[Kris says: I originally wrote the following as a comment, but then it struck me that it might make a better post.]
Reader “tomcov” asked,
Just wondering…there hasn’t been a new post here since early June. Any reason?
Before I start to answer this little question, I must apologize – I’m going to use the word “I” a lot in my response. I’ve often said that this site is not personal and not about Guy and me. And that remains true. We ourselves did not actually have a bad SGM experience. We have never had a personal horse in this race.
And yet – well, sometimes there’s a personal component here, simply because a person (usually me) writes the posts. And lately, on a personal level, I have been extremely fed up with many aspects of the SGM discussion.
I think it started with the much-anticipated Ambassadors of Reconciliation report. I know that many of you thought the AoR people did a great job of walking the fine line. I know that a lot of you felt they addressed the issues in a gracious and thoughtful fashion. But frankly, I thought their report sucked wind. They seemed to spend far more energy on dissing blogs and “unprofessional” moderators than on actually taking abusive SGM leaders to task. (Uh…exactly what would have constituted a satisfactory professional moderator? And more importantly, what sort of open and honest discussion can take place if some “professional” moderator is constantly evaluating and censoring comments in order to – supposedly – keep participants from sinning?)
I know some of you will shake your heads and think I’m demonstrating a whole lot of nerve to say this, but I’m going to say it anyway: I think the AoR people exhibited a breathtaking amount of legalism in their report when they spoke so much about SGM’s critics’ perceived sinfulness. If a building is on fire, does it really matter what tone of voice the person shouting “Fire!” uses?
Anyway, the AoR report disgusted me. I was filled with a personal sense of rage on a lot of levels. Ted Kober and his cohorts are blatant hypocrites. Seriously. For all their talk of “Matthew 18″ and the proper way to deal with offenses, and their holier-than-thou judgmentalism about the “sin” they thought they saw in SGM’s critics, they themselves did not even follow their own purported protocol. They felt free to write their report and trash-talk blogs and bloggers but never once initiated any sort of dialogue with me – despite the fact that I actually wrote Ted Kober twice, fairly early in the process, offering to be of help.
So yeah, I’ve been disgusted. On a personal level.
Then there’s the reinstatement of CJ to all his full former glory…the ridiculous lies out of SGM headquarters about the rationale for moving to Louisville, with the totally untruthful statements about how the move had been in the works for a long time…the polity discussions that are (wait for it) still taking place mostly behind closed doors, with little (or no?) formal official input from the average tithe-paying member…the fact that after decades of preaching the importance of allegiance to one’s “local” church, to the point where one can almost never produce a good reason to leave one’s “local” church, CJ has been able to (it would appear) breezily extricate himself from Covenant Life Church and any accountability to the leaders there and move on to start a new church…the amazing fact that CJ would try to describe blackmail as a “common” sin…the fact that CJ would even dare to paint any of his sins as “common” after building an entire reputation upon that ridiculous “worst sinner I know™” schtick…the fact that CJ’s sons-in-law received severance packages for jobs they quit…the fact that even some of the leaders who seem to be responding better to SGM’s critics are nonetheless still refusing to take full ownership of the way they themselves handled certain abuse cases…
That list is random and only very partial. I could probably spend hours writing about multiple jaw-dropping developments that don’t seem to bother too many SGMers. Too many SGMers still sit back and shrug and say, “Oh well, no church is perfect.”
And the fact is, I just do not understand this apathy. I do not understand how it is that people continue to tolerate CJ at the helm of their church organization. I do not understand, either, how it is that other non-SGM church leaders I personally respect (I’m looking at you, Kevin DeYoung) appear to be embracing CJ even more enthusiastically now than ever before.
It used to be that SGM Survivors struck people as scandalous because we talked openly about the cultural wackiness, the unspoken mandates to homeschool and practice courtship and have legalistic date nights. We were scandalous because we dared to suggest that CJ wasn’t actually accountable to anyone and might not be humble. We were scandalous because we sometimes poked fun of SGM’s self-important ways, their belief that their particular church method WAS “the gospel.”
But now, all of that stuff has basically been copped to by leaders. Nobody is coming around here and arguing any more that we’re just gossiping and making stuff up. It’s pretty much acknowledged as documented fact that many people were misled and even harmed by SGM’s “old” ways. It’s definitely documented fact that nobody dares hold CJ accountable or try to criticize him or correct him or sway him from his chosen path.
Yet what has really and truly changed?
