It can be sort of amusing and sad at the same time, to see what the defenders of Sovereign Grace Ministries have to say about this site. Sometimes how they say it is even sadder and more amusing. I typically don’t quote email without the sender’s express permission, but because my correspondent, whom we’ll call “Sylvia,” specifically said she wanted her email addressed on the site, I figured it’d be OK to share. Here goes. Keep in mind, everything is quoted exactly as it was written.
Dear Kris,
Please take the time to read the following I wish to address on your blog.I have been attending a soverign grace church for half my life. A friend informed of your blog and I was shocked to read it. Percuscion of the church by a christian! You say your a christian but you tear down another church. Your a modern day percustor. In regards to the C.J. Maheany siuation I have to say D**n! I mean we’re all sinners. That’s the D**n point of the gospel. Therefore C.J. is a sinner, and needs grace. Good luck finding a church with a sinless pastor there.
I’m not changing my beliefs but as long you yant about how you don’t like homeschooled familes and saty-at-home daughters I am going to be mad. It’s a biblical view of how the church and the people should be.
I want to be a loving sister in Christ but I highly doubt your in Christ at all. Let’s be loving. Lets be how the bible calls us to be.
I’d love to hear back from you.
Sylvia
—————————–
In other news, I received the following from Lu Webb:
Hello Fellow Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I am Lu Webb, and like you, am a friend and longtime recipient of Brent Detwiler’s pastoral care. Though I am initiating this communication to you on my own accord, I do have Brent’s permission to do so.
Brent will soon be reaching his third anniversary of being unemployed from any meaningful full-time employment-hardly a cause for celebration! Several months ago I asked him how he was doing financially. Though Brent received a severance package from his last church employment, it obviously has not nearly been enough to cover his basic expenses since, nor can we expect it to. Since his separation from SGM, Brent and Jenny have been forced to deplete their savings and retirement accounts while Brent has felt called to expose and address the wrongs and injustices he feels God has revealed to him. I don’t need to remind you that this has been not only for the benefit of those directly involved, but also for those of us in the body of Christ. Brent has worked when and where he could while simultaneously holding SGM and those in its leadership positions accountable. Sometimes it was a voice crying in the wilderness.
Data gathered reveals that tens of thousands have read his materials and thousands have claimed to be helped through Brent’s written efforts over the last 3 years. SGM wikileaks alone is coming up on 100,000 hits.
Brent purposed to not place commercial advertising on his blog. He has never begged for money or charged a fee for access to his materials. All free. He did not want anyone to reject his writings on the basis of thinking he wrote them for money and was taking advantage of the situation.
He and Jenny have been through so much! One can only imagine the temptation to utter despair at the prospects of having dedicated more than 30 years of one’s life to a ministry and then be faced with evidence of betrayal, misrepresentation, slander, and isolation from friends, brothers-in-Christ, colleagues, and even family. Yet, he has persevered to ferret out the truth and reveal to us the nature of the emperor’s clothes. This “ministry” comes at a cost.
Brent is not perfect. He has admitted to his failures in leadership and practice. Who of us could stand up under the avalanche they’ve endured?
I am compelled by the Holy Spirit to write my fellow brothers and sisters to prayerfully consider giving a financial gift to the Detwilers to help them recover some of the financial losses they have incurred over the last 3 years. We all have been served so faithfully for decades by Brent as a pastor, teacher, apostle, counselor, and friend in many circumstances. Can we now serve them when they need us most?
Please know that helping them is not a statement of complete support or agreement with Brent or all he’s written. You may wish to consider it an act of mercy. You can be assured that your name will be kept in strict confidence under all circumstances. Neither I nor the Detwilers will interpret their financial help as unconditional approval, just an act of benevolence and care.
Time is running short before the Detwiler’s will be literally bankrupt. I am asking that you prayerfully consider agreeing with me that we will be led by the Spirit in not allowing the Detwiler’s to continue to be victimized. Some have attacked Brent publicly asking why he just doesn’t go out and get a job. With our current economy I don’t have to tell you that there are few prospects for a nearly 60 year-old man who has been in ministry his entire working life for a very unique “denomination” that blackballed him from his last employment.
There are three ways we can help the Detwiler family financially:
1. Prayerfully consider giving a one-time gift by check either directly to them at their home address or through Alethia Ministries.
Your donations to Alethia will be tax-deductible in that Alethia is a non-profit organization. A receipt for your donation will be sent to you for tax purposes.
