It can be sort of amusing and sad at the same time, to see what the defenders of Sovereign Grace Ministries have to say about this site. Sometimes how they say it is even sadder and more amusing. I typically don’t quote email without the sender’s express permission, but because my correspondent, whom we’ll call “Sylvia,” specifically said she wanted her email addressed on the site, I figured it’d be OK to share. Here goes. Keep in mind, everything is quoted exactly as it was written.
Dear Kris,
Please take the time to read the following I wish to address on your blog.I have been attending a soverign grace church for half my life. A friend informed of your blog and I was shocked to read it. Percuscion of the church by a christian! You say your a christian but you tear down another church. Your a modern day percustor. In regards to the C.J. Maheany siuation I have to say D**n! I mean we’re all sinners. That’s the D**n point of the gospel. Therefore C.J. is a sinner, and needs grace. Good luck finding a church with a sinless pastor there.
I’m not changing my beliefs but as long you yant about how you don’t like homeschooled familes and saty-at-home daughters I am going to be mad. It’s a biblical view of how the church and the people should be.
I want to be a loving sister in Christ but I highly doubt your in Christ at all. Let’s be loving. Lets be how the bible calls us to be.
I’d love to hear back from you.
Sylvia
—————————–
In other news, I received the following from Lu Webb:
Hello Fellow Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I am Lu Webb, and like you, am a friend and longtime recipient of Brent Detwiler’s pastoral care. Though I am initiating this communication to you on my own accord, I do have Brent’s permission to do so.
Brent will soon be reaching his third anniversary of being unemployed from any meaningful full-time employment-hardly a cause for celebration! Several months ago I asked him how he was doing financially. Though Brent received a severance package from his last church employment, it obviously has not nearly been enough to cover his basic expenses since, nor can we expect it to. Since his separation from SGM, Brent and Jenny have been forced to deplete their savings and retirement accounts while Brent has felt called to expose and address the wrongs and injustices he feels God has revealed to him. I don’t need to remind you that this has been not only for the benefit of those directly involved, but also for those of us in the body of Christ. Brent has worked when and where he could while simultaneously holding SGM and those in its leadership positions accountable. Sometimes it was a voice crying in the wilderness.
Data gathered reveals that tens of thousands have read his materials and thousands have claimed to be helped through Brent’s written efforts over the last 3 years. SGM wikileaks alone is coming up on 100,000 hits.
Brent purposed to not place commercial advertising on his blog. He has never begged for money or charged a fee for access to his materials. All free. He did not want anyone to reject his writings on the basis of thinking he wrote them for money and was taking advantage of the situation.
He and Jenny have been through so much! One can only imagine the temptation to utter despair at the prospects of having dedicated more than 30 years of one’s life to a ministry and then be faced with evidence of betrayal, misrepresentation, slander, and isolation from friends, brothers-in-Christ, colleagues, and even family. Yet, he has persevered to ferret out the truth and reveal to us the nature of the emperor’s clothes. This “ministry” comes at a cost.
Brent is not perfect. He has admitted to his failures in leadership and practice. Who of us could stand up under the avalanche they’ve endured?
I am compelled by the Holy Spirit to write my fellow brothers and sisters to prayerfully consider giving a financial gift to the Detwilers to help them recover some of the financial losses they have incurred over the last 3 years. We all have been served so faithfully for decades by Brent as a pastor, teacher, apostle, counselor, and friend in many circumstances. Can we now serve them when they need us most?
Please know that helping them is not a statement of complete support or agreement with Brent or all he’s written. You may wish to consider it an act of mercy. You can be assured that your name will be kept in strict confidence under all circumstances. Neither I nor the Detwilers will interpret their financial help as unconditional approval, just an act of benevolence and care.
Time is running short before the Detwiler’s will be literally bankrupt. I am asking that you prayerfully consider agreeing with me that we will be led by the Spirit in not allowing the Detwiler’s to continue to be victimized. Some have attacked Brent publicly asking why he just doesn’t go out and get a job. With our current economy I don’t have to tell you that there are few prospects for a nearly 60 year-old man who has been in ministry his entire working life for a very unique “denomination” that blackballed him from his last employment.
There are three ways we can help the Detwiler family financially:
1. Prayerfully consider giving a one-time gift by check either directly to them at their home address or through Alethia Ministries.
Your donations to Alethia will be tax-deductible in that Alethia is a non-profit organization. A receipt for your donation will be sent to you for tax purposes.
2. Prayerfully consider giving benevolence using the Paypal button on BrentDetwiler.com. In addition, if you have the means, consider giving on a monthly recurring basis as the Spirit leads.
