[Kris says: I originally wrote the following as a comment, but then it struck me that it might make a better post.]
Reader “tomcov” asked,
Just wondering…there hasn’t been a new post here since early June. Any reason?
Before I start to answer this little question, I must apologize – I’m going to use the word “I” a lot in my response. I’ve often said that this site is not personal and not about Guy and me. And that remains true. We ourselves did not actually have a bad SGM experience. We have never had a personal horse in this race.
And yet – well, sometimes there’s a personal component here, simply because a person (usually me) writes the posts. And lately, on a personal level, I have been extremely fed up with many aspects of the SGM discussion.
I think it started with the much-anticipated Ambassadors of Reconciliation report. I know that many of you thought the AoR people did a great job of walking the fine line. I know that a lot of you felt they addressed the issues in a gracious and thoughtful fashion. But frankly, I thought their report sucked wind. They seemed to spend far more energy on dissing blogs and “unprofessional” moderators than on actually taking abusive SGM leaders to task. (Uh…exactly what would have constituted a satisfactory professional moderator? And more importantly, what sort of open and honest discussion can take place if some “professional” moderator is constantly evaluating and censoring comments in order to – supposedly – keep participants from sinning?)
I know some of you will shake your heads and think I’m demonstrating a whole lot of nerve to say this, but I’m going to say it anyway: I think the AoR people exhibited a breathtaking amount of legalism in their report when they spoke so much about SGM’s critics’ perceived sinfulness. If a building is on fire, does it really matter what tone of voice the person shouting “Fire!” uses?
Anyway, the AoR report disgusted me. I was filled with a personal sense of rage on a lot of levels. Ted Kober and his cohorts are blatant hypocrites. Seriously. For all their talk of “Matthew 18″ and the proper way to deal with offenses, and their holier-than-thou judgmentalism about the “sin” they thought they saw in SGM’s critics, they themselves did not even follow their own purported protocol. They felt free to write their report and trash-talk blogs and bloggers but never once initiated any sort of dialogue with me – despite the fact that I actually wrote Ted Kober twice, fairly early in the process, offering to be of help.
So yeah, I’ve been disgusted. On a personal level.
Then there’s the reinstatement of CJ to all his full former glory…the ridiculous lies out of SGM headquarters about the rationale for moving to Louisville, with the totally untruthful statements about how the move had been in the works for a long time…the polity discussions that are (wait for it) still taking place mostly behind closed doors, with little (or no?) formal official input from the average tithe-paying member…the fact that after decades of preaching the importance of allegiance to one’s “local” church, to the point where one can almost never produce a good reason to leave one’s “local” church, CJ has been able to (it would appear) breezily extricate himself from Covenant Life Church and any accountability to the leaders there and move on to start a new church…the amazing fact that CJ would try to describe blackmail as a “common” sin…the fact that CJ would even dare to paint any of his sins as “common” after building an entire reputation upon that ridiculous “worst sinner I know™” schtick…the fact that CJ’s sons-in-law received severance packages for jobs they quit…the fact that even some of the leaders who seem to be responding better to SGM’s critics are nonetheless still refusing to take full ownership of the way they themselves handled certain abuse cases…
That list is random and only very partial. I could probably spend hours writing about multiple jaw-dropping developments that don’t seem to bother too many SGMers. Too many SGMers still sit back and shrug and say, “Oh well, no church is perfect.”
And the fact is, I just do not understand this apathy. I do not understand how it is that people continue to tolerate CJ at the helm of their church organization. I do not understand, either, how it is that other non-SGM church leaders I personally respect (I’m looking at you, Kevin DeYoung) appear to be embracing CJ even more enthusiastically now than ever before.
It used to be that SGM Survivors struck people as scandalous because we talked openly about the cultural wackiness, the unspoken mandates to homeschool and practice courtship and have legalistic date nights. We were scandalous because we dared to suggest that CJ wasn’t actually accountable to anyone and might not be humble. We were scandalous because we sometimes poked fun of SGM’s self-important ways, their belief that their particular church method WAS “the gospel.”
