Every day, I get a lot of interesting email. Some people write to ask questions. Some people write to tell me how horribly sinful the site is. Some folks – for whatever reason – want advice. But mostly, people write to tell me their stories.
I read every one of these emails, and even when someone sees fit to give me a good tongue-lashing (or would that be “keyboard-lashing”? :-) ), I really do enjoy hearing from people. I’m a fairly speedy typist and love to write, so if you email me, you’ll probably get at least one reply. And if your original email strikes my fancy for whatever reason, you might even find that I have quite a lot to say in response.
So anyway, over the past few months, I’ve had many conversations with folks about their Sovereign Grace experiences. I’ve never done an official tally, but I know I’ve heard far more SGM stories via email than have been shared on the site itself.
One striking aspect of so many of the stories people have told me is the almost palpable fear that lurks behind their words. Often, their entire reason for sending email rather than posting their stories to the blog is because they are afraid that if they share publicly, even if they do so anonymously, they might be recognized. Apparently, if their fellow SGM-ers were to find out that they are dissatisfied with aspects of their Sovereign Grace experience, and are sharing about these on a website, terrible things could befall them.
I have to say, for a long time, I never gave these writers’ fear much thought. I understand what it’s like to worry about disappointing people. I have my own reasons for not blogging under my full identity. Because we did not have a bad experience at our Sovereign Grace church but were instead treated very kindly by our SGM pastors, we’ve always believed that they do not deserve to have this site reflect personally on them or their particular church, especially because we’d still like to believe that their congregation is far more grace-based than some and does not manifest the problems that others have described here. Why should they have to suffer because we were bothered by nagging undercurrents, had questions, and then blogged about them?
So I can understand the desire for secrecy.
But the other day, after receiving email from four different individuals who all, in one way or another, expressed their desire to maintain even more anonymity than the website affords, I got to thinking about just how strange it is that a Christian organization could engender so much fear in its people. What, after all, could befall your average Sovereign Grace person if it were discovered that he or she had expressed dissatisfaction online?
Certainly I could not imagine anything truly sinister. I couldn’t picture CJ Mahaney or any other pastor sending out his goons to rough up the individual who had, for instance, shared that she’d been castigated and reprimanded by church leadership for daring to pray for a married woman when she herself is still single. I couldn’t see an angry mob of men with shaved heads and oversized shirts all wielding baseball bats and coming after the gentleman who told of being disciplined for not tithing. I certainly couldn’t envision what was so scandalous about the story of the family who had decided to leave because they’d been rebuked for asking hard questions about their church’s ambitious building program.
Why were they so desperate to keep the stories of their dissatisfaction anonymous?
What power does Sovereign Grace Ministries have over all these folks, especially now, as many of them have already left?
I really don’t know.
I am aware, of course, that many SGM families worry about losing their social lives, which, after some years, tend to revolve around the church and its activities. Some writers have told of extended family whose livelihoods depend upon maintaining good relations with SGM. I guess many people feel like they just have too much to lose, and that it’s too risky for them to come out and even semi-publicly express any dissatisfaction.
Like I said, I can understand this, to a point.
But isn’t it a little odd that a Christian organization could exert such control over its people?
The other day, my sister and I were talking about how many emails I receive from frightened people. That’s when it suddenly hit me that this sort of fear is a very obvious sign that SGM is NOT a normal Christian organization. My sister and I reminisced about how many people we knew during our growing-up years who sort of “made the rounds” of the different churches in our small town. They’d be loyal and involved members of our church, and then something would happen and they’d show up at the church down the street…soon to be loyal and involved there. And then something again would happen, and they’d come back to our church, where it didn’t take a terribly long time for them to be back to their same level of involvement.
Although of course these folks received their share of patronizing smiles, and although some people jokingly referred to them as “church tramps,” their personal embarrassment was really the ONLY consequence of their leaving. Nobody ever spoke ill of them or tried to frame stories about their departure. To the best of my knowledge, they retained their standing in the community and did not see any disruptions in their significant relationships. It was relatively easy for them to return, and they did not have to work to “re-earn” their “credibility” so that they could once again be considered “qualified” for service.
Doubtless, lack of commitment is not a desirable trait in a church member. I’m not in any way saying that it’s good for a church to encourage its people to be flaky. But the level of fear that comes through in the emails I receive is all out of proportion to what’s actually at stake, if Sovereign Grace Ministries is truly a family of “regular” churches. The body of Christ – the “church universal” – is a wonderfully varied and diverse group these days. No single Bible-believing, Bible-teaching denomination or group has a corner on the market of “correct” doctrine or proper methods of fostering fellowship. If you are having serious doubts about your church, or if you have been hurt or harmed by church discipline run amuck, you can find another place to worship and to serve.
If you find yourself irrationally fearing otherwise – if you find yourself laboring under the notion that you cannot leave your current church without horrible harm befalling you and your family - that might be the most obvious sign that it’s time to get out of Dodge.
March 3rd, 2008 at 8:43 am
I’ve been mulling over this blog post for a few days, ever since my sister and I had our conversation about fear. What finally prompted me to publish it was an email I received this morning. It contained an attachment, which turned out to be a document – an obituary. In the email itself, the person had (anonymously, of course) written, in part:
Thoughts, anyone?
EDITED TO ADD THIS DISCLAIMER, FROM COMMENT #7: I need to point out that we cannot assume causality between the individual’s suicide and his withdrawal from his SGM church. Many, many other factors were probably at play which brought him to such despair. I do not believe that we can hold a church responsible for an obvious manifestation of mental illness and the devil’s own destructive whispers.
I mention it here, though, because SGM’s relatively new membership covenants and waivers do seem designed to help them avoid such legal culpability.
March 3rd, 2008 at 8:58 am
Kris-
Your post left me dumbfounded. It is so true. I still often feel these surges of fear when I openly criticize SGM methods. I think it is a combination of 2 things that are under-the-radar Roman practices:
#1- The emphasis on the sin and worthlessness of the laity.
#2- The leadership is held up as nearly infallible and as having special connections to God that the laity does not have.
This is bullying. This promotes fear.
Your first comment broke my heart. I would love to say that I can’t ever imagine it happening, but unfortunately I can.
March 3rd, 2008 at 9:42 am
Wow, I don’t know what to say. I wonder if the pursuit was to get him to come back or for him to keep quiet. I think most times, once you leave – you don’t exist.
March 3rd, 2008 at 10:10 am
Interesting new thread, Kris.
I’ve got some thoughts about this, but it may seem like I’m taking the meandering back road to get to the gist of it, so plz bear with me.
In the gospels we see Jesus being confronted by and confronting the Pharisees. The teachings of the Pharisees were completely contrary to the teachings of Jesus, and He vehemently addressed those differences. We also see in Matt. 16 where Jesus sharply addresses the disciples when he said to them,
The disciples were told to watch out and be on guard against that which distorts the Truth and Jesus stressed the importance of protecting His doctrine.