3. Enjoin others that you know have been touched by the Detwiler family and ask them to consider this as well.(by blog, email or phone call)
Please note that I am not communicating that we set Brent up with a salary for the rest of his life. I am simply suggesting that we come along side a brother and sister in need and help them get back on their feet.
Acts 2:44-47 exhorts us all to be a peculiar people in that we demonstrate our love not as the world would, but, as people sharing all in common with glad and generous hearts. Please read this passage as you consider my request and ask yourself is this an opportunity for you as well to stand up and be counted when the needs of our brother are serious. What the world sees as a painful, interruptive sacrifice the Spirit views as gladness and joy.
Finally…..
John 15:12 – ” This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you”.
Brent’s Address:
Brent Detwiler
278 Arrow Point Lane
Davidson, NC. 28036
Alethia Ministries
278 Arrow Point Lane
Davidson, NC. 28036
If you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to call or write.
Sincerely,
Lu Webb
June 11th, 2012 at 1:17 pm
My friend who was looking for a barf bag just corrected me…one other CLC pastor was sited. That makes 3 out of 18.
ATC, one graduate is from Bristol, UK and will be sent back to the church there as a pastoral intern.
June 11th, 2012 at 1:40 pm
Btw, the wedding of one of the Maresco boys was being held at the same time as the PC graduation so a few CLC pastors including Josh Harris were attending that out of town, instead of the graduation.
June 11th, 2012 at 1:43 pm
There are two youtube videos related to the SGM Grace church. The first is a list of young students testifying how great it is to get stuck into a local church (i.e. how great Grace Church, Bristol, is). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9Txty6puwk
The second is some young people honouring and showing their love and appreciation for their pastor by re-decorating his office with a big heart painted on the wall. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9Txty6puwk
I make no comment on either of these two videos.
ATC, Bristol, UK.
June 11th, 2012 at 1:51 pm
OK, yes, that makes sense now.
June 11th, 2012 at 3:31 pm
MAK -
Thanks. I would have done the same if my kids had in some way been supporting one of the graduates.
Maybe it was a good thing that the Maresco wedding and the graduation was on the same day. It may have made all things smoother for all involved.
June 11th, 2012 at 4:53 pm
@Kris: Ok, I’ll attempt to believe you didn’t purposefully find the craziest e-mail from the other side and the most well put e-mail from your own.
I still am wondering how this website is constructive and God-honoring….
@Steve240: Yes, I was referring to yours. And again, I’ll attempt to believe it’s not a personal vendetta that keeps a blog against one man’s book alive for over a year. But that’s one tall order. I have read some of your arguments and don’t find them convincing. Nor do I think any problems arise when people are more thoughtful in their relationships and trust God more with their lives….which is what the book was about.
@5YearsinPDI: Uhm, thanks, but…I said I GREW UP in an OPC. So, it’s uh…nice of you to tell me something I know already? Did I say the OPC was right in doing this? Oh right…no, I didn’t. I still say a website dedicated to tearing believers down is yuck!
But as Kris pointed out…this is a site for bitte--uhm, “survivors” to get together and gossip…er, I mean, share their survival stories, so I should probably buzz out. I’m just saying…I don’t know how you guys can scripturally support what you are doing. If you’d like more conversation, you can try my blog or my e-mail address, because I don’t think I’m going to come back here. In fact, I think the second time was a mistake too.
June 11th, 2012 at 5:52 pm
Heather,
With your snarky sarcasm and repeated questions of whether or not what goes on here is biblically mandated, I think you’re right in your assessment that you’re probably not part of the target audience. I don’t know if you’re being deliberately obtuse or not, but it’s obvious you don’t understand anything that has happened within SGM…and you aren’t grasping any of the nuances of why sharing about one’s own personal experience is not “gossip.”
You also keep talking about Mr. Webb’s email as exemplifying my “side,” another thing that just shows you haven’t tried very hard to understand anything here. You can choose to believe me or not, but it’s true -- I didn’t put the two messages together as some sort of attempt at making a particular point. I would not categorize Mr. Webb as being on any “side.” Matter of fact, I don’t know who he is, and I don’t even have strong feelings one way or the other about whether people should respond to the appeal to provide financial support for Brent Detwiler. I see both sides of that question. I would love to see the Detwilers receive support…but I also totally understand why everyone isn’t jumping on the donation bandwagon. So Mr. Webb’s email does not represent any particular “side,” no matter what you choose to believe.
It’s too bad you’re so quick to pass judgment when you clearly haven’t even bothered to figure out half of the post you’ve criticized.
