From Brent Detwiler’s site comes the following (you can access his original, which contains his commentary on the separation, here):
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The following joint statement was sent out yesterday to all the SGM pastors.
July 24, 2012
A Joint Statement: Redeemer Church of Charlottesville, VA and Sovereign Grace Ministries
We want to let you know that Redeemer Church of Charlottesville has decided to end their association with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Though saddened by this news, we are supportive of their decision. We are very grateful for the humble and careful way they have worked through this and the peaceable and respectful way we have been able to discuss our differences. But mostly, we are grateful for the long relationship we have had with Keith Breault. He continues to be a man whom we love and respect. We wish him, his leadership team, and Redeemer Church great blessings and success in the future. Though separating in formal association, we are not separated in mutual affection, mutual respect, and mutual passion to see God glorified through gospel-centered local churches.
Below is a letter from Keith explaining this separation from their perspective.
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I’m writing on behalf of Redeemer Church of Charlottesville to inform you that on July 9th we separated from SGM.
As you can imagine, this decision was difficult for every member of our leadership team and for many in our church — who have a long history with SGM. We have enjoyed a rich partnership with SGM and thank God for the ways in which we have been trained, strengthened and fed through this wonderful group of believers. The relationships we’ve forged within SGM over the years are some of the dearest we possess, and we hope changing our affiliation won’t alter the deep fellowship God has wrought and nurtured.
Over the past year, we have been watching events unfold while simultaneously planting this new church in Charlottesville. Naturally, we have been evaluating SGM’s leadership in light of how it corresponds with our own priorities and values. “Consistent divergence” describes the dynamic between SGM’s leadership and our own instincts and convictions. We love the people of SGM and we love the leaders of SGM, but differences in some key areas make peaceful departure our best option.
This decision and its rationale were expressed in detail to SGM by letter on July 9, with our commitment to uphold respect and goodwill. In phone calls the following day with C.J. Mahaney, Dave Harvey, and Mickey Connolly — and a conference call Thursday between Mickey and our leadership team — we exchanged expressions of mutual encouragement and respect for our varied perspectives. We also exchanged commitments to conduct this transition peaceably, with the Gospel in mind, wishing each other maximum joy and fruitfulness as we all continue to follow Jesus.
Thank you for your friendship and support throughout our years of SGM partnership. We invite your prayers as we continue spreading the Gospel in Charlottesville.
With our brotherly love, in Christ
Keith Breault
August 2nd, 2012 at 4:37 pm
in the nick you’ve got some of your CovFel facts wrong. Ken Mellinger never attended there, and Don Shorey didn’t take 1/2 the church. It was less than 100.
I’m on your side, but I don’t like un-facts being presented as facts. (I’m not sure why I even looked at this site today, as we’ve left and are trying to mentally move on.) retreating to my corner now.
August 2nd, 2012 at 5:06 pm
Just to clarify, #99, Bill Patton and Allen Redrup, after being de-gifted at different times, both stayed at CovFel and still remain faithful members after several years. They both recently received a public apology from Dave Harvey/CovFel in a members meeting and humbly forgave Dave. As I observed before, these are 2 truly humble men.
Chris Patton (Bill’s son) is a pastor in Delaware, not NJ. And Tim Shorey (Joel’s dad) can be seen at Covfel. I got the idea that he left his former church because of an on-going physical condition. He preached at Covfel a while back; a good message from Isaiah 40. Don Shorey left CovFel of his own accord (I think) to start a new church. In hind sight, maybe I did not know the whole true story back then. We heard he had some differences in doctrine. We weren’t told exactly what.
So, that’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it.
August 2nd, 2012 at 6:21 pm
Yep, Bills son is in Del, not NJ. Missed that one in my notes.
Oswald, Was the apology to Bill and Allen as thorough as the apology that Tim Hulme made down in Chesapeake? Or was it just “sorry for how you were treated”?
Tim must be back from his sabbatical.
But Don did not leave “of his own accord”. At least that depends on how you define that term. If someone does things you cant stomach and changes the system so much that you cant agree on anything and they tell you too bad, that’s the way it is now and you leave, then perhaps he did leave on his own accord. And if, when you leave you take with you one of the other pastors and enough families (100?) to start a new church down the road, then Yes, Don left on his own accord.
And I could swear that Ken Mellinger was at CovFel way back in the early days. I thought he was there and asked to step down for a while…came back as an admin pastor then regular pastor and then given the Harrisburg Plant. Any old timers from CovFel out there to prove me right? or wrong?
And all of that is just what happened in SGM up north. There are more sordid tales from our southern brothers and sisters in Richmond, N.C. and Atlanta! I just dont know all the details on those.
August 2nd, 2012 at 8:10 pm
My take on the “apology” that Dave Harvey gave was that it was a way for Harvey to continue being a leader now that at least one of his children were having behaviour issues with the same severity to or worse than the behaviour of the children of these former “disqualified” pastors.
It was Harvey and other leaders changing the rules now that the rule that was imposed on these two men wouldn’t have to be imposed on Harvey. I have mixed emotions about someone changing the rules that they imposed on someone else when they are now applying to the person wanting to change them. One thought I have is that it was better for Harvey and other current leaders to do this than to try and hide issues with a leader’s child like C.J. Mahaney allegedly did with his own son’s sin.
