Every day, I get a lot of interesting email. Some people write to ask questions. Some people write to tell me how horribly sinful the site is. Some folks – for whatever reason – want advice. But mostly, people write to tell me their stories.
I read every one of these emails, and even when someone sees fit to give me a good tongue-lashing (or would that be “keyboard-lashing”? :-) ), I really do enjoy hearing from people. I’m a fairly speedy typist and love to write, so if you email me, you’ll probably get at least one reply. And if your original email strikes my fancy for whatever reason, you might even find that I have quite a lot to say in response.
So anyway, over the past few months, I’ve had many conversations with folks about their Sovereign Grace experiences. I’ve never done an official tally, but I know I’ve heard far more SGM stories via email than have been shared on the site itself.
One striking aspect of so many of the stories people have told me is the almost palpable fear that lurks behind their words. Often, their entire reason for sending email rather than posting their stories to the blog is because they are afraid that if they share publicly, even if they do so anonymously, they might be recognized. Apparently, if their fellow SGM-ers were to find out that they are dissatisfied with aspects of their Sovereign Grace experience, and are sharing about these on a website, terrible things could befall them.
I have to say, for a long time, I never gave these writers’ fear much thought. I understand what it’s like to worry about disappointing people. I have my own reasons for not blogging under my full identity. Because we did not have a bad experience at our Sovereign Grace church but were instead treated very kindly by our SGM pastors, we’ve always believed that they do not deserve to have this site reflect personally on them or their particular church, especially because we’d still like to believe that their congregation is far more grace-based than some and does not manifest the problems that others have described here. Why should they have to suffer because we were bothered by nagging undercurrents, had questions, and then blogged about them?
So I can understand the desire for secrecy.
But the other day, after receiving email from four different individuals who all, in one way or another, expressed their desire to maintain even more anonymity than the website affords, I got to thinking about just how strange it is that a Christian organization could engender so much fear in its people. What, after all, could befall your average Sovereign Grace person if it were discovered that he or she had expressed dissatisfaction online?
Certainly I could not imagine anything truly sinister. I couldn’t picture CJ Mahaney or any other pastor sending out his goons to rough up the individual who had, for instance, shared that she’d been castigated and reprimanded by church leadership for daring to pray for a married woman when she herself is still single. I couldn’t see an angry mob of men with shaved heads and oversized shirts all wielding baseball bats and coming after the gentleman who told of being disciplined for not tithing. I certainly couldn’t envision what was so scandalous about the story of the family who had decided to leave because they’d been rebuked for asking hard questions about their church’s ambitious building program.
Why were they so desperate to keep the stories of their dissatisfaction anonymous?
What power does Sovereign Grace Ministries have over all these folks, especially now, as many of them have already left?
I really don’t know.
I am aware, of course, that many SGM families worry about losing their social lives, which, after some years, tend to revolve around the church and its activities. Some writers have told of extended family whose livelihoods depend upon maintaining good relations with SGM. I guess many people feel like they just have too much to lose, and that it’s too risky for them to come out and even semi-publicly express any dissatisfaction.
Like I said, I can understand this, to a point.
But isn’t it a little odd that a Christian organization could exert such control over its people?
The other day, my sister and I were talking about how many emails I receive from frightened people. That’s when it suddenly hit me that this sort of fear is a very obvious sign that SGM is NOT a normal Christian organization. My sister and I reminisced about how many people we knew during our growing-up years who sort of “made the rounds” of the different churches in our small town. They’d be loyal and involved members of our church, and then something would happen and they’d show up at the church down the street…soon to be loyal and involved there. And then something again would happen, and they’d come back to our church, where it didn’t take a terribly long time for them to be back to their same level of involvement.
Although of course these folks received their share of patronizing smiles, and although some people jokingly referred to them as “church tramps,” their personal embarrassment was really the ONLY consequence of their leaving. Nobody ever spoke ill of them or tried to frame stories about their departure. To the best of my knowledge, they retained their standing in the community and did not see any disruptions in their significant relationships. It was relatively easy for them to return, and they did not have to work to “re-earn” their “credibility” so that they could once again be considered “qualified” for service.