June 11th, 2012 at 7:10 pm
Heather… I’ll pray for you.
We here encourage logical argument back and forth even if you disagree with us… but the sarcasm just clouds whatever you are trying to say, and I think that in your head it’s easy just to pigeon hole us and view us as all “just evil christians” instead of reading carefully (it’s obvious you didn’t read this original post or Kris’ response back to you)…
were you just trying to get traffic to your blog?
Come back and let’s talk if your mind is open… you don’t treat unbelievers this way do you? I hope not
:Happy-Grin:
June 11th, 2012 at 8:51 pm
MAK #96 “These students “read 140 books, took 35 exams, wrote 4 papers, took 900 hours of greek, heard 600 hours of lectures…etc” The numbers are not exact but you get the picture. Jeff Purswell took time to detail everything out and then this came up as the last slide on the slide show. Why did they have to tell us all that stuff? Was this for the attendees to think more of the PC or more of the students? But then after all this praising and honoring we ended by singing “Not to us but to Thy name be glory”. ”
Seems to me this is part of their normal MO…We are great, we are great, we are better than anyone else..Oh yeah, praise God
June 11th, 2012 at 10:48 pm
I haven’t been on much, because a lot is going on in my own life right now, but I just felt compelled to comment on the posts concerning Brent..I cannot say that what he is doing right now is “of God” or not-that is between God and Brent, himself. I know for myself, I have also been ‘unemployed’, and was ‘thrown from my career as I knew it”..That I ‘struggled” financially, or otherwise is not an indication of whether I was where God wanted me at that time, or if I was ‘in sin’..my struggles were yet another opportunity for someone, anyone to express in some tangible way that God loves me. It was anyone’s time to just love and support me, which could be financially, or could be just a kind word, or an offer to help another way, or even a meal. Why is it when we have an opportunity to act as God calls us to that we always look for an excuse? Those were just some of my thoughts about giving to Brent. I appreciate his boldness, and YES, he DID make a huge difference with his detailed records!Yes, I have wondered what he thought at the time, or even thinks now of the situation with my family and others, but does that really matter? Only before God, it does. God has not called me to judge Brent-just to love.
On the other hand, I know all too well the pain and stress of not being able to meet your family’s needs, but whenever something just doesn’t seem to be ‘working right’, I always ask God what is He trying to teach me. It just seems to me that we will always encounter people we may think of as ‘eccentric’ or different from ‘the norm’ in another way, but that doesn’t mean they are wrong, or ‘in sin’, as long as they are not hurting another, right? Maybe God DOES want some people to give to Brent..It is not easy to accept “handouts”..One of the most joyous occasions my family and I experienced (for me anyway) was when we were all earning enough money to be able to totally bless a poor family for Christmas! It really IS more joyful to give than to receive! I don’t think I have EVER spoken to Brent personally, and I totally believe the stories of pain and hurt by those who have voiced experiences with Brent..I was extremely disappointed to see him divulge res ipsa’s identity-I think he was wrong to do that, but the rest..well, I sometimes think of how crazy Noah must have looked to his peers..Maybe Brent ‘is called”, maybe not-but that is between Brent and God, right? I suppose we can all make suggestions, but I know how ‘tiring’ that is when one is doing what they are ‘called to do’ and everyone else wants to “offer their ever so helpful solution of priorities” instead of just plain help, or even just a hug or handshake, and wishes for strength! Brent, I am praying for you, that God gives you the strength for perseverance for whatever you are called to do, and the wisdom to learn quickly all that He is trying to teach you! May God bless you! To the rest; I am not saying I dont see flaws with Brent-I see flaws with me, too! But, we all need love and support. Sorry for the length of this.
On a side note, I have very big changes going on in my life, and would really appreciate prayers on my behalf. Prayers for strength, endurance, wisdom and grace..please. Thanks!
June 11th, 2012 at 10:56 pm
The PC is a ten month program, 5 days a week for those 10 months gives us…
- 4.5 hours of Greek per day.
- 3.5 books per week.
- 3 hours of lecture per day
Seems a bit Greek heavy, actually seems like SGM BS.
June 11th, 2012 at 11:09 pm
Ex 110 I will pray for you. And, even though I do not feel led to support Brent financially right now I will pray for him, too.
He did a great service by blowing off some sewer lids on SGM. But, Kris also blew off a few sewer lids to prepare us all for his explosions. Actually, God is using us all right now, for his greater purposes.
I believe that the Holy Spirit will show Brent how to best provide for his family. He may also prompt people to send him funds.