2. Prayerfully consider giving benevolence using the Paypal button on BrentDetwiler.com. In addition, if you have the means, consider giving on a monthly recurring basis as the Spirit leads.
3. Enjoin others that you know have been touched by the Detwiler family and ask them to consider this as well.(by blog, email or phone call)
Please note that I am not communicating that we set Brent up with a salary for the rest of his life. I am simply suggesting that we come along side a brother and sister in need and help them get back on their feet.
Acts 2:44-47 exhorts us all to be a peculiar people in that we demonstrate our love not as the world would, but, as people sharing all in common with glad and generous hearts. Please read this passage as you consider my request and ask yourself is this an opportunity for you as well to stand up and be counted when the needs of our brother are serious. What the world sees as a painful, interruptive sacrifice the Spirit views as gladness and joy.
Finally…..
John 15:12 – ” This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you”.
Brent’s Address:
Brent Detwiler
278 Arrow Point Lane
Davidson, NC. 28036
Alethia Ministries
278 Arrow Point Lane
Davidson, NC. 28036
If you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to call or write.
Sincerely,
Lu Webb
June 13th, 2012 at 9:58 pm
wondering if Oswald is out of town or something…he’d have the information on Cov Fel.
June 13th, 2012 at 10:22 pm
Has anyone else run across the teaching that there are children, and there are men & women, but nothing in between? I heard a pastor say this once (ok, the Cov Fel children’s pastor referenced above), and it deeply perplexed me. Has anyone else heard it, and knows what it means? Is this a common SGM view that teens are not a set apart group?
June 13th, 2012 at 10:40 pm
MAK #151 — Thanks for thinking of me. I’ve not missed a day of reading, but have not had much to add, so I’ve kept quiet. Seems as if everything has been said and we can just wait on the LORD. Redrup and Patton are good examples of this.
Concerning the CovFel family meeting on Sunday, it was very moving to see and hear. I never was a member under either Bill Patton or Alan Redrup but have heard many good things about them both. Dave Harvey gave the apologies and was very emotional, very sorry in doing so. And yes, Dave did say ‘We were wrong’, more than once. He apologized to the wives and the families as well as the men. Both men spoke after the apologies and one thing sticks in my mind…Alan Redrup said how very freeing and satisfying(my words)it was to hear Dave say that he was qualified for ministry. It was very moving and sad to know that this man has been laboring under this accusation for all these 15 years. How can that ever be repaid. And Bill Patton’s son, also a SGM pastor in Delaware, was there to offer support to his dad.
I’ve thought I should email my Sr guy and ask if these men will be reinstated to their former positions any time soon; or will they be getting back-pay. These are two TRULY humble men and would probably refuse both. They have been faithful to CovFel through all this time. I wonder if they spoke to AoR and were some of those who had nothing bad to say. I believe they really hold NO grudges. We can only know that God has ways of working in these kinds of situations, and He will restore the years that the locusts have eaten.
June 13th, 2012 at 11:17 pm
Oswald
Maybe Bill could at least lead worship again. We would come back to a service to experience that. I still cherish the live CD on which he is the worship leader. One thing the men can’t get back is their youth. I think their experiences aged them considerably (besides the normal changes with getting older).
June 13th, 2012 at 11:24 pm
Oswald, thanks for this information. This is very good news. What input did the Sr. P have in all this?
June 13th, 2012 at 11:25 pm
I appreciate the kind words with respect to the circumstances at CovFel, no one is holding her breath waiting for apologies.
AR was involved in the Baker/Ezzo fiasco.
He predicted the demise of our marriage because we didn’t agree with his belief that the husband-wife relationship always trumped the parent-child relationship. He said our marriage wouldn’t last ten years.
He also had the audacity to call Pat after we had been dismembered in order to command us not to discuss the situation with the press.
All that being said, his children were normal kids and he was, in my opinion, mistreated by PDI/SGM. I am glad both Bill P. and Alan R. have been restored, it was long overdue and the right thing to do.
I guess as with everything in SGM-ville, the leadership get the first fruits, I hope some of the dregs trickle down to the common people. I, as the metaphoric dog, do not expect even crumbs off their table but that wound has finally healed and, again, I thank those that recognize the injustice which is affirming in itself.
June 14th, 2012 at 12:49 am
Post 150, I can confirm that I have seen that with my own eyes when I said hello to a cov fel pastors child (4-5) yr old and the child didn’t say hi back and the child received a spanking
All this talk of nepotism is 100% true too obviously, its prevalent in who are the care group leaders at cov fel.
