Every day, I get a lot of interesting email. Some people write to ask questions. Some people write to tell me how horribly sinful the site is. Some folks – for whatever reason – want advice. But mostly, people write to tell me their stories.
I read every one of these emails, and even when someone sees fit to give me a good tongue-lashing (or would that be “keyboard-lashing”? :-) ), I really do enjoy hearing from people. I’m a fairly speedy typist and love to write, so if you email me, you’ll probably get at least one reply. And if your original email strikes my fancy for whatever reason, you might even find that I have quite a lot to say in response.
So anyway, over the past few months, I’ve had many conversations with folks about their Sovereign Grace experiences. I’ve never done an official tally, but I know I’ve heard far more SGM stories via email than have been shared on the site itself.
One striking aspect of so many of the stories people have told me is the almost palpable fear that lurks behind their words. Often, their entire reason for sending email rather than posting their stories to the blog is because they are afraid that if they share publicly, even if they do so anonymously, they might be recognized. Apparently, if their fellow SGM-ers were to find out that they are dissatisfied with aspects of their Sovereign Grace experience, and are sharing about these on a website, terrible things could befall them.
I have to say, for a long time, I never gave these writers’ fear much thought. I understand what it’s like to worry about disappointing people. I have my own reasons for not blogging under my full identity. Because we did not have a bad experience at our Sovereign Grace church but were instead treated very kindly by our SGM pastors, we’ve always believed that they do not deserve to have this site reflect personally on them or their particular church, especially because we’d still like to believe that their congregation is far more grace-based than some and does not manifest the problems that others have described here. Why should they have to suffer because we were bothered by nagging undercurrents, had questions, and then blogged about them?
So I can understand the desire for secrecy.
But the other day, after receiving email from four different individuals who all, in one way or another, expressed their desire to maintain even more anonymity than the website affords, I got to thinking about just how strange it is that a Christian organization could engender so much fear in its people. What, after all, could befall your average Sovereign Grace person if it were discovered that he or she had expressed dissatisfaction online?
Certainly I could not imagine anything truly sinister. I couldn’t picture CJ Mahaney or any other pastor sending out his goons to rough up the individual who had, for instance, shared that she’d been castigated and reprimanded by church leadership for daring to pray for a married woman when she herself is still single. I couldn’t see an angry mob of men with shaved heads and oversized shirts all wielding baseball bats and coming after the gentleman who told of being disciplined for not tithing. I certainly couldn’t envision what was so scandalous about the story of the family who had decided to leave because they’d been rebuked for asking hard questions about their church’s ambitious building program.
Why were they so desperate to keep the stories of their dissatisfaction anonymous?
What power does Sovereign Grace Ministries have over all these folks, especially now, as many of them have already left?
I really don’t know.
I am aware, of course, that many SGM families worry about losing their social lives, which, after some years, tend to revolve around the church and its activities. Some writers have told of extended family whose livelihoods depend upon maintaining good relations with SGM. I guess many people feel like they just have too much to lose, and that it’s too risky for them to come out and even semi-publicly express any dissatisfaction.
Like I said, I can understand this, to a point.
But isn’t it a little odd that a Christian organization could exert such control over its people?
The other day, my sister and I were talking about how many emails I receive from frightened people. That’s when it suddenly hit me that this sort of fear is a very obvious sign that SGM is NOT a normal Christian organization. My sister and I reminisced about how many people we knew during our growing-up years who sort of “made the rounds” of the different churches in our small town. They’d be loyal and involved members of our church, and then something would happen and they’d show up at the church down the street…soon to be loyal and involved there. And then something again would happen, and they’d come back to our church, where it didn’t take a terribly long time for them to be back to their same level of involvement.
Although of course these folks received their share of patronizing smiles, and although some people jokingly referred to them as “church tramps,” their personal embarrassment was really the ONLY consequence of their leaving. Nobody ever spoke ill of them or tried to frame stories about their departure. To the best of my knowledge, they retained their standing in the community and did not see any disruptions in their significant relationships. It was relatively easy for them to return, and they did not have to work to “re-earn” their “credibility” so that they could once again be considered “qualified” for service.
Doubtless, lack of commitment is not a desirable trait in a church member. I’m not in any way saying that it’s good for a church to encourage its people to be flaky. But the level of fear that comes through in the emails I receive is all out of proportion to what’s actually at stake, if Sovereign Grace Ministries is truly a family of “regular” churches. The body of Christ – the “church universal” – is a wonderfully varied and diverse group these days. No single Bible-believing, Bible-teaching denomination or group has a corner on the market of “correct” doctrine or proper methods of fostering fellowship. If you are having serious doubts about your church, or if you have been hurt or harmed by church discipline run amuck, you can find another place to worship and to serve.
If you find yourself irrationally fearing otherwise – if you find yourself laboring under the notion that you cannot leave your current church without horrible harm befalling you and your family - that might be the most obvious sign that it’s time to get out of Dodge.
I never got the "meeting" thing, either. 
March 5th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
sgm single
ok if you take the last part of my login name, and add shae to it, im at lycos.com
anyone else who wishes to email me may, but if you are looking for a fight, i may just block you
March 5th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Newbie
Timothy may be the exception-Paul indicates that Timothy was a believer as a child (at a time in history when being a believer was putting you at physical risk).
He also speaks of the training he received from his mother (if I remember correctly). It seems that in this context, Paul is saying to Timothy not to worry about his youth.
March 5th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Hi One Mom,
That was an excellent post and very well explained. I am so glad that you chose to remain here with us after being blasted! Thank you for your patience and forgiveness to the harsh responses. Please continue to post here and share your thoughts. Your imput is very valueable.
