We’ve had some fascinating discussions taking place over at the previous post, “Fear and Loathing in my ‘In’ Box.” But the “comments” section there is nearing 500 responses and is probably a pain to load for those working without a high-speed connection. So I decided we could continue the discussion here.
Feel free to share anything here that you wish, but some topics to consider addressing might be:
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Why do so many Sovereign Grace Ministries ex-members still express fear when discussing their SGM experiences? After all, what could they possibly have to be afraid of?
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As our commenter “Freeda Think” said, it might be interesting to discuss SGM’s use of fear and control. Do you think these are tactics deliberately employed? Perhaps some of you might want to do a little research and share what you discover. How would a Christian ministry reach a point where its people are afraid of leaving said ministry? Is fear ever a mark of a healthy or “normal” ministry?
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Speaking of “normal” ministries…something that came up in our last discussion was the use of the “C” word (“CULT”) as it applies to Sovereign Grace Ministries. Quite some time ago, in this post, I asked people to weigh in on what makes a cult. Can a ministry proclaim the God and the Gospel of the Bible and yet still become a “cult” through their use of spiritual abuse and “cult-like methodologies”? [As a personal disclaimer here, I have an exceedingly difficult time with the use of this term for SGM! At the root of my discomfort is how I feel about the many dear Sovereign Grace people I know. I simply cannot think of them - individually - as "cult members"!] Yet several ex-SGM folks who post regularly here, and who have come across as very thoughtful, well-balanced, and educated, have in recent days suggested that in their opinions, SGM is indeed a “cult.” So perhaps we could discuss whether this term (“cult”) is simply too inflammatory, too pejorative, and too condemning to use for a “family of churches” that preach the Word of God.
All right, people. It’s time to get to work. Please join me in the discussion by posting a comment below.
I never got the "meeting" thing, either. 
March 8th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Lynn,
You so slanderously wrote of me,
This is therapeutic poppycock! Inner Austenism. Well, I nevah in awl mah daaaays ever ded heaaar ah such malicioussss ACcuSAAAtions. You take it back dis INstant, Lyyynn! You heeeeear me??? Dis IIIINstant!
Disclaimer: I realize JA didn’t write Southern historical fiction (and I can only assume dissing the Southern “classics” like Gone with the Wind would only roil the hornet’s nest afresh). But I think we can probably all agree that NO ONE does indignant quite like a bona fide belle!
Anyway, although I do unabashedly enjoy a love affair with the English language (I’ll give you that), there were plenty of REAL writers, who wrote about REAL people, for me to draw my inspiration from, NOT the likes of Jane Austen.
*Cas dons flame-resistant pajamas and arms herself with a fire extinguisher.*
Poor Mrs. D. (or whatever your name might be today). Who woulda thought it even possible, amidst this sea of posts, to make such a memorable ripple upon entrance? Kudos to you, my new friend!
March 8th, 2008 at 9:13 am
SGM Cas,
I’m rolling with laugther at your southern draaaaaawl and the image of you in flameproof jammies ready for a girl fight!!!
“Theraputic poppycock”! You’re quick with the clever wit. In all seriousness, the more I “talk” to you, the harder it is for me to comprehend that you ever were involved in SGM!! (And I mean that in the best way possible, of course!)
Yes, Ms. Bennet-Darcy could not have forseen the ruckus she’d create…but comic relief is SOOO necessary in a forum like this.
As an aside, who are your favorite authors (for pleasure reading)? I haven’t read a good book in YEARS (yeah, I need to hand my English degree back in for sure)!
Sorry Kris, I could take this off line, but it’s just a quick question…(how do you do the sheepish emoticon??)
March 8th, 2008 at 9:16 am
SGM Cas,
It seems that Kris must be doing something OTHER than moderating this blog. The nerve! Like she has family, laundry, shopping, cleaning, or anything else more important to take care of then US!!!
March 8th, 2008 at 9:32 am
I am still here. I was highly entertained by the quotes and banter last night. Thank you! I’ve needed more laughter than I’ve been getting. Glad I could make such an impression on you all. ;)
I have more questions, but I’ll have to come back. But, quick and general, for those of you who have “recovered,” what did you do and how did God guide you to get there? I’d love to be on the other side of this….two years sounds like a long time.
March 8th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Mrs. D,
Now that things have slowed down a bit, I would like to say WELCOME to you! Last night I was so far behind, that I didn’t think I would ever catch up!
