We’ve had some fascinating discussions taking place over at the previous post, “Fear and Loathing in my ‘In’ Box.” But the “comments” section there is nearing 500 responses and is probably a pain to load for those working without a high-speed connection. So I decided we could continue the discussion here.
Feel free to share anything here that you wish, but some topics to consider addressing might be:
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Why do so many Sovereign Grace Ministries ex-members still express fear when discussing their SGM experiences? After all, what could they possibly have to be afraid of?
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As our commenter “Freeda Think” said, it might be interesting to discuss SGM’s use of fear and control. Do you think these are tactics deliberately employed? Perhaps some of you might want to do a little research and share what you discover. How would a Christian ministry reach a point where its people are afraid of leaving said ministry? Is fear ever a mark of a healthy or “normal” ministry?
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Speaking of “normal” ministries…something that came up in our last discussion was the use of the “C” word (“CULT”) as it applies to Sovereign Grace Ministries. Quite some time ago, in this post, I asked people to weigh in on what makes a cult. Can a ministry proclaim the God and the Gospel of the Bible and yet still become a “cult” through their use of spiritual abuse and “cult-like methodologies”? [As a personal disclaimer here, I have an exceedingly difficult time with the use of this term for SGM! At the root of my discomfort is how I feel about the many dear Sovereign Grace people I know. I simply cannot think of them - individually - as "cult members"!] Yet several ex-SGM folks who post regularly here, and who have come across as very thoughtful, well-balanced, and educated, have in recent days suggested that in their opinions, SGM is indeed a “cult.” So perhaps we could discuss whether this term (“cult”) is simply too inflammatory, too pejorative, and too condemning to use for a “family of churches” that preach the Word of God.
All right, people. It’s time to get to work. Please join me in the discussion by posting a comment below.
I never got the "meeting" thing, either. 
March 7th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Miss Bennet:
You could always opt for:
Ms. Bennet-Darcy
hahahahahaha!
March 7th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Mrs. D,
Aww … Thank you so much for your thoughtful words. *Cas blushes.* Seriously, it’s encouraging to know anyone is learning from my many mistakes. (And that’s not self-deprecating false humility. I’m being straight up.)
Now, ladies, about the SGM services … At least I have things I can do during them: count the goatees and denim jumpers, judge parents who can’t keep their children under “control” during worship, assign worm values to each of the worship songs (I use a scale of 1-5 for simplicity … and so you can flash the assigned value to a fellow dissenter discreetly), look for the biggest rod hanging out of a purse, find the most over-sized polo in the room, find the slickest way to doodle on the outline page(s) while making it look like I’m feverishly taking notes, try to catch eyes with parents who are called back to children’s ministry, identify which apostolic team member the speaker has chosen to emulate … The options are positively endless.
Dennis, you made me proud. Phillip, you are clearly more secure than I had ever imagined. Heh
March 7th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
SGM Cas, re 52
You’ve got a rather wicked sense of humor.
I love it!
March 7th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
SGM Casualty,
RE your comment #23, I just have to say, one of my favorite movies of all time is “Sense and Sensibility.” Who can explain such a thing?
The one good thing about our Jane Austen dispute is, this ought to put to rest those persnickety rumors that you and I are one and the same person writing under different “handles.”
March 7th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Sorry ladies but personally I find Jane Austin movies
Boooooooooring
/think of a fog horn…
;)
March 7th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
When can we get back to bashing SGM? :-)
March 7th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Oh…I was hoping we forgot that!
Ok, techie question…how are ya’ll putting those cute little smiley faces next to your comments? That might help sometimes when you can’t tell if someone is joking or not…like the first sentence of this comment!
technically challenged,
Philip
March 7th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Lynn,
Wicked? You slay me! (Mwahaha …)
Kris,
If the last thread didn’t clear that up, yes, this controversy should certainly do it. If you would just stop writing and thinking like me, that would also help significantly. Just a thought. But you just let the Lord be your guide.
Refugee,
Thank you for living up to your name. Alas, a voice of reason.
Dennis,
Sorry. I think all of this bashing has made us just a touch slap happy. Besides, I vaguely recall a quite lengthy Lord of the Rings volley from yesterday. So it’s our turn. But I promise I’ll post a more serious thought later.