March 5th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
exinternsmom said, “Bold face lies were told about my family FROM THE PULPIT…”
My point would be, do you therefore convict the person who did it? Or do you convict the SGM Leadership, whom you have not tried for the offense.
You wrote:
“Furthermore, you state that you are grieved and saddened by the pain some folks here have suffered….and then go on to say that things are being misconstrued.”
Again, I clarify that I said the SGM Leadership at Large was being held accountable for offenses that occurred lower down the totem pole. I was trying to point out that it appears that people see something happen in Phoenix, or Virginia, or Denver, and blame Maryland. The offending individual is the one who is doing the wrong, and it cannot be assume or “MISCONSTRUED” that SGM Leadership condones what happened.
I had written: “The SGM policy is to evaluate situations according to scripture and do their best to operate their churches as God wants them to.”
I wish I had inserted “Leadership” after the SGM. Again, charges against individual pastors or care group leaders (and I AM saying the charges are LEGITIMATE) do not indicate that “SGM LEADERSHIP” would agree with how the pastor (small “p”) is handling the situation.
You wrote:
“Their teaching on sin is not balanced with grace….or victory….or joy…..or anything remotely outside the picture…”
The SGM church where I am DOES balance sin teaching against grace, etc. in a very biblical way, that helps us 1) not to despair in condemnation, but 2) not to rest on our laurels because we’re “good enough”. There is blalance.
You wrote:
“Then explain the ‘discipline’ meetings where lies are told, families are ripped apart, people are told to quit talking to anyone who leaves SGM.”
I don’t know what “discipline” meetings you are talking about, but where lies are being told, the lier is wrong. I have never been told to quit talking to anyone who leaves SGM. I have been told to keep the relationships, as best I am able (meaning only that I am busy, and am sometimes not able to keep up relationships with people I do not see in the normal course of my life), and to continue to love the individuals.
You wrote:
“Explain the elitism that pits SGM as better than any other church.”
I do not see that where I am. SGM is just one of the church choices. People need to attend a church they are comfortable with. If they are not comfortable with SGM’s position on baptism, they should attend a church that lines up with what they believe about baptism, etc. If individuals within SGM develop clique-ishness, that cannot be construed as a policy held by SGM Leadership. Even the leadership is comfortable with being involved with non-SGM churches, hence the affiliations with Mark Dever’s church, John Piper’s church, Jerry Bridges’ church, etc.
You wrote:
“Explain the situations that are exposed through out this blog. ”
Explain what? If SGM Leadership in Gaithersburg were approached directly, they could address the wrongs. I am not them. I am no one. I, again, reiterate that I have no difficulty acknowledging that wrongs have occurred, and that there are / have been people in positions of leadership in the SGM heirarchy who have wronged people, and this should not have been. My point, again, is that the individual is the guilty party, but I cannot see a direct connection to say that CJ should be held accountable for something Pastor “so-and-so” or care group leader “so-and-so” did, or that CJ (or SGM’s larger ministry) condoned serious child abuse being dismissed without being redirected to proper professionals. I don’t see it appropriate to try to make that “connection”.
You wrote:
“No, One Mom, there is no grace, no kindness, no forgiveness or love extended to those who question, to those who do not hold the leadership as having the authority to speak for God, as infallible in teaching and practice”
I say again, in yet another way, I never said leadership should be held as speaking infallibly for God, etc. I believe all leadership should be evaluated and held to the standard of God’s word.
You wrote:
“I am very angry too, and yes, very sad , that One Mom is so deceived, that she has the arrogance to post such patronizing crap, and that by doing so, she is no doubt compounding the trauma experienced by so many of us. I agree…it is a cult, and I am so thankful that we are out.”
I still do not think I am deceived, and I think I was being misunderstood. I do not think I am be arrogant, or extending empty patronization. I was sincere.
::sigh::
When did this blog turn into an “Attack One Mom” blog?
March 5th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
First time post…
In response to One Mom’s post, she mentions Proverbs 17:9 as a verse C.J. applies to the situation. How do SGM’s actions in making sure other churches know about your offense if you’re taken off the roll at one church lead to your offense being concealed in love? The offense isn’t concealed…it’s made public! Isn’t that more of a gossip track that the second half of that verse tends toward?
March 5th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Thanks musicman, I stand corrected. I shouldn’t be contributing to hearsay.
Thanks One Mom, for you respectful post. I appreciated your self-control. I was sort of surprised by SGM Cas’s intense response. I have not known her to be like this.
Steve, way back I think you corrected me about the church discipline stuff. I probably didn’t know what I was talking about.
March 5th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
And to add one thing, I do think One Mom was being sincere in her first and subsequent posts.
March 5th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
From my perspective…some of what One Mom says hits a very tender nerve. Maybe exposing that we who have been hit there repeatedly before and are bruised deeply are still a bit tender there. It’s hard to hear, from anyone really, that it isn’t that big a deal. We’re still battling through for healing and when we get poked on the nerve…a reflex defensive reaction occurs. I don’t know One Mom’s heart…no one does…not even One Mom, according to Scripture. I honestly thought I was more “healed” than I am because I had a similar reaction to the comments as SGM Cas. (Not to speak for you, my friend…)
One Mom-
You need to try to understand that this is a forum for those of us who would not be heard while at SGM get to be heard. Notice I said would not be heard instead of could not be heard. We were, most of us, committed to SGM churches just as you are. We gave and gave and gave. And we were hurt…badly. It’s a bit insensitive to say, in response to the pain being displayed here,
“Amazing…I have such power”.
Apparently, somewhere deep inside some of us…or maybe just me, I still want to be heard and not blown off or contradicted on EVERYTHING that happened. I’d like to think that, at some point, the typical SGM responses to such things would bother me. Obviously, I’m not there yet. But, thankfully, my Father loves me no matter what and isn’t done with me yet. I can admit that I need for Him to finish the work He’s begun in me…I can admit it and really mean it. I didn’t see alot of that in SGM leadership.
