[Kris says: I originally wrote the following as a comment, but then it struck me that it might make a better post.]
Reader “tomcov” asked,
Just wondering…there hasn’t been a new post here since early June. Any reason?
Before I start to answer this little question, I must apologize – I’m going to use the word “I” a lot in my response. I’ve often said that this site is not personal and not about Guy and me. And that remains true. We ourselves did not actually have a bad SGM experience. We have never had a personal horse in this race.
And yet – well, sometimes there’s a personal component here, simply because a person (usually me) writes the posts. And lately, on a personal level, I have been extremely fed up with many aspects of the SGM discussion.
I think it started with the much-anticipated Ambassadors of Reconciliation report. I know that many of you thought the AoR people did a great job of walking the fine line. I know that a lot of you felt they addressed the issues in a gracious and thoughtful fashion. But frankly, I thought their report sucked wind. They seemed to spend far more energy on dissing blogs and “unprofessional” moderators than on actually taking abusive SGM leaders to task. (Uh…exactly what would have constituted a satisfactory professional moderator? And more importantly, what sort of open and honest discussion can take place if some “professional” moderator is constantly evaluating and censoring comments in order to – supposedly – keep participants from sinning?)
I know some of you will shake your heads and think I’m demonstrating a whole lot of nerve to say this, but I’m going to say it anyway: I think the AoR people exhibited a breathtaking amount of legalism in their report when they spoke so much about SGM’s critics’ perceived sinfulness. If a building is on fire, does it really matter what tone of voice the person shouting “Fire!” uses?
Anyway, the AoR report disgusted me. I was filled with a personal sense of rage on a lot of levels. Ted Kober and his cohorts are blatant hypocrites. Seriously. For all their talk of “Matthew 18″ and the proper way to deal with offenses, and their holier-than-thou judgmentalism about the “sin” they thought they saw in SGM’s critics, they themselves did not even follow their own purported protocol. They felt free to write their report and trash-talk blogs and bloggers but never once initiated any sort of dialogue with me – despite the fact that I actually wrote Ted Kober twice, fairly early in the process, offering to be of help.
So yeah, I’ve been disgusted. On a personal level.
Then there’s the reinstatement of CJ to all his full former glory…the ridiculous lies out of SGM headquarters about the rationale for moving to Louisville, with the totally untruthful statements about how the move had been in the works for a long time…the polity discussions that are (wait for it) still taking place mostly behind closed doors, with little (or no?) formal official input from the average tithe-paying member…the fact that after decades of preaching the importance of allegiance to one’s “local” church, to the point where one can almost never produce a good reason to leave one’s “local” church, CJ has been able to (it would appear) breezily extricate himself from Covenant Life Church and any accountability to the leaders there and move on to start a new church…the amazing fact that CJ would try to describe blackmail as a “common” sin…the fact that CJ would even dare to paint any of his sins as “common” after building an entire reputation upon that ridiculous “worst sinner I know™” schtick…the fact that CJ’s sons-in-law received severance packages for jobs they quit…the fact that even some of the leaders who seem to be responding better to SGM’s critics are nonetheless still refusing to take full ownership of the way they themselves handled certain abuse cases…
That list is random and only very partial. I could probably spend hours writing about multiple jaw-dropping developments that don’t seem to bother too many SGMers. Too many SGMers still sit back and shrug and say, “Oh well, no church is perfect.”
And the fact is, I just do not understand this apathy. I do not understand how it is that people continue to tolerate CJ at the helm of their church organization. I do not understand, either, how it is that other non-SGM church leaders I personally respect (I’m looking at you, Kevin DeYoung) appear to be embracing CJ even more enthusiastically now than ever before.
It used to be that SGM Survivors struck people as scandalous because we talked openly about the cultural wackiness, the unspoken mandates to homeschool and practice courtship and have legalistic date nights. We were scandalous because we dared to suggest that CJ wasn’t actually accountable to anyone and might not be humble. We were scandalous because we sometimes poked fun of SGM’s self-important ways, their belief that their particular church method WAS “the gospel.”
But now, all of that stuff has basically been copped to by leaders. Nobody is coming around here and arguing any more that we’re just gossiping and making stuff up. It’s pretty much acknowledged as documented fact that many people were misled and even harmed by SGM’s “old” ways. It’s definitely documented fact that nobody dares hold CJ accountable or try to criticize him or correct him or sway him from his chosen path.
Yet what has really and truly changed?
CJ’s still the president. Major changes (cough cough POLITY cough cough) are still plotted and discussed mostly behind closed doors. Even the guys who appear to have integrity and are daring to stand for something – Josh Harris is one example - continue to couch their statements in the most affirmingly flowery syntax known to man. (Really guys – the Bible’s command to “let your conversation be gracious as well as sensible” doesn’t mean you have to be ingratiating, where you feel the need to continuously camouflage your honest feedback with gratuitous affirmations, to the point where the much-needed rebuke gets lost in a cloud of nauseating flattery.)
So – for the past few months, I’ve been disgusted with just about everything related to SGM. And the reality is, while I think I can write as well as the next person, and while I can pull off a reasonable facsimile of journalism, I’m not actually a journalist. I’m not even someone who ever wished to become a “blogger” (professional or otherwise). Back in 2007, I thought it was odd that there was no place online that portrayed SGM’s culture in a way that reflected my own experience of SGM’s culture – so Guy created a blog and I tossed up a few posts and thought that would be the end of it. As things have unfolded, I’ve been here, along for the ride. But I have never felt like I’ve been in some sort of driver’s seat. So, if something gets old for me - as the call for reform within SGM has gotten old – then I don’t feel like writing about it.
I know there have been lots of discussion-worthy developments over the past few months, but I just haven’t had the gumption to post much about them. I still read the comments every day and keep an eye on things. Sometimes I will put on my moderator hat (wonder what sort of hat a “professional” moderator wears?) and welcome newcomers or respond.
But for the moment (well, at least until just now, as I started to write this), my heart has not been in discussions about much of anything relating to SGM. I have a very full and happy life to enjoy. Contrary to what some people may think, I’m not naturally a negative or constantly suspicious person. So after awhile, pointing out the obvious gets old.
We’ll still be here to host discussions. And if there are any aspiring journalists out there who are interested in contributing stories, let me know. I’d be happy to post reader submissions relating to anything new within SGM.
Again…sorry for the personal nature of this response. But since you asked (and others have asked via email), there you go.
[And of course, whenever I've talked about my personal disinterest in the topic of SGM, that's usually right when something happens to lure me back into the fray.]
July 16th, 2012 at 12:26 pm
Kris,
Your frustration and current “disinterest” is certainly understandable. Real change often comes slowly. As an interested observer, it seems to me that the blog has been an amazing success, helping to set many people free, and perhaps whole churches soon. Few reforms happen quickly or easily. (Think of all the years Wilberforce labored against the slave trade). The way the Florida pastors stood up to CJ is a vindication of the work you have done here, as are the recent, and I think meaningful, public apologies at CLC from staff. Things seldom happen according to our schedule, but it is very clear to me that the Lord is working.
While it may seem nothing has changed of substance, I think the walls are crumbling. Although it seems like the Christian world hasn’t noticed, it is safe to say that CJ and those associated with him are not regarded today as they were before in many people’s eyes. The truth eventually comes out…as it has, and will continue to do so. Don’t be discouraged.
Survivors has been a great resource and meeting place. You don’t need to feel you must write. Start new threads with good reader’s comments, or some of Brent’s newer revelations. Your input is always welcome and thoughtful, but don’t feel the need to write a lot just now to keep this community functioning.
By the way, there is something very direct and revealing in your phrase “‘worst sinner I know™’ schtick.” That’s really what it was all along, wasn’t it? A schtick.
July 16th, 2012 at 12:58 pm
El Pastor -
Thanks for the kind encouragement. It means a lot.
July 16th, 2012 at 12:59 pm
Preach it, Kris! I couldn’t agree more with your assessment of the AoR as well as the passivity of the church. They grieve me, too.
But, I also agree with El Pastor when he says the Lord is working and the walls are crumbling.
As one independent reformed blogger was quoted to say soon after the debacle hit, ” SGM will never be the same.” CJ has lost control over his organization and he no longer wields the power over others, that he once enjoyed.
The tipping point may not have occurred yet but, I am encouraged that the truth is out and God will continue to use it to set many SGM captives free. A lot of members eyes have been opened and I believe they are poised to leave SGM churches, as soon as they find healthy alternatives.
CJ and his minions are bullies. That is why they have to do so much of their scheming behind closed doors. But, God will not tolerate their sin much longer. If CJ continues in his unrepentant state, he will have the royal rug pulled out from under him even as he seeks to rebuild his little kingdom.
July 16th, 2012 at 1:14 pm
Going back to the previous thread, wasn’t Jared’s self-confessed rebellion like, umm, skateboarding? I don’t think it was anything too shocking or serious by modern standards. I don’t think he was sporting a lip ring or smoking weed. Though I guess any teen rebellion is shocking to the perfect image (not reality) of the pastors’ families. News flash: Most pastors’ kids rebel. In all denominations. SGM should lighten up on this, as I’m sure they are causing more stress to families by making them keep up false fronts. Congregational members would probably be glad to have them open up, to realize that pastors go through the same things they are going through with their own teens.
July 16th, 2012 at 1:16 pm
I should add to my comment #2 that I didn’t write the original post because I’m feeling in need of encouragement, as nice as that might be.
I can’t quite explain the source of my recent disinterest in SGM. It’s not like I’m discouraged that SGM isn’t changing. Because I have no personal connections to SGM, I’ve never cared much about whether SGM changes or not. I don’t have any particular opinion or desire about what SGM does.
I think what it boils down to is that for a long time, I understood that because of the nebulous nature of SGM’s issues, there would be a wide range of opinions about the organization. I also understood that our opinion here might be the minority opinion. While SGM had dealt abusively with a significant number of people, it’s also true that your average SGMer could cruise along and never have too much of a personal reason to question anything. Your average SGMer could hear, for instance, the nonsensical blather about how CJ was held accountable by the other Reformed Big Dogs while they chewed the fat backstage at some talking event…and your average SGMer would take such silliness at face value because he had no personal reason to suspect that his leaders might not be truthful with him.
I got that.
But then, over the past year, since Brent’s documents have made their way around and Brent himself has exposed so much, and since so many SGM leaders have actually acknowledged bits and pieces of the truth, it has seemed to me like my perspective on SGM’s issues is the only realistic one. Like, it’s a no-brainer to see that CJ isn’t actually -- and has never been -- submitted to anyone but himself.
The fact that a seemingly well-respected little organization like Ambassadors of Reconciliation could come in and issue a report that appears to criticize SGM’s critics more than CJ and SGM’s leaders…and the fact that your still-loyal average SGMers all seemed to breathe sighs of relief that business could continue as usual now…well, that just sort of sapped my interest in the discussion. I’ve been having a difficult time understanding how it is that people can be so blind -- even an entire supposedly unbiased organization like AoR could be snowed. How is that possible?
(And yeah, I know that AoR did include various criticisms and conveyed things to SGM about how they need to improve. But in my reading, the general tone of the AoR report was that SGM’s critics have a larger problem than the SGM organization. And that continues to boggle my mind and really irritate me…on a personal level…to the point where it’s been a lot easier just to ignore all the other recent developments.)
July 16th, 2012 at 1:51 pm
Amen. Preach it, sister.
July 16th, 2012 at 2:48 pm
Well said. After all this, the announcement of restoring CJ’s throne to power, It becomes very nauseating. So nauseating you just do not want to do anything but walk away. Out of all the issues people are fighting over, none compare, even slightly to the way CJ is acting. I stopped attending a local SGM church…..but there is no way I am staying at a group of churches, where the leader, or apostle, is above the law he created. Thats it. Period. There is nothing left to fight about, no points to argue, e-mails of past conversations, or abuses of power. All that comes AFTER you have CJ in his correct place, trash or in a humble state, nothing will change.
And if SGM is looking for someone who has a pair of brass balls to correct ol’ CJ, just send that worthless bag of bones down here to see me. He’ll be real humble, real quick. :Afraid:
July 16th, 2012 at 2:52 pm
I’m pretty sure I first came across this and Refuge in the summer of 2008.
We’d just been completely gobsmacked by our ‘church leaders’ and were in a bit of shock.
It wasn’t an SGM church but reading on here and at Refuge helped me join the dots and realise that the psychological / spiritual repercussions of heavy shepherding run very deep and that it would take a bit of time to get over it.
I’m very grateful for this blog and for Refuge and for everyone who has contributed their own life experiences.
ATC, Bristol, UK.
July 16th, 2012 at 2:58 pm
The one thing that I can say for sure is that my years with PDI-SGM turned me into an Atheist. I learned not to trust anyone that claims to speak in the name of God. :Superman: :Distort:
July 16th, 2012 at 3:17 pm
Bil,
Don’t let the actions of a bunch of self-focused, self-important, ungodly men take the joy out of REALLY knowing the God who loves you and came to save you from sin. I too no longer trust any man whose claim is that they speak for God … the Bible speaks for God. Period. If a man says anything otherwise RUN!
July 16th, 2012 at 3:18 pm
Kris,
Abuse starts when someone decides to allow it. Whether by ignorance, compliance, or from spiritual arrogance, SGM would not have ever grown if it was not for
the general attitude of acceptance of these behaviors in their various forms from day one. That is why to this day there are many who will simply shrug SGM off as no church is perfect. They started that way, SGM just feed off them.
The question is, are the sheep that dont mind the slaughter worth saving? Are they worth waiting for? Can one love someone that not only
ignores the SGM atrocities, but goes as far to plug their ears and scream, “lalalalal I’m not listening!” It’s hard, it stinks, and it is not in my nature to care about what people do out of stupidity, ignorance, or choice in the name of some false God or Gospel. Literally, thank God that we have Jesus to show us how.
For many years I, like most SGMers that came to post here, thought I was losing my mind in a way. I was stuck between the common sense of reality, and the prospect that God was a heavy handed authoritarian father with whims and whimsey that changed on a dime. In many cases at the expense of many faithful people. I grew tired of people disappearing without a trace or peep. The endless list of taboo, and fear tactics when it came to the world outside the SGM walls. Like you I would find tidbits on the web only for them to quickly vanish. Just baffling.
There are many SGM defenders who I would imagine are eating crow about now, and many more who are suffering a type of PTSD where they are unable to share or talk about it. This made more difficult as the worse and more apparent the SGM lies and deception become. It also becomes more difficult for people to admit that had been a part of it, taken in by what now seems like apparent madness. I have a personal list of former SGM defenders that I would love to hear from now that our “sinfull” gossip has become more of a self evident truth.
So Kris, you decided to care, to create a place, at first to get some questions answered, and then you opened up to caring for the victims of this system, and keeping the blog going as the stories, and later controversies poured in. Perhaps you got your hopes up a bit much when it looked like Ted Kober may bring some logic and reason into the fold, yet he did not.
…..
All in all, IMO, you have demonstrated more of God’s grace, and Christ love through this blog, and in your efforts than I had ever seen demonstrated in my many years at SGM. In the process, you too have become an SGM Survivor. You have lived within the SGM community, and been effected by its insanity, albeit in a different way than most of us. How could you not? You spent more time caring for and milling over many of us here than our pastors did. When even our families would turn a hostile eye towards us, you kept an honest line of dialogue open.
So the schmucks that think blackmail is OK are continuing to lie and deceive. They suck, and the fact that others what to hitch their wagon to them is more proof that we need a God, need Jesus, and benefit from people like you and Guy to remind us what truth, the Gospel, and sanity look like. There are still plenty of people with wide eyes and trusting hearts that will need to know the history of SGM in order to protect their future. You can only sound the warning, there will always be those that want to go down with the ship.
July 16th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
Seth said,
Yup. This. Exactly this.
I can’t help but wonder what the people around CJ -- the men who continue to enable him and support him -- are thinking. By all accounts, many of these guys were (or are) great men of God. Certainly they must know, in their heart of hearts, that it’s really messed up for CJ to ditch CLC at this point to run off to Louisville and start his own church, before sticking around and restoring old relationships (well, at least, the relationships that supposedly existed).
CJ’s sons-in-law were well-regarded guys. They had reputations as men of integrity in other areas. I know there’s the family connection to sway them…but really. What are they thinking in their deepest, most personal thoughts? They must know their father-in-law’s behavior is horribly inconsistent with what he’s always taught before.
I’ve hammered away on this theme a thousand times, but it still bears repeating: it is absolutely OK for CJ to change his opinions about what constitutes a proper relationship with one’s “local” church, how one ought to view one’s church authorities, how one ought to handle conflicts with one’s local church, and how one ought to remain committed to one’s local congregation almost no matter what. I think it’s fine and dandy for CJ to have had a change of heart, actually. Much of what he taught others about their relationship with the “local” church was overly legalistic and extrabiblical.
But if CJ indeed has changed his tune and believes something new now -- as would be indicated by his own recent actions -- then he needs to say so. He needs to go back and attempt to undo decades of now-wrong teachings.
He can’t hope to have it both ways.
I am reminded of the Megan/Kerrin story from last year. I totally sympathized with Megan and her wish to remain where she was and not uproot her children and move to another country just because her husband wanted to. I could even understand why her SGM celebrity dad gave her the counsel and support he apparently gave her, even though hundreds of SGM wives have been counseled in the exact opposite direction since the organization’s earliest days -- even to the point of being told it was their duty to take back a physically abusive husband just because he said he’d changed.
But if SGM’s top leaders have now lived through experiences that have changed their views on what constitutes proper “submissive wife” behavior, then for God’s sake (literally), they need to say so. Moreover, they need to go back and to the best of their ability apologize to every last woman whom they counseled to follow and submit.
Leaders cannot promote one thing and then choose the opposite course of action in their personal lives, just because the opposite course better suits their circumstances.
July 16th, 2012 at 3:46 pm
TV has ruined most of us. Things happen quickly on tv but dramas dont really happen like that in real life.
And tv does this because writers realize we wont sit and watch for that long. We might sit for hours but we wont watch something that is not all that interesting and we certainly wont sit and watch as some long drawn out process takes place. THAT is what time-lapse photography is for. If you could watch this SGM disintegration speeded up you might find it more interesting to watch, and you might stay until the end.
SGM is like a snake that was cut in half by a combine or car tire. It slithers off the road but then it dies a slow death. It is often difficult to see when it actually dies, and can often still be dangerous even after it has died.
SGM has lost at least a quarter of it’s funding. That is significant. Imagine if you lost 25% of your salary. It would significantly effect how you go about your daily routines. But you wouldn’t put out a sign to show the neighbors, nor would you go on a rice and beans diet. You would carefully decide what you could do without and for those things you needed you would decide where you could get them the cheapest.
SGM has done the math. They are moving to Ky to save money and lick their wounds. The move costs money. It also costs people and time. SGM can not be as strong in Ky as they were in Md. But like the snake that slithers off into the tall grass, SGM doesn’t realize the extent of their injuries. But unlike the snake, they need to communicate with people that their predicament is not so bad and they think they will likely recover. So they put out regular announcements to say they are doing just fine. They are making plans and scheduling conferences and life is going along just like it always has, or at least that is what they want you to think.
In the end, they may survive but they will never be what they were. The loss of 25% of their income is significant. The loss of their flagship church is significant. The loss of the three founding churches is significant. The loss of total numbers is significant. The loss of standing in the reformed community is significant.
The RBDs will likely pull CJ along for a while. They dont want to look bad for holding him up as a beacon, so they will continue to support him for a while. But since he is only leading 70 churches instead of 100+, things will be different. CJ wont have quite as much pull nor garner quite as much press. Since CJ will be “working” to start a new church he wont be writing and publishing as much so he wont bring as much to the table when he is on the list for people to invite to speak at your conference. Eventually people will not clamor to hear him and he will be just another tired old preacher.
Oh, CJ’s time is limited. While many wanted a big exit with CJ tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail, he will more than likely finish out his time running SGM as SGM dwindles to a small pathetic organization known only for the screaching crash at the end of their reign of influence. The churches will do fine because when their illustrious leader tanks their focus will revert back to Jesus. Certainly the churches that wrote their own polity and set themselves up as independent churches will do fine, and they will likely already be associated with one another in a healthy relationship and raising up their own leaders from within their organizations.
And CJ and SGM will slowly burn up resources and draw down accounts in an attempt to keep up appearances that they are still a thriving ministry. There will still be three son in laws to support and a brother in law or two and several friends that moved with him that need wages. That will keep CJ on the lecture circuit for a while, but eventually his star will fade to where his presence wont be missed on the stage of the next big conference.
Then he will retire there in Ky with all his daughters and sisters and in-laws and hob-knob around with Mohler, and speak at the Seminary and recall the glory days when he was “all that” adn tell them about how he is doing better than he deserves, but no one will remember him much after the class is over. That will be the end for CJ and SGM. It wont come in a fiery crash with lots of headlines, but it will be the quiet snuff of a candle flame, pinched out by the last person to leave the room.
Kris knows this and that is why she has not been commenting much or posting new threads. To Kris, this is already yesterday’s news. To me, I am still in the mix so I will keep watching, and posting, and reminding, and doing whatever it takes until the “reign of men” is over and Christ is returned to his rightful position in what used to be called SGM.
July 16th, 2012 at 3:59 pm
Hi Kris, I was wondering why there were no fresh posts too, and always felt a sense of disappointment each time I logged on. You’re correct; it’s not about you or Guy. Others can post and discussions can follow as before.
Last year and until April, I read “the blogs” pretty much every day, and followed the stories and reports with interest, dismay and, at times, with horror. I’ve talked to CJ face to face once or twice over the years, and I’ve expressed disappointment to my church elders over the things I’ve seen CJ do and say since July 2011. The bolder stand that Joshua Harris took, seems to have left him battle-scarred and deeply wounded to the point that he appears to have backed off from some of his strong statements and he’s now wishing CJ well in his new church.
The feeling on the ground amongst the grunts and troops looks like: “Let’s get on with worshiping God and preaching the gospel. We don’t want to talk about CJ, the blogs and definitely NOT about Brent Detwiler. Can’t we all get along?”
The feeling amongst many of “the officers” suggests: “We are really unhappy with CJ’s 2011-2012 decisions, and we can’t support SGM with our tithes and offerings right now, if ever again. We see CJ setting up shop in Louisville and gathering his supporters and we see that he has been exonerated by the “Panel of Three” and especially by Ambassadors Of Reconciliation, so what more can we do right now? If we shout too loudly, we’ll be out of SGM by next month, lose our livelihood, and earn SGM and CJs wrath and disfavor, so we’ll preach and pray and continue to do the work of God and see what he does with CJ. We have learned some valuable lessons this last year. And as a result of this shake-up (God taking us to the woodshed!) we feel that there are good and healthy changes in many, but not all, Sovereign Grace churches, but the verdict on Sovereign Grace Ministries is still out. Soon all the polity reports will be in and the SGM committee will pronounce its declarations in the New Year, which will enable the SGM Board to pronounce. CJ usually gets his own way in all things so we don’t expect much change right now apart from God. It’s a waiting game.”
