[Kris says: I originally wrote the following as a comment, but then it struck me that it might make a better post.]
Reader “tomcov” asked,
Just wondering…there hasn’t been a new post here since early June. Any reason?
Before I start to answer this little question, I must apologize – I’m going to use the word “I” a lot in my response. I’ve often said that this site is not personal and not about Guy and me. And that remains true. We ourselves did not actually have a bad SGM experience. We have never had a personal horse in this race.
And yet – well, sometimes there’s a personal component here, simply because a person (usually me) writes the posts. And lately, on a personal level, I have been extremely fed up with many aspects of the SGM discussion.
I think it started with the much-anticipated Ambassadors of Reconciliation report. I know that many of you thought the AoR people did a great job of walking the fine line. I know that a lot of you felt they addressed the issues in a gracious and thoughtful fashion. But frankly, I thought their report sucked wind. They seemed to spend far more energy on dissing blogs and “unprofessional” moderators than on actually taking abusive SGM leaders to task. (Uh…exactly what would have constituted a satisfactory professional moderator? And more importantly, what sort of open and honest discussion can take place if some “professional” moderator is constantly evaluating and censoring comments in order to – supposedly – keep participants from sinning?)
I know some of you will shake your heads and think I’m demonstrating a whole lot of nerve to say this, but I’m going to say it anyway: I think the AoR people exhibited a breathtaking amount of legalism in their report when they spoke so much about SGM’s critics’ perceived sinfulness. If a building is on fire, does it really matter what tone of voice the person shouting “Fire!” uses?
Anyway, the AoR report disgusted me. I was filled with a personal sense of rage on a lot of levels. Ted Kober and his cohorts are blatant hypocrites. Seriously. For all their talk of “Matthew 18″ and the proper way to deal with offenses, and their holier-than-thou judgmentalism about the “sin” they thought they saw in SGM’s critics, they themselves did not even follow their own purported protocol. They felt free to write their report and trash-talk blogs and bloggers but never once initiated any sort of dialogue with me – despite the fact that I actually wrote Ted Kober twice, fairly early in the process, offering to be of help.
So yeah, I’ve been disgusted. On a personal level.
Then there’s the reinstatement of CJ to all his full former glory…the ridiculous lies out of SGM headquarters about the rationale for moving to Louisville, with the totally untruthful statements about how the move had been in the works for a long time…the polity discussions that are (wait for it) still taking place mostly behind closed doors, with little (or no?) formal official input from the average tithe-paying member…the fact that after decades of preaching the importance of allegiance to one’s “local” church, to the point where one can almost never produce a good reason to leave one’s “local” church, CJ has been able to (it would appear) breezily extricate himself from Covenant Life Church and any accountability to the leaders there and move on to start a new church…the amazing fact that CJ would try to describe blackmail as a “common” sin…the fact that CJ would even dare to paint any of his sins as “common” after building an entire reputation upon that ridiculous “worst sinner I know™” schtick…the fact that CJ’s sons-in-law received severance packages for jobs they quit…the fact that even some of the leaders who seem to be responding better to SGM’s critics are nonetheless still refusing to take full ownership of the way they themselves handled certain abuse cases…
That list is random and only very partial. I could probably spend hours writing about multiple jaw-dropping developments that don’t seem to bother too many SGMers. Too many SGMers still sit back and shrug and say, “Oh well, no church is perfect.”
And the fact is, I just do not understand this apathy. I do not understand how it is that people continue to tolerate CJ at the helm of their church organization. I do not understand, either, how it is that other non-SGM church leaders I personally respect (I’m looking at you, Kevin DeYoung) appear to be embracing CJ even more enthusiastically now than ever before.
It used to be that SGM Survivors struck people as scandalous because we talked openly about the cultural wackiness, the unspoken mandates to homeschool and practice courtship and have legalistic date nights. We were scandalous because we dared to suggest that CJ wasn’t actually accountable to anyone and might not be humble. We were scandalous because we sometimes poked fun of SGM’s self-important ways, their belief that their particular church method WAS “the gospel.”
But now, all of that stuff has basically been copped to by leaders. Nobody is coming around here and arguing any more that we’re just gossiping and making stuff up. It’s pretty much acknowledged as documented fact that many people were misled and even harmed by SGM’s “old” ways. It’s definitely documented fact that nobody dares hold CJ accountable or try to criticize him or correct him or sway him from his chosen path.
Yet what has really and truly changed?
CJ’s still the president. Major changes (cough cough POLITY cough cough) are still plotted and discussed mostly behind closed doors. Even the guys who appear to have integrity and are daring to stand for something – Josh Harris is one example - continue to couch their statements in the most affirmingly flowery syntax known to man. (Really guys – the Bible’s command to “let your conversation be gracious as well as sensible” doesn’t mean you have to be ingratiating, where you feel the need to continuously camouflage your honest feedback with gratuitous affirmations, to the point where the much-needed rebuke gets lost in a cloud of nauseating flattery.)
So – for the past few months, I’ve been disgusted with just about everything related to SGM. And the reality is, while I think I can write as well as the next person, and while I can pull off a reasonable facsimile of journalism, I’m not actually a journalist. I’m not even someone who ever wished to become a “blogger” (professional or otherwise). Back in 2007, I thought it was odd that there was no place online that portrayed SGM’s culture in a way that reflected my own experience of SGM’s culture – so Guy created a blog and I tossed up a few posts and thought that would be the end of it. As things have unfolded, I’ve been here, along for the ride. But I have never felt like I’ve been in some sort of driver’s seat. So, if something gets old for me - as the call for reform within SGM has gotten old – then I don’t feel like writing about it.
I know there have been lots of discussion-worthy developments over the past few months, but I just haven’t had the gumption to post much about them. I still read the comments every day and keep an eye on things. Sometimes I will put on my moderator hat (wonder what sort of hat a “professional” moderator wears?) and welcome newcomers or respond.
But for the moment (well, at least until just now, as I started to write this), my heart has not been in discussions about much of anything relating to SGM. I have a very full and happy life to enjoy. Contrary to what some people may think, I’m not naturally a negative or constantly suspicious person. So after awhile, pointing out the obvious gets old.
We’ll still be here to host discussions. And if there are any aspiring journalists out there who are interested in contributing stories, let me know. I’d be happy to post reader submissions relating to anything new within SGM.
