From Brent Detwiler’s site comes the following (you can access his original, which contains his commentary on the separation, here):
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The following joint statement was sent out yesterday to all the SGM pastors.
July 24, 2012
A Joint Statement: Redeemer Church of Charlottesville, VA and Sovereign Grace Ministries
We want to let you know that Redeemer Church of Charlottesville has decided to end their association with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Though saddened by this news, we are supportive of their decision. We are very grateful for the humble and careful way they have worked through this and the peaceable and respectful way we have been able to discuss our differences. But mostly, we are grateful for the long relationship we have had with Keith Breault. He continues to be a man whom we love and respect. We wish him, his leadership team, and Redeemer Church great blessings and success in the future. Though separating in formal association, we are not separated in mutual affection, mutual respect, and mutual passion to see God glorified through gospel-centered local churches.
Below is a letter from Keith explaining this separation from their perspective.
##
I’m writing on behalf of Redeemer Church of Charlottesville to inform you that on July 9th we separated from SGM.
As you can imagine, this decision was difficult for every member of our leadership team and for many in our church — who have a long history with SGM. We have enjoyed a rich partnership with SGM and thank God for the ways in which we have been trained, strengthened and fed through this wonderful group of believers. The relationships we’ve forged within SGM over the years are some of the dearest we possess, and we hope changing our affiliation won’t alter the deep fellowship God has wrought and nurtured.
Over the past year, we have been watching events unfold while simultaneously planting this new church in Charlottesville. Naturally, we have been evaluating SGM’s leadership in light of how it corresponds with our own priorities and values. “Consistent divergence” describes the dynamic between SGM’s leadership and our own instincts and convictions. We love the people of SGM and we love the leaders of SGM, but differences in some key areas make peaceful departure our best option.
This decision and its rationale were expressed in detail to SGM by letter on July 9, with our commitment to uphold respect and goodwill. In phone calls the following day with C.J. Mahaney, Dave Harvey, and Mickey Connolly — and a conference call Thursday between Mickey and our leadership team — we exchanged expressions of mutual encouragement and respect for our varied perspectives. We also exchanged commitments to conduct this transition peaceably, with the Gospel in mind, wishing each other maximum joy and fruitfulness as we all continue to follow Jesus.
Thank you for your friendship and support throughout our years of SGM partnership. We invite your prayers as we continue spreading the Gospel in Charlottesville.
With our brotherly love, in Christ
Keith Breault
July 25th, 2012 at 4:06 pm
Thanks Kris for the update.
It is interesting that the Charlotesville SGM Church would be the first church to leave SGM. As I understand it is a new church plant. It is a shame they aren’t giving any real specifics as to why they are leaving.
I hope other churches leaving are more specific. That is that they point out the sin and hypocrisy.
July 25th, 2012 at 4:15 pm
For readers who aren’t aware of who Keith Breault is, SGM posted an interview with him last year on the Plant & Build blog:
Part 1: http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Church-planter-interview-Keith-Breault-Charlottesville-VA-part-1.aspx
Part 2: http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Church-planter-interview-Keith-Breault-Charlottesville-VA-part-2.aspx
Given the tendency for things like this to disappear in SGM-land, I’ve personally printed and saved these as PDF documents.
July 25th, 2012 at 4:25 pm
( last thread):
Nice post CoBro.
Kris 243…excellent.
Regarding Brent’s commentary linked above, I don’t think we should criticize RCC for their silence. There is something to be said sometimes for not muddying the water:
“Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet?”
(Ezek 34)
Those of us who have our eyes opened and get out and start drinking clear water and feeding in good pasture don’t always need to go back and muddy the water where others still drink.
Good SGMers listened to the leaders, they swallowed the report of the professionals about the evil blogs, they won’t gossip and slander, and will agree that looking at porn is better than looking at anything Brent writes. Good Gospel Coalition leaders listened to the panel, to Dever, to Mohler, and all is well with SGM.
I say leave them alone now and don’t muddy their water. If God decides to open their eyes, they will end up going through terrible pain and injustice, same as most of us did, and then they’ll come out. In the meantime, they will not listen to anything negative, and certainly not to KB or RCC.
July 25th, 2012 at 4:41 pm
Was anybody reading here at the Chesapeake family meeting the other night? What occurred there is relevant to Keith Breault. I will leave a description to someone who was actually there. I was not. But the people in Keith’s church plant deserve to hear about it.
July 25th, 2012 at 4:43 pm
“The relationships we’ve forged within SGM over the years are some of the dearest we possess, and we hope changing our affiliation won’t alter the deep fellowship God has wrought and nurtured.”
If the past is any indication of the future, those relationships will absolutely change. *cynicism wrought from “friends” completely disappearing overnight*
July 25th, 2012 at 6:00 pm
What bugs me about the statement is that it does not serve SGM leaders nor the remainder of SG churches to REALLY tell the world why they are leaving. It doesn’t serve the Kingdom of God. Mahaney, Harvey, Connolley and company MUST BE CALLED TO REPENT!!! This letter doesn’t do that at all. It’s another “Josh Harris fluffy letter” that is full of hot air, fake love and no substance.
I don’t want it aired out in public for the sake of hearing it! I want it detailed very clearly and loudly why they left so that SGM leaders can be called on the carpet for what they are and what they have done against the Lord and His children … So that they can REPENT!!!
July 25th, 2012 at 7:50 pm
Aaaarrrrrgh! The SGM speak that obfuscates and creates an incidious smokescreen around reality. This persistent use of preening language among the leadership does as much as anything else associated with SGM to convince me of its cultic nature. The fear among leadership to just simply declare what is true, without elaboration, is staggering. Frankly, I cannot see how any church can break free of SGM’s pernicious influence if they refuse to name that which causes them concern. Ultimately, this is another example of an authoritarian character which does not see the need for accountability for leadership to those that they lead. It is demeaning to the rank and file membership of the congregation--and would make me wonder, always, what else are they holding back, whether at extra-local or local leadership level.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:55 pm
I am gratified to see the first SGM church make a break.
I Googled “church leaves a denomination” and 10,700,000 stories came up. So, Chesapeake is in good company.
However, each of those stories went into a LOT more detail about the cause for separation. I didn’t notice any mention of “Consistent divergence” but, I did wonder if any more SGM churches will use that terminology or if they will reveal more specificity, than Chesapeake? I see no reason why they can’t make it a little more plain without ‘muddying the waters.’
Come on guys, call a spade a spade. Show a little more transparency!
July 25th, 2012 at 8:03 pm
These letters are the finest examples of the flowery, sickening sweet and flattering language that is expected from SGM. But the form should not over-shadow the substance. This is a monumental event for SGM. We can debate whether RCC’s letter should have detailed SGM’s specific failings, but they should be applauded for taking this step. Having blazed the trail, RCC has made it easier for others to follow. A major exodus could be around the corner. For all the disappointment of the AoR report, it is clearly not the final edict on the state of SGM. Actions speak louder than words.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:44 pm
Being a new church plant, I’m sure there was finances given to the Charlottesville Church by SGM. Forgiveness of debt may have played a part in the flowery mutual love/break up letter…
July 25th, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Can anyone tell me what involvement Keith Breault had with what happened with the one woman (“Esther”???) at SGM Chesapeake. As I recall, this was the reported case where the pastors were threatening discipline to this woman if she left her abuse husband. This is where a smal number of couples in SGM Chesapeake supported this poor woman going against leadership.
Was Keith involed in that fiasco?
July 25th, 2012 at 8:55 pm
Diego, they probably did but I do know that RCC was one of the churches that came to CLC seeking financial assistance for their church plant.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:59 pm
Diego said:
That possibility certainly crossed my mind. It certainly wouldn’t suprise me if SGM used this tactic. I wonder if anyone knows what the agreement says for a church plant?
July 25th, 2012 at 9:24 pm
Steve- good question. If you look at the first link up above in #2, he was at Ches for a while…she mentions a new pastor in 2008 so maybe he left at that point?.
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/
She does say early on in her story that later the pastors expressed repentance, so one can only hope they learned a good lesson by this and have changed:
“My father asked them in the second meeting what the consequence would be for me if I didn’t agree to this idea of letting my husband come home, and that is when I was told that it would be church discipline. I was totally blown away. Here I was the one being abused and uncared for, and I was now being threatened with church discipline.”
July 25th, 2012 at 10:08 pm
I can see both sides of the approach Redeemer Church took. In one way, it’s true (as 5years says in comment #3) that there’s no need to get into all the negative details. But in another way, I think I kind of agree with Rick’s #7:
The way SGM leaders continuously pump one another up with flattery and bend over backward to praise each other even in the midst of what have to be major disagreements just drives me crazy! What is wrong with plain talk?
Tell it like it is, SGM leaders. Reallly -- just tell it like it is.
You don’t necessarily have to go into all the gory details. But there’s no reason, either, to try to portray things as so much more lovey-dovey than they could ever possibly truly be.
July 25th, 2012 at 10:38 pm
#8 ..meant to say Charlottesville
July 25th, 2012 at 11:54 pm
Once again someone exits a burning house without yelling fire and without telling anyone else where the fire is located…
July 26th, 2012 at 1:05 am
#17 Exactly. :Approve:
July 26th, 2012 at 7:53 am
“The SGM speak that obfuscates and creates an insidious smokescreen around reality. This persistent use of preening language among the leadership does as much as anything else associated with SGM to convince me of its cultic nature. The fear among leadership to just simply declare what is true, without elaboration, is staggering. Frankly, I cannot see how any church can break free of SGM’s pernicious influence if they refuse to name that which causes them concern.”
The leadership in these churches is remarkably passive when dealing with their fellow elites, while they are overbearing when dealing with those they consider less important on the hierarchical scale.
Preening language, indeed. Nice caption describing the reality, Rick.
July 26th, 2012 at 8:24 am
The Sovereign Grace/SGM tendency towards secrecy at the top has to stop. It filters down to the bottom and many loyal members (who know little of the workings, or even want to, due to busy lives) fear to be disloyal and so toe the line, even when disquieted by alarming Sovereign Grace & SGM news. When information is released, it is either too little too late, or it is often flowery and an obvious smokescreen for deeper, wider issues and problems. Who do they think they are fooling? In a healthy family, the details are shared, discussed at length, wept over and maybe prayed about. Pastors consistently say little to nothing on the big Sovereign Grace & SGM issues. They use generic language to cover-up embarassing details, or to keep members in the dark, as though they don’t trust them with the “family” crises. This week a priest was sentenced to significant jail time for covering things up related to abuse. Hopefully Sovereign Grace pastors (and all elders/pastors) have learned to report any incident to the authorities, because the history of camouflage and covering sins has always benefited the perpetrators. It is often about avoiding lawsuits and saving face. It is Sin.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0725/us-clergyman-charged-over-child-abuse-cover-up.html
July 26th, 2012 at 8:59 am
LetUsReason #20: “In a healthy family, the details are shared, discussed at length, wept over and maybe prayed about”.
Actually, in a healthy Christian family, after details being shared, prayer comes first, and there is no ‘maybe’ about it. To put prayer first indicates an authentic belief that God cares for us and is always listening. There’s no other place to go.
July 26th, 2012 at 9:09 am
WOOT! WOOT! that the first church has left. Reason for celebration, I dare say. May God bless them with increasing light and freedom in Christ.
“In a healthy family, the details are shared, discussed at length, wept over and maybe prayed about.” (@#20)
In the SGM family, there is a big white elephant in the living room that everyone CHOOSES to walk happily around and ignore.
July 26th, 2012 at 9:23 am
“Let Us Reason” said,
This is a great summary.
Like I said, what is wrong with just telling it like it is?
I’ve been thinking about the flowery language that even now characterizes so many (if not all) of SGM’s communications. There’s been such an obvious lack of straight talk. SGM leaders seem to have a compulsion to affirm each other and the SGM system, always, at all times. Even the most unpleasant truths are conveyed disguised by flattery and complimentary statements about how great everything is.
Some of that is not necessarily wrong. It’s not wrong to affirm the good in a person or a situation even as you have to say something negative. But…always? And in such a way where your listeners know (if they allow themselves to think about it) that everything you’re saying could not possibly all be true all at the same time? I think at that point, the SGM communication style descends into insincere spin. Often it is self-serving (or organization-serving) spin.
Think back to Dave Harvey’s announcement of Josh Harris’ departure from SGM’s board. Remember how he had to assure everyone that Josh and the board were still in agreement over “99% of the issues”?
99%?
Really?
So a mere 1% difference of opinion is enough to make you to step down from an important leadership role?
That utterly defies believability. Yet something compelled Dave Harvey to make such an exaggeration to SGMers at a time when honesty from leadership had never been more important. Probably he never even realized how stupid such a statement sounded, he was so concerned about protecting an image of SGM leadership as completely peaceful and unified.
(Or, of course, the possibility exists that this just shows SGM’s twisted ideas about what constitutes unity -- to where, if anyone expressed even the slightest divergence from the party line, they were out.)
I was also reminded of the old video clip of Brent from the weekend-long worship-fest that marked CJ’s retirement as CLC’s senior pastor. When you read Brent’s documents, it becomes clear that by that point, he had been having major concerns about CJ’s leadership for years and had already been trying to confront CJ for a long time. Yet nobody in the audience would have had the slightest inkling of what was really going on.
Awhile back, I even asked Brent about that moment -- what had driven him to get up in front of that group and wax eloquent about (what came across as) CJ’s perfection?
He said (and I’m not quoting verbatim, this is from memory) that he had been under pressure from both CJ and Carolyn to give that speech…and that they actually were both mad at him for not saying more.
If this is what happened among the highest levels of leadership, SGM’s problem with hiding the truth behind flattery is something pretty deeply embedded within the leadership culture. It pretty much tells us that we cannot take anything these guys say at face value. They very well may be going on and on about how wonderful the organization is, and how unified, and how fabulous, even as the truth is that they really believe it’s rotten to the core.
Something way deep within these guys, trained into them from the earliest moments when they were first singled out for leadership, drives them to suck up to each other, even in the midst of huge divisions, big problems, and corruption.
July 26th, 2012 at 9:39 am
You know, I’ve asked this before, but it doesn’t hurt to ask it again -- why would any church want to be associated with Sovereign Grace Ministries in the first place?
Many SGM defenders have come around here and assured us that their “local” SGM churches are completely independent, that SGM Corporate has no jurisdiction over what their churches do.
There’s the Pastors College training…but now, with the move to Louisville, what’s even the point of the PC? Why not just go to SBTS and get a real degree that will be recognized as legitimate by a much broader swath of Christianity?
There’s CJ’s leadership…but in many ways, despite SGM’s best efforts and the AoR report they paid for, CJ’s image has some tarnish now. Clueless people or people only peripherally aware of SGM’s issues may still find CJ likeable…but certainly, just as many people no longer take his Angry Clown style at face value and have dug deeper to discover the guy has no real accountability within his organization and does not practice what he has always preached, with respect to submission to authority and commitment to one’s local church.
There’s SGM’s music…I suppose…
There’s the whole “Reformed & Charismatic” thing…but you can have that without necessarily having to buy into a tainted organization that continues to portray itself and its current circumstances dishonestly…
I really don’t understand what there is about the SGM organization that is worth it. What are the benefits for member churches? What do they get out of the deal?
Access to training from SGM headquarters? If Andy Farmer’s The Pastor and the Counseling Process is any indication, the training they offer pastors is substandard at best.
It’s really a mystery to me, why any church would want to continue the association. If you’re truly independent (as people are supposed to believe) and truly locally owned and operated, why do you need SGM?
July 26th, 2012 at 9:41 am
For SGM, the flattery and whitewashing upon separation is just more of the status quo. For the departing pastors who decide to play it that way, it is a troubling sign that nothing is really changing or is going to change. For a pastors to acknowledge that they have now seen the true state of affairs and are moving into a better place, would consequently express admission that they had previously either been unaware of the truth, unwilling to accept the truth, or willing participants in the problems; and that moving to a better place implies they’re leaving a worse one. All of that would require even the slightest bit of . . . humility. And I think most of them fear it would open a floodgate of having to take responsibility for a lot of past tragedy. So, expect to hear a new spin on the “we could have done better.” Now, it’s “we’re going to do differently.” There might be some regret for the past expressed, but there will probably be little ownership taken.
July 26th, 2012 at 10:22 am
It’s disturbing that Charlotte didn’t come out with the truth, but just some fluffy statement. To me, this shows that the Charlotte church will just continue in it’s SGM like ways (i.e. control, control, control. patriarchy, home school or the fires of hell, and the same calvinista theology for a start.) My analysis is that they decided that remaining connected to CJ as part of CJ’s movement would be detrimental to the Charlotte organization.
July 26th, 2012 at 11:02 am
I do wonder what it’s like to plant an SGM church right now. Imagine you have people visiting the church who are unfamiliar with SGM. They go home and Google “sovereign grace ministries” and amid the links to official SGM web pages are links to SGM Survivors (3rd link for me) and SGM Refuge (8th link for me). You’ve got to think follow-ups with visitors require the pastors to answer a lot of questions (or maybe people don’t tend to be concerned if they don’t see an immediate cause for concern).
While I wish they had elaborated a bit on their reasoning, their communication seems to have been directed at other SGM pastors and not the general public. Certainly, other SGM pastors have a pretty good handle on the issues, especially since they made the break before any new polity had been presented -- in other words, they might as well have said, “This is not about polity!”
Is it necessary for them to elaborate further? If I’m a few months into planting a new church, I probably don’t have the time or desire to enter into a larger battle. I’d rather walk away and focus on the church plant. However, if I were a member of the church, I’d like to hear the specifics -- exactly why are we separating from the group that helped us get started? Maybe there’s an RCC member on the board who can elaborate a bit on what they have or have not heard.
I do wish they could drop all the flattery. It ends up coming across as double-speak and empty words.
“We really think SGM is wonderful, it’s just not for us anymore.”
“They’re really worthy of all our love and respect -- we just don’t want to serve under them any longer.”
“We think their leadership is lacking and moving in the wrong direction, but they’re still great guys and we commend them to the church at large.”
July 26th, 2012 at 11:29 am
Quote: “If you’re truly independent (as people are supposed to believe) and truly locally owned and operated, why do you need SGM?”
I’m just guessing, but it seems to me that most of the pastors of the local churches are “Yes Men” and as such, they tend not to be the strong leaders they are perceived to be. In many ways the local pastors are followers just as much as their congregants are. It’s probably scary for some of these pastors to leave the mother ship and venture out on their own, especially since their ministerial training is scant.
And yes, then it’s harder for them to kick the can up the hierarchy chain when people ask questions.
One thing’s for sure: Sticking with the franchise is creating local problems for some of these pastors. It’s just not discussed out in the open.
Can anyone share how these local churches benefit financially from connection with the SGM brand?