March 5th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Newbie-
hearsay? Not sure what you mean-can you explain?
March 5th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Hi One Mom,
Just to let you know, I wrote to members of the apostolic team, while in SGM and after I left. I never got any response whatsoever from any of them. They are not accessible to me, nor to most others. The letter I wrote while in SGM was recommended by someone in leadership at my local SG church, and he sent it for me. It was about a marrige situation that we were intimately involved in, that was being handled unbiblically. I never got an answer and the marriage ended in divorce, with the Pastor testifying for the husband and against the wife for custody of the children!!!! This was no small matter. I did not ever get the slightest response except that someone relayed back that he (the apostolic team member) did not agree with my letter. He did not even write back or call me himself!
March 5th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Kris,
Just got to your comment (#137). Thanks.
So people know, I’ve been a part of lots of churches. I’ve always, ALWAYS, had the knowledge that the church I was in was not perfect (meaning that Bible Church, and that PCA church, and that CMA church, and etc., etc., etc.). I’ve always known that it was ludicrous to switch churches because the one I was in was not perfect.
Why, when I say it as a part of an SGM church, am I seen as blind?
March 5th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
When you say what as a part of an SGM church? That you know churches aren’t perfect?
March 5th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
I think we all know that no church is perfect. No place is perfect on this earth. There’s a vast difference between recognizing that people and so churches are imperfect and what many of us experienced at SGM churches. I, too, have been a part of Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God, CMA, and independent non-denominational churches throughout my childhood and adulthood. I have never been through anything at any of these that compares to what I experienced at SGM.
March 5th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
One Mom-
You’re not blind. But many of us (myself included) have experienced great pain at the hands of our pastors and church families when we were involved with SGM.
As for SGMcausulty’s response which was harsh IMO-I still think she had some valid points. I just think the topic (Larry and CJ) is something she feels passionate about because of her experiences with overly harsh church discipline. I can’t claim to speak for her, but that’s my guess. As I watched you’re exchanges over the last day, it reminds me of children arguing over divorced parents.
For many of us, it’s as if CJ and Larry got a divorce, but many of the details for us kids have been left in the dark. This has led to speculation, especially since one parent (CJ) has all but refused to even acknowledge his relationship to Larry. For those of us who were there (I related to both men right before the split) it was confusing and the official explanation was very..well…not very specific. Later, when I found myself close to people who were being treated unfairly and harsh by our church, I often wondered if that was why Larry left in the middle of his “disciplinary process”. Anyway, it reminds me of some of the fallout from divorces when the parents are not honest or forthright about what caused the split.
Not sure if that’s helpful-but that’s my take on why this particular topic is very charged.
March 5th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
For those who are concerned about the intensity of my response to One Mom, yes it did hurt a nerve. A very deep nerve. I guess you would have had to be the recipient of not one but multiple SGM under-developed discipline processes to understand the depth of frustration you face in the midst of one. There is no room for appeal, no room for retreat, and very little grace.
In my case, as I’ve said before, one lasted for years with no sign whatsoever that this leader’s allegations were legit. Yet – just as One Mom stated in her defense of Larry and Doris’ discipline process – you face an impossible situation: If you try to defend yourself in ANY way, you are labeled “proud, arrogant, and unteachable.” And they hold out the thread to “widen the circle.” And if you agree with their evaluations that you are proud or stubborn (as I did … and as One Mom points out Larry did), then you sign away any right to later question the fairness/reasonableness of ANY of their rigid requirements.
I was able to get help and move on from it. My husband was not. His nine-month discipline process for a sin he confessed to leadership was so devoid of grace and filled with so many trap doors, he never recovered. And he was compared to Larry again and again and again. (Perhaps that’s part of the reason reading about Larry’s trumped up discipline process is especially unnerving.) It was uncanny how many similarities he had to him, as far as his personality and evangelistic gifting went. He used to be in the ministry and was inflamed with a heart for the lost and could barely contain his compulsion to share the gospel with as many people as he could. But he’s now an empty shell of the man he once was.
People who haven’t been through one (like One Mom) can hypothesize all they want about how reasonable it is for leadership to deem one of their own as worthy of an extensive discipline process for pride and arrogance. But these under-developed discipline processes have the potential to completely devastate people. And I guess I hit my proverbial breaking point in hearing dismissive justifications for everything leadership does in the area of discipline.
March 5th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
First sentence should read “hit a nerve,” not “hurt a nerve.”
March 5th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Hi all,
There is a possibility that I may be speaking by phone directly to Larry Tomczak. Are there any pertinent questions that anyone wants me to ask him? I will be asking for his permission to post his responses here on this site.
March 5th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
What does he wish he had done differently while he was leading PDI?
Does he regret leaving PDI?
In hind site, how would he have handled (differently)
the whole discipline process initiated by the apostolic team?
March 5th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
musicman, I don’t like it when I throw out unsupported statements I guess, not that anyone knew what I was talking about. I was trying to keep my post short. However, the idea behind my post was wrong to imply that “ordaining” young people shows a lack of wisdom. However, if I could remember the scriptural support that got me to think that I would post it.
In the charged discussion, I think one thing we’re sort of brushing over is distaste over denominational zeal. It has reared its head in laity and clergy alike within SGM.
One Mom, I would agree that separate isolated incidents are not necessarily indicative of the whole organization. If you read on here more of people’s stories and experiences in SGM you might get a different perspective of SGM as a whole (this goes back to my Wal-mart analogy like 200 posts ago). There are also people with extensive insight into the inner workings of SGM.