March 7th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
I had to go back and catch up on some of the comments after being away from my computer for an hour. So first of all, thanks, Lynn and Freeda, for your kind words. I had my mom visiting me for the past few days, and she was teasing me the whole time that this blog has become like a second job (the first, of course, being my full-time occupation as hausfrau and proper Titus 2 woman :-) ). I tried to explain to her that most of the time, I find it quite invigorating. I learn something every day, and I also feel this tremendous compassion for the people who write me privately.
Although we did not descend deep into the bowels of SGM leadership (we never even became members, though we would have at one point, had a membership class been offered), I did spend some years in another ministry, experiencing many of same types of spiritual abuse that people have gone through with SGM. While our previous experience was different in many respects, the “awakening” process was extremely painful and quite similar to what many people have described here.
So I can totally relate to the folks who write to me and share their own stories. It’s been good to realize that there was at least one purpose for the years we spent plodding along in deception. It reminds me of that verse, where God promises that He will “restore the years that the locust has stolen.” For awhile, that is how I felt about the time (and money!) we “wasted” at our previous church – that there was little of redeeming value in that experience, that those were years that the “locust had stolen.” But I’m beginning now to see that there might have even been a purpose in the way God permitted me – someone with so much doctrinal and Scriptural knowledge that there is NO WAY anyone would ever have pegged me as someone who could be deceived like that by a false teacher – to succumb to errant beliefs.
So thanks for the kind words, but just know that you all have blessed me every day.
March 7th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Now DON’T be picking on AnnE!! ;)
Jane Austin is OK, but I LOVE Anne, lol!
March 7th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
I do my smiley face with : then – then ) There is a list posted somewhere on how to do a very wide variety. Can someone please post that link agin?
March 7th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Dennis re 56,
I was just thinking a minute ago:
“All this levity! Quick — someone say something bitter and slanderous before we ruin our reputation here!”
See, SGM Cas, I’m wicked, too!
March 7th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Thanks Dennis. Sometimes I forget that ya’ll can’t see that I’m smiling while typing in my comment. :-)
March 7th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
I am sorry for my impatience, but it seems like I am not happy anymore unless I am ripping someone in SGM to shreads. Right now I am going through withdrawls during all of this Jane Austen gibberish. :-)
March 7th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
There ya be:
http://hummingbunny.wordpress.com/emoticons/
March 7th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Thanks Ellie!
March 7th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
OK, SGM Casualty -
This bit here:
is quite possibly one of the funniest things anyone has ever written on this site! Your line, “assign worm values to each of the worship songs,” hit particularly close to home.
You see, at the risk of revealing a bit too much of the sometimes twisted sense of humor that my husband and I share, I will tell y’all a little secret. “Guy” and I used to rate the songs as well. Longtime SGM folks who love Sovereign Grace music, please don’t be offended. Just remember that about 95% of it was completely foreign to us, so we didn’t have all the good vibrations and positive associations from it. In our minds, it was just one unfamiliar dirge after the next.
So after about our third Sunday, when we realized that this was just going to be the way that “worship” was at this church where we’d already come to feel so welcomed and so happy, we reconciled ourselves to worshipping the cross and singing about our worthless sinfulness. But we devised our own little joke – we rated the songs. Only, we didn’t use “worms,” as SGM Casualty suggests. (That, of course, would have been so much more appropriate!) Rather, we used “razor blades.” Yes, razor blades, as in instruments of wrist-slashing or other types of “cutting.”
My husband and I would whisper to each other, after a particular song, “And the judges give that…two and a quarter razor blades!” Or if a worship ditty had made us feel particularly low and guilty, we might award it four razor blades. The more depressing the song, the more razor blades. After awhile, we didn’t even need to whisper our assessments. We’d just flash the corresponding number of fingers to each other, like gang members using hand signals.
OK, now that I’ve officially disqualified myself as your moderator, I think I’ll go in the other room and make an “observation” to myself. No more dark humor. No more sarcasm. No more cynicism. None.
March 7th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Sorry guys-I really like Jane Austen films.
But -I can not stand Anne of Green Gables.
My summary of AOGG:
!. Did he send you a letter
2. I havent gotten a letter
3. He sent you a letter
4. what was in the letter
5. How many scenes can we talk about letters? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
March 7th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Ellie, thanks, very helpful. Now, if I see any other “SGMers” coming on here with guns a blazin, I’ll remind them that a great way to make their point is to follow their comment with a
:-)
March 7th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
No, no Dennis:
If you want to express your frustration in Jane Austen-speak, you must word it like this:
“OH! My poor nerves! All this Austen talk is vexing me so! It just can’t be borne! Someone get me my smelling salts!!’