I have been through both lean and fat years and it was a lot easier for me to see God’s hand during the lean ones. It helped me know God as my Father and I pray that for Brent and Jenny, too.
June 12th, 2012 at 1:23 am
This is the kind of thing that boggles my mind. Let’s invite everyone to devote their valuable time to fill up seats in the auditorium for the graduation, but we don’t plan to show them any appreciation for their support; they’re not valuable enough to warrant a piece of cake and a cup of punch afterwards.
But it’s not surprising, as this was often the message spoken from the pulpit regarding a few SGM weddings….”everyone is invited to the wedding, but if you did not receive a printed invitation, please do not come to the reception.”
I guess the description of the PC curriculum did not list any classes in manners or decorum.
June 12th, 2012 at 6:52 am
Persona, thank you, for your prayers!I am making a lot of decisions right now that require a lot of wisdom. I pray for God’s guidance daily, and seek to hear Him for my choices..sometimes, when life gets real busy and noisy, it can be harder to hear in the commotion. :-)
I didn’t want my post to be taken as criticism, I just want to remind us all to guard ourselves, lest we become the similar those we are critical of. Kris and Brent have both been major roles , to which we are all grateful! I am not led or able to give to Brent, either, but I will pray for him and his family. Perhaps his lean years now are an indication that God is telling him to move on, perhaps it is something else..I figure that is between Brent and God, and I will not attempt to judge or advise, all I can do is pray. But, prayer is not ‘the least’ we do-it is way more powerful than that! (James 5:16)
June 12th, 2012 at 7:38 am
Heather,
Why do you proactively support and defend a group of men that don’t believe hiding sexual abuse of little ones is dangerous? And who put dozens of others at risk just to keep the public facade intact?
I know you will read this, because the passive-aggressive tendencies your posts reveal will not allow you to stay away. Please respond with your thoughts on why you find this to be acceptable behavior from shepherds.
“yuck”
June 12th, 2012 at 8:36 am
Quick side note relating to a previous thread…
Phil Johnson is retiring from blogging and being part of Pyromaniacs.
It’s too bad. His was the more thoughtful voice there.
June 12th, 2012 at 10:29 am
El Pastor -
That’s too bad. In my opinion, Phil Johnson was the only one of those guys who didn’t with regularity come across as an a$$. Seriously. Although the Pyro blog has an entire category of posts devoted to what they call “tone” -- posts in which they defend the often mean-spirited verbal smackdowns they engage in so frequently with their commenters -- I think the truth is that somewhere deep within their hearts, they know they’re often not very kind with their words. Mr. Johnson was almost always the exception. He could write a zinging “Gotcha!” but it just seemed like he put a little more thought into the fact that there’s actually a person sitting behind the computer, typing what supposedly warranted the put-down.
I’m really going to miss his posts.
June 12th, 2012 at 10:34 am
Methinks the PC stats were pulled out of someone’s backside.
4 papers? Seriously, 4 papers?
Why do these people think they’re better than other people?
June 12th, 2012 at 12:43 pm
DB…they were pulled out of my backside and I mentioned that the numbers were not exact in my post. I was trying to illustrate that these statistics were given out 2 times in the course of the 2 hour event. I could get the real numbers as the “year in review video” which gives the exact statistics listed again on the last slide is posted on a certain CJ SIL facebook page.
But to your reaction, the only number I do remember exactly was the 4 papers. I hope they were big.
June 12th, 2012 at 12:44 pm
Heather said to me about my blog about Josh Harris’s IKDG book: “Nor do I think any problems arise when people are more thoughtful in their relationships and trust God more with their lives….which is what the book was about.”
Heather sadly I think you are missing the point of my blog. I would agree that people should be thoughtful about their relationships. A big focus on my blog is the problems that Josh Harris’s “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” book has caused that so many people that promote IKDG/courtship seem to ignore or won’t admit.
Josh Harris may have had good intentions and wrote about what worked for him as a teenager that had problems but for whatever reason people have taken what worked for him and assumed it was the model all people should follow. In Josh Harris’s own church there were problems with how single men and women related that Josh Harris hasn’t openly shared places where he could.
My push is to both let people know the problems that IKDG has caused and help them think for themselves about this vs. blindly accept it as seemed to be the case when the book first came out.
June 12th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
Also, this certain CJ SIL also lists his (new) job title on his facebook page….Interim Communications Director of SGM (it’s all in the family)!! He just finished his internship at CHBC.