But now, all of that stuff has basically been copped to by leaders. Nobody is coming around here and arguing any more that we’re just gossiping and making stuff up. It’s pretty much acknowledged as documented fact that many people were misled and even harmed by SGM’s “old” ways. It’s definitely documented fact that nobody dares hold CJ accountable or try to criticize him or correct him or sway him from his chosen path.
Yet what has really and truly changed?
CJ’s still the president. Major changes (cough cough POLITY cough cough) are still plotted and discussed mostly behind closed doors. Even the guys who appear to have integrity and are daring to stand for something – Josh Harris is one example - continue to couch their statements in the most affirmingly flowery syntax known to man. (Really guys – the Bible’s command to “let your conversation be gracious as well as sensible” doesn’t mean you have to be ingratiating, where you feel the need to continuously camouflage your honest feedback with gratuitous affirmations, to the point where the much-needed rebuke gets lost in a cloud of nauseating flattery.)
So – for the past few months, I’ve been disgusted with just about everything related to SGM. And the reality is, while I think I can write as well as the next person, and while I can pull off a reasonable facsimile of journalism, I’m not actually a journalist. I’m not even someone who ever wished to become a “blogger” (professional or otherwise). Back in 2007, I thought it was odd that there was no place online that portrayed SGM’s culture in a way that reflected my own experience of SGM’s culture – so Guy created a blog and I tossed up a few posts and thought that would be the end of it. As things have unfolded, I’ve been here, along for the ride. But I have never felt like I’ve been in some sort of driver’s seat. So, if something gets old for me - as the call for reform within SGM has gotten old – then I don’t feel like writing about it.
I know there have been lots of discussion-worthy developments over the past few months, but I just haven’t had the gumption to post much about them. I still read the comments every day and keep an eye on things. Sometimes I will put on my moderator hat (wonder what sort of hat a “professional” moderator wears?) and welcome newcomers or respond.
But for the moment (well, at least until just now, as I started to write this), my heart has not been in discussions about much of anything relating to SGM. I have a very full and happy life to enjoy. Contrary to what some people may think, I’m not naturally a negative or constantly suspicious person. So after awhile, pointing out the obvious gets old.
We’ll still be here to host discussions. And if there are any aspiring journalists out there who are interested in contributing stories, let me know. I’d be happy to post reader submissions relating to anything new within SGM.
Again…sorry for the personal nature of this response. But since you asked (and others have asked via email), there you go.
[And of course, whenever I've talked about my personal disinterest in the topic of SGM, that's usually right when something happens to lure me back into the fray.]
July 18th, 2012 at 9:53 pm
Kris—Long time since I’ve posted here, but I have been reading the many SGM Survivors updates over the months. The last time I read anything was the AoR statement. I have to admit, it was very overwhelming to read all that and the many interesting comments. I can’t imagine how it’s been for you, Kris! Thank you for all your patient and hard work for the blog. You have been helpful and encouraging to me personally. I am still sad and hurt that SG has taken from our family something that I’m still praying will be restored to us. I’m still beating up on myself for not realizing sooner what was going on in the very controlling SGM church we attended as a family and that I hadn’t realized it in time. Gone are the years that we would’ve had with our kids that thought everything had to revolve around the church. I have to work at not being so very disappointed. I pray you continue this blog.
July 18th, 2012 at 10:41 pm
Julie Anne
Thanks for clarifying your story. I remember reading about it now.
It is something what some supposed men of God will go through to apparently try and clear their conscience and feel right in their own eyes. The pastor you were involved with sued you. C.J. Mahaney’s apparent way was to call what was brought up about as “gossip” and “slander” or somehow not done the right way.
It is something to see Mahaney get such a bruised ego but then have no empathy for how he slandered Larry including statements such as rather be dead than do what Larry supposedly did.
July 19th, 2012 at 9:28 am
Earlier, Rose had mentioned Tim Challies’ review of Debi Pearl’s Created To Be His Helpmeet. I found it rather surprising, considering Challies’ audience, that he actually criticized Pearl’s book pretty harshly. But it was interesting, too, to note that at the end of the first half of the review, among the half-dozen or so books he said he would recommend, among them were 2 by SGM folks -- Carolyn Mahaney’s book, and Dave Harvey’s When Sinners Say I Do.