It is sometimes easy to condemn other leaders before you have children that are grown or before you were lucky and didn’t a child with more of a wild rebellious temperment. Harvey found this out the hard way. Mahaney’s first set of children were apparently compliant girls (not sayiing all girls are) and then later he had one son and things can be different with boys.
August 2nd, 2012 at 8:14 pm
Nick,
Quick correction of the “revolving door at Macy’s at Christmastime” pastors at Chesapeake:
Kirk Alexander is still there.
And…who is Chad Rogers? I was there through all of this and don’t remember him?
And we had an “almost pastor”…he went to PC and then somewhere else…young guy, musical, wife was a music teacher at one time…can’t think of his name. If someone said it, I’d recognize it.
We also had a chronic issue with revolving caregroups. Just when you were getting to know some folks…SPLIT! Change, shift.
Funny. When I left the SG church in Chesapeake, I kind of, sort of left on good terms, and I expressed interest in still wanting to attend caregroup for awhile as I went around and visited churches to find my new church home. They prayed for me, supported me, and wished me the best. I was told, “Of course, of course.” I just wanted to stay connected to some folks while going through my transition. Verbally, I was affirmed that it would be great. But, as soon as you can blink your eye, I was: deleted from the caregroup e-mail list…and locked out of the church directory almost instantaneously. As though I did not exist anymore. I am surprised that I was not “defriended” on facebook by people. Out of sight, out of mind…I suppose. I mean…I can understand gradually losing touch as I get involved in new circles of people at a new church. But, it was all so abrubt. Nobody followed up with me…not even on facebook…to ask me how I was doing or how my church visiting was going…nothing. Kind of sad, really. Oh wait…one person followed up with me…someone who also left the church and knew I was visiting around.
August 2nd, 2012 at 8:29 pm
IntheNick 99
One addition to your account is that John Butler was ‘re-gifted’ a few years ago and sent to plant the SGM church in, Dayton, OH (where the Mahaney’s son was a member last year). John’s wife is a sister of Doris Tomczak.
I think John and his wife are good people and I’m glad they get to pastor the flock, again. I also think it is notable that CJ recognized his mistake and, restored them. It means he has changed his mind on extenuating circumstances.
It is also commendable that Chesapeake included the Butlers in their anniversary bash a few years ago.
Still, I think it’s sad that John didn’t find another organization to work for and, the timing couldn’t be much worse!
I wonder if it will be possible to account for all the stories of gifting and de-gifting and to tease out the reasons for each SGM transfer? Some stories will be taken to the grave.
August 2nd, 2012 at 9:58 pm
Nick and Steve — Who can say whether the ‘apology’ to Patton and Redrup was just used for Dave’s benefit or not. It is said that there was much research by other CovFel pastors to re-address the matter of their de-giftings. Dave’s words of apology were very emotional. Again, …spin? Who can tell. We can speculate, but we don’t know. You may be able to get a CD of the members meeting. There is one available for free. (A practice that is almost NEVER done?)
I’ve heard from a reliable source that Tim S has said he will not be returning to his former church in NJ.
Concerning Ken Mellinger, I’m almost sure that he was never a pastor at CovFel. He was (I think) sent out to plant the Harrisburg church from Lancaster Covenant (now called something more SGM appropriate) Ken is one pastor who was not de-gifted even though having a VERY rebellious teenage son; our own Jared, Sr P at CovFel.
August 2nd, 2012 at 10:35 pm
From Argus #62:
“I am painfully familiar with the infamous San Diego Shankings (plural) that forever proved that SGM “Apostles” have no flashing red Bat Phone from Heaven.”
Can anyone tell me what that’s about? He says it’s infamous, but I don’t know the story. Thanks.
August 2nd, 2012 at 10:35 pm
Steve240,
Of course they forgave them! They had to!!! Harvey’s kids were 100x worse than the others. It is such a sham!
August 2nd, 2012 at 11:15 pm
Square Peg,
Was the “almost pastor’ Albert Turner? He’s a pastor at the Frederick, MD church.
August 2nd, 2012 at 11:26 pm
HowDee YaAll,
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“Please pray for Eagle, our regular TWW commenter, who was admitted to the Intensive Care Unit in a hospital in the DC area with a serious systemic infection which grew out of a cut on his leg. He is very, very sick. I have changed this announcement to allow for comments or you can send emails to TWW which we will forward to his email account. pray for God’s strength and peace.”
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-Dee@TWW
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http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/29/eagle-is-seriously-ill-please-pray-for-him/#comment-54813
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Eagle may have lost a battle for his “faith”, Kris, but be of good cheer, the war ain’t over yet.
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I’de give Eagle a glass of cold water any time & anywhere!
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ATB Eagle!
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Our faith has substance.
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…and so our prayers!
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“We Are The Reason”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrPAZbD6fG0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Yahooooooooo!
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Sopy ;~)
___
Comic relief: Three Dog Night -- “Celebrate”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXI6CdTVJ-0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=3665&cp=5#comment-65269
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=3665&cp=5#comment-65276
August 2nd, 2012 at 11:39 pm
@103 and @107. Ken Mellinger was never a pastor before taking over Living Hope Church in the 90′s.
