maybe a Bible Study during the week and the rest of our lives can be consumed with whatever we want to fill it with such as work, entertainment, kid’s school and extracurricular activities (although we have given a lot of that responsibility to the schools), etc.
Much of our church budgets go to pay staff and building costs and the church members and the poor around us are left in need. Of course, the academic, theological knowledge we have gained has advanced more rapidly in this environment, but to what end? Have we created a culture that exalts the vocational spiritual leaders and allows us to be cast off any responsibility for those in need around us? Is this what Paul meant when he said to Timothy “The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching?” Paul and his companions supported themselves by “working night and day” making tents while in Corinth, so, my guess is that he may have been talking about something different than we see today.
Anyway, I am curious if this has been on anyone else’s mind and if anyone has found a better way, not just theoretically, but in real life. Of course, I see the irony of even asking this question as I challenge a culture that has resulted in a focus on finding “the best” theology.
June 8th, 2012 at 10:00 am
@christopher #64- I thought of that after i posted. If anyone employer googles him then i highly doubt they would hire him based on your reasons. I do agree with you. I would feel the same. However, I do have a friend who works as a store manager in a retail store, and she says they are usually more willing to hire an older person than a teen because they are usually more mature and responsilbe. Also, they probably needs money the most so they are less likely to call out on weekends. And they dont google all their part time employees.
Brent, I mean with in the nicest way. You lost again sgm/cj. Did you really think you would win? It is time to move on and get a job. It may not be the highest paying job, but it would be a job. And one more thing, delete your blog before you go into any real job searhcing.
June 8th, 2012 at 11:14 am
Interesting thoughts, RE whether Brent’s blogging activities would affect his employability.
My impression is that Brent has written many important pieces that have provided a much-needed window into SGM’s dysfunction. Unfortunately, unless a prospective employer has an unusually clear picture of SGM’s issues -- to the point where he or she can grasp why Brent has been so dogged in his pursuit of CJ’s acknowledgement of wrongdoings, as Brent has discerned CJ’s wrongdoings -- many of Brent’s writings will come across as crazy-intense…and make him appear to be obsessed and maybe even a bit unbalanced.
If a potential employer understands SGM and can connect the dots to grasp why Brent is the way he is, though, Brent’s post-SGM activities will make more sense.
The problem is that so few people are at the place where they “get” SGM and what would drive someone like Brent to be so prolific and talk so much about getting CJ to repent. (I don’t even think Brent himself fully understands what is driving him.)
Then, another problem arises in that a significant percentage of those of us who do “get it” have been put off by Brent’s seeming take-no-prisoners methods when it came to his dealings with the likes of Res Ipsa, for instance. (Brent knows I feel this way -- I told him, when we were discussing Mr. Webb’s appeal.)
All of this causes the pool of potential employers to shrink dramatically. Unfortunately, because the nuances of SGM’s dysfunction -- and how those nuances would have affected someone like Brent -- are so bizarre and so difficult for the average person to understand, Brent’s writings appear to the casual observer to be the work of someone crazy-obsessed with an exacting standard of sin.
June 8th, 2012 at 1:38 pm
Kris,
The blogging/employability topic is interesting. I am in a leadership position at the company I work for and occasionally make hiring decisions. I have never looked for online information on a applicant so far but I can see how this could be compelling. My wife has frequently warned our sons about being careful about what they post as it could effect an employer’s decisions some day.
While I can see the pragmatic wisdom in that, I can see how Brent might feel that he needs to fight this publically in the way he has for the sake of others, to prevent further hurt, no matter what the cost personally. I can also see how what Brent went through with SGM could have easily brought him to the point where he is acting without thinking clearly about the future consequences of his actions. It is difficult to be exposed to and possibly hurt by this madness without it effecting us in some way.
June 8th, 2012 at 2:37 pm
Bowncer Pete said:
Good point. As you say it is really no wonder why at least some leaders will try and hide their sin and trivialize them if they think it might mean losing their means of supporting their families. If they loose their job as a pastor it would really make supporting their families difficult.