The worst thing is we’ve come out of these situations with feelings of extreme hurt, no closure or consensus, lack of peace, and isolated. This is not how we are supposed to feel with the purported body of Christ when we have done nothing mentioned in the Bible that has been worthy for us to be cut off. In many of the cases they seem similar and have the stamp of approval of multiple pastors with absolutely no question about it on their part.
I agree that some stories on here have led to more general conclusions about SGM which are not logical. However, our collective group mindset can suffer from some zeal also.
WaywardHippie: it’s nice to have people of your background on here to share their story. It’s validating to have people with such depth of experience from different perspectives. I hope you are doing ok.
Scott
March 5th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Yep…
Please ask him if he, in a position of leadership as I’m sure he is, would lead a man in his care the way he was led by those “caring” for him in SGM. If not, what would he do differently.
March 5th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Dennis-
One more question-
What is his favorite memory of CJ?
March 5th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
I think his favorite memory would be leaving C J behind! :-)
March 5th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Dennis (#203)
Thanks. I’ll continue to read; not sure how often I’ll post. I seem to stir up hornets, and then spend hours trying to calm them…
March 5th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
I Got Out (#207)
My comment “Amazing…I have such power”
was referring specifically to SGM Cas’s apparent decision, based on my entry, that SGM is a cult. I was meaning it is amazing that my comment could be the impetus that sealed her decision, especially when she seemed to be not understanding my initial comment.
SGM Cas (#166)
I am sure things were said by each side that hurt the other.
March 5th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Newbie, (#s 205, 206)
Thank you for accepting me at face value. I am what I show myself to be; I am not false.
March 5th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Hi One Mom,
The hornets will calm down eventually. Please continue to be patient with those who are sending their stinging replies. The wounds here sometimes run very deep. That is not an excuse, just an observation.
March 5th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
IGO (#207)
I never said that what people went through was no big deal. I said it was wrong to say the way it was handled was a “SGM Leadership” practice.
I understand this is a place for people to have their stories heard. But I don’t agree with blaming President Bush when my local sheriff treats me badly on a traffic violation. As I said before, “Amazing, I have such power?!” was it response to SGM Cas’s saying my post pushed her to state that SGM is a cult.
You wrote:
“I still want to be heard and not blown off or contradicted on EVERYTHING that happened.”
I am hearing. I am not blowing off or contradicting your experiences. (No one here’s.) I do know, though, that if my story were told, it would sound different from my husband’s story, which would sound different from the story of my child(ren)… And my husband’s story would be what he truly believed, even if I knew that I remembered it differently… KWIM?
Not sure which “typical” SGM response(s) you are referring to. Think I was misunderstood.
Dennis (#209)
You wrote:
“Just to let you know, I wrote to members of the apostolic team, while in SGM and after I left. I never got any response whatsoever from any of them. They are not accessible to me, nor to most others.”
I’m glad you did that. That is the correct approach.
You wrote:
“The letter I wrote while in SGM was recommended by someone in leadership at my local SG church, and he sent it for me. It was about a marrige situation that we were intimately involved in, that was being handled unbiblically.”
I’d have been making phone calls if I didn’t hear a response to the letter. Course, then I’d just have been someone else’s hornets that they were trying to calm. I know not everyone can just cal SGM and reach one of the “big leaders”.
You wrote:
“I never got an answer and the marriage ended in divorce, with the Pastor testifying for the husband and against the wife for custody of the children!!!! This was no small matter. I did not ever get the slightest response except that someone relayed back that he (the apostolic team member) did not agree with my letter. He did not even write back or call me himself!”
Hmmmm. No, that’s not right. That stinks. Divorce, custody… it always hurts.
March 5th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
IGO (#211)
The point was, why, when as a part of an SGM church I say “No church is perfect, and if I left this church to join some other church it would no longer be perfect, because I am not perfect,” why am I seen as “blind” when I say that. I’ve been saying that for 35 years, and have not been part of SGM for half that time.
IGO had written:
When you say what as a part of an SGM church? That you know churches aren’t perfect?
March 5th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
So, SGM Cas, can I still play quietly in the sandbox?
March 5th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
You can share my bucket…
March 5th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
No problem, One Mom, your tone has come across to me as very pleasant.
Everyone, one thing I observe about us through this situation is that we (SGM critics) seek to understand and not dismiss someone’s thoughts due to any sin. This is one element of compassion and pastoral wisdom that was really missing from the leaders of my SGM church.
SGM Cas, every time I hear more of your story I am surely saddened for you. However I’m sure you’ve recovered a lot sense then, but you’ll always have my support.
Dennis, wow! You’re going to talk to LT? At first thought I”m like wow we are going to have the inside story. On the second thought, I’m having a fear that this might just be another guy who has canned responses and shares similar authoritative mistakes that SG has. So I guess in a way that is what I want to know from LT.
All of this talk about SGM and their wrongdoing towards us sort of reminds me of the Psalms when it talks about wicked people prospering. I had a hard time thinking of wicked people prospering that I knew of. However, it now seems more ironically clear, that the wicked people prospering a lot are those who claim to have God’s blessing when they do not (like when David was fleeing from people who were claiming divine right to Israel’s throne).
March 5th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
One Mom,
I’m very sorry. Really. I’m so sorry that I reacted so strongly to your posts. It was sinful anger. And I really do plan to take this all before the Lord and ask Him to reveal the areas of my heart that I honestly didn’t realize were still so vulnerable.
I didn’t read your post yet in response to my post (I’m at work and had to quell a tsunami of very unexpected emotion in the ladies’ room.) The reality is everything about your posts have reminded me of the woman who initiated my discipline process for my supposed anorexia (detailed in the Your Questions and Concerns thread – I think post 159). I will read your post(s) though and respond to you when I can do it w/o the strong reactions.
You are more than welcome to be here, and I’m so sorry that I made you feel otherwise.