March 8th, 2008 at 9:52 am
Cas,
Just a quick comment: You crack me up!
Shark scene
/\_____/\_______________/\_____________________/\_________________JA
March 8th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Dan
Mahaney having an alcoholic father has been shared recently here on this blog. Interestingly, it something I don’t ever recall him sharing going back even to the TAG days. Does anyone on here ever recall his sharing about this? Mahaney seems to be transparent and open about a lot of things in his life. I wonder why he didn’t share on this?
You also said:
I have been away from SG for quite a while. From what you say and from what others have posted it appears that SG has changed on their view towards women. Back in the early 90′s it seemed like they were partial towards women since women many times are more submissive than men. Now it appears they have gone the other way. I will have to check out what the sources your mentioned.
SG Casualty:
I enjoyed reading your recent comments on this. They were very thought provoking.
It so much appears that the whole SG Ministry goes the way that Mahaney thinks. It is sad that one man who appears to be leading the whole show is leading due to a skewed view of God caused by his having an alcoholic father. As I said before, I think this is the problem with having one dominating leader when the other leaders don’t seem to have the ability to check and question the direction he is taking the ministry.
What is interesting is that I don’t recall Mahaney being as focused on the cross and man’s sinfulness while forgetting the Father hear of God. It seems as if he has moved in that direction vs. having always been there. Moving this way isn’t what one would expect as they mature as a Christian.
March 8th, 2008 at 10:09 am
Hi Steve,
The Bible tells us to honor our mother and father. Some believe that they should not be telling others of their parents sins, for that would be dishonoring to them. That could be one possibility. Nobody on this blog knows who I am, so they do not know who my parents are. I am free to share that my parents were alcoholics because it would not dishonor them. I am not saying that is C J’s reason, but I have heard that reasoning before, and it may apply to him. I do not know.
March 8th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Hey Guys!
Do we have actual confirmation that CJ’s father was an alcohlic? When we first started discussing this…I had said that “i had heard” but was not sure if this was gossip. This friend who was a long time pilgrim in SGM told me that over 80% of the apostolic team came from some type of alcoholic background. Now, being that I was not there that long…..I do not know. So to avoid gossip, can someone who truly knows the facts, please confirm if this is true before we do go off on a tangent. Either way, the facts of control and fear are obvious to many of us, now where they originate from……I dunno!!???
March 8th, 2008 at 10:44 am
One Mom,
Yes, that’s it exactly! Now you’re getting it. Thank you for breaking it down into bite-sized pieces for the others. That was so mom-like of you.
Lynn,
I take your comment about bearing no resemblance of one who has been in SGM as a compliment. Much obliged to ya, ma’am.
As far as writers go, my favorites are oftentimes the short story writers, and I am especially a sucker for a story with a surprise ending. With that in mind, O. Henry, Ambrose Bierce, and Edgar Alan Poe are among my favs. Ambrose Bierce’s short story “An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge” was brilliant, as was his Devil’s Dictionary. Don’t let the name of the dictionary scare you home schoolers; it’s just cynicism/sarcasm at its finest. I would have my students call out words they wanted me to look up and read them to the class. Hysterically funny. If you enjoy Claireon humor, you’ll love Ambrose Bierce. heh heh
But one Christian fiction writer I just love is Randy Alcorn. I used his Deadline books in all of my classes. He’s amazing at character development and use of imagery. You feel like you’re right there through each scene of this spellbinding story.
Ah, my soul has been cleansed of all thoughts JA.
Mrs. D,
Well, I received professional help sorting out my issues with Sovereign Grace, but I had some pretty serious issues from the past and my estranged husband that fishtailed with my SGM experience. And it was a service that was extended to me after getting an injunction b/c my estranged husband had become violent. Talk about God being sovereign; his plunge off the deep end made the way for me to get the help I would have never been able to afford. (And now he’s finally getting help from a great Christian counselor, too. I see change. God is good.)
But, as I said in one post that I would never be able to find again, this site has helped me more in really working through issues/questions specific to my Sovereign Grace experience than even my years in counseling. There’s something about reading the accounts of people who’ve walked a mile in your Birkenstocks, ya know (not that I wear Birkenstocks, mind you)?
Steve,
Thank you for your kind words. I always look forward to reading your line-upon-line posts.