June 14th, 2012 at 6:58 am
Oswald,
Did Dave mention that the problems with Bill’s and Alan’s families were no worse than the problems with his family, so it was inconsistent in the history of the church that they got the boot and he didn’t? Oh, but wait, didn’t they call it “pride” for the two of them? It makes you think, what was their motivation for kicking men out back in the day? Where they trying to achieve some type of pastoral perfection?
Sorry I’ve been commenting so much. I’m mostly a lurker, but this is our old church, so it hits home.
June 14th, 2012 at 8:15 am
Someone mentioned Alan Redrup being a wonderful pastor and him doing nothing wrong. I love Alan. Great big leters LOVE. And I suspect I will love Alan to my dying day. He had a true pastor’s heart for me. But there are others who are not so lucky and whom have been harmed by him in big ways, too. Alan was still working within an abusive system and yes, it did effect him and his counseling. I only bring this up because I don’t think it’s fair to those who were harmed to stand by and say nothing.
I knew about Cov Fel’s apology to Alan and fam before it happened, but didn’t want to say anything on here, given how Cov Fel has changed their tune at the last moment in the past. I don’t know how it went as I was kicked out of there years back (in part for standing up for Alan and telling Cov Fel that they need to pray about what they did to Alan. (I tell you, I love him and Linda) And yes, it was Bill Patton who kicked me and my family to the curb.
I would be rejoicing over their apology to Alan and Bill except I believe God made it clear to me about four years ago that I should not be looking to see what SGM does to the “big guys” but to “the least of these”. “The least of these” is the ones Jesus championed, not the ones who would bring the most PR. When “the least” has been repented to and restored, then I’ll believe there has been a heart change.
June 14th, 2012 at 9:15 am
Oswald said:
Perhaps this is why these men were given an apology and “restored” (if that could even happen) is because they were still around at CFC. They won’t do this for others that have left or were forced to leave such as D. Baker.
Another possibility is that they are doing this “apology” as a means of being able to allow Dave Harvey to remain in leadership despite him having similar problems with his teenagers. People have been bringing up a this apparent double standard so rather than making Dave Harvey step down, do an apology and allow Harvey to remain in his position.
It is also possible that now that Harvey has teenagers and is experiencing them first hand that he sees this side. It is easy for someone to say keep your teenage kids under control etc. when they have never had their own teenagers to raise. Now Harvey has experienced this first hand including some rebellious actions similar to those that disqualified other leaders such as those 2 men.
Just some thoughts.
June 14th, 2012 at 10:21 am
CoraSusie in 146 -
How right you are. You said,”
SGM/Sending church pays for two pastors to go out on a plant. But now the question is bifurcated. Is CJ really a pastor planting a church or is he the Pres of SGM establishing a new office in Ky. Truth is he supposedly performs both functions, technically. So should he get financial support for both activities? He obviously wont be doing two things simultaneously. When he is pastoring he wont be forging SGM business. And when he is doing SGM business he wont be serving the sheep under his care. So really his job is 50% pastor and 50% President, so his salary should be 50% of what a pastor would get and 50% of what the pres should get. But we all know that CJ has not done real pastor stuff in decades. He has not done the person-to-person work of a regular pastor in decades, if ever. He has always been the guy up front but seldom been the one to visit at the hospital and handle a potential divorce situation. So realistically, although he may be receiving remuneration for being a pastor we all know it will be his son in law that does the bulk of the real pastor work. (But then if you get a job on the coat tails of your father in law you always have to live with him getting all the glory and approbation while you do all the work.)
BUT…
Now that he is down there in Ky where the cost of living is soooo much lower should SGM be paying him the same that they paid him when he was in high dollar county? I guess since he is the Pres and runs things, he gets to decide what he is to be paid and how he is to be paid. It was like that before when Detwiler was nipping at his heels and trying to keep him accountable (remember when CJ wanted plane tickets covered for his son?) so just imagine how it will be with a spineless, kool-aid drinking, hand picked board “keeping him accountable”.
And if he is running SGM AND planting a new church who is doing the work when CJ is off speaking at one of his many conferences (which, by the way, he is getting paid by SGM AND collecting a gratuity). Who serves the sheep when he is flying all around the country?