Some options for Brent might be to become a Realtor (assuming there is enough of a housing market). Didn’t one ex FL pastor become a manager of a Chick Fil A? I am sure Brent could find some type of niche with his passion for details and record keeping in some type of self employment.
June 8th, 2012 at 3:16 pm
BowncerPete @ 66 -
I completely understand your thoughts on the “pastor” system we have in Americal and elsewhere. It does not seem to profit anyone in the best way possible. Maybe my view is skewed since I have not seen this system work very well over the 30 years I have been a Christian. Then, again, maybe I am seeing reality.
June 8th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
Brent could delete his blog but every post appears elsewhere in a google search, there are pages and pages of just about everything he has written, and mixed in with that is the video of him praising CJ, so he even appears a bit contradictory…
However, he must have many loyal former church members from when he pastored and other connections all of the place from his public life, and many of his contacts are no doubt business owners, who know Brent can probably sell anything..
His gift for details and meticulous record keeping, the ability to write, and his determination (when applied somewhere other than SGM and CJ) are valuable traits….
Also as Steve just said, real estate is an option. It only costs about 800 bucks and 6 weeks of time to get a license…
Brent is going to be just fine. He may not have the good sense to drop it and move on just now, but he is a “smart” man…
June 8th, 2012 at 4:18 pm
Nice that you pick the most crazy rant from the other side, and the most lucid well worded note from your own. I totally can’t tell that there is any bias at all.
For the record, I’m not a part of these churches. I’m part of an OPC church. I found this website through a website dedicated to how much one person hates Josh Harris’s “I Kissed Dating Goodbye.” I, like Sylvia, also find it rather shocking that a Christian would start a site tearing down other Christians. Yuck.
June 8th, 2012 at 5:17 pm
Well Said Better in Time.
June 8th, 2012 at 5:53 pm
Yeah, Kris, how dare you yant!
;-)
June 8th, 2012 at 6:29 pm
Hey Heather -
Welcome. Thanks for the comment :D
You said,
Uh…
I am confused. I wasn’t going for any sort of contrast between Sylvia’s email and that of Mr. Webb. I just thought Sylvia’s email was sort of funny…and Mr. Webb’s email happened to show up that same day.
And, I’m not sure why you were expecting that this site wouldn’t be presenting a certain point of view. After all, this isn’t “SGM News: Fair & Unbalanced.” It’s “SGM Survivors.” Isn’t it just common sense, that a website where survivors meet to discuss and analyze a topic would probably not be brimmingly positive about the topic?
June 8th, 2012 at 9:13 pm
Heather
My guess is when you said “I found this website through a website dedicated to how much one person hates Josh Harris’s ‘I Kissed Dating Goodbye’” you are talking about my blog.
I wouldn’t say that I “hate” Josh Harris’s book. Like others, I certainly don’t like some of problems “kissing dating goodbye” has caused.
I also don’t like how Josh Harris seems to mention all the “pitfalls” he sees with dating but doesn’t openly admit the problems his “alternative” has caused. Problems occurred at Josh Harris’s own church with how singles were relating. I am also perplexed how especially when his book came out why so many people blindly followed it without some thinking.
A big thrust of my blog is to make people think about “kissing dating goodbye” and its affect vs. blindly following it. I also question the “one size fits all” approach that people have taken with it. In other words why is something that is more designed for teenagers imposed on singles of all ages.
Helping people think and realizing there are problems with IKDG is really the purpose of my blog vs. “hate” as you seem to think.
June 8th, 2012 at 11:30 pm
Heather-
You know your OPC history?
Machen started the OPC when the PCUSA went liberal and kicked him out. Also started Westminster Seminary. The PCA came later when some southern Presbys joined up with conservatives.
John Frame wrote a nice long essay you can look for online entitled Machen’s Warrior Children. It is all about the battles among the Reformed community, esp the OPC and later the PCA, the last 70 years or so, both with doctrine and practice. More than 20 fights. Hot and heavy and full of writings and speakings and sometimes accusations and “tearing down Christians” all in the name of orthodoxy.