From what I recall you left Sovereign Grace in the early 90s. That was before we started entering into cross worship and obsession with “indwelling sin.” And, no, moving away from intimacy with the Lord is not what one would expect as one matures. Neither would redefining the gospel. That’s exactly what suggests to me an ulterior agenda, whether Seedge is consciously aware of it or not.
Freeda,
I heard it from several different sources (one very reliable). But we’ll never find reference to it in any Sovereign Grace-sanctioned materials, like his new Leadership Interview Series podcast.
So I think it’s a good thing to say, “If it’s indeed true that CJ grew up with an alcoholic parent …” just to be safe. Even though I never got the impression this was a big, huge secret … just something he doesn’t talk about b/c, in his mind, any recognition of past pain/abuse would be tantamount to heresy.
March 8th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Why are we even discussing this? There are plenty of other sins of the fathers besides alcoholism. Was C J’s father a liar, a cheat, an adulterer, emotionally or physically abusive, a gambling addict, or 1000 other sinful habits? , What exactly is the point here? Are we going to judge and analyze C J’s ministry faults based on what we think are his reactions to his father’s sins? I think this whole discussion is totally bogus and inappropriate.
Would any of you like to go to a public blog and see your parents sins being discussed by a bunch of people who did not know you or them personally, and then analyzing you and judging according to your parents sins? Getting to the root is one thing, but airing the parents dirty laundry is quite another matter all together. This alcoholism discussion needs to be put back in the sewage where it came from.
March 8th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Dennis
As other people have said, we are commenting on Mahaney’s father just because we see a connection between how Mahaney now acts and what many people say happens to children of alcoholics.
This is certainly explaining a lot.
I can certainly understand wanting to honor your parents but with this connection between Mahaney’s past and current actions I think it is worth discussing. We aren’t stating his dad’s name; we are just talking about him as Mahaney’s dad.
March 8th, 2008 at 11:21 am
In answer to people’s question about who stated that Mahaney was the son of an alcoholic, here is what Kris stated in post 90 above:
I am sure she has this information from a good source.
March 8th, 2008 at 11:29 am
Dennis,
With all due respect, I don’t think it’s really all that appropriate for you to continually insist on what you think should be the “allowed” direction of a thread since you’re not the blog moderator. You’ve made your appeal several times now, and we’ve respectfully disagreed with your assessment/moderation attempt. If you’re not comfortable with it, you don’t have to participate. But I don’t think it’s fair to basically accuse the rest of us of Inside Edition-type trash talk either.
You’ve made your point. Please just let it go. This blog switches directions in a moment’s notice. I’m sure by the day’s end there will be some other “SGM bashing” you can participate in.
March 8th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Dennis,
While we can understand this being a sensitive topic for some, we certainly are not trying to examine your involvement with SGM, but rather CJ’s and his documented leadership. While I do not think it is at all profitable to judge the effects of having had alcoholic parents uncharitably, I do think that we should be able to discuss it within the framework of SGM leadership and the imbalances (abuses) we all see. Rather than dismiss the topic altogether as completely irrelevant, perhaps you could offer some insight?
March 8th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Hi Steve,
We have identified one single individual in C J’s father. We do not need to name him because we have already given his exact identity as being C J’s father. Identifying him is the same as naming him.
And as I asked earlier, why the focus on children of alcoholics? What about the children of liars? Or the children of the verbally abusive? Was C J’s father proud, arrogant, intimidating, angry, controlling, etc etc? How much does the Bible discuss the sin of drunkeness? In most of the list of sins that disqualify from entering the Kingdom of God, I do not see this specific sin even mentioned. So why all this focus on C J’s father being an alcoholic? We do not even know if that is the truth in the first place? And even if it is, C J’s reaction to that situation is still pure speculation and not based on fact whatsoever. It is nothing more that assumptive reasoning and is therefor a colossal waste of time. Why not look at all of this from a Biblical perspective?
March 8th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Dennis,
You said,
1 Cor 6:9–10: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
It’s definitely a “disqualifying’ sin. And its impact on children’s lives is significant, oftentimes well into adulthood. It doesn’t define those who dealt with it, but it does provide a possible context for current struggles.
March 8th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Hi SGM Cas,
I am not disallowing this discussion. As you pointed out , I am not the moderater here.
I am making an appeal as to the sensitivity and practicality of this discussion. Is it appropiate? Is it beneficial? Is it productive? Is it based on fact or conjecture? Is it based on, and in agreement with Biblical principles?