March 5th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Thanks, friend.
March 5th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
One Mom:
I’m glad you are back.
A couple of thoughts:
1. I don’t perceive this to be an “attack One Mom” session, at least not on a personal level. I don’t know you, and neither does anyone else. Like I said, you seem like a kind, devout person.
2. When you post on a blog, especially one like this, you can expect scrutiny, even passionate disagreement. And when you come into a blog where folks have been deeply hurt and post in a way that seems to minimise those hurts, you can expect reaction.
3. I have stated in a prior post: You have no clue about leadership” in SGM. I stand by that. You made this comment:
“My point would be, do you therefore convict the person who did it? Or do you convict the SGM Leadership, whom you have not tried for the offense.”
Sorry, One, but leadership in SG circles follows the head. As the head goes, so goes the body. I hold the local pastors at my SG church responsible for their cruel, dictatorial methods of “discipling.” I also hold the higher-ups, the so-called “apostles” equally as guilty. They trained the men at the local churches. In one sense, they are MORE guilty than the local yokels. They claim “apostolic” status. Their decisions cannot be challenged.
You stated, “Explain what? If SGM Leadership in Gaithersburg were approached directly, they could address the wrongs. ” Baloney. Buffalo chips. They would not. Sorry, One. They would not. They commit the same wrongs themselves. Others have, BTW, attempted to graciously contact them. The silence has been deafening.
You stated, “If individuals within SGM develop clique-ishness, that cannot be construed as a policy held by SGM Leadership.” The pastor at my local SG church, when challenged about this issue stated, “It’s OK for folks to be exclusive. It’s their choice.” This comment has been echoed by others on this site. So, even if it ain’t taught, it’s caught. It’s being practiced, whether YOU realise it or not. Look. If it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and poops like a duck, it’s a duck. It’s happening. And it’s being blown off by leadership or, as was the case when I raised the issue, justified. And it’s happening in MORE than one SG church.
You stated, “I say again, in yet another way, I never said leadership should be held as speaking infallibly for God, etc. I believe all leadership should be evaluated and held to the standard of God’s word.” I am glad to hear that. But what exactly do you mean by “God’s Word?” That is a vague concept. God’s Word as interpreted by CJ? Or by John Wesley? Or by Larry T? One Mom, it’s why responsible, accountable believers who are in leadership are not afraid of congregational accountability. It’s why decisions are made by the entire body, not by a few men who meet behind closed doors in church office. I don;t know how much you know about church history, but it’s my forte. In the 16th Century, their emerged a movement so radical that even other Protestant Reformers considered it anathema: the Anabaptists. They practiced adult baptism, refrained from swearing oaths, advanced the radical idea that church and state were given differing roles and should be separate. They also refused to join the military, taking Jesus’ words in Matt. 5 literally. But one of their dearly held beliefs was the idea that the church, consisting of visible, local bodies of believers, was to be governed by the “Rat der Gemeinde.” The literal translation of that is, “the voice of the body.” Everyone, regardless of whether they were “lay” or ordained, had an equal voice and vote. IF SGM were to see the light and realise that “apostolic” leadership is NOT biblical, and open the church to input from the body, imagine what a change there would be! Until then, the “apostles” are accountable only to themselves, and local leaders follow their lead.
You stated, ” I still do not think I am deceived, and I think I was being misunderstood. I do not think I am be arrogant, or extending empty patronization. I was sincere.”
I believe you were sincere. I also think you are sincerely wrong. I do not detect arrogance in your posts. I do not think you are being arrogant. I do believe you are ignorant. Not in a bad sense, just that you clearly don’t truly know what is going on. I believe, as I stated before, you are a caring, devout person. But you gotta wake up and taste the Jolt Cola, cause you are deceived about SGM’s patterns/philosophy of leadership.
I want you to dialog here, One Mom. I also want you to realise people have been seriously hurt by an organisation, which, while not a cult, exhibits certain unhealthy “shepherding” characteristics that are sometimes “cult-like.”
Finally, you need to realise that CJ, Brent, or Josh are NOT apostles. They are not mini-Protestant popes. See my earlier posts.
March 5th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
BTW, thanks, SGM Casualty, for being vulnerable enough to graciously apologise in a public forum. I think we all want One Mom to continue dialoguing.
March 5th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Perhaps one thing to keep in mind, One Mom, when saying SGM leadership is not necessarily synonymous with local church leadership is this…in the church I was treated horribly by leadership, Brent was the senior pastor. So, maybe, just maybe, in some churches it is synonymous.
March 5th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Point taken.
March 5th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
IGO, you said, “Perhaps one thing to keep in mind, One Mom, when saying SGM leadership is not necessarily synonymous with local church leadership is this…in the church I was treated horribly by leadership, Brent was the senior pastor. So, maybe, just maybe, in some churches it is synonymous.”
Not only synonymous, but also part of a pattern.
I feel great sympathy for you! I listened to that man deliver a series of talks at a youth conference on the topic of “Biblical Manhood and Biblical Womanhood.” It was horrible. He stated that men should plan on getting high paying jobs so that they can live prosperously. Now, you must understand that I teach at a Christian school and also work a second job at a RTF for juvenile offenders. I do the best I can for my family, but I also am called to serve. Brent’s comments were ill-conceived at best. BTW, our local pastor echoed the same comments a few moths later with a statement that any young man who wanted to court one of his daughters better be making good money! Brent also stated that to be real man, you had to enjoy hunting. He delivered a long discourse on the glories of sitting in a blind in freezing weather.
March 5th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Hi SGM Cas,
WOW! I was too quick to judge your posts without knowing what was going on behind the scenes. I thank God that He is a righteous judge, and not like me. Your confession and repentance rebuked me in a very real positve way. Only God truly knows our hearts. I am too quick to judge and speak, and too slow to listen. May we all learn to be patient and kind and tender hearted toward one another, especially in the face of ridicule and criticism.