July 16th, 2012 at 4:08 pm
Kris,
I am impressed with your commitment to this site. Your compassion for those who have been wronged by SGM is apparent. As with many of those who are involved in ministering to the sick, it is easy to get burned out. I feel like I gave up too easily in the situation we were involved in sometimes. I know you are not asking for encouragement but your compassion and commitment should be applauded.
Some of the comments I read on this latest thread about CJ and the “Big Dogs” hit a cord with something I have been reading about recently. I am reading about emotional intelligence (EI). One of the “core competencies” in EI is self-awareness. Here is what one author said: “When we analyzed the data by organizational level, a striking effect emerged: High-level executives and managers, compared with those in the lower rungs, were more likely to rate themselves more generously on twenty EI competencies than others rated those leaders on the same competencies. The higher leaders were in an organization, the greater the inflation rate”. So the view from the top can be so distorted that leaders can’t see anything but their great leadership, particularly bad leaders that are low on the self-awareness scale. The book’s author seems to think that if leaders would solicit honest feedback and if their subordinates would give it then the leader might change. But they indicate that neither does this very often because both leaders and subordinates lack the belief that change can realistically happen. What can be done about this? One could hope that a trusted friend or other organization might be able to speak into some of these destructive leader’s lives in such a way that they would hear and change but perhaps sometimes it takes a revolution to bring about change.
I am sure my own perception is colored by my experiences but from what I have seen, the leadership dilemma that SGM is experiencing is not a uniquely SGM problem. I believe this could be why other “Big Dogs” are supportive of CJ. He is exemplifying the leadership they identify with and are, thus, supportive of. The pastor of the SGM church I was a part of referred me to a talk by Mark Driscoll at one point. Mark was talking to a group of pastors about how to deal with difficult people in the church and, in my opinion, Mark’s perspective on the “flock” he was called to oversee, was anything but Christ-like.
Time will tell if this leadership crisis becomes a problem of epidemic proportion or if my view is too clouded by my SGM experience to be able to see the good out there anymore. I hope it is the later.
Anyway, Thanks again, Kris!
July 16th, 2012 at 4:16 pm
Bil, similar here — though not quite atheist at this point, agnostic. I grew up in one of their churches, but SGM showed me what it seems most religion is about. I’ve never been happier or more free than I am now.
July 16th, 2012 at 4:26 pm
Kris 12
You mention Megan; she is now divorced and a single mom of five.
July 16th, 2012 at 4:35 pm
I have imagined the discussions C.J. and other SGM leaders have had on this very subject, Kris. I’ve imagined their dialogue with each other and how they’ve rationalized their behavior -- i.e. leaving CLC in the midst of unresolved conflict, uprooting and moving the entire SGM to Kentucky, and so on and so on(ad nauseum).
I did this so I could try and ‘wrap my brain around’ how they could have preached and taught one thing/one way for over three decades and then (literally) abandon their own teachings/directives when it concerned themselves or family members…?
Your post has helped me understand that perhaps they felt free to do these things because their teachings/directives were like you said, “legalistic and extra-biblical” and needful of change.
BUT … like you also helped me understand, while their teachings/directives were/are needful of change I have and continue to RAGE against the apparent double-standards for themselves and their children. It is self-serving and self-preserving hypocrisy at it’s ugliest. It really is a “Do as I say not as I do” mentality.
I know that this has all been said before but like I said previously I have not been able to ‘wrap my brain around’ how they could convince others and more importantly, themselves, that WHAT they were doing and HOW they were doing it was, you know, OKAY TO DO, given their past teachings and directives.
Like Kris explained, maybe they’ve felt that it WAS time to change their teachings and directives. Maybe they did see where their teachings and directives were legalistic and extra-biblical. Maybe they did see and regret where they had (wrongly)counseled and instructed victims to stay with abusive spouses or parents. I really don’t know.
What I do believe and strongly agree with Kris on is her assessment and call for C.J. and SGM leaders: “NEED TO SAY SO” and “GO BACK AND ATTEMPT TO UNDO DECADES OF NOW-WRONG TEACHINGS,”
I will continue to pray that God will open up the eyes (and hearts) of C.J. and the other SGM leaders who have preached one thing and then done another.
July 16th, 2012 at 4:38 pm
One could look at this two ways (three, actually).
1. This is nothing new. The blinding effects of sin built one colossal christian ‘organization’ over two millennia and a couple of similar competitors. They are still in full-bore operation.
2. Each age features false workers who put some new wrinkles on the old game. The key to their appeal is, bluntly, that many of us sheep like it so … and that includes swearing the emperor has clothes on even when he is bald. CF Paul to the Corinthians; Paul to Timothy when nearly everyone had abandoned him for cooler kids who were headlining the conferences.
(CF the ‘New Calvinism’ which is new only because it isn’t …. actually … Calvinism. Jean Calvin would take a whip into their ‘calvinistic’ moneychangers courtyard and end the charade in a moment if he were alive.)
I think the truly ‘new’ insight for me in the past year (which I hope you and many others will ponder deeply) is the christianized-enabling of SGM by AoR and others. I’ve been around the block a lot and assumed there was the usual amount of CYA going on, but not remotely to the level becoming apparent.
Isn’t that, Kris, what you are actually noodling about and, perhaps, a bit discouraged by? Which healthy believer wouldn’t be discouraged, with or without a horse in this race? We are all members of one Body. It is discouraging!
Oh and 3.
3. The Holy Spirit mercifully reveals corporate sin and pleads patiently with sinners in preparation not only for futher discipline if needed, but for revival, providing the little ones don’t give up but turn it into prayer and trust.
I think it cynical to assume SGM was not going to repent (as some may have) or, even now, could not repent. That can only be discerned years or decades in retrospect. The desperate need to repent not only remains, but has intensified. God may have abandoned SGM (and, soon, many collaborating deceivers), but no one wins when that happens. Our job is just to keep bringing it -- simple biblical truth that a kindergartener or, say, a non-Christian would get in a second.
May He have mercy on SGM even now. But, most of all, may the name of Jesus be exalted. That WILL happen. No one and no spirit of man can prevent the Son from being the ultimate center of God’s attention. How cool is that?
July 16th, 2012 at 5:15 pm
XYZ,
Part of the problem with having a Christian experience in SGM is that It truly doesn’t reflect authentic christianity. I was fortunate enough to get saved outside of a church setting and then, after getting mentored by an incredible Christian, got involved in a church. I learned early on that if it’s not in the Bible, it’s not from God.
As I got older I then realized that grey areas are not black and white (unlike everyone’s experience in SGM). Legalism is the millstone that conquers so many saints. SGM pastors will have to explain every burden to the Lord that they put on His children. Legalism kills ones relationship with Jesus. His message is one of grace, mercy and freedom. SGM’s message is one of burdens, finger pointing and slavery.
I’d encourage you to go back and read the word without the SGM filter. It is SO refreshing. SO encouraging and filled with Hope. Past experiences with SGMers will cause you bad memories and pain. But the Lord has a life for you that includes forgiveness, happiness and a hope for the future.
Shake the dust of SGM off of your boots and experience the living God. The God of the Bible.
July 16th, 2012 at 5:17 pm
Xyz,
One more point … Religion is from Satan. A relationship with the Creator is from the Lord.
July 16th, 2012 at 5:22 pm
“if something gets old for me -- as the call for reform within SGM has gotten old – then I don’t feel like writing about it.” ~ Kris
I understand completely, Kris. It’s gotten old because, as you and the commenters have said, CJ and the SGM leaders have refused to change. They were given perhaps their best chance to repent. After so much praying and hoping, we were eager to see them repent and make things right with those they’ve hurt. It was even possible that SGM could be renewed and redirected.
I hope this past year has not been their last chance to repent -- but I don’t know the extent of God’s patience and mercy, concerning men who have been given so much blessing. At what point does this apostolic revelation kick in? :
It’s clear from this statement that the opportunity to recover from a backslidden condition has an expiration date, even given God’s unfathomable mercy. I would argue that CJ and other SGM leaders can talk all they want about the cross, but -- if they continually resist the goads of the Holy Spirit toward repentance -- at some point their rebellion reveals not just rebellion, but a true anti-Christ spirit rejecting the blood of Christ.
This is really a terrifying thing: to *lose* one’s salvation while still noisily proclaiming Christ as savior. All due to pride. This is why I am praying for God to make CJ’s life so unpleasant, so unbearably miserable, that he may -- like the prodigal son -- come crawling back to Father God. Obviously nice talk and accommodation have done nothing to turn him around, so maybe the gutter? It worked for Brennan Manning, who has said:
[part of this B.M. video: http://youtu.be/QY7c6XPagmA ]
I remember, how CJ used to point publicly to Art Shenk as an example of humility. (An administrative pastor at CLC who’d been successful in business, Art had his own spiritual meltdown in the early 90s, in which God took him apart, brick by brick, exposing pride and self-sufficiency. Art was an amazing model of humility and encouragement to others in many ways.) CJ had Art’s example right in front of his face, every day at the office and his own little CG, but Art’s example of repentance and humility was lost on him.
This experience was part of CJ’s having “once been enlightened…tasted of the heavenly gift…made a partaker of the Holy Spirit…tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come….”
It’s very sad, and it really puts the fear of God in me, to stay soft-hearted and open to correction.
July 16th, 2012 at 6:26 pm
@Persona
And not letting the children speak with their father; touted on the inside (those still within SGMish places) as a “hero of the faith.”
And what a faith that is…
July 16th, 2012 at 6:45 pm
I am in complete agreement with you, Kris. I, too, am totally, thoroughly and nauseatingly disgusted by the whole mess. They haven’t changed one bit and any acknowledgement of “sin” is pseudo/partial.
I have been following the whole Gathering of Believers/People of Destiny/Covenant Life/SGM saga for over 30 years. I was involved in G.O.B. in the early 80s. Nothing has changed. I’m quite in shock to see some friends actually RETURN to Cov Life in Gaithersburg after leaving many years ago spouting the same mantra, “things have changed.” The fact is that a deeply-rooted, cultic, power-hungry, controlling, self-serving environment doesn’t just “change”…..
I’ve lost all interest. Evil and deception, once again, prevailed. What’s new….the end.
July 16th, 2012 at 6:53 pm
Thanks Kris for agreement. I just amazed at the clear lack of brain power, lack of the Holy Spirit, and damaged doctrinally people are to stay. And to further my first point on your excellent point, the simplistic danger of having CJ as a leader is shadowed by all blogs, sermons, points, counter points, counter-counter points. I realistically view the future of SGM, what ever becomes of it, ending very badly. Even with Godly intentions.
CJ’s attitude, his spiritual health, and his worldly decision making will continue to transform the work of what the Holy Spirit is doing in SGM’s local churches, into a vast bottomless pit of self defamation, demoralizing, and chronic weak-minded Christians that will be very dangerously luke-warm. So close to luke-warm, CJ’s flock would be in danger of Christ not knowing them or soooo legalistic they never built treasure in HIS Kingdom. There is no way around these points with CJ still in power.
How sad. How terribly sad. Even now as the Florida churches are preparing to leave, or have already left (good job Sarasota!), people feel demoralized and guilty of being led by some mental old guy. Some people I have had conversations with, wont even look me into the eye when they talk about it. They look and sound like those same victims of the Bernie Madoff scheme. Just in shock, guilty of ‘being had’, and anger that has no focus.
Sad.
July 16th, 2012 at 6:58 pm
RE Pampy #25 -- Speaking of people returning to CLC: how did Chris Glass ever make his way back? That was most shocking to me -- that a pastor who had discovered and left the Matrix willingly returned, being accepted again after rubbing elbows with Schmitt, no less.
What is the common element in CLC people repenting of their repentance? It brings to mind the dog returning to its vomit. (2 Pet 2:21-22)
July 16th, 2012 at 7:19 pm
Pampy #25…exactly! It’s painful to watch. I had to walk away for awhile.
Kris, as usual, well said.
This blog has been a place of healing and refuge to so many and to be written off and chided like that? Sickening. I’m tired of being marginalized by those who fancy themselves wiser or more godly than me. Yuck-o.
Sidney
July 16th, 2012 at 8:19 pm
How can SGM leaders justify C.J. leaving CLC contrary to all his teaching?
Someone highly placed in SGM told me this version: CJ was shut out of CLC. When he stood and made a heartfelt confession to his long-time congregation amid a church he loved and had built, he was literally escorted off the stage, unexpectedly surrounded by a group of men and whisked quickly out of the building while others were free to slander and defame him behind his back without him there to reply.
July 16th, 2012 at 8:26 pm
Megan will not let the five kids speak to Kerrin?
Is she a “hero of the faith” inside CLC, with the support of Josh and the pastors to not let the kids speak to their father, or are you referring to her being a hero with the gang heading off to KY which includes her parents? Is Josh complicit?
You shoulda been a pedophile Kerrin, maybe you would have gotten more support……
Ugh.
July 16th, 2012 at 8:30 pm
Keepiginstep 26
The Glass family would return to CLC on vatious occasions over the years and the pastors would fall all over themselves, love-bombing them.
I am guessing they were specially-treated and welcomed because of their relationship to the Laymans’(the wives are sisters). I believe he was a pastor in a different church after they left. Maybe they didn’t prosper outside CLC so, they came back? Anyway, CLC made it easy for them by opening the door wide and they were entrusted with leadership roles. Others were not as fortunate.
July 16th, 2012 at 8:32 pm
Kerrin 23
Sadness upon sadness. Praying for you…
July 16th, 2012 at 8:47 pm
Argus -
I would like to hear a CLC pastor’s version of that day.
Even what was relayed to you sounds like a father who has just asked forgiveness of his wife and teenage children for cheating on his wife and their mother, and expecting the children to come running immediately into his arms — while mom is sitting there crying. It’s crazy. It’s I’m the victim now.
What is worse is that it’s like the same crazy “first time obedience” expected of two year olds, only now it has been employed against adults, with AoR applauding it from the sidelines with their “forgive immediately” mandates.
Then, to top it off, the “adult” father gets mad that mom and kids are having a difficult time processing everthing and HE leaves the house for good. Give
me a break from this nonesense . . .
Kris,
I totally understand how you feel. As many have already said, you really have no idea how God has, and will continue to, use you and this site to free people and even churches from this abusive system.
THANK YOU!!
July 16th, 2012 at 9:16 pm
Bridget,
This is how “Sam McGee” described that day:
July 16th, 2012 at 9:37 pm
In CJ’s mind he is still an Apostle, and Apostles are free to roam the churches they plant. The members however are still to heed the Apostles teachings in regard to faithfulness for the church being that they do not have Apostolic privilege or calling. CJ the apostle answers to no man, only to himself and his God. I thought we all new this. Just as Paul had no home church, CJ has no home church. We should count ourselves fortunate hat he rested his feet at CLC for so long. I need the *barf* emoticon now.
July 16th, 2012 at 10:33 pm
I sometimes wonder if the following passage applies to Mahaney and those still so apparently blindly following him:
One could argue through C.J.’s disobedience and lack of repentance that C.J. is really denying the sovereign Lord. Though there is some greed for money C.J. certainly has shown a voracious greed in other areas such as for power and to be known etc. Is is sad that many are following C.J. Mahaney’s shameful ways and even sadder how this has and will bring Christianity into disrepute.
July 16th, 2012 at 10:46 pm
My take on this is that Mahaney’s ego couldn’t take that he was no longer revered (possibly worshiped) by people at CLC. How much of a hit to Mahaney’s ego that must have been when in the past people gave him long clap “offerings” before he spoke etc. Despite Mahaney writing a book on humility this change of reception must have been just too hard for Mahney to accept.
Sadly rather than see much of this were consequences of his own sin, C.J. Mahaney found ways to blame others and trivialize his own sin.
July 16th, 2012 at 10:49 pm
RE #35: Thank you for expanding on my point, Steve, esp. “One could argue through C.J.’s disobedience and lack of repentance that C.J. is really denying the sovereign Lord.” That is exactly my concern for him and his co-dependent minions.
July 16th, 2012 at 11:16 pm
I don’t understand his attitude. He got the perfect CJ send-off: Better Than He Deserved.
July 17th, 2012 at 12:24 am
Some of the old posts are worth repeating:
Henry
April 19th, 2012 at 11:56 am
I must admit I am seriously embarrassed by Sovereign Grace Ministries board’s post regarding their move to Louisville. Do they really expect members of churches to believe that THEY decided it at a RECENT retreat. Surely that is yet another outright lie? Couldn’t the board just say something like, ‘at the suggestion and prompting of our President de-facto, we submitted and agree with all the plans he’s been hatching for a number of years.’ The trail is a long one.
The donations to Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville over a number of years, all the way down to his family and friends leaving Covenant Life Church because Mahaney couldn’t have his own way and would not face godly accountability. There is now something deeply corrupt about Sovereign Grace Ministries as an organization. It must be opposed whilst protecting the saints. I am now praying for its demise as an organization and that all the churches survive the trauma.
July 17th, 2012 at 12:34 am
I kind of stumbled onto this blog as I was doing some research…and I think it was good that I did. I am a pastor and the son of a preacher who has seen a lot of good and bad in Christianity over the years. The thing that comes across very clearly as I read about SGM and it’s leaders is that this is the same kind of heavey-handed, dictatorial type of “theology” that CJ and many others peddled back in the “Shepherding” movement of the 70s. It seems that as long as the bank accounts and real estate holdings of “God’s annointed” continue to grow, it matters not that they are spiritually and materially bankrupting the faithful.
Any pastor, self-appointed “apostle,” or leader who doesn’t teach the congregants to learn to hear the voice of God without them as a translator should be considered rebellious, which in turn means anti-God. God does not need me as a mediator between Him and his children. Christ is the only mediator.
Those of you who are hoping to find a safer, more scriptural version of SGM, please be careful. Coming from a Pentecostal / Charismatic background, I can attest to the fact that these movements are characterized by very dynamic and powerful leaders who in varying degrees lure the people with some “special blessing” or “new revelation” and then use their “God-given” title as apostle to lord over the believers. This is real abuse and if the Bible wasn’t used to justify it, we’d be loudly denouncing it. Thank God for those of you who are truly caring for the “little ones,” so to speak.
Now that i know that these types of situations are still occurring supposedly in the name of Jesus, I will be praying for those who are in these cults.
July 17th, 2012 at 5:41 am
What Unassimilated said in #11- that is what I wish I had had the eloquence to say! Amen!
July 17th, 2012 at 6:48 am
Unassimilated -- #11,
“All in all, IMO, you have demonstrated more of God’s grace, and Christ love through this blog, and in your efforts than I had ever seen demonstrated in my many years at SGM. In the process, you too have become an SGM Survivor. You have lived within the SGM community, and been effected by its insanity, albeit in a different way than most of us. How could you not? You spent more time caring for and milling over many of us here than our pastors did. When even our families would turn a hostile eye towards us, you kept an honest line of dialogue open.”
AMEN!
July 17th, 2012 at 8:05 am
#40 -- Encouraging post Jonathan….. I am the son of a preacher too!
There is a lot of pastor/elder abuse out there, and in the 80s we didn’t immediately expect it from any supposedly healthy “denomination”. Like a diseased young lady, SGM once looked so pretty on the outside, but inside there was, and is, a cancer that eats away and ultimately destroys. Serious “cutting off” surgery is needed and strong medicines are required. The desperately sick patient could stubbornly hang on for an interminable length of time, eventually dying in the throes of agony, because the Lord says it’s her time. As soon as possible the biggest tumors need to be gone, but they have already tainted so many other cells, but the Lord could restore and resuscitate the remaining cells, if they agree to take ALL of His Medicine. They would remain part of one united body, but be stronger, healthier and more resistant to Abuse, Secrecy and Hypocrisy. Some name changes will be needed for the body, but hopefully a new name won’t hide the ingrained sinful habits that have been learned, adopted and repeated over and over during the CJ years. As a fellow human being we must love CJ, and pray for him, but as a pastor he has failed to report the health of the patient and he is to be pitied.
July 17th, 2012 at 8:42 am
I saw a portion of this posted in another place not long ago.
There’s a lot to glean here if you take a closer look. For example, “He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers.” Your daughters will be servants. Only. Sadly, in much of SGM, there is no other place for them. There’s a lot more than just this one parallel.
Obviously there’s more than just our human disgust at play with everything that has transpired.
Kris and Guy: Thanks for being here. Thanks for taking the time to read and comment on my 11 page story as we were coming out of SGM over a year ago.
On another note, I’ve been told that the two pastors that left the Ashburn debacle have begun a new church. Possibly with some help from Fairfax.
July 17th, 2012 at 8:49 am
I posted at 8:05am, made breakfast and saw my Bible was open, so I read what I saw in front of me and ate (and digested this sobering Word below):
Having just read about CJ, I was impressed by certain words and phrases like “proud”, “destruction”, “unfaithful”, “done wrong”, “no honor”, “angry x 2″ and “they rushed him out quickly”, “he himself hurried to go out”, “separate”, “excluded from the house of the Lord”; I was greatly encouraged by the eighty-one bold “Courageous” priests, eighty (80) bold men of God led by one emboldened priest! Where are more of the bold SG men, especially the older men who have seen? Is Josh still one of the younger bold leaders or did he just wimp out, because he was CJ’s Timothy, CJ’s son in the Lord and he thinks he will always have to owe him much? Is it a case of always appease CJ to remain in SGM if you are a dependent pastor with SGM?
“I do not believe CJ is disqualified from ministry. And so I wish him success in his new church plant and pray that he will prosper.” {Josh Harris -- Family Meeting at Covenant Life Church (www.covlife.org) on Thursday June 28th, 2012}
2 Chronicles 26: 16-21: “But when he was strong, he grew proud, to his destruction. For he was unfaithful to the Lord his God and entered the temple of the Lord to burn incense on the altar of incense. But Azariah the priest went in after him, with eighty priests of the Lord who were men of valor (“Courageous” -- NIV) and they withstood King Uzziah and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Go out of the sanctuary, for you have done wrong, and it will bring you no honor from the Lord God.” Then Uzziah was angry. Now he had a censer in his hand to burn incense, and when he became angry with the priests, leprosy broke out on his forehead in the presence of the priests in the house of the Lord, by the altar of incense. And Azariah the chief priest and all the priests looked at him, and behold, he was leprous in his forehead! And they rushed him out quickly, and he himself hurried to go out, because the Lord had struck him. And King Uzziah was a leper to the day of his death, and being a leper lived in a separate house, for he was excluded from the house of the Lord. And Jotham his son was over the king’s household, governing the people of the land.”
