We’ve had some fascinating discussions taking place over at the previous post, “Fear and Loathing in my ‘In’ Box.” But the “comments” section there is nearing 500 responses and is probably a pain to load for those working without a high-speed connection. So I decided we could continue the discussion here.
Feel free to share anything here that you wish, but some topics to consider addressing might be:
-
Why do so many Sovereign Grace Ministries ex-members still express fear when discussing their SGM experiences? After all, what could they possibly have to be afraid of?
-
As our commenter “Freeda Think” said, it might be interesting to discuss SGM’s use of fear and control. Do you think these are tactics deliberately employed? Perhaps some of you might want to do a little research and share what you discover. How would a Christian ministry reach a point where its people are afraid of leaving said ministry? Is fear ever a mark of a healthy or “normal” ministry?
-
Speaking of “normal” ministries…something that came up in our last discussion was the use of the “C” word (“CULT”) as it applies to Sovereign Grace Ministries. Quite some time ago, in this post, I asked people to weigh in on what makes a cult. Can a ministry proclaim the God and the Gospel of the Bible and yet still become a “cult” through their use of spiritual abuse and “cult-like methodologies”? [As a personal disclaimer here, I have an exceedingly difficult time with the use of this term for SGM! At the root of my discomfort is how I feel about the many dear Sovereign Grace people I know. I simply cannot think of them - individually - as "cult members"!] Yet several ex-SGM folks who post regularly here, and who have come across as very thoughtful, well-balanced, and educated, have in recent days suggested that in their opinions, SGM is indeed a “cult.” So perhaps we could discuss whether this term (“cult”) is simply too inflammatory, too pejorative, and too condemning to use for a “family of churches” that preach the Word of God.
All right, people. It’s time to get to work. Please join me in the discussion by posting a comment below.
I never got the "meeting" thing, either. 
March 10th, 2008 at 4:39 am
SGM Cas, you said, Ellie,
“The high council couldn’t find the answer? Heh. Some apostles you turned out to be. I call for a coup!’
I have ALL the answers! I am a high apostle! Now, what was the question? ;-)
March 10th, 2008 at 5:29 am
1) Welcome to the two latest posters, Marlboro Man and Reformed teacher.
2) Reformed teacher: Are you saying they DON’T know Calvin? I thought that was one of the Big Dogs in SGM. How sad that these kids are growing up with such a limited view of not just life but also Christian life. I fear for the lessons they will have to learn.
3) PDiddy,
I totally get what you’re saying in, was it post #378? I’ve always been an “all or nothing” person who thought things were either “all good” or “all bad.” So I completely understand that you come down gently on people you know and who have shown you their “good side.”
So don’t feel that you’re in an “argument” that’s over your head, or however you worded it. You’re processing and trying to stay balanced. It’s tough, I know!!
4) FreedaThink,
Yes, it DOES seem like we’ve been IM-ing!
5) Kris,
Yes, I do believe that some people, like CJ, have that illusive “It” quality that can’t be bought or learned in school. I think if it weren’t religion, it would be shoes, supplements, or real estate he’s be selling, as you indicated.
6) Whew…once again it’s impossible to catch up on everything, and I’m at work anyway and need to actually…work. Sigh…
March 10th, 2008 at 5:36 am
Oh wait–
“Barbie,”
I prayed Kris’ prayer for you. I truly feel for you! Last year this time I actually was afraid I wasn’t really saved because of some of the things my former friend in SG had told me. I actually laid awake at night pondering if deep down inside I was still too prideful to really be saved.
I was so distraught I made an appointment to see my pastor. Thank goodness for truly humble, insightful and knowledgable men like him. He talked me off the ledge, and one of the things he said was what Kris said to you in so many words: If you are laying awake pondering if you’re really saved, scared that God almighty can throw you in hell, and pray that you’re not too prideful to accept salvation, then guess what? YOU’RE SAVED! Degenerate souls don’t ponder these things!!”
So Barbie, just know that some of us have been right where you are. I pray you find the peace, joy, and comfort that the Holy Spirit longs to give to you!
Peace,
L
March 10th, 2008 at 5:55 am
Prodigal Daughter #398-
That story at the end is hilarious!
I haven’t posted much on here but I read all this with interest because I only visited an SGM church for a few months and never got into it. I remember the one time that CJ did come visit though, and the reaction was something I’ll never forget. Everything the pastors said in the weeks leading up to his visit about CJ just being like us and that sinful man shouldn’t be raised up on a pedestal (did those guys truly believe that?) was thrown out the window as soon as he got on the stage. I just sat there during the standing O. Some of the looks I got for just sitting there were amazing.
March 10th, 2008 at 6:03 am
NGB,
I’m sure it took a lot of courage not to stand up — good for you.