August 3rd, 2012 at 6:03 am
Nick, you did a GREAT job up there in 99. What a sick, dysfunctional family of churches, eh?
Just a few minor corrections:
unless he became a pastor after 2001, Kent Simon was not a pastor.
I was very involved at Cov Fel for its first 15 years, even volunteering in the office for a few years, and I never even heard the name Ken Mellinger.
I don’t think the apology at Cov Fel was anywhere near thorough enough.
Oswald, it’s interesting that you say that you got the impression that Tim is on sabbatical from the Tom’s River, NJ church due to physical problems. Isn’t it amazing how good SGM is at creating impressions, yet without actually speaking truth? So tragic.
Don Shorey did NOT leave of his own accord, no matter what the public story that the Cov Fel pastors created was.
Oswald, I am confused by your line, “It is said that there was much research by other CovFel pastors to re-address the matter of their de-giftings.” I just went to double check Covenant Fellowship’s website and at least 8 of the 12 men who are pastors/on staff now were in the know back when Alan and Bill were forced out. There was no need for any research. These guys were there and most of them complicite. The research line sounds more like, “Ah, we didn’t do it” than, “Yeah, we sold our brothers down the river. We did it with our own two hands.” Such perversion of truth, to me.
beautiful lies is correct- when Shorey and McMullin left, no where near half of the church left. Just some really good folks left. Many who had been involved at Cov Fel for more than a decade.
August 3rd, 2012 at 7:00 am
To Lost in Cyber Space #110,
Yes, it was Albert Turner, I believe. Thanks for that.
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:05 am
Persona said --
THIS IS A TREMENDOUSLY IMPORTANT POINT! <— <—
The answers is no. Because much of the SGM gifting is in their own eyes. THEY decide if you are gifted or not. THEY make the judgement call. THEY control gifting.
This is so important because THEY are about to write polity that says THEY are called as APOSTLES.
See, it is all kind of easy when YOU make the important calls about WHO is gifted and who is not and WHO lost their gift!
Gifting = Control
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:17 am
So the apology was not a real apology but just a way of changing the standards. The apology did not describe the sin, explain the bad consequences it had, did not explain how it made the other party feel, and left no idea of how he would change in the future for this not to happen again.
Did he say something like, “I regret not more effectively guarding misapplication of my fatherly directives”, kind of a CJ type of apology?
It was certainly nothing like the apology that came from Chesapeake nor the three apologies that have come from CLC!
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:26 am
Agreed, that parenting views change as you first have children of your own and then later as the numbers increase and then finally when they are older. Certainly raising girls is different from boys.
Most of the boys/young men I know in SGM churches are on with wimpy side. I see some of those families with 10 kids and the girls all turn out wonderfully. They are grace filled, gentle, caring, beautiful women. The problem is their brothers are usually the same way. No very manly. But then real manliness and most of the traits that mark a man as someone you might like to follow or throw in with are squeezed out in SGM. That is pride and we cant have any of that. (That is why pastor dads have to open the door for their boys, because SGM boys dont have the chutzpah to do it on their own. Any backbone left in the boys is called rebellion and it quickly stamped out!
In the end, it is natural and normal to change your opinions in child rearing. What is not natural is to change your opinions for yourself but still hold others to the old standards.
When was the last SGM pastor run out of office for the sins of his children? When was the last time that double standard was applied in any SGM churches that you know?
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:34 am
Kirk IS still at Chesapeake. Sorry for that oversight. I had highlighted all the pastors that had been degifted from there and I think Kirk was the only one that was not highlighted in my notes so I missed him. Apologies, Kirk.
Chad Rogers wound up at the Atlanta church. He came from Chesapeake and I thought he returned home for a short while before he went further south. But he would have “grown up” and been influenced by Brault’s type of “leadership”. He may have escaped un-infected, I don’t know anything about his time at the Atlanta Church but he is not there now. Just Aaron Anderson and Brett Campbell…kind of a Chesapeake “South” church since both pastors there were former Chesapeake pastors.
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:36 am
“Operation Ceege? (2012)”
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HowDee YaAll,
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Dah…Whatz Up, Doc?
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Da Ceege has a hall-pass from AoR?
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Da Ceege has a hall-pass from da big dogs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1FSRMfNtLU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Da Ceege has skipped town wit da checkbook?
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hmmm…
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Pass go, collect $5M?
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Oh!, the irony…
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hum, hum,hum…
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…♪♫♪Da Ceege backpeddles over de blackmail, Da Ceege presides again over de See…
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“A Second Time?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-QukOhEUUE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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…♪♫♪Da Ceege has parked his tocas de Louisville, oh! bring back da Ceege ta me…
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye3cIHH62_A&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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all together now!
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♪♫♪bring back, bring back, oh! bring back da Ceege to me, to me, oh! bring back, bring back, …oh! bring back da Ceege to me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GNrVb-HtZ4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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(grin)
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The joke’s on you, SGM, eh?
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hahahahahahahaha
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Sopy ;~)
___
Comic relief: Bugs Bunny in “Operation Rabbit”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoKA2OLJ8hs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Bonus: Bugs Bunny in da “Barbary Coast Bunny”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24ZFz1rfCoc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
--
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:42 am
Peg --
Rotating care group leaders is a control mechanism.