I wonder if Tim Challies has any idea whatsoever that SGM provided a welcoming environment for people who embraced Debi Pearl’s teachings? Arguably, much of what Debi Pearl would have women believe about themselves -- that they are responsible to submit to their husbands almost no matter what, that they are hugely responsible for men’s lust issues, that wives must give up the booty any time their husbands want them to -- is precisely what Carolyn Mahaney and many others within SGM have also taught. While the SGM books Challies recommends as good alternatives to Created To Be His Helpmeet may not spell things out as harshly as Debi Pearl does, and while they may avoid some of her blatant errors in theology, they were easily the “gateway drugs” that led people to think along the same lines as Debi Pearl.
And yeah, sure, the culture in many SGM churches has become much less blatant about how these ideas are promoted. It’s been awhile since CJ has given his Heart Of Modesty sermon, or since CJ and Carolyn have giggled on stage about the burning passion of their sex life. But few leaders in SGM have ever expressly repented of the decades of one-dimensional approaches to women’s roles in marriage (one of the criticisms Challies has for Debi Pearl’s book -- that it gives highly non-nuanced advice).
I continue to be boggled by why someone like Challies continues to plug SGM materials…especially when he does so right after condemning a book that is basically the same as what Carolyn Mahaney always taught (just minus the sugary voice and the Ann Taylor wardrobe).
July 19th, 2012 at 11:17 am
I think one of Challies’ failures is that he doesn’t have a problem, at least that he mentioned, with the Pearls’ bad theology about delegated authority. I haven’t read any of the SGM books Challies recommended, but, when I skipped ahead in Pearl’s book to the chapter written by Michael Pearl and realized that he believes God gives up authority and control to men when he delegates authority to them, I saw what was the root of all the other bad theology.
July 19th, 2012 at 12:36 pm
Kris 103
CJ still speaks on the topic of marriage:
http://events.sbts.edu/alumni_academy/
July 19th, 2012 at 11:06 pm
Someone asked if Mohler is fooled by Mahaney. Maybe he is willingly deceived because he’s bought into a certain view of the world for whatever reason- emotional, financial, political, all of the above, whatever. He’s had so many wake up calls in the last five years that he should know better by now. But like someone said, publically splitting from Mahaney would discredit the whole business model so it will be the same kind of extend and pretend games we see in the financial markets now.
July 19th, 2012 at 11:27 pm
@NameGoesHere #106: word : Good Post
Spot on!
July 19th, 2012 at 11:29 pm
I wonder how CJ will react if the dissenting SGM churches do not part quite as “amicably” as he desires?
He must be thinking of every possible scenario and had at least some of his responses vetted by his attorney-du-jour by now.
July 20th, 2012 at 7:28 am
“I wonder how CJ will react if the dissenting SGM churches do not part quite as “amicably” as he desires?”
It wouldn’t surprise me if Mahaney/SGM offers some type of financial incentive for these churches to leave “amicably.” Perhaps it would be a refund of contributions the leaving church made to SGM or something like that. This is just a hunch. I have no information that this might be the case.
A financial offer like this might be appealing to some of the smaller struggling churches. SGM does considerable money saved so doubt it would be that hard on SGM offering a financial “settlement.”
Does anyone know what SGM is going to do about all those houses they bought around CLC? I am assuming they were using these for housing students in the pastors’ college. I am sure SGM selling these properties will generate even more cash.
July 20th, 2012 at 8:53 am
@Steve240 wrote “Does anyone know what SGM is going to do about all those houses they bought around CLC? I am assuming they were using these for housing students in the pastors’ college. I am sure SGM selling these properties will generate even more cash.”
The townhouses are for sale. One just sold. Another has been on sale for a while (the one the Reinke’s lived in) and a note on the door says that it is a “short sale”. Not sure the status of the others.