Get it?
March 7th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Back to our regularly scheduled programming:
Has anyone checked out that one link that Lynn posted way up at the top?
It’s phenomenal. Really. So much of it rings true for SGM. I wish everyone would take a look at it and share your thoughts.
March 7th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
You guys crack me up! I needed that. It’s been an emotional week, and I needed the levity. I didn’t realize that when I delurked, I would cause such a stir.
March 7th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Lizzy Bennett ALWAYS caused a stir — that impestuous young girl!
We’re so glad you came out and played with us!
March 7th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Kris-
That was hilarious. The razor blade rating system- priceless. No wonder you guys didn’t last…..you have personalities!
We sing the Psalter at our church which is the polar opposite muscially to anything SG- lots of minor keys and crazy dissonant harmonies, etc.- wonder what the rating system would be for the Psalter?
March 7th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Oh my gosh Kris!! Your razor blade comments are hysterical! I can just picture (what I think you guys look like) you guys giving each other finger signals in church!! What a riot!
You’re not doing anything to help the rumor that you and SGM Cas are one and the same with that kind of humor!!!
March 7th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Lynn-
hmm-never considered the possible postings of Multiple personality disorders showing up on the site.
You may be on to something
March 7th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
HighChurch,
I love the Psalter! Call me weird [chorus of SGM drone voices obediently chant "Weird!"], but I will even sit down at my keyboard, switch it over to the “pipe organ” function, and play my way through the Psalter when I feel so inclined. It brings back very soothing, secure, reassuring memories of my childhood.
OK, enough self-disclosure for one day. Now y’all know your moderator is a Jane Austen-loving, hymn-playing freak with a really sick sense of humor! Ah well. :-)
March 7th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Razor blades and worms, that’s priceless.
I haven’t been at CLC for almost 10 years. I used to miss the worship. Sounds like worship (among other things) took a turn for the worse. Sad.
March 7th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Musicman,
Funny, but you know better than to bring talk psychobabble — use a Biblical term for it!
And I would have commented on your clever AOGG post, but I never read that book!
March 7th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Sheesh…me and my cruddy editing…
should be
“better than to talk pyschobabble…”
March 7th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Kris-
Oh, my….we would have a lot in common!!! I do love the Psalter. I teach it to my kids. We had our niece and nephew over the other weekend and they were proudly singing some crazy old chant/cheer about the B-I-B-L-E…Yay God! (Something to that effect…don’t worry SGMers…they are not from a SGM church- this is an ecumenical bust!) So, my kids start singing Psalm 98 to “show off” what they learned in church.
Neeless to say, it was in stark contrast to “Yay God”… I was never so proud. :-)
March 7th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
I suppose I need to remain on-topic. ;)
I love the A&E Pride and Prejudice miniseries. (I was introduced to it by my then-future-wife and some of the girls from her SGM church!)
I also think there’s absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with Mr. Darcy’s behavior. My wife believes that’s because I act just like him. I think it’s merely a coincidence.
March 7th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
I haven’t posted a whole lot recently but sure have been diligently reading the blog. Thank God for Google Reader.
I would agree with what some of the others have said about SG “loyalists” who come on this blog. I am sure that it really worries them that at least some of what has been shared here on this blog might be true. They certainly don’t want it to be true; stated another way it is called denial.
It has been my experience that when someone so quickly and passionately denies something as being the truth it means that they haven’t even “entertained” or been open to the possibility that things may be the way or at least partially the way they are described here at Sovereign Grace Ministries.
The other related term that was shared a while back was cognizant dissonance. I found it explained this way on one website:
Cause and Effect – Cognitive Dissonance Paradigms and Revisions to Dr. Festinger’s Original Theory
The Belief-Disconfirmation Paradigm
Dissonance arises when people are exposed to information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the change in belief does not reduce the dissonance, the dissonance may lead to misinterpretation of the information. In addition, some may gravitate toward others who share that belief, or even attempt to persuade others to accept the belief. One study conducted by Dr. Festinger (Festinger, Riecken, and Schacter, 1956) involved observing a group committed to a belief that (per prophecy) a giant flood would wash away the entire continent. The group believed that flying saucers were to swoop down and save them from this massive flood. The experiment then picks up the group after they had realized there was no flood. Members of the group who were alone during this time did not maintain their beliefs, where as those who waited with other group member maintained their faith. Those who believed sought to persuade others of their beliefs (that somehow God stepped in and prevented the flood). This persuasion would add cognizant consonance with the belief.
http://www.ciadvertising.org/sa/fall_03/adv382J/mbabbott/cause2.htm
An interesting item here is that those who were “alone” and not part of the group didn’t continue to believe what wasn’t true. That that remained part of the group did.