This blog is nothing. They don’t call Presbys the “split Peas” for no reason. Read your OPC history.
Here I found it for you, link plus a little snip:
http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/2003Machen.htm
June 9th, 2012 at 12:24 am
For what it’s worth, Brent and his wife have both held jobs since he left SGM. I don’t know details about why they’re not working now (if they aren’t) — as you can probably guess, we dont exactly chat often. But there’s nothing lazy or slack about Brent and Jenny.
If we believe that God is sovereign, and if we believe that all things work for His glory, then it’s not a stretch for me to accept that the situation they’re in now is God-ordained. It’s not a situation I envy, but it might just be one of those nebulous “means of grace” that I always heard Brent preach about but never really understood. That is, if “means of grace” is code for “punishment”, which was always my theory.
Lu Webb, I respect your passion and your desire to help out, but is it possible this is God’s doing? I honestly don’t know but I can’t shake the thought.
June 9th, 2012 at 1:33 am
Ozy @24
The trend of authoritarian parachurch organizations is quite widespread and serious. SGM is essentially parachurch and will become more so as C.J. and other leaders lose the relationships their ministry was built on.
I had the odd experience of working for John Bevere (Messenger International). He has a strong “honor and submit to authority” message. I was troubled in my spirit every day over the same controlling, religious spirit I fought against in SGM. He and his wife are popular, charismatic speakers, and to their credit, quite sincere. However, no one knows about the abuse of authority going on in their organization.
Fortunately, I was able to conclude my relationship with them, only slightly singed, but it was quite difficult to do so. I’m sure others could recount similar experiences in other organizations.
This begs the question, where is the ministry of Jesus in the church? Ministry that resembles this:
“Then Jesus said, ‘Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls’” Matt 11:28-29
“The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they know his voice. They won’t follow a stranger; they will run from him because they don’t know his voice.” Jn 10:3-5
The first passage is the heart of pastoral ministry. It is safe, because Jesus is humble and gentle. It is restful because there is no compulsion. So, then why are we so prone to run after charisma, and spend ourselves trying to please A-type personalities? We actually reward brutish, self-promoting, and domineering behavior in the church.
The second passage is the response of the believer. Could it be that we no longer expect to hear the voice of Jesus in a pastor’s heart, or that we have gone so long without hearing it that we no longer recognize it? We are supposed to run from strangers not submit to their devices.
It seems that Paul had the same problems with the Corinthians:
“You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face. To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!” 2 Cor 11:19-21
So, then I pray that I would learn to hear the voice of Jesus in the church and to only follow those that have His heart, and that I would love others out of that same heart of the shepherd.
June 9th, 2012 at 1:54 am
Guys, A friend of mine is a VP of an huge health care company. He told me they google, credit check and facebook every single person before they are called for an interview. And many are not called because of what they find.
It is a brave new world.
June 9th, 2012 at 5:08 am
Res Ispa, Anyone has to see that Brent sure isn’t lazy!
I prefer the word discipline because the Lord disciplines HIS sons and daughters.I have been on the receiving end of “means of grace” coming by circumstance and situations which totally rocked my world. But that is how I grew in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. Ane learned to trust Him in His timing and what He allowed to happen. Not easy at times.
I hope they see that for themselves.
June 9th, 2012 at 8:49 am
“Whenever a Christian follows authority figures who don’t allow questions about themselves
or their direction or teaching, get out and don’t look back. Whenever someone says he knows
what’s best for your life, better than you do; whenever someone says she speaks for God;
whenever someone pretends to be anything other than a flawed human being who makes
mistakes and sometimes gets it wrong — that person is sitting on a pedestal of his own
making, and if you don’t destroy it, God will. So many freedom-destroying things we do are
connected to an irresponsible decision to allow others to be to us what only God is supposed
to be.” Steve Brown (Scandalous Freedom)
June 9th, 2012 at 9:35 am
Wow, I’m amazed at all the career counselors we have here on survivors. I’m sure Brent is taking good notes about how “yes old people get jobs”, “how to get jobs at his age”, “delete your blogs so no one can find your dirt” etc.