If you rotate leadership roles the people desirous of those positions will do more and more to attain those positions.
Once in the position they are willing to do more and go further to keep those positions because they know the leadership position can be taken away on a whim. And there are always people that want to step up to that care group leaders position.
Additionally, if you switch out your leaders on a regular basis no one can be in a position long enough to develop their own small following or garner enough loyalty to sway the minds of people under their “care”.
SGM has all the power centralized in two or three guys and very few places for anyone else to “strut their stuff” thereby kind of castrating the men who, by normal God given endowment, would like to exercise their drive and zeal to get things done!
Ditto for ignoring you when you officially left, even on good terms. YOU are no longer controllable so you must be completely cut off.
In hindsight is is all Machiavelli 101.
August 3rd, 2012 at 10:17 am
Aiden, I am pretty sure there is a link with more details somewhere. Maybe someone can look it up.
First, some ‘lesser’ details. Craig Cabaniss (now board member)
was planting pastor at Grace Church San Diego. Eventually, Rich Phelan (long time SGM member from AZ and then SD, worked in pro-life) was ordained as associate pastor. Older guy, caring, well regarded. Some time after, Eric Turbedsky was also brought on. Young guy, very earnest and zealous, also liked, but not many really thought in their heart of hearts that he was mature enough to be ready for prime time. He had a business painting houses. His wife was a brilliant, world-class PhD scientist who gave it up to stay home and raise babies. Later, Dan Wilson was added to pastoral staff, Great guy, good choice, former hippie, long-time Vineyard, well-proven, pastor’s heart, truly humble (not just ‘SGM-humble’).
Rich’s teenage son fell into some wayward behavior so Rich was removed after a probation period to turn it around. It was felt by TPTB that he had not been proactive enough at bringing his son back into line. Most of the church knew nothing about it until Shank showed up one Sunday morning to announce Rich was stepping down and that this had been a behind-the-scenes process for something like a year or more. Members were stunned and more than a little uneasy that their happy church could be upended without their knowledge. Rich Phelan submitted and put a nice face on it and stayed a long time, but it was extremely hurtful,of course.
Ironically, after their move to Frisco, TX, one of Craig Cabaniss’ teenage daughters got pregnant out of wedlock. It was announced in a family meeting, along with the report that many behind-the-scenes discussions had gone on with other pastors there, with leaders of SGM, and others outside of SGM (?), and it was decided that Craig could stay. Said daughter was 18 by then, Craig had done his best as a parent to address his daughter’s struggles, had offered to step down, etc. Church was embracing, daughter has since returned to the fold, child is adorable, all is well.
Back in San Diego, after the bombshell announcement that Craig C. was leaving to plant a church in TX (once again, a long behind the scenes process sprung on the members only after being decided), Mark Lauterbach was announced as the new senior pastor. He was a stranger to everyone except Craig (and possibly other key leaders -- who knows?) before then. Princeton grad, seminary grad, D.Min, former Presbyterian pastor with over 20 years’ in the ministry, had been drawn to SGM by the books and conferences, decided to switch, and went through SGM Pastors’ College. (!!!) After a while, the SD church launched a building project. Lots of protracted legal battles with city, made the news, major cost overruns. (SD has no areas zoned for churches, so every one has to jump through hoops to get ‘conditional use permits.’) Eric T. led the building project. Mark L. led the church. Dan did much of the counseling and tended a lot of the East County folk. (A big contingent of former Calvary Chapel, Vineyard, and some Baptist people had been driving a long way from East County to the rented school meeting place in North County, hoping for and having been told that they’d have something closer, but the building was even farther north (richer up there). As this building upheaval dragged on, the church was becoming more reformed and less ‘Calvary Chapel-ish.’ Some people found these blogs. A few began quietly leaving.
So, finances all messed up. Major cost overruns, 60K budget deficit.
Suddenly, Steve Shank swooped in and announced that Mark L. was being removed as senior pastor because, after a long behind-the-scenes review process, it had been determined that Mark lacked the gifting to be a senior pastor. (Yes, he said that.) Mark L was degifted and made associate pastor. The new senior pastor, effective immediately, was Eric Turbedsky. Mark would begin teaching Eric how to preach.
That was the last straw of being jerked around. Major push-back. People left in droves to any number of other churches. Church finances tanked even more.
Not too long after, Steve Shank showed up again. Well, guess what! He’d been ‘right’ about Eric T. being called to be a senior pastor. Just not there! It was a Paul and Barnabas situation! Apparently, God had seen fit to regift Mark L. to be senior pastor and now Eric T. was going to plant and lead a new church up in Orange County, CA.
So, that’s what happened. Eric T. (Turbo) leads a church in Irvine and has a blog, where his tag line is “Essentially Reformed with a Significant California Dimension”
Mark L. leads Grace Church San Diego. After the ridiculous shanking’ episodes, they had member meetings, committee, meetings, etc. Mark’s Presby background kicked in. They became perhaps the first SGM church to write their own constitution and bylaws, bring on lay pastors/elders, include more congregational involvement, etc. Still strongly elder-ruled, but with an expanded definition of elders and at least some congregational representation. Still strongly complementarian. Still SGM. I suspect their actions sparked the so-called ‘polity considerations’ that SGM leadership was supposedly having behind the scenes. They may become the model for new SGM polity.