March 7th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Steve-
That is a poignant example of what happens while in SGM. I know when we left it was for 2 specific doctrinal reasons, but when we encountered other churches and believers and spent time on our own thinking….the whole crazy thing that is SGM became crystal clear to us. You can’t really see it while you are in it.
One funny thing- when we first went to our current church we were explaining that we came from SGM. Our pastor had no idea what were talking about and had never heard of CJ Mahaney. That was a an “a-ha” moment for me. It was very liberating in many ways and depressing because I thought the whole world revolved around SGM. Now I know it is a small fish in the sea….alebit a “dangerous” fish! :-) IMHO!
March 7th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Lynn-
Thank you for your observation…I will have to pray about being more careful about my doctrine.
But honestly-I think it’s not my fault because my mom used to make me watch re-runs of Leave it To Daddy and did not affirm my inner child’s longings to watch The Jefferson’s and MTV. At least, that’s what the therapist on my local AM talk station told me
March 7th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
The more I read the further I am behind. I’ll catch up someday.
March 7th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
High Church-
I had a similar “a-ha” moment.
We were at a church party where we had some folks who were new to the church. We played a game where a name was taped to your back and you had to go around the party and try and get clues as to whose name was taped to you.
Anyway- one of the new folks had CJ Mahaney taped to him. It took 15 minutes for everyone else to finally guess their names. This poor guy never did figure his out and when someone finally told him it was CJ-the guy asked if he was a TV actor or something like that. He didn’t have a clue and he still didn’t understand even after a few attempts to explain who CJ is.
It hit me in that moment-that CJ and other members of some leadership team didn’t mean squat to the average walk off the street church member. But that the way we showed them love in Christ was the most important thing that brought him to church. Not being aligned to some human leader, but by being aligned to Jesus and his Kingdom.
Anyway-your story reminded me of that incident.
March 7th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
OK Dennis and Theo,
My girls have convinced me do an all night Lord of the Rings viewing! So no Jane Austen for my teen girls….they are making the plans, as I type; so you guys have to pray that my husband and I can actually stay awake for all 3 movies, back to back.. They have assured me that they will fast forward their least favorite parts, so maybe I will make it through all 3!! My oldest daughter taught herself Elven language. She writes it in her journal, so even if I wanted to read her diary, I couldn’t! lol
So what do you guys think about the whole fear and control topic? The reason I ask, is that was the one thing that I truly felt like God spoke to me about without a doubt. I remember distinctly praying and asking for guidance with what we should do when we began to see problems within SGM, and I felt like God showed me that “a spirit of fear and control” lay at the root of all the problems. Would you all agree or disagree, and can you expound? And which comes first, fear or control, or are they directly linked? Do you think the fear and control tactics within SGM are similar to that used in abusive families, or families of alcoholics? My friend, who is a nurse, said that in alcoholic families, you are taught to not think, not talk, and not feel. Is that true and do you see similarities? I also heard that most of the apostolic team came from alcoholic homes and upbringing. Is that true? I promise I am not doing a sociology class, I am just wanting input here.
March 7th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Musicman,
You had me for a minute — I thought you were being serious at first in #85!!
March 7th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Freeda,
Your nurse friend’s observation is spot-on, but if you think about it, she could be describing SGM as an organization, and not just the family dynamic where alcoholism is present. I’d like us to ask ourselves why this is.
I have very much wanted to bring this up for serious consideration before, but every time I got close, I sensed that nobody wanted to “go there.” And that is, does anybody else find it hugely significant that CJ Mahaney grew up the son of an alcoholic?
To me, that explains so much of the control and fear at SGM, as well as a multiplicity of other issues, such as the perfectionism people have described in their emails to me…the control that CJ apparently exerts over his kids (and the control that he’s freely discussed exerting over Carolyn’s wardrobe). It would also explain his aversion to anything resembling psychology.
Thoughts, anyone?
