We’ve had some fascinating discussions taking place over at the previous post, “Fear and Loathing in my ‘In’ Box.” But the “comments” section there is nearing 500 responses and is probably a pain to load for those working without a high-speed connection. So I decided we could continue the discussion here.
Feel free to share anything here that you wish, but some topics to consider addressing might be:
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Why do so many Sovereign Grace Ministries ex-members still express fear when discussing their SGM experiences? After all, what could they possibly have to be afraid of?
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As our commenter “Freeda Think” said, it might be interesting to discuss SGM’s use of fear and control. Do you think these are tactics deliberately employed? Perhaps some of you might want to do a little research and share what you discover. How would a Christian ministry reach a point where its people are afraid of leaving said ministry? Is fear ever a mark of a healthy or “normal” ministry?
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Speaking of “normal” ministries…something that came up in our last discussion was the use of the “C” word (“CULT”) as it applies to Sovereign Grace Ministries. Quite some time ago, in this post, I asked people to weigh in on what makes a cult. Can a ministry proclaim the God and the Gospel of the Bible and yet still become a “cult” through their use of spiritual abuse and “cult-like methodologies”? [As a personal disclaimer here, I have an exceedingly difficult time with the use of this term for SGM! At the root of my discomfort is how I feel about the many dear Sovereign Grace people I know. I simply cannot think of them - individually - as "cult members"!] Yet several ex-SGM folks who post regularly here, and who have come across as very thoughtful, well-balanced, and educated, have in recent days suggested that in their opinions, SGM is indeed a “cult.” So perhaps we could discuss whether this term (“cult”) is simply too inflammatory, too pejorative, and too condemning to use for a “family of churches” that preach the Word of God.
All right, people. It’s time to get to work. Please join me in the discussion by posting a comment below.
March 7th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Joe-
I still see the site listed under external links on the SGM entry.
March 7th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
“Can Sovereign Grace Uncensored be it’s OWN entry???”
good question. i’m not sure it can, actually, if it can’t be cited in an article!
i have heard dissenting stuff about SGM before. i have good friends in SGM, but they actually love it and… to be honest… their local SGM church is (in my opinion) far and away the best church of any description for miles around (am i allowed to say that here?!)
i think, though, that my friend says that, since they discovered reformed theology they give off an air of having “arrived”, rather than searching and learning in an ongoing way… that said, a couple i know recently joined because the charismatic stuff was so good and attracted them…. it’s very culturally-relevant church where pastors quote goth rock and talk about having poker games with their neigbours… so, I’m guessing that’s not typical!?
March 7th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Dennis,
I understand that you might be uncomfortable about this discussion. And as you can attest, I’ve been the first to jump in and suggest we might be veering into unprofitable discussions when things like personal details of peripheral SGM people have been posted.
But CJ is not peripheral to Sovereign Grace Ministries. I would posit that he is central to SGM and still has a firm hand on the reins of the organization.
I find it interesting that discussing Seedge and his personal quirks sometimes feels like the Holy Grail when we seek to understand SGM. We can say almost anything about anyone else, but mention something about Seedge personally, and even people who have been brutally victimized by SGM will leap to his defense. Fascinating.
Yet if we were discussing candidates for political office and it came up that one of them exhibited traits that “jived” with having unresolved issues over familial alcoholism, I don’t think people would be so quick to dismiss such a discussion. Especially if it came out that the candidate sought to exert extreme control over his campaign staff, for instance. I think people would be all over it. I think people would believe that such behavioral patterns might need to be dealt with openly before they’d be willing to give such a candidate their vote.
It’s my opinion that CJ’s influence over SGM folks is a lot more far-reaching than that of any political candidate. He plays a far more important role in their lives than does the President, for instance. If we can perhaps come to a better understanding of where his thirst for control originated, I think such speculation is helpful. If anything, it makes him seem more human and more of a sympathetic character, rather than just another power-hungry control freak.
March 7th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
IHi Kris,
I don’t think it has to do with it being C J. For me, maybe it is too close to home. I would not want to see myself being discussed in a similar fashion because of my parents being alcoholics.
March 7th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Joe,
Your friend’s SGM church certainly sounds quite different from the norm. I guess that’s really good for your friend! :-)
The whole Wikipedia thing seems like a catch-22 to me. This website is considered “inadmissable” as a source or a reference in part because it is the product of so many contributors, rather than some supposedly “impartial” informational site. Yet Wikipedia itself sort of boasts that its many contributors eventually insure balance in its entries. Also, according to the logic of some, we can only have a “criticisms” section for SGM if we can find more sources online where criticisms have been published. Considering the frenzied zeal with which SGM folks have attempted to control the content of the Wikipedia page, is it any wonder that this is the only “critical” site that exists?
Sometimes I feel a little bit like Alice In Wonderland. Just yesterday, Tim Challies published a short entry about Piper and Mahaney, in which he lauds them for having given Mark Driscoll some “private brotherly correction and feedback” at the recent Resurgance conference. Why can’t Tim Challies see the irony of honoring Seedge for offering up correction? And why does this “correction” thing seem to be a one-way street? How is it that these abuses can exist within SGM, and yet nobody in the larger Reformed world will step up and investigate?
March 7th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Dennis,
I really do understand your feelings. I’m impressed that you are willing to publicly acknowledge that this subject hits close to home for you. I guess that’s why I believe that in your case, you wouldn’t have to worry about having your life dissected in such a fashion. You yourself already demonstrate an openness about it. Plus, you’re not a leader who has set yourself up as someone to whom people simply must submit.
In CJ’s case, this little factoid about his upbringing is not something that has been widely known. The very fact that, despite all his on-stage tearfests and other emotional antics, he’s never shared openly about this sort of pain makes me think that it is something he does not want people to know. He’s so “open” about his other supposed “imperfections.” Why not this one?
Maybe he just doesn’t want his people to start connecting the dots? To start realizing that perhaps, in an ironic way, SGM’s foibles reflect his own quest for perfection and ultimate control?