July 26th, 2012 at 11:33 am
This is a GREAT restaurant. I wont eat here but YOU certainly can.
This was a great movie. I wont watch it again but YOU can.
They were a great moving company. I wont use them again but YOU can.
He is a great mechanic. I wont take my car to him again, but YOU can.
He is a fine lawyer. I wouldnt trust him with my affairs, but YOU can.
She was a super babysitter. I wont leave my kids with her again but YOU can.
That doctor did a great job. I wouldn’t go to him again, but YOU can.
That florist has excellent flowers. I wouldn’t use them again but YOU can.
They are a great school. I wouldnt go back but YOU can.
He was an excellent computer repairman. I wont call him again but YOU can.
She/He was a fine date. I wouldn’t go out with her/him again, but YOU can.
That’s a great blog. I wouldn’t post or read there again, but YOU can.
It’s a fine cemetery. I wouldn’t be buried there but YOU can.
July 26th, 2012 at 11:37 am
Freedom #26 -- I have to correct you. It’s not the Charlotte, NC church (CrossWay Community). It’s the Charlottesville, VA church (Redeemer). Big difference but easy to confuse the cities. It happens all the time. People confuse Charlotte, Charlottesville, and Charleston.
July 26th, 2012 at 11:56 am
Kris #23 says: “Like I said, what is wrong with just telling it how it is?”
It would be so refreshing to hear things told how they are!
They have a well-used prophecy mike, but they usually don’t speak (or sing!) like prophets. True prophets speak plain and simple truth, because the Lord has sent them to address a concern, which he always calls “Sin”, but SGM would perhaps call that sin, ‘an error in judgement’ or ‘a slight miscalculation’, or some other flowery watering down of the Truth. They might couch their words out of vanity, pride or especially to avoid being sued. Even admitting fault from the pulpit can be a power play using false huminity. CJ is a master of this and he has trained many young, perhaps impressionable and “in need of a ministry” men often with very young families, during a short, intense hiccup they call Pastor’s College. They may be godly, but they think they need CJ, and then CJ can become a god, a real idol, to them. How many dropped out in protest?
Oswald #21 Ah, there’s the key word: ‘healthy CHRISTIAN family’… in my experience many families try to fix problems in their own strength even within the church, which is why I carefully used the word ‘maybe’. Also I was including all families, Christian and secular, who often try really hard to understand an issue and work it out as wisely as they can…. for various reasons they may never go to church, but they share deeply, discuss at length, weep real tears of sadness and dismay and often admit to a belief in God and the importance of prayer in their life. But they only set foot in a church for weddings and funerals.
July 26th, 2012 at 12:08 pm
@Kris #24 -- “It’s really a mystery to me, why any church would want to continue the association. If you’re truly independent (as people are supposed to believe) and truly locally owned and operated, why do you need SGM?”
Here’s where I think there’s perceived benefit:
Prestige. CJ is a national speaker and hangs with other big-name guys. He’s recognizable as an evangelical leader. Because SGM is relatively small, it’s easy to connect CJ’s prestige with your local church. It gives you instant credibility and respect among other local Reformed pastors and those who follow “the Reformed scene”.
Knowledge. CJ has key connections with other well-known Reformed leaders. All the knowledge he gains from those leaders -- he’s humble and teachable, you know -- he brings back into SGM. It gets passed around informally, but CJ also brings in these national speakers for SGM conferences.
Power. SGM is young and growing. If you’re a young church-planting-minded pastor, you have the opportunity to grow your own church to the point where it can plant other churches. Eventually, your leadership could position you as a regional leader or possibly even as a full-fledged apostle. You’ll carry influence over not just one church, but several or even all SGM churches.
I think you’ll notice these are all benefits enjoyed by the senior pastor of the local congregation. Nothing to admit to others, but if SGM’s doctrine of sin is accurate -- if our hearts are truly idol factories -- no SGM pastor should deny their flirtation with the prestige, knowledge, and power they can receive within SGM. What other denomination can offer such potential? If I’m independent I probably stay right where I am or move to an equally obscure pastoral role at some other church.
If you’ve gone through the SGM system, you’ve probably received praise throughout the process that at least keeps this dream alive. Haven’t you been introduced to churches in the SGM way?
“John is one of the most astute students we’ve seen come through the PC. His grasp of Scripture is truly astounding.”
“Tom has demonstrated maturity in his faith that has been instructive to me on numerous occasions.”
“I can’t think of anyone else that would be better suited and better qualified for this pastoral position than Mark.”
You can’t tell me a young pastor doesn’t hear all of this and think he’s possibly on the fast track to greater leadership responsibility. Leaving would be hard.
Now, how do I personally benefit from my church being connected to SGM? I used to think there was safety in the commonly held doctrines and the practice of church discipline to maintain consistency across the churches. The PC would help mold churches with common beliefs and practices. I’d experience “church done right” with pastors who demonstrated humble leadership. Ah, well…now I know.
July 26th, 2012 at 12:26 pm
More Commentary about Redeemer, Ch’ville found on SGMNation blog:
http://sgmnation.wordpress.com/
July 26th, 2012 at 1:08 pm
“Think back to Dave Harvey’s announcement of Josh Harris’ departure from SGM’s board. Remember how he had to assure everyone that Josh and the board were still in agreement over “99% of the issues”?
99%?
Really?
So a mere 1% difference of opinion is enough to make you to step down from an important leadership role?”
———————————-
Along with this would have to be the belief that this 1% of disagreement was what caused CJ to leave CLC, be at odds with all the pastors there, move his home to KY, encourage all of his family (including his children’s families) to leave CLC for KY, move SGM to KY, and move the PC to KY??
WOW -- all over 1%! I guess the absurdity of the 1% is why this then became “it’s cheaper in KY and, REALLY, we have been considering this for some time.” Do people really buy this stuff?
July 26th, 2012 at 1:12 pm
Bridget,
Do you realize that 1% of the world’s population owns 45% of the wealth? 1% is misleading … if I believe in the entire Bible but don’t believe that Jesus is God, that’s probably a 99.99999993% agreement rate, but I’ll miss the entire point of the Bible and end up in hell.
It’s not the 1% that’s the issue … the issue is what is the 1% about?
The 1% is CJ’s leadership … his on-going committment to serving his pride and arrogance … the double standard that exists with almost everything that he does.
July 26th, 2012 at 2:12 pm
Whirlwind…great post.
I keep wondering what it is that churches get from SGM. I mean really receive from SGM.
No direct communication unless you are in trouble.
No financial support if you are established, in fact you are probably sending money TO SGM.
No program help.
No preaching help.
Certainly no counseling help.
I just never saw what the connection is. Why were churches so loathe to strike out on their own? But thanks to your post, Whirlwind, I now see the connection.
Thanks.
July 26th, 2012 at 2:49 pm
“why would any church want to be associated with Sovereign Grace Ministries in the first place?”
In a word, opportunities.
-Pastors college for the up and coming leaders.
- For some a much easier route to music publishing than Nashville.
-At the mothership, lots of opportunities for writing, directing, producing.
-Relationship with the movement makes you a part of something larger, this
goes to greater purpose, safety in numbers, confirmations of Gods blessing
based on growth and acceptance.
-Hope of participating in the larger scheme of Gods plan, rather than just attending things.
-Training and support.
-The public image of SGM was spotless and sparkled for many many years prior to the truth coming out.
Now…Knowing what is now public about SGM and CJ, why would any church want to continue associating with SGM?
July 26th, 2012 at 3:00 pm
And so it begins. I’m sure all the pastors will inform members that the exodus has begun?
July 26th, 2012 at 3:11 pm
@Mr. Stretch #38 -- I don’t expect to hear about RCC departing, but at some point I figure an announcement will come. I can’t see CLC leaving without pastors communicating that to their churches. But if you wait too long, the questions become, “Wait, so you mean churches have gradually been leaving SGM for a couple months now?”
Though I expect more departures, I’ll be interested to see how many come prior to the polity announcements. Those departures will require more “interesting” responses from pastors still in SGM since they can’t yet point to polity differences as the main cause.
July 26th, 2012 at 3:11 pm
intheNickoftime Your #36
Hindsight is 20/20. I’m sure many churches regretted their affiliations after the fact,
only to have their pastors replace through the process of de-gifting.
July 26th, 2012 at 3:18 pm
SomewhereinTime -
Oh, I got it. The 1% that would cause such a split are possibly heresy (which it’s not) or CJ and Co., if you follow their logic.
As Kris pointed out, the statement that DH made about the differences being 1% is just not reality (a spin/a lie?) and has been proved by CJ’s actions.
July 26th, 2012 at 3:27 pm
Thinking about my post #32, it also becomes a little more apparent why it’s important to have CJ in some SGM leadership position. He’s central to the prestige and knowledge that are attractive within SGM. How special is the pastors’ conference if the speakers are all simply other SGM pastors? Would you rather have the hope of chatting with Mark Dever or Dave Harvey between sessions? David Powlison or John Loftness?
Without CJ’s connections, do you have the big names coming to speak? Does Jeff Purswell have the connections with these men to get on their calendar? Can Mickey Connolly get on the phone and say, “Hey, Lig, I was wondering if you were available to speak at our pastors’ conference this year?” Somehow, I don’t think those men get the same results.
July 26th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
Freedom #26 — I have to correct you. It’s not the Charlotte, NC church (CrossWay Community). It’s the Charlottesville, VA church (Redeemer). Big difference but easy to confuse the cities. It happens all the time. People confuse Charlotte, Charlottesville, and Charleston.
Yep, I just wrote the wrong city! and I live in Virginia!!!!
July 26th, 2012 at 4:21 pm
Has anyone heard an exact description of the 1% disagreement?
Only a few weeks after those comments by Dave Harvey, CJ presented a paper to Josh listing pages of disagreements. And this month they got together again to share with each other even more disagreements.
It seems to me that they represent a huge log rather, than a tiny splinter of a disagreement.
It also seems like the good people of CLC should be told the details of this snafu.
Wonder why Josh continues to comply with CJ’s request to hide those details?
July 26th, 2012 at 4:22 pm
to Kris #24 and “Why would any church (or believer for that matter) want to be asscoaited with SGM?”
I’ll take a shot at an answer that I hope to communicate understandably. I think the answer to this question was in a way on display since 1998 at Penn State, and in so many other current cultural disasters in our nations recent history. Some have used the phrase “Systemic or Systematic Bias”. I found this defintion:
“Systemic bias” and the older, more common expression “systematic bias” are often used to refer to the same thing; patterns of thinking and behavior that result in error; some users seek to draw a distinction between them, suggesting that systemic bias is most frequently associated with human systems, and related to favoritism.”
This kind of bias has been discussed here before, and I think it manifests itself in the case of SGM in a form of utter disbelief that CJ, Dave, and other leaders are erroneously considered not capable of failing. If you admit to yourself that CJ is capable of committing blackmail, then the whole house of the system that you have built your life around (for many long time members)begins to fall. That involves admitting that as an individual or as a church or a movement that you have allowed yourself to be deceived, something many people are unwilling to face. Whether it’s your church, your football coach, or your childrens teacher, not many people are willing to to tell it like it is when it comes to horrific, massive failure. Cause that would invole admitting that we as individuals have failed too. Sometimes, I think as in the case of Penn State the motivations of the people involved are purely selfish. They don’t want the great ride of their success (and if your a part of a mega-church that is a type of personal success) to be interrupted. So if a few members of whatever community represented have to be sacrificed and thrown under the bus so the prosperity keeps rollin’ in…well it’s all acceptable collateral damage…from the leaders to those in the pews (sorry, cushy high-backed linked-in chairs) well let’s just keep on truckin’…the crowd…and just because they are a Christian crowd doesn’t mean that they won’t show systemic bias or favoritism…they are sinful people like all of us…and they will gladly show favoritism so that their success isn’t tarnished.
They become willing to look the other way, or even very actively or agressively make excuses for massive failure, and to oppress those formerly considered friends or even family. The nation of Israel repeatedly did it to the prophets in the OT. They refused to see the tsunami of God’s judgments coming their way, and killed the prophets, and ultimately for the same reason killed Jesus. Jesus threatened the leaders prestigious positions…and He threatened to take away the benefits of those who curried the leaders favor. They were willing to minimize and dismiss all the miraculous things Jesus did to keep their cushy jobs and all the cultural perks that came with it. Sound familiar? “What is truth?” It’s inconvenient is what it is…it’s at least that…for these kinds of men and women…
And before anyone reading accuses me of anti-semitism…please stop…I am well aware that the nation of Israel has no corner on this kind of propensity for sin…they are a type of the entire human race…including me.
Having had to face the very disturbing fact that the leaders in my SGM church were not who I thought they were for more than a decade, well I remember how hard it was to even think about the prospect of leaving. I avoided it for two to three years. Like many PDI/SGM members, we were drawn to then PDI in part out of their emphasis on caring for disillusioned believers, and that we were. So to have to run that gaunlet again; the uncomfortable, even wacky side-ways sort-of conversations with leaders who respond with a “how dare you question us” B******t attitude…the progressive shunning…the eventual collapse of long-held and deeply valued relationships…the death of yet another dream…like many current SGM members…it wasn’t our first time tip-toeing thru the tulips with big-headed leaders who refused to see the huge log they were about to stumble over…cause we were just lowly “lay-people”…and they were the highly exalted grand poo-bahs and keepers of all truly Biblical wisdom that oh so few are ever admitted access to…I’m sorry but what B******t…simple, selfish, self-serving favoritism…cause we can’t be wrong…
So I can have some sympathy on current members or even some leaders who know that facing the truth will bring painful, protracted change. But the truth is still the truth, and knowing it still makes us free.
I pray for eyes to see better, and that those still in SGM, particularly their leaders, especially CJ and Dave…would be granted eyes to see…that they would be granted the courage to acknowledge and act appropriately on the truth…for the glory of the God they say they exist to serve. The alternative is disastrous…for them, their families, and their family of churches.
July 26th, 2012 at 5:14 pm
In answer to a question above, KB from Charlottesville was the sr pastor at the time in Chesapeake who threatened church discipline to women who separated from their husbands. Also, he was the sr. pastor involved with “Esther” and the one who was developing and implementing a doctrine stating that there is never any biblical reason for marital separation even in the case of spousal abuse.
July 26th, 2012 at 6:01 pm
KB is also the one who “degifted” one of the Chesapeake pastors and then got the who pastoral team to agree with him and then forced the “degifted” to give a bogus reason for himself stepping down.
There is a lot of SGM abusive baggage out there. It’s just not CJ…he’s only the ring leader.
What is up with Steve Shank? Who’s payroll is he on? SGM? the church in gilbert az where he is located? Very quiet on that front…
July 26th, 2012 at 6:28 pm
KB did publically apologize before he left Chesapeake.
July 26th, 2012 at 6:34 pm
I have thought all along that Steve Shank’s silence has been uncharacteristically prudent of him.
Maybe he’s been loyal behind the scenes.
Or maybe he just can’t afford to draw too much attention to himself. He has dirty hands in all this.
Steve Shank had to know that if C.J. falls, he falls.
Then again, if C.J. rises (which he has), sooner or later Shank would be on C.J.’s hit list if he spoke against him or showed anything less than 100% loyalty and support.
So, his best bet was to keep quiet publicly and serve C.J. privately.
Still maybe not good enough to satisfy C.J. eventually, if he bothers to remember and think about his old buddy Steve.
Shank’s only safety may be in the fact that they both have too much dirt on each other.
If C.J. booted him out, Shank may have plenty of WikiLeaks of his own to add to Detwiler’s docs.
July 26th, 2012 at 6:38 pm
Kris asked, “…why any church would want to continue the association. If you’re truly independent (as people are supposed to believe) and truly locally owned and operated, why do you need SGM?”
THEY DON’T NEED SGM.(Well, maybe in a co-dependent way, they do). Rather, SGM OWNS THEM.
If they put out $50,000 to send you to their PC, you are now their property. THEY OWN YOU. Period. And you, pastor, control the sheep. It’s genius.
It’s not what the churches get from SGM, it’s what SGM gets from the churches. Which is a lot of $$$.
July 26th, 2012 at 6:40 pm
Argus 49 I don’t know about Steve Shank but his son Travis and his family are in the process of moving back to the DC area.
July 26th, 2012 at 6:54 pm
MAK -
As far as I can tell, he rode off/was sent off to the West, found a rock, and took cover from the heat.
Maybe he will resurface when the weather cools. Heard not a word from his mouth. But, we have not heard a word from CJ’s mouth either. He has only addressed pastors once — to recant what was said at CLC. He is skilled at getting others to be his mouthpiece.
July 26th, 2012 at 7:24 pm
There’s an interesting testimony over at http://www.symboulosministries.org ……..kind of sounds like the ex-pastor’s from the Chesapeake church. It’s under the Testimonial link.
July 27th, 2012 at 6:33 am
Good for Redeemer Church.
It is my understanding that the SGM related church in/near Virginia Beach (Shank’s former place) has already decided to stop sending money to SGM. I imagine they will follow Redeemer Church and part company with SGM by the end of this year.
July 27th, 2012 at 7:56 am
Whirlwind #32/42 :Approve: Good posting!
July 27th, 2012 at 10:02 am
Anon back in #50 --
Kris asked, “…why any church would want to continue the association. If you’re truly independent (as people are supposed to believe) and truly locally owned and operated, why do you need SGM?”
Anon answered.
Now I start to see the connection…
The light bulb just went on.
It is like a Subway Franchise. When you start up you need all that they offer, but once you are up and running one might ask, “Why do I need them? I can buy all my food stuff, I do my own billing and my own promotion and my own hiring, etc. Why do I need them?
And the answer would be the benefit of the name connection. Some national advertising that helps the company owners but not necessarily the franchisee, branding, customer familiarity, etc.
And if I were to leave the franchise and just be Nick’s Sub Shop I would drop to just another sub shop on the strip and I wouldnt stand out as much which means I wouldn’t get as much business.
So now I understand why someone would want to be associated with SGM. And I understand why pastors would want to stay attached to the organization.
But the next step is is that Franchise had a reputation for abusing their franchisees and putting out questionable products and had poor to non-existent customer service, then I would obviously look to change franchises. And if I were looking to purchase a franchise I would have to do due diligence and research the organization I would join. Certainly SGM would stand out like a sore thumb now with all that exists on the internet about them.
Thanks Anon, I have a clearer picture of why so many churches/pastors are reluctant to leave the fold of SGM.
July 27th, 2012 at 10:11 am
Update on the women being sued by an Oregon pastor: Dismissed!!!
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/26/julie-anne-smith-prevails-against-her-former-church/
July 27th, 2012 at 10:34 am
Truth always prevails. http://www.bgbcsurvivors.blogspot.com/2012/07/judges-decision.html
July 27th, 2012 at 11:39 am
Argus 49 -- That is probably the first and only time that “prudent” has appeared in a sentence containing “Steve Shank”. Glad you qualified its usage with an apt adverb.