March 7th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Hi Kris,
Both of my parents were alcoholics, but we are now new creations in Christ. So to answer your question, no, I do not see any coorelation at all with C J and his father. There is some psychology type thinking that does not apply, and I think this is one of them.
March 7th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Dennis,
Yes, we are new creations in Christ. But can’t there still be residual habits and personality characteristics that, for instance, make us crave control over our circumstances?
March 7th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
I guess my reasoning is, here you have this guy who has created an organization that openly and heavily relies upon him for its identity. This organization is VERY MUCH characterized by wanting to control everything – especially dissent. It also teaches its people to avoid psychology like the plague. There are heavy themes of perfectionism, of desperately striving to be a certain way so that we can please God. SGM’s members are taught to distrust their feelings, to “man up” and follow only what they’re taught.
I mean…all the problems and trends we’ve been discussing are the exact same problems and trends that occur in families impacted by alcoholism. It could be a coincidence. I’m suggesting that it’s not.
March 7th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Kris,
Exactly! Those are the things that I have often wondered about. I have family members, friends, and others that I know who grew up in alcohlic homes, or are recovering alcoholics. There does seem to be an emphasis on protecting the outward appearance of the organiztion, whether it be the family, or just personal relationships. I made the mistake once to finally confront someone who was a former alcoholic, and who grew up with a family member who was an alcoholic. I confronted her on her anger, totally not even thinking of the way it might come across. I was stupid and naive, but thought we were good enough friends that we could say anything to each other. Boy was I wrong!! Needless to say, she completely rejected me as her friend, and the shunning began. It was the weirdest thing I have ever been through in any friendship I have ever had. But after this happened, I began reading a few books and studying the topic. My own father had a problem with drinking, but his issues were somewhat controlled, and he did manage to recover. And inspite of his drinking, he was the most loving and warm father ever. Plus I had an incredible mom who affirmed me and encouraged me like none other. She was AWESOME!!!! But I did see in my father, a terrible need for approval and acceptance. And I noticed this in my friend, as well. I could not understand it, because I felt so totally accepted and loved by my being adopted into God’s family. I just assumed that as Christians, everyone should feel that way….boy was I wrong! Now I see how ignorant I was, and naive. When I talked to my friend who was a nurse about all this, she said she remembers in one of her clinical classes they studied the topic. And there usually is real insecurity coupled with an addictive personality. I suspect that folks in leadership, especially with outwards signs of Autoimmune diseases, are truly some of the most insecure people out there. And their need for control is probably insatiable. Good stage and theatrical appearance behind the pulpit, are just great skills that have been developed from years of learning how to cope with their true insecurities and feelings of rejection. There is usually a lot of shame and fear of rejection in alcohlic families.
March 7th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
From a website about alcoholism, here’s a quiz:
1. Do you constantly seek approval and affirmation?
It may be because you don’t really know what “normal” is — you have to try to figure it out from the actions and reactions of others.
2. Do you fail to recognize your accomplishments?
What seems routine to you might be considered “overachieving” by everybody around you.
3. Do you fear criticism?
In childhood “criticism” often was accompanied by some form of abuse, verbal or otherwise.
4. Do you overextend yourself?
Just carrying a normal work load was never good enough. You had to do more to avoid the wrath of the alcoholic.
5. Have you had problems with your own compulsive behavior?
Without knowing it, you probably developed a patern in childhood of approaching everything “alcoholically.”
6. Do you have a need for perfection?
One little slip up and the alcoholic might explode into anger. That deep-seeded fear can carry over into adulthood.
7. Are you uneasy when your life is going smoothly, continually anticipating problems?
The alcoholic always sabotaged the “good times” like holidays, birthdays, vacations, etc. Things never turned out the was the were planned.
8. Do you feel more alive in the midst of a crisis?
People can become addicted to excitement. They find “normal” people and situations boring.
9. Do you still feel responsible for others, as you did for the problem drinker in your life?
There’s always that nagging feeling that you were somehow responsible for the alcoholic’s drinking. Maybe if you had done something differently…
10. Do you care for others easily, yet find it difficult to care for yourself?
You are comfortable in the “caretaker” role, but extremely uncomfortable doing things for yourself, like spending money on something just for you.
11. Do you isolate yourself from other people?
If they get too close, they may find out your “secrets.”
12. Do you respond with fear to authority figures and angry people?
The authority figures in your childhood were probably abusive. You expect the same from all authority figures. When the alcoholic became angry, it usually meant something extreme was about to happen.