So why are you now trying to squelch my rebuke? You are not the moderator here either, so please practice what you are preaching. I will not let it go until Kris tells me that is her directive to me.. In the meantiime, I will post my disgreements whenever I so feel the need to.
March 8th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Oops. Qquote from Dennis got truncated. Should have read:
March 8th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Dennis,
I’m stating my opinion that I don’t think it’s appropriate for you to try to moderate the direction of a thread (now on multiple occasions) since you’re not a moderator. I’m not appealing that others follow my proposed direction like you are (to wit, steer clear of this discussion that the moderator herself started). I’m disagreeing with your assessment that we’re just scraping the bottom of the ocean floor by talking about the possible connection between an obsessive need to control others and growing up with an alcoholic. Disagreement is well within the realm of active, loving participation; trying to moderate or “rebuke” us isn’t, imho.
March 8th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Hi SGM Cas,
The word drunkard(s) is found only in 1 Cor 5 and 6. And there is no mention on how it effects the children. Do we know for an absolute 100% fact that C J’s father was an alcoholic? Do we know 100% how it may or may not have affected C J? What about his father’s other sins? This discussion is fruitless and I will continue to speak my objections until the moderator says for me to stop. Right now, I believe I am expressing a Godly response from the Holy Spirit, and I belive this assumptive reasoning is bordering on sin.
March 8th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Dennis,
You said you didn’t think drunkenness was a sin that disqualified someone from the Kingdom of God. I gave you a scripture that proves otherwise. The sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is only mentioned once, but I wouldn’t try that one.
My point is I don’t think it really matters how many times the Bible says that something is prohibited — and even warns, in no uncertain terms, that those who practice these things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. It says it;.so that’s pretty much the end of it.
March 8th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Hi, all…
Over the past 3 months, I’ve received several emails (interestingly, mostly NON-anonymous emails) from different folks, ex-SGM people, who have independently stated, in one way or another, that they believe CJ’s dad’s alcoholism is a significant yet undisclosed factor in SGM’s culture.
I truly do not intend to bring up this subject in a “gossipy” way. But because I think just about all of us would agree that CJ is the pivotal person at SGM – the one who spearheads its culture, decides what doctrines will be emphasized, demands submission and obedience to “authority,” and most importantly, still maintains an iron grip over all other leaders’ psyches – I believe that understanding CJ is key to understanding SGM’s particular issues. One of our commenters said awhile back that CJ is on some spiritual journey, and Sovereign Grace Ministries just hapens to be along for the ride as he is influenced by one book and then another. I believe that is true.
Coming to understand what might drive CJ is, in my opinion, “part of the solution.” If there is anything that would shed light on CJ’s background, that information would also be “part of the solution.” CJ’s entire preaching style is based upon carrying people along in a sea of his emotions. He also constantly holds himself and his family up as examples to be imitated (even as he says with his words that he does not do this). If he has major undisclosed family dysfunction lurking in his background, I believe it’s fair game for discussion, especially in light of how this dysfunction might have played a key role in the culture of fear, control, and the need to gloss over all hurts and problems so that SGM can present a picture-perfect image to the public.
After all, public teachers, who hold themselves up as the supreme authority over everything (including the proper way to watch the Super Bowl!) and feel quite free to offer other preachers like Mark Driscoll “brotherly correction” should be aware that they will be held to a different standard than those they think should be submitting to them.
March 8th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Hi SGM Cas,
I stand corrected and I am sorry that I made that comment. I should have looked in up first in my concordance.
But back to the point. C J is not a drunkard and it is not a sin to be the son of a drunkard. And we do not even know for sure if C J’s father was an alcoholic! So what is the point? It is all fruitless speculation based on hearsay. Are you trying to analyze and judge C J’s control issue, based on unsubstantiated information. And even if it is true, it does not prove that is why C J is the way he is.
March 8th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Every day I work with children and their families whose backgrounds include alcoholism, abuse(emotional, verbal, physical and/or sexual), abandonment, and many other ‘abnormal’ circumstances. They have either come from, or have become, dysfunctional families, due to one or more of these kinds of circumstances. Being the child of an alcoholic or an abuser, or having been abandoned by a parent(s) is not a sin for that child, but let me assure you that the impact can be far, far reaching in their lives, in the emotional well-being, in their spiritual perspective.