June 12th, 2012 at 1:54 pm
Carl Trueman has a post up
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2012/06/thoughts-on-an-impending-conve.php
Interesting quote:
In the last year, numerous friends at Sovereign Grace Ministries have expressed to me that they have come to the conclusion that many of the problems they are currently facing derive from having not simply a weak ecclesiology but no real, self-conscious ecclesiology at all.
I thought he had no prior relationship with SGM when he was part of the three headed monster, er, I mean panel…
June 12th, 2012 at 3:25 pm
MAK @ 121 -
You’re kidding -- right? But I know you are not. SGM had to let people go . . . NOW they hire supposed-to-have-stepped-down CJ’s SIL?!? SGM is now officially the SGM Clan in my book.
CJ Mahaney et al show no favoratism, privilege, or nepotism; none at all! If you believe that, then I’m the queen of Sheba . . .
June 12th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
Hub and I saw that Trueman post when it first came out.
Hub made the comment that it is so mystifying to read this sort of nonsense from a guy like Trueman. Trueman is a brilliant man and a professor of Church History at Westminster Seminary. He generally knows what the facts are when he speaks. As hub said, SGM does not have either a weak or non existent ecclesiology (ie, theology of church) but instead a very strong Roman catholic sort of ecclesiology where CJ is the Pope.
I just can’t bring myself to believe Trueman is a liar, so I assume that SGM managed to cover over and spin their whole heavy handed apostolic top down model that trampled over local elders (pastors) in churches for decades, and allowed some pastors to crush lay people. By the time SGM had to pretend to the Reformed big dogs that they don’t believe in present day apostles ( which they do, and appear to be going back to admitting, now that they’ve learned that can get away with just about anything without fear of rebuke from big dogs), I supposed Carl was hoodwinked into believing SGM didn’t have much polity to speak of. Or chose self deception. Or was delivered over to a lie by God because he didn’t want to believe the truth.
The fact that a brilliant church historian could be so oblivious to a total repeat of 70s shepherding error is something I still can’t get my mind around. I do think CJ has “help”, as in an evil spirit false apostle masquerading as something he is not sort of help. Maybe Carl is just trusting and gullible…..but I’ve heard him speak and I’ve read some of his writing and he is sharply cynical and discerning, not gullible. So maybe he just chose to believe a lie? It is all so crazy.
Philly….http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/post/meet-carl-trueman-(1).aspx
This is CJs interview with Trueman from well before the panel. No prior relationship? hahahahahahaha.
Ugh.
June 12th, 2012 at 4:20 pm
I am sure the SGM considered and interviewed a number of people for the position C.J. Mahaney’s son in law was appointed to. I am sure the opening was announced etc. I am also sure being C.J.’s son in law was only a coincidence. Yeah right.
It is sad that some things don’t change but really not surprising.
June 12th, 2012 at 4:25 pm
I think it’s interesting that SGMers are apparently so tolerant of what would look like obvious nepotism in the real world.
Yes, nepotism happens in the non-church world.
But shouldn’t ministerial organizations be held to a higher standard than secular organizations and corporations?
Why are SGMers OK with the many family connections and the seeming favoritism shown to family members of men who are already pastors/leaders within SGM churches or the SGM organization?
June 12th, 2012 at 4:59 pm
Kris --
I remember in years past recognizing the nepotism, hating the nepotism (as there were positions or places in the church I might have been interested in, but knew I could never hold because it would automatically go to a pastor’s kid or royal family member), but also feeling like there was nothing to do about it, because if it was ever brought up to those people, they would vehemently deny it.
June 12th, 2012 at 5:00 pm
Kris 126
CJ would probably like to fill every position in SGM headquarters and all the outlying churches, with his family members or other pastors’ relatives, if there were enough to spread around.
He has elevated the father-son partnership for so many years that positioning them together is now a general practice in SGM. He may think that family members are more easily kept in the system and prove to be more loyal to the corporation, than non-family members. This has indeed been born out in many cases over the years.
But, for over 30 years, I never heard the word nepotism inside or outside the walls of CLC. Everyone just assumed the sons of pastors would be chosen for internships and jobs.
Also, it was assumed that their daughters would be married-off (as early as possible) to other leader’s sons with some becoming pastor’s wives. It is endemic to the organization, even if there are few exceptions to the rule. (You can’t control everybody!)
I’m not sure the RBD’s are envious about the practice or if they have brought concerns to CJ about it. But, nothing public or private was ever mentioned about it at CLC and I never heard one person declare anything was amiss, in the practice. Pretty effective snow job, eh?
It looks to me like CJ is tightening up this practice all the more down in L’ville.
Btw, anybody know where they are meeting to worship? The church must be ‘planted’ somewhere by now.