I share that that story from scripture to point out that there is a very real tension, a very real hostility, a very real threat that issues forth from pharisaical people and their doctrines – doctrines that always compete with the doctrine of Jesus Christ. The same thing that happened to Jesus and the disciples, continues to happen today because the teachings of the Pharisees are still very much alive. The Pharisees distorted the truth, robbed the people, and tyrannized Jesus and his disciples with fear. It isn’t surprising to me at all that people in SGM who have disagreements would feel the same kind of threat from them as Jesus and the disciples felt from the Pharisees. The Pharisees modus operandi was “conformity to the law”, but they missed the heart of the law which is love. SGM’s modus operandi is “submit and conform” as well.
I’ve said this before, but I believe there is a real problem of pride within the ministry of SGM. My opinion is that this pride was present when CJ made Larry look like a traitor and took his place. I’m talking about the kind of pride that is spiritual in nature, the kind of pride that was present in the Pharisees and that resists anything that does not conform to their teachings. When present, this pride, which is competitive in nature, will seek to gain the upper hand in order to remain in control. And the weapons of choice they use are fear and intimidation. Consequently, the way people who disagree with SGM feel threatened by SGM doesn’t surprise me in the least bit. In fact, I would surprised if that were NOT the case.
So, what should the response be to this? I say have no fear. Jesus never focused the disciples attention on the fear tactics of the Pharisees (and He was well aware of the fact that they would kill Him and the disciples), but rather on being vigilant to protect the Truth because that is where He taught the real danger lied.
My pastor said something yesterday that caught my attention. He said that before Jesus went to the Cross, He as fighting for us. He fought against the doctrines of the Pharisees and won for us the Truth that we are warned to guard and protect against the leaven of the Pharisees. He fought to deliver to us the pure, unadulterated Truth. As His disciples, we are called to protect those precious truths and not to be afraid of what happens to us as a consequence of standing up for the Truth.
March 3rd, 2008 at 10:39 am
I don’t think someone would commit suicide b/c they were “lovingly pursued” to come back. My experience has been that it’s either to come to agreement with them by any means they feel appropriate (they have a history of employing very heavy-handed tactics) or to keep quiet.
I was blown away to read about this person’s suicide. But, sadly, I’m not surprised at all. Having been there myself, I wouldn’t be surprised if there weren’t more cases of suicide following someone’s experience with Sovereign Grace Ministries. The mind games they play, the crushing guilt tactics they employ, and the power they wield are not forces to be trifled with.
We’ve talked about this elsewhere on the blog, but b/c of SGM’s insularity, it’s not uncommon at all for people to be isolated from outsiders, including family and former friends. So when people consider leaving, one of the first costs they have to weigh is the reality of losing all of their friends and their kids losing all of their friends. And why do they know that this will inevitably be a cost? Because they’ve seen it happen over and over.
And if you do leave, they will pursue you if they hear that you told anyone why you actually left. Case in point: I went back to the city where I had lived to attend my students’ high school graduation. We had already left Sovereign Grace altogether, but while I was there, I saw a bunch of old friends who were all still at the church and even attended the Sovereign Grace church with one of my friends. This friend who I was staying with also had a get together at her house, and I was asked questions by various members on the down-low.
A couple of the people would (literally) look askance over their shoulder to make sure no one was too close and would talk to me in hushed tones. I was very careful to screen out questions that just seemed more curiosity based. My policy was big questions get big answers; little questions get little answers. And I didn’t share any of the reasons we left (except the scrubbed down version, of course) unless they first told me specifically why they were asking and what their concerns were. This church had a number of zealous “scouts” who would pursue people who left and then take what they shared back to leadership.
I also genuinely have a fear of God about “stirring up dissension among brothers.” I didn’t appreciate it when I was aggressively pursued by those who left, and I wasn’t going to do that to anyone who was still in SGM.
After I got back home, I received a voice mail from the senior pastor that sounded cloyingly sweet … thanked me for coming, told me how good it was to see me and see that I was doing well, and asked me to give him a call back. I thought, “Yeah, right. I’m so sure the senior pastor (who I wasn’t close w/ at all) just wants to get chatty with me.”
I didn’t return his call.
So he called again and left another message saying that he had “received reports” that I was sharing things with people that were uncomplimentary of leadership and told me that if I had concerns about the church, I should talk to him since they aren’t (you guessed it) “part of the problem or the solution.”
I was furious. I mean, really livid. I wanted to call him back immediately and read him the riot act. But I realized that he would then be able to use my “sinful” response — when he shared w/ others about just what a threat I was and how they should stay away from me — as damning proof of my departure from “sound doctrine” and, hence, “right living.” So I decided to send him an email instead … since writing out my concerns would afford me more ample opportunity to be led by the Holy Spirit. (It took multiple rewrites to winnow out all of the scathing “scarcasm,” as one SGMer would call it.)
I told him that I took issue with a culture that supported “reporting” on others — and that if anyone had an issue with anything I shared, it was their responsibility to come back to me, NOT go to him. I also told him that he had a responsibility to direct them to me since he was not, in fact, “part of the problem or the solution.” But using nebulous reports that had no specificity to them whatsoever as an opportunity to try to silence me is fool’s play and smacks more of WW2 tactics than anything I see in Scripture.
But how sick is a movement that makes you sign a waiver, as a requirement for membership, that even sacrifices your right to litigation if their brutal tactics result in disaster??? That’s a new low.
March 3rd, 2008 at 11:13 am
That’s a very interesting post and really touches deep at the heart of what I have realised my problem with SGM is. My fear is for a slightly different reason. I don’t fear the leaders anymore – I have left the city and stand no chance of running into them. I (like SGM Cas) have rejected “kind offers” of meetings to sit down and “discuss what they sought to do with me” because I have do not feel it would be “profitable” in the slightest.
No my fear is that unfortunately my entire family is in SGM (aside from my older sister) and from reading some of these accounts on SGM Uncensored, it would not be beyond the leaders of the church at all to put pressure on my family to excommunicate me from them. Indeed when the inital meeting happened, and I was told that I was being “put out to Satan” – my dad was so concerned that he asked the senior pastor if this meant that the family too were included in not being allowed to talk to me but only to urge me to repent and agree with the leaders ultimatums. However he was told – no apparantly at that stage they were “allowed” to keep seeing me.
I love my family to bits and it breaks my heart every time I visit them to see the entrenched legalism that runs so deep. What concerned me even more was that I do try to have honest conversations and find out what the teaching and preaching they are exposed to is all about. I was told that the church is running “Family Matters” courses by the “apostle”. I asked – genuinely interested – what that teaching entailed and was told that the first course was on the “Gospel and Marriage”. So I asked what the Gospel had to do with marriage and they couldn’t answer because they couldn’t remember!! When they retrieved their notes, the teaching was (surprise surprise) all about resolving conflict and women submitting.
My fear? That one day I will be told by my family that they cannot speak to me anymore because the leaders have made them choose between their son and the church.
I hope that day never arrives but when I read that someone has been driven to suicide by being “lovingly pursued” by SGM, I really believe anything is possible!! Fortunately I have put an email block on the SGM pastors email address and they don’t know my new address so I don’t think “loving pursuit” is coming my way! I hope! ;)
March 3rd, 2008 at 11:14 am
I need to point out that we cannot assume causality between the individual’s suicide and his withdrawal from his SGM church. Many, many other factors were probably at play which brought him to such despair. I do not believe that we can hold a church responsible for an obvious manifestation of mental illness and the devil’s own destructive whispers.