Oh, and SGM will finally be planting a church in the East County portion of San Diego, to be led by Tab Trainor, formerly senior pastor in Oswego, IL.
There may be more, and my facts and timeline may not be 100% accurate, but that is how I understand it. It’s hard to know the truth of things in SGM because so much is shrouded in need-to-know secrecy and cloaked in double-speak and soft words.
August 3rd, 2012 at 10:18 am
Nick, there are plenty of young men who are masculine who were raised in SGM. (they just all had to leave SGM to exercise it.) And certinaly NOT all of the girls raised in large families are grace filled. If anything, I’d say lots of “outer appearance” is going on with the law behind.
August 3rd, 2012 at 11:00 am
Aidan,
Argus,
Here are the links to the San Diego story:
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/12/12/uh-oh-steve-shank-is-here/
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2008/12/08/another-good-one-bites-the-dust-more-from-my-in-box/#comments
August 3rd, 2012 at 11:24 am
Argus and SGMsingle, thanks so much for taking the time to write all this. It’s been very enlightening and helpful to me personally.
August 3rd, 2012 at 11:29 am
SGMSingle, thanks for the links.
BTW, all, I subscribe to the Recovering Grace blog by former Bill Gothard folks. Very well done and it has been freeing for me as one who went through (and dragged my family through) the Bill Gothard brand of legalism.
I am convinced that Bill Gothard’s false dogmas informed a LOT of what is wrong with SGM and other even scarier branches of the church, mainly via homeschooling circles. (I speak as a former long-time homeschooling parent.)
Anyway, their recent post was so apropos of SGM:
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/08/the-subtle-power-of-spiritual-abuse-chapter-8-revictimizing-victims-contd/
August 3rd, 2012 at 12:19 pm
Argus @ 10:17 -
The end has not been written. The beginning and middle are the same sad stories heard over and over again. I’ve been very surprised with the path of Craig Cabaniss.
August 3rd, 2012 at 1:06 pm
Well Done, Argus!
Mark L’s church plans and his blueprint for new polity has already made the rounds. It was studied by CLC and by Fairfax as they were/are writing their new polity.
It is the new face of a lot of SGM churches. Whether it will be adopted by SGM, only time will tell.
Did those guys down in KY actually HEAR and UNDERSTAND what was presented to them, or were they just giving lip service to the churches when they said you can present your opinions on polity to use if you can get it down on paper and ready to present in two weeks or less.
August 3rd, 2012 at 1:09 pm
@Argus #121 -- “Still SGM. I suspect their actions sparked the so-called ‘polity considerations’ that SGM leadership was supposedly having behind the scenes. They may become the model for new SGM polity.”
I just found this on the San Diego church site:
http://www.gcsandiego.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/leadership-at-grace-church-final.pdf
I thought it was very good. Though it didn’t address what kind of authority SGM might exercise in relation to member churches, it did make plain some elements of pastor/elder leadership that are not common within SGM, such as congregational affirmation of those who might serve as elders and the benefits of having uncompensated/lay elders. It looks like this document was uploaded to their site in May, 2011. I wonder if anyone from this church presented anything in the recent polity meetings. (I hope so.)
August 3rd, 2012 at 1:12 pm
Chesapeake and San Diego are the two most recent examples of Mark Deaver’s comment. He said,
When the elders are too demanding, too secretive, too untrustworthy people vote with their feet. They dont need a binding vote in all matters, they dont need to be counted as pro this or con that. They make a single but significant statement when they vote to move along to a different church.
That’s what happened at Chesapeake. That’s what happened at San Diego. That is what happened at Ashburn. That’s what happened at Midlothian. That’s what happened at Metro. The same thing happens again and again. You would think SGM would wise up to this.
August 3rd, 2012 at 1:26 pm
Oswald, Stunned, and all, perhaps to sum it up. Ken Mellinger was never a pastor at CovFel. Ken has been shown great favor in SGM. When Jared was in his rebellious stage for years (which Jared readily admits to) Ken did not have to “step down” nor was he obviously not degifted as other pastors were. Ken’s son (Jared) later becomes “senior” pastor at CovFel one of the more prestigious pastorates in SGM. Ken now serves on the SGM Board. One could guess that once CJ retires many years from now and Jared writes a book or two, Jared will take the reigns from CJ. Then it will be a Mellinger dynasty. Tim Shorey is a mystery to me. He shows up one day and from a distance I thought he was Don. Sometime later people are informed he is on sabbatical, really? Don’t know what the next steps are. As for Dave’s apology to two former pastors, one does not know what truly is in Dave’s heart and the motivation for such. But given that these two men were force out almost two decades ago and Dave now faces up to his own ongoing family problems, its seems uncanny timing that CovFel all of a sudden publicly changes its stance on pastoral leadership, Dave asks forgiveness of these two brothers and Dave get’s to stay in ministry. Explain all that! In the meantime many of the oldtimers are not buying any of it and have left or are in the process of leaving.
August 3rd, 2012 at 1:26 pm
Stunned #113 — Tim Shorey mentioned a condition that he suffers from, that causes tiredness. I won’t say what it is because I may have the disease name wrong; but he told his story when he preached few months ago.