After 20 years with CLC CJ and SGM have worked things through and finally arrived on what they think is the best way to run a church and PC. So they run to Ky to duplicate it. But things like that don’t duplicate well. Their experience before was a complex web of people and plant. No one gives CLC the credit they deserve for being the lab where future pastors were trained (indoctrinated). Families that have known each other for years and worked with each other and the pastors for years operate with a smoothness that doesn’t just happen. CJ wont be able to duplicate that in Ky, ESPECIALLY since he doesn’t have any members for his new church yet! PLUS, he intends to involve Mohler and the Seminary so there is a new wrinkle. Better? Worse? We will have to wait and see but you just dont duplicate the likes of CLC and the Pastor’s College on a whim.
And the thing that made SGM grow so quickly and widely was not CJ and Kauflin and Ricucci and Pursewell. It was Detwiler and Che and Tomaczak and all those guys as well. Plus it was all the people that were part of the movement. You cant cherry pick your favorite leaders, transplant them to a place with lower cost of living and expect to duplicate things. It is like taking a great product and sending it over to India to be made more cheaply. It is like sucking up all the best guys from all the NBA teams and putting them together on one dream team. It just doesnt work like that.
SOMEONE needs to ask for an accounting. I see a lot of donated money going to the Mahaney clan. CLC cant ask because they FINALLY stopped supporting this nonsense. But one of the churches that is still sending money to SGM needs to ask for an accounting to see what all this change is costing the family of churches. What are they getting for their tithes and offerings. How is all this move pushing the cause for Christ into the wider world.
June 14th, 2012 at 11:25 am
How SGM works and what the motivation is, is a mystery. What happens with one man doesn’t happen to another. Perfect example is Jared Mellinger. He is the son of a SGM pastor and as a teen was very rebellious; details are not pretty. Yet, his father, Ken was not de-gifted, and he seems to be a very humble man. He sought help from Dave Harvey for his parenting of Jared back in the day. And now Jared is a Sr Pastor and well liked within SGM leadership, he’s on the polity committee. So there must be more to all this than what is seen, or they make it up as they go along, depending on the pastor and his response to his own family problems.
June 14th, 2012 at 11:38 am
Steve240 #160 — You said “Another possibility is that they are doing this “apology” as a means of being able to allow Dave Harvey to remain in leadership despite him having similar problems with his teenagers. People have been bringing up this apparent double standard so rather than making Dave Harvey step down, do an apology and allow Harvey to remain in his position.”
My thoughts, also. When Dave told his sad tale at the family meeting at CovFel recently, it was mentioned that they would be talking about BP and AR at a future meeting. It’s as if the knew that this was coming to mind for MANY who were in attendance then. Sunday’s meeting HAD to happen to continue what was begun at the previous meeting, to keep the natives from becoming restless.
June 14th, 2012 at 11:47 am
Add to my #163 — It was mentioned at Sunday’s family meeting that they were acting in response to guidance from the AoR report in making past mistakes right, with repentance and forgiveness expressed as appropriate.
June 14th, 2012 at 11:50 am
SGM Pastors,
You do realize that YOU will have to give an accounting of yourself to our Savior when you meet Him face-to-face?
Will you be able to tell HIM (not CJ … not Dave … not Mickey,etc.) that you did YOUR BEST in confronting the issue of what has taken place within Soverign Grace and PARTICULARLY, its effects on the church that the Lord (not CJ … not Dave … not MIckey) has put under your leadership?
Why are you so silent?
Why won’t you stand up to the SIN that is taking place here with them?
Many “lambs” within the church have done so.
Where are the Soverign Grace pastors???
When will you call CJ in account? … or will you continue to quote him and Al Mohler and the rest during your Sunday sermons?
June 14th, 2012 at 12:00 pm
I was thinking about SGM’s move and the church CJ is planting, and it occurred to me that it’s going to be VERY interesting to watch this whole Kentucky experiment unfold.
Despite all his talk of humility, it’s clearer now than ever that CJ has a way larger-than-life ego and truly still does not bow or bend to anyone. For years, CJ was able to disguise his lack of formal accountability, hiding it behind his membership at CLC and his supposed submission to his authorities there. But the reality is that when the rubber hit the road and CJ and his CLC leaders had different opinions about CJ’s behavior, CJ never submitted to them whatsoever and -- well, quite literally, when the rubber hit the road, CJ hit the road.
And now CJ is starting something totally brand-new, from the ground up. Yes, he has assembled quite the “dream team” to get this Chia Church going. And yes, CJ has the celebrity name and appeal to draw a large audience, at least initially. But…I would surmise that at least some of the members of CJ’s team might also have their own ego issues. Sure, they’ve all long been conditioned to kowtow to CJ, but each in his own way has achieved personal recognition apart from CJ. And I just wonder how it’s all going to unfold, as they attempt to “just add water” and presto, create an Insta-Church.