Doubtless, lack of commitment is not a desirable trait in a church member. I’m not in any way saying that it’s good for a church to encourage its people to be flaky. But the level of fear that comes through in the emails I receive is all out of proportion to what’s actually at stake, if Sovereign Grace Ministries is truly a family of “regular” churches. The body of Christ – the “church universal” – is a wonderfully varied and diverse group these days. No single Bible-believing, Bible-teaching denomination or group has a corner on the market of “correct” doctrine or proper methods of fostering fellowship. If you are having serious doubts about your church, or if you have been hurt or harmed by church discipline run amuck, you can find another place to worship and to serve.
If you find yourself irrationally fearing otherwise – if you find yourself laboring under the notion that you cannot leave your current church without horrible harm befalling you and your family - that might be the most obvious sign that it’s time to get out of Dodge.
March 6th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Prodigal Daughter,
I thought this line was especially good:
Actually, I’d probably even take it a step further. Once an individual parts ways with their SGM group, it’s like they cease to exist. Legitimate, fully recognizable, fully valuable personhood can only be found if you remain in your Sovereign Grace church. If you decide to leave – even if it’s on perfectly amiable terms – you will not be “one of them” anymore. You won’t get invited to socials. You’ll not receive the emails or the phone calls. They’ll be done with you.
Even on a subconcious level, such behaviors toward those who leave simply have to impact the remaining members. I’d be willing to bet that such “shunning” (for lack of a better word) probably serves to reinforce the other members’ commitment to SGM. Who’d want to have to go through such a process?
March 6th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Philip,
I’m not a big fan of ministries that act like cults. I’m also not a big fan of the healing process that has resulted from breaking free of a cult.
But I do agree with you about anyone who rejects criticism is a fool. I’ve had recent opportunities to eschew foolishness myself through that “means of grace.”
Hippie,
Wish I could write more right now. But until I can, big, big hugs! You sound absolutely precious. I’m just so, so sorry that you are having to go through this. The thought of a document w/ names of people who have left is so … well, cult-like. But calling special attention to your family just baffles me.
Voice,
Thank you so much for your encouraging words. I’m so glad SOMETHING good could come out of my cosmic meltdown! I do wish the healing process were a little prettier and more refined … oh, and more predictable!
*sheepish grin*
March 6th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Tony:
:-)
You are a good sport, bro.
St. Anthony: the founder of monasticism, Egyptian, a “Desert Father.” Practiced exteme asceticism. Also fought heresies in early church. :-)
March 6th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
# 400
thank you dear for your welcome.
knowing we both had negitive experiences with CLC helped me to not believe my pastor when he tried to isolate my issues.
March 6th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
P-Diddy.
You said,
Wow. Just wow. Other pastors have certainly adopted this mentality, but how chilling that one would actually contradict Scripture that audaciously.
So glad you and the Hipster are together here!! Group hug. ;)
March 6th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
WWH:
I, too, am sorry you’re going through this. I can’t imagine growing up in this!
My two cents: I think the verse about “turning someone over to Satan” if they disobey is where they get their justification for shunning–wouldn’t you agree? I think it’s awful; again, I’m sorry that you’re going through this. I hope you find lots of help and comfort here!
March 6th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
…and yes, SGM Cas, “hugs all around..” … and Kris, break out the Texas Sheet Cake, STAT!
March 6th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Mmm, I haven’t had Texas Sheet Cake since my days of cooking for Alpha! Lolz.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
PD,
What’s Alpha? (I’m an outsider, as you can tell!!)
March 6th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Lynn,
i think so too. but my pastor said that he felt this was a “phase” of sorts and that i would always come back. so not sure how they think it would work if they continue to push me away.
again, i will state, that i was living in sin when i left, i was unrepentant. i dont want to act as if i was perfectly holy and pious and they kicked me out anyways. my grief was in the way it was handled, and how i am now treated.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
PD,
What’s Alpha? (I’m an outsider, as you can tell!!)
Hey, we’ll just have to have a yearly gathering — I’ll bring the cake!
