We’ve had some fascinating discussions taking place over at the previous post, “Fear and Loathing in my ‘In’ Box.” But the “comments” section there is nearing 500 responses and is probably a pain to load for those working without a high-speed connection. So I decided we could continue the discussion here.
Feel free to share anything here that you wish, but some topics to consider addressing might be:
-
Why do so many Sovereign Grace Ministries ex-members still express fear when discussing their SGM experiences? After all, what could they possibly have to be afraid of?
-
As our commenter “Freeda Think” said, it might be interesting to discuss SGM’s use of fear and control. Do you think these are tactics deliberately employed? Perhaps some of you might want to do a little research and share what you discover. How would a Christian ministry reach a point where its people are afraid of leaving said ministry? Is fear ever a mark of a healthy or “normal” ministry?
-
Speaking of “normal” ministries…something that came up in our last discussion was the use of the “C” word (“CULT”) as it applies to Sovereign Grace Ministries. Quite some time ago, in this post, I asked people to weigh in on what makes a cult. Can a ministry proclaim the God and the Gospel of the Bible and yet still become a “cult” through their use of spiritual abuse and “cult-like methodologies”? [As a personal disclaimer here, I have an exceedingly difficult time with the use of this term for SGM! At the root of my discomfort is how I feel about the many dear Sovereign Grace people I know. I simply cannot think of them - individually - as "cult members"!] Yet several ex-SGM folks who post regularly here, and who have come across as very thoughtful, well-balanced, and educated, have in recent days suggested that in their opinions, SGM is indeed a “cult.” So perhaps we could discuss whether this term (“cult”) is simply too inflammatory, too pejorative, and too condemning to use for a “family of churches” that preach the Word of God.
All right, people. It’s time to get to work. Please join me in the discussion by posting a comment below.
I never got the "meeting" thing, either. 
March 9th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Ok, I am back home. Thank you to the King & Queen for a fun filled time!!
March 9th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
PD:
Wow, the Easter service you describe is stunning. And your discussion how cults begin and evolve is very interesting and scary.
I don’t mean this to sound argumentative, but I think it’s curious that you said:
“Seedje preached it and it was the first time I ever lost respect for him in any way (as a general rule, I still do truly believe him to be an awesome person).”
Why do you still think that?
It’s very confusing for me, as an outsider, to see how someone who is the leader of a cult-like organization can still be thought of in such high regard.
Please understand that my tone is not judging or harsh — I’m just asking.
March 9th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Awww, Annie, I’m so glad you’re jumping in. It was kind of fun to picture someone jumping in slowly. But I do have an abnormally overactive imagination.
Seriously, so many of us have been exactly where you are … and on some days right there! I remember the first time I posted here, I was scared to death, even though I had been out for five years. The thought of being “lovingly pursued” by the players in my drama was a frightening one.
Although I can completely understand anyone’s hesitance to share their story, I decided to throw all caution to the wind and share mine, in all its rawness, for the sake of people like you who would come along and be able to relate to some of the darker sides of Sovereign Grace.
There are times I read the more rational posts from people like Kris and think, “Ugh! Why couldn’t I have that story? Why couldn’t I have been one of the ones who said, ‘Okay, this is a little creepy in a Stepford sorta way’ and gotten out of dodge with my spirit largely intact? Why do I have to be the one who has the heart-wrenching posts that reveal my own pathologies and many ways I was a total sucker for 12 years every bit as much as the abusive methodologies of this ministry?!? And why am I the one who — after trying SO hard to stay calm and rational as I pontificated on my more harrowing experiences in the ministry — then decides to go all postal on a first-time visitor, sending the whole blog into a whirlwind for the better part of a day? (I’m really not struggling w/ condo-bondo over that, so don’t read into my references to that; it was just more humbling than anything.)”
But then I hear bits and pieces of others’ sad SGM stories — both on the blog and those who aren’t yet ready to take the step you’ve taken but stumbled across my email — and am content to have the story I have. Even grateful for it at times b/c it’s a story of amazing redemption and speaks of how God really can turn even our most regrettable tragedies around by His grace. “You turned my wailing into dancing; you removed my sackcloth and clothed me with joy” (Ps 30:11). Yay!
Hang in there, friend.
March 9th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Lynn…
Re #342 – Heh. Uh, yeah…maybe I’ll write a book about bringing the Gospel into shopping. Oh wait, the Mahaney ladies already did that one. Shoot. Guess I’ll have to think of something else so that I can make my big fortune.
March 9th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
P-Diddy-
Now, I haven’t had time to read the article, but what you are saying is fascinating. My husband and I were just talking and we can’t go there with the cult status, however, we were calling it a “new movement” and within that movement is a lot of immaturity (it is only 30 years old) and a lot of personality driven dynamics.
I hope to have a bit of time read that article.
Secondly, most of the weird stuff that were breaking points for us happened on Easter Sunday as well. I am not willing to give out specifics at it involves individuals who are not pastors, but nonetheless, there were dark and morose overtones and some flat out scripture-contradicting things that happened….on Easter. So, what is the deal with that????
March 9th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Claireon (325)
Thanks! We were all quite puzzled and tried googling the phrase, but we were stumped!
March 9th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Kris,
They also already wrote about bringing the gospel into PMS and menopause.
Just thought you should know…
March 9th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
High Church, re 355:
I’ve heard that’s how SG “does Easter” in my neck of the woods, too. They use it as an opportunity to go over TULIP.
March 9th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Sorry, I can’t contain my continually brimming thoughts! Feel free to skim.
Francie #242:
I love your list!!! Bullet points are my friend in so many ways. You raised a number of truly insightful theories and poignant observations in your post.
One interesting thing that it brought up for me is the division between members and attendees. It’s not a marked division, not necessarily, but it is nonetheless palpable. Attendees are so strongly encouraged to join the church and are shunned from certain events (family meetings, care group membership) should they not join. Members treat attendees with a certain amount of deference and cordiality along with the pressure to join, though… Most of us mention how loved and welcomed we felt on first attendence but not so much after we were officially tied to the church!