After all the “shankings” SS performed in the West (San Diego, San Francisco, Phoenix, Colorado, El Paso …) 3 to 4 years ago, Steve had to be the SG poster boy for buffoonery and incompetence.
While one might describe CJ as a “knave”, one might also describe Stevie No-Wonder as a “lout”. If Defender, Defended, or Irv are lurking here, they will probably shout, “Amen”.
Guy 58 -- Hello old friend …
Back to my nap,
Former SG Pastor
July 27th, 2012 at 11:43 am
Pardon. “Adverb” should have been “adjective”. Don’t want anybody to accuse me of attending the PC : )
Apologetically,
Former SG Pastor
July 27th, 2012 at 12:53 pm
Love ya FSGP!
July 27th, 2012 at 2:31 pm
FSGP — You were correct the first time. “Uncharacteristically” was used as an adverb.
This is the first I’ve heard about a Shanking in San Francisco. As far as I knew, Toby Kurth was the planting pastor and is still the senior pastor there. Did I miss something? If so, is there a link to that story somewhere?
I am painfully familiar with the infamous San Diego Shankings (plural) that forever proved that SGM “Apostles” have no flashing red Bat Phone from Heaven.
July 27th, 2012 at 2:33 pm
[Hit 'submit' too soon.]
Props for “knave” and “lout”, btw. Perfect descriptions!
I like Toby Kurth. Wondering what he will do in all this. I know he signed the Fairfax letter.
July 27th, 2012 at 3:15 pm
El Paso? I hadn’t heard about that one. Any details?
July 27th, 2012 at 3:47 pm
And is it the English speaking El Paso church or was it the Spanish speaking El Paso church?
July 28th, 2012 at 6:35 am
Argus #63…I was told by a pastor that Toby Kurth in San Fran will be leaving SGM. As the Florida churches start to leave, my guess is that he’ll be in the next wave also.
July 28th, 2012 at 10:58 am
MAK, I’m not a bit surprised. Toby’s a good guy. I wonder who else will join the Rebel Alliance.
July 28th, 2012 at 1:34 pm
Hey everybody…
Kris is out of town for a couple of weeks, so I have the house to myself. I say we have a party…who’s bringing what?
:Elvis:
July 28th, 2012 at 2:06 pm
I’ll bring the fireworks.
July 28th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Guy, Why don’t you do a deep cleaning in your house, finish those things on your honey-do list and then paint the outside of the house, or pressure wash it.
Mow the grass, clean all the flower beds and then have that party: )
After all that you’ll deserve it!
July 28th, 2012 at 6:29 pm
I don’t like that idea Old Timer….
July 28th, 2012 at 8:35 pm
“We at Covenant Life Church have the privilege of sharing our facility with Sovereign Grace Ministries. The ministry’s offices, recording studio, and Pastors College are housed in a dedicated space on the first floor of our facility, adjacent to Covenant Life School.”
Found this on Covenant Life’s website on their “About Us” page and then under “Our Family Of Churches”
I wonder when they are going to change this…?
July 28th, 2012 at 10:49 pm
Guy — I’ll bet old timer #70 is a woman. They know how to spoil all the fun.
July 28th, 2012 at 11:52 pm
Oswald ?!?!? Best be careful so you don’t dig yourself a deep hole to crawl out of!
July 29th, 2012 at 6:05 am
Oswald, bwahaha ha ha ha!
Now get to work. ;)
July 29th, 2012 at 6:50 am
Bridget/Stunned — My shovel is ready, but I think I have no worries.
Now, off to church.
July 29th, 2012 at 8:18 am
http://sgmrefuge.com/2012/07/29/chesapeake-july-22nd-family-meeting/#comments
Don’t miss this new post at Refuge
July 29th, 2012 at 9:40 am
Great new post at Refuge. We have confirmed this account as accurate. The exodus continues. We support and are praying for all the pastors and members who have left. We pray that out of this exodus comes a remnant…
July 29th, 2012 at 1:41 pm
I am not the least bit worried that God will not take care of his children who leave SGM churches. We have lived through two church splits and I see them now as God’s hand in directing and reorganizing his church.
July 29th, 2012 at 2:23 pm
Personally, I think there will be a huge move of God through this
July 29th, 2012 at 4:54 pm
Guy,
I thought the same thing. Could it be that men are beginning to listen to the Holy Spirit? We can only pray that this will continue across the entire “family of churches”.
I’m at wits end. I’m still in my SG church. A good church. However, I can’t stay much longer unless the leadership changes with SGM and repentence abounds.
July 29th, 2012 at 5:00 pm
Guy #80 -- There will be a big move of God if Sovereign Grace members stand wholly for God’s Truth which is found in the Bible and they begin to discern the Spirit’s still small voice and speak up and speak out. They will have to risk shunning, derision and outright anger towards them. It will not be easy.
July 29th, 2012 at 7:05 pm
Somewhere and Reason….yes. I believe that men and women are hitting thir knees in prayer. God is listening and will jump right in the middle of this. It’s not what men say, it’s what God says.
July 30th, 2012 at 3:23 pm
Greetings,
I was just reading The Wartburg Watch, and wanted to share that “Eagle;” who I believe also posts under that name here is very ill in the hospital in Northern Virginia. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/29/eagle-is-seriously-ill-please-pray-for-him/
Please go to the link and pray for him.
July 30th, 2012 at 8:54 pm
Thanks you for posting about Eagle, Phoenix!
July 30th, 2012 at 11:12 pm
Yes, thank you Phoenix!
July 31st, 2012 at 10:37 am
Phoenix,
Thank you for posting that!
July 31st, 2012 at 12:08 pm
This may be a little off the point but I think it is worthwhile reading in light of SGM’s emphasis on male and woman roles in the church. This is a blog written by pastor Jonathan Martin in response to the recent fiasco over the Wilson and Wilson post at the Gospel Coalition. Sorry I don’t know how to use block quotes.
http://pastorjonathanmartin.com/uncategorized/gender-race-and-pentecost-the-world-has-moved-on/
Below are some notes he wrote that I especially like:
“I am a Pentecostal by heritage and tradition, but culturally I am one of the bourgeois pastors whose day might seem to be coming, but in many ways has already passed. The whole white male, coffee-drinking, apple product-using, Coldplay-listening type. It is a very small world that we live in that feels deceitfully large. We have blogs, we write books, we talk about the most recent issue of Christianity Today. So it is easy to think we are the center of the universe.
“We did not notice that the world has already moved on. We didn’t notice that the wind of the Spirit left us, and that there is a new world coming in Latin America and Africa and Asia that rendered us inconsequential. We enjoyed our time in the mainstream well enough to forget that the move of God always comes from the margins.”
“The average Christian in the world right now is an African or Latin American female in her early 20’s. She doesn’t read our blogs and she doesn’t read Christianity Today. She doesn’t know or care who I am and she never will. The names Piper, Driscoll, Chan, Bell, Stanley, Warren—mean nothing to her. Like most Pentecostal women coming into the kingdom around the world, words like “complementarian” and “egalitarian” are not in her vocabulary, nor Calvinism and Arminianism. Unlike some of my brothers would lead you believe (where their lunch table is the only one that cares about Scripture and THE GOSPEL while anybody who believes differently from them in these tired conversations are flaming liberals), she takes the authority of the Bible very seriously.”
“She may well in end up leading a church one day where she preaches Jesus like a woman on fire and lays hands on the sick and watches God heal them, though this will surprise those Reformed colleagues who are sure all female church leaders have been trained by godless-Unitarian-lesbian-leftist-radical feminist-seminarians (she didn’t have access to seminary at all–unfortunately she has read the Acts of the Apostles). Who knew?”
The Holy Spirit is moving! Not in SGM but in other parts of the world empowering women everywhere and no one will be able to tell God how He should operate the body of Christ. My prayer is that God will move in a fresh way among the women in the church of America.
July 31st, 2012 at 4:21 pm
His Sheep -
I had read that and thought it was great! God is certainly not limited in how He may choose to bring people into His kingdom! I find that we, believers, often try to limit God.
July 31st, 2012 at 4:44 pm
His Sheep 88
I do think the church is changing faster than we are aware of, in many ways, including demographics.
That is probably why Mahaney, Purswell, Harvey and Kauflin accept invitations to speak and participate at the massive Por Su Causa conference, in Santo Domingo, each summer. Relating to pastors who serve tens of thousands of church members, in Latino countries will, over time, greatly extend SGM ministry.
I don’t know how many of those churches and pastors are Charismatic. But, I hardly think all of them are reformed. Maybe someone who speaks Spanish can check out their website and let us know more about their doctrine.
July 31st, 2012 at 4:53 pm
His Sheep -- Thanks! That was excellent!
July 31st, 2012 at 10:16 pm
His Sheep #88 — Thanks so much for sharing that. More to ponder as I pray and wait and watch and listen. How sweet it is to ponder, spending time with my Lord.
July 31st, 2012 at 10:24 pm
Argus #62. Would you mind elaborating on the “Shankings” in San Diego. I am curious about what you mean and would be grateful to know more. Thanks.
July 31st, 2012 at 11:54 pm
Any idea what is going to happen with the Covenant Life School? I know it will still go on, but aren’t the administrators strong CJ lovers?
August 1st, 2012 at 9:14 am
CLC and the CLC school will go on as usual.
There have been two classes of CJ lovers at CLC. Only the smallest group were kool-aid drinkers. Most of those have left already and moved over to Solid Rock. Many of those are making plans for Ky.
The CJ lovers that are still at CLC have an affection for CJ as a person, and they certainly enjoy his company and his preaching and interacting with them, but not to the point that the world will stop spinning if CJ were no longer in the picture. Most of those are the old guard, of which there are many at CLC.
But Josh does a great job and the church is really learning that they are more than a reflection of the senior pastor. The CJ lovers will certainly miss CJ and will always look back on the good ‘ol days but they are committed to CLC and CJ is no longer a part of CLC. They may harbor fond memories of CJ and regret all the problems that surfaced but they are sticking with the church to which God called them.
August 1st, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Brent has a new post up
August 1st, 2012 at 11:57 pm
has anyone ever done a family tree so to speak of current and former sgm churches. Who started them? Who got shanked? who planted? who “just” left?
I always hear alot of firmilar names but its tough to make the connections.
August 2nd, 2012 at 9:59 am
KAZ,
I think there was old post or comment on an old post that highlighted such somewhat, but I can’t find it now.
One thing’s for sure, anytime an organization’s leadership is built with “nepotism/good-old-boys-club” as it’s framework it eventually falls. There’s just no accountabilility in such a system.
August 2nd, 2012 at 2:19 pm
Well…
I tied Kaz, I really tried but it got too interconnected. It is hard to follow but the interesting thing is that if you follow these guys from church to church you can follow the infection. It is like one guy is a carrier and he infects the next church he serves. When you read these names half have been degifted and half are the degifters. There ARE a few names of good pastors in here and I am sorry to have to include them but they do demonstrate the family connections.
Since we were chatting about Chesapeake, Dave Bendelli and Pete Payne and Chris De Logos all went on to Denver. All of them were degifted or forced into retirement.
John Butler then lead Chesapeake with Eric Hughes, Brian Wasko, Tim Hulme and Brett Campbell. After five years Butler then went down to clean up things in Atlanta with Aaron Anderson. But before he leaves he degifts Ray Cagle, a local boy sent to the PC that came back home. Butler will wind up being degifted down in Atlanta.
Brault takes over Chesapeake and brings in all his buddies from the PC; Trevor Haynes, Chad Rogers, Chris Mangold, B. Orth, Kirk Alexander. KB thinks he has a dream team but I don’t think any of them are still around.
From the entire life of Chesapeake I think there are four pastors that still practice. Eric Hughes, who is sr pastor there, Aaron Anderson still in charge of Atlanta, Brett Campbell recently moved down to one of the Florida churches, and good ‘ol Keith Brault.
Then there is the family connection in the Philly area.
Don Shorey was a pastor at CovFel until he was degifted by Harvey. Joel Shorey is Don’s nephew and Tim’s son, and he is now a CovFel pastor, and his dad was a pastor across the river in NJ at TrinityFel, but he was suspiciously put out for a sabbatical. After being degifted Don went out and started his own church with about half of CovFel and pastor Joe McMullin. Kent Simon, Bill Patton and Allen Redrup are also foced out. Then there is Ken Mellinger who left CovFel under a cloud and he started the Harrisburg church while his son runs CovFel.
Speaking of uncles and father/son groups there is more of that in SGM. Steve Shank got his son a job at an SGM church. And we know all about Phil and Nathan Sasser, plus the Baker boy who is Phil’s son in law. Bill and Chris Patton in NJ, Danny and Jeremy Jones in Fla, brothers Bob and Jim Donohue at what’s left of Ashburn and CovFel. Brothers Dave and Vince Hinders at Fairfax, Benny and several of his boys from Fairfax first, then Metro, now Redeemer in Fla. There is whole CJ clan with brothers, sons, uncles, nephews and more in-laws than you can shake a stick at. There is Warren and Jeffery Boettcher, Bill and Dave Farle7y at Grace, Mark and Stephen Altrogge in Pa, Dan and Thomas Kim in Calif, Jimmy and Jim Cannon in Joppa and finally Nathan Smith and his father in law, Peter Bowling in Bristol.
Now if that does not describe a web of nepotism an deceit you need to be fitted with glasses.
August 2nd, 2012 at 4:29 pm
Tim Shorey is cut from a different cloth. I hope he has not been hurt by SGM or taken part in any of this silly crap. I always really liked him. Does anyone see him at Cov Fel?
August 2nd, 2012 at 4:37 pm
in the nick you’ve got some of your CovFel facts wrong. Ken Mellinger never attended there, and Don Shorey didn’t take 1/2 the church. It was less than 100.
I’m on your side, but I don’t like un-facts being presented as facts. (I’m not sure why I even looked at this site today, as we’ve left and are trying to mentally move on.) retreating to my corner now.
August 2nd, 2012 at 5:06 pm
Just to clarify, #99, Bill Patton and Allen Redrup, after being de-gifted at different times, both stayed at CovFel and still remain faithful members after several years. They both recently received a public apology from Dave Harvey/CovFel in a members meeting and humbly forgave Dave. As I observed before, these are 2 truly humble men.
Chris Patton (Bill’s son) is a pastor in Delaware, not NJ. And Tim Shorey (Joel’s dad) can be seen at Covfel. I got the idea that he left his former church because of an on-going physical condition. He preached at Covfel a while back; a good message from Isaiah 40. Don Shorey left CovFel of his own accord (I think) to start a new church. In hind sight, maybe I did not know the whole true story back then. We heard he had some differences in doctrine. We weren’t told exactly what.
So, that’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it.
August 2nd, 2012 at 6:21 pm
Yep, Bills son is in Del, not NJ. Missed that one in my notes.
Oswald, Was the apology to Bill and Allen as thorough as the apology that Tim Hulme made down in Chesapeake? Or was it just “sorry for how you were treated”?
Tim must be back from his sabbatical.
But Don did not leave “of his own accord”. At least that depends on how you define that term. If someone does things you cant stomach and changes the system so much that you cant agree on anything and they tell you too bad, that’s the way it is now and you leave, then perhaps he did leave on his own accord. And if, when you leave you take with you one of the other pastors and enough families (100?) to start a new church down the road, then Yes, Don left on his own accord.
And I could swear that Ken Mellinger was at CovFel way back in the early days. I thought he was there and asked to step down for a while…came back as an admin pastor then regular pastor and then given the Harrisburg Plant. Any old timers from CovFel out there to prove me right? or wrong?
And all of that is just what happened in SGM up north. There are more sordid tales from our southern brothers and sisters in Richmond, N.C. and Atlanta! I just dont know all the details on those.
August 2nd, 2012 at 8:10 pm
My take on the “apology” that Dave Harvey gave was that it was a way for Harvey to continue being a leader now that at least one of his children were having behaviour issues with the same severity to or worse than the behaviour of the children of these former “disqualified” pastors.
It was Harvey and other leaders changing the rules now that the rule that was imposed on these two men wouldn’t have to be imposed on Harvey. I have mixed emotions about someone changing the rules that they imposed on someone else when they are now applying to the person wanting to change them. One thought I have is that it was better for Harvey and other current leaders to do this than to try and hide issues with a leader’s child like C.J. Mahaney allegedly did with his own son’s sin.
It is sometimes easy to condemn other leaders before you have children that are grown or before you were lucky and didn’t a child with more of a wild rebellious temperment. Harvey found this out the hard way. Mahaney’s first set of children were apparently compliant girls (not sayiing all girls are) and then later he had one son and things can be different with boys.
August 2nd, 2012 at 8:14 pm
Nick,
Quick correction of the “revolving door at Macy’s at Christmastime” pastors at Chesapeake:
Kirk Alexander is still there.
And…who is Chad Rogers? I was there through all of this and don’t remember him?
And we had an “almost pastor”…he went to PC and then somewhere else…young guy, musical, wife was a music teacher at one time…can’t think of his name. If someone said it, I’d recognize it.
We also had a chronic issue with revolving caregroups. Just when you were getting to know some folks…SPLIT! Change, shift.
Funny. When I left the SG church in Chesapeake, I kind of, sort of left on good terms, and I expressed interest in still wanting to attend caregroup for awhile as I went around and visited churches to find my new church home. They prayed for me, supported me, and wished me the best. I was told, “Of course, of course.” I just wanted to stay connected to some folks while going through my transition. Verbally, I was affirmed that it would be great. But, as soon as you can blink your eye, I was: deleted from the caregroup e-mail list…and locked out of the church directory almost instantaneously. As though I did not exist anymore. I am surprised that I was not “defriended” on facebook by people. Out of sight, out of mind…I suppose. I mean…I can understand gradually losing touch as I get involved in new circles of people at a new church. But, it was all so abrubt. Nobody followed up with me…not even on facebook…to ask me how I was doing or how my church visiting was going…nothing. Kind of sad, really. Oh wait…one person followed up with me…someone who also left the church and knew I was visiting around.
August 2nd, 2012 at 8:29 pm
IntheNick 99
One addition to your account is that John Butler was ‘re-gifted’ a few years ago and sent to plant the SGM church in, Dayton, OH (where the Mahaney’s son was a member last year). John’s wife is a sister of Doris Tomczak.
I think John and his wife are good people and I’m glad they get to pastor the flock, again. I also think it is notable that CJ recognized his mistake and, restored them. It means he has changed his mind on extenuating circumstances.
It is also commendable that Chesapeake included the Butlers in their anniversary bash a few years ago.
Still, I think it’s sad that John didn’t find another organization to work for and, the timing couldn’t be much worse!