I believe that Brent is convinced that this is what God is calling him to do right now. Believe me, this blog would still be in obscurity and none of this would be taking place if it wasn’t for Brent.
Do I believe he was a big part of the problem, yes, do I always agree with his methods, no…but the cause of reform would have never begun without him.
June 9th, 2012 at 10:51 am
claude #74-thanks for saying it was well said, but when I looked over it, I noticed many typos. I guess i need to watch what I type.
June 9th, 2012 at 12:13 pm
DoubleCookedPork -
Welcome. Thanks for the comment.
It’s funny, I first encountered the “Submit to authority, your leaders are always right, even when they’re wrong, because they are God’s ordained overseers in your life” message in John Bevere’s book Under Cover. At our pre-SGM hyper-Charismatic church, which we’d left after several years because of a message from the pulpit that had become “Prosperity Gospel” and money-obsessed, John Bevere’s book was required reading for anyone who worked there, even if you just volunteered in the church office. When I read Under Cover, I could not shake the conviction that in the wrong hands, the book’s teachings could so easily become tools for control, manipulation, and even abuse. It bothered me that a pastor would assign that book to people who worked for him.
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WILA (#83) -
Excellent quote!
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MAK said,
I think you’re right, in that Brent views his present preoccupation as what God is calling him to do right now.
But I wouldn’t exactly say that this site was “obscure” before he released his documents. Sure, open acknowledgement of SGM’s issues from someone so high up on the inside did bring a spike in traffic here for awhile. Many SGMers who hadn’t been questioning anything before that did end up finding us at that time. But we were “old news” for a lot of people long before Brent published his stuff.
June 9th, 2012 at 2:51 pm
I’m still awaiting the results of a dissertation I did on John Bevere’s book ‘Under Cover’.
If anyone asks you to read that book then my own particular piece of advice to you is RUN FOR THE HILLS! (Now you don’t need to read my dissertation…..)
There’s a superb website dealing with the book and ‘covering theology’ at http://coveringandauthority.com/
I quoted the blog incessantly and Leighton Tebay -- the blog author -- kindly posted my dissertation up. If you want to have a look it’s at http://coveringandauthority.com/blog/
ATC, Bristol, UK.
June 10th, 2012 at 2:20 pm
ATC -
I really enjoyed reading your analysis of Bevere’s Under Cover. Well done!
June 10th, 2012 at 5:03 pm
ATC,
Thanks for the links. I will read up on covering theology. It’s an important topic for former SGM folks.
BTW, my handle was inspired by an odd event that occurred while I was driving to lunch with two of John’s leaders. There was a good Mexican restaurant in town, and I was thinking, “I could really go for some carnitas,” when one mleader said to the other rather proudly, “I don’t eat pork because John doesn’t eat pork.”
I thought, “What the…?” You can’t imagine the thrological violence that staement caused in my mind. I kept my mouth shut. So much for carnitas.
June 10th, 2012 at 8:42 pm
I’ve just returned from the 15th and last Pastor’s College graduation held tonight at CLC. It was the usual nice ceremony of prior years. I congratulate the graduates.
The SGMers were there. I noticed Chairman Loftness in the back left corner. The Mahaney’s, Ricucci’s, and Kauflin’s occupied the front two rows all in solidarity. The SGM praises and applause was flowing just like the good old days. I’ve somewhat forgotten this as we don’t do that in CLC anymore. It was like attending a tennis match…back and forth…back and forth. Jeff Purswell to Gary to the PC students back to Jeff then to Gary then ultimately to CJ then back to Jeff. I couldn’t keep track of it all. When CJ was introduced as the commencement speaker I thought the front two rows would soon go hoarse and I’m sure Betsy Ricucci (CJ’s sister) has blisters on her hand from clapping so hard…whaoh!! Jeff Purswell in is introduction of CJ commended him for his years of “faithful service and strong leadership”. I didn’t have a pen to write down the exact words but I believe he commended him for his integrity. He was definitely introduced as the President of SGM. I wish I had the little old smartlecon of the little guy puking. One of my friends stated afterwards that he was looking for a barf bag.
