Every day, I get a lot of interesting email. Some people write to ask questions. Some people write to tell me how horribly sinful the site is. Some folks – for whatever reason – want advice. But mostly, people write to tell me their stories.
I read every one of these emails, and even when someone sees fit to give me a good tongue-lashing (or would that be “keyboard-lashing”? :-) ), I really do enjoy hearing from people. I’m a fairly speedy typist and love to write, so if you email me, you’ll probably get at least one reply. And if your original email strikes my fancy for whatever reason, you might even find that I have quite a lot to say in response.
So anyway, over the past few months, I’ve had many conversations with folks about their Sovereign Grace experiences. I’ve never done an official tally, but I know I’ve heard far more SGM stories via email than have been shared on the site itself.
One striking aspect of so many of the stories people have told me is the almost palpable fear that lurks behind their words. Often, their entire reason for sending email rather than posting their stories to the blog is because they are afraid that if they share publicly, even if they do so anonymously, they might be recognized. Apparently, if their fellow SGM-ers were to find out that they are dissatisfied with aspects of their Sovereign Grace experience, and are sharing about these on a website, terrible things could befall them.
I have to say, for a long time, I never gave these writers’ fear much thought. I understand what it’s like to worry about disappointing people. I have my own reasons for not blogging under my full identity. Because we did not have a bad experience at our Sovereign Grace church but were instead treated very kindly by our SGM pastors, we’ve always believed that they do not deserve to have this site reflect personally on them or their particular church, especially because we’d still like to believe that their congregation is far more grace-based than some and does not manifest the problems that others have described here. Why should they have to suffer because we were bothered by nagging undercurrents, had questions, and then blogged about them?
So I can understand the desire for secrecy.
But the other day, after receiving email from four different individuals who all, in one way or another, expressed their desire to maintain even more anonymity than the website affords, I got to thinking about just how strange it is that a Christian organization could engender so much fear in its people. What, after all, could befall your average Sovereign Grace person if it were discovered that he or she had expressed dissatisfaction online?
Certainly I could not imagine anything truly sinister. I couldn’t picture CJ Mahaney or any other pastor sending out his goons to rough up the individual who had, for instance, shared that she’d been castigated and reprimanded by church leadership for daring to pray for a married woman when she herself is still single. I couldn’t see an angry mob of men with shaved heads and oversized shirts all wielding baseball bats and coming after the gentleman who told of being disciplined for not tithing. I certainly couldn’t envision what was so scandalous about the story of the family who had decided to leave because they’d been rebuked for asking hard questions about their church’s ambitious building program.
Why were they so desperate to keep the stories of their dissatisfaction anonymous?
What power does Sovereign Grace Ministries have over all these folks, especially now, as many of them have already left?
I really don’t know.
I am aware, of course, that many SGM families worry about losing their social lives, which, after some years, tend to revolve around the church and its activities. Some writers have told of extended family whose livelihoods depend upon maintaining good relations with SGM. I guess many people feel like they just have too much to lose, and that it’s too risky for them to come out and even semi-publicly express any dissatisfaction.
Like I said, I can understand this, to a point.
But isn’t it a little odd that a Christian organization could exert such control over its people?
The other day, my sister and I were talking about how many emails I receive from frightened people. That’s when it suddenly hit me that this sort of fear is a very obvious sign that SGM is NOT a normal Christian organization. My sister and I reminisced about how many people we knew during our growing-up years who sort of “made the rounds” of the different churches in our small town. They’d be loyal and involved members of our church, and then something would happen and they’d show up at the church down the street…soon to be loyal and involved there. And then something again would happen, and they’d come back to our church, where it didn’t take a terribly long time for them to be back to their same level of involvement.
Although of course these folks received their share of patronizing smiles, and although some people jokingly referred to them as “church tramps,” their personal embarrassment was really the ONLY consequence of their leaving. Nobody ever spoke ill of them or tried to frame stories about their departure. To the best of my knowledge, they retained their standing in the community and did not see any disruptions in their significant relationships. It was relatively easy for them to return, and they did not have to work to “re-earn” their “credibility” so that they could once again be considered “qualified” for service.