March 7th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Dennis,
I can understand your not wanting to go there, as it is a very uncomfortable subject even for me, who had an alcoholic father. But I did hear once that most of the apostolic leadership and founders came out of alcoholic families. And if that is true, which I apologize if it is gossip, then do you think it is worth discussing?
March 7th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
Kris,
I have a cousin who is an alcoholic although he has been in recovery for 20 years. He said to me once that when he realized he was and told his friends, he lost his friends. Why? Because they were just like him. People were avoiding him because if he is an alcoholic they are too, because they all drank as much as he did, whenever he did, wherever he did.
On Christian Research Institute Hank Hanegraff talks about the difference between a cult,heresy and abhorrent teaching. They are different. Of course Enroth uses the term ‘fringe movement’. I heard Tim Keller speak once about how ‘fringe movements’ get all the attention. For people who are naysayers about christianity sadly fringe movements just add fuel to the fire for them.
Maybe in the same way my cousin lost his friends some of the main players in the reformed world won’t speak up because it hits to close to home.
Doug Wilson is another one in the reformed world who is controversial even from within his own peer group.
March 7th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Sonya,
Those are interesting observations. I do believe you are right. But there is something really strange going on when CJ Mahaney is lauded by Tim Challies for “correcting” Mark Driscoll. The obvious implication is that Challies – who, although not a preacher or church leader, still has a lot of clout through his website and is, I’d say, one of the junior “Reformed Big Dogs” – believes that Mahaney is in a position where it is proper for him to be the one offering up the correction. What is at the root of Challies’ belief in Mahaney’s authority? Why does Tim Challies think that Mahaney is so great, so above reproach, that he can take Mark Driscoll aside and remove specks out of Driscoll’s eyes?
Moreover…is this “brotherly correction” ever a 2-way street?
I know nobody knows the answers to my questions. But I find it so frustrating that it seems like SGM and CJ get this total free pass and are daily gaining in credibility when they’ve never publicly addressed their own issues.
March 7th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
I had to say something because I “must have my share in the conversation!”
Anyway, I just wanted to add that I’ve posted some articles here by Douglas Wilson from the “Credenda Agenda”. For the record, I don’t know anything about him or his ministry. I just happened to read some good stuff in that magazine, and many of the articles were authored by him and I was impressed by many of the things I read.
“You don’t know what I suffer!”
March 7th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Right. It might help if I clued you in as to what in the world I was going on about in the above comment.
Sonya mentioned something about Doug Wilson in her post #108:
“Ten-thousand a year!”
March 7th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Hi Freeda,
I don’t think it worth discussing because it involves major speculations. There is no way to search out the truth of such suppositions. It seems futile and unproductive.
We can discuss his controlling spirit in a much more concrete fashion through our own very real experiences at the hands of this domineering leadership structure.
March 7th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
I just wanted to point out that someone needs to throw musicman a line because he has clearly gone off the deep end of the Lake of Shining Waters. His quotes reveal that he is not only familiar with Anne of Green Gables, but also Anne of Avonlea.
Someone give that man a carrot!
March 7th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Hi Dennis,
You may find this attention rather unwelcome, but I just wanted to say to you that I’m so glad that the good Lord brought you out of a painful past and to Himself and blessed you with a loving family. Kudos to you for watching Anne of Green Gables with your daughter, too! You sound like a really sweet guy and a great Dad!
March 7th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Kris and Freeda,
I do think it’s interesting that people are so reluctant to talk about CJ. I think part of it is a godly, healthy fear of entering into gossip. Although I don’t think it’s foul play at all to analyze the possible role growing up with an alcoholic parent may play in someone’s life, I think people may be hesitant to talk about it in reference to a specific person.
But, at the same time, I agree with you that looking at someone’s past, at times, does allow us to see others in terms of their humanity. Even David Powlison (their only voice on the counseling front when I was in) says, “Our pasts provide the context for our current struggles.” I like his perspective on that actually. Like with me, I’m not defined by having grown up in an abusive home, and I’ve beat most of the statistics you read about former foster kids (by God’s grace). YET I definitely learned in counseling that there were things about my past that introduced certain vulnerabilities that still play out today.
Case in point, put me in a real-life crisis and I am as calm and placid as the day is long … Friends have reported it’s almost eerie. However, I have the most ridiculously exaggerated startle response I’ve ever seen. I actually had to leave the theatre and go into the bathroom w/ a full-blown panic attack (crushing chest pain and all) during the movie (brace yourselves) Finding Nemo. Ugh! How weird is that??? I still have to leave the room now when I know that one shark will appear suddenly — even though I know it’s coming. But adventure movies or any movie with the element of surprise, I’ve learned, are completely out of the question for me. I also learned that I positively cannot do the glaucoma tests (you know, the puffs of air). The last time I had one done, it took multiple attempts with each eye b/c I’d startle so badly and pull away before they could get the reading. As soon as the tech finished, I completely lost it and was overtaken with a torrent of tears and had to leave the office. (Now I sign a waiver!)
Anyway, CJ would probably hear something like this and most likely say, “That’s just anxiety, and being anxious is sin.” But it wouldn’t matter how much I “repented” for my anxiety and “took my heart to task,” apart from God miraculously intervening, I’ve just learned that’s part and parcel with the past I had, where I lived with a continual fear of surprise attack by a sadistically evil woman.
And, Dennis, just hearing that little tidbit about your past actually brought insight (and I mean this in the most gentle, respectful way) into some of your current persuasions and reactions sometimes. Again, I don’t mean that in a bad way at all. Please hear that. I just thought, “Ahh .. okay, I’ll try to be sensitive to that.” Ya know?