Again…sorry for the personal nature of this response. But since you asked (and others have asked via email), there you go.
[And of course, whenever I've talked about my personal disinterest in the topic of SGM, that's usually right when something happens to lure me back into the fray.]
July 17th, 2012 at 9:54 am
Another old comment re: Eric Grover, but so emboldened and good! (Godly musicians sometimes sense the Spirit first?)
http://sovereigngracemusic.org/artists/eric_grover
Persona
April 19th, 2012 at 11:35 am
McGee 178
Regarding the twitter feed with CJ’s name on it but, not many actual posts by Mahaney: I love that Eric Grover left this quote for CJ to read:
“Too many who have undertaken the work of the ministry do so obstinately proceed in self-seeking, negligence, pride, and other sins, that it is become our necessary duty to admonish them. If we saw that such would reform without reproof, we would gladly forbear the publishing of their faults. But when reproofs themselves prove so ineffectual, that they are more offended at the reproof than at the sin, and had rather that we should cease reproving than that themselves should cease sinning, I think it is time to sharpen the remedy. For what else should we do? To give up our brethren as incurable were cruelty, as long as there are further means to he used.
We must not hate them, but plainly rebuke them, and not suffer sin upon them. To bear with the vices of the ministry is to promote the ruin of the Church; for what speedier way is there for the depraving and undoing of the people, than the depravity of their guides? And how can we more effectually further a reformation, than by endeavoring to reform the leaders of the Church?” — Richard Baxter
Great job, Eric.
JK@Eric Grover ~ “Couldn’t you have attended [ the conference] and avoided CJ’s talks? Or asked for explanation? Your post seems petty, though guised in piety.”>> <> 7:05 PM -- 9 Apr 12 via MetroTwit
July 17th, 2012 at 10:35 am
I appreciate the kind words…although I don’t know what to say in response. I think any one of you guys, if you found yourself in the weird place of having stumbled into a mess like SGM the way that we did, would have done pretty much the same thing.
If you really think about it, what other reaction makes any sense? Back in 2007, I tossed up a few posts about our sort of ambiguous SGM experience. I was so surprised when I checked in a day or two later and saw that several people had commented! I’d never expected that. I certainly never expected to hear anything that could be classified as outright spiritual abuse. But when more and more people began to share about their experiences, it didn’t take long for a distinct pattern to emerge.
At that point, what would any normal person do? What is the only logical response?
See, I think it would have been extraordinarily odd (stupid, even) if I would have heard the stories and read the emails (the emails are where the really bad stuff was shared) and not drawn certain conclusions about SGM. I mean, would any halfway thinking person give SGM continual benefit of the doubt?
And would any normal person not respond with empathy for the people who had been harmed by their church leaders?
I think this is what many of the SGM defenders did not grasp…and why the AoR report and the continued blind eye CJ keeps getting from his RBD cronies boggle my mind so much. The bottom line is, I know what I’ve dealt with over the past 4+ years. I know that the stories could not have been fabricated. Maybe some of them were not told from the most objective perspective, but still -- I know the distinct patterns that emerged after hearing hundreds of people describe what happened to them at the hands of their SGM pastors. You’d have to be willfully obtuse not to see the pattern and not to conclude that something was majorly wrong with the way the SGM pastors were trained to view their authority, and with how the pastors were trained to respond to people who came to them exhibiting certain weaknesses and certain needs. Even if one were to bend over backward to give the SGM leaders the greatest benefit of the doubt, it still would have to become clear, after awhile, that something very wrong was happening in terms of the way the organization affects leaders and trains them and teaches them. It would have to become clear that there’s something very abnormal about SGM…and not “abnormal” in the good way, the way that Christians are supposed to be “set apart” from the world. I’m talking unhealthy, unloving abnormal.
So -- I’m grateful that some of you guys found something good and helpful here, and I’m thankful that I got to be a part of that. But truly, it wasn’t anything extraordinary that we did. You would have done the same thing if you were me.
July 17th, 2012 at 10:40 am
@ Kris
So are you saying your almost ready to quit writing the blog?
July 17th, 2012 at 11:02 am
Amen Kris. If any of us hear of Abuse -- emotional, mental, physical, or spiritual… we HAVE to say something! Look at Joe Paterno at Penn. State for heaven’s sake!!! Years of abuse glossed over for reputation, fame and worldly success. Ignoring infractions off the field. Custodian witnesses to the actual physical abuses in dark and secret places and afraid they would lose their jobs! Conspiracies of Silence. (Sound familiar SGM & some SG churches?) We ARE believers, so we are called by God to be bold and to speak up, to even blog in love and to tell the Truth! To say nothing, out of fear or job security, is SIN…. and I’m writing to shepherds and sheep.
July 17th, 2012 at 11:08 am
This is a huge encouragement for those of you who have been courageous enough to speak out.
20 characteristics of false teachers from the scriptures:
http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-radio/play.php?id=21643
July 17th, 2012 at 11:10 am
Kris,
It seems to me that turning your attention somewhere else for a large part of the time is a good thing.
I’ve gone through seasons--sometimes I was reading the blog every day, lately I check in every few days or so.
I wish I could have honest conversations with some folk in “our” SGM church. I hope the Lord will bring that to me in His time. But--right now I am finding some new interests that fill me with joy. I feel my world opening out.
It is amazing to just walk around with joy inside me.
July 17th, 2012 at 11:11 am
I also think it’s okay of things at the ol’ blog are slow sometimes. When it’s time to talk more, we will. I know God is at work…in the hidden places.
July 17th, 2012 at 11:38 am
Steve, I agree this is about money. It’s also about pride, as in #49.
We can’t separate the development of SGM from the fact that CJ and Larry set up this enterprise as their business. As young men, they confused building the Church with building their careers. They deliberately fashioned PDI and CLC as businesses, with a top-down CEO-management-staff structure, to serve customers (the congregation) who could buy the products and services, but have no say in the business. (Thanks again to the commenter who compared SGM churches with neighborhood fitness centers: you can pay dues and use facilities for 20 years, and still have no legal right to influence any business decisions or policies.)
As brilliantly described in the bestselling book, The E-Myth Revisited, they perfected a local (-church) business, then set about selling turnkey franchises to reproduce their success around the nation. They receive continuing franchise fees from each local franchise, plus profits from all products sold by the franchisees.