I do not say this in a judgemental way at all. I am saying this as a counselor who has the utmost compassion for all of the children/families I work with. It’s not gossip or slander….it is simply the reality that these conditions typically have huge impact on those that live through them. And, keeping it all a secret (for whatever reason, labeling it protection, a desire not to gossip, etc.) is part and parcel of the disease that is dysfunction (with all its underlying causes: abuse, alcoholism, etc.). It is hard to heal until it is brought into the light….until those that lived through it are no longer in denial.
I’ve commented in this blog before that SGM operates, IMO, like one big dysfunctional family. I don’t know about CJ’s past….but I do know in general what the effects can be as I’ve stated ad nauseam, and if these things are in his past, it is definitely worth looking at as a correlation.
p.s. btw, while there is more than 1 cause of panic, of course, a hypersensitive startle reflex can also be a sign of PTSD. With many of the backgrounds shared here (along w/the compounding factor of being abused in SGM), I wouldn’t be surprised if more than 1 person here has PTSD. FWIW………….
March 8th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Hi SGM Cas,
One quick side note on the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I know that no one will probably agree with me on this, but I believe that this unforgivable sin can only be committed by Satan and his demons. That is why it is only mentioned in the Gospels and only by Jesus Himself. I already know that is is highly debatable, and we can do so by e-mail if you desire, as it is not pertinent to this blog.
March 8th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Hi all,
We do not know that C J has kept this a secret from those close to him, nor do we know that he has not received counceling concerning this. So if we go with what we definitly DO know, this conversation will quickly dwindle.
March 8th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Hi all -
Just a quick note to let everyone here (visible and not) know that it seems that someone has registered the domain sguncensored com (NOT to be confused with sguncensored wordpress .com).
This enterprising individual registered it on 2/13 and it’s currently up for sale to the highest bidder. The sad thing is that at least one of the seemingly random redirects will send curious folks to a pornographic site. Might just be a matter of time before this registration will get confused with the REAL site and mess up some search engines.
Be careful when typing in the URL, or better yet, just bookmark http://sguncensored.wordpress.com
now, back to your regularly scheduled commenting
gb
March 8th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Dennis,
I think the best way for you to handle this is to just allow the conversation to take its course, rather than attempting to redirect it (or “control”) it in any way. If you’re right, this conversation will die a natural death and move on to the next topic anyway. But to keep going round and round until everyone caves and submits to your point…well, that just seems pointless to me. And it serves to – ironically – validate the observations made by professional counselors, such as exinternsmom.
I’ve already made my point as to why I believe this topic is worthy of our consideration and is “part of the solution” in understanding what makes SGM tick. You are obviously free to disagree with me and others. I would even concede – as exinternsmom has alluded to – that we don’t even have to go specifically into alcohol abuse.
But SGM’s culture is very much like a dysfunctional family…especially one marred by substance abuse. Leadership’s overweening need to sweep all problems under the rug and pretend that no dissent exists, as well as leadership’s obsession with maintaining control, are all classic characteristics of a family where abuse occurred. Even if we don’t refer specifically to CJ’s possibly dysfunctional upbringing, certainly we can discuss what drives a group of men to think that control and image-grooming are part and parcel of running a “family of churches.”
March 8th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Hey Dennis,
We have tossed the phrase of “bringing the gospel into every area of our lives” around here and identified it with having come out of SGM. We have made fun of how they shallowly define the meaning of the gospel and rob it of its power while using it to impose man-made structures.
The grace of God not only makes it possible for us to daily appropriate His forgiveness for all our sins, but we also look to the grace of God in the gospel for what we are becoming. More and more, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, we are being transformed into the image of Jesus. While we had earthly fathers who “chastened us as seemed best to them”, we can rest assured that as sons and daughters we have the “Spirit of His Son in our hearts crying out, ‘Abba, Father!’”. We aren’t slaves to sin anymore, whether we’re talking about sin that was inflicted upon us indirectly, our own sins, or the consequences of living in a fallen world.
So, even though we all carry the effects of sin in our lives, we shouldn’t be intimidated or discouraged by that, but rather to look to the Author of our faith with boldness, and by His blood and approach His throne with confidence. Jesus was manifest to destroy the works of the devil, and we are to carry on the work of overturning the effects of the fall by exposing and eradicating the suffering caused by sin in the same way Jesus did.
The Lord never suggested we deny our sin or that we have been affected by sin. In fact, saying we have no sin (either as a result of what we did or what someone else did to us) is a form of deception. If we are to walk in the light and have fellowship with one another, we need to be honest. What do you think?