So I think that sometimes recognizing someone’s past experiences and how they could be establishing the context for their current struggles/behaviors can go a long way in helping me to cultivate a heart of mercy and compassion for people. You’re actually less apt to judge harshly when you find out little glimpses into what has happened behind the scenes to mold the person into who they are. Even Hollywood knows that. They’ll make you hate a certain character, just to find out that s/he has some very good “reason” for being obnoxious. And then you sort of enjoy the triumph of that person being won over by something/-one in a way that helps break this person out of the current patterns of behavior that are adding tension to the movie. And when writers DON’T do this, it’s because they just want you to hate the character.
Getting back to Seedge, I’ve heard him share little things about his life in passing that have, over the years, provided small, seemingly insignificant insights into the man behind the curtain, so to speak. If it is true — that CJ’s experience with growing up with an alcoholic parent COULD be contributing to his compulsion to control everything in his life, while obsessively assigning scriptural import to these practices to avoid scrutiny — it’s sad to me to think that the Wonderful Counselor probably grieves b/c He wants to set CJ free in that area. He probably would want to tell him (again, assuming this association is valid), “Shhhh … Be still and know that I am God. Surrender these worries to me and go to sleep.” (It’s a fairly well-known fact that he gets very little sleep at night and struggles with an auto-immune disease; I think fibromyalgia.)
In fact, I just wonder sometimes if, when we get to heaven, we’ll just spend time just sobbing in Jesus’ arms … when He takes the weight that we carried in this world off our shoulders and we experience unfettered freedom from sin, pain, guilt, etc. (not to mention our earthly bodies!). Sometimes I’ve even pictured someone I’m really angry at in Jesus’ warm embrace, sobbing away judgment under the influence of His love, legalism under the influence of His light yoke, bitterness under the influence of His lavish forgiveness … ya know?
So I just don’t think we should be spooked about looking at the impact of the past on the present — either in our own lives or others’. And I actually wouldn’t think it would be all that fair to only be willing to conclude that CJ is just a raging control freak by choice, when there’s the possibility that he’s not even aware of how pervasive his need for control is. He may be thinking, out of the integrity of his heart, that he is going the extra mile to be one who has been tested and approved by God and worthy of the calling he feels he’s received from God to lead Sovereign Grace Ministries. His own refusal to admit that his painful past experiences could ever weigh in our his current — at times downright bizarre — behavior.
Anyway, I just wanted to weigh in on this topic b/c I know, for myself, that as I read through the list of evaluative questions Kris posted in post 95, it evoked in me a renewed compassion for CJ. And I think that was part of her intent in posting it b/c she has clearly demonstrated that she would not encourage or condone fruitless speculation into someone’s life or character for sport. I just don’t see any need to throw a flag on the play by saying that the control we have identified an active force in Sovereign Grace Ministries — which dramatically increased with CJ’s rise to power — could be a natural corollary to the influence of growing up with an alcoholic parent.
March 7th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
There are many high profile teachers who I wish would bail out of some of there doctrinal positions. Maybe if Driscoll can ditch emergent heresy’s, Next we will see Tim Keller speaking at Brooklyn Tabernacle or Pastor Cymbala speak at Redeemer.
Maybe this is just a way for high profile people to dip there toe in the waters in a way that is acceptable for them .Driscoll also spoke at a conference with Pastor Tommy Nelson which is rare also.
Now if TD Jakes would correct his modalism and lean towards Hayford or Rev Jessie Lee Peterson….. and we can go on and on.
Sheep change their positions all the time but pastors stay stuck for decades and I don’t think its healthy.
March 7th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Hi Dennis,
I just crept away from my all night, Lord of the Ring, marathon with my girls. My husband even bowed out, as he is working on his Master’s degree….some kind of excuse. lol
Anway, I guess you are right if it is pure speculation. But the control and fear factors are just as plain as the nose on Pinnochio’s face. Even now, I still find myself afraid to say certain things, or still second guess myself on things that should just be naturally obvious.
Thanks for humbling yourself and sharing about your family. I am so sorry if I brought up a difficult subject. And like Claireon said, any dad that will sit and watch Anne of Green Gables with his daughter, has got to be pretty amazing! Thanks for all your input and sharing on the blog.
March 7th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Hey SGM Cas,
I really do not like to laugh at other peoples panic attacks but I gotta tell ya, I laughed out loud when you said you had yours during Finding Nemo. You sure you shouldn’t watch a little Jane Austen now and then? ;)
Considering that CJ has always been protective of the knowledge of his father’s alcoholism seems to factor into the image he projects of himself. Naturally we don’t want to be viewed as the victims of our parents mistakes anymore than the next guy. We know that the Lord can and does heal us of our wounds. Yet, oftentimes that healing somes as we acknowledge the problems that came as a result of the injury and the abuse….not by denying them.
Perhaps there’s a connection between how SGM handles criticism (denies it – shifts it onto something or someone else), and this trait of CJ’s?
March 7th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
SGM Cas,
I cry too over the shark. I absolutely love ‘Brother Bear”. I ball. It is so full of animism pentecostals would have a fit over watching it. : > )
March 7th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Btw Cas, I totally hope you don’t think I was making fun of you….it was mainly in the way you wrote about the episode. Sorry if I seemed insensitive.
I remember when I was young I totally freaked out when the Wicked Witch of the West filled up the screen while Dorothy was looking in the crystal ball!
When I said “crystal ball” that reminded me of something….
Did anyone run into people in SGM who dissed you for allowing your kids to read certain books? I know that happened to me. One SGM Mom criticized me for reading, among other things, the Chronicles of Narnia to my kids because “God didn’t make nymphs and fawns.”
March 7th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Claireon,
You said:
“Considering that CJ has always been protective of the knowledge of his father’s alcoholism seems to factor into the image he projects of himself. Naturally we don’t want to be viewed as the victims of our parents mistakes anymore than the next guy. We know that the Lord can and does heal us of our wounds. Yet, oftentimes that healing comes as we acknowledge the problems that came as a result of the injury and the abuse….not by denying them.
Perhaps there’s a connection between how SGM handles criticism (denies it – shifts it onto something or someone else), and this trait of CJ’s?”