July 20th, 2012 at 9:00 am
When the dissenting churches, apparently led by Fairfax (with numbers steadily growing) do part ways, perhaps as early as 2013, you can be pretty sure that CJ won’t be making “blackmail-sounding” phone calls to threaten to reveal their childrens’ sins! That might be the ONE lesson he learned!
Fairfax suddenly found some boldness from somewhere…. anyone have any insight on this?
July 20th, 2012 at 9:20 am
Let Us Reason #111
I wonder if the way SW suddenly bolted last year helped them to begin to see things from another angle.
July 20th, 2012 at 9:22 am
Welcome Bernie Smith. I was wondering who else might notice the “wolf” talking and treatening like he was one of us in our sheep clothing. Keen eye!
We will admit we are here against SGM practice and on this site with the hopes of being educated and encouraged. We also try to educate and encourage (with strength)others here through a healing season. We each go through that process differently.
However, if you post on here and don’t say (speak the honest truth!!) that you are a part of defaming others, demoralizing them, and mocking chronic weak-minded Christians then you yourself may be dangerously luke-warm. So close to luke-warm, that you too might be in danger of Christ not knowing you! or soooo legalistic that you might never build treasure in HIS Kingdom. Are you a SURVIVOR of SGM or are you really just loving the jazz of mocking and hanging with your SGM crowd who think you forgot we can all read Facebook?
Ladies and Gentleman watch out for the profitts. uh…Prophets.
July 20th, 2012 at 9:24 am
Kris,
Knowing you had all the complements and attention that this blog can bring and especially if it gets a bit gushy, the truth is..not everyone would do what you have done even from the get go. My family had no place to go and when God used you and Gus, He brought us renewed hope. Not some fleating emotion but honesty in a world we found lost of the truth, reality in a world that slipped away like chalk on a wet sidewalk and you helped us seek the solid ground of the Word again with out pounding us with a bunch of disciplines. Your natural way of calling things out onto the carpet gently lead us back to the true source of God’s word and all of us are sure there would have been many additional years of pain, tears shed, hearts broken, and insecurity that would have continued without the blogs. Thanks to your family and Jim’s we can keep our head above water no matter the water gauge. Take a break when ever you need to. We are always praying for you when you are away and when you return, we will be right here waiting for you, hopefully to bless you as much as you have us! SMP
July 20th, 2012 at 9:28 am
SMP -- Thanks!!
July 20th, 2012 at 9:41 am
After reading Kris’ post this morning, I was struck by the similarities of the unfolding SGM saga to the book of Joshua, specifically chapters 6-9. There’s a true battle for souls, and the survival of the sheep that remain, but deceit, power and greed (CJ) and “peace making” (Josh) have caused serious set backs in the battle. But, as is revealed in the book of Joshua, God is faithful, and in time will reveal all that is hidden. So we can hope that God will do the same thing with SGM.
Kris, you’ve played a tremendous positive role in this battle. Like Joshua, you and those who have brought to the light the darkness that has infiltrated SGM may need to march around “the city” 7 times. That takes courage. I know it is discouraging. It would be easy to fold under pressure, to say that you are done for now. Everyone needs to remember that this ultimately is not a battle surrounding CJ or anyone else. It is a spiritual battle between powers and principalities. Many of us, when fighting spiritual abuse in a church, have thought it sufficient to march around once -- maybe leave the church, write a letter to a pastor/elder, what have you. Perhaps threats from the enemy strikes back at you causing fear that shuts you down spiritually and emotionally. We need to be strong, and continue marching.
In the end, keep on fighting the good fight, keep on shining the light on the darkness that prevails, keep on marching. The the battle and the victory give glory to our God.
Christopher
July 20th, 2012 at 10:13 am
Steve240 said,
It occurred to me that among the many little factoids that would indicate SGM officials are being less than truthful about how long the move to Louisville has been in the works, SGM’s real estate purchases would stand out as fairly obvious proof that the organization intended to remain in Gaithersburg permanently.
Really, SGMers -- how can you stand by and accept that you are being lied to about this relocation? Sure, maybe it’s true that in the long term, SGM will save some money because of lower cost-of-living expenses in Louisville. But how long will it take for those savings to compensate for the out-of-pocket expenses it’s taking to find new facilities and shed townhomes and pay moving expenses? Not to mention, Kentucky is not exactly as easy a drive away from many SGM churches the way that Gaithersburg was.