Doubtless, lack of commitment is not a desirable trait in a church member. I’m not in any way saying that it’s good for a church to encourage its people to be flaky. But the level of fear that comes through in the emails I receive is all out of proportion to what’s actually at stake, if Sovereign Grace Ministries is truly a family of “regular” churches. The body of Christ – the “church universal” – is a wonderfully varied and diverse group these days. No single Bible-believing, Bible-teaching denomination or group has a corner on the market of “correct” doctrine or proper methods of fostering fellowship. If you are having serious doubts about your church, or if you have been hurt or harmed by church discipline run amuck, you can find another place to worship and to serve.
If you find yourself irrationally fearing otherwise – if you find yourself laboring under the notion that you cannot leave your current church without horrible harm befalling you and your family - that might be the most obvious sign that it’s time to get out of Dodge.
I'm verwy verwy sad, RT. We can start our own crew, how bout it? 
(and I can be stone cold...hehehe) 
March 7th, 2008 at 9:25 am
Lynn…..yes, you are so right on….I do know a # of folks whose faith would fall apart like a house of cards if they were to actually look at SGM for what it truly is…yes, they are afraid for us to be right, and they absolutely NEED for SGM to be true or risk losing all that they are holding on to as a way of life. so, so true.
Claireon….LOL!!! :-D
March 7th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Lynn,
You said,
I believe that is a very real motivation — especially for some of the second-generation SGMers who have only known Sovereign Grace as the quintessential expression of Christianity. I think it could evoke a deep sense of crisis to think they might have bought full-sail into a spiritual cubic zirconia and have no idea what the real diamond would look like if they saw one.
March 7th, 2008 at 9:34 am
ExIMom,
I am sorry I did not reply earlier to your question of why am I here. Actually, I did try to reply, but my computer glitched, and a reply that I thought posted actually got lost in cyber-space.
So, brief reply here. My reply has to be somewhat of a non-reply. Kris’s Guy posted for us all, “For all of you posters here at Sovereign Grace Uncensored – Be anonymous…you’re safe here.”. There are things that I cannot say because of my desire to continue to be anonymous.
I have my reasons for being here. Kris and Cas know why I am here. But my reasons cannot go public on the blog. I am not an interloper; I am not here to “rebuke all the sinners and convince them to repent.” But I cannot discuss my reasons publicly.
For now that will have to do. I hope you can be satisfied with that. I believe others have communicated that I am welcome here. I don’t think Kris wants this to be a blog only for people who have left SG… I think it has been voiced that respectful SG individuals are welcome here…
I hope that can be a sufficient answer for you…
March 7th, 2008 at 9:35 am
SGMCas wrote:
“But I agree with w/ EI’s mom in her analysis of the blog being like a recovery group of sorts. (Boy, I can just imagine SGM leadership just recoiling and scoffing at even the use of such a “therapeutic” term.) I think as long as they can come in respectfully and with their thickest skin — realizing that they might accidentally bump against a “recovering” SGMer’s bruise/wound and set some rockets in orbit — their perspective is really helpful. ”
Perhaps I am in the minority, but I don’t find their perspective helpful at all. As I mentioned before, I am —as are most of you—intimately familiar with their perspective! I feel rather frustrated to continually read the party line over and over, in the midst of some very cleansing, healing validations.
I sort of liken this blog to the group sessions I have with some of my clients. Occassionally, other professionals, friends, family members will ask if they can come to a group session. Those in the group are adamently opposed to this happening. They interact w/all of these people, love and respect them, dialogue w/them in every other situation….but when they come to group, they want to be able to share their burdens openly, honestly and w/o need of defending their perspective.
I may be the only one that feels this way, and of course, I realize that the blog is not a group session….I’m only sharing my observation that there is —IMO—an overall ‘recovery’ feel that —for me—is broken when I feel once again in defense mode.
Having said that, I’m a big girl and will deal…. :-D
March 7th, 2008 at 9:40 am
TK (#441),
Thank you. You are most kind. I do intend to stay, but I need to moderate my participation. I don’t have time in my life, right now, for many days like Wednesday was (or was it Tuesday…), where I feel like I am in the forest, and little fires keep popping up through the pine needles, and I am dancing around trying to put them out and get the forest back to a safe, peaceful place…
March 7th, 2008 at 9:43 am
EI’s mom,
I can certainly appreciate why that would be your desire (and, believe me, I’ve wanted the same thing a times), I think Kris’s initial intent was to truly offer an “uncensored” look at Sovereign Grace Ministries. Ergo, if we closed it to only those who have a less favorable opinion of SGM, it wouldn’t maintain that “uncensored” aspect to it. So I sort of had to count the costs when I decided to start blogging here and decide ahead of time if I was willing to jump into the deep end of the uncensored pool.