I especially wonder how it’s going to unfold as the new SGM congregation inevitably siphons off members from other surrounding churches. We all know that SGM church plants have never built up their congregations from adding new believers. No! SGM churches historically have always poached already-believing Christians from other Bible-believing, gospel-proclaiming churches. The new Kentucky SGM church is not going to be any different in that respect. How can it be, when it’s going to be located smack dab in the middle of Mohler country, where there are already dozens of “good” churches?
More to the point, this new SGM church is banking on attracting people because CJ will be its pastor. And CJ’s star power is primarily among longtime believers, people who have been Christians for a long time and who have tired of “business as usual” and are looking for “something more.” So of course this new SGM congregation will be comprised primarily of seminary students (who would otherwise have attended other already-existing area churches) and Christians who have left other churches to follow CJ’s star.
In the long term, how can such a church be anything but divisive? Especially when we already know that this new SGM church is springing up because CJ simply could not submit to his supposed leaders over at CLC and chose to bail, taking as many of his talented followers along with him as he could?
Like I said -- this is going to be an interesting little drama.
June 14th, 2012 at 12:58 pm
Very good point, Kris. There are literally dozens of Reformed churches in Louisville. There are Reformed churches there that put out their own music, such as Sojourn Community Church. There are Reformed churches there that head up church planting movements, such as Sojourn again. There are Reformed churches that cater to upper middle class professional people. There’s more than one Reformed Baptist church in the style of Capitol Hill Baptist. There are Reformed Baptist churches that are somewhat tolerant of charismatic gifts.
There are also several large Christian (as in Church of Christ) churches. There are large Assemblies of God. There are large, pre-existing Christian schools.
I don’t see how someone coming in from DC will create a niche in Louisville that hasn’t already been filled by a church pastored by either a Kentucky native or someone who has lived in the city a few years.
What’s the selling point going to be?
June 14th, 2012 at 1:01 pm
There are also “un-Reformed” Baptist churches in Louisville…
:Happy-Grin:
June 14th, 2012 at 1:16 pm
Oswald said (in response to my post):
It is good that even at CFC that members were seeing the double standard of Harvey not stepping down while they have required others to step down.
Isn’t it sad how they change standards when there is someone they want to keep in place?
With regard to nepotism I use to explain that one of the reasons various prominent SGM family members (like those from FL) would get on here and defend SGM is that it was they were protecting their family business.
When I see C.J. appointing one of his son in laws in a prominent position in SGM then it just reinforces that to me. A lot of the family members want to protect the opportunity thew will get to be an SGM Pastor and all its benefits. They won’t have to earn the position; it is like a birth right or they can marry into it.
June 14th, 2012 at 2:03 pm
“Chia church” !
:)
June 14th, 2012 at 10:27 pm
For what it’s worth, here is what the founder of the Sojourn family of churches had to say about SGM’s move to Louisville:
http://daniel-montgomery-sojourn.com/sovereign-grace-moving-to-louisville-what-does-sojourn-think/
June 14th, 2012 at 10:34 pm
Those guys are always “dear” friends. Hmmmmmmm….
and this comment on that blog: “Those areas are really overchurched and undergospeled.” …..oh. wow. what a judgment.
June 14th, 2012 at 11:10 pm
That comment about “overchurched and undergospeled” was about west and southwest Louisville. Those are the poor parts of the city. There are plenty of churches there but not Reformed ones.
I’d rather see SGM go to some other part of the city. Those poor people on the west end have enough problems to deal with already.
June 15th, 2012 at 10:16 am
Ellie, I agree with you that that comment was a judgmental, even if unintentionally so. West Louisville is largely minority, very poor, and lately even more violent than has been usual (sad that I can describe the violence in that area as “normal”). Southwest Louisville is largely white and working class. That you could describe these areas as “overchurched and undergospeled” is presumptuous at best and arrogant at worst. It assumes that your church has all the answers and if those silly people would just get with the program their problems would go away. That being said, I think it’s a moot point. If I remember correctly, the plant is supposedly going to be in the vicinity of SBTS, which is just a little east of downtown. But I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up in the east end. That’s where (generally) the affluent people are and that’s where most of the available land is. It’s also home to some pretty good sized congregations already, including an 18,000+ megachurch. I suppose we’ll see how it all pans out.