CJ’s still the president. Major changes (cough cough POLITY cough cough) are still plotted and discussed mostly behind closed doors. Even the guys who appear to have integrity and are daring to stand for something – Josh Harris is one example - continue to couch their statements in the most affirmingly flowery syntax known to man. (Really guys – the Bible’s command to “let your conversation be gracious as well as sensible” doesn’t mean you have to be ingratiating, where you feel the need to continuously camouflage your honest feedback with gratuitous affirmations, to the point where the much-needed rebuke gets lost in a cloud of nauseating flattery.)
So – for the past few months, I’ve been disgusted with just about everything related to SGM. And the reality is, while I think I can write as well as the next person, and while I can pull off a reasonable facsimile of journalism, I’m not actually a journalist. I’m not even someone who ever wished to become a “blogger” (professional or otherwise). Back in 2007, I thought it was odd that there was no place online that portrayed SGM’s culture in a way that reflected my own experience of SGM’s culture – so Guy created a blog and I tossed up a few posts and thought that would be the end of it. As things have unfolded, I’ve been here, along for the ride. But I have never felt like I’ve been in some sort of driver’s seat. So, if something gets old for me - as the call for reform within SGM has gotten old – then I don’t feel like writing about it.
I know there have been lots of discussion-worthy developments over the past few months, but I just haven’t had the gumption to post much about them. I still read the comments every day and keep an eye on things. Sometimes I will put on my moderator hat (wonder what sort of hat a “professional” moderator wears?) and welcome newcomers or respond.
But for the moment (well, at least until just now, as I started to write this), my heart has not been in discussions about much of anything relating to SGM. I have a very full and happy life to enjoy. Contrary to what some people may think, I’m not naturally a negative or constantly suspicious person. So after awhile, pointing out the obvious gets old.
We’ll still be here to host discussions. And if there are any aspiring journalists out there who are interested in contributing stories, let me know. I’d be happy to post reader submissions relating to anything new within SGM.
Again…sorry for the personal nature of this response. But since you asked (and others have asked via email), there you go.
[And of course, whenever I've talked about my personal disinterest in the topic of SGM, that's usually right when something happens to lure me back into the fray.]
July 21st, 2012 at 2:56 pm
I was wondering if anyone out there can easily locate the remarks from SGM leader(s) (Dave Harvey?) when they talked about how the move to Louisville had been in the works for a long while, prior to the exposure of CJ’s issues. If so, please email the links (a copy ‘n’ paste of the remarks would be very helpful, too) to me at kris@sgmsurvivors.com.
July 21st, 2012 at 3:39 pm
Sent something.
July 21st, 2012 at 4:06 pm
Happymom 150
This behavior in child abuse cases by SGM pastors is made all the more wicked when they tried to suppress the truth to preserve their church’s reputation and avoid law suits.
July 21st, 2012 at 4:38 pm
5 YearsinPDI said:
With cases reported here on this it is sad that there has been shown to be a whole lot of truth to that statement.
Happy Mom’s case is one where SGM Fairfax Leadership seemed to side with a teenage boy that molested a 3 year old girl.
Lets not forget about how ExCLCers Mom and her family were treated by Gary Ricucci and John Loftness when it was discovered that her husband molested on of ExCLCers Mom’s children. ExCLCers mom reported that these two leaders cut off basically any support CLC could have given this family. Sadly one of the children was placed in county foster care rather than these men getting a family at CLC taking in this child temporarily.
There was one other case posted that happened in CLC where the leaders in CLC seemed to protecting the father who molested their daughter and CLC Leadershp thinking it best to keep the family together.
It is sad that there could be any truth to the above statement but there is.
July 21st, 2012 at 4:42 pm
Kris
You can find SGM commenting on the move here:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Sovereign-Grace-Ministries-Relocation-Announcement.aspx
This is part of what they said (I bolded certain parts):
July 21st, 2012 at 5:10 pm
I thought this was a good article, on the four general characteristics of abusers:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/18/profile-of-an-abuser/
July 21st, 2012 at 7:37 pm
Steve240,
Just to clarify, our story did not involve a three year old. That was Noel’s Story. Although the Fairfax pastors did counsel, care for and protect the perp in our story who molested our child when that child was 8.
I believe all three abuse stories out of Fairfax are in Kris’ excellent analysis that she linked to her comment, #149.