CJ spent the ’90s consolidating his power base. He eliminated all competing lieutenants, while developing internal regulations (doctrine) to keep management, staff and customers focused solely on PDI products and corporate culture.
When God himself showed up in 1994, CJ warily cooperated, but by 1996 realized he was losing control to the Holy Spirit and Spirit-led customers beginning to exhibit uncontrollable behavior. In 96-97, CJ shut down God’s pesky/merciful attempt to gain control of the leadership and the movement.
In removing and silencing Larry, he eliminated the only potential business competition, and eliminated the last leader who could have continued God’s renewal. Removing Larry also allowed him to streamline the product line to appeal to a wider customer base (The Cross Alone + Indwelling Sin, for the YRR/RBD crowd) that would be cowed into submission by consuming the products.
Also in the ’90s, CJ was getting older and -- like any good founder/CEO -- looking to perpetuate the company. He was also looking to reach a new customer base in the affluent, Gen-Y crowd. In an amazing coup, CJ achieved both by bringing in Josh Harris.
By buying-out Josh’s company (never-asked question: did Josh willingly give up all rights to his NA business ventures, or did PDI pay him for those rights?) CJ acquired Josh’s 1) personal brand and reputation, 2) Josh’s New Attitude mailing list, 3) Josh’s conference-running expertise — ALL BEFORE JOSH COULD SERIOUSLY COMPETE WITH PDI OR BE ACQUIRED BY A COMPETITOR. CJ also got the already-trained/groomed son he’d never had (as Chad was still quite young) to indoctrinate, subordinate, and to hand-over management of the business.
Since God is so amazingly loving, merciful and persistent, he was still able to work within this business system for years, wherever he was allowed. People got saved, discipled, filled with the Spirit; some even obeyed God and sent themselves out into ministry (when PDI/SGM refused to help them). But, finally, the wisdom of Jesus has caught up with them: “you cannot serve God and money.” CJ and his acolytes have repeatedly chosen money and what comes with it (comfort, respect, fame, control). All their actions have demonstrated that SGM and its franchises are businesses, designed to generate profit for the founder and selected, loyal managers.
Having been forced to yield control of his original franchise base in a de-facto hostile takeover by its management, CJ and the corporate-management team have downsized and moved to a more business-friendly area with a new, affluent customer base, and powerful business partners. They are prepared for a hostile competition with the rebellious management team (planting new churches in Gaithersburg and locations of other defecting franchises). A corporate merger and/or new-product development are also possible, to strengthen the corporate base, differentiate their products from anything CLC may produce, and deflect attention away from anything Josh Harris (now a competing brand!) and the blogs may say.
If there are any entrepreneurs in this audience, now is the perfect time -- before SGM can complete its transformation and mount a rebranding campaign -- to publish a book about SGM that recounts the history (as we now understand it), lets the victims speak, and tells the true story of the blogs’ role in bringing about the historic events of July 2011 -- to now. (Even better would be a book-video combination.) Of course, everything would have to be lawyered thoroughly, because we’re talking about generating a product that would directly attack the CJ-SGM brand and revenue stream. Per #49 above, “Wounded animals are extremely dangerous.”
July 17th, 2012 at 11:45 am
“Another Joe” said,
No…not really. Quitting would require making a definite decision. I guess you could say the main idea of my post was, “I haven’t been motivated to discuss SGM much lately because the topic has begun to anger me on a personal level.” But feelings can change. Guy has often teased me about how, when I am most vocal about my apathy or boredom, that’s precisely when things start to heat up again.
July 17th, 2012 at 11:55 am
RE: My Post #44.
I was corrected a few moments ago. Only one of the two former Ashburn pastors are involved in the new church that I mentioned. Also that any support provided by Fairfax does not include financial.
Thanks for the correction! (You know who you are.)
July 17th, 2012 at 1:03 pm
Keepinstep in #58, that is one astute posting. Your take on the reasons Josh Harris was brought in hold insight. I will add that Josh Harris’ entreprenurial upbringing will likely provide vibrant competition, albeit in my mind just as misguided since he has not played the #2 man without ignoring (and thereby collaborating in) a lot of abuse along the way too.
Also, you’re on the mark that they’ll market a new re-branding campaign. That’s what the cult I was once in did. They took on a new name and attempted to improve their image to do damage control, much like crooked businessmen do in an attempt to erase their dirty trails.
Question: Does anyone here think that Al Mohler is truly deceived by C.J. Mahaney’s acts of feigned humility?
July 17th, 2012 at 1:48 pm
LIKE ME MAKE ONE POINT PERFECTLY CLEAR…CONTRARY TO WHAT SGM WILL SAY…
No one at CLC is shunning CJ, his family, SGM staff, or people leaving to go to Louisville!! The pastors and members of CLC have gone out of their way to be kind and accepting regardless of anyone’s view.
Now, there may be some stray members who have done something in this vein but the extreme are very few. I heard of one report of someone posting a nasty comment on SGM’s door. There are a few out there. I’m sure these few are what SGM would highlight.
We have sought folks out, tried to understand, hugged them with tears as they left, attended send-offs for some. The pastors have pleaded with CJ to meet, pleaded with the Board, sent multiple letters to the Board. Members have sought to meet with SGM staff members to get answers to questions. We have treated folks with respect even though we may not agree.
The SGM folks have withdrawn themselves. They are contending that because we have had members meetings and speak openly about issues that we are gossiping and slandering and therefore CLC is a hostile environment which equates to shunning.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
July 17th, 2012 at 2:34 pm
So MAK, let me see if I’ve got this straight….you mean they’re mesmerized by….C.J. Kaa? Or whoever is using him….? Pretty sad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1ILPl5FQaM
July 17th, 2012 at 3:07 pm
I am sure it is more that C.J. Mahaney just can’t take having his sin and hypocrisy pointed out. Of course the way SGM has traditionally defined “gossip” and “slander” as questioning leadership then I guess they could call this as “gossip” or “slander.”
July 17th, 2012 at 3:52 pm
@ Kris
I hope that you don’t give up, as i have stated on this blog many times you and guy have helped me so much. I remember being so angry at how i was treated at SGM. This site and sgm refuge have given me a totally new perspective on LIFE.