: )
March 6th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
PD,
What’s Alpha? I’m an outsider, obviously!
Hey Kris, what say we have a yearly gathering?? I’ll bring the cake!!
March 6th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Gee–sorry all — I have no idea how my postings got so messed up like that!
March 6th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
WWH,
Got ya.
I was never in SG, but I rebelled from strict parents as a late teen. It IS all in the way it’s handled.
And while I would never want to excuse anyone’s sin, I can understand that if you’re being held down at a time in your life where you need to develop your own beliefs, etc., then the temptation to “rebel” is going to be there.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Lynn-
Alpha is the one non-SGM activity they promote. Many churches use the Alpha program. It is basically a time to invite non-believers or seekers or wayward churchfolk to a get together for food and questions/study. If you google it, you will probably find a lot of info.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Lynn,
Alpha is the program they have at CLC (probably other SGM churches?) for evangelistic purposes. It’s like a weekly free dinner plus sermon for anyone in the community and the church members volunteer to provide the meals. ^.^
And Hippie,
I experienced this too. One year I received a birthday card saying essentially that when my life fell apart and I was willing to repent and submit to leadership, I would be welcomed back and my parents would help me to put things back together again. Three years later I’m halfway across the country with my own job, car, apartment, and fiancee!
March 6th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Musicman-
You said-
You know-Spurgeon talks about an anonymous critic who he really came to appreciate in his early years of ministry. He talks about how this anonymous critic’s notes would annoy him at first, but after the initial offense, he began to look forward to his honest and sometimes humorous critiques of his preaching. He credits this unknown person as helping him become a better minister of the gospel. Pretty sure he relates this story in his book, Lectures to My Students.
If Spurgeon can take a little anonymous criticism, then why can’t SGM take a “live and let live” attitude towards some of it’s critics (including this website) ?
I often wonder why they don’t want critics. If they are so convinced of their positions and methodologies, why not welcome critics. Then, you have a platform to defend it with passion and scripture. Most SGmers (most, not all…. :-) ) come with guns ablazin’ and want to stop any criticism. That is not healthy. I think a few (Tony, Phillip, Single) come on here and make coherent arguements and though they likely won’t win anyone back into the fold, at least they are open to debate and dialogue. My hat’s off to you folks…hope what you have is contagious within SGM! :-) I still have lots of folks I love in the movement.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
High Church and PD,
Oh yes — I know it. Our church has it too, but I thought that it was “different” in SG, like everything else…lol.
Hippie, re 416:
GOOD FOR YOU!
March 6th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Hippy,
Thanks for the clarification. That took integrity. I still (obviously) take issue with the way their discipline processes lacked grace (in my experience). I believe that in many ways they place stumbling blocks in people’s way — with all of their rigid rules that make the Christian walk such a drudgery — and then stand aloof in shock and horror when one of their members casts off the good with the legalistic and defiled.
We will all have to give an account for the many ways we’ve fallen short. But Jesus said, “Woe to the stumbling blocks.”
March 6th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
SGM Cas,
You did a MUCH better job articulating what I meant in #414!!
March 6th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
P-diddy,
(i think im gonna call you that, since i know you do not appreciate rap)
its so hard to see those i love and care for from the church wishing me to not fare well. in saying that, i mean that ive recieved many a talk about how i cant do much in my own strength and that what i am doing and how i am living (outside of covenant life) will end in ruin. i am not where i need to be, no, but im getting there. God and i talk and we are communicating. i also have a new job, a good car, a place to live. ive given up many of my rebelious, ‘wayward’ ways. even with this, many only see the ex-covlifer status, and not much else.
someone once told me to keep one eye on your sin, and the other on the cross. i try to do that. i dont succeed every time, but i get up and try, with gods help.
coming back under gods ‘full submission’ does not equal going back to covlife.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
WWH:
“coming back under gods ‘full submission’ does not equal going back to covlife.”
And don’t you ever forget that!
But doesn’t keeping one eye on the cross and one on your sin make you cross-eyed?!?!
I’d rather keep both eyes on Jesus! There’s even a nice little song about that — “Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus.”