June 15th, 2012 at 10:57 am
CJ currently lives in one the wealthiest sections of town, in Goshen Estates so, I hardly think he will step-down in style, down in L’ville. And, if history repeats itself, he will move into a home, near the Kauflins, Purswells and Ricucci’s. SGMers tend to form enclaves, with multiple generations, living under one roof.
The neighborhood the Kauflins moved from had about 20 CLC families w/in easy walking distance. And, CJ and Josh live in the same neighborhood, right now. long ago, CJ and Larry lived a few blocks apart, as well. But, CJ hates living in a fish bowl so, he will also probably look for a house that offers privacy.
It will be interesting to watch as the churches in L’ville discover the truth about SGM. I have a strong feeling that CJ has jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire.
June 15th, 2012 at 10:59 am
I posted a comment on the Daniel Montgomery blog and after initially appearing it disappeared. That really didn’t surprise me but people should know the blog owner is censoring and only allowing some comments.
June 15th, 2012 at 11:18 am
Persona said
We can only hope that this happens sooner or later though I would guess that it might not happen till various Louisville churches start getting battered sheep from their experience with CJ’s Louisville chuch.
Regarding Kris’s comment 166 you just might be right about:
I imagine the tensions will be higher and impact of those egos will be higher on a church plant then they experienced when running a para church ministry and with C.J. being away some of the time speaking etc. It will be interesting to see what affect this increased tension has and what fallout it produces.
June 15th, 2012 at 11:30 am
Persona, actually C.J. and Carolyn have purchased a fairly modest townhouse (as for privacy: two shared walls!) in the Norton Commons neighborhood. Very nice neighborhood, but not exactly Anchorage or Glenview. It’s about 25 minutes away from the Kauflin’s place in the Polo Fields, again, a neighborhood with some very upscale homes but also some very moderately priced ones ($190s-250s). I think we probably should steer clear of making assumptions based on where the leadership lives, how much they paid for the home, etc. Those things are largely irrelevant. The really troubling aspects of SGM have been well-documented here and over at Refuge, and they far outweigh any insinuations we might draw from where someone bought a house. I DO understand where you’re coming from though. It’s tough not to be cynical when it comes to this crowd’s motives.
June 15th, 2012 at 12:53 pm
Craig
I am assuming you are talking about C.J. & Carolyn’s new house in Louisville area? Last I heard C.J.’s house here in MD hasn’t sold. It must be nice to be able to buy one house before your old house hasn’t sold.
Correct me if I am wrong here.
June 15th, 2012 at 1:02 pm
I have no idea as to the status of their house in Maryland, but it’s possible they were able to do a bridge loan on the new one. I’m a Louisville resident myself, but the info on the new house is a matter of public record. The Jefferson Co. Clerk’s office posts all info pertaining to real estate transactions in their online land records.
June 15th, 2012 at 1:25 pm
Hey Steve240,
I was informed by a pastor at CovLife that C.J.’s house has sold. I wonder if Sojourn will be singing the praises of SGM at this time next year.
June 15th, 2012 at 1:33 pm
Craig
With the money we have seen C.J. Mahaney has I really doubt he needed a bridge loan. Anyone that can afford to fund his SIL and daughter the money for an expensive baby adoption $50K plus I doubt would need a bridge loan.
June 15th, 2012 at 4:32 pm
LofCLC
Tough to say what supporters will be saying once the plant has been up and going for a while, but it certainly wouldn’t surprise me to see Sojourn and SGM on the same team. Phrases like “overchurched, undergospeled” set off warning bells for me. I know what they mean by it (or at least, I think I do), but it strikes me as more than a bit smug and presumptuous. It also smacks of the same type of charged, in-crowd lingo that SGM is famous for. Don’t be shocked if these guys are still locked arm in arm next year.
Steve240
I wouldn’t presume to know, but I admit it does seem odd. Look up the information for yourself if it interests you; you will more than likely find it a bit of a head-scratcher.
June 15th, 2012 at 6:02 pm
I think it’s a mistake to think that people in SBTS circles have any idea about what’s happened in SGM. Most probably do not know there is any split Mahaney and Harris. Daniel Montgomery of Sojourn might know the gist of it but likely cannot afford to alienate SBTS. I don’t know about “locked arm and arm” but if you’re looking to see open hostility it’s not going to happen.