Even if SGM will save money in the long run (and that’s still somewhat debatable), it seems so clear that headquarters had to be moved because of CJ’s falling-out with CLC. Until CJ got called on the carpet last year, there was not a shred of evidence to indicate that a move to Louisville (or anywhere else, for that matter) was in the works, even in the talking stages.
Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it true that at least a few of SGM’s leaders (including CJ himself) have in the past five years or so (some more recently) completed extensive renovations to their homes -- renovations that would appear to have been done to increase the homes’ serviceability for the leaders’ own families, rather than just generic improvements to make the properties more easily saleable?
Also, isn’t it true that SGM has recently (within the past few years) invested in improvements and renovations to the SGM offices in Gaithersburg?
Who does these things -- who invests in renovating properties for specific purposes (and not just to increase generable marketability) -- if the possibility of relocation is really on the horizon?
No, contrary to what SGM leaders have said about the move to Louisville, it seems pretty obvious that the relocation was a recent development, something that only came up because CJ got mad and wanted to leave town. Maybe there are some cost savings in the long term. But no thinking person buys up a bunch of townhomes just to shed them a few years later…no thinking person pours a bunch of money into renovating a home (making it into two separate apartments to accommodate extended family) only to slap the house up on the market a year or two later…no thinking person invests funds in modifying and improving offices that they truly know they might be leaving in a year or two.
SGMers -- you’ve been lied to. Again. Tell me again -- why is this OK?
July 20th, 2012 at 10:31 am
Louisville is cheaper than DC is but it is average for the United States in terms of cost of living. There are larger and cheaper cities SGM could move to. The proximity to SBTS is the only reason to pick Louisville.
They might have been thinking about moving the PC there but they wouldn’t have bought that land if they were going to move everything.
July 20th, 2012 at 10:40 am
I agree that it is basically a lie that SGM was planning on moving before C.J.’s sin and hypocrisy came to light and the subsequent fallout between CLC and C.J. Mahaney.
The fact that this new location is further from local CLC Churches especially the bigger churches (CLC, Fairfax, Philadelphia etc.) is baffling. Perhaps C.J. sees that as a “plus” to be located to where he is so isolated.
July 20th, 2012 at 10:54 am
NameGoesHere said,
Those townhomes in Gaithersburg -- the same ones that either are for sale now or have already been sold over the past month or two -- were purchased expressly for PC students, and (if I’m not mistaken) purchased fairly recently (within the past 5 years). This would have been a bizarre way to invest the organization’s funds if it were really true that a move to Louisville had been even the vaguest possibility.
July 20th, 2012 at 11:22 am
Kris
What might be interesting would be to post tax records. Didn’t you have a post a while ago that had those tax records that show when the property was purchased etc? It seemed like a significant amount of property SGM owned.
Some of that property might have been CLC? I remember seeing some tax records posted were for CLC buying some houses hear the CLC building.
Just having to pay the Real Estate commission to sell a property means one loses 6%. Depending on when the bought the property, the value could be up or down. SGM would be lucky to break even on the sale of these properties.
July 20th, 2012 at 12:12 pm
Now that I’m thinking about this particular SGM oddity, I’m curious -- does anyone out there have reliable knowledge about when the various purchases and construction projects were undertaken? I’m especially wondering about improvements made to SGM’s Gaithersburg offices in the CLC facility, the offices that they’re now vacating.
It seems to me that all the facts -- not to mention common sense -- indicate that until fairly recently (as in last fall or so, when CJ and the sons-in-law left CLC in a huff), nobody within SGM had even the vaguest idea that a move to Louisville might be in the works. Yet SGM leaders have made statements asking people to believe that they bought townhomes for PC housing, made family-specific (and sometimes expensive) improvements to their own Gaithersburg homes, and poured more of the organization’s money into the Gaithersburg SGM offices, even as the idea to vacate and move hundreds of miles away was being noodled around as a “cost-cutting measure”? And that this move has nothing to do with CJ’s personal snit as he runs from CLC?