But at the time I came, SGMers were much more disrespectful and combative, so it was a lot more evident that this really was an uncensored blog. By the time you joined us, things had settled down so much, I can understand why you would have the impression that it’s more of a support group than the battleground I entered.
March 7th, 2008 at 9:43 am
#455
I could/should have added that the whole time I fought the fires I knew that all those little fires were popping up because I had unintentionally dropped an ember when I was cooking my own meal…
March 7th, 2008 at 9:49 am
One Mom:
I understand. You are MOST welcome here!
March 7th, 2008 at 9:52 am
One Mom wrote: ” hope that can be a sufficient answer for you…” Well, it’s not my blog so it doesn’t have to be :-) but I appreciate you taking the time to answer.
SGMcas…yeah I get that, I do. And there have been a couple combative folks since I’ve been here, and I realize that the newer SGM’ers have been much more respectful in their tone. I am just sharing how I feel….and having said that, I may have to consider how much participation here will be ok for me. That’s not a reflection on this group, but on where I am in my healing process. Thanks for understanding :-)
March 7th, 2008 at 10:06 am
Oh my…
exinternsmom, you wrote:
Sometime last week, I believe it was commenter Lea who dialogued extensively with me and others about her belief that SGM’s approach to “mortifying sin” was helpful to her. I argued that focusing on what NOT to do had the exact opposite effect on me. It was only when I became really engaged with “walking in the Spirit” (in other words, listening to His voice and doing what He was telling me TO DO) that I found I didn’t have the time, energy, or desire to sin.
You just said it so well! I don’t mean to go back to our old debate about this, but it felt so good to read another person’s words that said exactly what I had tried to say. Thanks! :-)
March 7th, 2008 at 10:09 am
One Mom wrote: “I have my reasons for being here. Kris and Cas know why I am here. But my reasons cannot go public on the blog. I am not an interloper; I am not here to “rebuke all the sinners and convince them to repent.” But I cannot discuss my reasons publicly.”
With all due respect, your posts have been quite in defense of SGM….and I guess that makes me question why you are here, then. Even though the rest of us are anonymous, those of us who have left have been open about what has happened to us and why we are here…and have still managed to remain anonymous. I’m glad that you feel safe here, and I am not saying that you are not welcome. I am saying that I am uncomfortable with none of the happy SGM’ers saying WHY they are here, in general terms….if we can remain anonymous while stating what, in general, has caused us to leave SGM and thus, why we are here, I can’t help but wonder why the same is not possible for the happy SGM’ers?
March 7th, 2008 at 10:11 am
#459
ExIMom,
I am sorry to have been the cause of turmoil. I am an open individual and came with opinions, but open to considering the other side. I am sorry to have prodded your wounds that were healing. I do believe they will continue to heal, and I will understand if you decide to step back, but I will inevitably feel badly my interactions prompted your decision…
So, please, do consider whether the Lord might want you to take a deep breath and then continue to participate. If you choose that, you will have to know that, as Cas said, there have been some in the past, so there may be some in the future, who come in blasting from both SGM pistols… So if you stay, I guess, you’ll have to be prepared to protect yourself, if you can, from being injured by any individual who blasts through the blog inflicting pain with careless (or misunderstood) comments…
Just as I, in choosing to stay, know I will read things that are hard for me to swallow, that I will have to spend time considering about, and that may ultimately cause paradigm shifts in my thinking… I am here open to that possibility.
March 7th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Good morning all!
Sorry for the late reply exinternsmom…
As for my reasons for being here, I would say that HighChurch, SGMCas, and Kris have a few good ideas. I think that HighChurch’s #’s 3 and 4, along with #5 suggested by Kris are the closest. That is, as an “SGMer”, happy in my church, I do want to be aware of any areas that we may need some balance, or are drifting into excess in others. I welcome criticism as a gift from God, and try to honestly evaluate whether or not it is valid. I read your stories and grieve, and hope to avoid creating more like yours, and maybe, *maybe*, even seek to help some of you (not in any sort of a condescending way, but my heart really does break for some of you and the things you have shared).