If those within SGM are told that God is Sovereign and allows their past abuses for His purposes, and that their are no such things as victims, then why would one ever have to look at their past? …including CJ??? This is the deny, shift, part that you were referring to….typically shifting it back to our own sin, of course.
I agree with SGMCas in:
“So I think that sometimes recognizing someone’s past experiences and how they could be establishing the context for their current struggles/behaviors can go a long way in helping me to cultivate a heart of mercy and compassion for people. You’re actually less apt to judge harshly when you find out little glimpses into what has happened behind the scenes to mold the person into who they are.”
Even hearing about Dennis’ past, gave me more compassion and understanding for his view on certain things. And reading SGMCas’s testimony and many others, I have a bigger heart to try and see things from your shoes. I think by facing our pain and the pain of others, and not denying it, we are better able to receive healing. What do others think?
March 7th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Claireon,
“Did anyone run into people in SGM who dissed you for allowing your kids to read certain books? I know that happened to me. One SGM Mom criticized me for reading, among other things, the Chronicles of Narnia to my kids because “God didn’t make nymphs and fawns.”
How ridiculous! Don’t get me started…ok I have to go watch Lord of the Rings with my girls…..I know there is a wizard!! Don’t judge me, Claireon
….I also let my kids go trick or treating. OH NO!!! Lions and TIgers and Bears…Oh No!!!
March 7th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Claireon,
LOLOL! Girl, I’m still trying to recover from your suggestion. How could I not have foreseen setting myself up for a rebuttal like that??? Touche. I concede defeat graciously.
Now I really wish I wouldn’t have deleted my segue into a choice Jane Austen slam in my paragraph about how Hollywood can set you up to hate a character. See if I ever take the high road on this blog again.
That said, I would still opt for a full-blown panic attack over a Jane Austen flat-liner. At least it provides SOME scintillation. I’d much prefer a heart that’s beating at too quick a clip than one that sinks into an irrecoverable state of inactivity.
/\_____/\_______________/\_____________________/\_________________.
March 7th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
I totally agree with ya Freeda. In fact, there’s humility in being open and vulnerable, but there’s that risk you could be seen as human rather than super-human.
“She’s tolerable, I suppose, but not handsome enough to tempt me.”
March 7th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Claireon,
Your comment about Narnia is classic for people influenced by deep pentecostalism. They also find demons in everyone, or this person “has a spirit “of this or that. I suspect SGM gets all kinds of messed up people from very bad past charismatic teaching. Don’t take it to heart. It took me years to throw alot of that stuff out and it was only by seperation from it. SGM still hasn’t figured some of this out yet.
March 7th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
I wrote a pretty long response for the other section, sent it, and got a page closed pop up….Kris must have been closing it down even as I typed. I decided to take it as divine intervention :-D so I’ll not re-write it all again here, but just want to say, One Mom, I’d love to dialogue w/you privately if you truly want to, but don’t want you to feel obligated. Kris, would you please pass along my email addy to One Mom and/or hers to me? thanks! And, Philip, thanks for your response.
In regards to famlies impacted by alcoholism, the nurse’s observations, etc., yes, these observations are very often true. For those of you who didn’t catch this from my earlier posts, I am a counselor specializing in attachment and PTSD issues. Not a given of course, as there are many variables at play individually, but many,many children/adult children suffer from PTSD as a result of growing up in homes impacted by alcohol and/or abuse. The # 1 behavior I look for when determining if an individual may have PTSD? The need for absolute CONTROL. So, in my professional opinion, yes, absolutely a background of this nature could have residual behaviors on into adulthood, including the need for absolute control.
March 7th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Dang it! (Sorry. Is Christian cussing permitted here?) I really need to learn to hit the Refresh button before posting …
No, Claireon, OBVIOUSLY your post didn’t bother me at all! Being a teaser through and through, I’m rarely ever sensitive to it. Truth is, I just about guffawed! I still can’t believe that one made it below the radar — after making myself a moving target and odious in all of the JA (heh) lovers in the group … including the dudes, whom I completely relied on for moral support! I was ready to eschew emoticons myself after reading some of the tear-jerker posts on Jane Austen! (ExIntern and Refugee, major shout outs to both of you for your voices of reason amidst the waving hankies! How much do I owe you? *sinful snicker*)
March 7th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
SGM Cas,
If you don’t get familiar with Jane Austen you’re going to miss understanding all the P&P quotes I’ve been adding to my posts tonight!
Oh, but Cas….you just had to be there when Lizzie was touring Pemberley and down the grassy, tree lined carriage lane that leads toward the house walks Darcy with his horse whip and……now, there’s a panic attack for you!
“We must leave here at once!”
March 7th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
I just came up to use the bathroom, and I had to check again!!! You guys are all cracking me up….this is way better than watching Lord of the Rings…ok, I have to go back to my movie marathon!
My girls know what I am up to, and are telling me that I am an addict. lol
March 7th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
lol freeda,
you might want to stop the movie now and then to engage in some serious theological discussions (teenagers absolutely LOVE that kind of thing!) and if they appear bored when you share with them your observations of the humility that the Orcs lack and reach for the remote….just remember to stay in control and stay vigilant!
March 7th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Just for the record -as an observer -I think the alcoholic connection is spot on as the British say. You nailed it! My pals who I am concerned about in the SGM church
are perfect examples of what you point out One had an alcoholic -abusive parent and
that caused total chaos-leading to perfectionism.
Now I understand the connection–when you grow up like that you want order, order,
order. All the SGM rules and observations and everyone ‘telling you what to do’ constantly is an odd source of comfort.
My other friend had a parent who was married multiple times and abandoned their
Christian mom at a young age. More chaos and no father figure in the picture.
It all fits perfectly now. Keep this thread going–I promise you are onto something
significant. No wonder CJ tried to keep this hidden and isolate all of them. My
friend was finally getting help from a counselor when she joined than suddenly
submitted to ‘cutting off ties’ with the one help she was recieving. She just replaced
one dysfunctional parent for another from what I can observe–and its sad.
