As an outsider looking in, something I find really hard to understand is the way that Sovereign Grace Ministries makes personnel changes, especially with respect to its churches’ senior pastors.
Apparently, most of these changes come as a great surprise to a lot of the people involved. There are stories of congregations where at least half the people were shocked to learn they were getting a new pastor.
The other half, though? Well, what’s also interesting is how some of this information does get around.
Take the Colorado Springs church plant, for instance. Aside from the fact that there are MANY solid, Bible-believing, Gospel-proclaiming churches in the moderately-sized city of Colorado Springs, Colorado, SGM had been planning a church plant there, so that Colorado Springs could FINALLY have one “good church” that was “truly Reformed.”
I’m sure that thousands of Colorado Springs Christians – many of whom are employed by the nationally known Christian ministries headquartered there – breathed a huge sigh of relief and rejoiced greatly that there was finally going to be a “good Reformed church” in their area.
But alas, it looks like plans have changed. All those people selling their homes and quitting jobs and leaving friends and family in Arizona so that they could go out and evangelize the great unreached mission field of Colorado Springs are learning that they’ll be staying put.
Word on the street is that the pastor who was to be in charge of this church plant will instead be moving to another city in Colorado to take over an existing Sovereign Grace church.
Supposedly, this information is a “big secret,” so big that a good many of the people affected by the news aren’t even supposed to know about it for another month or more.
Yet…how is it that LOTS of people already do know about it, to the point where word has leaked out and more than a few folks have emailed me to share the news?
If SGM’s main decision makers have already figured out where they’re going to place their men and how they’re going to be ”repositioning” these guys, why not just announce it openly, and SIMULTANEOUSLY, to all those who would be affected by these decisions?
Why the need for secrecy? Why the stealth? Why the delays?
Especially when these moves obviously are NOT so secret or stealthy.
I really don’t get it.
If you’re one of the people whose lives are being affected by these “secret” stealthy decisions, you really ought to be asking some questions right about now. If you’re a member of the Denver congregation, how do you feel about having absolutely no input into the decision of whether your current pastor stays or goes? How do you feel about the way these decisions appear to be made? How about the “surprise” element?
If you’re one of the leaders involved in these closed-door meetings, where the fate of these men was decided, I just have to ask you WHY? Why keep an entire congregation in the dark about a huge change coming down the pike, when a bunch of random folks in another location already know about it?
I know you guys have redefined the word “gossip” to mean any and all sharing of information that you don’t want people to be discussing. But is it really “gossip” to want to know if one’s senior pastor will soon be swapped out for another guy? Is it somehow wrong to be concerned about who will be leading one’s “local” church? Wouldn’t it demonstrate, actually, a strange lack of concern if people did NOT desire to know about these things?
And if this news IS “gossip,” then how is it that you’re passing it on to some folks, but not to others?
There’s been a lot of discussion lately on this blog about what Sovereign Grace Ministries needs to change. A lot of folks have been saying for a long time that SGM needs to change their entire paradigm of church government. Many of the stories of abuse shared here would never have happened if the average Sovereign Grace Member had a real VOICE in what goes on at his or her SGM church…or if the church leadership had been more OPEN and HONEST with their people.
And while the seemingly random and out-of-left-field repositioning of pastors couldn’t exactly be defined as “abusive,” there is still something unnecessarily CONTROLLING about it, that merely reinforces the perception that the only people with any say at all over what happens at your “local” church are those guys sitting in some conference room in Gaithersburg.
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:38 pm
a,
I’m sorry to hear of your friend “D”. You were extending to her hope and life, yet it was stifled. I cannot understand this. If this was one of their “family meetings” where church business was being discussed, then okay. But a social gathering? Where is the concern for the lost and lonely?
I’m sorry such an graceless position was forced upon you.
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:38 pm
I know many of us have equated CJ to the pope, but in fairness to our Catholic brothers and sisters. The Roman Catholic Pope is elected and it is a generally accepted fact in the modern Catholic church to allow open dissent.
A recent example is when the current Pope invited Hans Kung to meet with him. Hans Kung is a Swiss Catholic who does not venerate the saints and has openly opposed the doctrine of Papal infallability. Guess what-the pope didn’t run him out on a rail and both men agreed that they enjoyed discussing their differences. CJ’s comparison to a pope might be accurate if looking at a medieval pope, but he sure could learn something from the modern popes, imho.