I mention it here, though, because SGM’s relatively new membership covenants and waivers do seem designed to help them avoid such legal culpability.
March 3rd, 2008 at 11:36 am
Claireon,
You wrote,
Wow. This is really insightful. Apart from recognizing evidences of Pharisaical pride in the leadership, I never made the connection you have here about just how much Sovereign Grace’s modus operandi align with the practices of the Pharisees. But I do think it’s a striking parallel in so many ways.
Having been part of a church now that was more like the churches Kris reminisced about, it just wasn’t a big deal at all when people left. In fact, our care group was so close, people who left the church continued to come to the care group. And people still maintained the friendships they had developed with other people in the church and still attended other church functions, like the amazing Tue morning women’s Bible study. (BTW, how pathetic is it that I had to battle feeling like I was engaging in acts of treachery by attending a Bible study taught by a woman for the first few weeks?)
There have also been pastors who have left this church and taken advantage of other opportunities. And they were never treated like Larry was. I look back now on the way Larry’s departure was handled and grieve for his family. I even heard from a friend who was close to Doris (Larry’s wife) that she was essentially shunned by even her sisters, who were still in Sovereign Grace.
How do Christians justify that? Here’s a family where all of the sisters are Christians, yet there’s no fellowship b/c Larry and Doris dared to draw a line in what I can only imagine now was a ridiculously trumped up discipline process. (I’ve heard since that there’s been reconciliation now since another sister’s husband was removed from leadership for similar issues that the Tomczaks were removed for.)
But the fact that Sovereign Grace leadership has expunged all of their historical records of his existence indicates — almost more than any other piece of “evidence” I’ve heard — suggests that his departure was more the result of a coup d’etat than anything else. It’s really downright dishonest and unethical. Of course, when leadership made this dubious decision, they probably never foresaw the ubiquity of the Internet giving rise to sites like Wikipedia that would expose their duplicity and blogs like this one that would detail their dangerous doctrines and methodologies.
Evidences of Pharisaical behavior? Yep. I’d say that’s pretty right on … right down to the resurrection-less cross they preach, their morbid emphasis on indwelling sin, and the dependence they encourage on leadership for guidance and direction.
March 3rd, 2008 at 11:40 am
Hi Kris,
I have not shared this experience before, but I think now is the time. I was asked to leave my SGM church because of taking sides against the pastor on a couple of marriage issues, and other situations where I went against the counsel of the leadership. Soon afterwards, I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia, and was home bound for about 4 years. At one point, I was so week that my wife had to feed me.
I found out later, that there were others in my church who were suffering from this same Fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome (and still are!)
I believe this now to have been a spiritual illness, and not a physical illness. There was a verse given to me from Proverbs, that was a word of knowledge from the Lord to another gentleman. (Long story). The verse is “A merry heart does good like a medicine, but a broken spirit dries up the bones.” The Lord had shown this man, who had premed in college, that the immune system is based in the bone marrow. When your spirit gets wounded, this immunty function gets hindered (dries up the bones!)
There are a lot of very wounded spirits on this web site and in your e-mails. I would love to hear how many people are suffering as a result from Fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome. or any other related spiritual manifestations of illness.
I got over mine by forgiving all those I could think of, who had broken my heart and wounded my spirit (not just those at SGM). It was a long process, but I am now totally healed and free from this illness! To God be the glory!
March 3rd, 2008 at 11:57 am
Kris,
You said,
Although this is true, I think it is safe to extrapolate from their heavy-handed tactics in dealing with those who leave and the fact that they shored up their membership document to include a legal waiver the plausibility of a causal connection. And even if there wasn’t in this person’s case, it’s certainly not beyond the realm of possibility for this type of treatment — in conjunction with any other vulnerabilities that could drive a person to this degree of hopelessness (such a lack of family support, mental illness, previous trauma, etc.) — for such treatment to result in disaster of this magnitude.
I do feel strongly about this topic b/c their prohibition on getting outside help has, I believe, led to many people plunging depths of darkness that could be, at minimum, abated — and in many cases successfully treated — with competent, professional help. But I was also part of a church where they brought a man on staff who was a licensed counselor to add more weight to their extreme stance on any type of therapeutic treatment for any reason. I also think that leadership should not be able to hide behind a legal document to avoid accountability for their more treacherous practices. If their practices didn’t have so many inherent risks, there would not be the need for legal immunity.
March 3rd, 2008 at 12:08 pm
I’ve never heard of the doctrine of pursuit-can someone sum it up for me?
March 3rd, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Dennis,
Wow, I had no idea that you were among those who suffered from auto-immune diseases/disorders. Someone pointed out a long time ago how just anecdotally, they knew of many people who had lupus, rheumetoid arthritis, Epstein-Barr syndrome, and the like. When this person wrote that, I recalled that even in our short time at our SG church, I’d known of at least three SG individuals who had similar problems.
I can’t remember if I ever wrote this in a comment, or if it just was one of those things that I’d pondered, but although this is sheer speculation, it seems like there could so easily be a connection between auto-immune disorders and theology that teaches people to focus so much on their own sinfulness.
Think about it. If you are convinced at a deep level that every natural thought, impulse, or feeling you have is inherently evil and infected with “indwelling sin,” and if you are taught that you consequently cannot ever trust your own instincts, isn’t that a form of self-loathing?
And since we are spirits housed in bodies, and our spirits and bodies are inextricably connected, wouldn’t it make sense that one’s body would essentially “turn” on itself, attacking its own immunities?
Again – pure speculation – but fascinating, and with a ring of truth to it, at least in my way of thinking.
March 3rd, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Musicman,
Doctrine of pursuit? Are you being tongue in cheek? There isn’t an actual doctrine of pursuit. We’re talking more methodologies here, rather than doctrines … although their doctrines of indwelling sin and unquestioning submission to leadership certainly underpin these methodologies.
March 3rd, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Musicman,
I’m not sure that the concept of “pursuit” is actually a doctrine. Rather, I believe it is a principle embedded in SGM’s view of what it means to be a part of the body of Christ.
They teach that church membership in their local body is binding. CJ Mahaney and Josh Harris have even pushed for universal recognition of church discipline, so that if you “get into trouble” at SGM, for instance, no other church would be free to accept you into their fellowship unless you’d first submitted to SGM’s discipline process and had received a “clean bill of health,” so to speak, from your SG authorities.
So in this way of thinking, if you remove yourself from your SGM church, you are essentially separating yourself from the entire body of Christ. Therefore, they feel duty-bound to “pursue” you and attempt reconciliation.
On one level, this sounds good. And if the “authorities” were always right in their assessments of people’s problems and heart attitudes, it might work out. But when leadership is wrong and yet pushes forward to steamroll errant members into submission, I think this can become a scary thing.
March 3rd, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Kris:
You said:
“CJ Mahaney and Josh Harris have even pushed for universal recognition of church discipline, so that if you “get into trouble” at SGM, for instance, no other church would be free to accept you into their fellowship unless you’d first submitted to SGM’s discipline process and had received a “clean bill of health,” so to speak, from your SG authorities.”
I *thought* I had read this on another thread, but thought maybe I misunderstood. Are you serious — they really expect a non-SG church to recognize SG’s “authority” and “jurisdiction” over a former SG-member?
How far have they gotten in this pursuit? What churches, if any, have complied with this ridiculous command?