I know that your tired of feeling like your not making any headway. The AOR report was a joke, the SGM board is a joke.
Maybe you just need to change the focus of the blog….
July 17th, 2012 at 3:55 pm
Keepinstep --
Its a tale that is to tame for the mainstream, to gossipy for the christian world. When it comes to video, there are many copyright issues, and the question of who may be willing to put up with personal attacks after going on camera? The break point for the SGM story has been and always will be formal criminal charges. Once those are filed, then the door opens. In the absence of that, SGM will continue to to skate the fine line of the law and basic decency in the name of the SGM God.
Forever creating victims while simultaneously garnering support from others. Besides, the SGM story is still unfolding and there is much that still needs to happen.
July 17th, 2012 at 4:16 pm
No.
They are both big boys and they both lead a large group of people, not all of whom completely agree with the direction of travel.
But Al stood with CJ when it was mutually beneficial for the two of them. If Al now admits CJ is a blackmailer and not walking the walk that he has published and led with for two decades, Al will look like a poor judge of character. Plus whatever CJ can bring to Al now is more than a degifted and stepped down CJ could ever do. So right now there is benefit in Al hanging with CJ and several downsides if he cuts him loose.
They both know how the game is played so they will continue to support each other until CJ becomes a) radioactive or b) no longer interesting and able to pull in an audience.
And Pat, I dont think SGM will re-brand. The name has a reputation that CJ will need. But I think you will see CLC, Fairfax and the other churches that signed the Fairfax letter or presented polity papers to SGM last week look to re-brand themselves. You can’t look up Covenant Life Church or Soverign Grace Church of Fairfax on the internet and not get page after page of all the garbage that CJ/SGM have brought down on the denomination/family of churches. So look for the “new association” to pick up a new name as soon as they have to leave SGM over polity issues when SGM/CJ try to push apostolic control back onto the churches. (You heard it here first! :)
July 17th, 2012 at 4:47 pm
Well in regard to re-branding, they did change the PDI acronym from meaning People of Destiny to, Proclaiming/Developing/Investing or something like that.
Perhaps now they will admit that SGM stands for Superior Godly Men. :P
July 17th, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Nick, I agree.
I do imagine, though, that many of the polity position papers presented will toe the party line and back up the return to strong apostolic order that is apparently the name of the game again.
They may try to find some ‘soft’ middle position in which congregations have some appearance of input, but many people are reporting that their pastors have said the SGM will NEVER be congregational.
July 17th, 2012 at 5:56 pm
First, I’d like to thank Kris and Guy for this blog. You both have allowed open discussion and provided a place where SGM members and former members can hear truth that would not come from SGM leadership. Knowledge is power. Because of this blog many have gained the courage to firmly, yet with grace, confront our pastors. You have helped us not feel at the bottom of the church polity food chain, but have helped us to see that we do have input and a vote, even if it means leaving our SGM church.
With regard to your original post in this chain, your feelings are completely justified. The AoR report was as offensive to the survivors as they say our words and actions were to them. CJ’s recent reinstatement and the move to Louisville also kicks each of us in the teeth. Unfortunately, I don’t think he’s doing anything but smiling at future prospects.
Please know that you and Guy are greatly appreciated by all here.
July 17th, 2012 at 6:03 pm
RE #61 Patricia -- thanks for reading and your comments. Interesting that your former cult group changed their name. I don’t think the SGM brand has been tarnished enough for them to change the name, however. I think their rebranding will involve freshening/sharpening the product focus, maybe a new tagline and new logo image.
RE new products, it’ll be interesting to see how CJ, et al process the events of the past year, and what products they generate from the experience. As everyone was saying last year, I’m sure we can expect a sequel to “Humility.” (If his audience had any grasp of Church history, CJ could invoke the image of the bound, arrow-pierced St. Sebastian suffering for his faith.)
At any rate, CJ has, no doubt, suffered much recently, and will not rest until he can monetize the experience by packaging it for an eager audience. Many scripture verses will, themselves, suffer greatly in the process, to get them to support his thesis.
#66 Unassimilated -- good thoughts on the video angle, though I was thinking more of new video clips, rather than gaining rights to existing ones.
I thought of the lawsuit angle, too -- it’s one of the shoes that could drop at any time. However, unless an SGM pastor or SGM staff member is accused of criminal conduct, it may be easy for SGM to dump all blame on the hapless local-church pastors and staff. The discovery process could uncover much, in terms of emails, notes and letters at the SGM level. (I hope Brent has everything well-protected.) However, I’ve never gotten the feeling that any of the victims are eager to pursue a lawsuit. What do you think?
July 17th, 2012 at 6:35 pm
Kris- I consider you to be one of the most insightful and wise bloggers on the internet, especially among those who call themselves Reformed and Charismatic. I pray God’s blessing on you, and I see no need for you to feel the slightest burden to continue to focus on SGM. Be led by the Lord, and let this be low priority for as long as you like, even forever. For those who want to find out more, it comes up on google, and people who need what this blog has to offer will be mightily helped even if we never say another word.
I think what we all need is some haiku time.
Three lines, 5 syllables
7 syllables
5 syllables
* * * * * * * *
C J Mahaney
Flees to Kentucky to Hide
Can one flee from God?
Thirty years of laws
all pastors must obey them
CJ- above them.
Josh says the problem
Is systemic and is real
Submit to Josh? ha!
Long term plans to move-
Not response to CLC!
Want to buy a bridge?
Little girls were raped,
AOR investigates
Main problem-the blogs
CJ promised us
Temporary President
Haha you suckers
Blackmail- common sin
Teens kiss- kick the father out
Blatant hypocrites
Polity changes?
Have we confessed past control?
New boss-meet old boss.
July 17th, 2012 at 6:42 pm
I don’t think CJ will change the name of the organization this time because there is little threat of anyone planning to wrestle the organization from him. Who wants it? Josh surely doesn’t though ironically, he helped pick out the name.
I also doubt Jeff, Dave or John would know what to do without CJ and I agree with those who think Jared M. is most obvious, heir apparent. So, the joy and the pain of leading SGM into the future (until retirement) belongs solidly to CJ.