January 23rd, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Kris said;
Somebody, correct me if I’m wrong, but the general impression created by the phrase, “We govern through a ‘plurality of elders’” is a church where decisions are made by men who are just ordinary (although recognized for their spiritual maturity) members, who have been SELECTED BY THE CONGREGATION in some fashion, and who then serve to HOLD THE HIRED STAFF ACCOUNTABLE to the congregation in some fashion.
Exactly!!
January 23rd, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Thanks MM (152)!
I’ve seen much more grace and openness (not to mention expository teaching) from the priests in my Catholic church than I ever did from the leaders in SGM.
January 23rd, 2009 at 6:49 pm
MM – good point! I was raised catholic. I would rather attend a catholic church any day of the week over an SGM church!
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:04 pm
Kris said,
“Hey, Kindred…
I’m on my Bill Gothard hobby horse again! You gonna join me?
But seriously, how is it that so much of SGM is like Gothardism, only with contemporary music, men in oversized untucked shirts, and women in khaki capris?”
Hehe…yep, count me in…
Kris, I think you nailed it with comments 99 & 100. This is the most important observation you’ve made yet. Most everything that’s whacked about SGM is a result of their definition of grace. EVERYTHING!
We’ve said it over and over again…SGM is just “repackaged” Gothardism.
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Kris, a post on ALL the similarities between Bill Gothard & Sovereign Grace Ministries would be beneficial for folks. I don’t think ANYONE would deny that Gothard is whacked.
To my knowledge, no one has posted anything showing JUST HOW MUCH Sovereign Grace Ministries resembles Gothardism. Thus far we have BG’s definition of grace (which is major), the courtship similarities, the definition of gossip and slander, the false/ill (?) report thing…hmmm…help me out here…there’s more we’ve discussed…
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Musicman–I was howling when you noted, in deference to our Catholic brethren that at least the Pope is elected. Fantastic point.
Stunned, sister am I with you on this one.
“But though He’s aware of everything, He’s also searching for something in particular, something that acts like a magnet to capture His attention and invite His involvement. God is decisively drawn to humility. The person who is humble is the one who draws God’s attention, and in this sense, drawing His attention means also attracting His grace- His unmerited kindness. Think about that: There’s something you can do to attract more of God’s gracious, undeserved, supernatural strength and assistance!”
So…the one that first comes to mind is David, one described as a ‘man after God’s own heart.”
David was so humble. Oh yes. He was simply a worm of a man, who spent most of his time with his eyes cast down murmuring quiet prayers to himself. That must have been what attracted God. He was an excellent Dad–remember that little Tamar issue? David sure didn’t like that his son raped his daughter, but oh well–he didn’t want to get too mad at his son, after all he REALLY liked the boy. yet in the midst of this huge display of humilty, God chose him to write scripture and to be an ancestor of Jesus. Oh yeah, God was the one that humbled him: he sent Nathan to get in his face. He took David’s child with Bathsheba. he broke up that hap-hap-happy family run by Mr. Humilty.
Then there was Job. Humble right? Not really, although he was at the end when he said, after all God put him through, “I had heard about you, but now, after all this, I realize who you really are.’ Why would God have to step in halfway through the book, get in Job’s face, and start the best tirade in the history of man: “Listen, dude, where you there when I spoke the world into place? Did you make the Leviathan? Sit down, little man, and listen to me.”
And good old Peter. Real humble man. So humble he denied he knew Jesus on that horrible night. That is certainly the humility that attracts a holy God. God chose him to lead the church, although this apparently humbled him alright, he turned leadership over to other men.
Joseph, that little punk? “Hey, bros, I had this dream about a bunch of sheaves of wheat bowing down to me. Whaddya think? Hey, by the way, do you like my wicked awesome coat that Dad gave me? Oh, you don’t have one yet????” Yet God was attracted to him, and humbled hiim, and used him to save the life of Judah, through whom Jesus would come.
The good old apostles, such humble men, which is why Jesus chose them. They spent some of their time arguing about who was the greatest and who would get to sit next to God in heaven, egged on by their humble ol’ mama.