March 5th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Hi, all…
I’ve been out for much of today, so I’m just now catching up on everything. A new person’s comment sat in moderation all afternoon. Please note comment #205 – and join me in welcoming “Never Going Back.” :-)
Also, I am greatly encouraged by the dialogue between One Mom and SGM Casualty. One Mom, thanks for your reasonable tone. SGMC, thanks for your – dare I utter it? – humility. :-)
I do agree with what someone said (Newbie? Musicman? Dennis? I’m too lazy to scroll back up and find it) about the fact that many people here have certain tender spots that will cause them to have sometimes emotional reactions that at first appear to be all out of proportion to the provocation. I think that was a little of what happened in response to One Mom’s initial post. One Mom, I’m glad you came back and clarified your remarks. I hope you continue to share your thoughts with us.
I haven’t had time to go back and fully digest everything that everyone has written, but one comment that did catch my eye was the idea that we cannot hold the SGM leaders at the very top responsible for “isolated” incidents that have happened in various local congregations.
I think, given the very nature of SGM’s leadership structure, and the way that pastors are selected and vetted for training and then placed into their positions, that the people at the top are very definitely responsible for what goes on at the local level. One extremely pervasive trait among SGM churches IS their extreme reverence for and submission to the authorities at “headquarters.” How many times was CJ quoted in our Sunday morning sermons? I would guess that Seedge got cited more often than the Apostle Paul or even Jesus Himself! To me, this extreme veneration for the “Apostolic Team” leads me to believe that all it would take is one well-timed and stern directive from the Seedgester himself, and all pastors would fall in line.
In other words, if Seedge doesn’t want his underlings – the pastors at your local SGM congregations – to be overly involved in their people’s lives, or to be advising against professional psychological intervention, or to be disciplining their people for “infractions” like a perceived lack of humility, all Seedge would have to do is SAY SO. If Seedge said “Jump,” I have no doubt that there’d be a chorus of manly voices crying out, “How high?”
The fact that CJ has never publicly said boo about the shepherding or the discipline speaks quite plainly to the fact that he must like it the way that it is. The fact that he continues to go around promulgating his beliefs about submission to authority (in sermons like his “The Happiest Place On Earth”) – rather than teaching Sovereign Grace pastors to exhibit more grace – tells me that the current SGM practices are A-OK with him. Consequently, I think it’s only logical to say that he and the other “authorities” bear a great deal of responsibility for what occurs at your SGM church down the street.
March 5th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Thanks, Kris. I’ve been reading posts and comments with keen interest the last few days and finally read something that spurred a thought.
March 5th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
I just had to say that I couldn’t help but laugh at exintern’s post #196. Apparently the show was missing the dog and pony! lolol
Omgosh, this totally cracked me up when you said,
I’m literally laughing here lol. I can just picture the big flashing sign and the roses and the whole ridiculous show! You ex-SGM’ers know what I’m talking about!!!
hahahahahhahahahahhahahah
Thanks for the laughs, exintern! I’m still laughing here….
March 5th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
I agree with your insight and comments as well, Kris. The pastors of SGM churches are chosen, trained and, when set in churches, are hooked up with an “apostle” to bounce everything off of for SGM approval. Who are these apostles…CJ, Brent, etc. So what would make us think they actually handle things much differently than these men would. If they did, I doubt they would stay in their positions for very long.
Just my opinion.
On a side note, I have daughters and I couldn’t bear for them to grow up buying in to the “me big man, you little woman” mentality that Brent has. And if you could hear his children talk about their grandmother, you would be sick. There’s little regard for extended family. Maybe that’s where the Greffenstette family sought their example with the Larry Tomczak situation. Of all the things I’ve read on this site, the comments about Brent have given me the most cause to chuckle and to be honest, I needed that. Listening to his man week in and week out does something to you. He’s so self assured and confident in everything he says. You do question yourself on pretty much everything. Many men in SGM seem to love him. Hmmm…I wonder why.
March 5th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Oh. dear. Week in and week out? You have my utmost sympathy. Really.
Claireon said:
And the clapping. Don’t forget the neverending I-can-clap-just-as-long-as-every-one-else…oh-we-have-to-stand-up?…start-the-whistling
-and-really-LOUD-clapping-now-….is-it-almost-done?….nope–a-little-louder-…..and so on and so on, until it finally, mercifully dies down and we all can sit down.
Whew!
March 5th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
I guess I just want to ask One Mom, why are you here? What is your motivation? You defniitely hit a tender note w/me as well….and while I stand by my comments, I do apologize for the tone. Email has very defnite constraints….and not being able to hear the tone is one of them.
Truly, though, I would like to know why you are here in this forum? I wouldn’t join a blog for those happy with SGM and then proceed to defend my stance to those who remain in SGM, for example.
March 5th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
One Mom,
Okay, I’ve had a chance to get away from it all, clear my head, and read through your posts. There is one thing I would like to clarify. Your post did not hold so much sway over me that it alone convinced me that Sovereign Grace is a cult. Although I have (as others here can attest to) gone to great lengths to defend Sovereign Grace against allegations that it was a cult, it just happened to be this discussion that acted as the last straw, which pushed me over into that “camp,” so to speak.
At one point a list of characteristics of a cult was published here. And even though I identified all but two of the characteristics, I could not say SGM was a cult. I was too afraid of grieving God by judging the ministry too harshly. That’s why I was so hesitant to ever drop the c bomb and defended SGM from allegations of being led by false teachers.