June 12th, 2012 at 7:33 pm
Yes, and he’s “interim” communications director just like CJ was “interim” president.
Many people have left SGM churches over the years because of the nepotism. But then those of us in the “SGM trance” thought that those folks were just not spiritual enough to understand how great we really had it. I saw this so clearly at the pc graduation. I’m wondering if there were a few PC grads that felt uncomfortable. I think there may have been a few.
Folks, keep praying for the spiritual blinders to be lifted so at least a few more folks will get out.
June 13th, 2012 at 7:55 am
I feel sorry for the kids that make up much of the nepotism sort of like I feel bad for children and young adults in European royal families.
All the boys become pastors (sort of like William and Harry in their Kaptin Krunch uniforms) Wave to the people.
All the girls are princesses but can never have any real power (smile, Mrs. Stepford and gaze lovingly at your man.)
In the meantime, my kids (unworthy as they are in their eyes) get to be whatever they are willing to put in the work to be (hint-hint: they write more than four papers/year to get there rollingmyeyes.)
And, trust me, they didn’t need to have exact copies of some dear leader’s Y chromosome to get there, thank God! Heck, they don’t require a Y chromosome at all (insert evil grin.)
June 13th, 2012 at 8:22 am
Does anyone have the blog quote by a Mahaney daughter, in which she lamented that her cross to bear might be marrying a man who was *not* an SGM pastor?
June 13th, 2012 at 8:35 am
DB
Good point about the kids and how they seem to be forced into either being pastors or a pastor’s wife. With the way things are going for SGM, I doubt that the next generation of kids will have the option to become pastors. I see a much smaller sized SGM but I might be wrong.
June 13th, 2012 at 9:02 am
Interesting about Mahaney SIL as Communications Director.
CJ’s former ghost writer, Tony Reinke, resigned and moved a few months ago to write for Piper, where he writes well and under his own name. I always wondered what the whole story was there — resigned for a better position, quit fed up with CJ/SGM, or squeezed out for the move to Louisville?
Here is what strikes me:
Many think Josh Harris has been overly slow and accommodating in responding to SGM, bending over backwards to work things out, while CJ and clan feel betrayed, run off, cut off at the knees, and deeply offended and indignant by lack of loyalty and support. CLC is dead in the water as far as CJ/SGM is concerned, whether they know it or not.
(I heard an interesting take on CLC’s treatment of CJ by my former pastor who is an SGM interim and now new board member, btw. Not what I read here or heard from others.)
So, most reading here think Dave Harvey was a master spinmeister and apologist for CJ in how he ran the SGM blog during the height of the ‘CJ crisis’ — but I suspect it wasn’t fiercely loyal enough to suit CJ. I suspect Harvey allowed too many suggestions that there just might be some legitimacy in some concerns, too much waffling, too much allowing *gasp* MERE PEOPLE to comment. *shudder*
Well, CJ promptly shut that down when he retook the reins. Harvey is marginalized is an oh-so-politic way, and CJ won’t make Harvey’s mistakes. Now, with SIL ensconced as Comm Director, he will tightly control the one-way flow of information to be all things glowingly CJ-worthy.
What a racket.
June 13th, 2012 at 10:10 am
With all its nepotism and inbreeding, the Mahaney clan will eventually be like the Phelps family, roaming the country and carrying signs that say “God Hates Survivor Blogs!”
June 13th, 2012 at 10:21 am
The prior Communications Director for SGM was Andrew Mahr. He left SGM in April 2012 and now works for Domain7. I have no idea if he quit or was fired. (Maybe he didn’t want to move to Louisville?)
http://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmahr
June 13th, 2012 at 10:33 am
Interesting stuff, Argus!
I think Tony saw the writing on the wall and got out early.
I am one of those who don’t understand the slow an accommodating approach to CJ and his continued machinations. CLC AND Fairfax don’t want to be seen as pushing anything or forcing anything. I think they believe that just allowing things to work themselves out will best serve the people…meaning it wont drive anyone off. CLC and Fairfax wont have to purposely decide to leave…they wont have to be the party that acted first…and they feel this will be the path to keeping the most members. Plus time. Time heals some wounds and over time many people will detox from the kool-aid and see things for what they are. So while I too wonder why they wont call CJ on anything, I see the reasoning behind the “no-action” response.
I hope you share the interesting take on CLC’s treatment of CJ. I didn’t think there was anything we hadn’t heard yet.