I am currently writing on the subject of spiritual abuse having experienced it. This
CJ Father figure is quite diabolical from all I read. I have watched the fruit of the
indoctrination for years–its all very passive -aggressive.
They are in love with CJ & SGM alright –I just wish it was Jesus!
March 7th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Claireon,
THAT’S what you’ve been quoting??? I’ve been like, “What the heck, Captain Random???”
I really figured you were just suffering from post-traumatic sarcasm syndrome. Ya know … that state of nonsensical nirvana you achieve after slamming your opponent in a battle of the wits (even if the victory is oh so ephemeral)? I just figured it would wear off by morning, and you’d be back to your reasonable, logical self again. But now that I know it’s merely the result of cracking open this Pandora’s Box, I won’t be holding my breath. (I may need the oxygen reserves during my next Disney-induced panic attack.)
March 7th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Claireon,
I tried what you said, and my younger more athletic teen threw the remote control against my head, and told me to go post on myblog!! That wicked little heart of hers, but hey, it worked…I’m back!
March 7th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
lol @ Captain Random
March 7th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
I had to laugh earlier at Dennis when he said, “When can be get back to bashing SGM?” lol
March 7th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Hey SGMCas,
I have that same panick attack thing you are talking about with things that jump out in movies. My girls think it is so funny, but it really is awful isn’t it? I remember once watching this scary movie that a friend had on at his house, my husband and I were there with another couple from church. There was this scene where this person was looking through a knot hole in this fence at the neighbor’s yard, and all of a sudden this eye pops up in the knot hole looking back. It took me 24 hours for my heart rate to go down. I am so hpyersensitive to that kind of stuff, and know not to even put myself in those situations. I don’t know why, I am that way, but I am. And I confess, I can not watch that scene in Finding Nemo. I put blankets over my head, and make humming noises with my fingers in my ears until it is over. My girls just think it is hysterical!!
March 7th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Ha! Great strategy, Freeda! Way to capitalize on that sinful heart of hers.
*Cas makes note to self: “Don a helmet first before intentionally provoking micro sinners to anger for selfish gain.”*
———————–
Wait a minute … Hold UP! I actually remembered this time to hit the Refresh button before submitting my comment and can hardly believe my eyes. So, Freeda, are you sharing with the class that you, TOO, found that scene in Finding Nemo a bit jolting???
Sooo … How did it make you feel when Claireon teased me for my hypersensitivity? Did that strike a discordant chord in your heart as well?
*Cas points a disheartened Freeda in Claireon’s direction to do her dirty work and grabs a bowl of chips. Eggggcellent.*
March 7th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
So, what is this “Loving Pursuit” stuff all about anyway?
One of the new posters here shared how Josh Harris saw them somewhere (in a coffee shop I think) and talked to them with an expression of pity on his face, or something like that, just because he was aware that they had left the church.
Then others talk about being shunned or distanced by SGM’ers because they aren’t in the church anymore. The pattern seems to be to focus on some problem or “character fault” of the person who left as evidence of them not having been suitable material for SGM in the first place. “Guess they’re just not one of us.”
With all the emphasis on being in meetings all the time, and SGM being the place where you can be sin-free while focusing on your sin, it seems perfectly understandable to me that when people “get out”, they may act out for a while before they realize that God still loves them. When people leave SGM, no doubt they will be filled with all sorts of doubts and fears about their relationship with God for a while until they figure out the truth. But until that happens they’ll probably be vulnerable and thats why the squad of loving and pursuing people are sent out. After all, how can anyone really expect to live a gospel centered life apart from attending SGM meetings?
March 7th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Don’t they use the movie “Finding Nemo” to train the people that go out and loving pursue the ones that left SGM? I bet they do
March 7th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
Cas,
in #115 you wrote of your behavior during stress-inducing moments:
“I’ve just learned that’s part and parcel with the past I had, where I lived with a continual fear of surprise attack by a sadistically evil woman.”
Speaking soberly, if you are still having reactions like this, I’d seek some counseling with someone who has a bona-fide deliverance ministry. It’s possible the enemy is still hanging on to you, having gotten some hooks in via traumatic fear events in your past.
I’m quite serious about this – it’s possible you need to experience some more freedom in Christ. The enemy loves to attack us via the fear “door”, and wants to convince us that certain things will be with us our whole lives. He had me convinced for years that a certain sin pattern in me was unchangeable, till God delivered me during a prayer session.
March 7th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Yes, SGMCas, and I can’t watch Old Yellow, because the dog dies, and I can’t watch Bambi, because the mom dies. But those jumping out scenes…..they are just simply awful! But sitting through another SGM sermon, I would have to use some of your strategies to get through it. My favorite was looking into the eyes of the parents who got called to go and get their unruley child from CM.
But Claireon, you need to go lightly on us more sensitive types. Underneath our erractic reflexes lies much courage and endurance….why else would we have stayed in that place for so long!!! My all time favorite line on this blog…
Would someone take his chisel and give that guy a bowl of chips!!
March 7th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Hi Reformed Opinion,
I must have missed your post. I apologize for not responding, and getting all caught up in the joking around. Ok, on to more serious matters. Welcome to this thread and discussion.
You said:
” I think the alcoholic connection is spot on as the British say. You nailed it! My pals who I am concerned about in the SGM church
are perfect examples of what you point out One had an alcoholic -abusive parent and
that caused total chaos-leading to perfectionism.
Now I understand the connection–when you grow up like that you want order, order,
order. All the SGM rules and observations and everyone ‘telling you what to do’ constantly is an odd source of comfort.”
So you do think that there is something to the whole alcoholic past link? I was interested in what you had to say. I hope that others might be able to share, but I recognize the need to be sensitive to those that this might be a little too close to home.
I wonder why this has never come up before. It would be consistent with the “don’t talk rule” that is just understood within certain alcoholic families. Any thoughts?