A lot of the Southern Baptist churches in Louisville are not enamoured of SBTS. Of course, quite a few churches have left the SBC and are CBF now but I am referring to mainstream conservative Southern Baptist churches. That’s where I think you’ll find hostility toward CJ crop up.
June 15th, 2012 at 9:59 pm
Steve 240 #160 “Another possibility is that they are doing this “apology” as a means of being able to allow Dave Harvey to remain in leadership despite him having similar problems with his teenagers. People have been bringing up a this apparent double standard so rather than making Dave Harvey step down, do an apology and allow Harvey to remain in his position.”
Harvey’s problems with his children have reached beyond the teenage years..but it isn’t so much an issue with his children, rather, it is an issue of how he handles it. He has had a way of eliminating anything controversial from his presence and the presence of those around him so everything in his immediate world seems fine! Unfortunately, the fallout of his choices and actions have hurt way too many….
June 16th, 2012 at 1:02 am
In spite of speculation about future trouble brewing in Louisville, I expect everyone will pour heart and soul into creating a model ‘community’ and will enjoy a nice lovely ‘honeymoon’ period for quite some time.
Anyone who isn’t happy, doesn’t fit in, or makes waves will soon be marginalized or made to go away, of course — but then, it may be assumed that there was something ‘wrong’ with THEM. Everyone can be assured thaat our dear leaders did all they could, but, well, the Lord must have something else in mind.
That’s the issue, really, isn’t it? The need to create this ‘ideal’ outweighs the needs of the little people who spoil the plan. SGM ‘the Movement’ steamrolls over the people it ostensibly serves, all in the name of ‘the Gospel.’
It is as if we have a new Trinity:
the eternal sovereign Father,
the eternally-subordinate Son,
the Bride of Christ, the Church, the dearest place on earth, doing the work formerly delegated to the Holy Spirit.
June 16th, 2012 at 1:44 am
This week I was speaking to someone from Sojourn church this week and they appear to be welcoming the new SGM church plant. But, this person did not know much about the current SGM madness. Others in their church may also be ignorant.
As for the Mahaneys buying a townhouse, I wonder if they chose a neighborhood to be close to their kids and grandkids? It doesn’t seem like the ideal choice for them.
June 16th, 2012 at 9:15 am
Argus 186…great post.
June 17th, 2012 at 7:45 am
Happy Father’s Day, Guy!
June 17th, 2012 at 12:19 pm
“Nine. One. One.” “Human Wickedness and Divine Goodness”
Lord, the SGM evil pastor has triumphed! They have trampled Your Word! They have rent not their garments but Your servants, Lord! Leave them in their excrement, but deliver Your servants, Lord! In the Name Of You Son Jesus!
*
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To the SGM leader: *
*
Transgression speaks to the wicked SGM pastors deep in their hearts; there is no fear of God before their eyes.
*
For they flatter themselves in their own eyes that their iniquity cannot be found out and hated.
*
The words of their mouths are mischief and deceit; they have ceased to act wisely and do good.
*
They plot mischief while on their way to Louisville, Kentucky; they are set on a way that is not good; they do not reject evil.
*
However,
*
Your steadfast love, O LORD, extends to the heavens, your faithfulness to the clouds.
*
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your judgments are like the great deep; you save humans and animals alike, O LORD.
*
How precious is your steadfast love, O God! Let All SGM people in bondage take refuge in the shadow of your wings.
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Please let them feast on the abundance of “your” house, and you give them drink from the river of “your” delights.
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For with you ALONE is the fountain of life; in your light we see light.
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O continue your steadfast love to those who in SGM churches that do know you, and your salvation to them there that are upright of heart!
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Do not let the foot of the arrogant SGM pastor tread on your people Lord, or the hand of the SGM wicked drive them away from You!
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Let the evildoers in SGM leadership lie prostrate be for you! And set your people free!
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‘Ipr♥ay’ (In Jesus Name!)
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S㋡py!
__
*
June 17th, 2012 at 2:49 pm
I have seen pictures on facebook today of the church planting team on stage at Solid Rock Church being prayed for and all that. I did not see C.J. in the pictures but it was a group picture from a little far out so it possible that he was in there. His name was not mentioned in the caption. I looked at the picture and saw the people I have known these years who made “the great escape” to Solid Rock. I guess everyone has the right to go whatever church they want but it seems to me that some of these folks left CLC for really no good reason. As I type this I find myself shaking my head.
June 17th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
Lover 191
CJ and Carolyn are standing with their backs to the camera, in the center, beneath John Loftness, who is apparently doing the ‘sending-out’.