Concerning the apology to Patton and Redrup, it’s on CD to hear. The pastors who walked through the thing with P and R and did ‘research’ were Jim Donohue and Andy Farmer. They said they got info/timelines, etc, from Marty M also, because he’s a good record keeper. (they could have asked Brent, he’s a good record keeper, too)I wondered why research was needed, too. It’s all on the CD for your listening pleasure. Maybe you know someone who could give you the CD.
August 3rd, 2012 at 2:01 pm
Me, too!
I have respected Craig. I have considered him a friend and one of the good guys. I don’t think he is operating from crass motives. He don’t think he is power-hungry or greedy. But I think he has made grievous errors in judgment.
He loves SGM. He has been part of it for a long time and has received much spiritual growth and blessing and goodness through SGM. SGM-think and SGM-speak have shaped and colored his worldview. He meets with the guys at the top and they are nice and talk a good game and pray together and he accepts that at face value. He usually gives people the benefit of the doubt and believes the best. He is so steeped in SGM that I doubt he perceives his bias.
Sometimes I feel his sense of loyalty has led him astray with SGM, and SGM has used him in a way. But, then again, he’s a grown man, and a smart one at that. He has been a party to some bad decisions.
BTW, someone earlier mentioned Pete Payne as having left VA, gone to Denver with Dave Bendinelli, and been among those either degifted or forced into retirement. Actually, Pete Payne and family, along with at least one other VA/Denver family (joined by marriage of offspring) moved to the Frisco, TX, church plant very early on, and the church was told that Pete P. would be associate pastor there before he even arrived and before most people had even met him.
The other related VA/Denver family, long-time SGMers, (related also by marriage of offspring to another family from SD who moved to Frisco w. the plant) were made care group leaders right off the bat.
Now Pete Payne’s son Jon is leading a new SGM church plant team from Phoenix to Austin, TX.
And another of Pete’s son was hired as the Frisco church administrator.
August 3rd, 2012 at 2:16 pm
Does anyone remember the name of the SGM Pastor/Apostle in FL that resigned years ago due to Chronic Fatigue or Fibromyalgia?
August 3rd, 2012 at 2:44 pm
I don’t know about FL, but I know former Apostle/A-Team/Leadership Team/Regional Board member (not sure what designation was in favor at the time) Paul Palmer resigned citing intractable health issues like CF or Fibro.
A couple of years later, he apologized for his part in the blackmail of Larry Tomczak, saying it was weighing on him, even though his primary sin was in not speaking out against it. (For instance, he opted not to participate in some threatening phone calls made to Tomczak.)
He was the first of the men involved to apologize, and it would be eight more years before anyone else apologized and even longer before any of this was made public.
August 3rd, 2012 at 4:00 pm
One of worst things about this incident was the conspiracy of top leaders to try and hide this sin rather than having it confessed.
August 3rd, 2012 at 4:14 pm
Oswald, thank you so much for letting me know about the CD! I really appreciate it.
August 3rd, 2012 at 4:20 pm
@Steve240 #135 -- I completely agree. The whole issue of CJ coercing Larry to leave without voicing his doctrinal differences should be clearly problematic in everyone’s mind even today.
1. CJ did coerce Larry (CJ even used the word coercion in describing it).
2. CJ ignored Larry’s attempts at reconciliation for how many years? (When it should have been CJ attempting reconciliation with Larry!!)
I think these facts are clearly established apart from anything in Brent’s documents and they should have been cause for grave concern by anyone involved in assessing CJ’s fitness for ministry. The events happened long ago, but CJ’s heart remained hardened against correction for a long, long time when the sin was seemingly obvious to everyone (except most of those who perpetrated it, I guess).
I continue to marvel at how this is downplayed in evaluating CJ’s continuing role in SGM.
August 3rd, 2012 at 6:47 pm
Yep…lots of “outer appearance” going on with the girls in my neck of the woods, too.
And unfortunately, LOTS of wimpy guys who interestingly come from controlling, wimpy daddies.
August 3rd, 2012 at 8:24 pm
Did’ja see the photo with the new post at Refuge?
LOL
August 3rd, 2012 at 8:29 pm
Refuge has a good post up:
http://sgmrefuge.com/2012/08/03/mickey-connolly-responds-to-brent/
As 5 Years said, nice picture. Too bad someone didn’t photoshop it to show Mickey bowing in obedience to Pope Mahaney.
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:40 pm
Forgive me if this is old news…You Tube links videos to blog comments?!?
http://www.reelseo.com/youtube-autogenerated-channels-search/
So here’s what we end up with…kinda funny seeing the whole collection.
http://www.youtube.com/blogs/sgmrefuge
http://www.youtube.com/blogs/sgmsurvivors
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:42 pm
Sopwith- It seems you spend a lot of time on you tube. ;)
August 3rd, 2012 at 11:25 pm
Stunned -
Has Harvey ever apologized or explained, in public, his treatment of Don Shorey and Joe McMullin?
August 4th, 2012 at 8:03 am
Nick, not that I know of. It made me really sad when we heard of Dave/Cov Fel apologize to the two who remained but not those who weren’t. Another tragic example of “if you’re not one of us, you don’t exist anymore”
August 4th, 2012 at 9:33 am
Unassimilated, You said: “#142 -- It seems you spend a lot of time on you tube.”