But now I really do believe it is a cult for many reasons — the greatest of which is the highly distorted version of the gospel they preach. It enslaves members to live their lives by the edicts of leadership under the guise of providing “apostolic direction and care.” And it leaves out the bookends: God sent His Son b/c of His love for us and the story of the cross culminates with the resurrection of the risen Lord (followed quickly thereafter by the sending of His Spirit).
I believe your tendency to come across dismissively was unintentional, and it was really unfair of me to unleash on you all of the angst I’ve felt over SGMers who come traipsing in here starting their posts with red-hot words like “misconstrue” — or as another SGMer told me once, that I was “misrepresenting the truth.” Those are inflammatory words on a blog like this, and I do feel like they set me on edge as soon as I read your intro. Terms like these carry the implication that there is willful deceit at play … especially b/c no one has said that all of the abuses that happened to him/her were the result of “policies” that came from on high, nor did anyone say that b/c one person was disciplined for 5 years for a struggle with anorexia that all women who wore a size 6 were required to eventually become a size 10 … to the glory of God, of course.
What we’ve done here is respectfully heard out each other’s stories, and people have made their own conclusions. I haven’t experienced the same thing others have, so I will grieve for what they went through, but I don’t extrapolate conclusions about leadership b/c of individual incidences. In fact, in the past few months most of the disagreement here has happened among regular posters. We don’t always agree, and sometimes things get heated, and we even yell at each other with all caps and exclamation marks. But then we go back to loving each other and talking about the next topic. The good thing is there’s such diversity here, there’s freedom to lovingly but passionately disagree.
So no one is hearing a single story and then saying that this is SGM policy. They put their story out and others jump in if they have experienced something similar. If there seems to be a causal link between this situation and a policy that SGM has, those will be looked at and evaluated.
You asked me to parse out my experience from that of the Tomczaks, which I’ll try to do here. I guess I feel compassion for the Tomczaks b/c I know how cruel these discipline processes can be. You are totally at their mercy, and you are completely isolated. You are told who you can talk to about the process, and everyone else is off limits. If you violate that rule, you are out of compliance with the process. So even if people reach out to you in your devastation, you’re utterly alone b/c you can’t confide in anyone.
At one point in my husband’s discipline process (after my pastor and his wife who had met with us regularly for years stopped all meetings with us — and, in fact, never met with us again as couples until days before we moved away), I told my pastor’s wife that I felt like as long as you’re fighting the good fight of faith alongside leadership, you’re in their good graces. But if you get wounded in battle, you’re essentially on your own. And that’s how we felt — like we were bleeding out on the sidelines and no one cared. Of course, she rebuked me for self-pity.
Case in point. Shortly after finding out about my husband’s infidelity, losing our care group, etc., etc., I was driving on a highway and a semi started to pull into my lane. I was in such a state of devastation, I literally did nothing. I whispered quietly, “Go ahead, hit me. I don’t care.” When the semi was just inches from my door, the driver must have seen me and jerked back into his lane. (I did see if I could pull into the lane to the right of me, but there was a car there, as well as in front of me and behind me. So I was locked in position, but I didn’t even hit the horn.)
I was so numb and out of it, the reality of what happened didn’t hit me until that night. That’s when I realized, “Oh my gosh. I really want to die.” My husband was the one who kept talking about how he wished he could just die through his unbelievably harsh discipline process. But here I was in just as bad a state of ruins. And it really scared me that the incident didn’t even make it onto my radar until later that evening. B/c my pastor had been a counselor and I was afraid that I could really be a threat to myself (I was actually disappointed afterwards that I was still alive), I called him and told him what happened.
He said that I’d be fine … that God was just bringing things to the surface and dealing with my own heart. He was actually quite compassionate, but he never asked me if I was a threat to myself. And he really didn’t think I was suicidal, just overwhelmed. But then his wife — who I was very, very close to — later told me that he had told her what I did. She had one thing to say about the whole incident: “[My name], I think suicide is the most selfish thing a person could do.” And after a brief explanation of how and why she thought that, the issue was closed. Never once did they ever ask me afterwards how I was doing, if I had struggled with any of those thoughts, nothing.
Since that time I thought about how I would have treated a friend who went from being a high-spirited, life-of-the-party, friend to everyone to being so overwhelmed, she welcomed a semi into her lane with no effort to dissuade him. I would have been drawing her out; I would have been comforting her with God’s Word; I would have been asking her if she was currently struggling with any suicidal thoughts/ideations. And if she answered yes to that last question, I would have found out the best place to take her so she could rest and get the help she needed. I also would have followed up with her to see how she was doing in the morning and at other key junctures. But I didn’t get any of that., which sent the message that they thought I was just feigning the whole thing (even though my history with them never showed that tendency) or that it just didn’t matter b/c God was in control.
So here you have a couple who is beyond the breaking point. My husband talked openly about how our family would be better off if he was gone and how he couldn’t handle hearing any more about his sin, how displeased God was with him, and how he had disappointed his family, etc. You get the picture. And I’m trying to hold on for dear life and encourage him to hold on to God and press in to Him, while struggling with my own growing death wish. And what did leadership have to offer us? A continual exhortation to look at our sin, deal with our wicked hearts, and humble ourselves under God’s mighty hand.
This is why I say that unless you’ve been through one of these processes, I think it would be impossible to grasp the sense of despair and utter abandonment. And these are people who have immediately responded when first confronted. It’s not like these discipline processes are indicative of trying to get the person to see his/her sin. But the discipline process crosses over into cult-like behavior when men are assigned to continue to dole out specific consequences to humble the person and teach him/her abject obedience to authority. You’re given assignments by men, and obedience to these assignments are supposed to be what ushers in God’s grace that will help you mortify this area of sin. Hence, to resist one of these “means of grace” is to resist God Himself.