The flip side of many CLC members leaving to join the L’ville crowd (and more will be leaving soon) is, we no longer run into them in barber shops, grocery stores, restaurants or Starbucks. Though we certainly didn’t shun them and I doubt many have, there really is nothing of substance to talk about anymore and small talk can get awkward.
Without knowing where they currently stand on any issue, innocent comments can inadvertently sound barbed. For example, some pro-CJ/SGMers now consider CLC an ‘unhealthy’ place. So, when they say things like ‘I hope CLC can find its way back to a healthier place” you would need to wade into some pretty controversial territory to find out what they mean and, then address it.
So, I’m relieved to have them gone. In my opinion, the Gaithersburg area instantly became a MUCH healthier place when the grand exodus began.
July 17th, 2012 at 7:02 pm
5yearsPDI, I dig your haiku. What’s needed is some play time with this mess as in Keepinstep’s idea here:
“As everyone was saying last year, I’m sure we can expect a sequel to “Humility.”
I can envision a book titled “How to Play Hyper-Humble with Pride.”
Or “I Get By with a Little Help from my Friends” with a foreword by Al Mohler.
Sorry, but sometimes you just have to laugh in spite of it all.
July 18th, 2012 at 12:34 am
I’ve been reading here (and at other blogs) for about a year now. My family and I have attended a local SGM church for over 20 years. Our family has served our local SGM church in many different capacities over the years including various leadership positions.
We’ve raised our children in our local SGM church and, pretty much, devoted our entire lives and our resources -- tithes, energy, creativity, and LOVE to our local SGM church.
Just recently my spouse and I have decided to leave our local SGM church. You might ask us why have we waited so long to leave…? In a word, HOPE. We have held onto the HOPE that the LORD would open the eyes of C.J. Mahaney and other SGM Leaders. We have held onto the HOPE that the LORD and the Holy Spirit would bring conviction and repentance to them.
We held onto the HOPE that the AoR report would not only affirm what the blog writers and readers have been saying for years but but more importantly, help usher in REPENTANCE and CHANGE for C.J. Mahaney and the SGM Leadership.
We have held onto the HOPE that REVIVAL and REBUILDING would come to the congregations that have been literally DYING ON THE VINE for lack of godly leadership, heavy-handed legalism and extra-biblical demands and teachings that have been placed upon them.
We have held onto the HOPE that C.J. Mahaney, Dave Harvey, and the SGM Leadership team would KEEP THEIR WORD AND PROMISES made to the thousands of SGM church members across the country and around the world that have been listening to them and watching them.
We have held onto the HOPE that our own local SGM pastor would do (and act) as other SGM pastors have acted (and continued to act) i.e. Covenant Life Church pastors, The Fairfax Church pastors, and most recently the Florida church pastors.
We have held onto the HOPE that other YRR leaders that we respected and listened to in the past would (finally) GET IT and (finally) STAND UP and (finally) say, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH IS ENOUGH…!
I’m actually sighing out loud as I type. I think my HOPE is gone.
I know. I know. We are not supposed to HOPE in anyone or anything other than our Father God and our Savior Jesus…!
I KNOW that in my heart of hearts but it still feels like a punch in the gut to realize… I mean FINALLY REALIZE that a part from a MIRACLE from heaven this terribly painful and dreadful story will just get worse and worse.
It is terribly painful to realize that while I’m sure we’ll be missed at our local SGM church — we won’t be missed enough for real change to take place. We won’t be missed enough to cause the hundreds of members who haven’t bothered to read the blogs (ever) or read Brent’s documents (ever)to question WHY, we, after 23 years of faithful church membership have decided to leave.
We are meeting with our local SGM pastor in two weeks to tell him this in person. My spouse has already met with him several months ago (before the AoR report was released) to tell him of our misgivings, our doubts, our questions, etc. Our pastor was very kind and very supportive. He actually agreed with many of my spouse’s misgivings/doubts, etc. about SGM and how they were handling everything. We learned later that our church sent a letter to SGM in support of CLC and the Fairfax Church when those churches (and 17? others) asked SGM to, “…Slow down” and perhaps “…Rethink” it’s rush to get the new Board in place.
But these little ‘glimmers’ of HOPE have not been enough to sustain us or compel us to stay. With each new debacle released from SGM -- the move to Kentucky, C.J.’s re-installment as President, C.J.’s response to the Florida pastors, etc. etc. etc. any ‘glimmers’ of HOPE we had have been squashed or extinguished.
I know that God is completely faithful and trustworthy. I know that the Holy Spirit is completely faithful and trustworthy to bring conviction and genuine repentance. I am just feeling very sad and hopeless tonight.
I’ll close with an old song from my childhood that I dearly love. I hope it brings anyone who is also sad, hurting or discouraged some comfort.
PS) Thank you Kris and Guy for this blog and for your godly, wise, and insightful responses. I am grateful for you both.
The Solid Rock
My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus’ name.
Refrain:
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand,
All other ground is sinking sand.
When darkness veils His lovely face,
I rest on His unchanging grace;
In every high and stormy gale,
My anchor holds within the veil.
His oath, His covenant, His blood
Support me in the whelming flood;
When all around my soul gives way,
He then is all my hope and stay.
When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh, may I then in Him be found;
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne.
-Edward Mote, 1843
July 18th, 2012 at 5:32 am
@ 75 Hurtful but Hopeful
Thank you for your eloquent words. They encouraged us this morning!
May the Lord’s blessings be yours as He leads you to another group of believers where you can use the gifts and talents He’s given you for His glory.
Please continue to pray for us who remain in SGM churches that we would be faithful to continue asking hard questions, to biblically bring correction where needed to our leaders, and to gracefully hold onto the One who alone brings repentance out of His kindness.
We share your HOPE that we will one day stand faultness together before the throne. Your Anchor holds. Glory to God!
TomandDianeKummer
July 18th, 2012 at 7:38 am
HurtingButHopeful, I am so touched by your words. Thanks so much for sharing your experience. I know others who feel exactly as you do and they have also left for “higher ground” so to speak. By higher ground, I mean they are also following that solid Rock our Lord and Savior.
You said it so well.