-srug-
Unassimilated, respectfully, you seemed to have missed the point. Others did not. Youtube is simply a vehicle of expression. A grand one. So are social networks. Humor is simply a vehicle of expression when tyranny and opression is present. And it is…in spades with The leaders of SGM, as everyone knows…
(sadface)
Let me “unpack” it for you in a nutshell:
C.J. Mahaney is now apparently untouchable. He apparently has outsmarted everyone. He has the approval of big names in American Christian community. If persued further he will simply hand the reigns to another, or merge his sole ownership non-profit with another, vote himself a sizable retirement package, and quietly walk away.
Speculation abounds.
C.J Mahaney knows that next year when the economy falters, the blogs will look stupid, and insensitive, issues with him will become small potatoes. Al_M. and Mark_D. know this also as does Page P. I suspect.
Mark Driscoll is just marking his time. (no pun intended)
When the economy drys up, and the forecasting says it will; so unless the blogs have a positive contribution, given the severity of the economic climate presented, many will simply vote with the absence of a “click”. The feet will follow. Individual SGM churches will increase their food banks and add to its assistance to the local communities they serve.
(Brent D would do well to start a community church. His assistance to the local community he could be serving would, I suspect, greatly benefit from his organizational skills. Time will tell.)
Many are loosing their faith in Christ because of poor examples, and spiritual abuse issues. The faltering U.S. economy will only tend to exacerbate these conditions for the American Christian churches. Yes, Mark Dever is correct, people will simply vote with their feet. When the economy falters, more and more churches will simply close their doors, home churches will rise up to fill the gap. This is common knowledge.What this means for the American Christian community remains to be seen.
-Hopeful-
Respectfully, Kris apparently has already demonstrated with her comment to Eagle that those that loose their faith will find NO comfort here @ SGM Survivors. Please explain. What happened to the “cool glass of water” to the soul in need, is beyond my comprehension.
“follow me, and I will make you fishers of men…”
-Jesus
“Covered In His Precious Blood”,
ATB (to all)
Sopy
August 4th, 2012 at 10:47 am
Sopwith --
Respectfully, what better “cool glass of water” could there be for Eagle besides my expression of sorrow that he has turned his back on Jesus, our only Living Water?
I’m grieved that Eagle has “lost his faith,” but that is not a passive thing. That is something that he has deliberately chosen for himself. Strangely enough, there are bunches of places in the Bible that do not speak of such a choice in a touchy-feely way. Many passages in scripture would seem to indicate that we actually should not bend over backward to show how cool and tolerant and accepting we are when a person talks like that.
Sometimes I feel offended on God’s behalf that there are actually people out there who claim to have been believers but who now have the audacity and the nerve to sit back and shrug and say they are agnostic and no longer believe…and go around casually throwing out that fact as they comment on websites.
It’s not a “cool glass of water” to provide them the bandwidth for that. Seriously -- it’s not.
I know that Eagle has been seriously ill. If he meets his maker, he will be standing before the almighty living God. I believe that with every fiber of my being. I also believe that the picture of God given to us in the Bible ought to fill us with awe and wonder and the respect that would leave us on our faces, crying, “Woe is me.”
It’s not love, to sit back and be all casual and accepting of a person’s words of death, his declaration of disbelief…especially if it might be the last online interaction he has before having to come face to face with the God of the universe. How cool and loving is it for us to act like it’s OK and no big deal for someone to reject the love of God that was shown to us through Jesus’ death and resurrection?
Sometimes in our eagerness to prove our open-mindedness and demonstrate that Christians aren’t actually intolerant biggots, we act more like atheists than the self-proclaimed atheist. Do we believe in what God has said about Himself, or not?
If so, where is our respect for Him? Where is our sense of His greatness and His amazing goodness? Where is our sense of righteous indignation, that someone could have (supposedly) tasted that goodness and yet now calmly speak of rejecting it through his disbelief, tossing it out there in casual conversation like it’s nothing more than another descriptor of himself, as though he were telling us his ethnicity or his eye color?
Where is our truly loving concern for this person, if we are more concerned about having him feel accepted than we are concerned about the very real ultimate consequences of his willful unbelief?
August 4th, 2012 at 12:35 pm
With a nod to our pal Pastor Former (#59)…:Approve: and an apology that I am behind but I feel the need to add that at least one of the ‘de-gifted’ pastors in the sg system WAS a bully and a “lout” and deserved to get fired. I think Shank would have let him go on forever because he was essentially an unsophisticated version of the A-Team, except for the years of continual complaints interrupting shank’s life finally hitting the breaking point, when this little guy’s own leaders started calling.
Oh and yeah, he filed a complaint with AoR.
Kris, welcome back! And I respectfully thank you for pointing out the holiness of our awesome God and Lord who deserves our faith and our worship.
I join you in praying for Eagle’s life, both physically and spiritually.
August 4th, 2012 at 2:48 pm
“Loving Concern…”
*
Kris,
Hey,
“Where is our truly loving concern for this person”, Eagle?
hmmm…
Dee, the famed “blog queen” of the Wartburg Watch
…and who has been a kind friend to me, traveled four and a half hours to see that his (Eagle’s) wounds were mended, his parched soul refreshed. Quite frankly, his spirit was renewed as upon “Eagle’s wings”, if I may say so! Others came and visited Eagle also; others were just a call away, and said so.