March 8th, 2008 at 12:02 am
Don,
Hmm. That’s really interesting. Ya know (here I go again) … One time, during my PDI early days, a man came into our church with a proven prophetic gift. (I forget his name now.) During this special service, he prophesied some things over people that were so specific, he would have had to be dead on or dead wrong. Well, he called out a “word of knowledge” where he said there was someone in the room who had been locked in a closet as a form of punishment and struggled with a fear of authority and claustrophobia.
Afterwards, there was the mother of all pregnant pauses as the crowd waited for someone to raise their hand. Meanwhile, my heart was racing, and I felt my body temp raise about 10 degrees. Finally, my husband, who was the only person in the room who knew this piece of my history, gently tapped my shoulder to urge me to raise my hand. Even though I was absolutely mortified at the thought of revealing this part of my past to my new church, I reluctantly and ever so slightly raised my hand. Long story short, he came over to me, prayed and broke the fear of tight spaces over me, and gave me a prophetic word about being a writer and how God would one day use my writing to deliver others (go figger).
We were living in a very small house at the time with a matchbox of a master bedroom … if you could have even called it that. It was so small, you had to stand off to the side of a drawer to keep from bumping up against the bed. And it was really difficult to sleep in there b/c I kept having this feeling the walls were closing in. I had also had dreams for years about walls closing in on me or tunnels crashing down around me. Suffice to say, it was a gripping and irrational fear, but I couldn’t talk myself through it or out of it. And I’d have to close my eyes as soon as I got into bed to keep from seeing how close the walls were to me.
But I went home that night, and it was like waking up from a bad dream. All I can say is it was gone. And I’ve never felt it since. I don’t even think twice now about getting into an elevator. In fact, I’ve grown so accustomed to NOT being claustrophobic, I forgot that I was.
The funny thing is I sort of recoiled when I first read your post, having experienced the joys of charismaniac abuse before coming to SGM (although I promise you I’m NOT Kris’s alter ego, even though that is one more uncanny parallel in our stories). But then I remembered how God so unexpectedly just sovereignly and miraculously broke that chain asunder.
So yeah, I’d sign up for that. The trick would probably be finding a credible Christian professional who’s gifted in that. I’m sure anyone who sees curses and demons behind every rock of suffering would have a veritable heyday with someone from my past (obviously, not something I’m interested in). But I know that’s not what you’re talking about; I’ve just seen ministries like that.
Anyway, thanks for the suggestion, Don!
Claireon,
You wrote,
This is very true. I was hospitalized for five days shortly after leaving Sovereign Grace for some odd neurological tics, One Sovereign Grace pastor’s wife reached out to me while I was in the hospital and told me that she thought that it was probably just connected with not being under the “covering of a local church” yet. I told her I thought that theory was bunk.
And another SGM pastor’s wife from my previous church called me at the hospital and asked me, while I was drugged out on Ativan, what I thought God was speaking to me through this trial. She had to repeat the question b/c at first I thought I just understood what she said as I tried to cut through my drug-induced fog. But when I realized that she was asking exactly what I thought, I had no idea how to answer her. I was just like, “Uhh … I dunno. I’m really just trying to get out of this hospital.” I’m sure I confirmed her worst fears about how a former SGMer’s spirit must dim without the resilient glow of their radiant glory.
I don’t want to seem like I’m slamming these people, even if I am engaging in scar-casm. It WAS sweet of them to call me. However, it was just weird how it SEEMED like they saw an opportunity to “sow a seed” while I was weak and my defenses were down. Like I was supposed to think that I was having these symptoms b/c I left Sovereign Grace (and, thus, the protection of their outstretched wing) and that I was supposed to be asking God what He was speaking through this … or why He was allowing this to happen.
The second pastor’s wife never came right out and said that she thought it was a result of sin or that my body was just sorta crumbling under the strain of walking away from all of the grace Sovereign GRACE Ministries afforded me access to. But the lack of what would be considered “normal,” empathetic conversation (such as “I’m sorry you’re going through this” or “Is there anything I can do to help?” or just about anything other than a forced, stilted attempt at “biblical fellowship”) added to this overall sense that there was some kind of back-handed comfort in their words.
But again, Claireon, you just HAD to go there with the Nemo analysis! VERY funny. It really can be quite jolting when a zealous SGMer in hot “pursuit” sneaks up on you!
March 8th, 2008 at 12:05 am
So I go out to dinner with my family, and you guys had a veritable party while I was gone. Where to start??
SGM Casualty, your comment #115 contained many gems. The entire time we were out tonight, I just kept on thinking about the whole Seedge thing. Like you said, I would never want to speculate for sport about someone’s deeply personal pain. That’s not my point at all, in bringing some of these things into the conversation. Rather, I would agree with you when you said,
And then there was this:
You summed up my thoughts quite well. I really appreciate it! :-)
————————
Sonya,
Have you ever shared any of your own story? I’d be curious to hear about your journey out of Pentecostalism, if you ever feel like sharing.
————————
And, everybody -
Will you join me in welcoming “reformed opinion” (comment #131)? :-) His comment languished in moderation and is in danger of getting lost in the shuffle. So if you would, please take a moment and read what he wrote. Thanks!
————————
exinternsmom -
Sorry about your lost comment! I will get to looking for One Mom’s email address and pass your info on to her.
I think your observation about an abuse victim’s need for control is exactly right. In my extended family, there was a relative who was often randomly abusive to his children. Until he reached older age, he had major anger problems and would fly into unpredictable rages and take out his wrath on whichever one of his children was nearby when the storm hit. Every one of these children grew up to have MAJOR issues with needing to control their environment and, to the best of their ability, all the other people in their lives. They are all, in one way or another, extremely successful people, but they have unwittingly inflicted pain on the people who share their lives.
March 8th, 2008 at 12:27 am
Hi Ref-O,
Just so you know, when you post here for the first time, your post goes into a moderation queue. It looks on your screen like it’s live, but it doesn’t actually go live until the moderator hits the button. (She’s very powerful like that. heh)
Anyway, welcome to the blog and thank you for sharing your … well, reformed opinion! Very interesting insights. And, yes, I’m glad Freeda and Kris persevered in pressing through the inherent discomfort of this topic.