Believe it or not, I never actually became a real member of SGM. I was a member by proxy, basically, as I grew up in the church, but my division with it began when I was sixteen or seventeen. By the time I reached my eighteenth birthday and the pressure to join was ON I looked at that new members’ class with horror. I didn’t know where I stood religiously but I knew without doubt it was NOT with SGM.
I continued to attend for some time after the day when my membership ceremony should have taken place based on my birthday (that’s another thing…do most legitimate churches practice membership cermonies??) and was treated with a mingled sense of pity and condescension from my peers thereafter. I got a strong sense I was somehow “missing out” on what the church was about, but couldn’t really see how it was possible. (Family meetings hadn’t yet been instituted and I wasn’t dissuaded from attending care group or anything… I imagine they felt I just needed some time to ‘search my heart’.) If it WAS possible I was somehow barred from the inner sanctum I started to feel like that might be a majorly good thing. With the renewed furvor that started after Joshua’s promotion to Sr Pastor I actually started to get a bit scared by the church’s all-encompassing sway over members’ lives.
In any case, point is: I was spared many of the sufferings you have all experienced. Yes, I went through a decent period of pastoral counselling and was in a care group and on worship bands and fully immersed in church life…but it was, as I said, as a proxy member since my parents were members in good standing. Because I knew I didn’t want to join, I never had looked at their membership ‘contract’ before… It’s incredible and nauseating to me at the same time.
A couple final observations of cult characteristics and then I’ll shut up:
—Isolation, as discussed previously.
—Sense of superiority, being somehow special or distinct or just the only ones really, truthfully informed as opposed to the the rest of the world.
—Diminishment of the individual’s role in society or the group. (worship, care group, meetings, clubs… There was such a sheep-like quality to life! Standing out was what drew attention because it was almost invariably ’caused by sin’ of some kind.)
—Unquestioning submission to leadership. (Which is never the case: someone ALWAYS protests. Every cult I’ve ever heard of has had protesters rise within the ranks. Thing is, they’re tartgeted as rebels and dissenters and either leave of their on accord/disgust or are forced to leave. Voila! No more dissent. Balance of power stabilized.)
—Leader worship. (This is often an undisputed cult characteristic, although the definition of ‘cult’ is pretty universally not set in stone. SGM does not show leader worship per se… But aren’t the leaders glorified? Aren’t they seen as superior religious intermediaries even if they themselves aren’t worshiped? This also points back to the diminishment of the individual, as the leaders are first given the power then relied on for that power of spiritual communication. While the individual is still allowed and encouraged to talk to god, there is a sense of belittlement about his commune vs. the leaders’.)
—Defensiveness and anger at external criticism. (Closely tied to the unquestioning submission part… It’s often as though cults rely not only on internal submission but the indisputed agreement of every party on earth. In some ways I wonder if they require this in order to ‘prove’ they are a true church and not a cult, since ‘church’ is usually accepted as holding a seal of theological approval. Should people outside start refuting this, the ‘church’ begins to lose its credibility.)
Jeez. As I’ve said… academic papers out of what was meant to be a bullet-point post! I’ve truly done a fair amount of study on the nature of cults throughout history (Egypt to Renaissance Europe to now and all in between) and as such can talk anyone’s ear off about this subject if I get started.
The thing which really frustrates me is that it doesn’t seem to much matter how many people view SGM as a cult… We’re only licking our wounds here and are still powerless to do anything about those who are currently BEING injured.
~PDiddy
March 9th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
For me, one of the TULIP pedals has fallen off. :-)
March 9th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Ellie,
The high council couldn’t find the answer? Heh. Some apostles you turned out to be. I call for a coup!
PDiddy and HiC,
I concur with the Easter thing. I wrote of my angst in an earlier blog post. I was so starving to hear SOMETHING, AAAANYTHING about Jesus’ resurrection and what it means for us. But Easter after Easter there was nary a word of it, let alone a sermon dedicated to talking about our Savior’s glorious TRIUMPH over sin, death, and the grave!
After hearing now more than a handful of people with the same observation, it begs some investigation into what the heck’s up with deliberately holding back on a critical element in the gospel they claim to cherish.
How hard is this, SGM pastors??? Why the don’t-ask-don’t-tell policy on the Savior’s resurrection? Do you really think these apparent gag orders honor the Savior you proclaim? Do you think it helps to promulgate the gospel you claim to be so passionate about?
(I know you guys are reading, even though you signed a contract that said you wouldn’t participate in any way in gossip and slander … and you all believe this blog is slander. Tsk, tsk. Hope you’re deleting your Internet history files. heh)
Okay, that was fun.
March 9th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
A couple of things especially bothered me about the Easter service we experienced at SGM.
To the best of my recollection, the sermon itself wasn’t so much “doom and gloom.” I do believe that the resurrection was one of its focuses. Yet the overall mood was still so somber, even more somber than our usual Sunday meeTings.
March 9th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
If it looks like a cult, acts like a cult, and talks like a cult, it must be a “family of churches”.
March 9th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Dennis -
#363 =
March 9th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
I have finally found a very normal church where I am warmly welcomed and accepted. Here is a clip from one of our services.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObhvOeNCKhs
March 9th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Lynn #352:
The reason I say that is because of personal interactions with him. Heck, I used to bike ride past his house on a daily basis! I hold him in high regard as an individual seeking to do what is right by god but seriously question his authority and responsibility to lead. When I’ve spoken to him he truly seems like a very kind, compassionate man who is sincere in his love for god.
Yes, I would say he takes it to extremes in some ways and can be faulted for false humility and misleading others along unscriptural paths to some extent. Thing is… Again, I think he’s a great person. In fact, I think most of the pastors I’ve met are. I wonder how many of them question these very things we’re discussing but feel helplessly trapped because of their positions of authority and influence – not to mention income!