I wonder if it will be possible to account for all the stories of gifting and de-gifting and to tease out the reasons for each SGM transfer? Some stories will be taken to the grave.
August 2nd, 2012 at 9:58 pm
Nick and Steve — Who can say whether the ‘apology’ to Patton and Redrup was just used for Dave’s benefit or not. It is said that there was much research by other CovFel pastors to re-address the matter of their de-giftings. Dave’s words of apology were very emotional. Again, …spin? Who can tell. We can speculate, but we don’t know. You may be able to get a CD of the members meeting. There is one available for free. (A practice that is almost NEVER done?)
I’ve heard from a reliable source that Tim S has said he will not be returning to his former church in NJ.
Concerning Ken Mellinger, I’m almost sure that he was never a pastor at CovFel. He was (I think) sent out to plant the Harrisburg church from Lancaster Covenant (now called something more SGM appropriate) Ken is one pastor who was not de-gifted even though having a VERY rebellious teenage son; our own Jared, Sr P at CovFel.
August 2nd, 2012 at 10:35 pm
From Argus #62:
“I am painfully familiar with the infamous San Diego Shankings (plural) that forever proved that SGM “Apostles” have no flashing red Bat Phone from Heaven.”
Can anyone tell me what that’s about? He says it’s infamous, but I don’t know the story. Thanks.
August 2nd, 2012 at 10:35 pm
Steve240,
Of course they forgave them! They had to!!! Harvey’s kids were 100x worse than the others. It is such a sham!
August 2nd, 2012 at 11:15 pm
Square Peg,
Was the “almost pastor’ Albert Turner? He’s a pastor at the Frederick, MD church.
August 2nd, 2012 at 11:26 pm
HowDee YaAll,
*
“Please pray for Eagle, our regular TWW commenter, who was admitted to the Intensive Care Unit in a hospital in the DC area with a serious systemic infection which grew out of a cut on his leg. He is very, very sick. I have changed this announcement to allow for comments or you can send emails to TWW which we will forward to his email account. pray for God’s strength and peace.”
*
-Dee@TWW
*
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/29/eagle-is-seriously-ill-please-pray-for-him/#comment-54813
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Eagle may have lost a battle for his “faith”, Kris, but be of good cheer, the war ain’t over yet.
*
I’de give Eagle a glass of cold water any time & anywhere!
*
ATB Eagle!
*
Our faith has substance.
*
…and so our prayers!
*
*
“We Are The Reason”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrPAZbD6fG0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
*
*
Yahooooooooo!
*
Sopy ;~)
___
Comic relief: Three Dog Night -- “Celebrate”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXI6CdTVJ-0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=3665&cp=5#comment-65269
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=3665&cp=5#comment-65276
August 2nd, 2012 at 11:39 pm
@103 and @107. Ken Mellinger was never a pastor before taking over Living Hope Church in the 90′s.
August 3rd, 2012 at 6:03 am
Nick, you did a GREAT job up there in 99. What a sick, dysfunctional family of churches, eh?
Just a few minor corrections:
unless he became a pastor after 2001, Kent Simon was not a pastor.
I was very involved at Cov Fel for its first 15 years, even volunteering in the office for a few years, and I never even heard the name Ken Mellinger.
I don’t think the apology at Cov Fel was anywhere near thorough enough.
Oswald, it’s interesting that you say that you got the impression that Tim is on sabbatical from the Tom’s River, NJ church due to physical problems. Isn’t it amazing how good SGM is at creating impressions, yet without actually speaking truth? So tragic.
Don Shorey did NOT leave of his own accord, no matter what the public story that the Cov Fel pastors created was.
Oswald, I am confused by your line, “It is said that there was much research by other CovFel pastors to re-address the matter of their de-giftings.” I just went to double check Covenant Fellowship’s website and at least 8 of the 12 men who are pastors/on staff now were in the know back when Alan and Bill were forced out. There was no need for any research. These guys were there and most of them complicite. The research line sounds more like, “Ah, we didn’t do it” than, “Yeah, we sold our brothers down the river. We did it with our own two hands.” Such perversion of truth, to me.
beautiful lies is correct- when Shorey and McMullin left, no where near half of the church left. Just some really good folks left. Many who had been involved at Cov Fel for more than a decade.
August 3rd, 2012 at 7:00 am
To Lost in Cyber Space #110,
Yes, it was Albert Turner, I believe. Thanks for that.
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:05 am
Persona said --
THIS IS A TREMENDOUSLY IMPORTANT POINT! <— <—
The answers is no. Because much of the SGM gifting is in their own eyes. THEY decide if you are gifted or not. THEY make the judgement call. THEY control gifting.
This is so important because THEY are about to write polity that says THEY are called as APOSTLES.
See, it is all kind of easy when YOU make the important calls about WHO is gifted and who is not and WHO lost their gift!
Gifting = Control
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:17 am
So the apology was not a real apology but just a way of changing the standards. The apology did not describe the sin, explain the bad consequences it had, did not explain how it made the other party feel, and left no idea of how he would change in the future for this not to happen again.
Did he say something like, “I regret not more effectively guarding misapplication of my fatherly directives”, kind of a CJ type of apology?
It was certainly nothing like the apology that came from Chesapeake nor the three apologies that have come from CLC!
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:26 am
Agreed, that parenting views change as you first have children of your own and then later as the numbers increase and then finally when they are older. Certainly raising girls is different from boys.
Most of the boys/young men I know in SGM churches are on with wimpy side. I see some of those families with 10 kids and the girls all turn out wonderfully. They are grace filled, gentle, caring, beautiful women. The problem is their brothers are usually the same way. No very manly. But then real manliness and most of the traits that mark a man as someone you might like to follow or throw in with are squeezed out in SGM. That is pride and we cant have any of that. (That is why pastor dads have to open the door for their boys, because SGM boys dont have the chutzpah to do it on their own. Any backbone left in the boys is called rebellion and it quickly stamped out!
In the end, it is natural and normal to change your opinions in child rearing. What is not natural is to change your opinions for yourself but still hold others to the old standards.
When was the last SGM pastor run out of office for the sins of his children? When was the last time that double standard was applied in any SGM churches that you know?
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:34 am
Kirk IS still at Chesapeake. Sorry for that oversight. I had highlighted all the pastors that had been degifted from there and I think Kirk was the only one that was not highlighted in my notes so I missed him. Apologies, Kirk.
Chad Rogers wound up at the Atlanta church. He came from Chesapeake and I thought he returned home for a short while before he went further south. But he would have “grown up” and been influenced by Brault’s type of “leadership”. He may have escaped un-infected, I don’t know anything about his time at the Atlanta Church but he is not there now. Just Aaron Anderson and Brett Campbell…kind of a Chesapeake “South” church since both pastors there were former Chesapeake pastors.
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:36 am
“Operation Ceege? (2012)”
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HowDee YaAll,
*
Dah…Whatz Up, Doc?
*
Da Ceege has a hall-pass from AoR?
*
Da Ceege has a hall-pass from da big dogs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1FSRMfNtLU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Da Ceege has skipped town wit da checkbook?
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hmmm…
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Pass go, collect $5M?
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Oh!, the irony…
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hum, hum,hum…
*
…♪♫♪Da Ceege backpeddles over de blackmail, Da Ceege presides again over de See…
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“A Second Time?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-QukOhEUUE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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…♪♫♪Da Ceege has parked his tocas de Louisville, oh! bring back da Ceege ta me…
*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye3cIHH62_A&feature=youtube_gdata_player
*
all together now!
*
♪♫♪bring back, bring back, oh! bring back da Ceege to me, to me, oh! bring back, bring back, …oh! bring back da Ceege to me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GNrVb-HtZ4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
*
(grin)
*
The joke’s on you, SGM, eh?
*
hahahahahahahaha
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Sopy ;~)
___
Comic relief: Bugs Bunny in “Operation Rabbit”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoKA2OLJ8hs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
*
Bonus: Bugs Bunny in da “Barbary Coast Bunny”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24ZFz1rfCoc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
--
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:42 am
Peg --
Rotating care group leaders is a control mechanism.
If you rotate leadership roles the people desirous of those positions will do more and more to attain those positions.
Once in the position they are willing to do more and go further to keep those positions because they know the leadership position can be taken away on a whim. And there are always people that want to step up to that care group leaders position.
Additionally, if you switch out your leaders on a regular basis no one can be in a position long enough to develop their own small following or garner enough loyalty to sway the minds of people under their “care”.
SGM has all the power centralized in two or three guys and very few places for anyone else to “strut their stuff” thereby kind of castrating the men who, by normal God given endowment, would like to exercise their drive and zeal to get things done!
Ditto for ignoring you when you officially left, even on good terms. YOU are no longer controllable so you must be completely cut off.
In hindsight is is all Machiavelli 101.
August 3rd, 2012 at 10:17 am
Aiden, I am pretty sure there is a link with more details somewhere. Maybe someone can look it up.
First, some ‘lesser’ details. Craig Cabaniss (now board member)
was planting pastor at Grace Church San Diego. Eventually, Rich Phelan (long time SGM member from AZ and then SD, worked in pro-life) was ordained as associate pastor. Older guy, caring, well regarded. Some time after, Eric Turbedsky was also brought on. Young guy, very earnest and zealous, also liked, but not many really thought in their heart of hearts that he was mature enough to be ready for prime time. He had a business painting houses. His wife was a brilliant, world-class PhD scientist who gave it up to stay home and raise babies. Later, Dan Wilson was added to pastoral staff, Great guy, good choice, former hippie, long-time Vineyard, well-proven, pastor’s heart, truly humble (not just ‘SGM-humble’).
Rich’s teenage son fell into some wayward behavior so Rich was removed after a probation period to turn it around. It was felt by TPTB that he had not been proactive enough at bringing his son back into line. Most of the church knew nothing about it until Shank showed up one Sunday morning to announce Rich was stepping down and that this had been a behind-the-scenes process for something like a year or more. Members were stunned and more than a little uneasy that their happy church could be upended without their knowledge. Rich Phelan submitted and put a nice face on it and stayed a long time, but it was extremely hurtful,of course.
Ironically, after their move to Frisco, TX, one of Craig Cabaniss’ teenage daughters got pregnant out of wedlock. It was announced in a family meeting, along with the report that many behind-the-scenes discussions had gone on with other pastors there, with leaders of SGM, and others outside of SGM (?), and it was decided that Craig could stay. Said daughter was 18 by then, Craig had done his best as a parent to address his daughter’s struggles, had offered to step down, etc. Church was embracing, daughter has since returned to the fold, child is adorable, all is well.
Back in San Diego, after the bombshell announcement that Craig C. was leaving to plant a church in TX (once again, a long behind the scenes process sprung on the members only after being decided), Mark Lauterbach was announced as the new senior pastor. He was a stranger to everyone except Craig (and possibly other key leaders -- who knows?) before then. Princeton grad, seminary grad, D.Min, former Presbyterian pastor with over 20 years’ in the ministry, had been drawn to SGM by the books and conferences, decided to switch, and went through SGM Pastors’ College. (!!!) After a while, the SD church launched a building project. Lots of protracted legal battles with city, made the news, major cost overruns. (SD has no areas zoned for churches, so every one has to jump through hoops to get ‘conditional use permits.’) Eric T. led the building project. Mark L. led the church. Dan did much of the counseling and tended a lot of the East County folk. (A big contingent of former Calvary Chapel, Vineyard, and some Baptist people had been driving a long way from East County to the rented school meeting place in North County, hoping for and having been told that they’d have something closer, but the building was even farther north (richer up there). As this building upheaval dragged on, the church was becoming more reformed and less ‘Calvary Chapel-ish.’ Some people found these blogs. A few began quietly leaving.
So, finances all messed up. Major cost overruns, 60K budget deficit.
Suddenly, Steve Shank swooped in and announced that Mark L. was being removed as senior pastor because, after a long behind-the-scenes review process, it had been determined that Mark lacked the gifting to be a senior pastor. (Yes, he said that.) Mark L was degifted and made associate pastor. The new senior pastor, effective immediately, was Eric Turbedsky. Mark would begin teaching Eric how to preach.
That was the last straw of being jerked around. Major push-back. People left in droves to any number of other churches. Church finances tanked even more.
Not too long after, Steve Shank showed up again. Well, guess what! He’d been ‘right’ about Eric T. being called to be a senior pastor. Just not there! It was a Paul and Barnabas situation! Apparently, God had seen fit to regift Mark L. to be senior pastor and now Eric T. was going to plant and lead a new church up in Orange County, CA.
So, that’s what happened. Eric T. (Turbo) leads a church in Irvine and has a blog, where his tag line is “Essentially Reformed with a Significant California Dimension”
Mark L. leads Grace Church San Diego. After the ridiculous shanking’ episodes, they had member meetings, committee, meetings, etc. Mark’s Presby background kicked in. They became perhaps the first SGM church to write their own constitution and bylaws, bring on lay pastors/elders, include more congregational involvement, etc. Still strongly elder-ruled, but with an expanded definition of elders and at least some congregational representation. Still strongly complementarian. Still SGM. I suspect their actions sparked the so-called ‘polity considerations’ that SGM leadership was supposedly having behind the scenes. They may become the model for new SGM polity.
Oh, and SGM will finally be planting a church in the East County portion of San Diego, to be led by Tab Trainor, formerly senior pastor in Oswego, IL.
There may be more, and my facts and timeline may not be 100% accurate, but that is how I understand it. It’s hard to know the truth of things in SGM because so much is shrouded in need-to-know secrecy and cloaked in double-speak and soft words.
August 3rd, 2012 at 10:18 am
Nick, there are plenty of young men who are masculine who were raised in SGM. (they just all had to leave SGM to exercise it.) And certinaly NOT all of the girls raised in large families are grace filled. If anything, I’d say lots of “outer appearance” is going on with the law behind.
August 3rd, 2012 at 11:00 am
Aidan,
Argus,
Here are the links to the San Diego story:
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/12/12/uh-oh-steve-shank-is-here/
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2008/12/08/another-good-one-bites-the-dust-more-from-my-in-box/#comments
August 3rd, 2012 at 11:24 am
Argus and SGMsingle, thanks so much for taking the time to write all this. It’s been very enlightening and helpful to me personally.
August 3rd, 2012 at 11:29 am
SGMSingle, thanks for the links.
BTW, all, I subscribe to the Recovering Grace blog by former Bill Gothard folks. Very well done and it has been freeing for me as one who went through (and dragged my family through) the Bill Gothard brand of legalism.
I am convinced that Bill Gothard’s false dogmas informed a LOT of what is wrong with SGM and other even scarier branches of the church, mainly via homeschooling circles. (I speak as a former long-time homeschooling parent.)
Anyway, their recent post was so apropos of SGM:
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/08/the-subtle-power-of-spiritual-abuse-chapter-8-revictimizing-victims-contd/
August 3rd, 2012 at 12:19 pm
Argus @ 10:17 -
The end has not been written. The beginning and middle are the same sad stories heard over and over again. I’ve been very surprised with the path of Craig Cabaniss.
August 3rd, 2012 at 1:06 pm
Well Done, Argus!
Mark L’s church plans and his blueprint for new polity has already made the rounds. It was studied by CLC and by Fairfax as they were/are writing their new polity.
It is the new face of a lot of SGM churches. Whether it will be adopted by SGM, only time will tell.
Did those guys down in KY actually HEAR and UNDERSTAND what was presented to them, or were they just giving lip service to the churches when they said you can present your opinions on polity to use if you can get it down on paper and ready to present in two weeks or less.
August 3rd, 2012 at 1:09 pm
@Argus #121 -- “Still SGM. I suspect their actions sparked the so-called ‘polity considerations’ that SGM leadership was supposedly having behind the scenes. They may become the model for new SGM polity.”
I just found this on the San Diego church site:
http://www.gcsandiego.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/leadership-at-grace-church-final.pdf
I thought it was very good. Though it didn’t address what kind of authority SGM might exercise in relation to member churches, it did make plain some elements of pastor/elder leadership that are not common within SGM, such as congregational affirmation of those who might serve as elders and the benefits of having uncompensated/lay elders. It looks like this document was uploaded to their site in May, 2011. I wonder if anyone from this church presented anything in the recent polity meetings. (I hope so.)
August 3rd, 2012 at 1:12 pm
Chesapeake and San Diego are the two most recent examples of Mark Deaver’s comment. He said,
When the elders are too demanding, too secretive, too untrustworthy people vote with their feet. They dont need a binding vote in all matters, they dont need to be counted as pro this or con that. They make a single but significant statement when they vote to move along to a different church.
That’s what happened at Chesapeake. That’s what happened at San Diego. That is what happened at Ashburn. That’s what happened at Midlothian. That’s what happened at Metro. The same thing happens again and again. You would think SGM would wise up to this.
August 3rd, 2012 at 1:26 pm
Oswald, Stunned, and all, perhaps to sum it up. Ken Mellinger was never a pastor at CovFel. Ken has been shown great favor in SGM. When Jared was in his rebellious stage for years (which Jared readily admits to) Ken did not have to “step down” nor was he obviously not degifted as other pastors were. Ken’s son (Jared) later becomes “senior” pastor at CovFel one of the more prestigious pastorates in SGM. Ken now serves on the SGM Board. One could guess that once CJ retires many years from now and Jared writes a book or two, Jared will take the reigns from CJ. Then it will be a Mellinger dynasty. Tim Shorey is a mystery to me. He shows up one day and from a distance I thought he was Don. Sometime later people are informed he is on sabbatical, really? Don’t know what the next steps are. As for Dave’s apology to two former pastors, one does not know what truly is in Dave’s heart and the motivation for such. But given that these two men were force out almost two decades ago and Dave now faces up to his own ongoing family problems, its seems uncanny timing that CovFel all of a sudden publicly changes its stance on pastoral leadership, Dave asks forgiveness of these two brothers and Dave get’s to stay in ministry. Explain all that! In the meantime many of the oldtimers are not buying any of it and have left or are in the process of leaving.
August 3rd, 2012 at 1:26 pm
Stunned #113 — Tim Shorey mentioned a condition that he suffers from, that causes tiredness. I won’t say what it is because I may have the disease name wrong; but he told his story when he preached few months ago.
Concerning the apology to Patton and Redrup, it’s on CD to hear. The pastors who walked through the thing with P and R and did ‘research’ were Jim Donohue and Andy Farmer. They said they got info/timelines, etc, from Marty M also, because he’s a good record keeper. (they could have asked Brent, he’s a good record keeper, too)I wondered why research was needed, too. It’s all on the CD for your listening pleasure. Maybe you know someone who could give you the CD.
August 3rd, 2012 at 2:01 pm
Me, too!
I have respected Craig. I have considered him a friend and one of the good guys. I don’t think he is operating from crass motives. He don’t think he is power-hungry or greedy. But I think he has made grievous errors in judgment.