July 18th, 2012 at 7:43 am
I was ever so slightly encouraged Monday and Tuesday this week by Tim Challies’ negative review of Debi Pearl’s book, “Created to be His Helpmeet,” except he really didn’t mention any problem with the doctrine of authority the book advances. The Kevin DeYoung stance has me bewildered. I’m with you, Kris. I just don’t get it. Thinking themselves to be in the seat of Moses, they fear to have things devolve into the day of the Judges, even if the Holy Spirit does indwell all of those “doing what is right in their own eyes.” They worry about being lax disciplinarians and try to run a tight ship, at least toward the membership, if not really toward their fellow pastors, for in so doing they think they maintain one of the “marks of the church.” I think that, at some level, K.DeY. is a nerd who feels “cool” hanging with C.J. and admires his ability to work a crowd. Maybe that’s all it is. Plus those who want to maintain the traditional gender roles really do feel frequently embattled, giving them a need to stick together. Perhaps this is just a time of waiting, not a time for speaking.
July 18th, 2012 at 9:13 am
Persona 73 --
I dont think CJ is looking for an heir apparent. And certainly not when he has three son in laws that could just as easily fill the bill.
Remember that in picking Josh, CJ picked up someone that already had a “NAME” in the public eye. Someone that already had a ministry and a following. Someone that already had a draw for conferences and was already published.
Jared’s only speaking point is that CJ likes him because he is young and malleable. He has yet to publish, yet to draw in a crowd on his own name, yet to be recognized for his preaching/messages, yet to impress anyone outside CovFel (and only impresses half the folks INside CovFel).
July 18th, 2012 at 9:44 am
Argus in #69 --
I respectfully disagree. You said,
It is my assumption that all the position papers negate apostolic order and control. SGM has telegraphed its attack plan with the Sasser and Baker papers. Everyone knows what road SGM wants to walk down and exactly what they will pull out to justify themselves.
The polity papers presented by the churches are to argue against apostolic control and authority.
SGM had this “show and tell” session to make it appear that they are open and seeking church and elder input. They aren’t, but because they “listened” to the presentations and claimed they “learned a lot” they can now go ahead and do exactly as they wanted to do in the first place. And the churches, through their study and papers, have provided SGM with the weaknesses in the SGM move to apostolic control. The churches have explained why they dont see it as practical nor biblical. SGM just has to study those points and find a small piece of scripture to refute their claim and SGM is home free. At least in their eyes and the eyes of those churches that still drink the kool-aid.
But it is a double edged sword and a good move on SGM’s part. If the churches were to say, “You arent going to listen to anything we say” and not provide a paper, then SGM has the excuse that they sought input but no one stepped up to provide it. That would indicate that the churches were either fine with SGM doing it all themselves or, even better, were actually looking to SGM to write the kind of polity that will “save the day”.
You can see this in who wrote papers. Seven papers were submitted/presented and three of them, that I have read, come from churches that disagree with the direction SGM is telegraphing. (I would imagine that SGM orchestrated a CovFel or Apex church to write one that supports apostolic control so they can claim there were papers on both sides.) That is another reason SGM said that the churches were not free to share their research and findings with anyone that was not an ordained SGM elder. SGM is attempting to hold the evidence to as small a group as possible. Even some kool-aid churches might change is they saw what was coming from SGM.
Now that wont happen because the churches that presented will most likely share with their people and the papers will be open to the public as the members see fit to share with friends and blogs.
July 18th, 2012 at 10:01 am
Hi Kris
I don’t remember if I’ve ever commented here. In the last 5 years I challenged solitary church that had succumbed to patterns of authoritarianism and spiritual abuse. It was in a denomination that would traditionally have very little room for such hierarchy. I appealed to the denomination with the help of some influential people and another institution. I did get some traction and a modest investigation commenced. I felt the scope and the depth of the process was inadequate. They did instruct the church to change their theology and on paper they have. It required pressure from inside the church as well.
Things have changed but organizational change and policy change doesn’t make a lick of difference on a human heart. The same patterns of dysfunction just reveal themselves in other ways. The same weaknesses exist and we just treated the symptom rather than the disease.
I know that you are disappointed, I know that feeling well. Even if the AoR report had come much stronger I don’t know if it would have made that much of a difference. What you have addressed are symptoms of deeply embedded personal issues.
You did accomplish something very good. You announced to these guys and to many others that the people in a local church or an association cannot be insulated from criticism from the outside. Even if there is no tangible formal accountability all it takes is a free template, a $10 domain name and hosting fees to expose any oppressive system to the public.
I don’t doubt at all that some people weren’t fair in their criticism of SGM. I’m sure that some people may have perceived things incorrectly but this is what happens when people are abused and mistreated. Victims of every type of abuse aren’t rational about everything because they have been damaged. It is short sighted and callous to believe that everyone who has been spiritually abused needs to be perfectly rational and fair while processing their intense wounding. This is just the logical consequences of an abusive system. If they had functional and fair ways for people to process their grief and mistreatment in house it never would have had to go public.
July 18th, 2012 at 10:03 am
Not being controlled by SGM snakeoil salesmen does not automatically mean congregational control.
Regular life in churches that disagree with SGM and apostolic control wont look much different. Instead of all decisions being made by 3 or 4 guys who worry about what CJ thinks, they will now be made by 8 or 12 guys who have agreed on the specific issues.
You will see elder boards expanded, most likely with non paid elders, to expand the working base of the elders and to supply them with more input, more knowledge and more wisdom. (In some cases is will be more of the same thing they had, but hopefully, in most cases it will be fresh air and fresh ideas.) They are calling is a move away from “pastor-centric” leadership.
You will also see the addition of deacons to the mix. In some cases, even women will be able to join the administration. Some churches will call care group leaders deacons, others will call their staff deacons, and still other will bring in new people in new positions to fill the deacon offices. So more new people in the mix, not all having the same influence and authority, but still opening up what was rule by 3 or 4 guys in the past.
When you involve that many people in running the church AND you dont have to evaluate every decision you make by the “What will CJ or SGM think about this” rubric, you can do a much better job at knowing what the people of the church think and are concerned about.
Thinking that the opposite of apostolic control is congregation control is a diversion tactic. There are numerous options in between. No one is looking for congregational control. The middle ground is congregational input and congregational acknowledgement for the big decisions a church needs to make.
So don’t let those pastors redirect you with their “congregational” comments. They are just trying to protect their positions.
July 18th, 2012 at 10:29 am
(I would imagine that SGM orchestrated a CovFel or Apex church to write one that supports apostolic control so they can claim there were papers on both sides.)