After all, look at other dismissed pastors for a minute. I don’t want to say this is anything more than theory because IT IS ONLY A THEORY PLEASE DO NOT IN ANY WAY PURPORT THIS AS FACT: could his “pride issue” have been that he in some way disputed leaders’ theological interpretations and refused to align himself with theirs? Wouldn’t that be interpreted by the leaders as a gross example of pride?
I feel sorry for the pastors in so many ways. I don’t know how fully any of them buy into the SGM teachings. I don’t know how many of them have questions. (I DO know that many of their kids do, as I grew up with most of them… We seem to be the first generation to come out born and raised in SGM, from what I can gather, and the conflicts I see in members’ kids are the same seen in pastors’.) But regardless, what would happen if they DID? Their whole lives are tied into the church so much more intricately than ours ever were! I feel like if I were in that position there would be only two options: shut up and go with it or kill myself. There hardly seemed to be a third out as just the child of a member, let alone as a pastor of twenty plus years. And since of course suicide would cause an endless number of problems for all left behind, let alone the victim, it would seem the only viable option would be to stifle it and shut up.
That’s how I see it, anyway… Maybe the reason I think the pastors are such great guys is because they are so gentle… And maybe that’s due to them being broken, in a sense, by their forced submission without thought and protest. Who knows.
But I honestly don’t think, at least from what I have seen and experienced, that the pastors want this suffering to be occuring within their groups. I don’t think that they started SGM with the intention of taking over the world. I think they legitimately want to help people but they started a ball rolling which is way too big for them to try to control, and now they’re stuck in its path as inexorably as every other member.
~PDiddy, afraid to be stoned for these inflammatory comments
March 9th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
SGM Cas #161:
Girl! You crack me up with that little final rebuke! I’m still laughing, seriously.
March 9th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Hey everyone!
Well, SGM Cas, you did it again! Once more, you and I are on the exact same wavelength. While there are so many other people I want to respond to (you are all so great!), I’ve decided to comment on your Post #322:
“I just think there is a veritable feast in the book of Job that could give us a more balanced perspective on biblical fellowship than some of the books on SGM’s book tables. It’s obvious Job’s friends were sincere. They came to him with the intent to “sympathize with him and comfort him” (Job 2:11b)…But their sin-sniffing counsel that constantly urged Job to look at his sin was not pleasing to God.”
This brought to mind one of the most painful things that happened to me while at a PDI Church. This was during the last stages of my dying marriage. My abusive husband had not spoken to me for 13 days. I was in bed, bleeding while 3 months pregnant, because 13 days prior, my husband shook me so hard in a fit of rage (I was trying to protect my 3 year-old at that time because he was wanting to punish her, PDI-style; but with a belt, this time, not the PDI-prescribed wooden rod).
Anyway, the doctor told me to stay in bed or I might lose the baby. The whole time I lay there, my husband pretended I did not exist and told my 3 year-old that mommy was so lazy and wouldn’t even get out of bed to make her meals or take care of her because she didn’t care about her. Thank God my mom came around to take care of me and my daughter during those days because I was so extremely depressed that I would have stayed in bed anyway–doctor’s orders or not. I didn’t even have the energy to defend myself. I just lay there and took the abuse.
Anyway, it was the 13th day. I was sinking deeper and deeper into my depression. I was finding less and less reasons to live. The night before, the Lord gave me a bizarre dream about a small woman with two small children walking into my room. They did not say a word. However, they were accompanied by a very large woman who stood in front of them and was yelling at me–pure hatred coming out of her mouth. It was such a shocking scene and so weird, yet so real, that I had to write it down as soon as I woke up. I also felt led to open my bible and re-read the book of Job that morning.
Barely had I finished the book when my sister-in-law, who happened to also be my senior pastor’s wife, walked into my bedroom along with her two daughters. It was just like in my dream! Instead of yelling though, she was very sweet and soft-spoken. Yet through her smile, her words were deadly: “You really should look at what YOU are doing to cause this to happen to your marriage. What sin are YOU hiding? You really need to be more submissive…more trusting…God will save your marriage and change your husband if you just yield to Him more! If your husband wants you to do laundry ten times a day…do laundry ten times a day (yes, these last words are verbatim).”
I couldn’t believe it! Here I was, bleeding…in danger of losing my baby…because of what her brother, my husband did to me…and all she cared about was finding out about my sin, my unsubmissiveness, my unyielding attitude towards God, etc. When she left, I began to weep uncontrollably. I wanted to die. But then God reminded me of the dream. He told me to forgive me sister-in-law who was under the control of a very strong religious spirit (in my dream, she was the larger woman). He reminded me of Job and his own most trusted, closest friends who misunderstood him and accused him wrongly. I can honestly tell you that had the Lord not given me that dream and had I not read the book of Job that day–my extreme depression, my dead marriage, my physical pain and this incredibly harmful encounter with my pastor’s wife would have driven me to just end it all that day.
I think it was Ms. Bennet-Darcy who was asking the question about how long it takes to heal from PDI/SGM spiritual abuse. I don’t think the question is necessarily HOW LONG…but perhaps HOW WELL. And I don’t know the answer to that either. All I know is that this incident took place about 15 years ago (because that baby inside my womb is now a wonderful, happy 14 year-old) and I’ve had to go through much therapy to get to some sense of wholeness. Humor definitely helps (and there’s quite a bit of humor in this blog–thanks to all the crazy bloggers whom I’ve come to love and admire for their courage and wisdom)! And perhaps, just the act of always telling our stories to those who will listen. Stories are powerful. Even the most painful ones. For years, I told no one of what my pastor’s wife said to me that day. To this day, she has no idea how her words were used by the enemy to destroy the little bit of self-worth I had back then. But just like Job, I was able to say in the end, as SGM Cas quoted in her post: ““I will never admit you are in the right; till I die, I will not deny my integrity. I will maintain my righteousness and never let go of it; my conscience will not reproach me as long as I live” (Job 27:5-6).