He loves SGM. He has been part of it for a long time and has received much spiritual growth and blessing and goodness through SGM. SGM-think and SGM-speak have shaped and colored his worldview. He meets with the guys at the top and they are nice and talk a good game and pray together and he accepts that at face value. He usually gives people the benefit of the doubt and believes the best. He is so steeped in SGM that I doubt he perceives his bias.
Sometimes I feel his sense of loyalty has led him astray with SGM, and SGM has used him in a way. But, then again, he’s a grown man, and a smart one at that. He has been a party to some bad decisions.
BTW, someone earlier mentioned Pete Payne as having left VA, gone to Denver with Dave Bendinelli, and been among those either degifted or forced into retirement. Actually, Pete Payne and family, along with at least one other VA/Denver family (joined by marriage of offspring) moved to the Frisco, TX, church plant very early on, and the church was told that Pete P. would be associate pastor there before he even arrived and before most people had even met him.
The other related VA/Denver family, long-time SGMers, (related also by marriage of offspring to another family from SD who moved to Frisco w. the plant) were made care group leaders right off the bat.
Now Pete Payne’s son Jon is leading a new SGM church plant team from Phoenix to Austin, TX.
And another of Pete’s son was hired as the Frisco church administrator.
August 3rd, 2012 at 2:16 pm
Does anyone remember the name of the SGM Pastor/Apostle in FL that resigned years ago due to Chronic Fatigue or Fibromyalgia?
August 3rd, 2012 at 2:44 pm
I don’t know about FL, but I know former Apostle/A-Team/Leadership Team/Regional Board member (not sure what designation was in favor at the time) Paul Palmer resigned citing intractable health issues like CF or Fibro.
A couple of years later, he apologized for his part in the blackmail of Larry Tomczak, saying it was weighing on him, even though his primary sin was in not speaking out against it. (For instance, he opted not to participate in some threatening phone calls made to Tomczak.)
He was the first of the men involved to apologize, and it would be eight more years before anyone else apologized and even longer before any of this was made public.
August 3rd, 2012 at 4:00 pm
One of worst things about this incident was the conspiracy of top leaders to try and hide this sin rather than having it confessed.
August 3rd, 2012 at 4:14 pm
Oswald, thank you so much for letting me know about the CD! I really appreciate it.
August 3rd, 2012 at 4:20 pm
@Steve240 #135 -- I completely agree. The whole issue of CJ coercing Larry to leave without voicing his doctrinal differences should be clearly problematic in everyone’s mind even today.
1. CJ did coerce Larry (CJ even used the word coercion in describing it).
2. CJ ignored Larry’s attempts at reconciliation for how many years? (When it should have been CJ attempting reconciliation with Larry!!)
I think these facts are clearly established apart from anything in Brent’s documents and they should have been cause for grave concern by anyone involved in assessing CJ’s fitness for ministry. The events happened long ago, but CJ’s heart remained hardened against correction for a long, long time when the sin was seemingly obvious to everyone (except most of those who perpetrated it, I guess).
I continue to marvel at how this is downplayed in evaluating CJ’s continuing role in SGM.
August 3rd, 2012 at 6:47 pm
Yep…lots of “outer appearance” going on with the girls in my neck of the woods, too.
And unfortunately, LOTS of wimpy guys who interestingly come from controlling, wimpy daddies.
August 3rd, 2012 at 8:24 pm
Did’ja see the photo with the new post at Refuge?
LOL
August 3rd, 2012 at 8:29 pm
Refuge has a good post up:
http://sgmrefuge.com/2012/08/03/mickey-connolly-responds-to-brent/
As 5 Years said, nice picture. Too bad someone didn’t photoshop it to show Mickey bowing in obedience to Pope Mahaney.
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:40 pm
Forgive me if this is old news…You Tube links videos to blog comments?!?
http://www.reelseo.com/youtube-autogenerated-channels-search/
So here’s what we end up with…kinda funny seeing the whole collection.
http://www.youtube.com/blogs/sgmrefuge
http://www.youtube.com/blogs/sgmsurvivors
August 3rd, 2012 at 9:42 pm
Sopwith- It seems you spend a lot of time on you tube. ;)
August 3rd, 2012 at 11:25 pm
Stunned -
Has Harvey ever apologized or explained, in public, his treatment of Don Shorey and Joe McMullin?
August 4th, 2012 at 8:03 am
Nick, not that I know of. It made me really sad when we heard of Dave/Cov Fel apologize to the two who remained but not those who weren’t. Another tragic example of “if you’re not one of us, you don’t exist anymore”
August 4th, 2012 at 9:33 am
Unassimilated, You said: “#142 -- It seems you spend a lot of time on you tube.”
-srug-
Unassimilated, respectfully, you seemed to have missed the point. Others did not. Youtube is simply a vehicle of expression. A grand one. So are social networks. Humor is simply a vehicle of expression when tyranny and opression is present. And it is…in spades with The leaders of SGM, as everyone knows…
(sadface)
Let me “unpack” it for you in a nutshell:
C.J. Mahaney is now apparently untouchable. He apparently has outsmarted everyone. He has the approval of big names in American Christian community. If persued further he will simply hand the reigns to another, or merge his sole ownership non-profit with another, vote himself a sizable retirement package, and quietly walk away.
Speculation abounds.
C.J Mahaney knows that next year when the economy falters, the blogs will look stupid, and insensitive, issues with him will become small potatoes. Al_M. and Mark_D. know this also as does Page P. I suspect.
Mark Driscoll is just marking his time. (no pun intended)
When the economy drys up, and the forecasting says it will; so unless the blogs have a positive contribution, given the severity of the economic climate presented, many will simply vote with the absence of a “click”. The feet will follow. Individual SGM churches will increase their food banks and add to its assistance to the local communities they serve.
(Brent D would do well to start a community church. His assistance to the local community he could be serving would, I suspect, greatly benefit from his organizational skills. Time will tell.)
Many are loosing their faith in Christ because of poor examples, and spiritual abuse issues. The faltering U.S. economy will only tend to exacerbate these conditions for the American Christian churches. Yes, Mark Dever is correct, people will simply vote with their feet. When the economy falters, more and more churches will simply close their doors, home churches will rise up to fill the gap. This is common knowledge.What this means for the American Christian community remains to be seen.
-Hopeful-
Respectfully, Kris apparently has already demonstrated with her comment to Eagle that those that loose their faith will find NO comfort here @ SGM Survivors. Please explain. What happened to the “cool glass of water” to the soul in need, is beyond my comprehension.
“follow me, and I will make you fishers of men…”
-Jesus
“Covered In His Precious Blood”,
ATB (to all)
Sopy
August 4th, 2012 at 10:47 am
Sopwith --
Respectfully, what better “cool glass of water” could there be for Eagle besides my expression of sorrow that he has turned his back on Jesus, our only Living Water?
I’m grieved that Eagle has “lost his faith,” but that is not a passive thing. That is something that he has deliberately chosen for himself. Strangely enough, there are bunches of places in the Bible that do not speak of such a choice in a touchy-feely way. Many passages in scripture would seem to indicate that we actually should not bend over backward to show how cool and tolerant and accepting we are when a person talks like that.
Sometimes I feel offended on God’s behalf that there are actually people out there who claim to have been believers but who now have the audacity and the nerve to sit back and shrug and say they are agnostic and no longer believe…and go around casually throwing out that fact as they comment on websites.
It’s not a “cool glass of water” to provide them the bandwidth for that. Seriously -- it’s not.
I know that Eagle has been seriously ill. If he meets his maker, he will be standing before the almighty living God. I believe that with every fiber of my being. I also believe that the picture of God given to us in the Bible ought to fill us with awe and wonder and the respect that would leave us on our faces, crying, “Woe is me.”
It’s not love, to sit back and be all casual and accepting of a person’s words of death, his declaration of disbelief…especially if it might be the last online interaction he has before having to come face to face with the God of the universe. How cool and loving is it for us to act like it’s OK and no big deal for someone to reject the love of God that was shown to us through Jesus’ death and resurrection?
Sometimes in our eagerness to prove our open-mindedness and demonstrate that Christians aren’t actually intolerant biggots, we act more like atheists than the self-proclaimed atheist. Do we believe in what God has said about Himself, or not?
If so, where is our respect for Him? Where is our sense of His greatness and His amazing goodness? Where is our sense of righteous indignation, that someone could have (supposedly) tasted that goodness and yet now calmly speak of rejecting it through his disbelief, tossing it out there in casual conversation like it’s nothing more than another descriptor of himself, as though he were telling us his ethnicity or his eye color?
Where is our truly loving concern for this person, if we are more concerned about having him feel accepted than we are concerned about the very real ultimate consequences of his willful unbelief?
August 4th, 2012 at 12:35 pm
With a nod to our pal Pastor Former (#59)…:Approve: and an apology that I am behind but I feel the need to add that at least one of the ‘de-gifted’ pastors in the sg system WAS a bully and a “lout” and deserved to get fired. I think Shank would have let him go on forever because he was essentially an unsophisticated version of the A-Team, except for the years of continual complaints interrupting shank’s life finally hitting the breaking point, when this little guy’s own leaders started calling.
Oh and yeah, he filed a complaint with AoR.
Kris, welcome back! And I respectfully thank you for pointing out the holiness of our awesome God and Lord who deserves our faith and our worship.
I join you in praying for Eagle’s life, both physically and spiritually.
August 4th, 2012 at 2:48 pm
“Loving Concern…”
*
Kris,
Hey,
“Where is our truly loving concern for this person”, Eagle?
hmmm…
Dee, the famed “blog queen” of the Wartburg Watch
…and who has been a kind friend to me, traveled four and a half hours to see that his (Eagle’s) wounds were mended, his parched soul refreshed. Quite frankly, his spirit was renewed as upon “Eagle’s wings”, if I may say so! Others came and visited Eagle also; others were just a call away, and said so.
Eagle came un-armed & un-pretentious here @Survivors in an effort to compliment you for your efforts. That’s it. He has been reading, as he said for some time, I think…
As I recall, the famed author and poet, Robert Louis Stevenson, was shunned by his Calvinist “Elder” father much of his life, because of his loss to agnosticism. It has been said by churchmen dear to Louis (RLS), that he spent the Autumn of his life reading the scriptures. Who is to say what became of his soul. But the church he helped to build, always had an open door and a open heart…
Forgive my illustrious friend Eagle, for his table manners, and his apparent lack of faith; I will carry him with my faith & prayers until he is on-the-mend.
Will you thus regard me favorably? I’ve washed my face and hands… I have… (grin)
Kris, Respectfully, I have asked the Lord to pay you a very special visit, He assures me that He has plenty of “cool water” to spare. Blessings & Thanks for your Kindness and your Prayers over the years, I am forever grateful. May our Lord fill you with His spirit to overflowing!
Le Seigneur peut enregistrer quelle que soit la langue parlée…
ATB
Sopy
August 4th, 2012 at 5:19 pm
Wow, Sopwith -
I guess I have provided you with an opportunity to experience the same sort of righteous indignation that I feel when someone is repeatedly compelled to mention how they used to be a Christian but are now an agnostic.
Good times.
:D
August 4th, 2012 at 8:36 pm
“What Excites Our Righteous Indignation?”
Kris,
I sense (a tinge) i. e. some manner of frustration here on your part…and I empathize…
The nearest opposite to pity in classical greek is what is called righteous indignation; since pity is defined as the feeling of pain at undeserved misfortunes; righteous indignation is defined typically as a reactive emotion of anger over perceived mistreatment, insult, or malice. It is akin to what is called the sense of injustice. In some Christian doctrines, righteous indignation is considered the only form of anger which is not sinful, e.g., when Jesus drove the money lenders out of the temple. (Gospel of Matthew 21)
“Righteous” means acting in accord with divine or moral law or free from guilt or sin. It may also refer to a morally right or justifiable decision or action or to an action which arises from an outraged sense of justice or morality.
“Indignation” is anger aroused by something unjust, mean, or unworthy. The Dictionary describes indignation as a “feeling involving anger mingled with contempt or disgust”.
Sure, “anger is not always sinful”. For example, Jesus when he was “angry with the Pharisees for the hardness of their hearts”; yet as I recall, He had a great compassion for them.
Should Christians aim to … be a bit circumspect and vigilant in restraining their sense of justice within the bounds of reason, meekness, piety, and christian charity?
Both of these feelings (righteous indignation and pity) are indicative of good character. Yes.
But is it not our duty to sympathise with unmerited misfortune and pity it, as it is to feel indignant at the possibility of unmerited prosperity?
What happens if injustices of nature and fortune, possibly as well as those inflicted by man mixed in, are not in conformity with his deserts; i.e. is unjust? Even though we might ascribe, assign, or render them as a due from our perspective or point of view?
History reminds us that each man has his breaking point. The Apostle Peter did in the courtyard, as told in the New Testament book of Acts. What was Jesus’s response to a direct denial “I know not the man”by the very man Jesus had ate & and drank with, discipling him for 3 1/2 years. Heck, they even walked on the water together, did the not?
Has Eagle rejected Jesus? Or has he rejected as hypocritical, i.e. the Christianity he has seen others modeling viewed now as sorta bogus?
[Example] Hey, I am the senior pastor of one of the largest churches in the continental United States and I did your sixteen year old daughter a few years ago -- hey I ‘m sorry…, kinda thing…(remember that true story?)
hypocritical Christian behavior? Over the top?
Then picture this: we have this man with an early upbringing in a Catholic household, who later embraced the Mormon faith…leaving that behind…even now searching for truth in a chaotic world.
(Now, I have left out the in-between but you can see the progression of my thoughts.)
Which would you prefer, pity or righteous indignation if you were in his shoes.
*Now take the average IQ of a composite SGM number and double it. That’s Eagle.
See the picture?
I am surprised he came at all?!?
Righteous indignation?
…how about justice with a fair sense of proportion?
Maybe his complaints have arisen out of the undue apportionment of authority and power welded by the churches he has been in attendance; the abuse thereof not withstanding?
Has this man been deprived of a possession?
or has he lost a possession?
Or is it a case of deprivation, of that which grows, decays and come to nothing?
What becomes of the man who misfortune gives drink from a well much polluted? Does he not wither and expire -his hand too weak to drink from a pure source?
Are these the makings of things in appearance, most pitiable?
Has not the Father given Christ Jesus, His Son, to rescue or “redeem” people from sin, and grant them all the privileges of adoption into the family of God? (Gal. 4:4–7). From my ‘cheap seat’, no-one deserves that, which is why receiving Christ’s new life and the rights therein is truly a gift.
Therefore it stands to reason that if as believers, we have received these treasures from God, that we ought to let others know that the same opportunity is available to them?
Try, try, try, try….again?
“I have prayed for you, Peter, that your faith fails not…”
-Jesus
ATB
Sopy
___
Notes: Academic resource(s) : Multiple & adapted. (Used by permission.)
August 4th, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Kris 146
I agree with you. I believe we follow Jesus’ example best when we both share the Good News along with ministering to the physical needs of the lost. That is an example of being a most faithful friend. You don’t have to leave behind one for the other.
August 4th, 2012 at 9:39 pm
Hey Sopy-
I was not picking on you, or meaning to criticize. I was simply noticing how many of the videos were from your links, that’s all.
A friendly poke if you will. I am in no position to criticize those that make good use of media, social or other. My companies are involved
in all facets of such things. Expression in every form is better than oppression in any form.
August 5th, 2012 at 2:14 am
Sop -
No frustration here. I do think that the way you communicate is often way too roundabout for my tastes. You throw out links like they’re subtle jabs, and it ends up looking like a whole lotta spam. But that’s OK. Different strokes, and all that.
The thing is, it seems to me that instead of it being an either/or thing, Eagle’s online interactions with Christians could be more along the lines of both/and. It’s nice that he got attention from the self-proclaimed blog queens. And maybe it’s not such a bad thing, either, that someone else tells him to repent and quit rejecting the truth.
There’s room for both. But people will like what they like. That’s cool with me.
August 5th, 2012 at 6:39 am
Kris, Sopy — ‘For it is God who is at work in us/you/Eagle both to will and to do of (all) His good pleasure’. What anyone else does or says is a part of what God is doing, but ultimately it is He who does what gets done.
Praying for God’s will to be done today throughout our great nation. “Come holy Spirit and speak Lord, for your servants are listening”.
August 5th, 2012 at 12:29 pm
Kris,
Hey,
I concur with the understanding that the body of Christ is diverse. We each have been called. In us He has place His spirit, and is happy to dwell. This in itself has always amazed me. That this Awesome God would care enough to sacrifice Himself for Man, is beyond my comprehension.
It has also amazed my that you & Guy would take the time out of your busy schedules and engaging lives, to minister to those who fortune has not been so promising.
There is not enough thanks in anyone’s book to repay you both for your great contribution to this corner of the Lord’s house. But that does not stop many of those here from trying.
Although my methods are in themselves controversial, my prayers & intercessions for His church are not so much so. If we are called by the Lord we serve, will He not also provide that which is necessary to accomplish His intended purpose?
That is my “hope”.
The Lord has moved heaven & earth under your watch for so many, with the tender care of a hen who gathers her chicks. Far be it for me to criticize your methods.
It is my hope that the Lord will fill you to overflowing -his mighty spirit and direct you continually with His word.
That the dark lord will have none effect.
As we fight not against flesh, may our precious Lord graciously provide you both with the tools that necessitate a sound victory in both “light” and “the release of the captives”.
Please Note: You have never failed to publish my “foolishness”. For that I am in your debt.
To Prayer, To Service…the Lord knows who are His.
In closing, may our Lord keep you in the hollow of His hands, and grant you every success.
Blessings!
In His service,
Sopy
August 5th, 2012 at 12:47 pm
“Lord, You are the home where brokenness finds healing”
*
Oswald,
*
Hey,
*
Your words (#154) and your heart is very precious. I drink in your words and am refreshed. Thank-You!
*
…♪♫♪ “Once again, my words cannot describe You
Once again, I am small beside You Have mercy on me, I am so unworthy Shadow me beneath Your wings.”
*
…♪♫♪ “I was a fool who searched the world for empty places And I was a fool to look beyond your living spaces You are the home where brokenness finds healing I have found where I belong. Abide in me Jesus live here as I wait for you.”
*
…♪♫♪ Abide in me Jesus live here In the place I save just for You Abide in me Jesus draw near As I wait for You. Once again, I am lost without You Once again, there’s no peace without You Have mercy on me, I just want to know You Gather me into Your wings. Abide in me…” - Ana Laura
*
*
Gathering in His name…
*
Blessings!