You wrote,
Even though I didn’t grow up with an alcoholic (though I did grow up w/ a lot of abuse, as I’ve mentioned in other posts), I can relate to this. For me, I had become quite the bully in my teen years in my efforts to regain my sense of power however I could. When I became a Christian, I had a tremendous amount of guilt about how I abused others, especially those in school I deemed “weak.”
So I think I was drawn to churches that had this sense of order and family feel. Even the idea of living by all these rules (with the promise that they would help me achieve the God-honoring walk that I so desperately wanted), just seemed so family-like b/c the people “enforcing” them seemed genuinely caring. Having grown up w/o family, this was sort of fascinating to me.
On a deeper level, I lived with this fear that I would/could ever revert to the cruel, angry dictator I had become, especially when I got pregnant with my first child. So this sense of structure and order made me feel protected from my self, if that makes sense. No one in my family had ever been “successful” in the parenting area, so I felt so desperate to learn how it was done. And Sovereign Grace just seemed to have it down to a system: Do these things with your children, and they’ll be obedient, healthy, respectful little bundles of blessing one day. Do these things in your marriage and you’ll live in wedded bliss, with a selfless leader for a husband and submissive, honoring wife who always had dinner ready by 6:00. It all seemed culturally odd but safe … like if I just did all of these things that they’re saying, I could ultimately control my future.
Obviously, I’ve detailed more than enough how those promises didn’t exactly pan out. But I thought I’d throw in my $.02 on how even people who weren’t from alcoholic homes but just highly (deep, cleansing breath for all you SGMers reading …) dysfunctional homes can be lured by this false sense of security.
User beware: You pay a high price when you cash in your inheritance for a stinkin’ bowl of spiritual stew, when God’s prepared a feast for your full enjoyment.
March 8th, 2008 at 1:19 am
I remember one friend of mine during my CLC days in the early to mid 90′s give his opinion on why there was a significant larger number of single women vs. single men at CLC. One reason he said was that Mahaney had a prophetic type of teaching and the natural compliment to that is someone with the gift of mercy which he felt more women possessed this gift than men.
He also commented that Mahaney himself described himself as in his early 20′s going on something like 13 when he was married. Thus he tended to think of all single men as being immature like he was before he was married. That kind of thinking and the teaching it would produce could drive away a number of single men and partially cause this imbalance in numbers..
Additionally, he said if you compared Mahaney’s Mother’s Day teaching vs. his Father’s Day teaching there would be quite a difference. His teaching on Mother’s Day showed a lot more respect and appreciation of the function of a mother than what he taught about fathers on Father’s day. This bias would drive away men including single men. Mahaney having an alcoholic father would explain why he had such a bias against fathers compared to mothers. Again this was a person’s observation in the 90′s and Mahaney may have changed
With Mahaney growing up with an alcoholic father one should wonder if this experience has still distorted Mahaney’s view of the Father Heart of God. I am surprised no one has mentioned this so far. Perhaps Mahaney’s experience with an alcoholic father is what has driven him to lead SG to over emphasize the Cross and how sinfult people are etc. Kris was commenting earlier how so much of SG’s music has become “wrist cutting” music. Mahaney’s experience with an alcoholic father, if he hasn’t sufficiently healed from it, may be driving this.
Someone posted not too long ago about SG having a supposed shift in thinking and recommended people listen to a message Mahaney delivered to CLC. In this message Mahaney admitted that SG hadn’t done a good job of teaching about God’s adoption of us. Mahaney’s past may have been what drove this?
Just some things to think about.
March 8th, 2008 at 1:44 am
# 146 – Steve – “With Mahaney growing up with an alcoholic father one should wonder if this experience has still distorted Mahaney’s view of the Father Heart of God. I am surprised no one has mentioned this so far”
Steve, that’s really interesting you say that. I didn’t know about Mahaney’s alcoholic father and the background but I did suspect that something had gone on, because of Mahaney’s vehement and at times sarcastic derision of any teaching in the Bible (namely the Song of Songs) that suggests we should have an intimate relationship with our Father God. Likewise I have never NEVER heard any SG teaching from Romans on; “Abba! Father!”. That would certainly explain a lot.
But what I find sad is that you mention the difference between Mahaney’s Mothers Day and Father’s Day teaching – yet for me one of the intolerable things about SGM is their oppression of women. They have taken Wayne Grudem/John Piper’s “Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” book and exalted it to a position of absolute unquestionable primacy (even over the ministry and Person of the Holy Spirit – check books like Joshua Harris’s “Stop Dating the Church).
I’ve seen it loads of times in nursing and counselling – the abused becomes the abuser. Hence why in my time in SGM I would watch care group after care group while the senior pastor would sit on his backside and turn to his (then pregnant wife) and say; “Dear – would you go and make coffee for everyone?!”. Grrr
– mind you, I must be cautious! I think my SGM experience has turned me mildly feminist! ;)
But thanks Steve – that explains a lot and helps me connect the dots in my mind re: Mahaney.
March 8th, 2008 at 7:45 am
My goodness!!! I go away for 12 hours and find I can’t catch up on all the comments!!
“Captain Random”? “Using LOTR to teach your kids about humility”…too much fun, too little time to comment.
SGM Cas — you really truly weren’t catching all the Austen comments?? My “vexed” and “smelling salts” comments were lost on you? And my comment about Darcy in a wet shirt (same scene that Claireon refers to in #128)???
Sadly, Cas, I don’t believe you: You gave away your true, inner Austenism when you wrote this sentence earlier:
“I’d much prefer a heart that’s beating at too quick a clip than one that sinks into an irrecoverable state of inactivity.”
That’s TOTAL Austen-speak!!! And for the record, not all Austen lovers “wave hankies.” I’m not a cryer by any means; I’m a thinker and enjoy the pathos…And Alan Rickman saving damsels in distress….hawt, hawt, hawt!