The Kauflins, Ricuccis, Medlers, Bradshaws, Cooks and Chesmores are represented. It was clever of CJ to use his refuge, Solid Rock, to send the team out, though everyone knows full-well that it is CJ sending himself out. Strange how he continues to make everything seem ‘normal’ and customary when the truth is far from it. Makes me wonder who the audience is he is preforming for?
Also worthy of note, is CJ’s long-time secretary, Nora Earles and her husband, who are featured in the Solid Rock congregation in that photo. They apparently will not be joining CJ, in Louisville. Wonder what the back-story of that decision was? She has been one of his most loyal employees. Perhaps she is retiring.
Josh and Kelley(Ricucci)Murphy say they will be leaving for the Charlotte church, in July. Wonder how they slipped out of their obligations to remain at CLC, their sending church at the PC, this year? I wonder if they plan to pay them back in the future? These are the kinds of questions that are typically hard to find the answer for at CLC.
June 17th, 2012 at 8:48 pm
persona 192: that issue regarding the murphys not serving at clc after graduating the PC was addressed on the member blog potion of the clc website…via a letter from the murphys as well as comments by the pastoral staff. the gist is that clc has received the benefit of pastors trained elsewhere, and we have in return sent pastors to the pc who have not ended up serving at clc. there’s no indication that they will have to “pay us back” for going to pc
June 17th, 2012 at 9:09 pm
Thanks Acme. Happy Fathers day to all you dads, or those of you that have to fill the role of dad!
June 17th, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Persona/Newbie
When the PC graduation program was printed it was still not known where the Murphy’s were going. His name was there but his destination was left blank. This must have come up just recently. I have been told that the Murphy family is a long-time Solid Rock family and are very close to Mickey Connelly (like an uncle I was told). Another all-in-the-family deal.
June 17th, 2012 at 9:52 pm
Sorry not to comment on current thread but was wondering if anyone has seen this:
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/15/12225753-jehovahs-witnesses-ordered-to-pay-more-than-20-million-to-woman-who-said-she-was-sexually-abused?lite&fb_source=message
Happymom, I thought about you as I read this.
June 17th, 2012 at 10:29 pm
Longing -
RE the story you linked to in your #196, I saw that and had the very same thought. What happened in that Jehovah’s Witness congregation (where church officials deliberately refrained from informing members about a pedophile’s history, out of fear of lawsuits) sounded VERY similar to what happened to at least a few SGMers.
June 17th, 2012 at 10:39 pm
Longing 196 and Kris 197
I had the same thoughts when I read that story online. It made me wonder if there will be some pretty heavy legal cases against SGM churches now that this case has been adjudicated.
Newbie 193 I cannot find any mention on the members’ blog about the Murphy’s deployment to Charlotte. Is it still up or, has it been taken down?
I would feel very badly about taking money from one church and going to work for another. I don’t care how much they forgive the debt. I would still want to reimburse them.
June 18th, 2012 at 12:17 am
Just read a book written by the young woman who was forced, at age 14, to marry her first cousin in the Warren Jeffs / FLDS cult. I was shocked at the parallels that can be drawn between that organization and the Happiest (Dearest) Place on Earth bunch.
Interesting that when the going got tough, Jeffs de-gifted a bunch of guys, then moved HQ to another state.
I’m not saying we’re talking that level of cultic lifestyle — just some interesting parallels.
June 18th, 2012 at 9:44 am
Demographic information from Goshen County, where Ceej and Co., I think, will be residing (please correct me if I’m wrong):
“The racial makeup of the county was 93.62% White, 4.21% Black or African American, 0.21% Native American, 0.44% Asian, 0.01% Pacific Islander, 0.55% from other races, and 0.97% from two or more races. 1.30% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.”
“The median income for a household in the county was $70,171 (2005), and the median income for a family was $70,495. Males had a median income of $46,962 versus $28,985 for females. The per capita income for the county was $25,374. About 2.90% of families and 4.10% of the population were below the poverty line, including 4.50% of those under age 18 and 6.00% of those age 65 or over. OLDHAM COUNTY IS THE MOST AFFLUENT COUNTY IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY; most residents work in Louisville and choose to live in Oldham County due to the lack of crime and the nationally recognized school system.”
Wow…look at those modern apostles go. Very rich, very white area; yep, pretty much just like what Paul and the others experienced. I bet Ceej feels like he’s back in the NT times there in the mansion.