*
Sopy
August 5th, 2012 at 2:41 pm
Sovereign Grace Church of Apex is continuing its current series on church government, which provides additional insight into the Nathan Sasser/Phil Sasser/Daniel Baker perspective. The 29 July sermon is about bringing charges against elders --
Elders -- Shepherds of God’s Sheep (15 July) — http://sovgracenc.org/teachings/?sermon_id=480
Elders -- Part II (22 July) — http://sovgracenc.org/teachings/?sermon_id=481
When Elders Stumble (29 July) — http://sovgracenc.org/teachings/?sermon_id=482
August 6th, 2012 at 10:43 am
Oz,
As always, the hyper-application of the metaphor. The ultra-literal interpretation. You are sheep, and thus, you are dumb animals who need to be compelled against your stupid natural tendencies. But notice that the thrust of their sermons is always on the “sheep” part of the metaphor, which, in reality is the aspect that should obviously be most LOOSELY applied (for humans are not animals, they are not to be forced to go here or there…which is what shepherds did, as opposed to guide, and they don’t exist for the sole purpose of providing meat and clothing to the shepherds and land owners).
Really, the way that metaphor is most aptly applied is to the PASTOR/ELDER…and notice that whenever Paul or Jesus uses the metaphor he is speaking to the Pastors, not the flock. The church leaders of the day would have understood shepherd as a proper metaphor for their role. The pastoral/herding history of Israel, the humility of the position, the requirement of men with particular patience, an acceptance of their place as men who were not likely to inherit land or fame or riches.
SGM should spend more time preaching this metaphor to THEMSELVES at pastor’s conferences and less time inflicting the flock with their irresponsible, hyper-literal interpretations of what it means to be good, obedient little sheeple.
August 6th, 2012 at 11:38 am
@Argo, 158 — Ding, ding, ding!
Bells went off in my head when I read your post. Brilliant.
So obvious, really, now that you say it, but it is amazing how much brainwashing I have unconsciously absorbed. I am discovering more and more how much my take on certain passages of Scripture has been colored by all the teaching I’ve heard connected with it.
It is so refreshing on the outside now to see Scripture in clearer context.
August 6th, 2012 at 12:14 pm
And I understand how one might argue that the thrust of Daniels first message was to defining shepherd. I assure you this is not the case. This sermon was in service to the authority of the pastor over the sheep, and this can only happen when the sheep understand that pastoring ultimately has nothing to do with them. This is the massive irony of Daniel’s sermon. He says verbatim “it’s all about the sheep”, but if you listen carefully you’ll realize that by his own interpretations, the sheep are utterly incidental to the whole equation. It is only the “work” of the pastor that means anything to God. Never the work of the sheep. Thus, pastors are divinely ordained to occupy a ruling place over the depraved, unable masses, who, by definition of the metaphor of the “sheep” can do nothing for themselves. SGM pastors have successfully convinced themselves that it is really about them and God…not so much you or me.
August 6th, 2012 at 12:25 pm
Argus, I too am amazed how much you can see when you, you know, recognize that you aren’t actually a spiritual imbecile
August 6th, 2012 at 3:44 pm
And here is the thing. Sticking with the “shepherd” theme: not only is it never all about the sheep, it’s really not about the sheep at all. In the profession of shepherding, it is only ever about the sheep insofar as the sheep are able to provide for the economic welfare of the shepherd and the land owner. That is, the sheep’s only intrinsic value is its mutton and wool. Shepherds do none of their shepherding simply out of an interest for the well-being of the sheep apart from their economic value as livestock. That is a fact. No, the sheep were animals in the Bible, and that distinction was never blurred…there was NO equality with the shepherd ever considered or implied. That, of course, would have been ridiculous.
Now, do we think this would apply to the pastor AS shepherd? Of course not. So, in taking the metaphor well beyond its mere tangential meaning, which would have been understood back then to mean “humble, patient, not self-seeking” (THE definition of servant leader, and the metaphor for “feeding”, which is simply giving them the gospel, not telling them how to interpret every verse in the Bible, SGM and New Calvinist pastors make the metaphor effectively their literal JOB description, which is ludicrous. They are NOT shepherds in any sense other than it applies to the attitude they bring to the task. Instead, though they acknowledge the metaphorical sense of the term “pastor”, they bring to it a very literal understanding of what that title says about them (the Man of God — superior spiritual knowledge, revelation, ultimate authority over the “sheep”, divine mandate to pronounce what is and is not orthodox interpretations) and what it says about the sheep (the “animal or beast” — ignorant, prone to wander, incapable of having divine relationship apart from the medium of the pastor, needing to be forced/coerced into order and into “goodness”, needing to be told where to go and what to do..I would add “what to think”, but thinking doesn’t ever enter into the equation for them, you are a sheep). This is why we need to be people who really study the Scriptures…to see if what they preach really, well…really makes sense. We need to be Bereans, yes…and remember, the Bereans? They never acknowledged that Paul was “infallible”. They said, we need to look into this ourselves. They went back and researched all he told them, and they were called NOBLE. Now, I’m not saying that Paul’s writings aren’t divinely inspired, but my point is that if it was not sinful for the Bereans to question Paul, it certainly isn’t sinful that we should question our SGM pastors in ALL they teach. And we should be free to arrive at different conclusions. But we aren’t. Try disagreeing with your pastor’s doctrinal assumption on this or that one time over coffee at starbucks (and I’m not talking whether you should you watch South Park or not; no, I mean, tell him that you no longer want to go to homegroup because you don’t feel it’s biblically supported; tell him you are an Arminian) and see how fast the sheep metaphor turns literal…it will make your head spin. Remember, we are more LITERALLY sheep than figuratively to them.
The metaphor is only a metaphor to them insofar as you don’t walk on all fours and aren’t covered in wool.
August 6th, 2012 at 6:00 pm
(Off Topic)
Be sure and listen to the video Karen Campbell posted on her blog today. Here’s her post. You’ll find the video on the link.
http://www.thatmom.com/2012/08/06/another-reason-to-keep-our-eyes-on-jesus-and-not-man/
August 6th, 2012 at 6:09 pm
Argo -- You are not helping me to be a “Joy” to my Pastors. ;)
The SGM trinity = Spend, Attend, & Obey!
August 6th, 2012 at 9:03 pm
Unassimilated: “Argo — You are not helping me to be a “Joy” to my Pastors.”
Unassimilated,
GOOD!! :-)
August 8th, 2012 at 10:20 am
Understand the foundational thrust of these sermons of Daniel and Phil in Apex: do not expect any real change.
We need to understand that this is what Daniel and Phil are saying. Notice that the sermons all rest on this premise: we are the sole arbiters of TRUE Christian orthodoxy. That is, our interpretations, according to our sound doctrine, are the only correct ones. All others are false doctrines. And thus, we accept as truth that, regardless of how we actually do our jobs, the way we have defined and designed them is categorically biblical and right, and our revelations on Scripture are directly from the Holy Spirit, and thus our interpretations are infallible. So, to effect any real change to polity means that we would have to deny our orthodoxy, or “sound doctrine”, which would be against God. Meaning, THEY are the source of divine revelation and ALL truth. Folks, this is Gnosticism 101.
So, it doesn’t matter that there is story after story, website after website, and a thousand pages of primary source material from Brent D (who was there and who helped DESIGN the doctrinal foundations) and a proven history of pastoral abuse of authority, which indicates a huge, empirical disconnect between the divine “perfection” of the ideas and the disastrous practical outcomes of their application. Nope, as Phil says in the beginning of his sermon, Part II, when you put men in place who are doing our perfect orthodox government right(or if you put them in ANY government, he says…this statement is so, so unsettling I don’t even know how to process it), then everything will be all peaches and roses. See…it’s not the doctrine. Our doctrine is sound. It’s got to be the HUMANS just not getting the stuff right in the depraved places between their ears. If we just got men who thought right, none of this stuff with Brent and Ceej would be happening (the irony is that according to their doctrine, they are right…Brent has no authority to do anything other than submit and obey; that’s all they would have needed to say…if they didn’t think we were such idiots, they could have just said this and avoided all this polity bunk in the first place; but if they didn’t think we were idiots they wouldn’t be keeping to their reformed “sound doctrine”, so…paradox, man).
So, the answer is not to change the polity or to rethink the doctrine…no the answer is to apply MORE control so that we can effect outcomes better; that is, so that we can make sure stupid people get their minds right and DO the right thing and stop getting in the way of our perfect doctrine. See, it’s not that their doctrine is bad. No…they have the monopoly on orthodoxy; it’s just people being sinners. And, you know, shrug, that’s just what we all are (see how this works…they can’t be blamed for any wrong they do! They are just little ol’ sinners, too…boo, hoo. It is quite genius, actually). No need to really change anything. We just need to try better as pastors to get or minds right, and you, the sheep, just need to stop judging and understand that if we fail, we are just sinners like you, and if we succeed, well, we have simply proven our doctrine is indeed correct. But in either case, it’s never the doctrine or our interpretive methods, so you NEVER have any just cause to bring a grievance; you never have any just cause to leave; you never have any just cause to expect any change.
Folks, we need to understand that this speaks volumes about what SGM leaders think of us. Their contempt for people is so thick you can almost plant stuff in it.
August 8th, 2012 at 1:11 pm
Argo #166
You are spot on.
August 8th, 2012 at 3:48 pm
After reading all these comments, I keep wondering what Carolyn ACTUALLY has experienced and what she ACTUALLY feels sometime. If CJ is as proud as his behavior suggests, no matter what Carolyn says or how many books she writes about Biblical womanhood, there’s GOT to be some tension at home on this matter. . . just wondering. . .
August 8th, 2012 at 3:50 pm
If I had to guess, I really think Carolyn has been dealing with this in the marriage but would never say a word about it.
August 8th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Argus 62 -
SS’s activity was not at Kurth’s church but at the other SF Bay Area church which at the time was the only SG church out there. SS had to apolgize there for using language that was disparaging to some ethnic groups. Additionally, sources there say he had a part in the mishandling of staff issues there. This all happened 3-4 years ago.
BTW, the covering over of all wrongs is not limited to SG royalty. At the last college summer camp for SG, in 2008, one of the prominent internationally known speakers at the event had a meltdown in front of the assembled college kiddos and a couple of dozen SG pastors. The outburst was so bad that an SG staffer left the camp crying and drove back to Gburg. Said speaker got a pass …
FWIW,
Former SG Pastor
August 8th, 2012 at 5:39 pm
If Ceej is going to set up shop at an SBC seminary, then be a Southern Baptist. Their President serves a one-year term, and they can serve a maximum of two comsecutive terms. By the way, Southern Baptists believe that the last Apostle died about 1900 years ago (apologies to Ceej-and Brent too), and-get this-congregations are INVOLVED in sending delegates to the convention to elect the President! The heresy!
Real change is not coming until the open-ended reign and the nepotism is eliminated. If CJ doesn’t have the integrity to institute the change, then someone needs to have the intestinal fortitude to. We should trust that God will sovereignly provide leaders once CJ has served and moved on.
August 8th, 2012 at 7:33 pm
FSGP
Was that speaker with the breakdown an SGM associated employee or from the outside? Sad that especially a speaker like that would get a “free pass.”
August 8th, 2012 at 8:06 pm
Callan 169
From close observation over several decades, I never saw one SG pastor’s wife do anything but support and defend her husband. They were also taught to look to their husband’s direction about anything they would do or say.
Any major disagreement, if there was any, was brought behind closed doors. Carolyn was no exception. The closest she ever got to teaching other women to confront their husbands’ sin was mentioned in her, “Watch your Husband” teaching. And, even that teaching was an effort to help husbands avoid public humiliation and ‘degifting’.
Hmm, I wonder if she feels any responsibility for CJ’s public shame and humiliation this year?
August 8th, 2012 at 10:28 pm
Steve240 -
The speaker was from outside SG and this occurred at the Clash conference in 2008.
Former SG Pastor
August 8th, 2012 at 10:54 pm
FSGP
Thanks for clarifying. Was that same outside speaker invited again to speak within SGM somewhere after that?
Just curious. Wouldn’t surprise me if he was a well known person or one who endorsed Mahaney’s books that he would be invited back even after what he did.
August 8th, 2012 at 11:01 pm
I noticed this announcement for the 2012 SGM Pastors’ Conference:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/events/pastors-conference/default.aspx
One unusual thing about this supposed “pastors’ conference” is that this conference “is for pastors and their wives and anyone who hopes to someday be a pastor or church planter.”
I find that unusual that it is open to “anyone.” Perhaps opening this to anyone is way to subsidize the expense of having this conference where they have to pay for the facility vs.when in the past they had it at CLC. If it is speaking only and not having conference discussion sessions then would be OK to have it so open. On the other hand, when has SGM Leadership really listened to the input of those below them on the leadership pyramid.
I am assuming having this open is a new practice. Can anyone confirm this? One would think they would want to restrict this to just pastors for various reasons but as they say additional $’s can always be a factor.
August 9th, 2012 at 8:51 am
“In Plain English”
HowDee YaAll,
I am reminded of a story:
…His name was Fleming, and he was a poor Scottish farmer. One day, while trying to make a living for his family, he heard a cry for help coming from a nearby bog. He dropped his tools And ran to the bog.
There, mired to his waist in black muck, was a terrified boy, screaming and struggling to free himself. Farmer Fleming saved the lad from what could have been a slow and terrifying death.
The next day, a fancy carriage pulled up to the Scotsman’s sparse surroundings. An elegantly dressed nobleman stepped out and introduced himself as the father of the boy Farmer Fleming had saved.
‘I want to repay you,’ said the nobleman. ‘You saved my son’s life.’
‘No, I can’t accept payment for what I did,’ the Scottish farmer replied waving off the offer. At that moment, the farmer’s own son came to the door of the family hovel.
Is that your son?’ the nobleman asked.
Yes,’ the farmer replied proudly.
‘I’ll make you a deal. Let me provide him with the level of education my own son will enjoy If the lad is anything like his father, he’ll no doubt grow to be a man we both will be proud of.’ And that he did.
Farmer Fleming’s son attended the very best schools and in time, graduated from St. Mary’s Hospital Medical School in London, and went on to become known throughout the world as the noted Sir Alexander Fleming, the discoverer of Penicillin.
Years afterward, the same nobleman’s son who was saved from the bog was stricken with pneumonia. What saved his life this time? Penicillin.
The name of the nobleman? Lord Randolph Churchill .. His son’s name?
The Sir Winston Churchill.
*
Do unto others as you would have done unto you?
Hmmm…
…Interesting concept!
(grin)
hahahahahhaha
Sopy
August 9th, 2012 at 1:30 pm
And from speaking with pastors and their wives who left THAT was one of the problems. God did not make every woman like Carolyn and they received pressure to conform to that pattern. . . And not everyone’s child was as compliant as the Mahaney girls either . . .
August 9th, 2012 at 8:27 pm
Perhaps they are now inviting everyone to the Pastors Conference so they can fill up the hall. With the numbers who support CJ/SGM falling it would be embarrassing if a Pastors Conference was held and only a small portion of the seats were filled!
August 9th, 2012 at 8:55 pm
And why would anyone want to go to the Pastors Conference. Oh ya, they have free kool-aid at every session.
.
August 10th, 2012 at 6:40 am
Steve240 -
Yes, the speaker has been back at least once at a major SG function.
I think SG events like the Pastors Conference have been open in the past. I know that there were leadership and pastors conferences that I attended that had folks from outside SG. There are closed meetings like the mandatory formation before T4G but even that had a few observers from outside.
Why would anyone want to attend? A lot of the meetings are mandatory. When I attended the T4G pre-meeting in 2008 my senior pastor/boss complained the whole time about how he HAD to be there. No complaints from him about blowing the congregations money, though …
Cheers,
Former SG Pastor
August 10th, 2012 at 1:21 pm
Callan -as one of those non-Carolyn-ish wives…..always thought that was one of our reasons for my dear Defender NOT getting “promoted”! He was too good to me!
However it seems that when it comes to handling the more non-compliant children the Mahaneys didn’t do all that great with their own son’s high school years, did they?
The whole sociopath concept keeps ringing back in my brain with regards to Mahaneys. Anyone else remember a conference in CO where Carolyn talked about being pregnant, nauseous & hungry, and driving from MD to Richmond and CJ NOT being willing to pull over and buy his pregnant wife some food because he himself wasn’t hungry? Who else was at that meeting on “Hannah” and was horrified at that one? If CJ is a sociopath or at the least a narciccist it would answer her not being cared for because he wasn’t hungry.
August 10th, 2012 at 4:10 pm
I remember Carolyn telling the story about them as newly marrieds, and he would spend all day Sundays preaching then talking with people through lunchtime, and she would be starving but he would not be hungry so she would miss lunch. She excused him by saying that they were young and he just didn’t know how to care for a wife. I have never been to Colorado, and the details are different, so it seems like it took him a long time to learn how to “care for a wife” if we have both newly and pregnancy missing lunch stories.
August 10th, 2012 at 4:26 pm
I think your stories are very telling QE2 and Defended. Thank you for sharing. . .
August 11th, 2012 at 10:10 pm
Interesting comments about Carolyn.
I know a narcissist/sociopath and he treats his wife and kids similar.
I guess it’s the marks of such.
Can a narcissist/sociopath change? I’ve read “yes” and I’ve read “no.”
August 11th, 2012 at 11:56 pm
A Kindred Spirit 185
I think selfish spouses are sometimes ‘enabled’ by extremely unselfish spouses.
However, I believe, if the unselfish spouse can learn to confront their spouse is their selfish behavior, change can happen more readily.
Carolyn has had a habit of excusing CJ’s neglect and insensitivity and he has no clue how domineering he is.
This is one area Josh and CJ dramatically differ. Josh is significantly more sensitive and caring of Shannon.
August 12th, 2012 at 9:32 am
Thanks, Persona. I agree.
Folks would accuse people of speculation with Carolyn and CJ, but people’s speculation comes from years of observing the two of them and knowledge of what the various symptoms of a narcissist/sociopath/extremely-selfish-person look like, and what the marriage of such a match looks like. No, we can’t know for certain, but if it looks and acts like a duck, those who are in a position to do so ought to move in a little closer for a better look and address it if it definitely appears to be a duck, for both CJ and Carolyn’s sakes.
It’s amazing, isn’t it…how so many pastors that have risen to power in recent years suffer from such -- celebrity pastors with massive followings. Seems like I read of one being exposed and biting the dust every few months now.
August 12th, 2012 at 5:29 pm
New Brent post up
August 12th, 2012 at 5:52 pm
And he used the “C” word….my goodness
August 12th, 2012 at 6:18 pm
Used it like a Boss…well a former Boss.
http://favim.com/image/120346/
August 13th, 2012 at 6:54 am
I know (from comments and other reader feedback I’ve received over the years) that any discussion of CJ’s and Carolyn’s personal lives together provokes an intriguing variety of responses.