Sorry Kris….hehehe!
Anyway, back to the discussion. I see Dennis’ side and Kris’ side on the alcohol discussion. I’m not sure what the end result and gain is of talking about a person’s childhood, although, as SGM Cas said, it might be worse to just assume that a person is a control freak in a vacuum.
Having said that, I do know that my former friend in SGM comes from a background that fits right into this scenario. So again, as I said yesterday, I think some SGers have a fear that we are right — they NEED this place of structure and control to be the right way to live.
SGM Cas, in speaking of anxiety, I have a close family member with a panic disorder, so what you describe with Nemo is familiar behavior to me. My SGM friend didn’t know about this family member before making the pronouncement that all anxiety was sin and that people shouldn’t take meds for it. She only said that to me once!!
March 8th, 2008 at 8:18 am
Steve,
Very insightful post. This paragraph especially jumped out at me:
I honestly never made all of those connections, but I think they can be made and follow a logical if-then continuum. I have questioned a lot (both when I was in Soveriegn Grace and here on the blog) why there was never any teaching on the Father’s love. It was a bizarre omission since it’s clearly the centrifugal force of the entire gospel message. In fact, as soon as Seedge became intoxicated with the teaching on the cross (which, as I’ve said before, bothered me b/c of the glaring deletions, such as the Father’s love and the resurrection), the only reference to the Father was in the context of His wrath.
Yes, Jesus satisfied the Father’s wrath. I’m not denying that. What an amazing gift! He is altogether holy and righteous and has angels and seraphim whose sole job description is to declare His holiness. What an awesome, glorious Father!
BUT He sent His Son, Jesus, to the cross to satisfy His holy wrath to bring us near so that we can enjoy fellowship with Him. The veil has been torn in two. We don’t enter His presence by the blood of animal sacrifices. We come by the blood of His Son. And according to the writer of Hebrews, He wants us to draw near with confidence:
But while God beckons us to COME to Him — b/c of what His Son accomplished on the cross) — Seedge wants people to STAY at the CROSS. How baffling is that??? I see in Scripture that the cross is a means to an end, and the end is unfettered fellowship with the full Godhead, no holds barred. To me, THAT’S what makes the gospel so glorious!
Seedge, on the other hand, says over and over, “We will never move on from the cross!” And the last time I heard him scream this, I wanted to scream back — in that signature moment of silence before He started preaching again — “Why not??? JESUS DID!!!”
(You will be happy to know, however, that I didn’t. I was never subjected to a discipline process b/c of outbursts of anger — righteous or unrighteous — in a church service. heh.)
But seriously. He so proudly says over and over that he will never move on from the cross. He preaches Jesus’ death from every possible morbid angle. But then he stops there — except, of course, to apply the work of the cross to our ongoing obsession with sin. Is it any wonder Sovereign Grace Ministries is weak in the area of evangelism? I mean, really. How many of the lost are going to be flooding SGM churches sign up for that?
As our young Hippie mentioned yesterday (and I really hope you didn’t feel ganged up on us, Hipster!), Seedge says that we should keep one eye on our sin and the other on the cross. That is one of his favorite lines. And he says it with such authority and sincerity, it is hard to step back and question the principle. But I say he has COMPLETELY missed the point of the cross with a statement like that. And, in fact, I will even go so far as to say that this exhortation, which I heard again and again, flies in the face of the biblical command to keep both eyes fixed squarely on Jesus. (Heb 12:2: “Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”)
Even Jesus was focused on the “joy set before him,” not the cross. He endured the cross, despised its shame. But He’s now at the right hand of the throne of God — NOT on the cross! As I’ve said before, it was so important that we understand this risen Savior that He gave the apostle John a divine revelation of Heaven and a glimpse into what worship looks like there. That’s why one of my favorite chapters of the Bible is Rev. 5. The Bible could have concluded with all of the epistles to the churches, so that we would have practical application for how to flesh out this glorious gospel in the context of the church. But clearly He wanted us to see what keeping our eyes on Jesus looked like; He wanted us to get a picture of where He is rightly positioned now: on the throne, not the cross!
Deep breath.
Circling back around to Steve’s post, I feel for CJ that he grew up with an alcoholic father. I really do. And I do think it provides insight into his obsessions that have (I believe) engendered the cult-like practices of SGM. But, at the same time, I believe he has a responsibility to go before God and deal with the roots of whatever is driving these obsessive cravings for control, which (again, this is just what I believe …) usurps God’s role and His authority in members’ lives and keeps him on a pedestal that he claims to reject but does so little to eschew.
I also believe that the men surrounding CJ, who CJ has given permission to speak into his life (and I know that he has given men permission to do this), have a responsibility to man up and look inside the lion’s mouth and “ask the difficult questions,” like they boast they are committed to doing. And if they don’t, b/c of fear of man — and, more specifically, fear of winding up like Larry (having all of the sins and struggles they’ve opened up about used as grounds for a disciplinary ousting process) — they will have to give an account before God for fearing man more than God.
But God’s people in Sovereign Grace Ministries shouldn’t have to suffer a watered down, diluted, distorted gospel that has had so much of the sweet nectar siphoned out of it b/c its fearless leader has issues he has (seemingly, judging by the fruit of the ministry) not dealt with. That’s where I believe that, although the past provides a context for our current sinful behavior and wayward proclivities, it’s not an excuse for sin. It gives me compassion for CJ, but I still find his practices deplorable, inexcusable, and more indicative of a cult leader than a “a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth” (2 Tim 2:15).
March 8th, 2008 at 8:48 am
SG Cas,
Amen and Amen to everything you said regarding God’s love for us, Christ enduring the cross for the joy set before Him, and in your reaction to CJ saying, “We will never move on from the cross!!”
Although I’m disappointed you DIDN’T stand up and scream, “Why not, JESUS DID!!!”
lol
I’m so glad I’m in a church that gets all those points!