July 21st, 2012 at 7:44 pm
Happymom
Thanks for the clarification. I still remember reading Noel’s story and be shocked by it. How old was the perpetrator in your story?
5 YearsinPDI
The link you gave with the 4 traits of an abuser sure sounds like C.J. Mahaney. Interesting he is on the gospel coalition council (that put out that web link) when he exhibits those traits.
July 22nd, 2012 at 12:25 am
While the time that I was hospitalized in Intensive Care only one of my children was placed in the State’s care (by John Loftness), there eventually came a time where eight of my children went into foster care, during which I was homeless. This was about a period of a year and a half. I got them back, pulling myself up from the depths of despair by the Grace of God, and the help and encouragement of many secular people, including people I met through the courts and DSS. Some were confessing Christians, but almost none of whom I knew from a church, and absolutely no one at all from CLC. John Loftness, and others at CLC were actually rallying in the courts on behalf of the pedophile ex-husband, trying for him to get custody of my children. It was DSS who walked me through the court process, to actually get child support taken from his check though the courts. Without a HS Diploma, and having been a homemaker for so many years, I was unable to earn enough money to even afford to pay for daycare-all the power had been in the hands of my ex, and the pastors at CLC. I grew a lot from those hard times, but, most unfortunately, they were devastating to my children. Please continue to pray for healing for them.
July 22nd, 2012 at 1:03 am
ExClcer’s Mom 159
I wonder why John or Gary didn’t offer to take you in or at least find a place for you all to live, to protect you from homelessness? I feel sure that someone in the church would have helped you if they had been told about your situation.
CLC has had a single moms ministry for years and many families took in moms with children. One family actually provided a home to about 20 moms over the years.
It almost seems like John and Gary were punishing you by their behavior.
July 22nd, 2012 at 1:03 am
I understand the sarcasm in the post and the tragic backstories that it is referring to. But imo that kind of rhetoric is exceedingly crass even to make a point in a facetious manner.
It’s appalling.
I’ve worked with investigators and analysts who have had to go through material that involve these kind of abominable acts. Ask an analyst from the NCMEC about how they need to study (over and over again) videos and pics extensively so as to positively ID the perps and those crying screaming kids in the material by facial, bodily, and voice recognition. And hopefully rescue said kids. A lot are never found. A lot are found dead. Those who endure suffer greatly psychologically and statistically are doomed to be (at best) sociopaths.
It’s a disgusting thing and best not used to make a point in such a manner as it was. It’s not like you’d ever say that in front of a victim? Would you then say it publically for all to hear? Read? Really?
I’m not defending sgm in the least, either.
July 22nd, 2012 at 1:20 am
Persona, I was part of that “single Mom’s ministry” for a time. John Loftness and Gary Riccucci said to me that my poverty was “self induced”, because I would not ask the judge to keep the pedophile out of jail so he could ‘support his family’. I told them that I believe a man should stand in court for his crimes alone, and should not be able to ‘get off of a crime’ because he had 9 children! I accepted my poverty as a price to be paid, with honor, to show my daughters it is better to live with nothing than to be treated with disrespect and violated in such a manner. Even some very kind people donated money to CLC, to prevent my house from going to foreclosure at one point. It was a manipulation of the system, an attempt to get custody to him, that caused my homelessness. Once CPS realized the truth in this, they helped me get housing on my own, through HOC. God sent other people who I remember all my life, who not only helped me, but also encouraged me that I was worthy to be a Mother to my children, and to help assist me to achieve that. It was a long, dark period of my life-I think of it as “The Dark Years”. Once my housing became stable through Inter-Faith housing Coalition, I was able to begin more of a healing process..It has been many years, but each year, there is progress.
July 22nd, 2012 at 1:42 am
Whew. The manipulative behavior of those pastors still takes my breath away. The details of suffering your family experienced still shocks me.
Unfortunately, your case is just one of many that those two conspired to control the outcome. Sad to say, the outcome very often hurt people. They had decades of experience by the time the Lord separated them a few years back. Thankfully, they no longer work closely together.
July 22nd, 2012 at 2:05 am
I have seriously learned now how time can seem indefinite, and my motto is “As long as there is breath, there is hope”…I look for ‘long term’, not immediate..otherwise, I would quickly become discouraged. Scripture is True..God is not mocked..And, His plans for us are good, not evil…Hope continues…It has been many a long year, but I can still say, “God is Good”. Do I ever regret following Him> NEVER! Do I regret ‘following men”? Yes. But, God is still Gracious, to see me through even those horrendous and stupid mistakes…it’s not over yet…”we win” in the end.. :Approve:
July 22nd, 2012 at 5:36 am
ExClcer’s Mom, You are a true heroine of the Faith.