The KING is alive, but someone else now rules. 2 Chron. 27: 2b -- But the people still followed corrupt practices.”
July 17th, 2012 at 8:51 am
Kris and Guy, I pray you keep this site going as long as this SGM cult exists. I was once in another cult where the leader was revered much as C.J. Mahaney is. The talk was about God and Jesus, but “the walk” centered more on the cult leader and his desires. We were told to never read anything speaking against “the church” lest we lose our way spiritually, so we blindly followed and gave the expected standing ovations whenever the revered leader came to visit. For those of us swimming in the middle of the muck it was hard to see, but to this day I am so thankful that God led us out of that legalistic wilderness. I also give thanks to the Lord that we haven’t fallen into the opposite ditch ensnaring many today -- the emergent church and the New Apostolic Reformation. Satan lays his snares any time we leave the pages of scripture and follow a man.
This blog is important because already there have been people who have awakened to the misplaced focus in SGM. They have courageously followed the Lord’s lead and left. My prayer is that their discernment has grown more sharp and their eyes more focused on Christ. Over time more will leave SGM and eventually the group will begin splitting apart. Some of the splinter groups will become smaller cults of their own, while some people will leave and begin to mature in their faith in the grace of our Lord and Savior. God’s hand is not too short to save….
Take a rest, but remember that all it takes for evil men to triumph is for good men to do nothing. God uses us as tools. You and Guy have done a great deal and I pray God continues giving you strength to speak out reasonably and in love. I say the same to many others posting here on a regular basis too. Don’t lose heart. If we could see what God sees and understand how many remaining with SGM at this moment are questioning, we would be encouraged. They’re there for now, but it’s just a matter of time before they leave. Let’s pray we all find healthier churches and sink our minds deeper in the scriptures.
“For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.” (Luke 8.17)
July 17th, 2012 at 8:55 am
Thank you Jonathan in post #40. Well said.
July 17th, 2012 at 8:56 am
Reason in #39 --
CJ Never ever ever had plans to move. He had floated plans on opening a satellite office down south to be near Mohler, but he never ever ever thought about leaving the happiest place on earth.
All that changed when CLC stopped being his happiest place on earth.
July 17th, 2012 at 9:18 am
When you read Sam McGee’s comments on how CJ’s last meeting went and then see what SGM’s story is you can see where CJ’s determination comes from. He is not just trying to hold on…he is hurt…he is like an injured animal. He is damaged to his core but he is responding in the only way he knows how. He is pushing on.
The cold shoulder treatment at CLC is what spurs him on to take his game to Ky. He is determined to do well down there just to spite the CLC group. And he will cling ever more tightly to his RBD group because they are the only friends he has now.
I find it quite ironic that after all his years of teaching shunning to the churches (not officially but in practice) that he is now suffering the same thing he dished out for over two decades.
CJ has his head down and is muttering that he did it before (built up SGM)and he can and will do it again. It doesn’t matter to CJ that this is a different time and a different place. It also doesn’t that he has money to start and a core of people to help. He is determined on his course. Personally I think it will all fizzle out in the end but time will tell.
But don’t look on CJ as just a rogue leader trying to have his way. He is a wounded animal and is trying to save his life and will do anything to accomplish that. It is also a warning to be warry if you are in his way. Wounded animals are extremely dangerous.
July 17th, 2012 at 9:46 am
My take on this silence is that SGM Leadership has been essentially “testing the waters” with what would be allowed with C.J. Mahaney.
- C.J. was allowed to speak at a few SGM Churches and there wasn’t large questioning of his actions.
- C.J. spoke at outside groups and again there wasn’t questioning or rage about this being allowed.
- SGM Leadership assembled a group of partial men to declare C.J. still fit for ministry and again nothing really happened within SGM.
- C.J. at the SGM Pastors’ conference declared his sins “ordinary” and suggested that the group go on the attack against those that were “divisive” and again no major revolt or questioning. C.J. also took back most of what he “confessed” to CLC when the documents first became public.
- C.J. on his own decided to leave CLC and basically not follow his own teaching. No one really revolted.
- SGM decided to move to KY and basically lied about the reason etc. Again no revolt.
- C.J. spoke at large conferences and even talked about his losing heart due to “attacks” on himself with no mention of his own sin causing any of it.
- SGM reinstated C.J. Mahaney as the group’s pope leader and again there was no revolt.
One could go on.
So basically SGM Leadership “tested” the group’s response and found SGM Members and regular pastors passive so they continued. Had there been more reaction then maybe SGM Leadership would have taken a different path or been forced to modify their actions. Sadly the passivity of regular SGM pastors and members has allowed this to continue.
Sadly this just shows how passive most SGM members and SGM Pastors are. Far too many are content to allow sin and hypocrisy of their leadership. If nothing else they find a way to justify leaders sin in their minds.
I am sure a lot of this passivity is due members and regular SGM pastors being inculcated with teaching on “obeying your leaders”, submission, believing the best etc. In some people’s mind they may think questioning leadership is equivalent to questioning God. It is hard to stand up and question when doing so goes against the culture and teaching you been exposed to over the years.
At least 2 churches have cut off giving funding to SGM. That may be one thing that SGM understands: MONEY.
July 17th, 2012 at 9:54 am
Another old comment re: Eric Grover, but so emboldened and good! (Godly musicians sometimes sense the Spirit first?)
http://sovereigngracemusic.org/artists/eric_grover
Persona
April 19th, 2012 at 11:35 am
McGee 178
Regarding the twitter feed with CJ’s name on it but, not many actual posts by Mahaney: I love that Eric Grover left this quote for CJ to read:
“Too many who have undertaken the work of the ministry do so obstinately proceed in self-seeking, negligence, pride, and other sins, that it is become our necessary duty to admonish them. If we saw that such would reform without reproof, we would gladly forbear the publishing of their faults. But when reproofs themselves prove so ineffectual, that they are more offended at the reproof than at the sin, and had rather that we should cease reproving than that themselves should cease sinning, I think it is time to sharpen the remedy. For what else should we do? To give up our brethren as incurable were cruelty, as long as there are further means to he used.
We must not hate them, but plainly rebuke them, and not suffer sin upon them. To bear with the vices of the ministry is to promote the ruin of the Church; for what speedier way is there for the depraving and undoing of the people, than the depravity of their guides? And how can we more effectually further a reformation, than by endeavoring to reform the leaders of the Church?” — Richard Baxter
Great job, Eric.
JK@Eric Grover ~ “Couldn’t you have attended [ the conference] and avoided CJ’s talks? Or asked for explanation? Your post seems petty, though guised in piety.”>> <> 7:05 PM -- 9 Apr 12 via MetroTwit
July 17th, 2012 at 10:35 am
I appreciate the kind words…although I don’t know what to say in response. I think any one of you guys, if you found yourself in the weird place of having stumbled into a mess like SGM the way that we did, would have done pretty much the same thing.
If you really think about it, what other reaction makes any sense? Back in 2007, I tossed up a few posts about our sort of ambiguous SGM experience. I was so surprised when I checked in a day or two later and saw that several people had commented! I’d never expected that. I certainly never expected to hear anything that could be classified as outright spiritual abuse. But when more and more people began to share about their experiences, it didn’t take long for a distinct pattern to emerge.
At that point, what would any normal person do? What is the only logical response?
See, I think it would have been extraordinarily odd (stupid, even) if I would have heard the stories and read the emails (the emails are where the really bad stuff was shared) and not drawn certain conclusions about SGM. I mean, would any halfway thinking person give SGM continual benefit of the doubt?
And would any normal person not respond with empathy for the people who had been harmed by their church leaders?
I think this is what many of the SGM defenders did not grasp…and why the AoR report and the continued blind eye CJ keeps getting from his RBD cronies boggle my mind so much. The bottom line is, I know what I’ve dealt with over the past 4+ years. I know that the stories could not have been fabricated. Maybe some of them were not told from the most objective perspective, but still -- I know the distinct patterns that emerged after hearing hundreds of people describe what happened to them at the hands of their SGM pastors. You’d have to be willfully obtuse not to see the pattern and not to conclude that something was majorly wrong with the way the SGM pastors were trained to view their authority, and with how the pastors were trained to respond to people who came to them exhibiting certain weaknesses and certain needs. Even if one were to bend over backward to give the SGM leaders the greatest benefit of the doubt, it still would have to become clear, after awhile, that something very wrong was happening in terms of the way the organization affects leaders and trains them and teaches them. It would have to become clear that there’s something very abnormal about SGM…and not “abnormal” in the good way, the way that Christians are supposed to be “set apart” from the world. I’m talking unhealthy, unloving abnormal.
So -- I’m grateful that some of you guys found something good and helpful here, and I’m thankful that I got to be a part of that. But truly, it wasn’t anything extraordinary that we did. You would have done the same thing if you were me.
July 17th, 2012 at 10:40 am
@ Kris
So are you saying your almost ready to quit writing the blog?
July 17th, 2012 at 11:02 am
Amen Kris. If any of us hear of Abuse -- emotional, mental, physical, or spiritual… we HAVE to say something! Look at Joe Paterno at Penn. State for heaven’s sake!!! Years of abuse glossed over for reputation, fame and worldly success. Ignoring infractions off the field. Custodian witnesses to the actual physical abuses in dark and secret places and afraid they would lose their jobs! Conspiracies of Silence. (Sound familiar SGM & some SG churches?) We ARE believers, so we are called by God to be bold and to speak up, to even blog in love and to tell the Truth! To say nothing, out of fear or job security, is SIN…. and I’m writing to shepherds and sheep.
July 17th, 2012 at 11:08 am
This is a huge encouragement for those of you who have been courageous enough to speak out.
20 characteristics of false teachers from the scriptures:
http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-radio/play.php?id=21643
July 17th, 2012 at 11:10 am
Kris,
It seems to me that turning your attention somewhere else for a large part of the time is a good thing.
I’ve gone through seasons--sometimes I was reading the blog every day, lately I check in every few days or so.
I wish I could have honest conversations with some folk in “our” SGM church. I hope the Lord will bring that to me in His time. But--right now I am finding some new interests that fill me with joy. I feel my world opening out.
It is amazing to just walk around with joy inside me.
July 17th, 2012 at 11:11 am
I also think it’s okay of things at the ol’ blog are slow sometimes. When it’s time to talk more, we will. I know God is at work…in the hidden places.
July 17th, 2012 at 11:38 am
Steve, I agree this is about money. It’s also about pride, as in #49.
We can’t separate the development of SGM from the fact that CJ and Larry set up this enterprise as their business. As young men, they confused building the Church with building their careers. They deliberately fashioned PDI and CLC as businesses, with a top-down CEO-management-staff structure, to serve customers (the congregation) who could buy the products and services, but have no say in the business. (Thanks again to the commenter who compared SGM churches with neighborhood fitness centers: you can pay dues and use facilities for 20 years, and still have no legal right to influence any business decisions or policies.)
As brilliantly described in the bestselling book, The E-Myth Revisited, they perfected a local (-church) business, then set about selling turnkey franchises to reproduce their success around the nation. They receive continuing franchise fees from each local franchise, plus profits from all products sold by the franchisees.
CJ spent the ’90s consolidating his power base. He eliminated all competing lieutenants, while developing internal regulations (doctrine) to keep management, staff and customers focused solely on PDI products and corporate culture.
When God himself showed up in 1994, CJ warily cooperated, but by 1996 realized he was losing control to the Holy Spirit and Spirit-led customers beginning to exhibit uncontrollable behavior. In 96-97, CJ shut down God’s pesky/merciful attempt to gain control of the leadership and the movement.
In removing and silencing Larry, he eliminated the only potential business competition, and eliminated the last leader who could have continued God’s renewal. Removing Larry also allowed him to streamline the product line to appeal to a wider customer base (The Cross Alone + Indwelling Sin, for the YRR/RBD crowd) that would be cowed into submission by consuming the products.
Also in the ’90s, CJ was getting older and -- like any good founder/CEO -- looking to perpetuate the company. He was also looking to reach a new customer base in the affluent, Gen-Y crowd. In an amazing coup, CJ achieved both by bringing in Josh Harris.
By buying-out Josh’s company (never-asked question: did Josh willingly give up all rights to his NA business ventures, or did PDI pay him for those rights?) CJ acquired Josh’s 1) personal brand and reputation, 2) Josh’s New Attitude mailing list, 3) Josh’s conference-running expertise — ALL BEFORE JOSH COULD SERIOUSLY COMPETE WITH PDI OR BE ACQUIRED BY A COMPETITOR. CJ also got the already-trained/groomed son he’d never had (as Chad was still quite young) to indoctrinate, subordinate, and to hand-over management of the business.
Since God is so amazingly loving, merciful and persistent, he was still able to work within this business system for years, wherever he was allowed. People got saved, discipled, filled with the Spirit; some even obeyed God and sent themselves out into ministry (when PDI/SGM refused to help them). But, finally, the wisdom of Jesus has caught up with them: “you cannot serve God and money.” CJ and his acolytes have repeatedly chosen money and what comes with it (comfort, respect, fame, control). All their actions have demonstrated that SGM and its franchises are businesses, designed to generate profit for the founder and selected, loyal managers.
Having been forced to yield control of his original franchise base in a de-facto hostile takeover by its management, CJ and the corporate-management team have downsized and moved to a more business-friendly area with a new, affluent customer base, and powerful business partners. They are prepared for a hostile competition with the rebellious management team (planting new churches in Gaithersburg and locations of other defecting franchises). A corporate merger and/or new-product development are also possible, to strengthen the corporate base, differentiate their products from anything CLC may produce, and deflect attention away from anything Josh Harris (now a competing brand!) and the blogs may say.
If there are any entrepreneurs in this audience, now is the perfect time -- before SGM can complete its transformation and mount a rebranding campaign -- to publish a book about SGM that recounts the history (as we now understand it), lets the victims speak, and tells the true story of the blogs’ role in bringing about the historic events of July 2011 -- to now. (Even better would be a book-video combination.) Of course, everything would have to be lawyered thoroughly, because we’re talking about generating a product that would directly attack the CJ-SGM brand and revenue stream. Per #49 above, “Wounded animals are extremely dangerous.”
July 17th, 2012 at 11:45 am
“Another Joe” said,
No…not really. Quitting would require making a definite decision. I guess you could say the main idea of my post was, “I haven’t been motivated to discuss SGM much lately because the topic has begun to anger me on a personal level.” But feelings can change. Guy has often teased me about how, when I am most vocal about my apathy or boredom, that’s precisely when things start to heat up again.
July 17th, 2012 at 11:55 am
RE: My Post #44.
I was corrected a few moments ago. Only one of the two former Ashburn pastors are involved in the new church that I mentioned. Also that any support provided by Fairfax does not include financial.
Thanks for the correction! (You know who you are.)
July 17th, 2012 at 1:03 pm
Keepinstep in #58, that is one astute posting. Your take on the reasons Josh Harris was brought in hold insight. I will add that Josh Harris’ entreprenurial upbringing will likely provide vibrant competition, albeit in my mind just as misguided since he has not played the #2 man without ignoring (and thereby collaborating in) a lot of abuse along the way too.
Also, you’re on the mark that they’ll market a new re-branding campaign. That’s what the cult I was once in did. They took on a new name and attempted to improve their image to do damage control, much like crooked businessmen do in an attempt to erase their dirty trails.
Question: Does anyone here think that Al Mohler is truly deceived by C.J. Mahaney’s acts of feigned humility?
July 17th, 2012 at 1:48 pm
LIKE ME MAKE ONE POINT PERFECTLY CLEAR…CONTRARY TO WHAT SGM WILL SAY…
No one at CLC is shunning CJ, his family, SGM staff, or people leaving to go to Louisville!! The pastors and members of CLC have gone out of their way to be kind and accepting regardless of anyone’s view.
Now, there may be some stray members who have done something in this vein but the extreme are very few. I heard of one report of someone posting a nasty comment on SGM’s door. There are a few out there. I’m sure these few are what SGM would highlight.
We have sought folks out, tried to understand, hugged them with tears as they left, attended send-offs for some. The pastors have pleaded with CJ to meet, pleaded with the Board, sent multiple letters to the Board. Members have sought to meet with SGM staff members to get answers to questions. We have treated folks with respect even though we may not agree.
The SGM folks have withdrawn themselves. They are contending that because we have had members meetings and speak openly about issues that we are gossiping and slandering and therefore CLC is a hostile environment which equates to shunning.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
July 17th, 2012 at 2:34 pm
So MAK, let me see if I’ve got this straight….you mean they’re mesmerized by….C.J. Kaa? Or whoever is using him….? Pretty sad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1ILPl5FQaM
July 17th, 2012 at 3:07 pm
I am sure it is more that C.J. Mahaney just can’t take having his sin and hypocrisy pointed out. Of course the way SGM has traditionally defined “gossip” and “slander” as questioning leadership then I guess they could call this as “gossip” or “slander.”
July 17th, 2012 at 3:52 pm
@ Kris
I hope that you don’t give up, as i have stated on this blog many times you and guy have helped me so much. I remember being so angry at how i was treated at SGM. This site and sgm refuge have given me a totally new perspective on LIFE.
I know that your tired of feeling like your not making any headway. The AOR report was a joke, the SGM board is a joke.
Maybe you just need to change the focus of the blog….
July 17th, 2012 at 3:55 pm
Keepinstep --
Its a tale that is to tame for the mainstream, to gossipy for the christian world. When it comes to video, there are many copyright issues, and the question of who may be willing to put up with personal attacks after going on camera? The break point for the SGM story has been and always will be formal criminal charges. Once those are filed, then the door opens. In the absence of that, SGM will continue to to skate the fine line of the law and basic decency in the name of the SGM God.
Forever creating victims while simultaneously garnering support from others. Besides, the SGM story is still unfolding and there is much that still needs to happen.
July 17th, 2012 at 4:16 pm
No.
They are both big boys and they both lead a large group of people, not all of whom completely agree with the direction of travel.
But Al stood with CJ when it was mutually beneficial for the two of them. If Al now admits CJ is a blackmailer and not walking the walk that he has published and led with for two decades, Al will look like a poor judge of character. Plus whatever CJ can bring to Al now is more than a degifted and stepped down CJ could ever do. So right now there is benefit in Al hanging with CJ and several downsides if he cuts him loose.
They both know how the game is played so they will continue to support each other until CJ becomes a) radioactive or b) no longer interesting and able to pull in an audience.
And Pat, I dont think SGM will re-brand. The name has a reputation that CJ will need. But I think you will see CLC, Fairfax and the other churches that signed the Fairfax letter or presented polity papers to SGM last week look to re-brand themselves. You can’t look up Covenant Life Church or Soverign Grace Church of Fairfax on the internet and not get page after page of all the garbage that CJ/SGM have brought down on the denomination/family of churches. So look for the “new association” to pick up a new name as soon as they have to leave SGM over polity issues when SGM/CJ try to push apostolic control back onto the churches. (You heard it here first! :)
July 17th, 2012 at 4:47 pm
Well in regard to re-branding, they did change the PDI acronym from meaning People of Destiny to, Proclaiming/Developing/Investing or something like that.
Perhaps now they will admit that SGM stands for Superior Godly Men. :P
July 17th, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Nick, I agree.
I do imagine, though, that many of the polity position papers presented will toe the party line and back up the return to strong apostolic order that is apparently the name of the game again.
They may try to find some ‘soft’ middle position in which congregations have some appearance of input, but many people are reporting that their pastors have said the SGM will NEVER be congregational.
July 17th, 2012 at 5:56 pm
First, I’d like to thank Kris and Guy for this blog. You both have allowed open discussion and provided a place where SGM members and former members can hear truth that would not come from SGM leadership. Knowledge is power. Because of this blog many have gained the courage to firmly, yet with grace, confront our pastors. You have helped us not feel at the bottom of the church polity food chain, but have helped us to see that we do have input and a vote, even if it means leaving our SGM church.
With regard to your original post in this chain, your feelings are completely justified. The AoR report was as offensive to the survivors as they say our words and actions were to them. CJ’s recent reinstatement and the move to Louisville also kicks each of us in the teeth. Unfortunately, I don’t think he’s doing anything but smiling at future prospects.
Please know that you and Guy are greatly appreciated by all here.
July 17th, 2012 at 6:03 pm
RE #61 Patricia -- thanks for reading and your comments. Interesting that your former cult group changed their name. I don’t think the SGM brand has been tarnished enough for them to change the name, however. I think their rebranding will involve freshening/sharpening the product focus, maybe a new tagline and new logo image.
RE new products, it’ll be interesting to see how CJ, et al process the events of the past year, and what products they generate from the experience. As everyone was saying last year, I’m sure we can expect a sequel to “Humility.” (If his audience had any grasp of Church history, CJ could invoke the image of the bound, arrow-pierced St. Sebastian suffering for his faith.)
At any rate, CJ has, no doubt, suffered much recently, and will not rest until he can monetize the experience by packaging it for an eager audience. Many scripture verses will, themselves, suffer greatly in the process, to get them to support his thesis.
#66 Unassimilated -- good thoughts on the video angle, though I was thinking more of new video clips, rather than gaining rights to existing ones.
I thought of the lawsuit angle, too -- it’s one of the shoes that could drop at any time. However, unless an SGM pastor or SGM staff member is accused of criminal conduct, it may be easy for SGM to dump all blame on the hapless local-church pastors and staff. The discovery process could uncover much, in terms of emails, notes and letters at the SGM level. (I hope Brent has everything well-protected.) However, I’ve never gotten the feeling that any of the victims are eager to pursue a lawsuit. What do you think?
July 17th, 2012 at 6:35 pm
Kris- I consider you to be one of the most insightful and wise bloggers on the internet, especially among those who call themselves Reformed and Charismatic. I pray God’s blessing on you, and I see no need for you to feel the slightest burden to continue to focus on SGM. Be led by the Lord, and let this be low priority for as long as you like, even forever. For those who want to find out more, it comes up on google, and people who need what this blog has to offer will be mightily helped even if we never say another word.
I think what we all need is some haiku time.
Three lines, 5 syllables
7 syllables
5 syllables
* * * * * * * *
C J Mahaney
Flees to Kentucky to Hide
Can one flee from God?
Thirty years of laws
all pastors must obey them
CJ- above them.
Josh says the problem
Is systemic and is real
Submit to Josh? ha!
Long term plans to move-
Not response to CLC!
Want to buy a bridge?
Little girls were raped,
AOR investigates
Main problem-the blogs
CJ promised us
Temporary President
Haha you suckers
Blackmail- common sin
Teens kiss- kick the father out
Blatant hypocrites
Polity changes?
Have we confessed past control?
New boss-meet old boss.
July 17th, 2012 at 6:42 pm
I don’t think CJ will change the name of the organization this time because there is little threat of anyone planning to wrestle the organization from him. Who wants it? Josh surely doesn’t though ironically, he helped pick out the name.