And then there is Mr. Humble himself, Paul. That is why God was attracted to him–his humility. He reeked of it, which attracted God. No doubt when he was tearing around the countryside, telling everyone that he had a great genealogy and fantastic theological education, and getting licensed to kill subversive radical Jesus followers, he showed the proper humility that attracted God.
NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! May it never be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are certainly told to humble ourselves. Absolutely. But isn’t humility the understanding that others are to be before us? That we are not God? The fruit of the Spirit–love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self control?
If the fruit of the Spirit is humility, their opposites should be pride, and they are: hatred, anxiety, impatience, cruelty, evil, harshness, unfaithfulness, self-indulgence.
Therefore, if the FRUIT of the SPIRIT is the path to humility, the only way to become humble is a work of grace. Grace comes, then the Spirit, then his fruit in our lives, leading to sanctification–a humble walk with God.
So we see the paradox. We are commanded to be humble. The Bible says God gives grace to the humble. That he resists the proud.
But only he can build humilty into us.
How can we deserve grace? It is a fallacy! Ludicrous. Burdensome. A lie!
Scripture is clear: God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
Logic: does God ever resist his people? Where in Scripture does it say that God resists his chosen, his beloved? Can a husband resist his wife? Can a mother resist her children?
Paradox–like salvation itself! Does God choose a people and call them? True. Do the people come to him, do we confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord? True. Paradox. A contradictory statement that is true. He calls. We come. Both are true.
If we try to be humble in order to attract his grace, we are not humble and will not attract his grace.
If we think we can get him to do stuff by feigning humilty, we are not humble.
Just my (not humble at all, God have mercy on me) opinion.
You were right on on this one, Stunned!
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Here’s a biggie, Kindred -
Gothardism and SGM share the identical views of the “umbrella of authority.”
SGM pastors see themselves as “standing in the very stead of God” to their people. They believe they have the ultimate authority. Then there is the “umbrella” that extends from husband to wife and then from parents over their children…even adult children.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Kris, I’ve been scanning some of my bookmarked sites on Gothard tonight.
Here’s a quote from Personal Freedom Outreach…
“When Gothard speaks where the Scripture is silent and is dogmatic on questionable interpretations, he becomes a law unto himself; thinking Christians must be aware of it and critical and discerning. Gothard would do better to stay with his strong area of basic seminars and not pontificate on every issue. He also should open his organization to independent scrutiny.
Heresy doesn’t have to start with a major leap; it may begin with a leaning, a trend that moves off center just a bit. Certainly Gothard doesn’t intend to confuse and divide, but we have seen his followers make areas mentioned above a test of orthodoxy and their fellowship with others has been destroyed. Everyone needs to be scrutinized when he presumes to speak for God.
There is no perfect denomination or teacher. However, Jesus warned us to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees (Matthew 16:6). This has to do with additions and the adding of human error to truth. It has to do with creating traditions and building into the texts what is not really there. It has to do with creating elaborate systems of practice that in the end are a subtle diversion from the pure Word of God and the New Covenant.
It helps to liken a denomination or a teacher to a building. Paul does so in 1 Corinthians 3. Certainly a building can still house people if the siding is peeling and a window is cracked. The building can also be somewhat safe even if a window is broken and the roof has small leaks. Even the most conscientious teacher may have a “loose tile” or a “small crack” in his foundation, so to speak. None of us have the last word on everything.
However, if a lot of windows are out, part of the roof is off, the siding is falling off, and rodents are invading, there may be a point at which that building becomes structurally unsafe. It is still a building, yes, but it’s quality and safety should be called into question and we would probably urge the occupants to seek a safer structure.
Gothard’s “house” has so many flaws, so many questions, so many aberrational leanings, so many structural weaknesses and a foundation that is not New Testament. Its occupants may not be very safe and should move to safer quarters.