Some folks -- this would include a lot of our male readers -- see these conversations and just sort of glaze over with disinterest. Some feel like we have no business talking about what their relationship might really be like. Some think all SGM pastors’ personal lives have little to do with SGM’s larger issues.
I can see how people might come to those conclusions. But I would disagree that the actual quality of CJ’s and Carolyn’s relationship, or how they really interact with each other and feel about each other, is irrelevant to SGM’s dysfunction. I think it’s all kinds of relevant.
For one thing, the Mahaneys have created something of a brand identity out of their marriage and the way they relate to one another. Carolyn Mahaney has a nice little following solely because of the fact that she’s CJ’s wife and has come to be viewed as the go-to person for “Biblical Womanhood.” CJ himself has repeatedly brought their personal lives into his teachings, frequently citing himself and his wife as examples of what to do and how to be. They obviously see themselves as role models and believe that it is appropriate -- even necessary -- for pastors to put their wives and their successful marriages and families on public display, for people to use as inspiration.
So I think it matters, big time, what they’ve said over the years about their relationship, and how it really might be in real life, behind closed doors.
That being said, it strikes me that Carolyn is likely Enabler-In-Chief when it comes to CJ’s overblown sense of his own importance. The way she and her daughters and their husbands all reacted to CJ’s “season of reflection” last year shows us how unable or unwilling they are to step outside the comfortable lives CJ’s power and fame has provided for them and really see and speak the truth to him.
I can understand why it would be difficult. After so many years of putting in her time, standing by her man, gazing submissively and admiringly at him, and basking in his reflected glory, Carolyn has just as much to lose through any loss of influence as does CJ himself. So do his daughters and sons-in-law.
So I think there’s probably a huge gap between what CJ’s supporters believe about the Mahaney family’s private interactions and what really goes on behind closed doors. I can imagine that they are all, to varying degrees, in major amounts of denial about what CJ is really like, and what his problems really are. Who’d want to get off the Mahaney gravy train, anyway? There are still enough loyal followers out there that will “gift” them reduced-rate (or perhaps even free) beachfront vacation homes and whatnot, and provide them with influential internships and special breaks at seminary, and keep the ministry funds and the book deals flowing their way.
It would take a tremendous amount of objectivity and character and a huge willingness to experience personal discomfort and loss in order to see the truth and speak it. After entire lifetimes of living under CJ’s thumb and deferring to him (because that’s the only way to live out “biblical womanhood,” after all), the women in CJ’s life probably honestly believe what he’s taught them. They all have some degree of Stockholm Syndrome.
But I bet he’s just as autocratic and full of himself in private as he was in the glimpses of his behavior that we got from Brent’s documents.
August 13th, 2012 at 9:03 am
Kris, I agree with everything you said.
CJ has a “heart” issue and it’s reflected in EVERYTHING he does…that would include his marriage to Carolyn.
Proverbs 27:19
As water reflects a face, so a man’s heart reflects the man.
Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
Luke 6:45
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
Matthew 15:18
But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’
Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
Mark 7:21-22
For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
August 13th, 2012 at 9:07 am
Fascinating insight into Brent in his latest post: I have concerns over his integrity in his accusations of Mickey Connolly and cult-like tendencies etc.
He claims Mickey abuses the Scriptures, and then says this to a member of CWCC -- “God commands you to pursue justice [Prov 18:17].” He repeats this in an e-mail to another CWCC member who had e-mailed him asking him to stop corresponding with them. (One in which he claims to be a watchman in the manner of Ezekiel)
Two issues arise -- firstly, the Proverb is not a command from God, it is an observed ‘norm’ in life passed on from a King to his son as wisdom for his role in judging disputes. It is immoral of Brent to claim Mickey abuses the Scriptures as long as he is doing so himself.
Secondly, the claim to be a watchman in the manner of Ezekiel is proof-texting at best and deception at worse, since this side of the Cross the question of whose blood is to be spilt over which sin is answered only in Jesus. So whether Brent warns people or not, he will not be judged in the manner that Ezekiel was warned of since Jesus’ blood was spilt for Brent, and he does not need to add to that sacrifice.
Brent is in poor taste at best, and at worst he is worthy of the claim of divisive behaviour, if he continues to contact people who have asked him to stop.
The great sadness I feel is that the man had a point, one that has far too easily been missed by the watching world because of his questionable choices and manner -- if he would just point the finger at himself and say the control, manipulation, sin-sniffing and other practices are laid at his feet as well as the other A-team members etc, he would get more of a hearing in most quarters than as at present.
Here’s hoping the CLC reforms prove who has responded rightly to the discipline of God here.
August 13th, 2012 at 10:50 am
How is contacting someone who has asked you to stop contacting them “divisive”? It might be disrespectful, obnoxious and importunate, but I’m not seeing divisive. In fact, it would seem that the one who has cut off discussion (“Don’t contact me.”) has been divisive, placing a barrier between himself and another.
I probably shouldn’t get into this, as I don’t follow what Brent writes, but that stood out to me in Gareth mcnab’s post. You should be able to listen to someone whether you like his choices and manner or not. We should be more concerned with substance than style. That is something that has always impressed me with this blog.
August 13th, 2012 at 11:03 am
Gareth @193 -
Many men can be accused of the same actions. Scripture is being used throughout the Christian realm for people to throw darts at one another and to subjugate people to obedience to leaders. This is not the purpose of Scripture. It is quite sad to see this. We saw Satan try to use Scripture this way when Jesus was tested. The Pharisees also used scripture this way.
I agree that Brent has something to say, but he has yet to say publicly and to the entire movement that he was part of the bigger problem. I don’t think he sees that he is part of the bigger problem that affected the entire movement. For Brent, the error is a moral failing with individual leaders and not a misuse of Scripture that resulted in heavy handed authority by leaders and a minimizing of people (who are filled with the Holy Spirit and made in the image of God) to subjects that need to submit to the man above them. Jesus warned his disciples about leading like this.
August 13th, 2012 at 11:12 am
Reminder, gentle readers: the Mahaneys received a huge promotion by DesiringGod/JPiper at the 2004 DG conference where the M’s addressed elective her/his sessions on “Sex, Romance, and the Glory of God”.
I still can’t figure out why the RBDs associate and promote this dysfunction.
Scratching my head,
Former SG Pastor
August 13th, 2012 at 11:37 am
RE: FSGP
It will be interesting to see the Louisville chapter unfold.
August 13th, 2012 at 11:50 am
If an individual who has received the documents etc is choosing to remain part of CWCC and wants to submit to the leaders’ authority (rightly or wrongly, and whatever that may mean) and asks in the way that this person has asked (see Brent’s blog to see what I mean) -- It is profoundly disrespectful to that person to continue to pursue them in the manner in which Brent is admitting to in his own blog post. That is surely the behaviour that Mickey et al are labelling divisive.
I did not believe Brent deserved the label when CWCC first came out and told the church not to listen to him; but if he is still actively pursuing members of the congregation not only against the will of the leaders, but also against the will of those he is pursuing, then he is demonstrating that he is deserving of that label.
Bridget -- many men may be accused of the same -- but that doesn’t excuse Brent from being judged by the same measure with which he judges (judge not, lest you be judged? speck in brother’s eye and log in own?) -- he cannot accuse Mickey in the way that he has and abuse the Scriptures himself. He has lost any moral high ground that he once had, and I fear that the effectiveness of his arguments, that I think would have done the churches good, have been forever compromised by this.
Rose -- the person who says no thank you to further contact is not being divisive from the point of view of the unity and integrity of a particular local church. I accept that they may appear divisive to any potential relationship with the person they are asking to stop contacting them, but that was not the context of my argument.
I am developing the same reaction to Brent as I have to SGM as represented here and in other blogs -- :In-pain: If an individual who has received the documents etc is choosing to remain part of CWCC and wants to submit to the leaders’ authority (rightly or wrongly, and whatever that may mean) and asks in the way that this person has asked (see Brent’s blog to see what I mean) -- It is profoundly disrespectful to that person to continue to pursue them in the manner in which Brent is admitting to in his own blog post. That is surely the behaviour that Mickey et al are labelling divisive.
I did not believe Brent deserved the label when CWCC first came out and told the church not to listen to him; but if he is still actively pursuing members of the congregation not only against the will of the leaders, but also against the will of those he is pursuing, then he is demonstrating that he is deserving of that label.
Bridget -- many men may be accused of the same -- but that doesn’t excuse Brent from being judged by the same measure with which he judges (judge not, lest you be judged? speck in brother’s eye and log in own?) -- he cannot accuse Mickey in the way that he has and abuse the Scriptures himself. He has lost any moral high ground that he once had, and I fear that the effectiveness of his arguments, that I think would have done the churches good, have been forever compromised by this.
Rose -- the person who says no thank you to further contact is not being divisive from the point of view of the unity and integrity of a particular local church. I accept that they may appear divisive to any potential relationship with the person they are asking to stop contacting them, but that was not the context of my argument.
I am developing the same reaction to Brent as I have to SGM as represented here and in other blogs -- yuk does not do it justice
August 13th, 2012 at 11:59 am
@FSGP #181 -- “When I attended the T4G pre-meeting in 2008 my senior pastor/boss complained the whole time about how he HAD to be there.”
With coming polity changes, it will be interesting to see if SGM churches are required to send a pastor to these conferences or if it will be optional. Unless the pastors are voting on denominational matters (which has never been the case in the past), I wouldn’t think attendance should be mandatory.
August 13th, 2012 at 12:28 pm
Gareth -
No excusing on my part at all. I think all leaders that do this are wrong. You may have read something into what I said.
You can’t assume that everyone has read the docs, though, and then still decided to stay. Some people have read nothing because they do whatever the pastor says, or they just don’t want to read the docs. BUT that is their choice as well.
Brent is not going to change anyone’s perspective by force. I would think that Brent would know this.
August 13th, 2012 at 1:11 pm
Shifting gears here but, has anyone heard about Joel Harris (Josh’s brother) getting into SBTS? Josh tweeted that this week. I wonder how that will effect Joshua’s relationship with SGM and SBTS?
August 13th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
@Persona #201 -- So maybe he could become an intern at CJ’s church plant. :Wink:
I really can’t see how that would have any bearing on Josh’s relationship with CJ/SGM/SBTS or anything else.
August 13th, 2012 at 2:03 pm
gareth….
I certainly agree that when a person asks you to desist, it is basic good manners to respect their boundaries. ( obviously there are exceptions to this such as when they are engaging in criminal actions and you are intervening, or something like that). I also think Bridget hit the nail on the head that Brent just sees this as moral sin with CJ and crew, and does not appear to recognize the entire shepherding error teachings that were promoted for 30 years, as being wrong, and his own apostleship as often behaving sinfully.
But I thought the interchange with this Alicia person was a joke. I mean obviously what she wanted was to give him a piece of her mind and not allow him to respond back to her rant. Come on, really. If all she wants is no more emails, you just click the “junk” label at the top and you will never get another email in your inbox from this addy again. But she didn’t want to delete him from the acceptable contacts list, she WANTED TO CONTACT HIM so she could chew him out. She’s just asking for a reply.
If you don’t want to talk to a stalker, you don’t look at their name on the phone ID and pick up the phone to tell them how much you want them to never call you again and why. What game are we playing here? Alicia didn’t want no contact, what she wanted was one way contact where she could tell Brent off. I mean really. Does she not know how to set up her inbox so she won’t get his letters? I am a computer moron myself and even I know that. She didn’t want no Brent emails, she wanted to fling her opinion at him.
What a joke. The ones who want no contact with Brent just don’t answer him, period, nothing.
August 13th, 2012 at 4:46 pm
How is Brent’s attitude toward Alicia any different from Mickey’s approach to CrossWay? From what I can tell, they’re both saying, “I know what’s best for you, you poor brainless soul.”
I suppose he doesn’t care because he thinks this is all part of a high calling on his life, but Brent keeps providing more and more fodder for the lawsuits that are sure to follow this whole mess. If nothing else, his response to Alicia borders on harrassment and is good grounds for an injunction or a TRO at least.
August 13th, 2012 at 7:22 pm
Whirlwind 202
Connections are everything in SGM world.
And, due to their secrecy, public announcements such as these are really the only thing we have to go on, unless of course, Brent publishes private emails.
The placement of Joshua’s brother could explain why Joshua remains chummy with Al Mohler and one reason he has gone to such great lengths to cover over his offense with CJ et al.
The thing I don’t understand is why Joel would want to study at SBTS when there are lots of other seminaries and the Harris family are not Baptists.
August 13th, 2012 at 8:12 pm
FYI: Grace Community Church (Sarasota/Bradenton) has disappeared from the list of churches on the SGM website. Their website used to say “We are a local Sovereign Grace Ministries church in the Sarasota/Bradenton area of Florida.” Now it says “We are a non-denominational church in the Sarasota/Bradenton area of Florida.” http://www.gccnet.org/#/welcome
August 13th, 2012 at 10:14 pm
Moniker -- correct. They decided to leave the fold around the same time the Virginia church did. Very brave and bold move of the pastor to do so. They are a very small, yet thriving body. Their established friendships with the SGM churches in Florida remain, yet they are no longer a part of SGM.
August 13th, 2012 at 10:24 pm
Patrick, thank you for the clarification on Grace. My husband just noticed the same thing tonight and read the same thing out loud, wonderfing what changed. Do you know or does anyone know if they sent SGM formal notice? I’m assuming they did privately.
August 13th, 2012 at 11:00 pm
http://web.archive.org/web/20100920231711/http://www.gccnet.org/
Here’s an archived version of their home page from 2010, it says
“Welcome to the Grace Community Church website. We are a local Sovereign Grace Ministries church in the Sarasota/Bradenton area of Florida.
There ya go, confirmed
August 14th, 2012 at 5:50 am
re: FSGP
When we know just why CJ is promoted by his little coterie, I think we will understand the core dynamics to this whole thing. . .
August 14th, 2012 at 6:06 am
Wiser……
I do not know how the Bradenton church officially gave notice, but I do know how that decision was finally made. All the Florida churches agreed to sign the ‘letter’ the Ken Maresco created giving a mandate to CJ, SGM (the Empire of Dirt), and Crew. They all signed it on the Monday before EOD (Empire of Dirt) announce on a Thursday that they made an official decision to stand by and keep CJ. The next day most of the Florida church pastors wanted out that following weekend……but because they signed the letter they decided to let the process of the parameters of that letter play out, giving them basically time to leave. Luan forgot to sign the letter, or just didn’t think he needed to, thus giving the Bradenton church a quicker exit.
All that to say……a handful of the Florida churches are on their way out, just giving EOD time to process the ‘letter’ they signed. Also, some of the pastors had family meetings the Sunday before EOD announced CJ to stay, and in those family meetings described the ‘letter’s intent. So, it would have been a shock to the members of these churches that the following week they were out of EOD. Which I agree could have caused some confusion.
August 14th, 2012 at 7:21 am
callan said,
I’ve thought about this for a long time. Barring some sort of inter-organization Brent Detwiler figure publishing emails and blowing the lid off of things, we’ll probably never see definitive proof of what really went on to make CJ gain so much influence so quickly with the Reformed Big Dogs. But I think we can make some educated guesses, based upon what we do know.
A key clue, of course, is CJ’s (and/or SGM’s?) donations to the SBTS. CJ gave something over $100,000 to the SBTS over the span of just a couple of years. We know this because his name appeared on a list of donors (a list put out by SBTS with its official documents), and within just a year’s time, CJ moved from one category on the list to a higher threshold (of donors who gave more than $100k).
Some may argue that donations like this are something of a formality, a social nicety among big-name leaders, a sort of “one hand washes the other” kind of thing. I don’t know if SGM releases a similar list, but even if the organization did so, I doubt we’d see Al Mohler’s name as a donor. In other words, I doubt the money flowed in both directions -- I doubt Mohler gave Sovereign Grace Ministries a lot of financial support. (If anyone knows differently, please jump in and correct me.)
So CJ and Mohler have some sort of tentative friendship, and almost immediately (within a few years of the two men’s names being linked), CJ becomes one of Mohler’s organization’s more significant donors. It’s not rocket science to surmise the effect that fact would have on their relationship, whatever that may be.
(Me personally? I highly doubt the two guys are anything beyond back-slapping business acquaintances who may have had some interesting exchanges backstage while waiting their turns to speak at various conferences…but who are certainly nothing like the bosom buddies some people imagine them to be, like how CJ tried to portray their relationship when he talked a few years back about how great it was to be hanging out with the RBDs, sitting around laughing and “correcting each other.” Like the RBDs were his BFF accountability partners or something, like they were in a position to “correct” him. Like they were -- unlike anyone else within SGM -- actually able to “speak into his life” and confront him in his wrongdoings. Um, no. Just no. Given the celeb Christian leaders’ tight schedules and the huge demands on their own individual ministries, and the fact that they don’t interact in person beyond the occasions when they’re dealing with CBMW board meetings or speaking at conferences, there’s just no way that they could have developed friendships that are deep enough to include confrontation and correction.)
But it’s interesting that CJ’s rise in influence was accompanied by a rise in donations.
It’s not just money, exactly, either. I think CJ exudes some sort of weird charm that makes people want to be in his good graces. I’ve never felt it or understood it personally, but apparently people think he is funny and entertaining, and that his teachings tug on people’s heartstrings or something. The RBDs typically have been known for their less-than-charismatic, less-than-humorous, less-than-entertaining presentation style. They were probably attracted to CJ for the new dimension his frantic and emotive style could bring to their
stage performancesconferences. It’s sort of like why the class brain likes being around the class clown.So there was money, and there was CJ’s personal charm. Then there is the simple matter of pride. If these guys were to back away from CJ now, that would be a tacit admission that they’d made a major mistake with him. They’re just not going to do that. I think in their minds, there’s just too much at risk.
No, barring some sort of whistle-blowing, we’ll never know for certain what drove (and continues to drive) the RBDs to stick with CJ. But it’s not difficult to imagine the dynamics of their relationships.
August 14th, 2012 at 7:21 am
Just for fun, I went back and found this comment:
August 14th, 2012 at 8:01 am
Maybe the “correcting” had to do with whether one sport was more manly than another, or who would win the championship or something.
Different subject-I had noticed over the years that Brent was always a “stuffed shirt”. Then a few years before he got canned he began to try to add some humor when he spoke. I remember at a Celebration he mentioned that CJ was funny and he was not but he was growing in that area. I think it’s amusing to see Brent being “funny” in his current emails and blog posts. Although he usually comes across as being sarcastically looney.