It wouldn’t sound as good as “Turn Your Eyeball Upon Jesus, Who is Hanging on the Cross for Your Sin, Which You Should Be Keeping Your Other Eye On. ”
Doesn’t have the same ring, does it?
March 6th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
lynn,
lol! i love it! that is a good song, and i remember singing along with the newsboys to it.
i think, and this is just me, but i i think what my dad meant when he said that is that he never wanted to forget where he came from, and what jesus had saved him from, lest he return to it. not sure if that was perfectly his interpretation, or if thats what i twisted it to be, but i hope i didnt misconstrue it too terribly.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Lynn,
You so brilliantly said,
Major LOL!!! That was choice!
Yes, I’m all for keeping BOTH eyes on Jesus. The Holy Spirit is more than capable of pointing out my sin when My eyes are fixed on my loving Savior.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
SGM Cas –
“The Holy Spirit is more than capable of pointing out my sin when My eyes are fixed on my loving Savior. ”
If I had a buck for every time I said that to my SG friend, I could quit my crummy job…lol!
WWH:
I do know what you meant; I was just playin’.
March 6th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
“I’d rather keep both eyes on Jesus!”
LOL, Lynn! I was going to say that, too!
LOLOLOLOL!
March 6th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
High Church-
I read this quote recently
“All truth passes through three stages
*First it is ridiculed
*Then it is violently opposed
*Finally, it is accepted as self evident ” Arthur Schopenhouer (1788-1860)
I think we’re somewhere between stage one and two with most folks from SGM.
March 6th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
PD,
Thanks for the welcome. I’ve made a bit of commotion here lately, so I’ll just be reading for awhile, considering…
One Mom
March 6th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Musicman-
Although they would probably view US in between stages one and two! :-)
March 6th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
hmm-good point- I guess that’s where listening to each other with love and respect should really come into play.
March 6th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
One Mom,
Please hear me on this … PLEASE don’t hesitate to jump in on my account or out of fear that you’ll just stir up another hornet’s nest. Really. This hornet’s stinger fell off yesterday, and now I’m really just buzzing along happily again. So I can offer you safe passage. heh
Seriously, we really do want to encourage dialog with Sovereign Grace members, especially ones who can demonstrate the restraint you did under attack (albeit unintentional).
Again, thank you for your graciousness and understanding both on- and offline.
~Cas
March 6th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Thanks, Cas.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
I asked a question a number of posts back, that was either missed or ignored. It was a sincere question, so in case it was just missed, I’ll ask again: One Mom, why are you here on this blog (and actually, this question is also for Tony, Lawrence and any others who are still in SGM and happy there)? What is your motivation? I am asking because, for example, I have no desire to go on any blog that is pro SGM and argue the points with them and/or try to convince them that they are wrong, or defend my position that SGM is a cult, or at least very cult-like. Any SGM’ers that would care to answer, I would really like to know. Thanks.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Hi, exinternsmom…
You know, I saw your question when it first appeared, and I wondered if anyone would respond.
I should say, first, that I really appreciate the “SGM-happy” folks who do come to the site and dialogue with us – especially those who are able to maintain a gracious and kind tone. I’ve learned a lot from many of these individuals, and they give me real hope for SGM as a ministry.
However, I’ve been curious in the same way that you have. I mean, we’ve seen it all here. There seem to be trends, actually. First we had the flame-throwing angry folks, who slammed us as gossips and sometimes grew bizarrely irrational in their zeal to defend SGM.
Then there was the, “Let’s overwhelm the site with copy-’n'-pastes of Scripture” crowd. They showed up a month or two ago and, I think, were reasoning something like this: “What could those malcontents say if we just post Bible verses? How could they refute God’s Word? Certainly we’ll convict them of their sinfulness and soon we’ll shut the site down!”
I had visions of these folks exchanging emails and high-fiving each other at care group meetings. But I also wondered if they’d really thought through how silly it looked. I mean, most of us here are former SGM folks. Do they really think we are not aware of the passages in the Bible that talk of gossip? Do they think we’ve all just thrown out our faith and our desires for Godliness, just because we’ve left Sovereign Grace? Do they assume that we no longer know the Proverbs about gossip, just because we’re no longer submitted to Seedge?