Absent from the graduation tonight was the CLC pastors. I did see two but none of the main ones. No Josh, Kenneth, Grant, or Robin…only the administrator and school principal.
Some are going back to churches that are questioning SGM, some are going to churches who are waiting and watching, and some are going to churches loyal to SGM. Some are slated to plant new SGM churches. Yes, folks, there will be more SGM churches in the not so distant future!!!!
June 10th, 2012 at 9:19 pm
MAK --
Did they say if they are moving the PC to Louisville with them? This may have been announced already, but I can’t remember.
June 10th, 2012 at 11:07 pm
Yes, the PC is definitely moving to Louisville. This was previously announced. Nothing was mentioned this evening about Louisville. Most of the SGM staff are in the process of selling their homes and moving. Some have already found homes there.
June 11th, 2012 at 9:00 am
Here is an unbiased view of the PC from a recent grad (posted on the SG blog):
“If pastoral ministry is in view for an individual, I don’t believe there is a better context for training than the Sovereign Grace Pastors College. With the teachers we were able to have this year, I feel that we received a world-class education. Couple that with the close-knit environment, and you have a wonderful context for training for future ministry. To the future minister, Pastors College is an unequaled experience.”
It is a truly amazing institution that can deliver a “world class” education in 10 months when it takes a real seminary 3 years.
June 11th, 2012 at 9:34 am
Anyone care for some Kool-aid?
June 11th, 2012 at 9:48 am
I’d be interested to know what other ministerial education this particular PC student has to compare his PC experience to.
June 11th, 2012 at 11:13 am
StvMac…your quote reminds me that the phrase “world class” was used about every other sentence in the speech given by the student designee last night(my guess is that the same guy posted on the blog). They also spend a lot of words describing and defending the PC to all the visitors (parents/family members). These students “read 140 books, took 35 exams, wrote 4 papers, took 900 hours of greek, heard 600 hours of lectures…etc” The numbers are not exact but you get the picture. Jeff Purswell took time to detail everything out and then this came up as the last slide on the slide show. Why did they have to tell us all that stuff? Was this for the attendees to think more of the PC or more of the students? But then after all this praising and honoring we ended by singing “Not to us but to Thy name be glory”. The standard for these types of events. I told my kids it was only going to be probably only an hour long. Wrong, 2 hours later and it only took 15 minutes to hand out the diplomas. Fortunately for my kids there were good deserts at the reception.
June 11th, 2012 at 11:46 am
MAK -
Just wondering . . . why did you go to the event and have your kids sit through the ceremony if you think you were just watching people drink the sweet stuff. I think I read that most of the CLC pastors were absent, but maybe this was at someones request? Was the congregation of CLC asked to be present?
Even though I am still in an SGM church, there are certain leaders of SGM that I would not support if they came to our church to speak . . . unless they came to repent.
June 11th, 2012 at 12:19 pm
Bridget 97 Everyone is invited to attend the PC graduation. It is also open to the public. But, the reception is by invitation only and each graduate is given a select number of invites to give away to friends or family.
June 11th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
I went to support a particular pastor that was graduating (I received a personal invitation) and my daughter’s third grade class all “adopted” a pc sutdent for the year so they went because of that. Yes, the entire congregation was invited based on a “thank you” blog post that Jeff Purswell wrote to all of CLC (on public CLC blog section of CLC website). Of course, only folks who had some connection went. Sadly, part of me just went as a spectator sport. For the life of me, I can’t remember what CJ blabbered on about. He spoke in his disjointed robotic language and by that point I was tired of the whole evening.
June 11th, 2012 at 1:05 pm
Kris #88 --
:THANK-YOU:
ATC, Bristol, UK