How long did it take me? Many, many years. How well did I recover? I am happy to say that God, in His loving mercy and kindness, has given me double blessings for every pain and suffering I had to endure in the past, just like Job.
Hope this helps.
March 9th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
PDiddy,
Thank you for that long and thought out response. I understand you being hestitant to be “mean” to someone you knew and had face-to-face interactions with.
But look at your last post! You talk about suicide, people’s will being broken, people having to shut up and keep their opinions to themselves!! How can anyone at the helm of such a movement be called “awesome”?
I truly do respect your desire to separate the mistakes from the man, but I simply can’t. I can say I feel sorry for someone who has to control people — only up to the point that he causes pain. Perhaps it’s because I was once abused and held against my will by abuser that I can only go so far with my sympathy, but I can’t separate what CJ is doing from who is he as a person because of how much pain he is causing.
How long have you been “out”?
(Again, PDiddy, if you’ve read much of what I’ve written, you will know that I’m not harsh. I prefer the silly banter we’ve been having!)
Goodnight all!
March 9th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
haha Dennis…..looks like just the guys are handling the snakes, wonder why?
cuz the men are dumb leaders? haha jk
March 9th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Wow Pia.
I’m speechless.
What a heartbreaking story — thanks for your transparency, because someone who is currently suffering as you did will read this and find hope. I’m sure of it.
Bless you a thousand times for your courage! And thanks be to our God for freeing you!
March 9th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
P-Did-
you said:
That’s how I see it, anyway… Maybe the reason I think the pastors are such great guys is because they are so gentle… And maybe that’s due to them being broken, in a sense, by their forced submission without thought and protest. Who knows.
But I honestly don’t think, at least from what I have seen and experienced, that the pastors want this suffering to be occuring within their groups. I don’t think that they started SGM with the intention of taking over the world. I think they legitimately want to help people but they started a ball rolling which is way too big for them to try to control, and now they’re stuck in its path as inexorably as every other member.
I totally agree with you. I just wonder when someone will wake up and say that enough is enough.
I know you mentioned that there is not “hero-worship” (or something like that) of the leaders. I would disagree wholeheartedly. There is rampant people worship throughout the whole ministry and I think it is so dangerous. How can you explain all of the young men who attend PC and then come back speaking and dramatic pausing just like CJ? (This is rhetorical..PD….I am sure no one really knows why! :-) )
Pia-
I am sitting here with tears in my eyes. What a powerful story. What a powerful testimony of your faith and God’s unfailing mercy. Thanks for sharing. That took much courage. I am sure others will be encouraged by your story.
March 9th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Dennis #363:
Priceless!
March 9th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Lynn #260:
You wrote: “SG leaders talk in such circles w/that SG-speak that it takes two years to figure out what was said!!”
This was yet another thing I meant to add to my list of cultish characteristics: double binds. I was reading a fascinating website a few weeks ago written by an ex-mormon on her experience with the double-binds found in LDS and was surprised to see how many match SGM double-binds.
Just a couple off the top of my head:
“I am the worst sinner I know; all my best efforts are nothing but filthy rags.” BUT “I need to do my best to follow the lord in everything I do and trust him with my sanctification.”
“Children, obey thy parents in everything for this is right and pleasing to the lord.” BUT “Aren’t my parents the worst sinners THEY know? And I’m entrusting my unquestioning obedience to their fallibitilty?”
“My heart is deceitfully wicked above all things and if I trust it I am in the sin of pride in my own judgment.” BUT “Didn’t God give me this conscience to use as my moral judgment center?”
Anyone else think of some nice little double-binds?
March 9th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
PD-
You nailed the biggies!!!
Have you ever heard of Rene Girard and his concept of “scapegoating”. A friend of ours was telling us about it and I feel it would apply to so many stories here. However, I have not studied it myself so I feel inadequate to bring it to the table. You seem like a smarty :-) and I thought you may know something about him and his theories.
March 9th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Hi Claireon,
We men are greatly out numbered on this site, so I won’t even attempt to defend my macho snake handling. Here is my video link again for those who missed it from my new church of snake handling Pentecostals. It is great to be back in a normal church service after leaving SGM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObhvOeNCKhs
March 9th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Dennis, your sense of normal is whacked!
March 9th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Lynn and HiC,
You both raise really good points. I suppose that on many levels, because my parents and friends and almost all my immediate family are still so intimately involved in SGM I feel a certain compulsion to try to defend them. I guess I try to defend their intentions and the good, human things about them while still condemning their truly horrible actions in other areas. In some ways it comes back to things my mom used to tell me about her parents… That they had done some really awful things but she needed to forgive them and we needed to continue to love them because a, it’s what god commands, and b, we are all just as capable of doing those things.
…Wow, I almost edited out the last part of that comment because as soon as I wrote it I realized how much it points back to the ‘I’m the worst sinner I know’ concept… The ‘I have just as much potential to become Hitler or Judas residing within me as they did’ concept. Huh. Interesting moment of self-realization, I thought I’d gotten away from that for the most part! Lolz.
I suppose I have a strong tendency to defend reasons and intentions and the good that these people still do, at least sometimes. I truly feel awful by holding bitterness and condemnation toward people, even those who have hurt me. I often wonder about what hurt these people are feeling themselves, to make them act like this. In some way this can seem like I’m criticizing myself and saying I could act just as badly, which I do believe. BUT, I don’t believe it because I think I’m just unstoppably rotten inside. I believe it because I think in so many ways we’re products of experience and circumstances, which….
Crap, I’m getting myself into a real corner here! I’m not used to being on the weak end of an argument. ^.^ I’m going to have to think about this one for a while and get back to you when I come up with either some answers or some amendments to my perspectives. It is really throwing me for a loop to be on such unstable footing… Normally I’ve got my big ol’ guns and I stick to ‘em until he bitter end. Now I’m looking at my gun and wondering if maybe it’s just a stick after all.