After the cut-’n'-paste crowd took their toys and went home, we then had the “Let’s express our grief, acknowledge the truth of their statements, but then slam them anyway” group. I didn’t exactly picture the care group party with these folks, but it did get awfully tiresome to read the same things over and over again.
I’m wondering what the next tactic will be. But in the meantime, I share your puzzlement, exinternsmom. As I said once before, I would NEVER go over to the “SGM-happy” blogs and start posting comments about fools who can’t discern spiritual abuse. And if I did do such a thing, I wouldn’t feel all dismayed and shocked if my comments weren’t well-received. Also…would I think that there was hope to persuade them to change?
So I dunno. I wonder if the “SGM happy” folks themselves even know what draws them to comment here. But I’d love to find out!
March 6th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Kris, thanks, I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one curious about the motivation. I am not asking to start any more drama or arguments, but am truly puzzled….and admittedly, just a little suspicious. The suspicious part no doubt comes from the in- person contacts that have only had intentions of convincing us of our sin (the sin of leaving such an apostolically led, elite church), and not with any concern, desire to stay in fellowship, etc. And to be totally honest, I would have to say that I have sensed a sort of ‘recovery’ kind of atmosphere about ths blog and the SGM’ers, no matter how kindly intentioned or graciously worded, add salt to the wounds for me. We’ve already heard—-for years in fact—-the dialog, the arguments for SGM, etc. In fact, that was all we heard….the hook, the line, the sinker. I left SGM so that I did not have to hear the ‘party line’ any more! I do want to believe the best of folks, to take them at face value, but I would not participate in a blog for Happy SGM’ers because I would antipcate that I would not be welcome, that I would stir up all kinds of anger. Do I desire for them (Happy SGM’ers) to see past the brain washing and break free from SGM? Of course. But a blog of strangers is unlikely to succeed in that. I save my dialoguing (w/the opposing side) energy for those whom I know and love, who are still in SGM and who have braved disapproval and discipline to keep in touch with me. Soooo…yeah, I am really curious as to why Happy SGM’ers would join us…….
As someone else on this blog has said (SGM CAS, maybe?), that’s my .02 from the free seats :-)
March 6th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
One more thought, Kris…you wrote:
“I’ve learned a lot from many of these individuals, and they give me real hope for SGM as a ministry.”
I guess this is where we differ in perspective. I don’t see SGM as a ministry….I see it as a cult, or at least a very sick, cult-like, dysfunctional group of folks (not every individual, of course, but as a whole).
My husband and I are reading a fantastic book called “The Live You’ve Always Wanted” by John Ortberg. He talks about the difference between real transformation and pseudo-transformation….the difference between true inner spirituality and the appearance of spirituality as evidenced by the outer following of the rules, even if the heart is full of pride, arrogance, lust, etc. He further talks about how the appearance of spirituality is built by boundary or identity markers, that are used to define ‘insiders’ and point out the ‘outsiders’ and how this can become elitism. To my husband and I, this was such an insightful articulation of what we saw in our local SGM….as long as folks are kowtowing to Seedge and those leaders under him, as long as they are buying the party line and showing that they buy it by their allegience to any and all things SGM, as long as their dress is husband-scrutinized and approved, as long as the kids ask how high when the parents say jump, as long as they focus on sin—theirs and everyone else’s-, as long as they do not associate or participate in any parachurch functions….the list goes on and on….then they are easily identifiable as an ‘insider’. Anyone who is not identifiable by these outward markers are ‘outsiders’ who must be ostracized and cast out or ‘lovingly pursued’ depending, I suppose on someone’s assessment of the liklihood of being able to bring that person back into the ‘fold’. Little concern is actually given, in my experience, to what may be going on in the heart, to what fruit (as listed in the Bible!) is actually shown. In our local SGM church, for example, one young lady was held up as a model ‘insider’ (my word, not theirs, but defnitely implied) because she was bold in confronting others about their sin. Never mind that she came across as cruel and heartless, bringing people to the point where they shuddered if she was approaching them. Anyway, I digress……..my point is that what I see in SGM…and again, not every individual, but the organization as a whole….is the attention to the appearance of spirituality and the demand that one conform to the specifics of that appearance as defined by SGM, if they want to be found worthy of being in this very ‘special, elite’ group. That….IMO…is not a characteristic of a ministry, but of a cult.