Read Hebrews 11.
You have pleased God mightily by your Faith.
And not only you, but many others here who have been abused and hurt by PDI, SGM and instead of cursing God they have turned to the Lord in their sorrow and despair.
Yes, we are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession.
Why?
Because we believed GOD over man.
July 22nd, 2012 at 7:25 am
I am sure that there would have been sufficient people and resources within CLC to help ExCLCer’s Mom had John Loftness and Gary Ricucci allowed or appealed for help for the family. How sad to hear how a church that supposedly did this and took care of their own would not support this family in need. It is sad the excuse that ExCLCer’s Mom is indicating they used for not supporting her.
July 22nd, 2012 at 7:34 am
I’ve been thinking so much about ExCLCer and her Mom’s situations as I’ve been reading Wartburg Watch’s coverage of the Vision Forum’s treatment of a serial pedophile --and how Doug Wilson not only supported the pedophile, but also arranged his marriage to a 22-year-old woman who asked for his help finding an appropriate husband. Read the post from 7/18/12 and the comments that follow.
How Gary and John treated EVERYONE involved demonstrated so little understanding of the enormity/gravity of the situation.
One friend from CLC (who has sided with Gary and CJ et al in this split) knew the family and said the problem in the DA case (and my own) is the pastors kept applying rules/procedures for normal situations to decidedly abnormal ones. She also said that last July’s meeting was too embarrassing for the two daughters born to DA’s second marriage (also endorsed by and presided over by the pastors).
I argue that truth and protection FAR outweigh embarrassment.
July 22nd, 2012 at 7:35 am
Oops! Here’s the link
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/18/the-real-doug-wilson-encouraged-presided-over-the-marriage-of-serial-pedophile/
July 22nd, 2012 at 8:04 am
Over $600,000? Just for travel? Just for one year? In an economy that’s the worst of our lifetime? I’m certain that hundreds of people in SGM churches were unemployed during that year. I wonder how many people lost their homes during that year. And the SGM dudes get to jet set all over spending over a half a million bucks?
And there are churches that still associate with them? And there are people foolish enough to still give their money to churches that support the corrupt SGM?
Really?
I haven’t followed much of SGM and CLC in recent months mainly because we moved across country. But, really. I’m shocked CLC has narrowed their decision to stay or go down to polity. And I’m shocked that so many people whose eyes the Lord opened last year are ok with that. Shocked
Sidney
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:44 am
acme said,
That’s really an excellent synopsis of many of the situations in which SGM leaders did the wrong thing.
I was thinking about this, and it occurs to me that it even somewhat tangentially connects back to my original post, and how the AoR report made me feel. Really, I think the AoR report smacked of blind legalism. The AoR guys were so obsessed with the letter of the law -- that Christians must always guard what they say and how they say it so as not to sound bitter -- that they let that standard blind them. In their legalistic thinking, if someone sounds bitter, then that bitterness (or perceived bitterness) negates any truth the person might be speaking.
Likewise these situations where the SGM folks dropped the ball. They had their rules, their formulas. If a person displayed the proper level of (what they believed to be) repentance and humility and willingness to submit to pastoral and church authority, that person was likely to be in the right. On the other hand, if a person -- a victim -- continued to press for justice and continued to speak of his victimization, he was bitter, so he was sinning -- and thereby could not be right.
They took these wooden ideas and applied them in every situation, including situations where the (perceived) bitterness was the result of a heinous crime (sexual abuse), and where the (perceived) repentance was being displayed by pedophiles. No doubt the SGM pedophiles probably were sorry. They probably were the “worst sinners they knew” at that moment, so their displays of sorrow and grief were real. Unfortunately, that clouded the judgment and common sense of the SGM pastors who were trying to rule over these situations, situations that they were not equipped to handle because they’d come up in a system that scorned anything to do with secular psychology.
And yes, while it’s still true that sin is sin, and in God’s eyes, bitterness is sin like child abuse is sin, it’s also a sad fact that there are certain types of sin, certain patterns of behavior, that the much-disdained secular psychological research has shown need lots of very specialized help. In their arrogant confidence that the local church is all anyone should ever need, SGM pastors went way outside their area of expertise and tried to adjudicate situations they had no business presiding over.