Your comment above expresses what I was trying to say. I expect SGM would make sure that some supportive position papers were included in the mix so that they could give the appearance of having heard and weighed a variety of viewpoints. That is not unlike what they did with AoR interviews. They openly requested that people who wanted to say nice things about SGM request appointments or send in reports.
Do you have a list of the seven churches who submitted/presented papers? That would be good to know.
Even better, I hope others will publish the full papers. So far we have the Sasser contingent and CLC. I’d like to read the rest.
Only seven papers out of, what, 100 or so churches? I wonder why. Lack of time? Apathy? A willingness to let the committee decide? Or a sense that it doesn’t matter what anybody says anyway? Curious.
The committee has scheduled a couple more days for papers to be presented. Does anyone know if that is still on? Are more papers on their way?
Also, does anyone know how many pastors (and maybe who) showed up to listen to the presentations?
If not many papers and not many attendees, this seems to be shaping up as much ado about nothing, just for show. As expected.
July 18th, 2012 at 10:29 am
Hurting But Hopeful,
My husband and I are in the exact same place. We however are still waiting. We have a meeting to talk to our pastor in a couple of days. We expect to hear that our church is staying in SGM (for now). Sadly, we cannot wait any longer and will tell him so. We had a lot of hope that our church would leave SGM (and they still may), but we are saddened by the lack of courage in the pastors to speak out and the ignorance of our fellow members about the whole fiasco. My CG leader was praising CJ a few weeks ago, and although we love him, we just about tossed our cookies. I think it is time for us to pack our bags, so to speak. A very, very sad day it will be. Not because of our esteem for the institution, but because we LOVE our brothers and sisters.
July 18th, 2012 at 10:57 am
Didn’t I read on here that there wasn’t much notice when they requested a “paper” from the SGM Churches? Not giving much time was a sad but clever move on the part of SGM. This way the didn’t have review a lot of papers that might be contradictory to what they planned to impose anyway.
One thing you can’t say about SGM Leadership is that they are stupid. They may lack integrity and honesty and but know how to put on appearance of considering the view points of churches but then give the churches a short time to produce a document. SGM Leadership can be quite “smart” in how they push things to go the way they want them to go.
July 18th, 2012 at 11:32 am
HurtingButHopeful -- I hear you… we were hopeful too -- for awhile. We left in April after 12ish years in SGM for me (less for my husband). You know the sufficiency of Christ, yet it hurts much when his church splits and when leaders don’t evidence the integrity they had previously portrayed and advocated. We know they aren’t perfect and don’t expect that. May the Lord sustain and strengthen and comfort you and bring you to a new body of believers for fellowship and mutual encouragement in the future.
July 18th, 2012 at 11:56 am
intheNickoftime #82 -- Excellent point. Presenting options as either (a) authoritarian apostolic/elder decisions or (b) full congregational votes on everything is a false dichotomy. There are a number of options between (a) and (b).
I was glad to see the conviction with which CLC presented their position. They’ve studied it and come to their own conclusion. If it fits within SGM’s final polity, okay; if not, they’ll need to withdraw. They’re not trying to participate in a discussion and waiting for SGM to render a final decision; they seem to be moving forward with or without SGM.
If my perception is correct, I congratulate them on their move toward independence.
July 18th, 2012 at 1:35 pm
Excellent Post!
keepinstep
July 17th, 2012 at 11:38 am #58
July 18th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
I have read CLC’s polity, Fairfax’s polity, SGC Indiana’s polity and Grace’s polity (San Diego). All of these churches were able to pony up a paper on the extremely short notice thrown out as a defense tactic by the SGM board. As Whirlwind said, they are all moving in their own direction with polity. They are trying to help SGM see the light but they are not doing so hoping SGM will give their polity a stamp of approval. Most of them are beyond that. Most
SGM gave the churches such a short window in the hopes that no one would be able to respond. Then they could write whatever they wanted and have the excuse that they asked for input but no one stepped up. Still throwing out the ol’ Dave Harvey type of misdirection plays that didn’t work the first time.
This polity paper is a very difficult thing to write. It takes lots of study and discussion and time and writing. No one could do an exemplary job in the short window offered by SGM. Most of the churches mentioned here have been working on the polity issue for months and months. The seven churches who were able to meet the deadline were able to do so because they were already mid-way through the process (or done) of writing new polity for their own use in their own churches. That is why we know that most of the papers presented were against apostolic control.
SGM also knew that the one or two papers in favor of CJ’s type of extra local control were already written as blog posts or PC projects. They had been completed earlier and were simply and quickly reworked to fit the confines of what the SGM committee wanted to see. (I believe that SGM set the short window knowing that they had one or two pro-control papers already “in-hand”, and they hoped that these would be the only papers proffered by the churches.)
So again, most of the seven churches that submitted papers are not for extra local apostolic authority and control. Most of the signatories of the Fairfax Letter are not for extra local apostolic authority and control. Many of the Florida churches that were spanked and derided by CJ at their last meeting are not for extra local apostolic authority and control. And there is a large group of churches who are busy, struggling, out of the loop or dealing with their own issues that are also are not for extra local apostolic authority and control, they just haven’t had time to let everyone know it. Only a few CJ loyalists and kool-aid drinking elders are actively seeking to have CJ, Harvey, Mickey, John and Pursewell taking an active part in the goings on and governing of their churches. (And why not, they have done such a great job so far!)
July 18th, 2012 at 1:44 pm
Hurting, Lost and EMSoliDeoGloria --
My heart aches for your trials and I feel sorrow at your loss of friends and community.
But I sincerely hope that you have informed your friends and acquaintances know the reasons you left. I know you have to do what is right for your heart and the safety of your family. But you should also care enough to let those close to you know know the house they worship in is on FIRE.
You don’t need to run up the aisle screaming but you do owe those with whom you have shared a relationship over the years a thorough explanation of what your have observed, what you have done to rectify things and why you are leaving.
It was/is an SGM control device that said you could only leave if you met with the pastors and you could only speak to them about leaving. The building is on fire and the least you can do it let your friends know. After they know, they can make their own decisions, but you will have cared enough to sound an alarm.
July 18th, 2012 at 2:34 pm
Comment #90 -
As long as you realize that sounding the alarm could very well cost you your “friends.”