Eagle came un-armed & un-pretentious here @Survivors in an effort to compliment you for your efforts. That’s it. He has been reading, as he said for some time, I think…
As I recall, the famed author and poet, Robert Louis Stevenson, was shunned by his Calvinist “Elder” father much of his life, because of his loss to agnosticism. It has been said by churchmen dear to Louis (RLS), that he spent the Autumn of his life reading the scriptures. Who is to say what became of his soul. But the church he helped to build, always had an open door and a open heart…
Forgive my illustrious friend Eagle, for his table manners, and his apparent lack of faith; I will carry him with my faith & prayers until he is on-the-mend.
Will you thus regard me favorably? I’ve washed my face and hands… I have… (grin)
Kris, Respectfully, I have asked the Lord to pay you a very special visit, He assures me that He has plenty of “cool water” to spare. Blessings & Thanks for your Kindness and your Prayers over the years, I am forever grateful. May our Lord fill you with His spirit to overflowing!
Le Seigneur peut enregistrer quelle que soit la langue parlée…
ATB
Sopy
August 4th, 2012 at 5:19 pm
Wow, Sopwith -
I guess I have provided you with an opportunity to experience the same sort of righteous indignation that I feel when someone is repeatedly compelled to mention how they used to be a Christian but are now an agnostic.
Good times.
:D
August 4th, 2012 at 8:36 pm
“What Excites Our Righteous Indignation?”
Kris,
I sense (a tinge) i. e. some manner of frustration here on your part…and I empathize…
The nearest opposite to pity in classical greek is what is called righteous indignation; since pity is defined as the feeling of pain at undeserved misfortunes; righteous indignation is defined typically as a reactive emotion of anger over perceived mistreatment, insult, or malice. It is akin to what is called the sense of injustice. In some Christian doctrines, righteous indignation is considered the only form of anger which is not sinful, e.g., when Jesus drove the money lenders out of the temple. (Gospel of Matthew 21)
“Righteous” means acting in accord with divine or moral law or free from guilt or sin. It may also refer to a morally right or justifiable decision or action or to an action which arises from an outraged sense of justice or morality.
“Indignation” is anger aroused by something unjust, mean, or unworthy. The Dictionary describes indignation as a “feeling involving anger mingled with contempt or disgust”.
Sure, “anger is not always sinful”. For example, Jesus when he was “angry with the Pharisees for the hardness of their hearts”; yet as I recall, He had a great compassion for them.
Should Christians aim to … be a bit circumspect and vigilant in restraining their sense of justice within the bounds of reason, meekness, piety, and christian charity?
Both of these feelings (righteous indignation and pity) are indicative of good character. Yes.
But is it not our duty to sympathise with unmerited misfortune and pity it, as it is to feel indignant at the possibility of unmerited prosperity?
What happens if injustices of nature and fortune, possibly as well as those inflicted by man mixed in, are not in conformity with his deserts; i.e. is unjust? Even though we might ascribe, assign, or render them as a due from our perspective or point of view?
History reminds us that each man has his breaking point. The Apostle Peter did in the courtyard, as told in the New Testament book of Acts. What was Jesus’s response to a direct denial “I know not the man”by the very man Jesus had ate & and drank with, discipling him for 3 1/2 years. Heck, they even walked on the water together, did the not?
Has Eagle rejected Jesus? Or has he rejected as hypocritical, i.e. the Christianity he has seen others modeling viewed now as sorta bogus?
[Example] Hey, I am the senior pastor of one of the largest churches in the continental United States and I did your sixteen year old daughter a few years ago -- hey I ‘m sorry…, kinda thing…(remember that true story?)
hypocritical Christian behavior? Over the top?
Then picture this: we have this man with an early upbringing in a Catholic household, who later embraced the Mormon faith…leaving that behind…even now searching for truth in a chaotic world.
(Now, I have left out the in-between but you can see the progression of my thoughts.)
Which would you prefer, pity or righteous indignation if you were in his shoes.
*Now take the average IQ of a composite SGM number and double it. That’s Eagle.
See the picture?
I am surprised he came at all?!?
Righteous indignation?
…how about justice with a fair sense of proportion?
Maybe his complaints have arisen out of the undue apportionment of authority and power welded by the churches he has been in attendance; the abuse thereof not withstanding?
Has this man been deprived of a possession?
or has he lost a possession?
Or is it a case of deprivation, of that which grows, decays and come to nothing?
What becomes of the man who misfortune gives drink from a well much polluted? Does he not wither and expire -his hand too weak to drink from a pure source?
Are these the makings of things in appearance, most pitiable?
Has not the Father given Christ Jesus, His Son, to rescue or “redeem” people from sin, and grant them all the privileges of adoption into the family of God? (Gal. 4:4–7). From my ‘cheap seat’, no-one deserves that, which is why receiving Christ’s new life and the rights therein is truly a gift.
Therefore it stands to reason that if as believers, we have received these treasures from God, that we ought to let others know that the same opportunity is available to them?
Try, try, try, try….again?
“I have prayed for you, Peter, that your faith fails not…”
-Jesus
ATB
Sopy
___
Notes: Academic resource(s) : Multiple & adapted. (Used by permission.)