Once again, fwiw, from the free seats…………..
March 6th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
sorry, typo in my last post…should be The Life, not the Live :-)
March 7th, 2008 at 6:17 am
Exinternsmom,
Re: 436
“He talks about the difference between real transformation and pseudo-transformation….the difference between true inner spirituality and the appearance of spirituality as evidenced by the outer following of the rules, even if the heart is full of pride, arrogance, lust, etc.”
Excellent points. Speaking as someone who grew up in the Christian faith, I can say it’s not always easy to differentiate — I know the lingo, I know the rules, I know how I’m supposed to act.
March 7th, 2008 at 7:42 am
ExIMom-
I too wondered if anyone from SGM would answer your question. I myself have a few hypothesis:
#1- They may actually sense some weirdness and even though they are not ready to leave, they know that they can find some validation here for the weirdness they are sensing.
#2- They may feel that they are doing the “good work” of trying to win folks back into the fold.
#3- The are people who are generally interested in hearty, spirited diaglogue and debate.
#4- They may want to paint a picture to us that not all SGMers are POD people.
My hope is that they come for reasons 1, 3, 4. And, again, these are merely guesses on my part. I would like to hear from anyone out there. I have enjoyed dialogue with many of the these folks despite our differences. Maybe we can agree that we are all learning from eachother. But, anyone here for #2— I don’t think it will work! :-) (Humor here on a early friday morning!!!)
March 7th, 2008 at 8:06 am
EI’s mom,
You wrote,
Your explanation of how you saw this dynamic play out in your Sovereign Grace church hit the nail spot on (imho). These spiritual demarcations mark who’s in and who’s out, who’s among the most committed and who’s more of a casual observer, who’s intensely spiritual and who’s carnal.
Although only God can judge the level of sincerity of each individual person competing in the SGM Olympics (to see who can attain the highest degree of submission to all things SGM), I agree with you that these characteristics define a cult and should be eschewed. They are toxic and no one wins.
I mean, if you compete well in these Olympics and can actually keep pace with the demands of being among the most spiritually elite, the potential for becoming spiritually proud and a 21st century Pharisee is a very real one. And if you stumble and fall during these rigorous and highly competitive games, you can expect to be cast off as one who just couldn’t make the cut and relegated to the “not qualified to be a true co-laborer” pile. Or worse: You can have all of SGM’s most virulent firepower wagered against you in a nearly graceless discipline process that will strip you of your dignity and leave you in shattered ruins (whether you satisfy all of their “requirements” or not).
Having experienced more relaxed expressions of Christianity since leaving Sovereign Grace — where the people I respect as godly and mature would never consider actually drawing attention to their maturity or setting themselves up as examples of godliness to be emulated (which I have found more indicative of authentic humility) — has convinced me that it is possible to walk wholeheartedly before God with those whose hearts also burn with a passion to know Him and be more like Him outside of Sovereign Grace.
As starkly self-evident as that may sound, I genuinely wondered if it was really possible. After hearing for years how Sovereign Grace got it “right” when it came to doctrine and living out the tenets of the Christian faith with gusto, I really did wonder if it would be possible to find people outside of the ministry who would be so “sold out.” One pastor’s wife even told me, after we finally decided we had lost enough in the ministry and were getting out, “[My name], you’ll never be satisfied anywhere else. You were cut out for this; it’s in your DNA.”
You have to understand that this woman was actually being very sweet and sincere in this moment, and I’m not scoffing at what she said. What she was trying to say was that I would never find another church where there would be people who would be so committed to God first and biblical fellowship second, they would be willing to challenge me to grow in godliness. Her words ignited a very real fear and sort of haunted me (although I really don’t believe that was her intention).