Harvey was never the spinmeister. He was like a Tokyo Rose. He was the mouthpiece of the governing authority, CJ. He was never calling the shots. It was always CJ. He may have done a few things off the cuff when CJ was speaking out of town or on vacation or otherwise indisposed, but all of this has been and always will be written, directed and produced by CJ Mahaney.
We don’t see him because a)CJ is no longer limited in what he can say and do, and b)Harvey’s own mess has made him unable to lead the charge. And besides, if you are going to need a puppet to announce things, why not have it done by a family member? Easier to contact, easier to control, keeps the money in the family, cements control. Harvey is out and Bradshaw is in.
Look for the other two SiLs to come aboard in a couple of years. They are in school now but as soon as they graduate they will be needing spots. That will be about the time CJ’s new church will have grown enough to need a couple more Pastors. (Although the one from Fairfax has eyes for his own church so we will see how that all works out.
June 13th, 2012 at 12:38 pm
intheNickoftime #136
The other SIL who was interning at CHBC, he has already been hired as pastor at the new Louisville church to serve under CJ.
June 13th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
SamMcGee @135 — Ah, yes! You are correct. Andrew Mahr was the Communication Director, and what an unenviable position that was! I felt sorry for him being stuck in that spot. I did not realize he was gone. “Another one bites the dust” in a long line of C.J. Mahaney-related ministry casualties. Many people in C.J.’s wake either reach the point where they’ve had enough and leave voluntarily, or C.J. decides for one reason or another that they are no longer useful.
Tony Reinke was officially something like “editorial and research assistant” to CJ — what I called his ghost writer.
I guess with both positions emptied, SIL has a cozy spot now.
June 13th, 2012 at 1:12 pm
For those who think that your pastor is NOT being influenced by CJ Mahaney and SGM … please don’t be naive. This past week a pastor in the NorthEast dished out TWO Al Mohler quotes during his sermon.
The quotes were fine, nothing wrong there, but as those who are aware know, Al Mohler and CJ Mahaney are best buds and will soon be neighbors in Kentucky. First start the godly quotes … next will be the “godly” influences of Mohler and the continuing “godly” influences of Mahaney.
The point is, YOUR PASTOR IS influenced by SGM … What CJ does MATTERS!
Coming to a church sermon near you!
June 13th, 2012 at 1:46 pm
Interesting new blog post by someone on SGM:
http://inehemiah.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/a-few-thoughts-on-sovereign-grace-ministries-sgm/
I know nothing about the blog or blogger.
With regard to Tony Reinke I both posted on his blog and emailed him abut the SGM controversy. He never responded to my emails or comments nor allowed any of my posts that I am aware of to be posted.
My take is that Reinke was very “political” about what happened to his former boss.
June 13th, 2012 at 1:52 pm
Did anyone who posts here attend Cov Fel last sunday, apparently honor was restored to two former SGM pastors, AR and BP…..
June 13th, 2012 at 4:11 pm
CoraSusie -
That is sad. Who is paying his salary? Is there a church yet? Oh, maybe if it is a church plant then the money is coming from SGM? Although, I have not heard any news of that church plant via SGM. I imagine all the SILs will be employed by SGM or an affiliated local church.
June 13th, 2012 at 4:28 pm
So Aaron and Bill Patton’s honor was restored as pastors?! So that means that Dave Harvey and company were wr..wr…wry…wr…wrong! Impossible! Dave was an apostle at the time. Apostles can’t be wrong can they?
Back to Aaron and Bill,,, did Harvey give Bill back his role as Senior Pastor (that Harvey gladly filled). Did the church PAY Aaron and Bill restitution for taking their honor away from them???
Or was this just a patting on the back to say that we are sorry and have a nice day?!
June 13th, 2012 at 4:35 pm
Sylvia,
I can relate, I was once like you. Please understand that these aren’t just bitter sinners lashing out in their backsliding sinfulness, but the outcry of a great many injured Christians. So please give pause in your assessment. As far as suffering and persecution -- Peter reminds us not to suffer for doing evil. I don’t see what SGM is going through as suffering -- they aren’t suffering for spreading the gospel. I’m not about to tear a man down for doing that. But as far as twisting the gospel, mismanaging the sheep (to put it lightly) -- it needs to be corrected and the injured need to be tended to. The very shepherds need to understand that their call for honor and obedience takes a back seat to the the primary role they are called to… care for the Lord’s sheep.
Also as an aside -- I thought about yet another foul on SGM’s history. The usurping of authority. God ordained authorities, such as Government and LE -- that which is set up to restrain and punish evil. The pastors attempted to intercept that with their superior “counseling.” It’s grieving to see the outcome of the tragedies… it makes me very sad. But Jesus IS alive and will perfect us, welcome us, and wipe away all tears.