13. Do you feel that individuals and society in general are taking advantage of you?
You grew up with someone who was an expert at controlling and manipulating everyone around them. Trust is not something that comes naturally.
14. Do you have trouble with intimate relationships?
Possibly the only “love” that you saw demonstrated in childhood was the love the alcoholic had for the bottle.
15. Do you confuse pity with love, as you did with the problem drinker?
You may be attracted to people who “need” you or people you know that you can “fix.”
16. Do you attract and/or seek people who tend to be compulsive and abusive?
Again, normal people bore you and you don’t understand them. You are more comfortable around people who you can relate to and won’t judge you.
17. Do you cling to relationships because you are afraid of being alone?
It may be from your deep-seeded fear of abandonment. One way or the other, your alcoholic parent emotionally or physically abandoned you for the bottle.
18. Do you mistrust your own feelings and the feelings expressed by others?
How many times have you heard, “I’m sorry. It won’t happen again.” But it did.
19. Do you find it difficult to identify and express your emotions?
You were told that it was not okay to cry. You were never allowed to be angry and if you were you faced serious consequencies or ridicule.
20. Do you think parental drinking may have affected you?
March 7th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
Kris-
I think you may be right about the alcoholic connection.
I have noticed another trend-many of my friends who have continued on with SGM for over 10 years now (many in leadership) came from divorced homes. Many of them with very little contact or respect for their biological father. I sometimes wondered if SGM’s clearly defined gender roles and church life was a comfort, in comparison to the chaos they experienced in their home life growing up. I’m not saying it’s the all in all for people who like SGM, but still, I wonder if it influences some folks.
March 7th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
wow… this blog fills up fast…!
lynn asked me a while back (http://sguncensored.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/fear-and-loathing-in-my-in-box/ #164):
“I was wondering what your “take” on SGM was, whether you were an impartial third-party doing your job as Wiki editor (or whatever your formal job title is), but it does seem as if you have some interest in this discussion, correct?”
Really… I love Jesus and follow him. As the son of a historian and a former professional writer, I get a little bugged about revisionist history.
I have read most every book on restorationist history and charted the progress of PDI for years. When I read the Wikipedia articles (as they were), they just read like press-releases for SGM. To be fair, though, a lot of Wikipedia articles are like this and it’s nothing malicious on the part of the person who put it up; it’s just the way these articles start out their lives. I didn’t have any issue with SGM, but just wanted a balanced view of history as it actually was.
So, I sought to undertake a rewrite on the articles. In one article I happened to cite SGM Uncensored as a reference. Then I put a link up to it. Someone took it down. I put it up. Someone took it down. Others joined in the struggle on each side. In the end it got silly, so I got reading your blog to see what was driving the other editors so crazy. It’s an interesting read!
Sadly, though, your blog is currently not listed on Wikipedia. Discussion is still going on about having a section on criticisms of SGM. If anybody knows any published or electronic criticisms other than this blog, I’d be interested to know!
I do intend to beef-up the section on present-day SGM, too. Maybe write something about their church-planting and pastors’ college ventures. Not much controversy there…. I hope.
March 7th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
I think we are barking up the wrong tree with this whole alcoholism discussion. It is nothing more that pure speculation, regardless of all of the supposed correlations in other situations. Why don’t we keep this discussion about the facts, and leave the psychology to the professionals. I think this type of speculation is fruitless, and nothing more than a guessing game. I am very uncomfortable with it. To me, this does border on gossip.
March 7th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Joe,
Thanks for your answer. It was purely curiosity that prompted my question. I didn’t know if you were “assigned” to the Sovereign Grace Ministries page on Wiki and it was just “a job” to you or whether you had some interest in religion/Christianity/SGM.
Thanks for all you’ve done in Wiki-land for our “cause.”
You said you’d be charting PDI for years — was this blog the first time you’d heard a dissenting view?
You said, “If anybody knows any published or electronic criticisms other than this blog, I’d be interested to know!”
WE WISH THERE WERE! We’ve all said many times that we’ve looked and looked and couldn’t find ANYTHING!
Hey — you said, “Sadly, though, your blog is currently not listed on Wikipedia.”
Can Sovereign Grace Uncensored be it’s OWN entry???
March 7th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
…I meant to say, “…you’d BEEN charting PDI for years…”