With all of the defining “breaking points” I experienced in Sovereign Grace, there were so many times where biblical fellowship was walked out in a way that was tremendously challenging and grace filled. And I really wondered if I would experience that anywhere else … or if I would be left out in the cold to stumble through my Christian walk, trying to figure things out on my own, by myself, as best as I could.
The reality is I think there’s a dynamic that I like to call the “deep calls unto deep” principle. It’s not an original thought. I read/heard it somewhere in my early Christian days (based loosely on Ps 42:7) and have seen it at work in my life. I believe the “depth” of our heart’s desire to run hard after God somehow taps into the “depth” of His heart’s desire for us to draw near … and somehow spills over the “depth” of others’ hearts with the same longing/drive (whatever you want to call it). I’m not trying to build a doctrinal temple over one loosely applied scripture by any means. All I’m saying is somehow everywhere I go, I find myself hooking up and entering the greatest depth of fellowship with those who also yearn to know Him more and, thus, call to the depth of my heart’s desire.
And guess what? It’s the oddest thing, really. Entirely outside of Sovereign Grace’s unending supply of checklists and seminars that add new requirements to godly living and new addenda to the Gospel with every new book they read, I have found that the more I know Him, the more I want to be like Him. And so do my friends! And because we want to know Him and be like Him at any cost, we’re willing to take risks in the friendship and speak the truth in love to each other and in a grace-filled way challenge behaviors that don’t seem to line up with what we know our friend wants to do b/c of his/her love for God. So we’ll bring Scripture to bear in a difficult situation and let the Holy Spirit do His work from there, even if our friend may initially not want to hear what we have to say.
It’s amazing. There’s no wrangling or arm twisting or pulling out the scariest scriptures (out of context no less) to try to level our friends with the initial observation. Nor do we hold immediate agreement with our observation as a spoken or unspoken prerequisite for continuing this type of iron-sharpening-iron friendship. I don’t fear that these friends will abandon the friendship upon the first sign of resistance or wavering, as I did in Sovereign Grace. I just know that these friends will be there beside me, praying for me, and available to offer their fallible perspective if it will help me grow in the way they know I want to.
And this is possible to have without all of the baggage that cults add in to the mix. To me, it’s amazing grace and authentic biblical fellowship.
March 7th, 2008 at 8:30 am
One Mom:
Please stay and contribute.
March 7th, 2008 at 8:49 am
I’ve been thinking about the question from last night: What motivates pro-SGM people to post here?
HighChurch, I think your list of possibilities is excellent. I would agree that those things might come into play. I also think we could add a couple to the list. How about,
Can anyone think of others?
March 7th, 2008 at 9:01 am
I do find it interesting how the defenders of SGM come here, and in my opinion the defenders are the ones to be the most concerned about.
If something happened and SGM wasn’t the favor of the month anymore, for the most part, SGMer’s wouldn’t know what hit them. They’d be like, huh? People can be about as engaged with SGM’s false gospel message as they can be while sitting and watching an infomerical. Something other than the Holy Spirit has to be at work in order for people to buy into the message. What you end up getting when you “phone in” is some man-made product that doesn’t deliver as advertised. At some point in time you need to realize that you’re just falling prey to someone else’s scheme.
But for the defenders, it’s a different matter. Obviously they have something to lose, and I fear what they will lose is their self-confidence. If you align SGM with the bible, and believe what they teach is the truth, then you’re in for a big let down. The further convinced you are of SGM being authentic, the longer it will take for you to see the reality.
March 7th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Kris,
One other possibility, which might overlap with what Claireon just said, is that some people NEED the SMG Way to be true.
In thinking of my former friend who is at SG, I don’t know if she could live without the man-made structure and support. It’s her whole world. It’s how she relates to God, to others. It’s permeated every part of her life. For someone like her, I think it would be devastating to even think of living outside of that environment.
March 7th, 2008 at 9:11 am
—oh, so to complete that thought — some of the defenders who come here might be fear-driven: they are frightened that we might actually right.
March 7th, 2008 at 9:11 am
…er, make that:
“that we might actually BE right.”
March 7th, 2008 at 9:15 am
I’ve got one Kris….