In answer to how long I’ve been out, it’s abooout three years, I think. It’s hard to say, because in many ways I just faded and slipped out the back door when no one was looking, since I didn’t go through the membership or dismembership process. I don’t feel I was truly out of it until I left my parents’ house and started living on my own in a different state, though, and even now so much of my sense of who I am andwhat I believe still leans on the things I was raised to believe, not my own convictions. I’m working on forming them but it is so much easier said than done. (I’d have saved a ot of money on therapy, too…)
And HiC, I’m up for staging a protest if you are. I’m aaaaall about protests. I’ll make the picket signs and everything!
(To cover my butt, that is a JOKE. Please don’t sue me! ….Although given the chance I can’t promise I woudn’t do it…)
March 9th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Hmmm, I’ve actually not heard of him. YAY NEW READING MATERIAL ZOMG!!!!
Hehe.
Sadly, I’m going to have to drop out of the comment by comment convo now because I need to go pick my roommate up from work… Hopefully there aren’t 4208957498675 new comments to read by the time I get back!
March 9th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Hi Claireon,
I owe my sense of normalcy completely to SGM. It is amazing that any of us former SGMers have any sense at all anymore!
March 9th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
PD -
Along the same lines as your observation about children/parents, how about people and their leaders? On the one hand you have CJ telling audiences that he is the worst sinner he knows. On the other hand, he preaches that those same audiences must submit unquestioningly to their authorities, which would include him, of course.
March 9th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Hey Tina,
I understand your difficulty, I really do. Especially when it comes to parents and/or family members. It can really mess with your mind when they take the unwavering position that YOU are wrong and that YOU need to change your position and come around to THEM. What further complicates this entire situation is the doubt that SGM plants in your mind that causes you to question everything about YOURSELF. And this is further exacerbated by the knowledge we have of our own human fraility, which makes us vulnerable to being taken advantage of by those who would seek to control and manipulate us into doing things according to their will and purpose. And then of course, there exists the natural desire we have to honor our parents, so when the problem is our parents, it can become a terribly vicious cycle!
But in reality, you know that you’re not completely nuts. You know that what you experienced was abuse. You know that the church sought to impose things on you that you felt were not of God and certainly not right. You used your own mind to think things through,and as you did so you were doubted and questioned at every turn. And when you needed help in the past you were ignored because the kind of help you needed wasn’t made available. And what bugs me the most is that your perception of God has been distorted throughout the whole process and the key players in that are unwilling, as far as I can tell, to take any responsibility for that. So, what do they do? They’ve put it all on you.
The thing we can help you with here is helping you to be strengthened in your conviction that there are things that you don’t need to change, THEY DO. SGM has it wrong, but they want to make you think you’ve got it wrong. I can understand you feeling unsure of yourself in terms of that, but I’m sure by now you realize that your feelings and questions and doubts about SGM have been pretty much validated and you are not alone!
March 9th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
PD-
I don’t think you are losing arguments or trading sticks for your guns by any means. I think what you have to say is so fully compassionate; I find it quite inspiring. I can totally understand your compassion as you are so closely related (in more ways that one) to the situation. I think that it is important for all of us to recognize that these people in charge of SGM are humans. It is easy for me to be critical of their methods, but I really can’t level a criticism at an individual. The people that I still know at the church and in leadership are fine and wonderful people. However, I think SGM is a hot mess. So, for me it easy to compartmentalize. But, if I had to see these folks for Thanksgiving and “Resurrection” Day…I might be humming a different tune. But, what I like about this forum (besides spontaneous hilarity) is there are so many folks with a myriad of experiences and I feel it brings balance to the dialogue.
And, I don’t know who else is holding out with me here, but I am still one of the ones not able to call it a cult!!! :-)
March 9th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
P-Diddy,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful contributions! What a sharp, analytical mind you have. And a great writer (as I’ve told you before).
I can understand your hesitancy to think anything ill of Seedge and da boys. It’s a grand dichotomy. I see, on the one hand, the atrocities that their cult-like practices have engendered in people’s lives and am horrified, knowing that they will have to give an account for every way they’ve encouraged these abuses in word and/or deed. But then I remember so many times when these guys were just really nice guys, who were approachable, humble, funny, enterprising, etc. I think it’s good when all of the positive, warm memories soften our judgments and pacify our anger, so that we can pray for these leaders and extend mercy to them them.
I know, for me, I’ve had to be careful that in my genuine desire to maintain a heart of mercy (okay, aside from my crude humor and buffoonery!), that I’m careful to not inadvertently extend tacit consent to their actions that have run so counter-current against the flow of sound doctrine and the undiluted, undistorted gospel message. Please hear I’m NOT saying you’ve done that, dearest. I’m saying that when I first started blogging here, I had the same sense of residual awe for CJ and some notable leaders in the movement.
But then, after reading some of his blog posts, recalling some of Seedge’s more disturbing taglines (e.g., “We will never move on from the cross.”), and reading story after story of how lives have been significantly impacted by the extreme control he set as the standard for Sovereign Grace Ministries, my perspective changed.
What changed it even more is I really started to question how God must feel about these things. I mean, it’s one thing to experience poignant sorrow as you read some of the stories that have been shared here. But to think about how GOD feels about His gospel being distorted; how His Son’s rightful place on the throne, not the cross, is not being recognized; how His bride has been likened to Homer, the harlot, who committed adultery against her husband again and again (Major ugh! … Who gave these guys the right to call Jesus’ bride a whore?); how His sons and daughters’ spirits are being crushed through heavy-handed discipline processes; how His glory is being shared with Seedge through the universal veneration that is continually extended to him; how the role of His Spirit is usurped by SGM leadership in members’ lives; how worship that is supposed to focus on the Lamb somehow gets distorted and focuses on US and our sin … (I really could go on) … When I think about those things, I cry out, “Lord, have mercy. They know not what they do!” Really. It brings such fear to my heart.