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:49 am
Acme, I totally agree! I feel empathy for DA’s two youngest daughters. I don’t know them, but according to the topic of DA discussed here, they have done nothing wrong, and nothing to be ashamed of! I can remember a time when one of my daughters, who was in class with Gary Riccucci’s oldest daughter, spoke to her (Kelly, I think her name was) about how DA had ‘touched her sister in her private parts”. Gary called me that night, and strongly encouraged me that I should tell my child NOT to talk about it (She was around 6 or 7 at that time, I believe). I refused! I told Gary that if I were to hush my daughter, she would ‘feel’ there was a reason to be ashamed, and she had no reason to be ashamed! She did nothing wrong, and, in fact, I encouraged him that HE should have a talk with his own daughter about ‘good touch/bad touch’, to help her protect herself against such depraved actions that happen to children! (Yet again, another time I was ‘so un-submissive’).
What do DA’s two daughters have to be embarrassed of? What truly causes their embarrassment is the actions of DA, and those around him-not their own actions. The cause of embarrassment is not the Truth, but years of hiding the Truth, and living a ‘facade’. People should never be comfortable living outside of the Truth! Why should anyone be embarrassed of another person’s sin?
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:51 am
Sidney
$653K anuually for travel is what I see in their report for 2011 andis quite a high figure. That is over $54K a month. That is a lot to be spending. How many employees does SGM have that would typically travel?
I have never heard this question answered: Is Mahaney and others allowed to be reimbursed for travel expenses when he goes and speaks at conferences outside of SGM? Is that part of what this $653K represents? Why should they be reimbursed for travel when they are typically being paid a speaker’s fee?
My understanding is that Mahaney and others are allowed to be reimbursed for travel when they travel to speak at various SGM Churches even though these churches are giving Mahaney an others “honorariums” for speaking. That certainly baffles me that that he gets both. Why an honorarium. Shouldn’t the money that SGM members “tithe” to SGM cover these SGM speaker’s fee etc?
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:59 am
Kris, you said that well!
OldTimer (post165), thank you, for your encouragement.
Yet I feel I have received what I have been promised: He promised He would never leave me. To me, it is elementary-Man fails, God does not..Man lies, God does not..It doesn’t even make sense to put faith in man over God! I have been failed by enough of mankind to know better, and God has never failed me ever!
July 22nd, 2012 at 11:23 am
Just another thought; If we believe that Jesus died for our sins (and I know I do believe so), then why would we feel so compelled to ‘hide’ our previous sin, because it is just another testimony to the Power of Jesus and His Salvation he offers to us, isn’t it?
July 22nd, 2012 at 11:26 am
Steve240 -
It’s not a lot of money if you are running a business. It seems excessive for a parachurch organization with “some” employees.
But — if people/pastors are supposed to trust their leaders, then no one can ask about how the money is used. One or two people at the top are all that need to know and everyone else is a BAD Christian and divisive if they ask a question.
July 22nd, 2012 at 12:30 pm
rorschach….I do not wish to offend you or anybody else. You are a good person and I appreciate your posts. The bible says to avoid foolish and coarse jesting, and in retrospect, for me to make a crack that somebody would have been better off by being a pedophile (ie, to have pastoral support for contact with his children) was a coarse jest, even if true. I apologize to you and Kerrin and anybody else who was offended by my unclean sarcasm and I won’t do it again.
I don’t have your expertise and experience, but I know of many girls who were molested and the deep problems they face ( cutting, suicide, serious depression, rebellion). I have to push back my anger and focus on a just and good God who will make it right in the end, every time it comes up on this blog. The SGM pastors inferring to a 10 year old victim that perhaps she liked the attention, or she would have said something sooner, still makes my blood boil. The lack of deep open apology from SGM (with the exception of Greg Sommerville’s letter posted here, may the Lord bless him)is enough to disqualify all of them from any ministry if you ask me. But none of that excuses my crass remark and I accept your rebuke and will try to be more careful.
July 22nd, 2012 at 3:11 pm
ExClcer’sMom
I really think that CLC should give you and your children involved some type of apology for how they handled this and what they went through. Even if Gary Ricucci and John Loftness aren’t willing to do this (as you indicated they were the ones who handled it). One would think that some type of public confession and repentance would promote a lot of healing.
Sadly, so far, even CLC rarely admits that they have made mistakes in the past.