March 3rd, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Dennis and Kris,
Yes, we have discussed the high number of cases of auto-immune diseases in Sovereign Grace. But since Sovereign Grace is teeming with defeated, self-loathing broken spirits, it’s not surprising at all that there would be so many w/ autoimmune diseases. Of course, not every instance of Fibromyalgia — or any other autoimmune disease, for that matter — is necessarily indicative of an underlying spiritual condition. But I do think that where you have a broken spirit, it probably won’t be long before palpable, physical symptoms emerge.
Lynn,
Yes, it is true that Sovereign Grace — in cooperation with some other ministries — is pushing for more universal recognition of discipline processes. In order for this initiative to gain any serious credibility in the rest of the (more reasonable) body of Christ, I would think there would have to be some sort of appeal process put into place to prevent one ministry’s more liberal use of the concept of church discipline from polluting the process. I doubt that’s gonna happen … or that this policy will gain any serious buy in.
But let’s suspend reality for a moment and say that this plan gains serious ground. As soon as other churches find out some of the ridiculous issues people are being “disciplined” for in Sovereign Grace, it could really put some pressure on Sovereign Grace leaders to mollify their practices in regard to church discipline and keep the scope of their church discipline processes limited to those sins that are clearly defined in Scripture.
However, if someone in the church is exposed and remains unrepentant in an area of sin that places others in danger, I think that other churches would be wise to recognize another church’s discipline efforts (although I know nothing about the pragmatics of how they propose to carry that out). I actually think that’s probably more the intent with some of the other churches that have gotten on board with this increased application of church discipline.
But most churches who practice church discipline limit it to cases of clearly defined sin. And the discipline doesn’t go public unless the person remains unrepentant in his/her pursuit of a particular area of sin. Some of the discipline processes Sovereign Grace promulgates can be initiated over issues that aren’t clearly defined as sin (such as disagreeing w/ leadership on a doctrinal issue that leadership capriciously defines as being “rooted in sin”) and can last long after a legitimate sin has been been repented of and dealt with.
March 3rd, 2008 at 1:58 pm
I had to rush out this morning, so my first comment was short and I wanted to add a thing or two.
There are other reasons for fear besides the oppressing of the laity and the over-emphasis on the “wonderfulnes” of the leadership.
I believe Cas brought up some WW2 tactics….she is right on. When we first expressed some difference of opinion on doctrine and that we were looking into other churches, some (now I can see) crazy stuff happened. First of all, we were asked not to visit any other churches until we had definitively decided to leave SGM. Then any correspondence between us and our small group leader was ALWAYS reported to the pastors. Ie…discussions/topics in small group, phone calls and emails were Bcc to the pastoral leadership. And, it was through this second hand info that we were called out on sin and pride issues.
So, why fear??? Because when you dissent, have a discipline issue or decide to leave…..EVERYONE IS SUSPECT of being some type of spy or informant. How unbelievably creepy is that? And, what makes it worse is that is labeled as care and love.
Kris, you got me boiling with this topic. :-)
March 3rd, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Hehe, I don’t think we’ll have to worry about any other church complying with the command. On some level, I think the United States government might have an issue with an organization limiting the freedoms of its people. Anyways, the fact that I had to sign anything to become a member of the SG church should have been a warning sign (no pun intended) for me. I’m also concerned that the church is concerned about legal ramifications from the get-go. We are told to work things out together first before going to the secular system in the Bible. If church discipline is practiced biblically, there should be little concern about legal liability.
For those who leave on their own account like me, you can expect an “exit interview” by the pastors. The pastor did well to look civil and respectable in front of the associate pastor (his son-in-law). Much like a corporate exit interviews, the point really is to leave in good standing and negative feedback is usually left out by departee. They did say they thought it would be good for me to stay, but understood if I felt I need to leave. Their good standing display sort of got to me, so I wrote a bad, long email to associate pastor to try to get him to open up his eyes to what had gone on in the situation — must have been vindicating for pastor to see my sinful reaction.
March 3rd, 2008 at 2:12 pm
SGM Cas, you said:
“However, if someone in the church is exposed and remains unrepentant in an area of sin that places others in danger, I think that other churches would be wise to recognize another church’s discipline efforts (although I know nothing about the pragmatics of how they propose to carry that out).”
That’s where gossip comes in handy — KIDDING!! Just KIDDING!
But there’s something to be said of someone’s reputation preceeding them, especially if that person was planning on being in leadership at his/her new location. But that’s where, I suppose, we have to rely on the Holy Spirit’s guidance (and background checks).
On a more serious note, you bring up a good point about SG having to “show their hand” in order to get other churches on board with them. But I’m sure they could get around this by being vague in their reasons for bringing discipline, right? They could just say to Pastor Smith at the local non-SG church, “Ms. Jones should not be admitted to your church until she deals with an unresolved issue here.”
Pastor Smith: “What’s the issue?”
SG: “We can’t say; that would be gossip.”
Hmmm…
March 3rd, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Thanks for the info on pursuit-I’d been around SGM for @ 10 years but never heard the term before, especially not in relation to a legal waiver for the church.
Just the thought of that being a part of membership scares me.
As for fear-I remember trying to really play by their silly rules as we were leaving. My fear was that they’d call my current church and accuse me of gossip and we’d be forced to relive the whole nightmare again. I was greatly relieved to have them “bless” our departure without any unresolved “concerns” from the pastors. But never did I dream that they thought their discipline be carried over to other denominations.
March 3rd, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Back in an earlier post, the issue was raised of the way Larry T was treated during his “departure”. A comment was made about his wife being shunned by her own sisters. I can tell you for a fact that this is true. I was a part of the church that 2 or her sisters were members of…one of them was the wife of one of the pastors. He (the pastor) told me on one occasion that family gathering were especially uncomfortable after Larry’s “pride issues” surfaced and that it had put a strain on the relationship of Doris and her sisters as well as Larry and everyone in the family.
Since when does our choice of churches interfere with family. God…family…church. Although we had it pounded into us that it was God…church…family. I’m sorry, that’s just wrong.
March 3rd, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Our fear is based on the fact that some of our family remains in the local SGM church we departed from. They have not pursued any of us…indeed, they seem to be quite glad that we are gone since we were not shy about disagreeing (openly) with some of the doctrine, questioning the pastors, etc. But….they have, as we’ve shared in other sections of this blog, told bold face lies from the pulpit, and have essentially cut us off from most of our friends and remaining family. Additionally, the guilt factor really promotes a fear of God’s disapproval…not that we shouldn’t have a desire to please God, of course…but a fear of God’s disapproval that is based on disagreeing w/SGM–I don’t think so!!!!!!!!!!
IGO, they may say God, church, family but honestly, in practice I think they are often promoting church, God, family………
March 3rd, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Wow…now there’s a thought.
I think you may be right.
March 3rd, 2008 at 5:15 pm
My thought on this is that it came down to something between C.J. Mahaney and Larry Tomczak who were the two co founding leaders of the group. As other people have also pointed out, Mahaney is dictatorial over the whole group including who they call their “apostolic team.” With that being the case, I wonder how objective and fair of a “trial” Tomczak received.