#7 – They’re on the Squad of Loving And Pursuing (SLAP) and they think this is a good place to hone their skills.
March 7th, 2008 at 9:18 am
Claireon — Good one!
March 7th, 2008 at 9:21 am
SGMcas, you wrote:
“With all of the defining “breaking points” I experienced in Sovereign Grace, there were so many times where biblical fellowship was walked out in a way that was tremendously challenging and grace filled”
I am sad to say that I never found it challenging at SGM, as far as spiritual transformation, but only challenging to keep up w/all the rules. In the book I mentioned in my last post, he talks about how this quest for identity/boundary marker spirituality ends up being both intimidating and unchallenging at the same time. Boy, did that hit the nail on the head for me, as far as what I felt in SGM! Intimidating because one always feared being found lacking in their ability to keep up w/the rules, unchallenging because, as we discussed in other posts, being spoon fed and reigned in by arbitrary rules doesn’t help us to grow spiritually. Instead, the result is a pseudo-transformation, rather than a true inner transformation…outer appearance vs the inner heart.
You also wrote: “I have found that the more I know Him, the more I want to be like Him.” Exactly. When we are truly transformed in our hearts, rather than striving for appearance management, our outer behavior will also be changed. Trying to change the behavior with rules, before being concerned about the inner transformation, is like putting the cart before the horse. And we can never keep up with it, because there is no opportunity for the Holy Spirit to work; instead we keep striving by our own ‘will power’, thinking that if we can just keep our appearance a little more shiny, we will be found acceptable. But to who? God? or to SGM? :-/ There is an ‘old’ sayings that I keep going back to in my life: if Christians focused more on the ‘do’ in the Bible, they wouldn’t have so much time to worry about the ‘don’t’ . In other words, if we truly seek to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, with all our souls, with all our minds, then we will not have much time/energy/thought/etc. to have to worry about what we are not supposed to do. And that, to my understanding, is grace, victory and joy. Aware that I am a sinner? You bet! But I also know that I am a new creation in Christ, forgiven, saved, and able, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, to live a life that can focus on knowing Jesus more, which in turn will help me to be more like Him, and to accomplish whatever He calls me to do. I can’t help but think it’s no wonder that SGM can’t be concerned with missions, evangelism, other Christians (ie: those outside SGM) when they spend all their time focused on what worms they are. How could I believe that God could use me for anything if I can’t even grasp the concept of true forgiveness and salvation, that the cross actually accomplished a “Not Guilty” verdict for me?
And that makes me think of another ‘old’ saying: we shouldn’t give the devil more ‘air time’ than we give Jesus. In other words, more focus on satan than on Jesus will never bring us to true transformation….and when we focus on sin, as SGM insists on doing, that’s exactly what is taking place, IMO.
HiC and Kris, I think those are all possible reasons for SGM’ers to be here….those that I know personally, sadly would mostly fall into the #6 category. They care far more about protecting SGM from any criticism, than they do about us.
March 7th, 2008 at 9:22 am
I wonder if at least some of them sincerely believe that they’re “bringing the gospel” to this blog.
I, too, hope that SGMers feel free to answer this question. But, at the same time, I hope that they don’t feel like we’re intrinsically requiring an explanation of why they’re here. I personally don’t have a problem with them coming here and commenting.
But I agree with w/ EI’s mom in her analysis of the blog being like a recovery group of sorts. (Boy, I can just imagine SGM leadership just recoiling and scoffing at even the use of such a “therapeutic” term.) I think as long as they can come in respectfully and with their thickest skin — realizing that they might accidentally bump against a “recovering” SGMer’s bruise/wound and set some rockets in orbit — their perspective is really helpful.
I know that having just received One Mom’s gracious response to my meltdown (both on- and offline) has mollified my perspective toward SGM members. Her response was atypical to what I normally experienced by SGMers when I was “in,” which has aided the healing process, not frustrated it.
So I, too, am curious. I just don’t want those of you who do comment here to feel like you’re going to be lining up in front of the firing squad if you take the bait and share your reasons.
PS LOL, Claireon, on post 447! Heh … fiendishly funny.