I also doubt Jeff, Dave or John would know what to do without CJ and I agree with those who think Jared M. is most obvious, heir apparent. So, the joy and the pain of leading SGM into the future (until retirement) belongs solidly to CJ.
The flip side of many CLC members leaving to join the L’ville crowd (and more will be leaving soon) is, we no longer run into them in barber shops, grocery stores, restaurants or Starbucks. Though we certainly didn’t shun them and I doubt many have, there really is nothing of substance to talk about anymore and small talk can get awkward.
Without knowing where they currently stand on any issue, innocent comments can inadvertently sound barbed. For example, some pro-CJ/SGMers now consider CLC an ‘unhealthy’ place. So, when they say things like ‘I hope CLC can find its way back to a healthier place” you would need to wade into some pretty controversial territory to find out what they mean and, then address it.
So, I’m relieved to have them gone. In my opinion, the Gaithersburg area instantly became a MUCH healthier place when the grand exodus began.
July 17th, 2012 at 7:02 pm
5yearsPDI, I dig your haiku. What’s needed is some play time with this mess as in Keepinstep’s idea here:
“As everyone was saying last year, I’m sure we can expect a sequel to “Humility.”
I can envision a book titled “How to Play Hyper-Humble with Pride.”
Or “I Get By with a Little Help from my Friends” with a foreword by Al Mohler.
Sorry, but sometimes you just have to laugh in spite of it all.
July 18th, 2012 at 12:34 am
I’ve been reading here (and at other blogs) for about a year now. My family and I have attended a local SGM church for over 20 years. Our family has served our local SGM church in many different capacities over the years including various leadership positions.
We’ve raised our children in our local SGM church and, pretty much, devoted our entire lives and our resources -- tithes, energy, creativity, and LOVE to our local SGM church.
Just recently my spouse and I have decided to leave our local SGM church. You might ask us why have we waited so long to leave…? In a word, HOPE. We have held onto the HOPE that the LORD would open the eyes of C.J. Mahaney and other SGM Leaders. We have held onto the HOPE that the LORD and the Holy Spirit would bring conviction and repentance to them.
We held onto the HOPE that the AoR report would not only affirm what the blog writers and readers have been saying for years but but more importantly, help usher in REPENTANCE and CHANGE for C.J. Mahaney and the SGM Leadership.
We have held onto the HOPE that REVIVAL and REBUILDING would come to the congregations that have been literally DYING ON THE VINE for lack of godly leadership, heavy-handed legalism and extra-biblical demands and teachings that have been placed upon them.
We have held onto the HOPE that C.J. Mahaney, Dave Harvey, and the SGM Leadership team would KEEP THEIR WORD AND PROMISES made to the thousands of SGM church members across the country and around the world that have been listening to them and watching them.
We have held onto the HOPE that our own local SGM pastor would do (and act) as other SGM pastors have acted (and continued to act) i.e. Covenant Life Church pastors, The Fairfax Church pastors, and most recently the Florida church pastors.
We have held onto the HOPE that other YRR leaders that we respected and listened to in the past would (finally) GET IT and (finally) STAND UP and (finally) say, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH IS ENOUGH…!
I’m actually sighing out loud as I type. I think my HOPE is gone.
I know. I know. We are not supposed to HOPE in anyone or anything other than our Father God and our Savior Jesus…!
I KNOW that in my heart of hearts but it still feels like a punch in the gut to realize… I mean FINALLY REALIZE that a part from a MIRACLE from heaven this terribly painful and dreadful story will just get worse and worse.
It is terribly painful to realize that while I’m sure we’ll be missed at our local SGM church — we won’t be missed enough for real change to take place. We won’t be missed enough to cause the hundreds of members who haven’t bothered to read the blogs (ever) or read Brent’s documents (ever)to question WHY, we, after 23 years of faithful church membership have decided to leave.
We are meeting with our local SGM pastor in two weeks to tell him this in person. My spouse has already met with him several months ago (before the AoR report was released) to tell him of our misgivings, our doubts, our questions, etc. Our pastor was very kind and very supportive. He actually agreed with many of my spouse’s misgivings/doubts, etc. about SGM and how they were handling everything. We learned later that our church sent a letter to SGM in support of CLC and the Fairfax Church when those churches (and 17? others) asked SGM to, “…Slow down” and perhaps “…Rethink” it’s rush to get the new Board in place.
But these little ‘glimmers’ of HOPE have not been enough to sustain us or compel us to stay. With each new debacle released from SGM -- the move to Kentucky, C.J.’s re-installment as President, C.J.’s response to the Florida pastors, etc. etc. etc. any ‘glimmers’ of HOPE we had have been squashed or extinguished.
I know that God is completely faithful and trustworthy. I know that the Holy Spirit is completely faithful and trustworthy to bring conviction and genuine repentance. I am just feeling very sad and hopeless tonight.
I’ll close with an old song from my childhood that I dearly love. I hope it brings anyone who is also sad, hurting or discouraged some comfort.
PS) Thank you Kris and Guy for this blog and for your godly, wise, and insightful responses. I am grateful for you both.
The Solid Rock
My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus’ name.
Refrain:
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand,
All other ground is sinking sand.
When darkness veils His lovely face,
I rest on His unchanging grace;
In every high and stormy gale,
My anchor holds within the veil.
His oath, His covenant, His blood
Support me in the whelming flood;
When all around my soul gives way,
He then is all my hope and stay.
When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh, may I then in Him be found;
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne.
-Edward Mote, 1843
July 18th, 2012 at 5:32 am
@ 75 Hurtful but Hopeful
Thank you for your eloquent words. They encouraged us this morning!
May the Lord’s blessings be yours as He leads you to another group of believers where you can use the gifts and talents He’s given you for His glory.
Please continue to pray for us who remain in SGM churches that we would be faithful to continue asking hard questions, to biblically bring correction where needed to our leaders, and to gracefully hold onto the One who alone brings repentance out of His kindness.
We share your HOPE that we will one day stand faultness together before the throne. Your Anchor holds. Glory to God!
TomandDianeKummer
July 18th, 2012 at 7:38 am
HurtingButHopeful, I am so touched by your words. Thanks so much for sharing your experience. I know others who feel exactly as you do and they have also left for “higher ground” so to speak. By higher ground, I mean they are also following that solid Rock our Lord and Savior.
You said it so well.
July 18th, 2012 at 7:43 am
I was ever so slightly encouraged Monday and Tuesday this week by Tim Challies’ negative review of Debi Pearl’s book, “Created to be His Helpmeet,” except he really didn’t mention any problem with the doctrine of authority the book advances. The Kevin DeYoung stance has me bewildered. I’m with you, Kris. I just don’t get it. Thinking themselves to be in the seat of Moses, they fear to have things devolve into the day of the Judges, even if the Holy Spirit does indwell all of those “doing what is right in their own eyes.” They worry about being lax disciplinarians and try to run a tight ship, at least toward the membership, if not really toward their fellow pastors, for in so doing they think they maintain one of the “marks of the church.” I think that, at some level, K.DeY. is a nerd who feels “cool” hanging with C.J. and admires his ability to work a crowd. Maybe that’s all it is. Plus those who want to maintain the traditional gender roles really do feel frequently embattled, giving them a need to stick together. Perhaps this is just a time of waiting, not a time for speaking.
July 18th, 2012 at 9:13 am
Persona 73 --
I dont think CJ is looking for an heir apparent. And certainly not when he has three son in laws that could just as easily fill the bill.
Remember that in picking Josh, CJ picked up someone that already had a “NAME” in the public eye. Someone that already had a ministry and a following. Someone that already had a draw for conferences and was already published.
Jared’s only speaking point is that CJ likes him because he is young and malleable. He has yet to publish, yet to draw in a crowd on his own name, yet to be recognized for his preaching/messages, yet to impress anyone outside CovFel (and only impresses half the folks INside CovFel).
July 18th, 2012 at 9:44 am
Argus in #69 --
I respectfully disagree. You said,
It is my assumption that all the position papers negate apostolic order and control. SGM has telegraphed its attack plan with the Sasser and Baker papers. Everyone knows what road SGM wants to walk down and exactly what they will pull out to justify themselves.
The polity papers presented by the churches are to argue against apostolic control and authority.
SGM had this “show and tell” session to make it appear that they are open and seeking church and elder input. They aren’t, but because they “listened” to the presentations and claimed they “learned a lot” they can now go ahead and do exactly as they wanted to do in the first place. And the churches, through their study and papers, have provided SGM with the weaknesses in the SGM move to apostolic control. The churches have explained why they dont see it as practical nor biblical. SGM just has to study those points and find a small piece of scripture to refute their claim and SGM is home free. At least in their eyes and the eyes of those churches that still drink the kool-aid.
But it is a double edged sword and a good move on SGM’s part. If the churches were to say, “You arent going to listen to anything we say” and not provide a paper, then SGM has the excuse that they sought input but no one stepped up to provide it. That would indicate that the churches were either fine with SGM doing it all themselves or, even better, were actually looking to SGM to write the kind of polity that will “save the day”.
You can see this in who wrote papers. Seven papers were submitted/presented and three of them, that I have read, come from churches that disagree with the direction SGM is telegraphing. (I would imagine that SGM orchestrated a CovFel or Apex church to write one that supports apostolic control so they can claim there were papers on both sides.) That is another reason SGM said that the churches were not free to share their research and findings with anyone that was not an ordained SGM elder. SGM is attempting to hold the evidence to as small a group as possible. Even some kool-aid churches might change is they saw what was coming from SGM.
Now that wont happen because the churches that presented will most likely share with their people and the papers will be open to the public as the members see fit to share with friends and blogs.
July 18th, 2012 at 10:01 am
Hi Kris
I don’t remember if I’ve ever commented here. In the last 5 years I challenged solitary church that had succumbed to patterns of authoritarianism and spiritual abuse. It was in a denomination that would traditionally have very little room for such hierarchy. I appealed to the denomination with the help of some influential people and another institution. I did get some traction and a modest investigation commenced. I felt the scope and the depth of the process was inadequate. They did instruct the church to change their theology and on paper they have. It required pressure from inside the church as well.
Things have changed but organizational change and policy change doesn’t make a lick of difference on a human heart. The same patterns of dysfunction just reveal themselves in other ways. The same weaknesses exist and we just treated the symptom rather than the disease.
I know that you are disappointed, I know that feeling well. Even if the AoR report had come much stronger I don’t know if it would have made that much of a difference. What you have addressed are symptoms of deeply embedded personal issues.
You did accomplish something very good. You announced to these guys and to many others that the people in a local church or an association cannot be insulated from criticism from the outside. Even if there is no tangible formal accountability all it takes is a free template, a $10 domain name and hosting fees to expose any oppressive system to the public.
I don’t doubt at all that some people weren’t fair in their criticism of SGM. I’m sure that some people may have perceived things incorrectly but this is what happens when people are abused and mistreated. Victims of every type of abuse aren’t rational about everything because they have been damaged. It is short sighted and callous to believe that everyone who has been spiritually abused needs to be perfectly rational and fair while processing their intense wounding. This is just the logical consequences of an abusive system. If they had functional and fair ways for people to process their grief and mistreatment in house it never would have had to go public.
July 18th, 2012 at 10:03 am
Not being controlled by SGM snakeoil salesmen does not automatically mean congregational control.
Regular life in churches that disagree with SGM and apostolic control wont look much different. Instead of all decisions being made by 3 or 4 guys who worry about what CJ thinks, they will now be made by 8 or 12 guys who have agreed on the specific issues.
You will see elder boards expanded, most likely with non paid elders, to expand the working base of the elders and to supply them with more input, more knowledge and more wisdom. (In some cases is will be more of the same thing they had, but hopefully, in most cases it will be fresh air and fresh ideas.) They are calling is a move away from “pastor-centric” leadership.
You will also see the addition of deacons to the mix. In some cases, even women will be able to join the administration. Some churches will call care group leaders deacons, others will call their staff deacons, and still other will bring in new people in new positions to fill the deacon offices. So more new people in the mix, not all having the same influence and authority, but still opening up what was rule by 3 or 4 guys in the past.
When you involve that many people in running the church AND you dont have to evaluate every decision you make by the “What will CJ or SGM think about this” rubric, you can do a much better job at knowing what the people of the church think and are concerned about.
Thinking that the opposite of apostolic control is congregation control is a diversion tactic. There are numerous options in between. No one is looking for congregational control. The middle ground is congregational input and congregational acknowledgement for the big decisions a church needs to make.
So don’t let those pastors redirect you with their “congregational” comments. They are just trying to protect their positions.
July 18th, 2012 at 10:29 am
(I would imagine that SGM orchestrated a CovFel or Apex church to write one that supports apostolic control so they can claim there were papers on both sides.)
Your comment above expresses what I was trying to say. I expect SGM would make sure that some supportive position papers were included in the mix so that they could give the appearance of having heard and weighed a variety of viewpoints. That is not unlike what they did with AoR interviews. They openly requested that people who wanted to say nice things about SGM request appointments or send in reports.
Do you have a list of the seven churches who submitted/presented papers? That would be good to know.
Even better, I hope others will publish the full papers. So far we have the Sasser contingent and CLC. I’d like to read the rest.
Only seven papers out of, what, 100 or so churches? I wonder why. Lack of time? Apathy? A willingness to let the committee decide? Or a sense that it doesn’t matter what anybody says anyway? Curious.
The committee has scheduled a couple more days for papers to be presented. Does anyone know if that is still on? Are more papers on their way?
Also, does anyone know how many pastors (and maybe who) showed up to listen to the presentations?
If not many papers and not many attendees, this seems to be shaping up as much ado about nothing, just for show. As expected.
July 18th, 2012 at 10:29 am
Hurting But Hopeful,
My husband and I are in the exact same place. We however are still waiting. We have a meeting to talk to our pastor in a couple of days. We expect to hear that our church is staying in SGM (for now). Sadly, we cannot wait any longer and will tell him so. We had a lot of hope that our church would leave SGM (and they still may), but we are saddened by the lack of courage in the pastors to speak out and the ignorance of our fellow members about the whole fiasco. My CG leader was praising CJ a few weeks ago, and although we love him, we just about tossed our cookies. I think it is time for us to pack our bags, so to speak. A very, very sad day it will be. Not because of our esteem for the institution, but because we LOVE our brothers and sisters.
July 18th, 2012 at 10:57 am
Didn’t I read on here that there wasn’t much notice when they requested a “paper” from the SGM Churches? Not giving much time was a sad but clever move on the part of SGM. This way the didn’t have review a lot of papers that might be contradictory to what they planned to impose anyway.
One thing you can’t say about SGM Leadership is that they are stupid. They may lack integrity and honesty and but know how to put on appearance of considering the view points of churches but then give the churches a short time to produce a document. SGM Leadership can be quite “smart” in how they push things to go the way they want them to go.
July 18th, 2012 at 11:32 am
HurtingButHopeful -- I hear you… we were hopeful too -- for awhile. We left in April after 12ish years in SGM for me (less for my husband). You know the sufficiency of Christ, yet it hurts much when his church splits and when leaders don’t evidence the integrity they had previously portrayed and advocated. We know they aren’t perfect and don’t expect that. May the Lord sustain and strengthen and comfort you and bring you to a new body of believers for fellowship and mutual encouragement in the future.
July 18th, 2012 at 11:56 am
intheNickoftime #82 -- Excellent point. Presenting options as either (a) authoritarian apostolic/elder decisions or (b) full congregational votes on everything is a false dichotomy. There are a number of options between (a) and (b).
I was glad to see the conviction with which CLC presented their position. They’ve studied it and come to their own conclusion. If it fits within SGM’s final polity, okay; if not, they’ll need to withdraw. They’re not trying to participate in a discussion and waiting for SGM to render a final decision; they seem to be moving forward with or without SGM.
If my perception is correct, I congratulate them on their move toward independence.
July 18th, 2012 at 1:35 pm
Excellent Post!
keepinstep
July 17th, 2012 at 11:38 am #58
July 18th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
I have read CLC’s polity, Fairfax’s polity, SGC Indiana’s polity and Grace’s polity (San Diego). All of these churches were able to pony up a paper on the extremely short notice thrown out as a defense tactic by the SGM board. As Whirlwind said, they are all moving in their own direction with polity. They are trying to help SGM see the light but they are not doing so hoping SGM will give their polity a stamp of approval. Most of them are beyond that. Most
SGM gave the churches such a short window in the hopes that no one would be able to respond. Then they could write whatever they wanted and have the excuse that they asked for input but no one stepped up. Still throwing out the ol’ Dave Harvey type of misdirection plays that didn’t work the first time.
This polity paper is a very difficult thing to write. It takes lots of study and discussion and time and writing. No one could do an exemplary job in the short window offered by SGM. Most of the churches mentioned here have been working on the polity issue for months and months. The seven churches who were able to meet the deadline were able to do so because they were already mid-way through the process (or done) of writing new polity for their own use in their own churches. That is why we know that most of the papers presented were against apostolic control.
SGM also knew that the one or two papers in favor of CJ’s type of extra local control were already written as blog posts or PC projects. They had been completed earlier and were simply and quickly reworked to fit the confines of what the SGM committee wanted to see. (I believe that SGM set the short window knowing that they had one or two pro-control papers already “in-hand”, and they hoped that these would be the only papers proffered by the churches.)
So again, most of the seven churches that submitted papers are not for extra local apostolic authority and control. Most of the signatories of the Fairfax Letter are not for extra local apostolic authority and control. Many of the Florida churches that were spanked and derided by CJ at their last meeting are not for extra local apostolic authority and control. And there is a large group of churches who are busy, struggling, out of the loop or dealing with their own issues that are also are not for extra local apostolic authority and control, they just haven’t had time to let everyone know it. Only a few CJ loyalists and kool-aid drinking elders are actively seeking to have CJ, Harvey, Mickey, John and Pursewell taking an active part in the goings on and governing of their churches. (And why not, they have done such a great job so far!)
July 18th, 2012 at 1:44 pm
Hurting, Lost and EMSoliDeoGloria --
My heart aches for your trials and I feel sorrow at your loss of friends and community.
But I sincerely hope that you have informed your friends and acquaintances know the reasons you left. I know you have to do what is right for your heart and the safety of your family. But you should also care enough to let those close to you know know the house they worship in is on FIRE.
You don’t need to run up the aisle screaming but you do owe those with whom you have shared a relationship over the years a thorough explanation of what your have observed, what you have done to rectify things and why you are leaving.
It was/is an SGM control device that said you could only leave if you met with the pastors and you could only speak to them about leaving. The building is on fire and the least you can do it let your friends know. After they know, they can make their own decisions, but you will have cared enough to sound an alarm.
July 18th, 2012 at 2:34 pm
Comment #90 -
As long as you realize that sounding the alarm could very well cost you your “friends.”
Uncovered, #81,
I believe you are new here, welcome.
I just wanted to say that I disagree with some of what you said, although I appreciate the thoughtfulness you put into it. Going public is a huge decision based in wanting the truth to be told. I believe that can be done accurately, regardless of how much trauma one has been through. Often, it is cathartic for victims/families to speak out about the injustice in the hopes those crimes are not repeated.
July 18th, 2012 at 5:30 pm
Happymom said:I just wanted to say that I disagree with some of what you said, although I appreciate the thoughtfulness you put into it. Going public is a huge decision based in wanting the truth to be told. I believe that can be done accurately, regardless of how much trauma one has been through. Often, it is cathartic for victims/families to speak out about the injustice in the hopes those crimes are not repeated.
There can be a price to be paid for speaking out. I did speak out and I’m being sued by my former pastor (should hear judge’s decision in the next week). Reading SGMSurvivors.com allowed me to identify what I was dealing with in my own church. The stories and abuse patterns I saw here matched my own.
There is a lot at stake for going public. Many, many Christians believe I am wrong for publicly naming my pastor and church. Some are furious at me and I still get e-mails. Some believe the only response for dealing with a spiritually abusive church situation is to leave and let God deal with it (and scripture is pretty clear that he will). I couldn’t stand by and do nothing. Since beginning the blog, what I thought had been going on for 4 years has actually been going on for more than a decade.
There are no clear and easy answers. I would never encourage anyone to choose the path that I took. It has cost me and my family dearly ($$, emotionally, physically, and a huge amount of time). Be careful.
July 18th, 2012 at 5:45 pm
I mentioned I did not advocate shouting in the halls (publishing on the net or in newspapers). But speaking words of truth to friends is what friends do. Like the saying, Friends dont let friends drive drunk! Real friends dont allow friends float along without a clue. It is the cost of friendship.
HappyMom,
If you lose those “friends” it makes one wonder whether they were really friends or just people we sit next to in church…
July 18th, 2012 at 6:05 pm
“There can be a price to be paid for speaking out. I did speak out and I’m being sued by my former pastor (should hear judge’s decision in the next week). Reading SGMSurvivors.com allowed me to identify what I was dealing with in my own church. The stories and abuse patterns I saw here matched my own.”
HappyMom
This is the first I have heard that your former SGM Pastor Fairfax??? Is suing you. sorry to hear about this. I wonder how he justifies this in light of Scripture?
Of course the way many SGM pastors play is that rules in Scripture only apply to others including Peacemaker prrinciples.
July 18th, 2012 at 6:14 pm
Oops that was JulieAnne being sued and not HappyMom. Was JulieAnne’s church an SGM Church and pastor?
July 18th, 2012 at 6:34 pm
I do have a response to this as I am a former SGM member who was shunned after a mistake in my life the Lord used to radically change me for the better. I have grown in my relationships and the Lord used the circumstances surrounding my trouble to reveal many things to me, including the corruption behind the SGM and its people. Anyway, my testimony in another post… LOL
In regards to this, what I find amazing is that there are certain people responding to this post that are actually the very thing they “talk” against. I know from personal experience that a particular person who responded (no need to call them out), has attacked my family, my sister with the mean a hurtful doctrine of SGM, preying on the very thing they preach against. And now they sit here and talk about how bad or un doctrinal SGM is/CJ is, yet they survive on the very thing they are talking against. I would caution you brethren to heed what is in your heart as apposed to what is spoken here as there are always wolfs among the sheep.
I pretend to be nothing more than a man who questions the church and organized religion as a whole because of what SGM has done to me and my family. The disgust I have for the people who are involved with this so called ministry is beyond reason and I find myself unable to talk about it without having to check my rage. SGM tore my family and I thank God we were able to salvage part of it.
-Bernie
July 18th, 2012 at 7:24 pm
Steve240, Julie Anne’s situation was not within SGM. Here is her blog: http://bgbcsurvivors.blogspot.com/
July 18th, 2012 at 7:42 pm
InTheNick- I’ve read CLC’s paper. Are any of the other papers publicly available? I’d like to read what I can because I’m very interested in the subject and what I can learn about it through this whole SGM experience.