So that’s kind of the process I’ve gone through that has brought my perspective more to where it is today. Of course, (please hear me on this) I’m not setting my perspective up as one to be admired or emulated in any way. But I offer it to try to explain that I understand where you, Lynn, and HiC are coming from.
Pia,
Once again, friend, your story riveted me. How amazingly GOOD of God to give you that dream to spare you from a possibly irrecoverable collapse into abject despair! He is just so amazingly kind to us to prepare us in ways like that.
My heart breaks when I read about the suffering you’ve experienced at the hands of other Christians! But then it is buoyed when I think about the incredible work of restoration He has accomplished in your life and how you are His heart and hands to all of those dear homeless people you serve week after week!
I know I’ve said this before, but one of the things I look forward to in heaven is listening to people’s stories of redemption and God’s merciful intervention for all eternity! And being able to recall them with crystal clarity and understand them from heaven’s vantage point. What a time we will have!!!
March 9th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Pia -
Thank you for sharing your story. I am so sorry that it happened, but so encouraged that God has restored you. I know that God will and is using it to help others.
SGM Cas -
I loved Tale of Two Cities and Mockingbird as well. Haven’t read them in a long time, but I remember that I really liked them. PD James is a British mystery writer. And you know, if you gave Pride and Prejudice a shot, you’d see a beautiful father-daughter relationship ;)
This is the first post that I’ve been able to keep up with. Probably because of all the Jane Austen banter. But, I just wanted to thank you all once again. Like I said before, we’ve been following this blog for several months. It has helped us, Mr Darcy and I, process so much that we’ve experienced in the last several years.
I am still struggling with how to respond to my friend who is very much entrenched in SGM, but wants to continue the friendship as it once was. We were very close. You and I know that it cannot. But, I don’t know what to say. I am well aware that whatever I say may be shared with others, and I certainly don’t want any “loving pursuers” to approach us. At the same time, I do care about her and don’t want to hurt her unnecessarily. Any other thoughts? Thanks once again.
March 9th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Mrs. Darcy-
I still have one friend that I would say is “super close” in SGM. I have other casual relationships where things don’t go to far beyond “fun”. But, with the one friendship I am just completely honest with her. When she asks me what I think about things I tell whether or not I think SGM has missed the mark. I also try to affirm the good I see in her and in the movement….when I CAN IN GOOD CONSCIENCE! Would I like to see all the people I love out of SGM….in an ideal world, yeah, probably. But, I know for myself that when I learn things on my own it is an indelible lesson that I will never forget. I don’t know that I could have handled someone dear to me telling me to get the heck out of SGM whilst entrenched in it. I know a few folks who had strong objections to SGM, but didn’t come at me with “guns a blazin’ ” . They inspired me by their own lives, their own study and constant care a friendship.
The fact that this person wants to be your friend after you have “left the fold” speaks volumes to me. Lots of folks wanted nothing to do with me after we left. So, perhaps God has a bigger plan for her via your friendship. Who knows? But, just continue to speak the truth in love. That doesn’t mean avoiding topics of controversy.
March 9th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
P-Diddy,
You said,
As many of you know, I’m hopelessly visual and get pictures stuck in my head for a long time. Sometimes, in fact, these pictures come back to haunt me at the most inopportune times, and I’m prone to making a complete idiot of myself.
One of the worst times is during rush hour traffic. My mind, which always has to be busy doing something, will often wander to some of the blog interactions here. And there are times I’ll think of something in traffic, in my car (ALONE mind you), and I’ll just start laughing. Not like pretty, little Austen-esque P&P laughter either.
And then you know how you get that sixth sense that someone’s watching you? Sure ’nuff, I’ll look at a driver next to me and see this puzzled look on his/her face. There have even been times this has happened, and I’ll hold up my cell phone to try to make it look like I was on speaker all that time (sad but very true). Except one time I realized afterwards I still had my blue tooth on my ear … God’s recompense for being deceitful.
ANYWAY, to make a short story long, picturing you charging into battle in full camo, gear and all, (we’ll even throw some brush on top of your helmet for kicks), just to look down and realize that your oozie is just a child’s play stick … Well, that’s just too rich for words.
I think being willing to consider and reconsider — ad infinitum — our perspectives is key to maintaining an open mind and humble heart.
March 9th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Mrs. D,
I agree w/ what HiC said completely. It’s rare to have a friend who wants to keep in touch with you after you’ve left, aside from very brief and ephemeral interactions. Too aggressive of an approach usually sends them running even deeper into the bowels of control (b/c then inevitably someone starts holding them accountable to confront you, reject interactions with you, etc.). So I never recommend that approach. But I wouldn’t avoid “going there” if the conversation naturally moves in the direction of your concerns. My approach was little questions get little answers; big questions get big answers.
And if you are pursued, you can always draw appropriate boundaries. I mentioned last week that one time I was pursued by an SGM pastor a good year after I left b/c of something he claimed that was “reported” to him. He called twice and insisted that I call back. I chose, instead, to email him and confronted him and then asked him to restrict his interactions to email.
Of course, he wasn’t going to adjust to the direction of a woman (heh), and he left me alone. Mission accomplished. But I know if I would have returned his call, it would have been much more difficult to stand my ground w/o sinning all over the dude.
March 9th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Greetings, all, I just found your postings, wow!
I teach a bunch of homeschooled (of course) kids, (although how are they homeschooled if all their schooling is farmed out?) and love them dearly. Vast majority of them are SGM. I am PCA–and have become increasingly weirded out by the SGM community here.
I have never seen so many people so tied to each other. Seems like there is a conference on something or other every weekend–LOL, most of them are on parenting or marriage, while the kids stay home babysitting each other. Continual classes on how to be a better husband/wife/mother/father. One time I asked them when there parents got to practice everything they learned at all the conferences and were met with the usual blank stares.
The kids seem convinced that the Ten commandments Moses drug down Sinai can be summed up in one sentence: For the sake of all that is holy, don’t DATE!