And, like I said before, if you dare to question how reasonable/fair any aspect of this process is, you’re again redirected to deal with your pride and arrogance. The last time I asked how long it would be before I was released of my eating disciplinary process (it had already been just under 5 years), I was told that I was no longer allowed to ask that question. They would tell me when they felt like I was free from this sin. AND if I asked again that my minimum weight requirement would go up from 120 to 125 … with the threat that it could go up even higher. Just like that. I never actually was released from this process; I just moved to another state.
Now I can’t even imagine what it would be like to allow a church to have such a choke hold on my heart that I would ever allow anything like that dark time of my life to ever happen again. I couldn’t imagine wanting to die now b/c I went and got help and worked through the issues that were raging in my heart in SGM’s wake. My heart is free (or at least I thought it was before today!), and I love my life. Being a working single mother with four kids and no family isn’t exactly what I dreamed of when I thought of my life after foster care. But, overall, I’m very, very happy and content with my life now.
And, One Mom, you’re right. I can’t say that Larry and Doris went through all of the same things we did. But I do understand the despair he alludes to in his writing as he was being told to just look at his sin, evaluate his sin, read about his sin, write about his sin, receive discipline for his sin, etc.
I don’t see these processes ordained in Scripture. Jesus could have had the opportunity to add a lot more to Matt 18, but He didn’t. He says that if your brother listens to you, great, you’ve won over your brother. I haven’t heard in one of these discipline processes where the person being disciplined just said, “Heck no, I’m not guilty of that.” These have all been people who wanted to walk with God in a way that was pleasing to Him. Why add this cruel process in as an addendum to the gospel that just crushes people? The result is not humility; it’s a broken spirit.
So I offer this explanation by way of helping you to understand why I guess your analysis of the Tomczak discipline process sort of set off a number of geysers in my heart. I’m not justifying my sin. I should have recognized that I was getting angry and should have take a step back from the computer. And I didn’t. And I’m very sorry for how that must have hurt you and made you feel attacked. But I hope you can understand a little better where I’m coming from.
Of course, even as I write this, CJ’s blog on how repentance of sin should be carried out. According to the Pope, it should be brief and specific. If there are too many words, he says, he gets suspicious. But I gave you that apology. With this post, my earnest attempt was to try to explain why I guess discipline processes are sorta my Ground Zero.
As much as I disagreed with you on so many points, I do admire you for how you were able to keep your head about you in the heat of battle. You maintained a level of graciousness and demonstrated a sincere attempt to try to understand where we are all coming from. That’s no easy task when you’ve had a largely positive, long-standing history with Sovereign Grace Ministries. But I’m grateful you didn’t just write me off as a bitter infidel; I think you’re the first one here who really would have had the right to do that. But calling me friend; that was over the top … even if it did make me feel even WORSE for how I had treated you. heh
March 6th, 2008 at 1:06 am
Welcome, NeverGoingBack,
Thanks for joining us! Sure hope the blog has been as helpful to you as it has been for me, in making our family decision of never going back. I hope you will share your experiences with us at some point, as each person sharing their heart on this blog brings better clarification and understanding to the process of either leaving or staying at SGM. For me, this blog has been somewhat of a healing process as I look back on our time there with such sadness. I look forward to hearing more from you. Once again, welcome!
March 6th, 2008 at 1:09 am
SGM Cas,
Thanks. I never meant to cause you pain, and of course didn’t mean to make it worse by calling you friend.
So many things experienced by others have been so different from my own personal experiences. I have not had exact similar situations, but one somewhat parallel, that were treated so differently from those of folks here. That’s why I’ve attempted to separate individual experiences from larger SGM policy… Obviously that doesn’t hold water in light of the experiences that have been since brought up to help me get clarity.
Lots of things I cannot answer or address, quite honestly, if I am to maintain my annonimity. Wish I could, but that answer will have to do in response to some of the additional questions that have been asked of me.
SMG Cas, I’ll be contacting you off-blog to discuss some stuff privately, okay?
And I meant it when I called you friend.
–One Mom
March 6th, 2008 at 5:00 am
Kris, you said, “I haven’t had time to go back and fully digest everything that everyone has written, but one comment that did catch my eye was the idea that we cannot hold the SGM leaders at the very top responsible for “isolated” incidents that have happened in various local congregations.” And then, you said, “I think, given the very nature of SGM’s leadership structure, and the way that pastors are selected and vetted for training and then placed into their positions, that the people at the top are very definitely responsible for what goes on at the local level. One extremely pervasive trait among SGM churches IS their extreme reverence for and submission to the authorities at “headquarters.” How many times was CJ quoted in our Sunday morning sermons? I would guess that Seedge got cited more often than the Apostle Paul or even Jesus Himself! To me, this extreme veneration for the “Apostolic Team” leads me to believe that all it would take is one well-timed and stern directive from the Seedgester himself, and all pastors would fall in line.”
Can I give you an amen?!?
Again, can I say what I have been saying ALL along in this blog? The issue is authority and its abuse/misuses. As long as we believe that these men are or could be apostles, then we have opened the door to this kind of “shepherding.”
March 6th, 2008 at 7:11 am
One Mom:
Thanks for touching base with SGM Casualty. Your forgiveness, graciously extended, is Christ-like and gentle.
You said, “That’s why I’ve attempted to separate individual experiences from larger SGM policy… Obviously that doesn’t hold water in light of the experiences that have been since brought up to help me get clarity.”
Fair enough. I hope that you are truly getting a clearer picture. To be balanced, there are many things I still appreciate about SGM: its doctrinal integrity, its clear stands on certain issues, and its passionate but controlled worship experiences.
Despite this, however, the fundamental core of the SGM apple is rotten, and that core is its understanding of leadership and how it should be exercised.
Thanks for dialoguing…
TK