Also, in everything I do, I seek to balance my take on things with opposing points of view. So, for instance, as a Christian, I read the works of agnostics and atheists. As an evangelical, I read the works of left-leaning christians and writers of “quasi-christian” groups. As a calvinist, I read the works of arminians and open-theists. As a baptist, I read a lot of presbyterians (and am really, really almost convinced so many times!!). And so here, as an “SGMer”, I read your stories and arguments against our particularities and try to discern where we (more specifically I, since I am not a leader in the movement) need to change. I don’t suggest that I do all these things right, but I do think that we are all responsible for the things we say and do, the decisions we make, and I am trying to do the best that I can with what I have.
I have tried to tread very lightly, in full realization of the fact that many here are wounded sheep (if you will), and need care, not a rebuke. Though at times, I do feel as a son whose family is being attacked, and I am tempted to try to defend my families honor a bit. Not in the sort of way that someone mentioned that I need my family to be perfect or anything, I know there are areas that we need to change, and some areas that we may just downright stink at. But I have been a part of many different denominations and *even* religions, and I do respect and appreciate my pastors and the way that they lead us. [I do realize that many here would say that they had been way more involved in the leadership than I, and that the higher up you go the less this becomes true, but alas, I have to go with what I see and experience, though I can be aware of your stories and try to be aware of your warnings].
So, I can go on, but this is already a longer than (I) anticipated comment, and I know that it may not satisfy some. I really do appreciate the welcome atmosphere I have experienced with Kris, SGMCas, HighChurch, and many others (I just named those I have recently interacted with, many of you have warmly welcomed me in the past). And I hope that you don’t mind my poking around here and there, mainly listening, and now and then interacting, usually when invited, as this occasion.
Thanks,
Philip
March 7th, 2008 at 10:14 am
ExIMom,
Can we dialog privately? Kris, will you please send ExIMom my email, if she agrees to let me write to her? Thanks.
March 7th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Late to the party I know, but I couldn’t help but comment on something Hippie said:
Do they realize how crazy that sounds, keeping track of people who left and who left on good graces vs bad? I understand its part of their “loving pursuit” practice but it sure sounds like damage control.
March 7th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Hi Lynn,
I agree with your comment: “oh, so to complete that thought — some of the defenders who come here might be fear-driven: they are frightened that we might actually be right.”
This makes the most sense to me, because Fear and Control are the two main ingredients of their Cozy Cultlike Cake. Infact, they are like the cream of tartar and egg of the batter, as without them the place wouldn’t hold or rise in power. Fear and Control are also the main ingredients in an abusive marriage or abusive relationship of any kind. The misuse of authority, whether you call it an apostle, prophet, or priest, as the head cook at the bakery,….only produces one product…..a bunch of minion muffins. So most of the SGM defender’s (except for a few) are M.&M.’S.
Phillip, you said:
“Also, in everything I do, I seek to balance my take on things with opposing points of view. So, for instance, as a Christian, I read the works of agnostics and atheists. As an evangelical, I read the works of left-leaning christians and writers of “quasi-christian” groups. As a calvinist, I read the works of arminians and open-theists. As a baptist, I read a lot of presbyterians (and am really, really almost convinced so many times!!). And so here, as an “SGMer”, I read your stories and arguments against our particularities and try to discern where we (more specifically I, since I am not a leader in the movement) need to change. I don’t suggest that I do all these things right, but I do think that we are all responsible for the things we say and do, the decisions we make, and I am trying to do the best that I can with what I have.”
You are one of the few!
This comment made me recognize that is why you seem so balanced and healthy in your reasons for joining the blog. You are a rare jewel, and personally someone like you, who is open, compassionate, well studied and not led by fear, seem more qualified to pastor a church than some ruling within the SGM ranks. If you ever do decide to take a Java Jolt, and flee, you really should consider it. You truly are a breath of fresh air on our little blog. Please keep sharing!