We studied John Calvin the other day, and only the PCAers and the lone Anglican knew anything about him. These kids have never heard of Luther or Knox. They think the SGM is a huge denomination with world-wide dominance and prestige. They absolutely don’t believe me when I tease them that my local church is bigger than their’s. They simply look at me with pity and invite me (or my kid) to one more SGM meeting.
I made a comparison of Kate in Taming of the Shrew to Job’s wife, and was met with blank stares–the SGM kids had never heard of….(you guessed it)….Job or his wife! Although I did assure them they courted and never kissed each other before the altar, they seemed unconvinced.
They have no knowledge of anything outside SGM, For some reason, John Piper is getting good play right now, so many of them have heard of him. I told them he was a Baptist and was met with……..blank stares.
Is this typical?
March 9th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
I haven’t posted before, but I’ve been reading for some time. Typically I like an iron clad comment, void of emotion so that I may not be disregarded as a loon. (Not that I would say that of any of you, and if it were said by others I would hope to be in that bin with you as I find your posts heart wrenching, enjoyable, all too familiar.
When I went through some classes for developing leaders, we were pointed to Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology as something to be read. Although the apostle thread is full and the topic has been discussed in great detail, I would like to share what Wayne has to say.
Please note that I disagree with some of Wayne Grudem’s points throughout Systematic Theology, but I’m using this book because it was suggested by the SG leadership.
Page 911 (it’s an emergency)
Church Government: Apostles:
C. Summary: The word apostle can be used in a broad or narrow sense. In a broad sense, it just means “messenger” or “‘pionner missionary.” but in a narrow sense, the most common sense in the NT, it refers to a specific office “apostle of Jesus Christ.” These apostles had unique authority to found and govern the early church, and they could speak and write words of God. Many of their written words became the NT scriptures.
In order to qualifiy as an apostle, someone (1) had to have seen Christ with his won eyes after he rose from the dead, and (2) had to have been specifically appointed by Christ as an apostle. There was a limited number of apostles, perhaps fifteen or sixteen or a few more–the NT is not explicit on the number. The twelve original apostles (the eleven plus Matthias) were joined by Barnabas and Paul, very probably James, perhaps Silas, and maybe even Andronicus and Junias or a few unnamed others. It seems that no apostles were appointed after Paul, and certainly, since no one today can meet the qualification of having seen the risen Christ with his own eyes, there are no apostles today. In place of living apostles present in the church to teach and govern it, we have instead the writings of the apostles in thebooks of the New Testament. Those NT Scriptures fulfill for the church today the absolutely authoritative reaching and governing functioins which were fulfilled by the apostles themselves during the early years of the church.
(this is where it gets good!)
Though some may use the word apostle in English today to refer to very effective church planters or evangelists, it seems inappropriate and unhelpful to do so, for it simply confuses people who read the New Testament and see the high authority that is attributed to the office of “apostle” there. It is noteworthy that no major leader in the history of the church– not Athanasius or Augustine, not Luther or Calvin, not Wesley or Whitefield– has taken to himself the title of “apostle” or let himself be called an apostle. If any in modern times want to take the title”apostle” to themselves, they immediately raise the suspicion that they may be motivated by innappropriate pride and desires for self-exaltation, along with excessive ambition and a desire for much more authority in the church than any one person should rightfully have.
Well, I guess we won’t see Wayne’s book on the book table any more….
March 9th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
Reformed Teacher, thanks for the chuckles.
Thanks, Marlboro Man, for bringing that great quote to light.
No, that version of the book probably won’t be on the book table because Jeff Purswell (head of the PC) edited the Cliffs’ Notes version of it, called Bible Doctrine. I haven’t read it, but it was sitting here in my “To Be Sold on Ebay” pile with all the other SGM stuff.
Your post prompted Mr. D and I to look through it. “Apostle” does not show up in the index or in the section on church government. It is in Ch. 30 (pp. 408 and 409) which is about the GIfts of the Holy Spirit.
It doesn’t have that “where it gets good” part. I wonder why…. ;)
March 9th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
As I’ve mentioned, I’ve never seen or heard CJ in person. My only exposure to him has been via DVD, audio files, and the glowing things that others would say. Even before this blog started, I’ve was so puzzled over the grip that he seems to have on almost all SGM people’s psyches. But after hearing all the stories, I’m so much more amazed that Seedge can engender such loyalty. Even among people who have been burned by SGM and have little good to say about any of the other SG people, it’s like Seedge sails through with a free pass.
The other day, I was especially pondering why Seedge seems beyond reproach. He’s the one who says people have to submit to their leaders. And since he’s the ultimate leader, and he has all the other leaders submitting to him, then he’s directly responsible for the mentality that has created the abuses of authority. As I said once, if he wanted to put a stop to the problems, he so easily could! He has more control over the men beneath him than the head of any other Christian organization that I’m aware of.
So the fact that he seems to be doing nothing to correct the various problems we’ve identified here on the site – and actually seems to be growing ever more puffed up about his authority, as is evidenced by the “How to Watch the Super Bowl” blog post and his willingness to offer “correction” to Mark Driscoll – makes me so puzzled.
It then occurred to me that perhaps the simple truth is that CJ Mahaney is an incredibly magnetic personality. Like, take away all the “God” stuff about him. Make him some non-Christian. And I bet he’d still have a following of some sort, whether it would be as a financial guru, or a diet advisor, or a CEO. There are those types of people who just exude warmth, charm, trustworthiness, and good humor. I mean, even before CJ was considered a “Reformed Big Dog” or even before he had a church of thousands, he still was able to gather around him several hundred young people for Bible studies. So his charm has little to do with his “advances” in his theology.
It’s my guess that the secret to the Teflon quality of CJ – why nobody seems capable of placing the blame for their spiritual abuse squarely at his doorstep – is because of his endearing personality.
And I think it might be good for people to separate a charming personality from the very real results of the policies that he’s put in place. And keeps in place.
March 9th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Hi, ReformedTeacher and Marlboro Man…
Thank you both for your comments. It’s a pleasure to have you join us.