March 8th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Now isn’t that interesting Guy. I sure know it wasn’t me and I’m certain it wasn’t anyone who posts here. Now, let’s assume for the sake of conversation that this is no accident. And lets assume that someone associated with SGM is involved. Granted, that is pure speculation at this point (is there a way to find out where a domain is registered from or by whom?), but it would certainly draw attention to SGM’s constant claim to their critics engaging in slander, because a site like that one would certainly be characterized as an attempt at slandering this site, don’t you think?
March 8th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Hi Claireon,
I agree with what you said. But we can analyze and play guessing games all day as to what motivates and influences C J’s quirks. Maybe we could also talk about how close C J stands to the microwave when he is reheating his coffee.
March 8th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
“But SGM’s culture is very much like a dysfunctional family…especially one marred by substance abuse. Leadership’s overweening need to sweep all problems under the rug and pretend that no dissent exists, as well as leadership’s obsession with maintaining control, are all classic characteristics of a family where abuse occurred. Even if we don’t refer specifically to CJ’s possibly dysfunctional upbringing, certainly we can discuss what drives a group of men to think that control and image-grooming are part and parcel of running a “family of churches.”
Exactly, Kris, and this is the point I was trying to make. They operate like a dysfunctional family and as a result, the congregants often suffer from PTSD, rebellion against God (as is sometimes the case w folks who come from a family w/an abusive father)—in fact, we’ve had a few young people totally walk away from God and SGM is part of their reasons for doing so—and many other ramifications as well. And I think it goes back to what we’ve gone round and round on, that there is a sickness—a cancer, if you will—-at the very core of SGM. Dysfunctional families need healing, and sometimes the only way to bring that healing about is to put some distance between the members……
March 8th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Hi Exintersmom,
You are so right about the dysfunctional family. The problem is that they think that WE are the dysfunctional ones. They do not see the log that is their own eye. They can only see an illusion of a log in our eye. They believe that we are the ones with the distorted vision, so why would they listen to anything we have to say. It is a catch 22.
Plus they perceive us as bitter, slanderous and gossiping. It seems like a no win situation without God’s miraculous intervention.
March 8th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Yeah Dennis, but a microwave oven isn’t a sinful thing, whereas human beings are, and we know how badly we are capable of inflicting pain on each other. I don’t think that anyone reading this part of the discussion should draw any conclusions about themselves as having the same dark tendencies, but patterns of behavior do exist, and that’s a good thing, especially for the person who wants to better understand themselves and come to terms with their past. Again, as Christians, we can do so with confidence that, although painful, our past experiences don’t define us and by the power of the Holy Spirit we are guaranteed conformity to a new man made in His image.
In fact, if we have suffered abuse, we have every reason to be greatly encouraged because “where sin abounds, grace abounds MUCH MORE”!
March 8th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Right on Claireon! That was very encouraging!!!
March 8th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Thanks Dennis! I’m really glad. Thanks for taking the time to share that!
“Encourage one another daily”
March 8th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Claireon,
I’ve included the contact info for the registrant below. It’s really not going to affect the site that much — even if it redirects to a porn site — only b/c we won’t be sharing the same keywords. The only way both will come up is if someone includes the keyword sguncensored in their search (which isn’t a very popular keyword). And if it redirects to another site, it’s just going to surrender all of its real weight (as far as the search engines go) to the site it redirects to anyway, thus pushing it into search engine oblivion.
Also, this is one of the reasons most of the search engines include a “snippet” of text from the site in the search engine results pages (SERPs). People can tell which site offers what, especially if you have a Sovereign Grace “recovery” site (heh) vis-a-vis a porn site. .
Sometimes enterprising individuals just snatch up domain names for blogs as they become more popular b/c a lot of times something will start on a free blog site (like WordPress) and then move to its own domain. So these companies buy them and then try to resell them for more. It’s capitalism at its finest.
[whois.above.com]
Registration Service Provided By: ABOVE.COM DOMAIN PRIVACY.
Contact: +613.95897946
Domain Name: SGUNCENSORED.COM
Registrant:
Transure Enterprise Ltd
Host Master (hostmaster@transureent.com)
Mill Mall Suite 6 PO Box 3085 Wickhams Cay 1 Road Town
Tortola
Tortola,3085
VG
Tel. +1.5016482820
Creation Date: 13-Feb-2008
Expiration Date: 13-Feb-2009
Domain servers in listed order:
pns2.trellian.com
pns1.trellian.com
March 8th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
You beat me to it, Cas.