Really?
How dumb do they think people are?
And if people are still attempting to “believe the best” of their leaders and are still willing to buy into such a ridiculous story, I just wonder why?
July 20th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
I was reading my #122 when it occurred to me that if a corporation tried to spin such a relocation story for their investors, the investors would never buy it.
I mean -- imagine there’s a corporation out there whose CEO has become iconic and synonymous with the company’s brand. I’m trying to think of a good present-day parallel, but the best example I can come up with is from the past. So I’ll run with it. Let’s turn the clock back 5 years. Steve Jobs is still alive, still running Apple. In our hypothetical scenario, Steve Jobs runs afoul of a bunch of his key executives -- a bunch of the designers and engineers who helped him develop the iPod and the iPhone, let’s say. He’s also locked in a major conflict with several of the other board members.
Let’s also say that Jobs has been fostering a relationship for a long time with Microsoft. Yeah, I know that Bill Gates has been out of the picture there for awhile, but let’s just pretend Gates is still at Microsoft.
In the midst of all this, it comes to light that Jobs has engaged in some potentially illegal behavior. The conflict with his designers is brewing. So is the conflict with some of the board members.
Suddenly, BAM! Apple announces that the headquarters are being moved from California to Redmond, Washington. But -- the move has nothing to do with Steve Jobs’ current difficulties. Matter of fact, the move has been on the table for a long time as a “cost-cutting” measure.
What would Apple’s investors think?
Would anyone believe that such a move is unrelated to Steve Jobs’ personal woes?
Now -- why are the SGMers who accept their leaders’ blather about the move to Louisville proving themselves way more gullible than investors in a corporation?
Why aren’t more people (particularly pastors of “local” SGM churches) asking the harder questions? And demanding real honesty?
July 20th, 2012 at 12:41 pm
Some of those townhomes were purchased over 5 years ago, maybe more like 7. It was before the market tanked and thus top dollar. In the end, they had about 5 townhomes there. Another was purchased by a member in fairfax to rent to pc families. Then the Reinkes townhome in the same development, was not a SG townhome but their own that they left in feb.
I don’t know all the extent of sg renovations, but I do know of a top sg family who was planning on making upgrades and had been putting it off because of other priorities. But they were eager to fix up their place. And thus Kris, in my mind, validates your conclusions that this was not planned to depart so suddenly. I will grant that maybe, maybe it became a consideration two years ago when they could not get a class to hold pc ( and it was just the men doing the trip to north africa) and economic factors.
My other issue is the large gifts from sg and mahaney’s to SBTS. If pc was the best way to do seminary (at least that’s bill of goods they sold us), why in the world would you not give those funds to sponsor families and help them out to attend pc? So it does make me question motives.
I could keep going, but it has felt that the lowly congregant breaks their back to support and build up both their local church and sg financially, only to now have our eyes open and be disgusted at what we gavw too.
July 20th, 2012 at 12:58 pm
Hi Bernie. I’m sorry to read that your family has been damaged by SGM. I’d say climb aboard the boat, but who knew the boat would have to be bigger than the Titanic? (For so long I thought I was rowing alone in a little dinghy. I guess it is good to know you’re not alone to a certain extent.)
July 20th, 2012 at 12:59 pm
Just a reminder that in all this moving and cost cutting, no one’s salaries have been appropriately reduced to save money!
July 20th, 2012 at 1:19 pm
IntheNick 126
..but a lot of x-SGM employees had to look for other jobs.
July 20th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
I am not one to speculate (look at my past posts if you doubt), but I can’t help but wonder if not only have their salaries not been reduced, but if they were also given money toward the move. Hope they remember to have their taxes reflect all the benefits they’ll be receiving with the move to KY.
July 20th, 2012 at 1:38 pm
Please edit the comment about pedophilia. It is offensive.
July 20th, 2012 at 2:31 pm
rorschach --
Which comment? Have I missed something?