It is sad what DA’s children (from his new wife) went through but at some point in time they need to know the sad truth about their father’s history. I am not sure what ages these children are but is a sad family history.
July 22nd, 2012 at 3:33 pm
5 yrs. I appreciate your kindness toward Greg S., but how can one man apologize for what other men did?
As far as I know, GS was not involved in any of the posted sex abuse cases. It appears to me that perhaps the GS post was damage control, rather than an actual apology for any wrongs committed by CLC pastors.
As I remember, during the CLC Family Meeting last Aug., both GS and Josh Harris reiterated that their blogpost did NOT admit any actual wrongs were done by the pastors involved.
July 22nd, 2012 at 4:15 pm
Acme,
The post my blogging partner Dee wrote was a real eye-opener.
Just to clarify, Doug Wilson isn’t connected with Vision Forum, which was established by Doug Phillips. I used to get the two Doug’s confused, too.
Blessings!
July 22nd, 2012 at 4:18 pm
I agree,Steve240. While I need nothing from them (CLC,SGM, or any of the pastors there), I do agree that they should have responded to ExClcer’s letters for the past 20 years. If someone is so compelled to write, year after year, that would be a pretty good indication that a response should be given, and an offense had been committed. For years, I had ‘moved on’..What compels me now is the knowledge that they (SGM) cover this stuff up, and how young children are at such risk there. Because I am aware with certainty of this, I feel I must continue to speak out now. If I had witnessed real change, I would feel differently. DA’s new children are young women now-close to 18, if not already 18 years old. They should be mature enough to handle the knowledge of the father’s past, and hopefully, it is the past..When something is kept in secret, one never knows if it is in fact ‘history’, or actually ‘not yet revealed present’, do they? Except, God Himself knows, and one would think that people who profess to believe in God would tremble at the knowledge that He does know their hearts. Baffling to me, really, yet I do not stand to judge that myself..I just want to know that parents REALLY ARE made to be aware of pedophiles (whether ‘past or present’) who are in their midst where innocent children may be unattended. I have heard them speak that such things are being done, but I know that in reality those precautions have not been in place. I think that is a most burning issue to me.
July 22nd, 2012 at 5:15 pm
When I read again about these abuse cases, I feel shock horror, sorrow, and anger alternately — sorrow for the original victims and their families, and anger at the perpetrators and at the church leaders who revictimized by responses that can only be described as spiritual abuse.
SGM and/or some individual churches should bring in G.R.A.C.E., an independent organization whose name is an acronym for Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment. http://netgrace.org/
They can investigate abuse cases and see how the organization handled them and what flaws there were/are in the system, and they can advise and train in correcting those and putting proper safeguards in place.
They have done remarkable work with New Tribes Mission and are interviewing and investigating now with a Baptist Mission group, among many others.
Predictably, neither of those organizations sought the help of G.R.A.C.E until blogs went online exposing the abuse and calling for justice.
In one case, the perpetrator was an individual who was let go by the mission but not reported to authorities. The mission minimized, mishandled, and hushed up his molestation of a 12-14 yr. old girl, even making her write and sign a ‘confession.’ Things finally blew up online after a group of former missionary kids got together and wondered why their mission station, out of all the other ‘normal’ mission stations, had so many messed up, hurting, damaged lives. Turns out this doctor had molested many, many, young girls for over 20 years before they found out, and he had gone on to practice family medicine after the mission fired him.
In another organization, though G.R.A.C.E. singled out individuals who were particularly harsh and abusive, they laid the primary blame on the organization itself, saying they had “created and fostered a legalistic culture that made harshness and abuse not only predictable, but expected.”
July 22nd, 2012 at 5:22 pm
Thanks for the correction, Wanda. I also call my kids by the wrong names from time to time — which is even more hysterical (or disturbing) if you’ve seen them.
July 22nd, 2012 at 5:56 pm
ExClcer’sMom
So much for John Loftness or Gary Ricucci leaving their offering at the alter and reconciling first as Jesus in His sermon on the Mount commanded us to do.
It always baffles me that leaders in SGM and sometimes CLC have such a hard time admitting that they were wrong or handled something poorly.
Psychologists and other experts will say that most pedophiles really don’t cure or change. Thus if someone did this to your daughter then the odds are they are at least tempted to do this to another child. Thus people do need to be aware and controls in place or the chances will be high that the pedophile will repeat what they did previously.