They’re in the Virgin Islands, btw.
March 8th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Very interesting ladies. Thanks for the info Cas and Ellie! (How did you know they were in the Virgin Islands?)
March 8th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Claireon,
Tortola is an island in the British Virgin Islands.
Domain registrations are a matter of public record. You can always find out who owns a particular domain by going to whois.com. But I like whois.sc even better b/c it offers more info. You can check out the info for sguncensored (dot) com.
March 8th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Dennis
One thing I would ask you might want to to is do some thinking on why this issue is such a hot button for you. How much of what you experienced growing up is making you act the way you are? Why do you not what it to be even “entertained” as a possiblity?
We have discussed a number of other issues that could have been considered gossip etc and you didn’t bring up a concern. Why the sudden change?
We are trying to discover why Sovereign Grace and Mahaney are the way they are. There may be a correlation between what Mahaney experienced as a child and how he now “leads” SG.
I can empathize with your concern over someone’s father being discussed when he isn’t a public figure like Mahaney. One the other hand, I think there should also be concern the abuses that seem to keep occurring at SG. If these are at least partially caused by a leader’s childhood then it is something that needs to be discussed.
Hopefully Mahaney has experienced healing for the hurts incurred during his childhood including his having an alcoholic father. Some of the issues we have seen including his not teaching about the Father Heart of God seems to correlate with this item from his past.
ExinternsMom
Do children from alcoholic families have behavior problems? I remember how Mahaney use to share especially during the TAG days on his wild past and rebellious childhood.
I am just curious how the two correlate.
March 8th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Cas, where did your post 191 just go? I saw it and then I refreshed and it was gone. The one about Whois?
March 8th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Ut oh, are we in moderation or something? I just posted and it didn’t show up…?
March 8th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Joe
If you are still reading this blog and I recall you were planing on expanding the Wiki entry on SG to include church planting you might want to include that the group’s first church plant in Cleveland decided to leave the group. This happened around the time that Tomczak left so I am guessing they are related.
Steve
March 8th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Steve, does CJ have any contact with his siblings?
March 8th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Did you guys see post # 95 where Kris list the questions? I thought those were good ones to consider, even as a child of an alcoholic….I am talking about myself here. I personally find it enthralling to try and understand some of my own weird behaviors, based on my past family environment and dynamics. Since I know I am a new creation in Christ and securely adopted as His child, I don’t worry too much about my past. But I do think it has been fruitful to look back and consider in trying to understand in myself why I may do some of the things I do now…both good and annoying things. Not every behavior is a sin, for instance is speaking loudly a sin if you grew up in a family where the father had a hearing problem??? Some things we do are just learned behaviors, whether or not they turn into sin, is how we use them. Like using them to control others for instance!
March 8th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Hi Steve,
You said: “We are trying to discover why Sovereign Grace and Mahaney are the way they are.”
Why? Is that going to help anyone here? And speculation is not going to help make any discoveries. Does the apostle Paul tell the church to analyze their parents sins to see how it has affected them? Are we following a Biblical pattern in discussing this issue? Would we want SGM analyzing us according to our parents sins? Are we not participating in the same evil that they are guilty of?
It is a hot button because it is gossip and therefor sinful activity. If you can show me a Biblical example that condones this type of discussion, then I would like to see it.
March 8th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
The Bible says to forget what lies behind and to press into our high calling in Christ. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith. I thought we all agreed that SGM’s fixation with indwelling sin was a problem? Then why do we want to go there?
March 8th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Dennis,
You consider speculating about a church leader’s possible childhood dysfunctional family as gossiping, and therefore sinful. You want us to stop talking about it.
Likewise, many moons ago, I considered your particular views of the reality of hell just as sinful to discuss here.
You’re bothered now. I was bothered then.
What it boils down to is control. Who controls the course of conversation? Last time, when there was something questionable that YOU wanted to talk about, you made a big stink about how I was attempting to control things…how I should just have allowed the conversation to die its natural death. And the topic you were championing – hell – was only tangentially related to SGM, whereas the topic of dysfunctional families is extremely relevant to the abusive and toxic environment that many people (yourself included) have described when telling us about their SGM experiences.
So once again, I would suggest that if this topic bothers you, don’t participate in it. It will die its natural death, and then, as someone else said, another subject will arise and you can join us again. Simple, really.