June 13th, 2012 at 5:55 pm
somewhereintime, it wasn’t Aron, but Alan Redrup.
June 13th, 2012 at 8:00 pm
Bridget @ 142:
I would assume SG is paying right now. Unless things have changed, in the past, SGM has helped bear the financial burden for at least the first year of a church plant. I am not sure what percentage, but it would help the church till they could get established.
What I find odd, if the above is still the case, for the first time ever, you have the president of SG planting a church. The lines will seem so blurred. I don’t trust them.
This church is being created as the model. I’ve also been told Kauflin, Purwell and Ricucci will be elders there. That is not a surprise but just confirming the perfect church they are after, stacking it with SG employees.
June 13th, 2012 at 8:53 pm
Redrup was beloved by everyone. He had a true pastor’s heart and was the one pastor everybody felt like they could talk to. We loved him very much. Everybody did. He had the rare objective ability to admit how CJ came off in the pulpit- harsh, abusive, demanding- even while assuring us how wonderful CJ really was.
His teens were not perfect (well, maybe Sarah was). They had some typical teen boy antics. Alan got the ax under the pretense that his gifts did not fit. Everybody was stunned. He seemed far more gifted than the other pastors, at least in ways that really mattered. PDI screwed him over big time.
That was how I looked at it. Redrup the poor victim.
Then I read Deb Baker’s account of getting the boot over the Ezzo material on how to beat your baby into sanctification and whack your toddler 40 times a day. (and yeah, I do believe in limited moderate spankings). You can google it and how CovFel kicked them out. Type in Debra Baker and Ezzo.
No apology yet. Redrup was part of that mess. So now I wonder. A lot of time has gone by and people change, but where are the apologies? I don’t know what to think anymore. Were they just fallen siners like the rest of us, or false shepherds from the top down? Was Redrup the wonderful guy he seemed to be? Or not? What about the Bakers? Why no public CovFel statement about being wrong about Ezzos?
SGM has a lot to answer for, and so far they don’t seem to be answering.
June 13th, 2012 at 9:15 pm
It certainly is a step in the right direction for Cov Fell to offer some type of apology/clarification to two of their pastors.
I imagine it will be hard Cov Fell to admit what they did to Debra Baker. After they have for so long denied any wrong doing it will be hard for them to “eat crow” and admit their sin Of course with God all thins are possible.
It certainly is something that with all CFC being so right about Ezzo teaching at least two of their leaders have had “problems” with their teenage children. Apparently Ezzo wasn’t as “fool proof” as they seeme to suggest it was or maybe CFC just can’t accept what happens during teenage years with some kids especially boys.
It is sad how CFC has selectively chosen to disqualify some leaders when their teenage children have problems.
June 13th, 2012 at 9:22 pm
Bridget/Cora Susie
With regard to who is paying for the church plant, it wouldn’t surprise me if C.J. Mahaney is drawing a salary for being the pastor of this church plant in KY while still receiving his full salary for being the leader of SGM. This is pure speculation but just wouldn’t surprise me.
June 13th, 2012 at 9:23 pm
CovFel Past,
Yes, the ezzo vs. the Baker’s thing should never be forgotten and must be addressed at some point, and in my opinion, no one should step foot in Covenant Fellowship until it is. It is one of the most screwed up issues i have ever heard of in SGM, 2nd, of course, to the child abuse cover-ups that have been discussed here. What was taught about discipline and feeding schedules, and whatever else, was appalling enough, but to dis-fellowship a family for questioning it, well, it makes me feel like screaming!!!!
My wife used to hang w/ several “high up” ladies in the church and witnessed the 40 spankings thing (3 or 4 at a time, multiple times) often, for the tiniest infractions that are normal to all children… It was child abuse in my opinion, and yet, we did it too, to a much much lesser degree, for a short time, until the light bulb blinked above our heads.. We did it because Marty taught it… and we believed him, and wanted to be teachable, and faithful to do what our leaders believed was best…
Frankly, i think some of these folks maybe should spend some time in the big house, and at the very least should be on their knees repenting to the church….
If a baby is screaming because he/she is hungry, feed that baby -- it is not about forcing an innocent little babe to get on your schedule -- if your D**n schedule is sooo freaking important, maybe you should not have babies….
And if you believe in spanking, reserve it for the most serious infractions, like putting a finger into an electrical outlet, not because your child did not look a stranger in the eye and say hello!!! yes, this type of “sin” is often why a young child often gets a multiple beating!!!