July 18th, 2012 at 8:17 pm
Steve240: I’m sorry I wasn’t more clear. I was in a church that I believe to be abusive. Before and right after leaving that church, I started searching spiritual abuse on the internet and found this site. I stayed and learned so much here. (BTW, I have friends who are/were in SGM and visited a SGM church for a few wks.)
Eventually, I posted a Google review about my church experience and then the reviews were removed. I then started a blog and was sued by my former pastor for defamation.
I’ve read so many personal stories after my story went viral and I’ve learned that they really are the same stories, just change the details. As I say on my blog, pastors seem to all have graduated with honors from the Creepy Spiritual Abuse School (CSAS) because they use the same tactics of control, manipulation, twist the same Bible verses, anti-biblical discipline process, shunning, mind control, inner circles, sin-sniffing, etc.
And now that I have my own spiritual abuse blog, I’m getting the same junk Kris and Guy get probably on a regular basis: how unbiblical my blog is, that it’s just a bunch of whiney, disgruntled gossipers who have pastoral authority issues. Blech!
Interesting story -- because of the media attention, an old friend got in touch with me. I haven’t seen her in 14 yrs. or so. She sent me her own spiritual abuse story and surprisingly, it was her experience with an SGM church. As I read the story, it sounded familiar to me. The more I read, I knew I had heard the story before. She relayed to me one of the stories I’ve read here (I can’t remember what the name is but the guy was on the praise team, was a pedophile, and they protected him, but abandoned the wife and her many children). My friend knew this case and others up close and personal. Yup, the stories here are real, not made up. Not like you all needed that validation as I believed you already, but what a small world.
So, I’m fighting the battle along with you all and check in from time to time because this was where the lightbulbs went off for me.
July 18th, 2012 at 8:36 pm
Julie Anne,
I am so sorry for what you’re going thorough. I’ve heard of your story, I think on TWW?
I realize the risk in going public and it is huge. But considering what we experienced first hand, we felt we had no choice. (horrible mishandling of child sex abuse)
IntheNickoftime,
Of course. We discovered that none of them were true friends. I think friendships in SGM can be built on very shaky and conditional grounds.
July 18th, 2012 at 9:53 pm
Kris—Long time since I’ve posted here, but I have been reading the many SGM Survivors updates over the months. The last time I read anything was the AoR statement. I have to admit, it was very overwhelming to read all that and the many interesting comments. I can’t imagine how it’s been for you, Kris! Thank you for all your patient and hard work for the blog. You have been helpful and encouraging to me personally. I am still sad and hurt that SG has taken from our family something that I’m still praying will be restored to us. I’m still beating up on myself for not realizing sooner what was going on in the very controlling SGM church we attended as a family and that I hadn’t realized it in time. Gone are the years that we would’ve had with our kids that thought everything had to revolve around the church. I have to work at not being so very disappointed. I pray you continue this blog.
July 18th, 2012 at 10:41 pm
Julie Anne
Thanks for clarifying your story. I remember reading about it now.
It is something what some supposed men of God will go through to apparently try and clear their conscience and feel right in their own eyes. The pastor you were involved with sued you. C.J. Mahaney’s apparent way was to call what was brought up about as “gossip” and “slander” or somehow not done the right way.
It is something to see Mahaney get such a bruised ego but then have no empathy for how he slandered Larry including statements such as rather be dead than do what Larry supposedly did.
July 19th, 2012 at 9:28 am
Earlier, Rose had mentioned Tim Challies’ review of Debi Pearl’s Created To Be His Helpmeet. I found it rather surprising, considering Challies’ audience, that he actually criticized Pearl’s book pretty harshly. But it was interesting, too, to note that at the end of the first half of the review, among the half-dozen or so books he said he would recommend, among them were 2 by SGM folks -- Carolyn Mahaney’s book, and Dave Harvey’s When Sinners Say I Do.
I wonder if Tim Challies has any idea whatsoever that SGM provided a welcoming environment for people who embraced Debi Pearl’s teachings? Arguably, much of what Debi Pearl would have women believe about themselves -- that they are responsible to submit to their husbands almost no matter what, that they are hugely responsible for men’s lust issues, that wives must give up the booty any time their husbands want them to -- is precisely what Carolyn Mahaney and many others within SGM have also taught. While the SGM books Challies recommends as good alternatives to Created To Be His Helpmeet may not spell things out as harshly as Debi Pearl does, and while they may avoid some of her blatant errors in theology, they were easily the “gateway drugs” that led people to think along the same lines as Debi Pearl.
And yeah, sure, the culture in many SGM churches has become much less blatant about how these ideas are promoted. It’s been awhile since CJ has given his Heart Of Modesty sermon, or since CJ and Carolyn have giggled on stage about the burning passion of their sex life. But few leaders in SGM have ever expressly repented of the decades of one-dimensional approaches to women’s roles in marriage (one of the criticisms Challies has for Debi Pearl’s book -- that it gives highly non-nuanced advice).
I continue to be boggled by why someone like Challies continues to plug SGM materials…especially when he does so right after condemning a book that is basically the same as what Carolyn Mahaney always taught (just minus the sugary voice and the Ann Taylor wardrobe).
July 19th, 2012 at 11:17 am
I think one of Challies’ failures is that he doesn’t have a problem, at least that he mentioned, with the Pearls’ bad theology about delegated authority. I haven’t read any of the SGM books Challies recommended, but, when I skipped ahead in Pearl’s book to the chapter written by Michael Pearl and realized that he believes God gives up authority and control to men when he delegates authority to them, I saw what was the root of all the other bad theology.
July 19th, 2012 at 12:36 pm
Kris 103
CJ still speaks on the topic of marriage:
http://events.sbts.edu/alumni_academy/
July 19th, 2012 at 11:06 pm
Someone asked if Mohler is fooled by Mahaney. Maybe he is willingly deceived because he’s bought into a certain view of the world for whatever reason- emotional, financial, political, all of the above, whatever. He’s had so many wake up calls in the last five years that he should know better by now. But like someone said, publically splitting from Mahaney would discredit the whole business model so it will be the same kind of extend and pretend games we see in the financial markets now.
July 19th, 2012 at 11:27 pm
@NameGoesHere #106: word : Good Post
Spot on!
July 19th, 2012 at 11:29 pm
I wonder how CJ will react if the dissenting SGM churches do not part quite as “amicably” as he desires?
He must be thinking of every possible scenario and had at least some of his responses vetted by his attorney-du-jour by now.
July 20th, 2012 at 7:28 am
“I wonder how CJ will react if the dissenting SGM churches do not part quite as “amicably” as he desires?”
It wouldn’t surprise me if Mahaney/SGM offers some type of financial incentive for these churches to leave “amicably.” Perhaps it would be a refund of contributions the leaving church made to SGM or something like that. This is just a hunch. I have no information that this might be the case.
A financial offer like this might be appealing to some of the smaller struggling churches. SGM does considerable money saved so doubt it would be that hard on SGM offering a financial “settlement.”
Does anyone know what SGM is going to do about all those houses they bought around CLC? I am assuming they were using these for housing students in the pastors’ college. I am sure SGM selling these properties will generate even more cash.
July 20th, 2012 at 8:53 am
@Steve240 wrote “Does anyone know what SGM is going to do about all those houses they bought around CLC? I am assuming they were using these for housing students in the pastors’ college. I am sure SGM selling these properties will generate even more cash.”
The townhouses are for sale. One just sold. Another has been on sale for a while (the one the Reinke’s lived in) and a note on the door says that it is a “short sale”. Not sure the status of the others.
July 20th, 2012 at 9:00 am
When the dissenting churches, apparently led by Fairfax (with numbers steadily growing) do part ways, perhaps as early as 2013, you can be pretty sure that CJ won’t be making “blackmail-sounding” phone calls to threaten to reveal their childrens’ sins! That might be the ONE lesson he learned!
Fairfax suddenly found some boldness from somewhere…. anyone have any insight on this?
July 20th, 2012 at 9:20 am
Let Us Reason #111
I wonder if the way SW suddenly bolted last year helped them to begin to see things from another angle.
July 20th, 2012 at 9:22 am
Welcome Bernie Smith. I was wondering who else might notice the “wolf” talking and treatening like he was one of us in our sheep clothing. Keen eye!
We will admit we are here against SGM practice and on this site with the hopes of being educated and encouraged. We also try to educate and encourage (with strength)others here through a healing season. We each go through that process differently.
However, if you post on here and don’t say (speak the honest truth!!) that you are a part of defaming others, demoralizing them, and mocking chronic weak-minded Christians then you yourself may be dangerously luke-warm. So close to luke-warm, that you too might be in danger of Christ not knowing you! or soooo legalistic that you might never build treasure in HIS Kingdom. Are you a SURVIVOR of SGM or are you really just loving the jazz of mocking and hanging with your SGM crowd who think you forgot we can all read Facebook?
Ladies and Gentleman watch out for the profitts. uh…Prophets.
July 20th, 2012 at 9:24 am
Kris,
Knowing you had all the complements and attention that this blog can bring and especially if it gets a bit gushy, the truth is..not everyone would do what you have done even from the get go. My family had no place to go and when God used you and Gus, He brought us renewed hope. Not some fleating emotion but honesty in a world we found lost of the truth, reality in a world that slipped away like chalk on a wet sidewalk and you helped us seek the solid ground of the Word again with out pounding us with a bunch of disciplines. Your natural way of calling things out onto the carpet gently lead us back to the true source of God’s word and all of us are sure there would have been many additional years of pain, tears shed, hearts broken, and insecurity that would have continued without the blogs. Thanks to your family and Jim’s we can keep our head above water no matter the water gauge. Take a break when ever you need to. We are always praying for you when you are away and when you return, we will be right here waiting for you, hopefully to bless you as much as you have us! SMP
July 20th, 2012 at 9:28 am
SMP -- Thanks!!
July 20th, 2012 at 9:41 am
After reading Kris’ post this morning, I was struck by the similarities of the unfolding SGM saga to the book of Joshua, specifically chapters 6-9. There’s a true battle for souls, and the survival of the sheep that remain, but deceit, power and greed (CJ) and “peace making” (Josh) have caused serious set backs in the battle. But, as is revealed in the book of Joshua, God is faithful, and in time will reveal all that is hidden. So we can hope that God will do the same thing with SGM.
Kris, you’ve played a tremendous positive role in this battle. Like Joshua, you and those who have brought to the light the darkness that has infiltrated SGM may need to march around “the city” 7 times. That takes courage. I know it is discouraging. It would be easy to fold under pressure, to say that you are done for now. Everyone needs to remember that this ultimately is not a battle surrounding CJ or anyone else. It is a spiritual battle between powers and principalities. Many of us, when fighting spiritual abuse in a church, have thought it sufficient to march around once -- maybe leave the church, write a letter to a pastor/elder, what have you. Perhaps threats from the enemy strikes back at you causing fear that shuts you down spiritually and emotionally. We need to be strong, and continue marching.
In the end, keep on fighting the good fight, keep on shining the light on the darkness that prevails, keep on marching. The the battle and the victory give glory to our God.
Christopher
July 20th, 2012 at 10:13 am
Steve240 said,
It occurred to me that among the many little factoids that would indicate SGM officials are being less than truthful about how long the move to Louisville has been in the works, SGM’s real estate purchases would stand out as fairly obvious proof that the organization intended to remain in Gaithersburg permanently.
Really, SGMers -- how can you stand by and accept that you are being lied to about this relocation? Sure, maybe it’s true that in the long term, SGM will save some money because of lower cost-of-living expenses in Louisville. But how long will it take for those savings to compensate for the out-of-pocket expenses it’s taking to find new facilities and shed townhomes and pay moving expenses? Not to mention, Kentucky is not exactly as easy a drive away from many SGM churches the way that Gaithersburg was.
Even if SGM will save money in the long run (and that’s still somewhat debatable), it seems so clear that headquarters had to be moved because of CJ’s falling-out with CLC. Until CJ got called on the carpet last year, there was not a shred of evidence to indicate that a move to Louisville (or anywhere else, for that matter) was in the works, even in the talking stages.
Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it true that at least a few of SGM’s leaders (including CJ himself) have in the past five years or so (some more recently) completed extensive renovations to their homes -- renovations that would appear to have been done to increase the homes’ serviceability for the leaders’ own families, rather than just generic improvements to make the properties more easily saleable?
Also, isn’t it true that SGM has recently (within the past few years) invested in improvements and renovations to the SGM offices in Gaithersburg?
Who does these things -- who invests in renovating properties for specific purposes (and not just to increase generable marketability) -- if the possibility of relocation is really on the horizon?
No, contrary to what SGM leaders have said about the move to Louisville, it seems pretty obvious that the relocation was a recent development, something that only came up because CJ got mad and wanted to leave town. Maybe there are some cost savings in the long term. But no thinking person buys up a bunch of townhomes just to shed them a few years later…no thinking person pours a bunch of money into renovating a home (making it into two separate apartments to accommodate extended family) only to slap the house up on the market a year or two later…no thinking person invests funds in modifying and improving offices that they truly know they might be leaving in a year or two.
SGMers -- you’ve been lied to. Again. Tell me again -- why is this OK?
July 20th, 2012 at 10:31 am
Louisville is cheaper than DC is but it is average for the United States in terms of cost of living. There are larger and cheaper cities SGM could move to. The proximity to SBTS is the only reason to pick Louisville.
They might have been thinking about moving the PC there but they wouldn’t have bought that land if they were going to move everything.
July 20th, 2012 at 10:40 am
I agree that it is basically a lie that SGM was planning on moving before C.J.’s sin and hypocrisy came to light and the subsequent fallout between CLC and C.J. Mahaney.
The fact that this new location is further from local CLC Churches especially the bigger churches (CLC, Fairfax, Philadelphia etc.) is baffling. Perhaps C.J. sees that as a “plus” to be located to where he is so isolated.
July 20th, 2012 at 10:54 am
NameGoesHere said,
Those townhomes in Gaithersburg -- the same ones that either are for sale now or have already been sold over the past month or two -- were purchased expressly for PC students, and (if I’m not mistaken) purchased fairly recently (within the past 5 years). This would have been a bizarre way to invest the organization’s funds if it were really true that a move to Louisville had been even the vaguest possibility.
July 20th, 2012 at 11:22 am
Kris
What might be interesting would be to post tax records. Didn’t you have a post a while ago that had those tax records that show when the property was purchased etc? It seemed like a significant amount of property SGM owned.
Some of that property might have been CLC? I remember seeing some tax records posted were for CLC buying some houses hear the CLC building.
Just having to pay the Real Estate commission to sell a property means one loses 6%. Depending on when the bought the property, the value could be up or down. SGM would be lucky to break even on the sale of these properties.
July 20th, 2012 at 12:12 pm
Now that I’m thinking about this particular SGM oddity, I’m curious -- does anyone out there have reliable knowledge about when the various purchases and construction projects were undertaken? I’m especially wondering about improvements made to SGM’s Gaithersburg offices in the CLC facility, the offices that they’re now vacating.
It seems to me that all the facts -- not to mention common sense -- indicate that until fairly recently (as in last fall or so, when CJ and the sons-in-law left CLC in a huff), nobody within SGM had even the vaguest idea that a move to Louisville might be in the works. Yet SGM leaders have made statements asking people to believe that they bought townhomes for PC housing, made family-specific (and sometimes expensive) improvements to their own Gaithersburg homes, and poured more of the organization’s money into the Gaithersburg SGM offices, even as the idea to vacate and move hundreds of miles away was being noodled around as a “cost-cutting measure”? And that this move has nothing to do with CJ’s personal snit as he runs from CLC?
Really?
How dumb do they think people are?
And if people are still attempting to “believe the best” of their leaders and are still willing to buy into such a ridiculous story, I just wonder why?
July 20th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
I was reading my #122 when it occurred to me that if a corporation tried to spin such a relocation story for their investors, the investors would never buy it.
I mean -- imagine there’s a corporation out there whose CEO has become iconic and synonymous with the company’s brand. I’m trying to think of a good present-day parallel, but the best example I can come up with is from the past. So I’ll run with it. Let’s turn the clock back 5 years. Steve Jobs is still alive, still running Apple. In our hypothetical scenario, Steve Jobs runs afoul of a bunch of his key executives -- a bunch of the designers and engineers who helped him develop the iPod and the iPhone, let’s say. He’s also locked in a major conflict with several of the other board members.
Let’s also say that Jobs has been fostering a relationship for a long time with Microsoft. Yeah, I know that Bill Gates has been out of the picture there for awhile, but let’s just pretend Gates is still at Microsoft.
In the midst of all this, it comes to light that Jobs has engaged in some potentially illegal behavior. The conflict with his designers is brewing. So is the conflict with some of the board members.
Suddenly, BAM! Apple announces that the headquarters are being moved from California to Redmond, Washington. But -- the move has nothing to do with Steve Jobs’ current difficulties. Matter of fact, the move has been on the table for a long time as a “cost-cutting” measure.
What would Apple’s investors think?
Would anyone believe that such a move is unrelated to Steve Jobs’ personal woes?
Now -- why are the SGMers who accept their leaders’ blather about the move to Louisville proving themselves way more gullible than investors in a corporation?
Why aren’t more people (particularly pastors of “local” SGM churches) asking the harder questions? And demanding real honesty?
July 20th, 2012 at 12:41 pm
Some of those townhomes were purchased over 5 years ago, maybe more like 7. It was before the market tanked and thus top dollar. In the end, they had about 5 townhomes there. Another was purchased by a member in fairfax to rent to pc families. Then the Reinkes townhome in the same development, was not a SG townhome but their own that they left in feb.
I don’t know all the extent of sg renovations, but I do know of a top sg family who was planning on making upgrades and had been putting it off because of other priorities. But they were eager to fix up their place. And thus Kris, in my mind, validates your conclusions that this was not planned to depart so suddenly. I will grant that maybe, maybe it became a consideration two years ago when they could not get a class to hold pc ( and it was just the men doing the trip to north africa) and economic factors.
My other issue is the large gifts from sg and mahaney’s to SBTS. If pc was the best way to do seminary (at least that’s bill of goods they sold us), why in the world would you not give those funds to sponsor families and help them out to attend pc? So it does make me question motives.
I could keep going, but it has felt that the lowly congregant breaks their back to support and build up both their local church and sg financially, only to now have our eyes open and be disgusted at what we gavw too.
July 20th, 2012 at 12:58 pm
Hi Bernie. I’m sorry to read that your family has been damaged by SGM. I’d say climb aboard the boat, but who knew the boat would have to be bigger than the Titanic? (For so long I thought I was rowing alone in a little dinghy. I guess it is good to know you’re not alone to a certain extent.)
July 20th, 2012 at 12:59 pm
Just a reminder that in all this moving and cost cutting, no one’s salaries have been appropriately reduced to save money!
July 20th, 2012 at 1:19 pm
IntheNick 126
..but a lot of x-SGM employees had to look for other jobs.
July 20th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
I am not one to speculate (look at my past posts if you doubt), but I can’t help but wonder if not only have their salaries not been reduced, but if they were also given money toward the move. Hope they remember to have their taxes reflect all the benefits they’ll be receiving with the move to KY.
July 20th, 2012 at 1:38 pm
Please edit the comment about pedophilia. It is offensive.
July 20th, 2012 at 2:31 pm
rorschach --
Which comment? Have I missed something?
July 20th, 2012 at 3:09 pm
Someone emailed me with the following information about two of SGM’s townhomes:
7409 MUNCASTER MILL RD
GAITHERSBURG 20877
This property was purchased from private individuals by SGM for $390,500 on April 1, 2008.
——————
7411 MUNCASTER MILL RD
GAITHERSBURG 20877
This property was also purchased by SGM on April 1, 2008, for $709,500.
——————
[Edited to remove incorrect info]
——————
It would appear that in the spring of 2008, SGM went on a real estate buying binge, spending over $1,000,000 of the organization’s money on private residences.
These transactions seem to demonstrate that as recently as four years ago, there must not have been plans to move from Gaithersburg. For an organization that has always engaged in long-term planning and is known for its purposeful decisions (remember the talk of SGM’s “7-Year-Plan” that appeared in Brent’s documents?), it would be out of character to make such a major change without having had it on the drawing board for several years. And if a move had been in the works 4 years ago to eventually move the PC to Louisville, it seems sort of crazy to go out and invest in housing primarily intended for PC students.
July 20th, 2012 at 3:32 pm
[edited because Kris' original info was incorrect]
July 20th, 2012 at 4:06 pm
[edited because Kris' original info was incorrect]
July 20th, 2012 at 4:14 pm
[edited because the original info was incorrect]
July 20th, 2012 at 4:15 pm
Persona and Oswald -
My mistake, the Lochaven address has been removed, as my eyes played tricks on me when I was reading the records. It does NOT appear that SGM purchased that house.
July 20th, 2012 at 4:16 pm
Sorry, folks, but I’m just going to go ahead and delete all the comments about the Lochaven property so as not to confuse anyone else.
I apologize for the error.
July 20th, 2012 at 4:27 pm
I have to say, being that we know that SGM has millions in its reserves, and that they could afford to spend a million for property
in 2008 tells me that their claims of needing to save money are greatly exaggerated.
Besides, when we moved in from the Dustin building, where PDI/SGM were located for years, It was repeatedly stated that the new facility was our permanent home.
The fact that it was our permanent home was also one of the justifications for spending so much on the space. As Brent has stated, the DC Metro location was intentional as to help foster relationships in the most powerful city in the US.
They aren’t basically lying, they are in CJ speak, systematically, categorically, and intentionally deceiving themselves, as well as those around them.
July 20th, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Kris,
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/Reference/2011_financialstatement3.pdf
Other interesting info, Total assets by year for SGM --
Lets remember this and look to see just how much the relocated SGM saves -
2011 Payroll & Compensation $3,006,237
2011 Travel $ 653,700
July 20th, 2012 at 5:26 pm
Seems to me the main thing that costs less in L’ville is real estate. They won’t save much money on other things, even salaries, if they continue to pay their employees the same salaries they got in G’burg.
And, I agree with those who brought up the fact that it costs LOTS of money to relocate.
SGM is selling much of their online stock on clearance so, they will loose money there, too.
I do hope CLC is transparent about how much they will give SGM for their office space. Especially since SGM did not comply with the contract to give 24 months’ notice before they vacated.
July 20th, 2012 at 6:14 pm
“I do hope CLC is transparent about how much they will give SGM for their office space. Especially since SGM did not comply with the contract to give 24 months’ notice before they vacated.”
If that is the case then CLC should be under no obligation to pay SGM for their portion of the CLC building for 2 years. During those 2 years they could even require SGM to continue paying their share of the maintenance etc.
In most commercial leasing I am sure what I suggest would happen. If one party wants to leave early they can but will have to pay the remaining time period.
On the other hand, SGM might be able to sublease their space and I would bet that CLC wouldn’t want that.
Hopefully CLC doesn’t pay a high cost of buying out SGM.