Sadly C.J. Mahaney for so long critized any type of psychology perhaps including this prognosis of pedophiles that leaders didn’t really believe that DA was a threat to other children.
July 22nd, 2012 at 6:35 pm
As I explained “good touch/bad touch” to my children, and told them what their dad had done, I answered their questions about hi saying how he may repent, and that is between himself and God, but that they could still love him,spend time with him, and learn things from him, but that I would not have him live in my house again, and did not want to leave them alone with him, and that when they grew up and had children, they should never leave their children alone with him. I still believe that to be the best way to handle a pedophile. I resist the temptation to call any of God’s creation worthless (just because I see no good purpose for them does not mean one doesn’t exist), but the point is to protect innocent children.
It is ironic how GR and JL and others struggle so with admitting wrong, when they all used to teach how “Godly” it was for a man to admit when he is wrong..That is actually one of the good things I did learn during the years at that organization!
July 22nd, 2012 at 7:58 pm
Muckracker-
This was the original GS post.
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2011/08/11/a-message-to-sgm-survivors-from-greg-somerville-and-covenant-life-church-pastors/
I was not aware that:
“during the CLC Family Meeting last Aug., both GS and Josh Harris reiterated that their blogpost did NOT admit any actual wrongs were done by the pastors involved.”
If that is true, then I misunderstood this letter and you are correct that “perhaps the GS post was damage control, rather than an actual apology for any wrongs committed by CLC pastors.”
However, at the time, I thought it was a very big deal for Greg to 1) acknowledge the blogs at all, especially to send a letter to one and 2)invite critical feedback.
The wonders of search engines. Here is an old post of yours muckraker:
So, Greg sent that letter to Kris before he showed the final draft to Ricucci and Loftness, and they had hurt feelings ( sniff), and got an apology (another sniff)). I guess I am foggy brained but I ended up thinking Greg did the right thing and the only thanks he got at CLC was criticism. I don’t know his motives, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point. But if even Greg won’t admit any wrongs were done, wow, awful. That was a year ago though, and even the AOR report briefly admitted things were not handled right, so maybe a year later and out of CJs mesmerizing dominion they see some light now? I don’t know, no public apologies yet…..
July 22nd, 2012 at 8:49 pm
5 yrs. I went back and re-listened/transcribed this part (I’m not a professional transcriber, but here’s my best stab at it)
JH at that meeting speaking:
“…we want to examine anything that we’ve done as a church and we want to do anything we can to reach out to them [Exclcer/Sgmnot and families] and to pursue reconciliation--and so the heart behind doing this, was to make a statement that we want to care for people. Um. It was not to isolate particular men and say that they had done something wrong or had failed as pastors, but that we as a church want to care for people who are hurting, we want to examine ourselves, ah, we want to reach out to them, we want to reach out to them with the love of Christ, and if that involves identifying any, any things, that we’ve done wrong, we want to do that…”
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:17 pm
Muckraker
Thanks for posting a clarifification on this.
If Josh Harris really said this and atleast ExCLCers Mom hasn’t reported any outreach by CLC, what are they waiting for? Was Josh Harris really sincered when he said this or was this just something he said to try and appease people’s outrage? Was Josh serious about “examining ourselves?”
Sadly the aciton or lack thereof speaks for itself.
I can understand Josh Harris wanting to make sure he hears both sides of a situation before saying it was handled wrong especially for him to (gasp) say even a former CLC pastor handled something wrong but shouldn’t there be outreach and listening to both sides? If you read ExCLCers mom account of this and her daughter’s account this was quite serious how they mishandled this.
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:32 pm
It was, indeed, quite serious how they mishandled the situation with my family, with devastating results to my children, that some are dealing with still to this very day. Yet, what I think is most serious of all is that the secrecy of child abuse and the abusers has continued, and DA has been allowed to take young girls on camping trips, without their parents’ knowledge of his past! This happened just last summer! While it was not a directly sponsored ‘church event’, it was only people within the church..I was truly sickened that this took place, and still question what else has taken place that I am not aware of, as I was not investigating anything when this came to my attention. I do not even know if anyone is demanding proof of any ‘protective barriers’ from them.
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:39 pm
Thanks Muckraker-
This is my personal opinion and speculative, but I would guess they are getting legal counsel to say nothing. Awards in similar cases (sex abuse cover ups- LDS, JWs, Boy Scouts) run over a million per victim.