ReformedTeacher, it’s funny to hear your observations about the SG kids that you teach. I don’t know how typical your experience is…the SGM kids that I knew were all over the map in terms of their education. Some were incredibly bright, well-read, and well-informed. Others weren’t so lucky. Yet I would agree with you that SGM folks who have been in the organization for awhile do have an overblown sense of their denomination’s impact on the Christian scene. Quite honestly, except for brief mentions here and there on various Reformed blogs that I read, I knew very little about CJ Mahaney before we attended our SGM church. He’s not quite up there with the other “Big Dogs” yet. But a lot of SG kids would never believe it.
Marlboro Man,
Your quote from Grudem is quite interesting. Something that fascinates me is what I think of as SGM’s “salad bar” approach to the theologians they like. Your Grudem example is textbook perfect to demonstrate what I mean. Another example would be how they say they’re “essentially Reformed” and yet truly do not THINK like any of the Reformed people I’ve known – particularly the ones who believe in “Covenant Theology” and practice paedobaptism. I’ve never known another group of “Reformed” individuals who were collectively so obsessed with “rooting out” their own sins. The truly Reformed folks I’ve known have taken a much more relaxed approach to sin-sniffing. :-)
So I think SGM leaders tend to pick and choose what they like from the great salad bar of beliefs. They like Grudem for his continuist views on the gifts of the Spirit, but they must disagree with his thinking on the term “Apostle.” Interesting. I wonder who gets to make that judgment call?
March 10th, 2008 at 12:08 am
Here’s a special message to a reader we’ll call “Barbie” (I think you know who you are! :-) )
Barbie, I received your email and wrote you back despite your saying that I didn’t need to. But my crazy email is messed up and my messages to you keep getting bounced back. So I’m going to post my response to you here, in case you are reading on the site tonight:
March 10th, 2008 at 12:12 am
ReformedTeacher,
I agree with you that many kids grow up in my SG church only being taught the SG view of doctrine. Many have not even heard the opposing views on thelogical issues, so they have not been able to reach a conviction about what they actually believe themselves. They just parrot the SG answer to keep out of trouble. I personally try to encourage these people to have the attitude of the Bereans who tested even Paul’s words according to Scripture.
March 10th, 2008 at 12:22 am
OK…You Guys!! I settled in to watch all those Lord of the Rings Movies, dealt with the whole day light savings time, got ready for church in record time, spent the day with friends, and I come back….and I have missed the whole party. But Tamara Rose said I was invited….so I feel better! Thanks!!
Anyway, welcome to all the new posters!!! Hope you guys have as much fun here as I do. I’ve learned much, healed much, and laughed much!!! But I haven’t slept much!!!
O.K. Tomorrow is my catch up day!! I am going to wake up early, Just so I can catch up. My girls have the car tomorrow, so I am home for many hours before my tutoring job, so it will be perfect. I will turn off the ringer, and just read away.
Can I just tell you how much I have enjoyed all of you!!!
Did we switch to instant messenger??? It seems like it!!!
March 10th, 2008 at 12:50 am
Okay, y’all. Wanted you to know I’m still here reading. Seems like it takes forever to read. Finally done; no time to post. Almost 2 a.m. Need sleep! But…
“Tu-mar-ra is uh-nutha daayee” (my lame effort to sound like Scarlett on GWTW…
March 10th, 2008 at 1:32 am
Reformed Teacher #389–
You know what? To be honest, I’m more suprised that they’d heard of the Taming of the Shrew character but not Luther. I was homeschooled all the way from preschool to highschool and had a curriculum heavily weighted in the favor of all things Christian History. When I got out of grade school I could tell you all about St Augustine and early church history and Dietrich Boenhoeffer and George Mueller and Spurgeon (I could have written a BOOK on Spurgeon) but if you had asked me to explain the Civil Rights movement or discuss Hamlet I’d have given you that blank stare. In many ways, I felt church history was the only history that existed – or at least the only one worth paying any attention. I knew more about Moody than FDR.
So, no, I’m not sure if what you experienced is typical… I would completely agree that SGM kids often think their world is the only world that exists but from my experience I perceived that the SGM world was paved by all those church fathers. The thing was, I didn’t realize there was much, much, much more to see on either side of the road than just by examining the pavement! (PD, the metaphor queen, strikes again! Mwahaha.) Actually, I was extremely surprised to hear that the kids didn’t know about Luther and Knox or even the story of Job. I read the Bible cover to cover on a yearly basis through high school and grew up reciting Bible verses before multiplication tables.
Kris, you made a great point about CJs charisma. Undoubtedly he’s just so excited and sincere-seeming and eager about everything that he’s just a powerful force to be around. People feel charged in his “aura”. (Eerily enough, many people describe most serial killers as “great guys” whom they’d never believe capable of such crimes… And didn’t Hitler have some of the best charisma ever seen?)
As a random funny to insert here…
My baby brother used to stay with us through worship up until he was three or so and started to get unruly. He’d ask in that repetitious way toddlers have what we were doing; the answer was always, “We’re going to worship Jesus!”
One day after a service, he and I were walking through the lobby and happened to run into CJ. He’s like fifty feet tall, so he knelt down to talk to my brother, who couldn’t have been quite two years old. The moment CJ got down onto his level, my brother eagerly smiled and shouted, “HI, JESUS!”
March 10th, 2008 at 3:55 am
Kris:
I believe Annie wanted my wife’s e-mail addy. Please feel free to give it to her. She may also have mine as well. Thanks
TK
March 10th, 2008 at 4:30 am
Marlboro:
Thanks for Grudem quote. I have his book. I will want to go back and check it out. My contention from Day #1 is that much of the heavy-handed “care” exercised by SGM is due to its understanding of authority, leadership, and ultimately its understanding that men such as CJ and Brent are “apostles.” Its use of the so-called “apostolic church” paradigm for church government effectively stifles any meaningful discussion or dissent at the congregational as well as the organizational level.
TK