July 20th, 2012 at 3:09 pm
Someone emailed me with the following information about two of SGM’s townhomes:
7409 MUNCASTER MILL RD
GAITHERSBURG 20877
This property was purchased from private individuals by SGM for $390,500 on April 1, 2008.
——————
7411 MUNCASTER MILL RD
GAITHERSBURG 20877
This property was also purchased by SGM on April 1, 2008, for $709,500.
——————
[Edited to remove incorrect info]
——————
It would appear that in the spring of 2008, SGM went on a real estate buying binge, spending over $1,000,000 of the organization’s money on private residences.
These transactions seem to demonstrate that as recently as four years ago, there must not have been plans to move from Gaithersburg. For an organization that has always engaged in long-term planning and is known for its purposeful decisions (remember the talk of SGM’s “7-Year-Plan” that appeared in Brent’s documents?), it would be out of character to make such a major change without having had it on the drawing board for several years. And if a move had been in the works 4 years ago to eventually move the PC to Louisville, it seems sort of crazy to go out and invest in housing primarily intended for PC students.
July 20th, 2012 at 3:32 pm
[edited because Kris' original info was incorrect]
July 20th, 2012 at 4:06 pm
[edited because Kris' original info was incorrect]
July 20th, 2012 at 4:14 pm
[edited because the original info was incorrect]
July 20th, 2012 at 4:15 pm
Persona and Oswald -
My mistake, the Lochaven address has been removed, as my eyes played tricks on me when I was reading the records. It does NOT appear that SGM purchased that house.
July 20th, 2012 at 4:16 pm
Sorry, folks, but I’m just going to go ahead and delete all the comments about the Lochaven property so as not to confuse anyone else.
I apologize for the error.
July 20th, 2012 at 4:27 pm
I have to say, being that we know that SGM has millions in its reserves, and that they could afford to spend a million for property
in 2008 tells me that their claims of needing to save money are greatly exaggerated.
Besides, when we moved in from the Dustin building, where PDI/SGM were located for years, It was repeatedly stated that the new facility was our permanent home.
The fact that it was our permanent home was also one of the justifications for spending so much on the space. As Brent has stated, the DC Metro location was intentional as to help foster relationships in the most powerful city in the US.
They aren’t basically lying, they are in CJ speak, systematically, categorically, and intentionally deceiving themselves, as well as those around them.
July 20th, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Kris,
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/Reference/2011_financialstatement3.pdf
Other interesting info, Total assets by year for SGM --
Lets remember this and look to see just how much the relocated SGM saves -
2011 Payroll & Compensation $3,006,237
2011 Travel $ 653,700
July 20th, 2012 at 5:26 pm
Seems to me the main thing that costs less in L’ville is real estate. They won’t save much money on other things, even salaries, if they continue to pay their employees the same salaries they got in G’burg.
And, I agree with those who brought up the fact that it costs LOTS of money to relocate.
SGM is selling much of their online stock on clearance so, they will loose money there, too.
I do hope CLC is transparent about how much they will give SGM for their office space. Especially since SGM did not comply with the contract to give 24 months’ notice before they vacated.
July 20th, 2012 at 6:14 pm
“I do hope CLC is transparent about how much they will give SGM for their office space. Especially since SGM did not comply with the contract to give 24 months’ notice before they vacated.”
If that is the case then CLC should be under no obligation to pay SGM for their portion of the CLC building for 2 years. During those 2 years they could even require SGM to continue paying their share of the maintenance etc.
In most commercial leasing I am sure what I suggest would happen. If one party wants to leave early they can but will have to pay the remaining time period.
On the other hand, SGM might be able to sublease their space and I would bet that CLC wouldn’t want that.
Hopefully CLC doesn’t pay a high cost of buying out SGM.
July 20th, 2012 at 11:09 pm
I wonder if SGM should also kick-in something for the loss of shared employees and health insurance and the loss of rent to PC host families (who sacrificially renovated their homes) as well as the loss of hundreds of members, their services and tithes? Wow, this split is costing the pastors and members of CLC a royal sum.