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:45 pm
Steve240
You can listen to Josh’s message from CLC today and see if you find any answers. He seems to lay the onus at the feet of the offended. He also seems to have a few choice words for ‘angry’ bloggers, too.
I guess I’m a glutton for punishment. This week I also listened to the recent sermon CJ gave at Kevin De Young’s church.
Toward the end, he began yelling louder than I have ever heard him yell. It actually hurt my ears before I managed to turn him down. During his teaching, he managed to include chastisement for pharisees, comments of being the worst sinner he knows and of course, he included several ‘categories’ of sin…the old CJ is back in full battle array.
July 22nd, 2012 at 11:41 pm
Persona
That might be interesting hear (Josh’s message he gave today). Interesting the passage it is suppose to be on: Matthew 5:21-26. This includes the section about leaving your offering at the alter if your brother is brother is holding something against you.
C.J yelling and going form quiet to loud etc? No way. Not C.J. ;-) That must have been something to hear. Sure you didn’t need a barf bag to get through Mahaney’s message?
July 23rd, 2012 at 12:32 am
In regards to travel money, the company I am a part of currently has around 500 employees in six states. There is A LOT of travel involved for about a dozen people, we do not get close to SGM’s number, even though our gross revenues & assets are considerably more than SGM’s.
So we could look at it this way…326 $2000 trips, or 200 $3,265 trips. Trying to be fair, lets look at the most expensive city to travel to NYC. Lets be all inclusive, car rental, per diem, hotel, airfare, tolls and miscellanea. The Global Business Travel Association says that’s $536.79 per day for the big apple.
All other US destinations are less.
So SGM spent enough to send someone to the big apple for 608 overnight trips. The reality is that SGM spent $1,789 per day for travel in one calendar year. Short of Dubai or perhaps Monaco, I would be hard pressed to spend that much unless there were significant entertainment expenses involved. That is ALOT of money for a ministry of 20-30 people to spend.
There should be more transparency as it is hard for me to imagine the 20-30 employees traveled 200 times in one calendar year at a cost of $3,265 per trip.
July 23rd, 2012 at 6:22 am
5yrs,
Thanks for your candidness sir (or ma’am?). It’s all water under the bridge. I also appreciate the acute thoughts and observations you bring to these forums. And I agree that the outrage is more rightly directed towards the mal-handling of these cases in sgm. Words are of no consequence here compared to that -- sorry that my words were so stern. At least after this Exchange we can shake and.enjoy the freedom of fellowship in Christ together!
July 23rd, 2012 at 7:39 am
I listened to the first couple minutes of CJ’s message yesterday at Knoxville, entitled “The Surprising Punchline”. I was more or less curious how he was introduced there (in light of the lengthy introduction Bill K. gave last October over why CJ could speak in light of the charges). There was no intro by any CCK pastor, so I wanted to see the basis for his message. Luke 18…he is speaking on the pharisee and the tax collector. I had no time for it last night, but I plan on listening to see how he preaches this.
July 23rd, 2012 at 8:20 am
Muckraker -- #178:
“It appears to me that perhaps the GS post was damage control, rather than an actual apology for any wrongs committed by CLC pastors.”
Which is the only response we have seen regarding the child sex abuse cases out of Fairfax and CLC. None of the families affected by child sex abuse in CLC or Fairfax have experienced genuine sorrow or repentance. It’s been spin and damage control. I’ve not read one story on here where there has been genuine, fruit bearing repentance for the horrible mishandling of child sex abuse cases out of CLC or Fairfax. Not one. If the world can vote to have Peterno’s statue removed, how can the “church” remain silent about this and not be bothered by it??
July 23rd, 2012 at 9:14 am
Cora Susie said:
C.J. Mahaney giving the message he gave previously on Pharisee and tax collector. It is sad that Mahaney is clueless and has no idea he is like the Pharisees were. It is just unreal after all that has been revealed about Mahaney that he could talk about Pharisees.
July 23rd, 2012 at 9:48 am
I heard there was a family meeting at the SGM church in Chesapeake last night where an ex-SGM pastor asked the church for forgiveness for some sins in the past. Anyone know what happened?
July 23rd, 2012 at 10:32 am
Thank you rorschach.
I am a ma’am…unless you want to believe I am one of these….
July 23rd, 2012 at 10:48 am
Uriah,
Gee, what a shame it wasn’t Keith Brault.
July 23rd, 2012 at 7:14 pm
And so it appears the split is coming. How many lives and relationships have been destoyed over one man’s pride and arrogance.