Uncovered, #81,
I believe you are new here, welcome.
I just wanted to say that I disagree with some of what you said, although I appreciate the thoughtfulness you put into it. Going public is a huge decision based in wanting the truth to be told. I believe that can be done accurately, regardless of how much trauma one has been through. Often, it is cathartic for victims/families to speak out about the injustice in the hopes those crimes are not repeated.
July 18th, 2012 at 5:30 pm
Happymom said:I just wanted to say that I disagree with some of what you said, although I appreciate the thoughtfulness you put into it. Going public is a huge decision based in wanting the truth to be told. I believe that can be done accurately, regardless of how much trauma one has been through. Often, it is cathartic for victims/families to speak out about the injustice in the hopes those crimes are not repeated.
There can be a price to be paid for speaking out. I did speak out and I’m being sued by my former pastor (should hear judge’s decision in the next week). Reading SGMSurvivors.com allowed me to identify what I was dealing with in my own church. The stories and abuse patterns I saw here matched my own.
There is a lot at stake for going public. Many, many Christians believe I am wrong for publicly naming my pastor and church. Some are furious at me and I still get e-mails. Some believe the only response for dealing with a spiritually abusive church situation is to leave and let God deal with it (and scripture is pretty clear that he will). I couldn’t stand by and do nothing. Since beginning the blog, what I thought had been going on for 4 years has actually been going on for more than a decade.
There are no clear and easy answers. I would never encourage anyone to choose the path that I took. It has cost me and my family dearly ($$, emotionally, physically, and a huge amount of time). Be careful.
July 18th, 2012 at 5:45 pm
I mentioned I did not advocate shouting in the halls (publishing on the net or in newspapers). But speaking words of truth to friends is what friends do. Like the saying, Friends dont let friends drive drunk! Real friends dont allow friends float along without a clue. It is the cost of friendship.
HappyMom,
If you lose those “friends” it makes one wonder whether they were really friends or just people we sit next to in church…
July 18th, 2012 at 6:05 pm
“There can be a price to be paid for speaking out. I did speak out and I’m being sued by my former pastor (should hear judge’s decision in the next week). Reading SGMSurvivors.com allowed me to identify what I was dealing with in my own church. The stories and abuse patterns I saw here matched my own.”
HappyMom
This is the first I have heard that your former SGM Pastor Fairfax??? Is suing you. sorry to hear about this. I wonder how he justifies this in light of Scripture?
Of course the way many SGM pastors play is that rules in Scripture only apply to others including Peacemaker prrinciples.
July 18th, 2012 at 6:14 pm
Oops that was JulieAnne being sued and not HappyMom. Was JulieAnne’s church an SGM Church and pastor?
July 18th, 2012 at 6:34 pm
I do have a response to this as I am a former SGM member who was shunned after a mistake in my life the Lord used to radically change me for the better. I have grown in my relationships and the Lord used the circumstances surrounding my trouble to reveal many things to me, including the corruption behind the SGM and its people. Anyway, my testimony in another post… LOL
In regards to this, what I find amazing is that there are certain people responding to this post that are actually the very thing they “talk” against. I know from personal experience that a particular person who responded (no need to call them out), has attacked my family, my sister with the mean a hurtful doctrine of SGM, preying on the very thing they preach against. And now they sit here and talk about how bad or un doctrinal SGM is/CJ is, yet they survive on the very thing they are talking against. I would caution you brethren to heed what is in your heart as apposed to what is spoken here as there are always wolfs among the sheep.
I pretend to be nothing more than a man who questions the church and organized religion as a whole because of what SGM has done to me and my family. The disgust I have for the people who are involved with this so called ministry is beyond reason and I find myself unable to talk about it without having to check my rage. SGM tore my family and I thank God we were able to salvage part of it.
-Bernie
July 18th, 2012 at 7:24 pm
Steve240, Julie Anne’s situation was not within SGM. Here is her blog: http://bgbcsurvivors.blogspot.com/
July 18th, 2012 at 7:42 pm
InTheNick- I’ve read CLC’s paper. Are any of the other papers publicly available? I’d like to read what I can because I’m very interested in the subject and what I can learn about it through this whole SGM experience.
July 18th, 2012 at 8:17 pm
Steve240: I’m sorry I wasn’t more clear. I was in a church that I believe to be abusive. Before and right after leaving that church, I started searching spiritual abuse on the internet and found this site. I stayed and learned so much here. (BTW, I have friends who are/were in SGM and visited a SGM church for a few wks.)
Eventually, I posted a Google review about my church experience and then the reviews were removed. I then started a blog and was sued by my former pastor for defamation.
I’ve read so many personal stories after my story went viral and I’ve learned that they really are the same stories, just change the details. As I say on my blog, pastors seem to all have graduated with honors from the Creepy Spiritual Abuse School (CSAS) because they use the same tactics of control, manipulation, twist the same Bible verses, anti-biblical discipline process, shunning, mind control, inner circles, sin-sniffing, etc.
And now that I have my own spiritual abuse blog, I’m getting the same junk Kris and Guy get probably on a regular basis: how unbiblical my blog is, that it’s just a bunch of whiney, disgruntled gossipers who have pastoral authority issues. Blech!
Interesting story -- because of the media attention, an old friend got in touch with me. I haven’t seen her in 14 yrs. or so. She sent me her own spiritual abuse story and surprisingly, it was her experience with an SGM church. As I read the story, it sounded familiar to me. The more I read, I knew I had heard the story before. She relayed to me one of the stories I’ve read here (I can’t remember what the name is but the guy was on the praise team, was a pedophile, and they protected him, but abandoned the wife and her many children). My friend knew this case and others up close and personal. Yup, the stories here are real, not made up. Not like you all needed that validation as I believed you already, but what a small world.
So, I’m fighting the battle along with you all and check in from time to time because this was where the lightbulbs went off for me.
July 18th, 2012 at 8:36 pm
Julie Anne,
I am so sorry for what you’re going thorough. I’ve heard of your story, I think on TWW?
I realize the risk in going public and it is huge. But considering what we experienced first hand, we felt we had no choice. (horrible mishandling of child sex abuse)
IntheNickoftime,
Of course. We discovered that none of them were true friends. I think friendships in SGM can be built on very shaky and conditional grounds.