August 14th, 2012 at 9:33 am
Kris-
I was at the celebration where Piper first preached, and as far as I know it was one of his first encounters with PDI and CJ. 1995 maybe, give or take a year. Some weeks after, CJ played an audio at church Sunday (chortling about the praise from Piper) where Piper was telling (I believe his own church) about how he had been asked to speak at this itty bitty little denomination and how great the worship was. As I recall that was during a brief year or so of genuine HS refreshing (and no, I am not into Toronto or Howard Browne. But there was a refreshing going on.) To give credit where credit is due, I have no reson to think the worship was not every bit as good as Piper said, and I am sure it fed and blessed his own soul.
Piper was astute enough to say something publically that weekend (adressed to CJ himself) about paying more attention and interest to world missions. So he wasn’t at that point drinking kool aid.
This was all right about when Grudem’s Systematic Theology came out. Grudem hit the nation big time. It is in Reformed churches and Seminaries, despite being Baptist and Continuationist( charismatic w/o the crazy stuff). It made theology so accessible to the layman. If you’ve read other STs they are more through, but Grudem was just perfect for the Reformed Community- not too intimidating and soundly Calvinist and not dispensationalism. Plus of course complementarian. Because Piper and others believe that egalitarianism (women can be pastors, etc) is based on a hermeneutic that leads to liberalism, it is a big deal and not just a normal nonessential like say polity discussions.
Anyway, Piper took a stand for the continuation of spiritual gifts in a Grudemite way- like non canonical prophecy. Apart from a very few lone voices like Vern Poythress at Westminster TS, there was pretty much only the total cessationist postition in Refomed circles. People who read history know that Spurgeon and men who wrote the Westminster Confession believed in words of knowledge and prophecy (Spurgeons own operation in gifts is pretty neat to read about). Things have changed a lot the past 15 years or so, and in many PCA churches such as in Keller’s presbytery, cessationism/tongues is not even an issue at all; even a church elder can pray in private tongues.
But anyway, in the 90s, that attraction of being Refomed and Charismatic was huge. Gigantic. If you wanted to be Calvinist and also believed in gifts, there was nowhere else to go. The few groups that claimed to be both were either very charismatic (Virgo with Toronto blessing churches) or dispensational. That pretty much left SGM. Here and there I hear of a lone church that tries to be both, but nobody has done what CJ did on a denominational level, or let’s say claimed to do.
By the time we left, having a good grasp of theology and an early charismatic background, it was obvious that PDI was neither Reformed in practice or charismatic in practice. It was top down control and legalism, classic 70s shepherding. But the way they talked from the front and to the Big Dogs, well, I can see why Piper was sucked in. Same reason we wanted to join.
If Grudem had started a denomination maybe everything would have been different the past 18 years or so. But he didn’t, and CJ became the poster boy for a Calvinism with an openess to the very real power and presence of the Holy Spirit. If you were actually in it, after a while you saw that it was a distorted Calvinism with the very real power and presence of Mahaney. But you had to be in it to see it I think.
I also think these men at the top had help, dark spiritual help. CJ in himself just isn’t what normally impresses the Reformed community. I mean, Carl Trueman for example? Carl is a genius. That mesmerizing ability might just be flesh, but I think there is more. A false apostle masquerading as a good guy…Paul calls them servants of Satan. 2 Cor 11…”enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face”.
We all need to pray. The infection has spread so far beyond SGM.
August 14th, 2012 at 9:43 am
I have always appreciated the teachings about these Scriptures
Yet, I do believe I saw them ‘twisted around’. Care Group Leaders would ‘search’ for things to correct someone about about, and it got to be anytime at all someone started to say something complimentary to you, you knew it would be followed by some sort of ‘correction’! I always ‘received’ the teachings concerning correction each other to be more of a natural thing-that when tempted to ‘take the easy route’ with a friend, by telling a ‘white lie’, it is not really ‘being their friend’. If a friend complains about how they were treated, I will not necessarily just pat them on the back, and encourage them in licking their wounds, I will truthfully have compassion, but also help them to find a solution-perhaps something they can change with their own reaction, to help improve the situation, or at least help[ them re-frame their attitude so that they can release bitterness and move on in life. THAT, to me, is what these Scriptures speak of! Not “No, no no, let me ‘correct you’ on who is the best basketball player”, or the other jokes CJ uses to speak of ‘correcting’ with his buddies. If one exemplifies a teaching with a joke, it is funny, but was what should have been ‘imparted’ successfully done, or do people remember the joke, and then flounder around to follow the ambiguous example, often with a wrong interpretation? That is kind of how it seemed to me back then, I dont know how others felt because I never really discussed this back then.
August 14th, 2012 at 12:36 pm
Kris 212
I totally agree with you about the money (and gifts) CJ has lavished on people in the Reformed world. And there are many more stories besides his donations to the SBTS.
CJ sent a new computer to a leader in Cuba and one in Philly. I believe he was in the CCEF. He gave very generously to many churches. We were there the day he gave a custom football helmet to RC Sproul. There were many other expensive gifts given to leaders who came to preach at CLC. There were also huge baskets of treats left in the hotels of those who came to ‘serve’ at CLC or SGM. Generosity with members’ donations, is a hallmarks of SGM.
We probably heard of a fraction of the gifts given by CJ. He never asked for input from the congregation or reported the gifts in any public, itemized fashion. We heard about them as an aside and saw a few. But, I doubt that many Christian organizations lavish gifts, en par with SGM. They really know how to ‘love bomb’ their comrades in the Reformed community. That would have to be one of the bigger incentives to retain the good graces of Mahaney.
Another incentive to keep CJ on your side, would be fear. CJ bullies and busts on others until they agree with him. In this, he typically uses humor but, at other times, chiding and outright threats are used. He wrestles his opponents until they are too fatigued to fight back.
I think the only area the Big Dogs may try to correct CJ, is in his theology. Even then, I am sure CJ tries hard to sway them to agree with him. It is a fool’s errand to try and correct CJ on anything of substance.
Brent found that out too late.
August 14th, 2012 at 3:26 pm
Kris -
In Brent’s latest post, in the midst of his (correct, I think) excoriation of Mickey Connolly, he writes: “I am Mickey’s best friend but somehow that fact escapes his notice!”
I find this very weird. Your mention, in #213, of their interpretation of faithful friends wounding each other, brings some clarity. The more you wound, the better friend you are. The Marquis de Sade might agree. Brings a new dimension to “With friends like you…”
Interesting that Brent refers to friendship as a “fact.” In some sense it is, but a lot of those ambiguous things called “feelings” enter into it. I guess Brent crunched the data and left those out.
I know from experience that you cannot be friends with someone you don’t respect, and it seems clear to me that these two do not respect each other -- maybe in the past, but not now.
It’s particularly worrisome when someone who spent many years as a church leader is apparently clueless as to what constitutes friendship, and, most likely, about other human relationships.
August 14th, 2012 at 3:48 pm
JeffB (218)- I agree! When I read that, I thought, “With a friend like that, who needs enemies?” Crazy stuff!
August 14th, 2012 at 4:23 pm
One thing is for sure in SGM. They have their own definitions for a lot of words and concepts that most of us wouldn’t understand, much less agree with. “Faithful are the wounds of a friend” somehow morfs into “a friend’s MAIN purpose is to wound you, tear you down, and then tell you to look to the cross.” What in the world is their definition of love, and how do they show it?
August 14th, 2012 at 7:01 pm
WHAT’S NEW AT COVENANT FELLOWSHIP? JUST THOUGHT I’D ASK SINCE I’M ABOUT TO GET ON MY KNEES!
August 14th, 2012 at 8:56 pm
5Years @216: Oh how well I remember that Celebration where Piper spoke. I also remember well the Care Group leaders meeting following that Celebration where our Pastor (yeah, you know who you are) did some MAJOR backpeddling away from Pipers exhortation to all the young people to really consider seriously World Missions, and how didn’t quite represent the SGM view of things. Oh gee, those were the day :Yes-Sir: s.
August 14th, 2012 at 9:35 pm
The “faithful friends” topic has come up before. Here is a comment from awhile back where I shared some thoughts:
August 15th, 2012 at 11:29 am
Rick:
A pastors college student also told me that CJ tried very hard to dissuade Piper from giving that missions message.
August 15th, 2012 at 2:38 pm
Hey, stop it!
SG is all about world missions. Their 2 recent acquisitions in California prove it. They had a church in the San Francisco area suburbs that was almost exclusively Asian. This church met in the building of another evangelical church. The other church stood out for its ethnic diverity. The SG church moved to a more affluent suburb a couple of years ago. I think the banner that they hang out offers this welcome: “This sign says ya got to have a membership card to get inside”.
The San Francisco church leader(s) bragged about how SG was spending $500k over 3 years to plant a Gospel-centered church in SF. That church met in another church’s building, too, until somehow SG ended up with the building.
Dave Harvey has braved the wilds of the San Francisco and San Diego areas to give $10K checks to churches there within the last couple of years. Those funds can go to purchasing sorely needed items like Starbucks for Sunday mornings and vital literature from PeaceMakers and CCEF.
My contacts in CA (and elsewhere in the Kingdom of CJ) have pretty much dried up. They are too busy spreading the Gospel to the heathen in the pew next to them.
As for faithful friends, among the words I disliked most while in SG were “I want to speak truth to you” or “speaking the truth in love”. My simple brain rewired itself to translate these euphemisms into a single instruction: “duck”. As in “duck and cover”.
Yeah, I ducked. I ducked right out.
Swimming freely now,
Former SG Pastor
August 15th, 2012 at 3:29 pm
FSGP,
Compare to this: http://youtu.be/qhhjDWrTKU0
August 15th, 2012 at 4:43 pm
I did a little searching around the Bradenton church’s web site.
Under the What to Expect / Statement of Faith link, you’ll find:
My first thought: “Under Construction? Ya think?”
Under the Learn More / Our Leadership link, if your scroll down to the bottom you’ll find:
Wow. You mean the paid pastor/elder/deacon isn’t an all-in-one super Holy Ghost anointed discernment and guidance man?
Rock on, Bradenton.
August 15th, 2012 at 6:45 pm
“They are too busy spreading the Gospel to the heathen in the pew next to them”
Lol. I had a good laugh over that one.
August 15th, 2012 at 7:24 pm
You should see the look on the face of a Christian “outsider” when an SGMer leans over at a local sports event and proceeds to “speak some truth into his life” while the game’s going on.
Priceless!!
I observed it more than once. I got to wondering if CrossWay was rewarding members with those little gold stick-on stars.
August 15th, 2012 at 9:25 pm
Does anyone know where I can find more information about the shepherding movement and its hallmarks? A link or article?
Also, does anyone know approximately how many former SGM pastors contribute to this blog? I have found reading someone who knows the system well very helpful to me, at least the ones who identify themselves as so. Just curious, Thanks,
August 15th, 2012 at 10:20 pm
Hey Jim --
Interesting vid. If I had come across FChan (or the like) could be I’d still be an evangelical.
Oh, the perils of following the wrong Bald Guy.
I was blinded by the reflection, I was -
Former SG Pastor
August 15th, 2012 at 10:27 pm
Thanks for that link Jim….Mr. Chan seems likes a good dude
August 15th, 2012 at 11:23 pm
Google the guy. Megachurch celeb pastor walks away to minister to the poor. Sells a boatload of books, but doesn’t receive royalties.
I’m not looking for someone to follow, but I’m humbled by his example.
August 16th, 2012 at 7:38 am
Wizer #230
This article provides a good overview of shepherding movement practices. There is a nice little nugget at the end. A prize to the first person who spots it.
This issue of New Wine Magazine from March 1974 has an article by Charles Simpson called Making Disciples that you may also find helpful.
August 16th, 2012 at 7:56 am
ExCCKer, couldn’t resist looking at the article and trying for the prize. Could the nugget be in this paragraph?
While Christian Growth Ministries, Crossroads, and Maranatha are among the most prominent of the shepherding organizations, there are many others. Most of these are self-contained; that is, they retain the internal sheep-shepherd structure, but may or may not include the pyramidal hierarchy that culminates in a nationwide or international organization. Among these groups are “Gathering of Believers,” led by Larry Tomczak; Carl Stevens’ “The Bible Speaks,” Hobart Freeman’s “Faith Assembly;” “Last Days Ministries,” founded by the late Keith Green; “University Bible Fellowship;” and “Champaign-Urbana Ministries.”
Ya know, my parents met, married, and had a bunch of kids in a cult in the mid-70′s (in West Virginia), and escaped in the early 80′s. When I started going to CLC, they had serious concerns about it, and said it felt cult-like to them (this was when I first started attending in 2000). I shoulda listened to them! What is that saying about how your parents get smarter as you get older??????…….
August 16th, 2012 at 8:40 am
Two Feet Out you are the winner! Here is your prize:
:Congratulations:
August 16th, 2012 at 8:55 am
Congratulations, Two Feet Out.
Articles from a google search on shepherding will frequently reference “Gathering of Believers” and Larry Tomczak. CJ was right there with him, he just wasn’t as popular as Tomczak at the time.
August 16th, 2012 at 9:20 am
Jim -
Forgive me for being skeptical. But I am. All these guys look good on video. In blogs. Endorsing each other books. Refer to “Mahaney CJ”.
Former SG Pastor
August 16th, 2012 at 9:20 am
I first learned of Francis Chan from my kids. Chan is a popular speaker at the Passion Conference. The college kids LOVE him!
I’ve grown cynical of “big conferences” and those that speak at them. I haven’t researched much about the guy because I have grown so cynical about such…so many of these conferences are ran by or linked to the same “bunch”.
As the sheep become more educated I’m hoping the big conferences will die and all the big profits will cease. Chan sounds like a “good guy” -- if he is, God will provide for him and his ministry in other ways.
August 16th, 2012 at 9:23 am
FSGP, we were posting at the same time.
August 16th, 2012 at 10:19 am
AKS, also have become very cynical and suspicious of all the big name preacher/author types out there. Like politicians, they may start out with good intentions and the desire to serve, but the addictive nature of power and popularity is almost impossible to resist.
August 16th, 2012 at 10:52 am
Two Feet Out @ 235,
Interesting…I used to live right near a “Bible Speaks” church and Christian School in South Berwick, ME. I had considered sending my child to Christian school there, but people in the area were saying it was cultish so I never really checked into it seriously.
August 16th, 2012 at 1:12 pm
AKS re:239 -
Hence, AKS … ;^)
Cheers,
Former SG Pastor
August 16th, 2012 at 8:25 pm
I haven’t read through all the comments but I have a concern that I have never seen addressed… I don’t know what the answer is, but honestly, the idea of churches leaving doesn’t thrill me. I am very anti-sgm… they sicken me. I spent far too many years of my life there and will never, ever go back. Not even to a church that used to be a part and has left. I want to be forgiving and I know that people can change and grow, but I also know how ingrained the sgm way becomes and have little to no faith at all that leaving will change a lot. I guess what I’m trying to say is, there is a certain sense of “safety” in being associated with sgm because I know to stay away, and many others do, too. But when a church leaves and is independent or joins another group, it is still going to have the same mindset and the same issues, just under a different name, and there won’t be that sgm warning label. I’m terrified of ever getting involved with something like sgm again. Nothing is new -- yes, there is lots out in the open now that was concealed for so long, but come on, it’s been there all along, and many of us saw all the junk years ago. The main thing different now is that more people are talking about it after being hushed for so long under the “gossip and slander” cr*p. If they had left before it was looking “cool” to leave, they would have had my utmost respect. But leaving now, when they know they have a fan base of anti-sgm’ers? Um, no, I just see a bunch of churches going off on their own (or starting a new group) that is no longer associated with sgm but is still full of the same stuff. Yes, God can and does change hearts -- but behavior is deeply rooted and it’s not going to change just because a church is no longer part of sgm. Pastors have been trained a certain way, and have patterns that have become a part of them -- so much so that I have no doubt they don’t even realize how far off they are. I know my feelings are strong, but honestly, the only hope for true change and reform to me is that it all comes crashing down and any new churches start from scratch with brand new leadership.
August 16th, 2012 at 9:34 pm
Empty -
:THANK-YOU:
That was a thought-provoking post. Hmmmmm ….
Before I left leadership, I had dozens of SG pastors across the US and internationally who were prayer partners. My “friends” on Facebook was an A-list of SG leaders, musicians, and prominent pastors.
When I stepped out of leadership I heard from … not a one of them. Not. One.
No emails, phone calls, google chats, good ol’ fashioned snail mail letters. Nada. Zilch. Goose egg.
6 months later I quit the church where I had served and the denomination. Within a few months of being out I had the magnificent realization that I missed them as much as they missed me. Not at all.
Left before it was cool,
Former SG Pastor -- Not missing them for ~4 years!
August 16th, 2012 at 9:43 pm
FSGP #245
My experience exactly! Where were my “friends” of several years?? This says all you need to know about a church. That little dod means -- PERIOD!!
August 16th, 2012 at 10:28 pm
Empty -- I totally agree. I do see the positive in at least some of the churches leaving, but I also wonder if anything will really change for them. They have been well trained in SGM thought and practice.
FSGP -- So have any of them contacted you since to make amends?
August 16th, 2012 at 11:47 pm
WW -
Interesting question. Answer -- mostly “no”.
One person, a SG singer-songwriter-pastor-blogger type, “contacted” me when his email was hacked and I was subsequently spammed from his account.
One gent, who I co-led with, contacted me last fall before the SG pastors conference. I had not heard from him in over a year. He contacted me because he wanted to share with me what he had learned at a conference. I reckoned it was probably stuff from PeaceFakers or some of the other rot that was about in SG circles last fall. I wished him well but declined contact. Then he stated that he wanted to renew a relationship with me while at the same time “confessing” to me that he had gossiped about me to the pastors/leaders at the local franchise that we had attended together and to the on-again-off-again apostle, the great De-Gifter himself, the Shankmeister.
Yep.
“Uh huh,” said I. Then I read (or more properly “wrote”) him the Riot Act.
As an act of good faith to show his true desire to restore our relationship, the lad on his own offered to contact SS and make things right with/for me. “Sounds good”, said me. “In good faith I shall not breathe again until you return with news of restitution and reconciliation”.
That was last November …
… breathless 10 months later and holding,
Former SG Pastor
August 16th, 2012 at 11:49 pm
An interesting thing happened at CLC, this week. Todd Twining (an x-SGM pastor and worship leader) who now lives in Baltimore) was asked to lead worship at one of their prayer meetings. It seems like these prayer meetings were created to allow for more movement of the Holy Spirit, than Sunday meetings. If anyone attended this meeting, perhaps you can report how it went.
August 17th, 2012 at 5:28 am
Persona wrote in #249—prayer meetings created to allow more movement of the Holy Spirit instead of the Sunday morning service!
now why does that strike me as funny?
God forbid that the Holy Spirit would move on Sunday Morning. Before I left the church I attended there were only 2 incidents where the Holy Spirit was there in 10 years. It’s incredible what men can do without the Presence of God.
And FSGP you are off limits to most folks still in sgm-when you leave on your own-- you are the enemy.