Hmm…I don’t think CLC should let them off easy on this one…
July 21st, 2012 at 5:57 am
Kris, I am, and have been disgusted by SGM for a long time. The members disregard everything in order to remain loyal and faithful to a man who is a geniune trickster….even disbelieving Brent D who was one of them from the beginning. The same standards used to judge others is not applied to the ‘Boss’.
How can the members continue to keep their heads in the sand? How can the RBD’s continue to overlook all of the internet accusations and discussions?
I guess some are weak in the Faith and others just don’t care. We all know that religion is a big business. I suppose others feel that is where God called them so they overlook lots of things! They will stick by their man through thick and thin.
I am just so pleased that we got out of there years ago!
Thank You Jesus.
July 21st, 2012 at 7:27 am
650,000 dollars???? for travel in one year???? wow sounds like first class all the time. Straight up ballers and shot callers.
July 21st, 2012 at 7:45 am
Hi Kris -- post #29. Thx. :)
July 21st, 2012 at 8:18 am
Does anyone know the exact figure for SGM’s “Get out of Jail” AOR report?
July 21st, 2012 at 9:00 am
Brent said $400,000, but I don’t know where he got that or if that is the total cost (including travel and SGM admin time, etc.) or just the check to AoR.
When I first heard about the AoR commission, I objected to my former SGM pastor that I could not see that process costing less than half a million dollars and many months of friction when the fees, travel, portion of salaries, and total expenses were all added up. I told him that someone truly repentant and more concerned for the casue of Christ than for his own honor and hold on his position would step down voluntarily. Many others have resigned for less.
We gave sacrificially for many years. I hate to think we trusted those resources to men who treated God’s gifts like an expense account.
July 21st, 2012 at 9:02 am
One thing I remember with Charles Schmidt and all that happened with him is that he and his wife at least took a year off to evaluate their life and ministry. Compare that year off to C.J. Mahaney though supposedly stepping down for evaluation didn’t really take any time off. During the period Mahaney wasn’t the leader of SGM, Mahaney was still speaking both at SGM Churches and non SGM Churches. It is sad that C.J. Mahaney apparently didn’t take any real time for introspection etc.
July 21st, 2012 at 9:23 am
As the author of the allegedly offensive comment in #29:
…perhaps I do need to clarify that I do NOT really and truly think Kerrin should have been a pedophile, not that anybody, ever, should be a pedophile….
However, when it comes to the support the SGM church staff has given pedophiles who wanted to live at home and have some level of ongoing contact with their daughters (of course while continuing to attend their SGM church, tithe, and profess repentance and submission to their leaders)…..
How does that compare to Kerrin wanting to talk to his own children ( Kauflin’s grandkids)-in light of numerous posts on his ex wife’s blog about what a wonderful father ( and for that matter, husband) he was- and getting no support at all for phone contact with his kids? (Assuming Kerrin is telling the truth and I have no reason to doubt it).
Who is getting more support as a father? Kerrin or a pedophile? If you find my remark offensive, I think you should take your moral outrage to where it truly belongs- SGM. Just my opinion, I could be wrong, Kris can decide.
July 21st, 2012 at 10:43 am
Rorschach -
Thanks for clarifying. Because I read 5years’ comment with the tone of sarcasm that I think was intended, I didn’t see it as offensive. It is true that in the past, some SGM leaders in some situations at different SGM locations have appeared to extend more grace to pedophiles than to their victims -- or to those, like Kerrin, who get vocal about their questions and objections to SGM.
I believe that that was what 5years was alluding to.
In SGMville, it has been true that loyalty to SGM and continued submission and expressions of one’s belief in one’s own “worst sinner” status trump everything, even the most despicable behavior. There were child molesters who received more grace, love, and support from their SGM pastors than what has been shown to those who cease their unquestioning submission to their SGM pastors.
I mused on this idea in much more detail here: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2011/09/02/why-sovereign-grace-ministries-doesnt-like-victims/
July 21st, 2012 at 11:39 am
Kris,
I think what is equally despicable is that child molesters were shown more grace, love, and support from their pastors than the actual victims, who were all children. At least in the three, still unresolved/unreconcilied cases out of SGM/Fairfax.