July 20th, 2012 at 11:09 pm
I wonder if SGM should also kick-in something for the loss of shared employees and health insurance and the loss of rent to PC host families (who sacrificially renovated their homes) as well as the loss of hundreds of members, their services and tithes? Wow, this split is costing the pastors and members of CLC a royal sum.
Hmm…I don’t think CLC should let them off easy on this one…
July 21st, 2012 at 5:57 am
Kris, I am, and have been disgusted by SGM for a long time. The members disregard everything in order to remain loyal and faithful to a man who is a geniune trickster….even disbelieving Brent D who was one of them from the beginning. The same standards used to judge others is not applied to the ‘Boss’.
How can the members continue to keep their heads in the sand? How can the RBD’s continue to overlook all of the internet accusations and discussions?
I guess some are weak in the Faith and others just don’t care. We all know that religion is a big business. I suppose others feel that is where God called them so they overlook lots of things! They will stick by their man through thick and thin.
I am just so pleased that we got out of there years ago!
Thank You Jesus.
July 21st, 2012 at 7:27 am
650,000 dollars???? for travel in one year???? wow sounds like first class all the time. Straight up ballers and shot callers.
July 21st, 2012 at 7:45 am
Hi Kris -- post #29. Thx. :)
July 21st, 2012 at 8:18 am
Does anyone know the exact figure for SGM’s “Get out of Jail” AOR report?
July 21st, 2012 at 9:00 am
Brent said $400,000, but I don’t know where he got that or if that is the total cost (including travel and SGM admin time, etc.) or just the check to AoR.
When I first heard about the AoR commission, I objected to my former SGM pastor that I could not see that process costing less than half a million dollars and many months of friction when the fees, travel, portion of salaries, and total expenses were all added up. I told him that someone truly repentant and more concerned for the casue of Christ than for his own honor and hold on his position would step down voluntarily. Many others have resigned for less.
We gave sacrificially for many years. I hate to think we trusted those resources to men who treated God’s gifts like an expense account.
July 21st, 2012 at 9:02 am
One thing I remember with Charles Schmidt and all that happened with him is that he and his wife at least took a year off to evaluate their life and ministry. Compare that year off to C.J. Mahaney though supposedly stepping down for evaluation didn’t really take any time off. During the period Mahaney wasn’t the leader of SGM, Mahaney was still speaking both at SGM Churches and non SGM Churches. It is sad that C.J. Mahaney apparently didn’t take any real time for introspection etc.
July 21st, 2012 at 9:23 am
As the author of the allegedly offensive comment in #29:
…perhaps I do need to clarify that I do NOT really and truly think Kerrin should have been a pedophile, not that anybody, ever, should be a pedophile….
However, when it comes to the support the SGM church staff has given pedophiles who wanted to live at home and have some level of ongoing contact with their daughters (of course while continuing to attend their SGM church, tithe, and profess repentance and submission to their leaders)…..
How does that compare to Kerrin wanting to talk to his own children ( Kauflin’s grandkids)-in light of numerous posts on his ex wife’s blog about what a wonderful father ( and for that matter, husband) he was- and getting no support at all for phone contact with his kids? (Assuming Kerrin is telling the truth and I have no reason to doubt it).
Who is getting more support as a father? Kerrin or a pedophile? If you find my remark offensive, I think you should take your moral outrage to where it truly belongs- SGM. Just my opinion, I could be wrong, Kris can decide.
July 21st, 2012 at 10:43 am
Rorschach -
Thanks for clarifying. Because I read 5years’ comment with the tone of sarcasm that I think was intended, I didn’t see it as offensive. It is true that in the past, some SGM leaders in some situations at different SGM locations have appeared to extend more grace to pedophiles than to their victims -- or to those, like Kerrin, who get vocal about their questions and objections to SGM.
I believe that that was what 5years was alluding to.
In SGMville, it has been true that loyalty to SGM and continued submission and expressions of one’s belief in one’s own “worst sinner” status trump everything, even the most despicable behavior. There were child molesters who received more grace, love, and support from their SGM pastors than what has been shown to those who cease their unquestioning submission to their SGM pastors.
I mused on this idea in much more detail here: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2011/09/02/why-sovereign-grace-ministries-doesnt-like-victims/
July 21st, 2012 at 11:39 am
Kris,
I think what is equally despicable is that child molesters were shown more grace, love, and support from their pastors than the actual victims, who were all children. At least in the three, still unresolved/unreconcilied cases out of SGM/Fairfax.
July 21st, 2012 at 2:56 pm
I was wondering if anyone out there can easily locate the remarks from SGM leader(s) (Dave Harvey?) when they talked about how the move to Louisville had been in the works for a long while, prior to the exposure of CJ’s issues. If so, please email the links (a copy ‘n’ paste of the remarks would be very helpful, too) to me at kris@sgmsurvivors.com.
July 21st, 2012 at 3:39 pm
Sent something.
July 21st, 2012 at 4:06 pm
Happymom 150
This behavior in child abuse cases by SGM pastors is made all the more wicked when they tried to suppress the truth to preserve their church’s reputation and avoid law suits.
July 21st, 2012 at 4:38 pm
5 YearsinPDI said:
With cases reported here on this it is sad that there has been shown to be a whole lot of truth to that statement.
Happy Mom’s case is one where SGM Fairfax Leadership seemed to side with a teenage boy that molested a 3 year old girl.
Lets not forget about how ExCLCers Mom and her family were treated by Gary Ricucci and John Loftness when it was discovered that her husband molested on of ExCLCers Mom’s children. ExCLCers mom reported that these two leaders cut off basically any support CLC could have given this family. Sadly one of the children was placed in county foster care rather than these men getting a family at CLC taking in this child temporarily.
There was one other case posted that happened in CLC where the leaders in CLC seemed to protecting the father who molested their daughter and CLC Leadershp thinking it best to keep the family together.
It is sad that there could be any truth to the above statement but there is.
July 21st, 2012 at 4:42 pm
Kris
You can find SGM commenting on the move here:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Sovereign-Grace-Ministries-Relocation-Announcement.aspx
This is part of what they said (I bolded certain parts):
July 21st, 2012 at 5:10 pm
I thought this was a good article, on the four general characteristics of abusers:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/18/profile-of-an-abuser/
July 21st, 2012 at 7:37 pm
Steve240,
Just to clarify, our story did not involve a three year old. That was Noel’s Story. Although the Fairfax pastors did counsel, care for and protect the perp in our story who molested our child when that child was 8.
I believe all three abuse stories out of Fairfax are in Kris’ excellent analysis that she linked to her comment, #149.
July 21st, 2012 at 7:44 pm
Happymom
Thanks for the clarification. I still remember reading Noel’s story and be shocked by it. How old was the perpetrator in your story?
5 YearsinPDI
The link you gave with the 4 traits of an abuser sure sounds like C.J. Mahaney. Interesting he is on the gospel coalition council (that put out that web link) when he exhibits those traits.
July 22nd, 2012 at 12:25 am
While the time that I was hospitalized in Intensive Care only one of my children was placed in the State’s care (by John Loftness), there eventually came a time where eight of my children went into foster care, during which I was homeless. This was about a period of a year and a half. I got them back, pulling myself up from the depths of despair by the Grace of God, and the help and encouragement of many secular people, including people I met through the courts and DSS. Some were confessing Christians, but almost none of whom I knew from a church, and absolutely no one at all from CLC. John Loftness, and others at CLC were actually rallying in the courts on behalf of the pedophile ex-husband, trying for him to get custody of my children. It was DSS who walked me through the court process, to actually get child support taken from his check though the courts. Without a HS Diploma, and having been a homemaker for so many years, I was unable to earn enough money to even afford to pay for daycare-all the power had been in the hands of my ex, and the pastors at CLC. I grew a lot from those hard times, but, most unfortunately, they were devastating to my children. Please continue to pray for healing for them.
July 22nd, 2012 at 1:03 am
ExClcer’s Mom 159
I wonder why John or Gary didn’t offer to take you in or at least find a place for you all to live, to protect you from homelessness? I feel sure that someone in the church would have helped you if they had been told about your situation.
CLC has had a single moms ministry for years and many families took in moms with children. One family actually provided a home to about 20 moms over the years.
It almost seems like John and Gary were punishing you by their behavior.
July 22nd, 2012 at 1:03 am
I understand the sarcasm in the post and the tragic backstories that it is referring to. But imo that kind of rhetoric is exceedingly crass even to make a point in a facetious manner.
It’s appalling.
I’ve worked with investigators and analysts who have had to go through material that involve these kind of abominable acts. Ask an analyst from the NCMEC about how they need to study (over and over again) videos and pics extensively so as to positively ID the perps and those crying screaming kids in the material by facial, bodily, and voice recognition. And hopefully rescue said kids. A lot are never found. A lot are found dead. Those who endure suffer greatly psychologically and statistically are doomed to be (at best) sociopaths.
It’s a disgusting thing and best not used to make a point in such a manner as it was. It’s not like you’d ever say that in front of a victim? Would you then say it publically for all to hear? Read? Really?
I’m not defending sgm in the least, either.
July 22nd, 2012 at 1:20 am
Persona, I was part of that “single Mom’s ministry” for a time. John Loftness and Gary Riccucci said to me that my poverty was “self induced”, because I would not ask the judge to keep the pedophile out of jail so he could ‘support his family’. I told them that I believe a man should stand in court for his crimes alone, and should not be able to ‘get off of a crime’ because he had 9 children! I accepted my poverty as a price to be paid, with honor, to show my daughters it is better to live with nothing than to be treated with disrespect and violated in such a manner. Even some very kind people donated money to CLC, to prevent my house from going to foreclosure at one point. It was a manipulation of the system, an attempt to get custody to him, that caused my homelessness. Once CPS realized the truth in this, they helped me get housing on my own, through HOC. God sent other people who I remember all my life, who not only helped me, but also encouraged me that I was worthy to be a Mother to my children, and to help assist me to achieve that. It was a long, dark period of my life-I think of it as “The Dark Years”. Once my housing became stable through Inter-Faith housing Coalition, I was able to begin more of a healing process..It has been many years, but each year, there is progress.
July 22nd, 2012 at 1:42 am
Whew. The manipulative behavior of those pastors still takes my breath away. The details of suffering your family experienced still shocks me.
Unfortunately, your case is just one of many that those two conspired to control the outcome. Sad to say, the outcome very often hurt people. They had decades of experience by the time the Lord separated them a few years back. Thankfully, they no longer work closely together.
July 22nd, 2012 at 2:05 am
I have seriously learned now how time can seem indefinite, and my motto is “As long as there is breath, there is hope”…I look for ‘long term’, not immediate..otherwise, I would quickly become discouraged. Scripture is True..God is not mocked..And, His plans for us are good, not evil…Hope continues…It has been many a long year, but I can still say, “God is Good”. Do I ever regret following Him> NEVER! Do I regret ‘following men”? Yes. But, God is still Gracious, to see me through even those horrendous and stupid mistakes…it’s not over yet…”we win” in the end.. :Approve:
July 22nd, 2012 at 5:36 am
ExClcer’s Mom, You are a true heroine of the Faith.
Read Hebrews 11.
You have pleased God mightily by your Faith.
And not only you, but many others here who have been abused and hurt by PDI, SGM and instead of cursing God they have turned to the Lord in their sorrow and despair.
Yes, we are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession.
Why?
Because we believed GOD over man.
July 22nd, 2012 at 7:25 am
I am sure that there would have been sufficient people and resources within CLC to help ExCLCer’s Mom had John Loftness and Gary Ricucci allowed or appealed for help for the family. How sad to hear how a church that supposedly did this and took care of their own would not support this family in need. It is sad the excuse that ExCLCer’s Mom is indicating they used for not supporting her.
July 22nd, 2012 at 7:34 am
I’ve been thinking so much about ExCLCer and her Mom’s situations as I’ve been reading Wartburg Watch’s coverage of the Vision Forum’s treatment of a serial pedophile --and how Doug Wilson not only supported the pedophile, but also arranged his marriage to a 22-year-old woman who asked for his help finding an appropriate husband. Read the post from 7/18/12 and the comments that follow.
How Gary and John treated EVERYONE involved demonstrated so little understanding of the enormity/gravity of the situation.
One friend from CLC (who has sided with Gary and CJ et al in this split) knew the family and said the problem in the DA case (and my own) is the pastors kept applying rules/procedures for normal situations to decidedly abnormal ones. She also said that last July’s meeting was too embarrassing for the two daughters born to DA’s second marriage (also endorsed by and presided over by the pastors).
I argue that truth and protection FAR outweigh embarrassment.
July 22nd, 2012 at 7:35 am
Oops! Here’s the link
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/18/the-real-doug-wilson-encouraged-presided-over-the-marriage-of-serial-pedophile/
July 22nd, 2012 at 8:04 am
Over $600,000? Just for travel? Just for one year? In an economy that’s the worst of our lifetime? I’m certain that hundreds of people in SGM churches were unemployed during that year. I wonder how many people lost their homes during that year. And the SGM dudes get to jet set all over spending over a half a million bucks?
And there are churches that still associate with them? And there are people foolish enough to still give their money to churches that support the corrupt SGM?
Really?
I haven’t followed much of SGM and CLC in recent months mainly because we moved across country. But, really. I’m shocked CLC has narrowed their decision to stay or go down to polity. And I’m shocked that so many people whose eyes the Lord opened last year are ok with that. Shocked
Sidney
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:44 am
acme said,
That’s really an excellent synopsis of many of the situations in which SGM leaders did the wrong thing.
I was thinking about this, and it occurs to me that it even somewhat tangentially connects back to my original post, and how the AoR report made me feel. Really, I think the AoR report smacked of blind legalism. The AoR guys were so obsessed with the letter of the law -- that Christians must always guard what they say and how they say it so as not to sound bitter -- that they let that standard blind them. In their legalistic thinking, if someone sounds bitter, then that bitterness (or perceived bitterness) negates any truth the person might be speaking.
Likewise these situations where the SGM folks dropped the ball. They had their rules, their formulas. If a person displayed the proper level of (what they believed to be) repentance and humility and willingness to submit to pastoral and church authority, that person was likely to be in the right. On the other hand, if a person -- a victim -- continued to press for justice and continued to speak of his victimization, he was bitter, so he was sinning -- and thereby could not be right.
They took these wooden ideas and applied them in every situation, including situations where the (perceived) bitterness was the result of a heinous crime (sexual abuse), and where the (perceived) repentance was being displayed by pedophiles. No doubt the SGM pedophiles probably were sorry. They probably were the “worst sinners they knew” at that moment, so their displays of sorrow and grief were real. Unfortunately, that clouded the judgment and common sense of the SGM pastors who were trying to rule over these situations, situations that they were not equipped to handle because they’d come up in a system that scorned anything to do with secular psychology.
And yes, while it’s still true that sin is sin, and in God’s eyes, bitterness is sin like child abuse is sin, it’s also a sad fact that there are certain types of sin, certain patterns of behavior, that the much-disdained secular psychological research has shown need lots of very specialized help. In their arrogant confidence that the local church is all anyone should ever need, SGM pastors went way outside their area of expertise and tried to adjudicate situations they had no business presiding over.
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:49 am
Acme, I totally agree! I feel empathy for DA’s two youngest daughters. I don’t know them, but according to the topic of DA discussed here, they have done nothing wrong, and nothing to be ashamed of! I can remember a time when one of my daughters, who was in class with Gary Riccucci’s oldest daughter, spoke to her (Kelly, I think her name was) about how DA had ‘touched her sister in her private parts”. Gary called me that night, and strongly encouraged me that I should tell my child NOT to talk about it (She was around 6 or 7 at that time, I believe). I refused! I told Gary that if I were to hush my daughter, she would ‘feel’ there was a reason to be ashamed, and she had no reason to be ashamed! She did nothing wrong, and, in fact, I encouraged him that HE should have a talk with his own daughter about ‘good touch/bad touch’, to help her protect herself against such depraved actions that happen to children! (Yet again, another time I was ‘so un-submissive’).
What do DA’s two daughters have to be embarrassed of? What truly causes their embarrassment is the actions of DA, and those around him-not their own actions. The cause of embarrassment is not the Truth, but years of hiding the Truth, and living a ‘facade’. People should never be comfortable living outside of the Truth! Why should anyone be embarrassed of another person’s sin?
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:51 am
Sidney
$653K anuually for travel is what I see in their report for 2011 andis quite a high figure. That is over $54K a month. That is a lot to be spending. How many employees does SGM have that would typically travel?
I have never heard this question answered: Is Mahaney and others allowed to be reimbursed for travel expenses when he goes and speaks at conferences outside of SGM? Is that part of what this $653K represents? Why should they be reimbursed for travel when they are typically being paid a speaker’s fee?
My understanding is that Mahaney and others are allowed to be reimbursed for travel when they travel to speak at various SGM Churches even though these churches are giving Mahaney an others “honorariums” for speaking. That certainly baffles me that that he gets both. Why an honorarium. Shouldn’t the money that SGM members “tithe” to SGM cover these SGM speaker’s fee etc?
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:59 am
Kris, you said that well!
OldTimer (post165), thank you, for your encouragement.
Yet I feel I have received what I have been promised: He promised He would never leave me. To me, it is elementary-Man fails, God does not..Man lies, God does not..It doesn’t even make sense to put faith in man over God! I have been failed by enough of mankind to know better, and God has never failed me ever!
July 22nd, 2012 at 11:23 am
Just another thought; If we believe that Jesus died for our sins (and I know I do believe so), then why would we feel so compelled to ‘hide’ our previous sin, because it is just another testimony to the Power of Jesus and His Salvation he offers to us, isn’t it?
July 22nd, 2012 at 11:26 am
Steve240 -
It’s not a lot of money if you are running a business. It seems excessive for a parachurch organization with “some” employees.
But — if people/pastors are supposed to trust their leaders, then no one can ask about how the money is used. One or two people at the top are all that need to know and everyone else is a BAD Christian and divisive if they ask a question.
July 22nd, 2012 at 12:30 pm
rorschach….I do not wish to offend you or anybody else. You are a good person and I appreciate your posts. The bible says to avoid foolish and coarse jesting, and in retrospect, for me to make a crack that somebody would have been better off by being a pedophile (ie, to have pastoral support for contact with his children) was a coarse jest, even if true. I apologize to you and Kerrin and anybody else who was offended by my unclean sarcasm and I won’t do it again.
I don’t have your expertise and experience, but I know of many girls who were molested and the deep problems they face ( cutting, suicide, serious depression, rebellion). I have to push back my anger and focus on a just and good God who will make it right in the end, every time it comes up on this blog. The SGM pastors inferring to a 10 year old victim that perhaps she liked the attention, or she would have said something sooner, still makes my blood boil. The lack of deep open apology from SGM (with the exception of Greg Sommerville’s letter posted here, may the Lord bless him)is enough to disqualify all of them from any ministry if you ask me. But none of that excuses my crass remark and I accept your rebuke and will try to be more careful.
July 22nd, 2012 at 3:11 pm
ExClcer’sMom
I really think that CLC should give you and your children involved some type of apology for how they handled this and what they went through. Even if Gary Ricucci and John Loftness aren’t willing to do this (as you indicated they were the ones who handled it). One would think that some type of public confession and repentance would promote a lot of healing.
Sadly, so far, even CLC rarely admits that they have made mistakes in the past.
It is sad what DA’s children (from his new wife) went through but at some point in time they need to know the sad truth about their father’s history. I am not sure what ages these children are but is a sad family history.
July 22nd, 2012 at 3:33 pm
5 yrs. I appreciate your kindness toward Greg S., but how can one man apologize for what other men did?
As far as I know, GS was not involved in any of the posted sex abuse cases. It appears to me that perhaps the GS post was damage control, rather than an actual apology for any wrongs committed by CLC pastors.
As I remember, during the CLC Family Meeting last Aug., both GS and Josh Harris reiterated that their blogpost did NOT admit any actual wrongs were done by the pastors involved.
July 22nd, 2012 at 4:15 pm
Acme,
The post my blogging partner Dee wrote was a real eye-opener.
Just to clarify, Doug Wilson isn’t connected with Vision Forum, which was established by Doug Phillips. I used to get the two Doug’s confused, too.
Blessings!
July 22nd, 2012 at 4:18 pm
I agree,Steve240. While I need nothing from them (CLC,SGM, or any of the pastors there), I do agree that they should have responded to ExClcer’s letters for the past 20 years. If someone is so compelled to write, year after year, that would be a pretty good indication that a response should be given, and an offense had been committed. For years, I had ‘moved on’..What compels me now is the knowledge that they (SGM) cover this stuff up, and how young children are at such risk there. Because I am aware with certainty of this, I feel I must continue to speak out now. If I had witnessed real change, I would feel differently. DA’s new children are young women now-close to 18, if not already 18 years old. They should be mature enough to handle the knowledge of the father’s past, and hopefully, it is the past..When something is kept in secret, one never knows if it is in fact ‘history’, or actually ‘not yet revealed present’, do they? Except, God Himself knows, and one would think that people who profess to believe in God would tremble at the knowledge that He does know their hearts. Baffling to me, really, yet I do not stand to judge that myself..I just want to know that parents REALLY ARE made to be aware of pedophiles (whether ‘past or present’) who are in their midst where innocent children may be unattended. I have heard them speak that such things are being done, but I know that in reality those precautions have not been in place. I think that is a most burning issue to me.
July 22nd, 2012 at 5:15 pm
When I read again about these abuse cases, I feel shock horror, sorrow, and anger alternately — sorrow for the original victims and their families, and anger at the perpetrators and at the church leaders who revictimized by responses that can only be described as spiritual abuse.
SGM and/or some individual churches should bring in G.R.A.C.E., an independent organization whose name is an acronym for Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment. http://netgrace.org/
They can investigate abuse cases and see how the organization handled them and what flaws there were/are in the system, and they can advise and train in correcting those and putting proper safeguards in place.
They have done remarkable work with New Tribes Mission and are interviewing and investigating now with a Baptist Mission group, among many others.
Predictably, neither of those organizations sought the help of G.R.A.C.E until blogs went online exposing the abuse and calling for justice.
In one case, the perpetrator was an individual who was let go by the mission but not reported to authorities. The mission minimized, mishandled, and hushed up his molestation of a 12-14 yr. old girl, even making her write and sign a ‘confession.’ Things finally blew up online after a group of former missionary kids got together and wondered why their mission station, out of all the other ‘normal’ mission stations, had so many messed up, hurting, damaged lives. Turns out this doctor had molested many, many, young girls for over 20 years before they found out, and he had gone on to practice family medicine after the mission fired him.
In another organization, though G.R.A.C.E. singled out individuals who were particularly harsh and abusive, they laid the primary blame on the organization itself, saying they had “created and fostered a legalistic culture that made harshness and abuse not only predictable, but expected.”