I would have felt much more convinced that Tomczak truly had a pride issue had they brought in outside people to judge this. It wouldn’t surprise me if the goal of the “discipline” was make Tomczak change his views against Calvinism/Reformed theology that Mahaney was apparently leading the group towards. Maybe if Tomczak agreed to change his views or state that they were “heretical” then the discipline would have relented. On the other hand, it is possible that Mahaney’s goal was to keep Tomczak out of power and thus seal his position of authority.
March 3rd, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Hi SGM Cas :-),
Your post #5 was so intriguing to read. I don’t know how you stood up alone under that kind of pressure. No doubt those calls from the senior pastor of your old SGM church were intimidating, and I would have been livid, too! Talk about the sending out the Thought Police! That’s off the chain!
I have a manager at work who is a nice guy and we get along, but he has a problem with always needing to be in control. In doing so he tends to quash ideas that didn’t come from him originally. Fortunately I have a good relationship with his supervisor and he hates the fact that we often have lunch together. Now and then she confides in me and likes to talk over situations that involve his decisions. She and I think alike and she understands how this other guy tends to be. She is normally there to validate my thinking and confirm my efforts even if my manager has responded negatively to my input or ideas. Talking to her builds my confidence.
While SGM views this blog as gossip, we know that talking about SGM helps us all to sort out the issues they didn’t “allow” us to talk about inside of SGM. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, when it comes to our like precious faith, Jesus warned us to be on our guard because there are spiritual dangers inherent in pharisaical people and the controlling forces they use to undermine our confidence. Thought and faith are important, and in order to develop discernment, we need to be able to discuss and talk about the things that confront us.
I admire the stand you took in not calling the guy back, and your gut feeling was right about his reason for calling you in the first place. My guess is he never responded to your email, did he?
March 3rd, 2008 at 5:51 pm
That’s sad. Seems like a problem when you try to be a church, that you have to have all of your views figured out and then live by them. I don’t know what’s true of Larry and CJ’s situation, but the movement after some point seems to have had more identity crises than identity.
Sorry to hear about your story, Dennis (post 9), but thanks for sharing it.
All of this seems to make me think about what is more important: being in a “church” or being a Christian.
March 3rd, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Steve,
You wrote,
Well, for those who were in PDI when Larry left, it was quite obvious how there was a sudden and drastic shift in the ministry’s doctrine and focus after he left/was ousted. The focus inward and morbid preoccupation with sin was almost immediate with CJ’s rise to power, as was the deemphasis of anything that swung charismatic. It was quite the gear-grinding transition. But initially the whole “paradigm shift” (as we heard a bajillion times over) was served up as a renewed emphasis on accountability and godly character. (And who’s going to argue w/ those noble intentions?)
As I said in an earlier post, it seemed like Larry and Seedge provided great balance when they were co-leading. But, in looking back, when a ministry experiences such a drastic shift in emphasis with the removal of one of its leaders, it sure does (at minimum) open up the door for speculation as to the possibility of ulterior motives at play.
Claireon,
You wrote,
This can’t be emphasized enough. Coming to this blog and working through the issues I had with Sovereign Grace has helped me so much. Ironically enough, if SGM leaders hadn’t maintained such a choke hold on communication — defining any discussion about questions about the ministry as gossip/slander — this blog probably wouldn’t have ever drawn the attention it has.
But when they dismissed each of us who came to them w/ questions and concerns and/or hurled accusations our way for daring to question anything that was sanctioned from above, they probably never anticipated that all of these individual entities would one day find each other and develop a cyber support group of sorts that just happens to be publicly viewable and searchable. Their dirty little deeds, which seemed to be done under the cloak of darkness, have now been brought into the light and are available for scrutiny by the masses so they, like Semper, can take note and take cover.
Heck, even Wikipedia noticed their self-serving wrangling and shored up their own page with a more balanced perspective on the ministry. So what started as one little link to this blog has now been transformed into a much more thorough history of Sovereign Grace, with the inclusion of specific criticisms summarized on the page itself. When will they see that their attempts to bury the truth have led to the truth being trumpeted even louder and more visibly? I was probably the main one editing the page, putting the blog link back up after SGMer(s) would take it down. But it never occurred to me to contact Wikipedia and appeal that a Wiki editor intervene.
I do wonder how many things these leaders would have done differently if they had been able to foresee one a forum like this sprouting up and growing at such a meteoric rate. Would they have been so cocky in their defense of their deplorable shepherding practices? Would they have been so glib in dismissing serious trauma as just God-ordained circumstances that were better than we deserved? Would they have been so eager to erase the indelible mark one of their original leaders made on the ministry? Would they have scrubbed their worship of all songs that speak of enjoying intimacy with the Lord or the Father’s great love — and purged all songs that speak of God as being our Friend b/c one man declared that it was arrogance to call God our Friend? Would they have completely stripped the resurrection from the doctrine of the cross — along with all of its implications for us?
With all of their navel gazing and emphasis on sin, how is it that these glaring doctrinal inconsistencies and abusive practices seemed to go unchecked with such wanton abandon? I think that’s the thing I’ll never quite “get” in all of my efforts to wrap my mind around my experience with Sovereign Grace Ministries.
March 3rd, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Oh, Claireon, meant to answer your question … no, the pastor never responded to my email. Go figure. heh
But he never called me again either, so I was glad I set that boundary and kept him at arm’s length. It was a small victory for me in breaking free from their control … and staying free.
March 3rd, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Re 27
Excellent post, SG Cas. You very eloquently captured so many of the emotions and thoughts I had when struggling with my SG friend and trying to understand the truth about all of this.
You said, “how is it that these glaring doctrinal inconsistencies and abusive practices seemed to go unchecked with such wanton abandon? ”
That IS the question, isn’t it? But then I think of your comments about dark deeds being brought to the light, and we do know that Scriptures clearly indicate that will happen. And in His way and in His time, it is happening.
I just want to thank Kris again and ask that we continue to lift her and this blog up in prayer so it can continue be the incredible tool that it’s been.
March 3rd, 2008 at 8:44 pm
I also think that was an excellent post SG Cas.
But when they dismissed each of us who came to them w/ questions and concerns and/or hurled accusations our way for daring to question anything that was sanctioned from above, they probably never anticipated that all of these individual entities would one day find each other and develop a cyber support group of sorts that just happens to be publicly viewable and searchable. Their dirty little deeds, which seemed to be done under the cloak of darkness, have now been brought into the light and are available for scrutiny by the masses so they, like Semper, can take note and take cover.
I remember Mahaney quoting this Scripture:
Num 32:23-24
But if you will not do so, behold, you have sinned against the Lord, and be sure your sin will find you out.
NASB
Perhaps soon his sin will find him out? If it does then I sure how he shows some humility and does what he said the ballplayer who used hormones should have done. It will be interesting to see if he practices what he teaches.
March 3rd, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Wow! What a topic, and so many subtopics and points brought up that I’d love to comment on, so here goes:
Kris’s first/main question is WHY such fear? And what causes it? I think we all have pretty much gotten a grasp on the many reasons for this. But some other things came to mind as I was reading.
First of all, the type of fear that we are talking about here is not only very real, it’s the type that paralyzes you. And there’s only one place that comes from. I remember reading “The Bondage Breaker” by Neil Anderson years ago. In that book, he said something I’ll never forget, that went something like this: As Christians, Satan can’t harm us, but he has a tool that he uses to make us defenseless. That tool is Fear.