The words of Charles Bridges are filled with godly wisdom:
“The novelties of fancy, accredited by some favorite name, readily pass for the revelation of God. But here men are ready to drink any cup that is presented to them, like children, who think everything good that is sweet. Errors, never solitary, are built upon some partial, insulated, or perverted truth … carefully ponder whom we follow. Sift the most plausible pretensions (1 Thessalonians 5:21, 1 John 4:1). Never set a great name against the Divine testimony. Admit only the one standard; like the noble Bereans, who would not believe even an Apostle’s word except it was confirmed by the written testimony (Acts 17:11).”34″
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:16 pm
I need to catch up on a couple of posts:
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:31 pm
Coach,
I’m sure those kids will always remember you. The lack of gratitude shown and lack of compassion regarding the effect of those decisions made by the leaders is dreadful.
One thing I’ve learned the last couple of years is that a lack of gratitude and appreciation for effort and labor done by fellow believers is a red flag that says caution. Gratitude indicates you realize that other people contribute things that you cannot and that we are interdependent on one another in the body of Christ.
I read a book titled, thanks! by Robert Emmons who has studied gratitude. He’s not a Christian as is evident by portions of the book, but he really understands how gratitude indicates character. Some of the things he wrote made my hair curl, they were so on target.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:34 pm
a
You were such a wonderful example of forgiveness and compassion.
I’m sorry you had to deal with some who were more concerned about rules than compassion.
I pray that “D” will never forget you and that God will use your relationship with her to bring her to know Christ.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Kris,
Thank you again for your postings on grace. I’ve saved them to print and read and think about. I’m glad my comment resonated with you and you shared more from Horton’s book!
I checked our library, but it does not have that book. I have put a hold on another book by Horton, titled Putting amazing back into grace. Do you know anything about that one?
We need more of the wonderful grace of Jesus! (One of my favorite hymns!).
January 24th, 2009 at 10:06 am
RT, thanks for your views on the above. If what was written above, was a direct quote out of CJ’s book (which I trust it is), well… that is stunning. Absolutely amazing. and sad.
January 24th, 2009 at 10:25 am
RT, I so enjoy the way you write…#158
January 24th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Kindred and Stunned–awww. thanks for the kind words!
A second thing caught my attention:
‘and invites his involvement?’
WHAT THE HECK!!!!
What about the whole reformed thing that CJ brags about: we can’t do anything to invite his involvement. He is God of the universe, he breathes worlds into being.
We do invite his involvement, but he involves himself where he wills, and sits in the heavens and laughs.
January 24th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
What I find stunning is that CJ’s book on “humility” is one of the things that pulled him more into the public eye and garnered him more attention from the “Reformed Big Dogs.”
How is it that it could contain these sorts of statements and yet still pass muster with the Big Dogs?
Did they not actually READ what he said?
January 24th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Kris,
The title sounded good… OH!… and the cover was pretty…
;-)
January 24th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
INC -
Re your comment #164, I love that hymn, too!
Carole -
But I still do wonder how these supposed “great Reformed leaders” could have missed such blatantly Gothardized statements about grace. I’m so surprised, actually, that no one within SGM has ever seemed to be bothered by this. I know that there are a great many SGMers who actually ARE readers and thinkers. Certainly not all of them are asleep at the wheel…
January 24th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Stunned
What RT quoted does come directly from CJ’s book. I could even give you the page number if you wanted ;-)
January 24th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Kris,
#170: But if those readers and thinkers actually spoke up and said, “This is false doctrine….” they will be disciplined and put on the fast-track to dismemberment.
If I’ve learned anything these past few weeks reading these blogs, it is that CJ rules absolutely. (I always suspected such, but the evidence of it has been overwhelming.)
All other “leaders” are not permitted to have independent thoughts. The cost to their personal integrity must be tremendously high. That they are willing to be “yes” men for all these years and decades, saddens me because of the lost potential.
That these readers and thinkers permit themselves to be compromised is sinful – especially as it leads them to continue to foster false doctrine and hurtful leadership on those they oversee.
I wonder why they find CJ so much more important to themselves than personal integrity and Biblical righteousness.
January 24th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Bethany, aka nowt,
I believe you! I was just trying to show the doubters that we’re not all looking to believe “the bad”. Just so sad that there’s so much badness out there. Enough so that we don’t have to make it up. There’s plenty of true badness going on to fill a… hmmm… what does badness fill? A blog about true problems that tohers turn their back on.
once again… all it takes for evil to conqueor is for good men to do nothing.