July 22nd, 2012 at 5:22 pm
Thanks for the correction, Wanda. I also call my kids by the wrong names from time to time — which is even more hysterical (or disturbing) if you’ve seen them.
July 22nd, 2012 at 5:56 pm
ExClcer’sMom
So much for John Loftness or Gary Ricucci leaving their offering at the alter and reconciling first as Jesus in His sermon on the Mount commanded us to do.
It always baffles me that leaders in SGM and sometimes CLC have such a hard time admitting that they were wrong or handled something poorly.
Psychologists and other experts will say that most pedophiles really don’t cure or change. Thus if someone did this to your daughter then the odds are they are at least tempted to do this to another child. Thus people do need to be aware and controls in place or the chances will be high that the pedophile will repeat what they did previously.
Sadly C.J. Mahaney for so long critized any type of psychology perhaps including this prognosis of pedophiles that leaders didn’t really believe that DA was a threat to other children.
July 22nd, 2012 at 6:35 pm
As I explained “good touch/bad touch” to my children, and told them what their dad had done, I answered their questions about hi saying how he may repent, and that is between himself and God, but that they could still love him,spend time with him, and learn things from him, but that I would not have him live in my house again, and did not want to leave them alone with him, and that when they grew up and had children, they should never leave their children alone with him. I still believe that to be the best way to handle a pedophile. I resist the temptation to call any of God’s creation worthless (just because I see no good purpose for them does not mean one doesn’t exist), but the point is to protect innocent children.
It is ironic how GR and JL and others struggle so with admitting wrong, when they all used to teach how “Godly” it was for a man to admit when he is wrong..That is actually one of the good things I did learn during the years at that organization!
July 22nd, 2012 at 7:58 pm
Muckracker-
This was the original GS post.
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2011/08/11/a-message-to-sgm-survivors-from-greg-somerville-and-covenant-life-church-pastors/
I was not aware that:
“during the CLC Family Meeting last Aug., both GS and Josh Harris reiterated that their blogpost did NOT admit any actual wrongs were done by the pastors involved.”
If that is true, then I misunderstood this letter and you are correct that “perhaps the GS post was damage control, rather than an actual apology for any wrongs committed by CLC pastors.”
However, at the time, I thought it was a very big deal for Greg to 1) acknowledge the blogs at all, especially to send a letter to one and 2)invite critical feedback.
The wonders of search engines. Here is an old post of yours muckraker:
So, Greg sent that letter to Kris before he showed the final draft to Ricucci and Loftness, and they had hurt feelings ( sniff), and got an apology (another sniff)). I guess I am foggy brained but I ended up thinking Greg did the right thing and the only thanks he got at CLC was criticism. I don’t know his motives, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point. But if even Greg won’t admit any wrongs were done, wow, awful. That was a year ago though, and even the AOR report briefly admitted things were not handled right, so maybe a year later and out of CJs mesmerizing dominion they see some light now? I don’t know, no public apologies yet…..
July 22nd, 2012 at 8:49 pm
5 yrs. I went back and re-listened/transcribed this part (I’m not a professional transcriber, but here’s my best stab at it)
JH at that meeting speaking:
“…we want to examine anything that we’ve done as a church and we want to do anything we can to reach out to them [Exclcer/Sgmnot and families] and to pursue reconciliation--and so the heart behind doing this, was to make a statement that we want to care for people. Um. It was not to isolate particular men and say that they had done something wrong or had failed as pastors, but that we as a church want to care for people who are hurting, we want to examine ourselves, ah, we want to reach out to them, we want to reach out to them with the love of Christ, and if that involves identifying any, any things, that we’ve done wrong, we want to do that…”
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:17 pm
Muckraker
Thanks for posting a clarifification on this.
If Josh Harris really said this and atleast ExCLCers Mom hasn’t reported any outreach by CLC, what are they waiting for? Was Josh Harris really sincered when he said this or was this just something he said to try and appease people’s outrage? Was Josh serious about “examining ourselves?”
Sadly the aciton or lack thereof speaks for itself.
I can understand Josh Harris wanting to make sure he hears both sides of a situation before saying it was handled wrong especially for him to (gasp) say even a former CLC pastor handled something wrong but shouldn’t there be outreach and listening to both sides? If you read ExCLCers mom account of this and her daughter’s account this was quite serious how they mishandled this.
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:32 pm
It was, indeed, quite serious how they mishandled the situation with my family, with devastating results to my children, that some are dealing with still to this very day. Yet, what I think is most serious of all is that the secrecy of child abuse and the abusers has continued, and DA has been allowed to take young girls on camping trips, without their parents’ knowledge of his past! This happened just last summer! While it was not a directly sponsored ‘church event’, it was only people within the church..I was truly sickened that this took place, and still question what else has taken place that I am not aware of, as I was not investigating anything when this came to my attention. I do not even know if anyone is demanding proof of any ‘protective barriers’ from them.
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:39 pm
Thanks Muckraker-
This is my personal opinion and speculative, but I would guess they are getting legal counsel to say nothing. Awards in similar cases (sex abuse cover ups- LDS, JWs, Boy Scouts) run over a million per victim.
July 22nd, 2012 at 10:45 pm
Steve240
You can listen to Josh’s message from CLC today and see if you find any answers. He seems to lay the onus at the feet of the offended. He also seems to have a few choice words for ‘angry’ bloggers, too.
I guess I’m a glutton for punishment. This week I also listened to the recent sermon CJ gave at Kevin De Young’s church.
Toward the end, he began yelling louder than I have ever heard him yell. It actually hurt my ears before I managed to turn him down. During his teaching, he managed to include chastisement for pharisees, comments of being the worst sinner he knows and of course, he included several ‘categories’ of sin…the old CJ is back in full battle array.
July 22nd, 2012 at 11:41 pm
Persona
That might be interesting hear (Josh’s message he gave today). Interesting the passage it is suppose to be on: Matthew 5:21-26. This includes the section about leaving your offering at the alter if your brother is brother is holding something against you.
C.J yelling and going form quiet to loud etc? No way. Not C.J. ;-) That must have been something to hear. Sure you didn’t need a barf bag to get through Mahaney’s message?
July 23rd, 2012 at 12:32 am
In regards to travel money, the company I am a part of currently has around 500 employees in six states. There is A LOT of travel involved for about a dozen people, we do not get close to SGM’s number, even though our gross revenues & assets are considerably more than SGM’s.
So we could look at it this way…326 $2000 trips, or 200 $3,265 trips. Trying to be fair, lets look at the most expensive city to travel to NYC. Lets be all inclusive, car rental, per diem, hotel, airfare, tolls and miscellanea. The Global Business Travel Association says that’s $536.79 per day for the big apple.
All other US destinations are less.
So SGM spent enough to send someone to the big apple for 608 overnight trips. The reality is that SGM spent $1,789 per day for travel in one calendar year. Short of Dubai or perhaps Monaco, I would be hard pressed to spend that much unless there were significant entertainment expenses involved. That is ALOT of money for a ministry of 20-30 people to spend.
There should be more transparency as it is hard for me to imagine the 20-30 employees traveled 200 times in one calendar year at a cost of $3,265 per trip.
July 23rd, 2012 at 6:22 am
5yrs,
Thanks for your candidness sir (or ma’am?). It’s all water under the bridge. I also appreciate the acute thoughts and observations you bring to these forums. And I agree that the outrage is more rightly directed towards the mal-handling of these cases in sgm. Words are of no consequence here compared to that -- sorry that my words were so stern. At least after this Exchange we can shake and.enjoy the freedom of fellowship in Christ together!
July 23rd, 2012 at 7:39 am
I listened to the first couple minutes of CJ’s message yesterday at Knoxville, entitled “The Surprising Punchline”. I was more or less curious how he was introduced there (in light of the lengthy introduction Bill K. gave last October over why CJ could speak in light of the charges). There was no intro by any CCK pastor, so I wanted to see the basis for his message. Luke 18…he is speaking on the pharisee and the tax collector. I had no time for it last night, but I plan on listening to see how he preaches this.
July 23rd, 2012 at 8:20 am
Muckraker -- #178:
“It appears to me that perhaps the GS post was damage control, rather than an actual apology for any wrongs committed by CLC pastors.”
Which is the only response we have seen regarding the child sex abuse cases out of Fairfax and CLC. None of the families affected by child sex abuse in CLC or Fairfax have experienced genuine sorrow or repentance. It’s been spin and damage control. I’ve not read one story on here where there has been genuine, fruit bearing repentance for the horrible mishandling of child sex abuse cases out of CLC or Fairfax. Not one. If the world can vote to have Peterno’s statue removed, how can the “church” remain silent about this and not be bothered by it??
July 23rd, 2012 at 9:14 am
Cora Susie said:
C.J. Mahaney giving the message he gave previously on Pharisee and tax collector. It is sad that Mahaney is clueless and has no idea he is like the Pharisees were. It is just unreal after all that has been revealed about Mahaney that he could talk about Pharisees.
July 23rd, 2012 at 9:48 am
I heard there was a family meeting at the SGM church in Chesapeake last night where an ex-SGM pastor asked the church for forgiveness for some sins in the past. Anyone know what happened?
July 23rd, 2012 at 10:32 am
Thank you rorschach.
I am a ma’am…unless you want to believe I am one of these….
July 23rd, 2012 at 10:48 am
Uriah,
Gee, what a shame it wasn’t Keith Brault.
July 23rd, 2012 at 7:14 pm
And so it appears the split is coming. How many lives and relationships have been destoyed over one man’s pride and arrogance.
July 23rd, 2012 at 8:16 pm
I am a former member of SGM in Chesapeake. I am curious to know who spoke and confessed what at this family meeting.
July 23rd, 2012 at 9:22 pm
Too many Mr Stretch…too many…So sad
July 23rd, 2012 at 10:05 pm
I did listen to Josh Harris’s past sunday message and really didn’t hear anything significant I would question. Harris didn’t specifically mention angry people on blogs posting. Harris did say that people could post anonymously online but referred more to sports dialogue etc.
Even though Josh didn’t directly say this if you applied what he taught Josh would be indicating that in the situation of ExCLCer’s mom and her family Gary Riccuci and John Loftness should be reaching out their family. Gary and John should be leaving their gift “on the alter.”
Sadly I wouldn’t hold your breath for either Gary or John to works towards any reconciliation.
July 23rd, 2012 at 10:23 pm
Mr Stretch,
Your words are worth repeating:
“And so it appears the split is coming. How many lives and relationships have been destoyed over one man’s pride and arrogance.”
July 23rd, 2012 at 10:27 pm
Kris-
Every once in a while I come on and read what you have to say so I wanted to encourage you to keep going. This perspective is from an outsider.
I don’t know what I am today. I tell others I am agnostic. There are many theological issues that remain barriers for me at this time in my life. The biggest has been the problem of evil. In another life, before my faith fell apart I used to be a die hard evangelical, who firmly embraced reform theology. I was into John Piper, and other reformed theology which was pushed in Campus Crusade for Christ.
Thinking I was following God’s will I took a job and moved from Wisconsin to Washington, D.C. Then a number of things in life happened, I hit a brick wall and experienced burn out at 34. When the church turned and responded to some of my doubt with skepticism and hostility I reached a tipping point. A good portion of my Christian material ended up in the garbage of my apartment complex and in the dumpster behind a Safeway in the northern Virginia suburbs.
I looked into atheist organizations, and even went to the Reason Rally. I actually became dismayed that these organizations still are faith based in their own way. However they are in denial.
So why do I write all this….
One of the guys who I talk to abot theology attends a SGM church. He’s involved in church plants. He tried to talk me into going, and tried to pressure me a few times into going. I said no..becuase I was burned out. However, I decided to research online and came across your blog and others. I was horrified by what I read. From my perspective SGM actually validates atheism. It makes it much healthy than SGM. Reading about SGM helped me understand my friend, and learn more about the culture.
While I don’t know what I believe about God, I will say that SGM is a cancer to Christianity, as there are healthier churches out there. But blogs like this help act as red flags to those who might consider attending. This blog is a warning to SGM, just as exmormon.org is a warning about Mormonism.
But regular postings and discussions I think are helpful. When I was in Christianity I wish folks like you who questioned, doubted, etc.. were involved.
July 23rd, 2012 at 11:16 pm
Eagle,
Thanks for the encouragement.
I have to say, though, that on several levels, I don’t really like comments like yours.
For one thing, when someone comes around to a site run by Christians and makes a statement like, “I am an atheist,” several interesting things tend to happen. Because Christians are supposed to be all about love and acceptance, and because we’re also supposed to be concerned about the lost atheist souls out there, a bunch of us will find ourselves compelled to respond to you much more cordially (and with as much seeming open-mindedness as we can drum up) than we would respond to other professing Christians.
The second thing that will happen is that inevitably, at least one or two of us will take the bait and try to argue with you about the problem of evil, or another of the atheist’s intellectual conundrums. Some of us will try to (like the Mormons) “bear our testimony.” Some will quote Scripture to you.
Then -- thirdly -- the conversation will end up being all about why it’s illogical to continue to believe in God and the Bible, particularly after all the bad stuff that has happened in God’s name, at SGM and/or other organizations. The declared atheist will be able to show off all his logic and all his debate skills. The good-hearted Christians, so desperate to “witness” to the declared atheist, will be hamstrung in what they want to say, which is that if you reject the good news of Jesus after having heard and once believed it, that’s kind of, um, your problem. Yes, we’d love to “love you back in.” Yes, we’d love to be the instruments that the Holy Spirit chooses to use to bring you back to a place where you once again believe. But in a peculiar way, if you really know the gospel and have chosen to reject it anyway, that’s not our problem. That’s your problem.
Meanwhile, the people out there who hate sites like this -- the SGM defenders in particular -- will be handed new ammunition for their argument that those who object to SGM are evil. “Look,” they will say. “That poor guy became even more cemented in his atheism, because he was discouraged from going to an SGM church plant with his theologically debating buddy. What a shame -- he could have heard the real and true SGM gospel if only he hadn’t been turned off by those nasty SGM survivors!”
In the end, although you say words of encouragement and pat us on the back for our (perceived) skepticism and negativity, this conversation will devolve into a platform to promote doubt and disbelief…and will end up having the opposite effect, making people who want to shut down the SGM debate feel like they have gained a point for their side.
Sigh.
Eagle, my heart goes out to you for the wretched hopelessness that you have to feel, having rejected the Lord Jesus and His truth after knowing them. I’m sorry for whatever caused that to happen. I would love to see you come back around and not declare yourself an atheist any more.
But I’m not going to take the bait, not going to discuss your lack of belief in God. If you’re truly happy that this conversation is still happening, and if you’d truly want it to continue, then just admit the truth, that you have rejected God not because of the bad behavior of any particular church, but because you…just…don’t want to believe any longer.
:-(
July 24th, 2012 at 12:37 am
For anyone interested, the July Newsletter at SymboulosMinistries.org has been posted.
July 24th, 2012 at 12:40 am
Hmm…Kris and Eagle: You both have valid and reasonable statements but I think there might be something missing-in-translation, or some sort of miscommunication.
It reads to me as if Eagle, for whatever reason, is having a crisis of faith and in the midst of this crisis has discovered SGM through an acquaintance. Sounds like Eagle is mentally trying to balance things out with their beliefs, pros and cons, pluses and minuses, Truth and falsehood. What he/she has learned seems to fit on the ‘con’ side of things, as Eagle directly said “I don’t know what I am today. I tell others I am agnostic…SGM is a cancer to Christianity, as there are healthier churches out there”.
Regardless of her/his personal beliefs, the observation (I hate that word) that SGM perpetuates an unhealthy subsystem of Christianity, or “brand” if you will, is unfortunately true. I and many others have lived through the practice, implications and expectations of the brand, and I do see it as ‘a gospel’ that drives away those who would be receptive to The Gospel. Or, because “a gospel” is presented as The Gospel, those who don’t accept the lower-case one assume that the capitalised one is just the same or similar… and thus avoid everything to do with The Gospel. I think that may be what Eagle was getting at when they said “…validates atheism.”
Kris, I understand your concerns with the blog-- supposed to be about SGM — turning into a forum for theological debate. It isn’t the place; there’s a whole world of debate forums out there on the web. And yes, of course those in pro-SGM court will say A-HA! As if the Survivors site contributed to a person’s doubt/disbelief. I just really don’t see that kind of confrontational, let’s-argue-about-the-problem-of-evil type of stance in Eagle’s post. His/her last sentence about wishing that others who questioned/doubted were around “When I was in Christianity” may just reflect that Eagle wishes they had someone to voice their doubts and concerns to, when they first started doubting and before their faith “fell apart”.
Back on topic..Thanks for all you do running this site. The AOR “report” was, unfortunately, pretty much as expected. Sad. On to Louisville…
July 24th, 2012 at 12:58 am
I understand both Kris and Eagle. All I can say about one who has been ‘a christian’, and then claims to be agnostic, is that it seems you practiced religion, but not a relationship. Once you “know” someone, no one can convince you they do not exist! There are many things I can say I do not knwo, and that I do not understand..and many things I will say I do not even care to understand, but I DO KNOW this for sure: Jesus is my Savior, and He is my Strength! Without Him, it would have been impossible for me to have made it though all that I have. You all only know the saga from the time I became a “Christian”, you are not even aware of all I went through before I even met our Lord! Yet, before I even knew Him, I sensed His Protection..It is so totally beyond me, and no one, NO ONE will EVER convince me differently! Eagle, my prayer is that you continue to explore, and to seek Him..He DOES answer. It is not about ‘saying the right things’, or ‘doing the right things’, or even ‘being in the right places’..It is an intimate relationship that is exactly that-intimate! Once you are face to face with you God, and recognize Jesus as your Savior, well it would be as silly as someone trying to convince you the sky is not blue, and the wind does not blow, and the rain is not wet! It doesn’t matter what men do ‘for the sake of religion’, or anything else, for I know Jesus loves me, and He is there to guide me. I pray you come to know Him as intimately as I do-it is magnificent!
July 24th, 2012 at 1:32 am
SomewhereInTime #20,
I know the conversation has more or less moved on but I just wanted to say thank you for your kind words a week ago. Like you suggested, I had actually already started the process of going back and reading through the Bible (and some other books from various viewpoints) with as fresh a view as I can, just so I can at least try to give it a fair, clean consideration, and I’m in the middle of that now. I agree, legalism (or lots of rules and control over others) really is a burden and can result in spiritual abuse or worse that takes a long time to heal. I don’t know what/if I might end up believing after all the study (I’m not convinced yet) :) but just wanted to say that I appreciated your words and thank you for taking the time to write it.
Kris, not trying to take away from your point about atheism-Christianity debates #206 by my post here… I agree, this blog probably isn’t the place for those debates. Your comment just reminded me that I had never thanked SomewhereInTime for the response. And anyone who says that this site encourages atheism is kinda missing the point. It was the experiences in my life spent in SGM’s controlling system and other parts of conservative Christianity that turned me away from it — not this blog. The blog wouldn’t be here otherwise. You guys actually helped show me that there might be other versions of Christianity that are actually good! (Again, not convinced yet and honestly kinda hope I never am — I do feel like I’ve had enough of it for my lifetime.)
July 24th, 2012 at 1:51 am
Steve240
Josh reads the blogs. He also reacts to them at times, both in his sermons and social media. In them, he can emphasize that they no longer do things they have been accused of.
One thing Josh did in his latest sermon, was to stop preaching and suddenly begin to exhort men in the room who are abusing their wives or children. He soberly told them to stop. I found that more than interesting. I seems to be Josh’s way to deal with the continued accusations of abuse on the blogs.
Fact is, I don’t believe Josh is personally responsible for abuses but, since some of it has happened at CLC, on his watch, he carries some culpability.
I don’t think we will be hearing any more open apologies from CLC pastors. It’s pretty clear to me that they believe the ‘wost offenders’ have migrated south. I may not agree with them on that but, I do think Team CLC has moved-on and have no plans to revisit the past.
So, aside from seriously chastising those who participate in public, “angry’ anonymous, internet conversations, Josh also wanted everyone to know that he doesn’t condone abusing wives or children.
To me, the mode and manner of communication seems to indicate that Josh (speaking for the pastoral team) is not interested in clearly, transparently addressing the abuses of the past.
That would answer at least some of the questions being posed on this blog.
July 24th, 2012 at 4:59 am
Kris…
You are misconstruing me. I am not trying to drag anyone into a debate. Nor am I asking for pity. Nor am I considering attending a SGM church.
All I am saying is that these blogs serve as a good warning to an unhealthy church system. I do have some Christian freinds that I respect, and their churches don’t have some of the problems written about here.
All I am saying is that it’s good that things are discussed here before some unwitting soul gets sucked in by the system and hammered. SGM is not the only authoerterian church out there…there are quite a few.
In closing I think you guys do a good job discussing SGM. I appreciate the honesty and openness that exists here and other blogs. And BTW…lest you think I’m a troll I’m a regular at Wartburg and Internet Monk. Which if you check Internet Monk the other day discussed SGM.
July 24th, 2012 at 7:54 am
Slam Dunk, Kris!
July 24th, 2012 at 8:59 am
Persona --
I dont think CLC can address the abuses of the past. At least not any more than Josh has already done.
Josh has apologized on at least four occasions for the way CLC conducted business. Most of it under CJ’s watch but when Josh took over he didn’t make too many changes so the system motored on under auto-pilot.
When the SGM debacle made the poor behavior/leadership plain to everyone, Josh stepped up and apologized. He called a spade a spade and said what CJ has never been able to do…”I was wrong”.
You can’t spend the rest of your life making up for mistakes in the past. You set things up so it doesn’t happen again and move on. Could CLC privately go to some of those abused most severely? Yes. Should CLC make a big show of going back to Kerrin and ExCLCMom and Larry and many others and do a big show of how sorry they are? No. If they did would it make up for the abuse? No, nothing ever will. (I have yet to fully comprehend what Joel meant when God said, “I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten”.)
The best thing now is to lead in a manner that is not abusive, that involves the congregation, and seeks to avoid the lording and pressure that CJ instilled in the congregation.
As for dealing with past wrongs, I am still looking for the contrite heart in the Fairfax boys. They pulled a Nixon. “Mistakes were made.” That’s about all they have confessed to and no apologies have been communicated. They are hoping they can skate through this whole thing without having to admist/confess any particulars. But they are still changing and an apology may still be in the offing. They hope the change will make a confession/apology superfluous. (Yes, they apologized once…”in these two situations”…but no general, overall apology for control, lording, pressure, nor any of the behaviors CLC admitted to and apologized for.
Ditto, Ashburn, what little exists of them. Poor behavior from the man in charge who threw in with an adulterer has never been acknowledged. No dealing with past issues for him. Fortunately all the real people have left so no one who remains is looking for an apology.
Chesapeake appears to have started on that road, as least from one pastor who has integrity.