And there’s something else – Fear is a spirit. Prayer, in Jesus’ name, is our weapon against fear. And Scripture. And we need to remember that…
Perfect love casts out fear. AND the truth shall set you free.
Now, if perfect love (Christ is the perfect love represented in this verse) casts out fear, and so many people are afraid to TELL THE TRUTH, then maybe the people or organization they fear so much aren’t exactly filled with (Christ’s) love? (I know it’s the actual repercussions they fear, like the examples given above, and not always the people themselves, although sometimes that is the case. And I certainly don’t mean to judge anyone’s heart, I’m just saying, connect the dots.) I know the people who are pursuing, having meetings, or whatever, THINK they’re doing what they’ve been taught to do out of love, but if it actually causes fear in so many people, how could it be real love (as defined in 1Cor 13).
The truth sets you free – that is God’s Word. So, how can telling the truth – in love – be wrong? We need to check our motives of course. I know my motive for writing on this blog is honestly to warn others. (I am not advising you to start blogging if you really do fear terrible repercussions for your family. You need to take it to the Lord and let HIM lead you, not SG leadership.)
Kris said:
“I got to thinking about just how strange it is that a Christian organization could engender so much fear in its people….What power does Sovereign Grace Ministries have over all these folks, especially now, as many of them have already left?….But isn’t it a little odd that a Christian organization could exert such control over its people?” These people have been brainwashed! SGMCAs went to church, and it sounds like she was being careful who she spoke to and how she spoke, and still someone “reported” to the pastor! I have NEVER heard of such a thing – never! If their doctrine is so sound, they’d be taught to go to that person they have the problem with, like Cas said. I honestly believe SGM is a cult. I’ve said this in other places on the blogs. I’m sorry, but when a pastor tells you NOT to develop relationships outside your church, having people so brainwashed that they all report every little thing back to the pastor, plus everything else we’ve read here, how can you say it’s NOT a cult? Because they do have some good things? I have some Mormon friends – they do a lot of *good* things. They’re very strong on family, they help when disaster strikes, they do missionary work, they love God.
Dennis, SGMCas, Kris, et al,
“And since we are spirits housed in bodies, and our spirits and bodies are inextricably connected, wouldn’t it make sense that one’s body would essentially “turn” on itself, attacking its own immunities?”
There is a book by Dr Henry Wright Called “A More Excellent Way” (Dennis, maybe you read, heard about his teachings). He has a ministry at a place in Thomaston, GA, called Pleasant Valley Church. Here’s the link:
http://www.pleasantvalleychurch.net/
People are healed of physical problems and all kinds of incurable diseases every day, by doing exactly what you did, Dennis. He’s actually know around the World. He teaches how our physical bodies are sick because of spiritual reasons.
Claireon – You talked about how they act like the Pharisees. I just mentioned that the other day on one of the other blogs, where a situation (with leadership) at my church paralleled exactly what the Pharisees did. So, the “worst sinners they know” who always “talk” about humility, can never admit THEY might be wrong, or dealing with pride when it comes to their congregation. What’s wrong with this picture?
By the way, I just have to say, something awesome happened yesterday. We visited a church yesterday that we probably won’t make our home church, but they were having a special visitor who has a ministry speak – an “apostle” we found out during the service – uh oh…We were getting nervous with that “apostolic” ministry talk.
Well, this guy says to the church something like this:
If I have ever come between you and The Lord Jesus Christ please forgive me, and let me know. Don’t ever let me do that. There should be NO ONE between you and God, you and Jesus. You don’t need a priesthood, you don’t need pastors, you need JESUS. He will lead you!. Wow, what a confirmation, considering we JUST left very recently, and it’s been really hard. AND the SG pastor of course was telling us we needed THEIR counsel on what we should believe, and how we should worship, etc, they wanted another meeting, and my hubby didn’t give in. Well, my story is on another thread, but we were so excited about what we heard from this awesome brother in Christ!
Thanks Kris for the website, and for all you have to do to keep up with it!
Remember silent readers/non-bloggers- Perfect love CASTS OUT fear AND The TRUTH shall set you FREE!
March 3rd, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Hi, all…
My dad had to go out of town for a meeting, so my mom flew in to spend some time with us and her grandkids. I’ve been out of pocket most of the day and now have to do what some of you do – I have to catch up on the comments!
Thanks for all the great thoughts. Do keep the site in your prayers. I’ll be around some more tomorrow morning.
March 4th, 2008 at 12:02 am
Francie,
That is so funny that you mentioned Pastor Wright’s book, because I actually read that book while attending SGM and gave it to my pastor to read. I asked him to take a look at it, and see what he thought about it. I never got the book back nor an answer. And then we left the church, and I just figured I would buy another copy. But the funny thing was, that this pastor’s wife struggled with Fibromyalgia. And do you remember what the book said about that one? I think (may be wrong) that it had to do with fear and a controlling spirit in their midst….like an authority in their life. Do you still have the book? What did it say? I can’t remember!! But I do remember reading a lot about fear, bitterness, and unforgiveness. And I agree with what many of you said in this post about the physical body being directly related to the health of our spiritual life. We are made of mind, body, emotions and spirit….and you can’t split them apart, as they are all connected. Oh my gosh I almost broke out into “The Lion King Circle of Life Song.” How funny… am I sounding New Age…omg….I need to go to bed!
March 4th, 2008 at 1:48 am
HiC #17:
You said “Because when you dissent, have a discipline issue or decide to leave…..EVERYONE IS SUSPECT of being some type of spy or informant.”
SO TRUE. Especially as someone who grew up in this environment… We, as kids, were encouraged to rat each other out for any minor offense. There was no such thing as “tattling”… It was holding each other accountable in brotherly love. (Personally, I think ‘tattling’ is a more succinct term on many levels.) How frustrating to grow up in an environment where you rapidly learn that no one can be spoken to “in confidence”! The moment a new crush was reported, every parent in the vicinity seemed to know, and of course children overhear most of what their parents don’t want them to. Growing up it felt as though there was absolutely no such thing as privacy of information, and indeed it was as strongly discouraged as the parents could make it.
Quite an interesting diversion from thestance taken on gossip or interference in church-mandated discipline, if you ask me. Leadership holds such a strong policy of the ‘neither part of the problem nor solution so don’t interfere’, yet when it comes to informing of potential infractions it’s quite a different matter.
This divisiveness breaks my heart. It caused particular distress in times when I was struggling… Whenever I was having a spiritual, emotional, just life problem, those were the times I most needed human connection and reassurance, but were also the times I felt most threatened by the connections I had since I worried that any doubt I relayed could, and probable would, be passed on to those in authority as some form of rebellion or sin issue.
Within many families, I saw this manifest by causing people to be afraid to discuss things that were bothering them, since nothing was likely to remain between the two parties involved. Again, connecting back to the line between what constitutes gossip vs. confrontation and counsel. The paranoia and withdrawal caused families to be further and further fractured by the slightest of offenses. Ignoring problems doesn’t make them go away!