And Kris, could we do a thread on the use of fear and control….maybe we could all even do a little research on that topic. Although, I agree with all the discussion going on about Apostles, I don’t think they consider themselves like the N.T. Apostles, and they have said this over and over in writing, sermons, tapes, etc. Whatever rank they choose to wear, their abusive authority is rooted in control and creation of fear.
March 7th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Wow, One Mom and Phillip. Very well said on both of your parts. I think the thing that excites me and, I believe, glorifies God is that people from polar persuasions have an opportunity in this very unique venue to come together and flesh out how to consider others as more important than ourselves and pursue peace with all men (as much as it depends on us) in the face of oftentimes raging differences in doctrinal beliefs, personal experiences, and personality proclivities — just to name a few of the challenges you navigate in a forum like this.
Admittedly, I have an active imagination. But I just picture the Father and Jesus in heaven, with the angels who have been assigned to help clean up after our messes (heh) — in conjunction with the Holy Spirit’s efforts here on earth — cheering us on and celebrating all the little victories along the way: the times that hard hearts have been softened, wounded hearts have been comforted with His healing salve, opinions have been challenged and mollified, Bibles have been cracked to search out issues that have been brought here, isolated (and sometimes “recovering”) SGM former members have found a forum to work through their experience with others who have experienced similar injuries, etc., etc.
I think one of the coolest things is we’ve seen firsthand that you really don’t just need more rules, tighter restrictions, and highly regulated policies and procedures (replete with sundry legal documents) to attain unity of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit really is very effective at accomplishing that on His own.
March 7th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Have you ever rearranged the letters of your name?
Ok here’s one for the weekend:
Charles Joseph Mahaney = CJ’s a Money Pleaser Hahh*!!!
*HAHH (from the Urban Dictionary) – “Something I say when I’m laughing!”
Wish I could stay but I gotta run…..cya all later! ;-)
March 7th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Hi Philip,
You seem very open to the Holy Spirit revealing the truth to you, and that is a tremendous blessing. May God open the eyes of our understanding as we seek Him and His truth. Thank you very much for your openness.
March 7th, 2008 at 10:57 am
freedathink:
LOL. I love your cake and muffin analogy. “Minion Muffins.” Funny!
March 7th, 2008 at 11:26 am
One Mom:
Having had some paradigm shifts myself in the last year or so, I can appreciate that.
Philip,
Don’t forget that for some of us, this is/was OUR family, too. And some of us see what has happened over the years as a betrayal of the “one big happy family” image that we thought we were a part of. Some of us tried to deal with the changes, trying to “think the best” while others were brought into the family and took over.
So, any protectiveness or any sense of family was probably a part of some of US first.
March 7th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Well, this “comments” section is now nearing 500. I think I may follow Freeda’s suggestion and put up a new post about the use of fear. Would you all mind if I closed the comments here? For someone without high speed internet, I can imagine that this thing takes forever to load anyway. I won’t close it till after I put up a new post, though.
The discussion continues here, at “Fear, Control, and ‘Cultic’ Tactics”
March 7th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Hi Ellie,
Right, totally understandable. As I said further down the post, I do fully realize that many here were part of SGM long before I had ever even heard SGM, and were involved way further up in leadership than I may ever be.
I am simply trying to express that, as One Mom alluded to, sometimes the stories hurt, and I can’t always laugh at the jokes, (though sometimes they get me rolling, did you guys read JP’s comment yesterday about the hippies getting converted and ordaining themselves? That was really great!), and sometimes I have to say, yeah, we stink at that. But I do hear all these things as someone who is still in SGM, and am happy where I am, I see God working where I am. Maybe, as Tony said on here somewhere, my pastors just happen to be “spiritual studs” and so we are not experiencing some of the abuse you have shared.
The main point of my comment above (or at least what I wanted the main point to be) is this: I am here as someone who is in SGM and is not experiencing most of the things described on this blog. I am not here, though, to cast stones or judge you for anything- not my job. I do care for you, many stories shared here have broken my heart. I do hope that you experience God’s grace wherever you end up. I also know that SGM has faults, and so I am here listening (reading) to see where we need to change (though again, I am not a leader within SGM, so my influence may be more limited).
I hope that helps to clarify a bit?
Thanks,
Philip
March 18th, 2008 at 4:03 am
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