I don’t know what it is about these SGM folks. The indoctrination process makes them blind to their own pride.
But to close this down, CLC can’t go back and make things right, all they can do is apologize and promise not to do that nor allow that in the future. All the kings horses and all the kings men, couldn’t put Humpty together again.
July 24th, 2012 at 9:22 am
It seems to me that there is something inherently troll-like in the very act of entering into a conversation with those of a Christian persuasion with the declaration that one is an atheist.
I’ve been around the internet for a long time, and I’ve never witnessed a self-proclaimed atheist participate in a Christian forum for any length of time and -- in the end -- exhibit anything even resembling open-mindedness. Yet he knows very well that making such a declaration to Christians is like putting a coin in a vending machine. Christians will be compelled to enter into dialog with the atheist, will be compelled to be “nice” and do their best to seem open and accepting of him, not judgmental and mean like the Christians whom the atheist claims turned him off to Christianity.
I just don’t like games like that. Eagle, I don’t mean to pick on you if you were honestly trying to express your appreciation for the site. I’m grateful for the positive feedback. But I do find it interesting that you think it was necessary to mention your atheism at all.
In my experience, the atheist feels the need to declare his atheism to Christians because he gets his kicks out of seeing the way idiot Christians can be manipulated into engaging with him. The atheist is compelled to tell people he’s an atheist because he is seeking reassurance that he is intellectually superior to those who believe in God.
And I don’t play those games here.
I think as Christians, we ought not to be tricked into letting ourselves get manipulated by people pretending to be interested in our perspective, when all the while what they want to do is make themselves feel better about their embrace of darkness through arguing and debating more people to their perspective. I also think that we have the perfect right (and even a duty) to be offended by anyone arrogant enough and foolish enough to have the nerve to say that God does not exist. I’m sorry they feel that way. I’m grieved for whatever tragic offenses led them down that path.
But ultimately, one day, they are going to face this God at whom they so readily thumb their noses now, and it’s not going to be a good day for them. If we Christians truly believe this, then we are irresponsible fools for not saying so. In the end, we are not showing the atheist any love whatsoever by our calm acceptance of what they say. All we are doing is trying to show off to the world how smart and open-minded we are…and that, my friends, is wrong.
July 24th, 2012 at 9:43 am
Eagle said he/she was agnostic but never used the word atheist. In my experience agnostics are respectful of the bounds of religious organization, whereas Internet atheists typicaly aren’t.
Christians in general don’t know what to do with people who were gung-ho and then became agnostic. The new Reformed are leaving a long trail of such people. I think Eagle was saying that if more people stood up and pointed out the problems that it’d save a lot of people grief.
July 24th, 2012 at 10:34 am
Eagle,
I am so glad you came by to encourage Kris and those of us who share here. Thank you. I feel much the same way in that I wish there were sites like this when I was at Cov Fel! It would have helped me to process the insanity so much better. I am glad this site has helped you as it has me.
Kris,
I know you aren’t looking for a cheerleader or a rah rah with this main post. That is why I have held back but I just have to say how grateful I am that God has been using you here. I understand that you may be completely burned out from the SGM double talk, the SGM insanity and the other heartache that comes along with what you are doing. And I understand if you just need to wash your hands and walk away. (Not that you said anything to that effect, but if you do, it would be understandable.)
I just wanted to tell you what an impact this site has had on my life and the healing God has done in me through it.
Thank you,
Stunned
July 24th, 2012 at 10:40 am
Kris, you’ve been around the block a few times. I just learned something new from you.
I guess it would be like a Christian posting on an agnostic or atheist board and stating he’s a Christian and agrees that some agnostic/atheistic organizations are damaging to the atheist cause, while others seem genuine enough. The agnostic/atheists there would probably view his comments as possible bait also.
The bottom line is that in the end, our decision to accept Christ’s sacrifice for our sins, does not hinge on how people in a cult parading as Christianity treat us. Christianity is not a people-pleasing faith, but a God honoring one.
As Christians our foundation must be in God’s Word through faith (trust) in Christ alone. No man as mediator, and no man serving as an effective blockade. So that no person claiming to be agnostic or atheist can blame any Christian, so-called or genuine with faults, for his own lack of faith in God.
In essence an agnostic/atheist theoretically would seemingly have little interest in discerning this matter unless he has other motives.
In the end God knows, but it’s good Kris brought the question to light and respectfully so in honesty. In the past, I’ve seen many agnostic/atheists jump into Christian discussions (here and elsewhere) and drift threads toward their reasons for unbelief -- which usually devolve into ridicule of the intellectual capacities of Christians.
July 24th, 2012 at 10:58 am
Patricia said,
Exactly.
I’m not saying that Eagle had any intention of “going there,” but again, I just don’t see any need for the introduction of one’s atheism or agnosticism into a conversation with Christians. In my experience, when that topic arises, the discussion quickly devolves into A) the Christians doing backflips to show how loving and accepting they are of the atheist/agnostic, how different they are from the mean and condemning Christians whom the atheist/agnostic (at least somewhat) blames for his atheism/agnosticism; and B) the atheist/agnostic then gaining a platform to promote his/her beliefs (or supposed lack thereof, although of course atheism/agnosticism is its own faith, really).
Nothing grosses me out more than the Christian who prides himself (or herself) in his/her “intellectual openness,” who might jump in and tell the atheist/agnostic how much he/she welcomes the input of the atheist/agnostic. I think it’s offensive to God for a Christian to put his/her own “intellectualism” ahead of being honest about what his/her faith says about the deliberate unbeliever, the unbeliever who (supposedly) once knew the truth but has now rejected it.
What can such a person even give us, ultimately? Doesn’t the Bible say the person who claims there is no God is in darkness? Doesn’t the Bible call this person a fool?
Why would we be so eager to open ourselves up to fools?
I think Christians who do this have a misplaced pride in their own (perceived) academic minds, their own (perceived) intellectual accomplishments. It’s more important to them to prove their own open-mindedness rather than stand for what the Bible actually says about the individual who is purposefully turning his/her back on what Jesus did.
[EDITED TO ADD - This comment was not in response to anyone in particular who has commented. I got an email notifying me of Patricia's comment because it was stuck in the moderation queue, and I wrote this without reading everything else that had been posted.]
July 24th, 2012 at 11:00 am
After the penalties handed down to Penn State yesterday, just think what would happen if SGM was a college or university?
Pride and arrogance don’t fare to well in the real world. Must be nice to be surronded by morons playing the shell game.
July 24th, 2012 at 11:25 am
XYZ,
You are welcome. Again, it’s a new and incredible experience to meet the living God in the Bible then it is to meet the fake one that many (not all) in SG presented to you. Pray to the Lord himself to open your eyes to what He is saying to you. Not that it is preached much in SG, but you CAN have a real and personal relationship with Jesus. He will speak to you through the Holy Spirit.
July 24th, 2012 at 12:30 pm
A few minutes ago a story in the press spoke about a Philadelphia area Monsignor who received 3-6 years in prison for covering up sex abuse of children by priests under his supervision. Having read this blog for quite awhile I am aware of the many instances of similar behavior in our churches. I am saddened that the alleged similar behavior by SGM leadership has been allowed to slip under the bed so to speak, and no one has been called out for it. There should have been an accounting for this behavior somewhere. I remain puzzled by this.
July 24th, 2012 at 12:56 pm
“Grain of Salt” said,
You and me both!
I think there are many factors at work that have thus far offered SGM-the-organization a level of protection from similar legal consequences. The biggest thing is the reluctance that many victims and their families feel about taking on such a fight. Particularly in light of how the rest of the Reformed Christian world has responded to the investigation of CJ, it can feel like we must be the crazy ones. (Matter of fact, the AoR report essentially declared that SGM’s victims are equally as wrong as SGM’s leadership.)
Many victims also lack the requisite paper trail. I know that when I have interacted with people who shared their stories privately, things were so often kept deliberately vague, to where I could only assess these people’s claims in terms of my gut feelings. It seemed logical to me to believe them. But that’s not enough in a court of law.
Maybe someday someone (or a group of someones) somewhere will band together and get the legal vindication they ought to have gotten years ago. Although I’m no lawyer, it strikes me that there are remarkable similarities between the way SGM leaders treated situations of abuse and the way the Penn State and Catholic Church scandals were mishandled.
July 24th, 2012 at 1:25 pm
It would be difficult but not impossible for a case to move forward.
I guess the questions you would have to start off with is are you going after SGM or are you going after individual pastors?
Im kinda curious to see what people think.
July 24th, 2012 at 1:52 pm
Another Joe -
This is another piece of what would make legal action against SGM so daunting a prospect.
It’s my belief that SGM-the-organization, through the likes of CJ and his “apostles,” systematically propagated ideas to pastors about the all-sufficiency of the “local church,” and how the pastors wielded the highest authority in all situations and ought to weigh in on all members’ problems and have their assessments accepted and humbly submitted to. I also believe that it was definitely communicated to SGM pastors, both by example and through direct instruction, that there was no theological room for victimhood, and that if someone continued to point out another person’s sin, he was automatically in the wrong for not embracing his own “worst sinner” status first.
In the legal world, though, I don’t know how easily any of this could be proven. It had to have been conveyed (taught) to pastors at least somewhat systematically, for so many otherwise decent men from various locations around the country to have vacated complete common sense in situations as heinous as child sex abuse. Yet did SGM leave any sort of a paper trail?
It’s hard to say.
And unfortunately, although SGM can now proudly point any questioner to the AoR report as some sort of evidence of their openness to being evaluated by outsiders, the AoR folks did little to pursue the truth of what really happened in these situations.
July 24th, 2012 at 1:54 pm
It would seem to me that when allegations are publicly voiced without affirmation (that is, no names), as it should be in public fora, that there must be someone “driving the ship”. That is to say, the Commanding Officer is always responsible for anything that happens under his command. Using this analogy, those individuals “in command”, are to be held individually responsible for the behavior of his/her priests, pastors, or whomever allegedly perpetrated these acts over the years. There doesn’t seem to be an avenue of approach for SGM to be held liable. Make yojur own conclusions about just who that might be.
July 24th, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Kris 223
To legally create a paper trail in an abuse case isn’t very difficult. You just need to write down about when abuse happened and who did it. You can also photograph bruises, and gather witness accounts. But is usually not too hard to make a case that abuse or neglect happened.
Conversely, one of the things I noticed at CLC, was that even when the woman presented with evident bruises, even dislocated bones, from beatings at the hands of an abusive, adulterous spouse, the husband received what resembles a free pass, by the pastor.
A key feature in a scenario like this was if the couple was not a part of the glitterati, someone highly cherished and socially important, they received very little attention or follow-up. So, unless they involved secular authorities, their husbands were left to go their merry way.
I never understood how pastors could excuse abusive behavior and even outright lies, by perpetrators. For some reason, at times, pastors would even aid wretched husbands in their deceitfulness and believe them rather than their victims.
Even more troubling is thusfar, we have no asurety that those practices have dramatically changed at CLC. Can anyone report that, behind the scenes, the CLC counseling team automatically involves social services in cases of abuse? Is anyone aware of cases where men had more than their hand slapped for abusive behavior? Do they do more than call them out during Sunday sermons?
July 24th, 2012 at 2:37 pm
Last week our kids were listening to some Life Lessons Odyssey CD’s. One of the stories had a ding dong scripture fazor. When someone said something against the Bible the scripture fazor would go off and quote a scripture.
As I was listening to the CD I just thought what it would be like to listen to CJ with my scripture fazor. I didn’t sin, no really I didn’t. Buzz, buzz, buzz. Leviticus 19:11 You shall not steal, neither deal falsely, niether lie one to another.
I wish I woulda had a scripture fazor when I went to my old SGM church.
July 24th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
Anyone
Ray Ortland -- at The Gospel Coalition has a post about “The Religiously Wounded.”
He says…
“Or at least, the beginning of the end. A new era of shalom must start somewhere. The religiously-wounded must have somewhere to go, some place where they will be safe from attack, where they can heal through the gospel and live again.”
Thought -- after his love affair with -- SGM -- Act 29 -- and the rest of the YRR
Someone here might have a few words for him --
And -- before he removes my comment -- like he has done in the past. ;-)
July 24th, 2012 at 4:38 pm
A lawsuit against SGM, Inc for the behavior of a non-SGM, Inc employee, such as the pastor of a SGM church, would be impossible to win. Recent attempts in Calvary Chapel failed due to the “agency” concept. The 2006 member church agreement used the perfect language to ensure that the Inc was legally not responsible for the actions of the pastors. It actually contains the word “agency”, and adds an “autonomous” cherry on top for good measure.
July 24th, 2012 at 4:53 pm
Jim
My point exactly. So, that leaves the CO (monsignor et al) to be brought to justice and accountability for the alleged actions of those under him/her. QED
July 24th, 2012 at 5:04 pm
Grain of salt,
Comment #222, “There should have been an accounting for this behavior somewhere.”
There will be, on that day.
Also, there is somewhat of a paper trail. Just compare Fairfax’s Family meeting (possibly on their website, from July 2011) to the accounts given by the victim’s families on this blog, all out of Fairfax. Noel’s Story, Wallace’s Story and Taylor’s Story. You could find them in the “search” box above.
Can’t miss that Family meeting, it’s the one where the Sr. Pastor, M.Mullery opens the meeting with a joke, knowing they were going to discuss child sex abuse. That should give you an indication of where he was headed and the intention of the meeting.
July 24th, 2012 at 5:11 pm
That is why the polity structure that CJ and Co. are promoting is insidious! All the churches would be autonomous, which means SGM can’t be held “legally” accountable for anything at the local level. YET, SGM wants the local churches to be spiritually submitted to them and oversee what they do. EXCUSE ME! I think lawyers are writing the polity papers. Besides, this is no different than what they have been doing for the past 20 years or so.
July 24th, 2012 at 5:25 pm
Bridget
You are spot on.
July 24th, 2012 at 8:51 pm
Jim,
Has the ruling already happened in the Calvary Chapel case?
July 24th, 2012 at 8:52 pm
I am a Christian, but having been through some very wounding experiences in cult-like churches, I have seen friends drift into agnosticism and atheism. I grieve over this, but I don’t judge them for this. I understand what it’s like to feel very confused and to wonder if EVERYTHING is a lie, even God’s existence. Although these friends will start a discussion saying that they’re an atheist or agnostic, I’ve found that if I give them space to talk and share their hearts, they actually move closer towards a belief in God. Preaching at them sends them scurrying far, far away. I think prayer, time and unconditional love help the most.
Anyways, I don’t know Eagle’s heart, but I don’t think he was being a troll. (I’ve read his comments on WW before.) Think about it-- in most forums, if we are not part of the majority group but want to share some info, we’ll usually state a disclaimer: “I am not a Christian, but…..” “I am not a homeschooling mom, but….” etc.
July 24th, 2012 at 9:18 pm
What I’m about to say is primarily for anyone currently attending an SGM church:
Regarding the child abuse issue, pedophiles favor any organization that tends to have blind followers fearful of questioning a leader. Abuse occurs more readily in these settings.
It’s sad that most parents think this type of thing could never happen to their child as it’s such a detestable thing to consider, but for what it’s worth….anyone attending an SGM church needs to be vigilant in watching his or her children in home group or other settings. If the unthinkable ever happens, then keeping records of doctor visits, recordings of conversations with pastors, and getting a qualified therapist involved -- are all musts in my view.
Sadly, children are sometimes required to testify against an abuser and they are not always believed. But if a parent has written documentation from a doctor, a therapist and recordings of conversations, it can go along way.
My heart goes out to the families who have been ill affected. It is very painful to see such serious violations ignored. I really do hope that people make use of good therapists, hopefully Christian, in these situations to assist with healing. Childhood sexual abuse requires the help of a qualified therapist educated in the trauma and PTSD that can result. Sadly, most pastors are not trained in this. Good Biblically grounded pastors (outside the SGM circus) can be a wonderful support by showing compassion and praying with the families.
Frankly, I think it is very sad that more SGM pastors did not willingly step down from their positions and leave SGM upon realizing how much abuse has taken place in the organization. Employment is hard now, but any true Christian pastor who has been preaching on God’s sovereignty ought to be able to put those words into the action of doing what is right in God’s sight.
July 24th, 2012 at 9:36 pm
Jim, the legalese is there to intimidate and while it may place more hoops to jump through, if a parent has contacted the proper authorities and obtained supportive documentation then action can and should be taken.
I intensely dislike any feeling of helplessness when it comes to this issue. The media was all over the men going against Penn State, but their dogged determination to pursue justice won.
Is the Lord’s arm so short that He cannot defend on of these little ones? I dare say not!
July 24th, 2012 at 11:13 pm
AMEN!! :Approve:
July 25th, 2012 at 7:18 am
Kris,
In the idaho case, the judge ruled that CCCM (the mothership) and CCOF (the Inc) could not be held responsible for the actions of the member churches involved in the suit.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:27 am
There is a Facebook page that has some helpful articles dealing with sex abuse.
It’s called G.R.A.C.E. Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment.
Patricia,
#237 -- Great points, all of them. Good therapists can make all the difference, our child is still alive because of their help. Sadly, one of the first things some victims must unpackage are the many years that SGM preached against counseling. The “guilt” of seeking out professional help has to be tackled first.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:39 am
Happymom brings up the salient point in this discussion.
The true indictment of SGM and the churches is their poor response to the sexual assaults. Unfortunately, most of the assaults occurred outside of the church building. Unlike Sandusky, who was an employee of the university and assaulted children on university property and inside university facilities, most of the incidents here happened off church property and the pedophiles were not church employees.
This would make a lawsuit all that more difficult. The churches real problems were in how they counseled people (or in this case failed to counsel people).
But then the “you have sin so you are equally to blame” approach to ALL PROBLEMS is a issue with more than just sexual abuse cases in SGM.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:57 am
intheNICKoftime said,
Yep!
I’d say this succinctly sums up what happened in just about every story of spiritual abuse within SGM.
Anytime conflict arose, members were expected to submit to their leaders’ (pastors’) assessment of the situation, which typically meant agreeing with their pastors about how their own sinfulness contributed to whatever conflict they were facing.
So, the abused wife who went to a pastor for help in her marriage was directed to think about how she might be provoking the abuse…how she might need to submit more in order to avoid abuse…what she might have done to weaken her marriage…
The member who comes to his pastor to express concern over, say, the way church leaders are handling finances will be pointed back to his own sinfulness and will be told that to question leaders is to exhibit the sin of pride. Sure, maybe the pastor will (with his new SGM training to appear open-minded) will initially thank the member for sharing his concerns. But the end result will be the same -- “You need to look first at your own sinfulness, and when you are 100% without sin yourself [which of course is impossible], then you can critique our leadership decisions.”
The parents whose child was molested by another church member are quickly directed away from pursuing justice through the legal system and are instead told that their desire for justice is a symptom of their own sinful lack of forgiveness…
And then, members who lock horns with their pastors and refuse to follow their pastors’ counsel are guilty of the sin of not submitting to their authorities…
Historically, within SGM, it’s always been about getting members to look ever more inward so that they can magnify their own sinfulness and thereby ignore the wrong done by everyone else, whether that’s an abusive spouse, a pedophile, or a power-hungry pastor. There’s absolutely no room (in SGM pastors’ thinking) for anyone to be just a plain old straight-up victim.
While some of this “tough love” is not necessarily wrong in some situations -- how many of us can easily think of people who would benefit by being told to quit blaming others for their problems? -- the reality is that there actually are plenty of situations where one party’s contributions to a conflict are far greater than the other party’s contributions. SGM pastors routinely missed the boat in cases of abuse because they were trained to apply their “tough love” you-must-always-be-the-worst-sinner-you-know approach in a completely wooden fashion, with no room for variation or common sense.
Another piece of the problem is SGM’s belief that the “local church” must provide the final answer and the final authority for every situation. That’s why certain pastors were so reluctant to involve the justice system in cases of abuse. They believed on a spiritual level that their own authority trumped anything that could be provided by the cops or social services.
Then there’s also the fact that SGM has long believed and taught that the “local church” is an essential part of a person’s sanctification, which is an inseparable part of a person’s salvation…to the point where ultimately, if a person becomes separated from his local church, he very well may not be saved anymore. SGM leaders can dance around that teaching and try to parse it and try to qualify it, but if you really dig and press, and really examine the principles laid out in various messages through the years, as well as in books like CJ Mahaney’s Why Small Groups, SGMers are taught that their participation in their SGM church, along with their continued submission to their SGM leaders, is a key aspect of their sanctification…and if they do not exhibit sanctification, then they probably are not saved.
So, in a situation where child abuse has occurred, it is far more of a priority to the pastor to keep everyone within the confines of the “local church” rather than open things up to the justice system and run the risk of having people submit to a different authority…and/or be removed from the sanctifying “local church” environment, which, again, is crucial to the person’s right standing with God.
I just realized that this comment is something of an abbreviated rehash of this post: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2011/09/02/why-sovereign-grace-ministries-doesnt-like-victims/ I know I’ve already linked to the Why Sovereign Grace Ministries Doesn’t Like Victims post recently, but I think it offers a great summary of the weird mindset -- the mindset that seems so incredibly incomprehensible to the SGM outsider -- that was at work in many of the mishandled situations.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:39 pm
Kris 243
Good job! Yours is a very concise summary of the spiral of control used by many SGM Pastors.
I think some SGM pastors should return to their former careers and leave guidance and counseling to others more gifted and trained.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:44 pm
SGM leadership = (Where’s the throw-up emoticon?)
Through their silence they’re guilty of criminal negligence and some have served as accomplices in crime. They will one day answer to God for these little ones they’ve allowed to suffer and those who will no doubt follow given the direction this is going.
July 25th, 2012 at 3:17 pm
I haven’t posted here in a long time, and I’ve been reading periodically. I haven’t read all the comments in this post, so forgive me if I’m bringing up something that has already been discussed. Kris, I think I can understand your waning interest in SGM, but I have to admit that the lack of new posts since early June came across to me like waning interest in us, the Survivors. To come back and see no new posts week after week made me wonder if this blog was on its last legs, limping along on reader comments, rather than the vibrant exchange I was drawn to when I first came here about a year ago. It was the freshness of this blog, the consistent new posts that generated volumes of comments, that helped me and my family get through leaving our SGM church. There is nothing else out there that even comes close to providing the community and support I have found here. This blog is one in a million. As, Lord willing, more and more people have the scales dropped from their eyes and leave their SGM churches, they will need the supportive, loving community found here. Kris, please don’t grow weary in doing well. Please put up a post or highlight a reader comment every week or so, or bring back something from the archives…just something so that the newcomers to this site find the robust dialog and fellowship that have helped countless of us find True freedom outside SGM.
July 25th, 2012 at 3:57 pm
CoBro,
Thanks for your encouragement. I really appreciate it.
I’m going to try to do a better job of keeping posts current.