IGotOut #21–
I second your confirmation. I have earler mentioned my familial connections to some of the pastoral families and Larry Tomzcak is included… I was a kid when all the drama went down but can certainly say that when the split occured he and all who left with him were pretty much erased from the family bible. He was a favorite relative of mine and I found it extremely confusing and upsetting. The reasons for his departure were never fully explained to me and even now most of what I know is through study and sleuthing. I wasn’t allowed to speak to Larry at all once he left.
EIsMom #22–
I hear you. Since I’ve left my sister has had to make a whole new circle of friends since those who knew us as a family ostracized her for my departure. She has hesitantly confessed to me that among the new friends she has chosen to not mention she even has another sister since the family has so thoroughly wiped me from the books and she is afraid that mentioning the ‘black sheep’ will inhibit her from church connections. She is eighteen so her connections are more peer-based than political but the sentiment still prevails.
SGM Cas #27–
Well, seeing as I found this blog through the Wikipedia link… I want to extend you my personal thanks for making sure it stays up. :-D Finding this site has been a lifesaver for me, honestly.
March 4th, 2008 at 7:18 am
My husband and I were talking about this post before I put it up, and he said something interesting.
I was telling him how I have a difficult time understanding why the SGM people who write me don’t just leave their churches, if they’re so unhappy. I mean, if someone is disturbed enough about his church that he writes an anonymous email to a blog moderator, isn’t that a sign that there’s something seriously wrong? Yet many of these people talk about their churches as though they could never consider leaving.
My husband said, “Well, I guess it’s like the way an abused spouse feels.”
I thought that was pretty profound. There IS a similar dynamic going on. In the classic “abused wife” scenario, the abusive husband is controlling, but he’s also demeaning, so that he causes her to believe what he says about her ability to take care of herself and be independent. Many controlling spouses (I realize that not all abusive spouses are male…but for the sake of our discussion here, we’ll just use the cliche) limit their wives’ social circles, often to the point where they really only have their husbands. Many abused wives believe that they will never find another man to take care of them.
I’m sure there are other similarities to the abused spouse scenario.
March 4th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Kris,
I guess I’ve always seen the similarities because I was in an abusive relationship with a significant other.
The harsh abuse or physical abuse doesn’t come until later. What comes first is the slow mind control, the wearing down of one’s self esteem by the abuser. It’s the frog in the kettle scenario, where the frog doesn’t realize the water is gradually getting hotter until it’s too late.
I was going to post this yesterday in response to your first post in this thread, but IMHO, part of the fear that’s trapping at least some of these folks could very well be the “fear that I’m wrong and that they’re right.”
They might intellectually know that the things they’re hearing are wrong, but something inside them probably feels like it’s a cop out to believe what feels right in their heart. So they’re reading stuff here, getting validation from you, but internally they”re conflicted, afraid to believe it’s really that “easy.” They can leave, they can be happy once again, they can be free? Really? It probably sounds too good to be true because they’ve been taught that the easy way is wrong, the way that feels right is wrong, your heart is always wrong, etc.
I’ve been there, I know. I thought that if I left him, that all the he bad things he said about me were true.
Just my 2 cents…
March 4th, 2008 at 8:41 am
This is my first post, although I have been reading (almost unceasingly!) this blog since I found it just a few short days ago. My family and I could echo many of the stories shared here. I am greatly saddened that this kind of abuse has happened to others, but at the same time, I now know that we are not alone. Thank you all for sharing, I know how difficult it is to open up your hearts and your lives to all of us… thank you for your honesty and, especially for your courage!
Regarding this topic… I agree with Lynn’s thoughts (#36) in that, I DID feel like we had done something wrong (we had questioned leadership… GASP!), because that’s what we were told by the leadership of our church. This might sound weird to those of you who didn’t get involved in SG “up to your eyeballs” like my family and I did. It IS mind control, brain washing if you will, and it is a slow but steady process. The deeper you become involved in the life of the church, the more enmeshed you are in submitting to leadership without question. It’s what SGM’er’s are taught… “be good little soldiers”. And before you know what happened or how you got there, you are THERE.
Also, when we were “asked” to leave, we had no idea that this had happened to others. When people had left our church prior to our departure, we were told that it was “doctrinal differences” or they were “disgruntled”. Much to my shame, I never questioned this response, and therefore never tried to contact these families to get their story. (After all, SGM is THE only church… they must be crazy to have left… my thought processes back then… UGH!) So, if it had “never happened to anyone else”, we had to be at fault, right?
I am seeing now that, even though I’m sure we were wrong in some areas, we were not at fault in how our situation was handled. We were sinned against. Asking valid questions of leadership regarding wrong practices is not “sinning against them”.
At some point, I may share our story, our journey to “SGM’s Trash Heap” :-), but as of now, I feel the need to work through these issues, and I don’t want to share out of anger and/or bitterness. That would not honor God, it just wouldn’t be “right”.
One thought, though, before I go… has anyone else noticed what I perceive as nepotism that seems (to me, anyway) rampant in SGM? Pastor’s daughters marrying SGM pastoral interns, or, having married someone (in SGM, of course… I heard it was a sin to marry outside of SGM, even if they are a Christian… just kidding, but it does seem that way) they are suddenly “leadership material” and sent to the pastor’s college? Or, through the courtship teaching/process, leaders daughters are “matched” to young men that have been “identified” as leadership material? CJ’s daughters all married pastors, and, in my area, pastors sons and/or sons-in-law’s (regardless of gifting) are sent to the pastors college. It just seems to me that SGM has a new wave of up-and-coming leaders that are related to current leaders in SGM. Not all, but it seems to be happening more and more. Anyone else noticing this trend or am I seeing things that don’t exist? I could be, as that’s basically what we were told when we brought questions, concerns, and observations to our pastor… ;-)
Things that make you go Hmmmmm…
Anyway, thanks again for your hearts and for your honesty.
March 4th, 2008 at 10:14 am
Prodigal Daughter,
I have seen the same culture of tattling among the youth at my SG church. It really does produce a fear of betrayal and a forced conformity to certain outward standards of behavior. There is also an underworld where the “bad kids” sneak around in secrecy and do all the “bad things” away from the prying eyes of the “good kids” and parents.
In many of these cases I as an adult would see obivious signs of drug use, sexual activity, etc and the parents were oblivious. The parents were so dependent on tattlers for information that they were not used to looking for other signs of problems themselves. BTW I believe in talking to the individual with the problem, not going to the authorities first.
I always felt unable to convince parents to stop this culture of tattling. Why would they listen to me when I have no children? I have tried to do my part by reaching out to those that are hurt and hope to make a difference that way. Some of these people just need to see what a heart-level relationship with God is like, not a set of rules.
March 4th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Hi Lynn,
Your post #36 helped to put the finger on the effect the emphasis on “indwelling sin” has on everyone. I had always sensed that it was a means to an end, but what you said made me realize the intended effect:
I agree with you. The way SGM has taught and emphasized “indwelling sin” hasn’t been to bring people more “into the gospel”, but to sow seeds of self-doubt so that everyone would follow the leadership without question. People are trained to question themselves FIRST, and to NOT question the leadership. Questions raised about the leadership are turned on the questioner in such a way as to cause them to fear their own thinking, fear their own hearts, etc. Also, the leadership is like one big gang, and who are you? You’re just a mere individual and you’re not important because you’re not part of the leadership, right?
Well now, well now. Here we are. Now we have our gang
. I gotta tell you that I tempted to laugh at what SGM must be doing in response to this negative press.They’re only used to glowing reports about how wonderful they are and how humble they are, and anything other than glowing reports is just slander and gossip! Poor guys. What will they do? All they can do is act tough and dismiss dissenting voices as irrelevant while continuing to practice their game of control. But repent? As Amy Winehouse would say, “No, no, no!”
Well, I don’t think any of us should feel sorry for SGM in all of this. They had fair warning. We aren’t the first ones to voice these complaints. There have been plenty of attempts. And what was the response? “You’re the problem.” I’m sure they think that the effects of this blog will all blow over soon and they can get back to keeping their hair in place. Unless, of course, they’re bald. The bald guys will say the problem is messy hair and the solution is to shave it off! But hey! No worries! It’s cool to be a clone of CJ!
March 4th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Welcome, Voice from the SGM Trash Heap — can we call you V-SGM-TH? Sorry, the government has brainwashed me!
I’m glad you’ve found this site and are getting the healing and answers you need. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on various topics here, and I’m sure many others are, as well.
L
March 4th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Claireon,
Thanks for the chuckes! You dared to quote Amy Winehouse on a religious blog?? For shame!!
Other than what has gone on at Wikipedia, does anyone know the effects of this blog in regard to upper-eschalon leadership? Is anyone able to ascertain how far off our “rumblings” are being felt in various SG chuches country- and world-wide?
March 4th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Hi AVoice,
Welcome aboard, and great post! I think your observations are right on the money. There always semmed to be a very cliquish and elite group amongst leadership and their relatives. The courtship teaching made it easy for pastors to team their sons and daughters with others in leadership, just as you noticed. It seemed more the rule than the exception. When I was there, Josh Harris was befriending our assoc Pastor’s daughter, and there was much talk about them possibly getting together. Everyone was very excited about this possibility, but it never happened.
March 4th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Hey Trash
,
I wish I had time to comment on your post further, but you really captured it when you said,
SO TRUE!
Thanks for posting!
March 4th, 2008 at 10:40 am
I don’t know the effects on SG leadership but if SG doesn’t encourage folks to bring and study the bible for themselves at cell groups because they don’t have the capacity to interpret correctly I am guessing they will write off bloggers as well.
I think I had heard McCarther say something about people who are in house churches are people who are rebellious. ( or something to that effect ) I suppose by his definaition and standard they/we are.
There was an article on Christianity Today online that was titled ” Oh no,here comes the bloggers.” I don’t remember the exact context but I didn’t like it . It could be interpreted two ways either bloggers are rebellious,uneducated,undiscerning types that don’t fit into the staus quo or we are whistleblowers.
March 4th, 2008 at 10:47 am
I was just looking at the Wikipedia entry on SGM, and I hope not everyone believes everything they read. It says Larry T. created TAG, whereas TAG began with an association with a local area church, and its first meetings were in a nice Little lady’s basement. It later relocated, as it grew, to meet at a small rec center. CJ became a Christian in 1972, and by 1974 was occasionally (and then did most of) did the speaking. Larry grew up in Ohio, and after finishing college located in DC because of a job. He became afiliated with TAG after CJ. He was very instrumental in its growth, but was not it’s founder or creator, as Wikipedia states.
When Larry T separated from SGM, the tensions and distance in relationships in Doris’s family were not SGM dictated, but were the result of hurtful things said during the “investigation” process that resulted in the church discipline. LT was approached regarding pride issues, which he evaluated, prayed about, and then agreed were present. He agreed to terms of an admittedly under-developed disciplinary procedure, which was to include stepping down from a leadership position for a specified number of months, during which time he would apply himself to prayer, study, and seeking to grow in the area of humility vs. pride. All of this was documented in a letter written BY Larry T and signed BY Larry T, which was distributed to any and all SGM members who desired a copy of the letter.
The difficulty occurred when, after a certain period of time Larry T decided he’d had enough, decided there was no longer a problem, did not wish to submit to the agreed-upon time of not being in a leadership position, and decided that he did not agree with SGM leadership. The leadership believed there were still issues, belived he should fulfill his commitment to stay out of leadership for the time being, and continue to work on issues of arrogance and pride. He disagreed. SGM felt they had no option but to sever the tie, because Larry T desired to lead, and SGM did not agree with having him lead one of his churches, since he refused to be submitted to their leadership.
Whether there were rights or wrongs on both sides is not the point I am trying to make. I am sure there were wrongs on both sides. I am certain there are mistakes made within SGM at times, by church leaders, and by SGM higher-ups at times. But this can be/is true in any large ministry. I am grieved and saddened by the pains and injuries that have been experienced by some individuals in their SGM experience. I still, though, firmly believe SGM is filled with godly individuals seeking to serve God, obey God, and help people. I have great respect for the SGM leaders, and believe that many individuals are misconstruing certain things that have happened within SGM to be indicative of an overall policy within SGM, which just isn’t the case. The SGM policy is to evaluate situations according to scripture and do their best to operate their churches as God wants them to. Unfortunately, people do make mistakes, and even when they are trying to do what they think God wants them to do, they are sometimes wrong. And sometimes they are mistaken, and sometimes they are confused.
My own experience within SGM has been that it is not perfect. My joining the church only contributed to its imperfection, since I myself am also not perfect. The leaders not only know that their churches are not perfect, but they also know that they themselves are not perfect. They seek to do the Lord’s will. This whole conversation about focusing on their own sin is not only totally scriptural, but is also being presented one-sidedly. The churches do not focus members only on their own sin and then stop there. They focus individuals on their own sin and their need for a savior, and then lead them to Christ and his forgiveness, and our need to stay close to Him and close to our awareness that we will never be perfect while we live on this earth. The awareness of our sinfulness is balanced against an awareness of God’s grace, and the fact that in our salvation, we receive something that we couldn’t earn. We are taught to treat others with grace, and not give them what we think they deserve (for their sins against us, i.e. wrath, justice), but to treat them as Christ treats us, by extending to them grace (letting them receive what, in their sinfulness, they do not receive — forgiveness, love, kindness, etc.).
Long winded. Sorry. Thanks for reading.
One Mom in SG
March 4th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Hi SGM Single,
back in the early 90s or so, I remember in parenting classes tattling was not encouraged and kids were encouraged to work things out. I wonder what changed?
March 4th, 2008 at 10:53 am
btw: WELCOME, Voice!
March 4th, 2008 at 11:03 am
LOL, Claireon!
March 4th, 2008 at 11:04 am
One Mom,
I like what you say. Can I ask a question? Can you tell us how long you have been a christian, who discipled you and your thoughts on apostolic gov’t.?
Lastly, if within a month you were to leave your church for a reason that leadership didn’t think was right what would happen? If you disagreed would you ‘submit’ and stay or would leadership ‘relent’ and let you go. Just curious.
March 4th, 2008 at 11:09 am
Kris
Good points that you and Lynn made here.
One other thought I would have about people not leaving besides what was said is that many have a lot invested in the group that makes it harder for them to leave or “cut their losses” as I have heard some say. That is one factor an abused spouse has that makes it hard for her to leave.
Perhaps with all that is invested there is this hope that things will get better?
Just another thought.