March 10th, 2008 at 7:23 am
March 10th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Kris:
It is sad, truly sad, that a lot of SG folks know little about history, church or secular. In most of the “debates” I have had with SG folks on this site-and others-there is an overwhelming ignorance of anything sans-CJ, Brent, or SG. Remember Tony? I liked the guy, but when we got into a discussion about church government, he was outta his league. And he was actually one of the more informed ones I have encountered.
March 10th, 2008 at 8:53 am
Hi ReformedTeacher,
You wrote:
This is so true! No time to be led by the Spirit because you always have a mee-Ting or a conference to get ready for, and of course being in a meeting supports the local church and that’s God’s will for you, and the local church is where all of our time and energy is to be invested! It’s not necessary to think for yourself because that’s the job the leadership has taken upon themselves along with telling you what books to read, and heaven forbid if you have a contrary thought! (Not that you would have time to think differently because you are either in a meeting, coming home from a meeting, or preparing to go to a meeting!)
MarlboroMan,
Great quote by Grudem! Thanks for taking the time to post that, it was really helpful. That really sums it up! There are no apostles today and its presumption to assume the title, regardless of their attempts at redefining the use of the word. (I wish I would have understood this problem much, much sooner. I believe this issue reveals the root problem.)
March 10th, 2008 at 9:04 am
Claireon:
Amen! I’ve been beating that drum-the whole “apostles” thing-since I first discovered this site. It is the ROOT issue, and we gotta lay the axe to the root!
TK
March 10th, 2008 at 9:11 am
BTW, check out Grudem on pp. 928-936 as well.
TK
March 10th, 2008 at 9:22 am
Hi TK,
I think the problem is with our gullibility as Christians. Most seem to just go with the flow. Self proclaimed apostles – no problem. Sign a covenant agreement – where’s the pen? Anything to be a part of the SPECIAL group. Of course to them it is not gulliblity. it is trust! Not too many Bereans out there today. We are like “lambs to the slaughter.” What’s next – a Koolaid party? No problem! I will sacrifice my life for the Lord! Where do I sign up?
March 10th, 2008 at 9:30 am
Dennis:
I disagree/agree-to an extent. Yes, there are Christians who are easily tricked. But the so-called “apostolic church government” modality is false. Period. And it ain’t just infected SGM. I can name SEVERAL prominent ministries/movements which have swayed by its deceptive charms only to descend into spiritual fascism.
We must smash this idol and burn its ashes.
March 10th, 2008 at 9:37 am
Hi TK,
As you have pointed out, most Christians do not search out these matters for themselves. They let the pastors and teachers do all of their study for them. So when a chasmatic teacher comes along like C J, the crowd will easily follow. Pretty much, whatever he says is regarded as wisdom from the Lord. That is why I use the term gullible. And no, I was not just referring to SGM.
March 10th, 2008 at 9:40 am
I gotta run but I thought I would throw in this thought for the day:
SGM:
Shut up! and Give us your Money!
March 10th, 2008 at 9:41 am
Dennis:
Understood. I remember many care groups where we NEVER actually checked out the Scriptures but discussed the sermon. Most of the time our Bibles were never opened.
We must defile this modern-day Topeth of the false teaching of “apostolic church government.”
March 10th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Hi TK,
I agree 100%. This whole church polity issue with Apostolic leadership is totally bogus. Anyone with the gift of teaching can stand up these days and claim the title of an apostle. After all, as far as titles go, there is only one title that is higher, and most will not go that far! (Although some have)
March 10th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Dennis:
Amen!
TK
March 10th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Dennis:
You said:
I think the problem is with our gullibility as Christians. Most seem to just go with the flow. Self proclaimed apostles – no problem. Sign a covenant agreement – where’s the pen? Anything to be a part of the SPECIAL group. Of course to them it is not gulliblity. it is trust! Not too many Bereans out there today. We are like “lambs to the slaughter.” What’s next – a Koolaid party? No problem! I will sacrifice my life for the Lord! Where do I sign up?
I hate to say it….but you are so right. Why do I hate to say it??? Because I have to include myself among the gullible. We are without excuse though. We live in the 21st century and we have all the information regarding church history, the abuses of the church, the scriptures in almost every written language. That is why I can’t blame SGM for the bad taste it left in my mouth. I blame myself. I should have done my homework. It just looked so good and enticing. But, shame on me for ignoring cognitive dissonance and not doing my own research. They are out there with their wacky beliefs. I just bought right in. Never again.
March 10th, 2008 at 10:15 am
High Church:
As they say in “Eretz Yisarael,” NEVER AGAIN!
BTW, you missed an awesome party!
Glad to hear that I actually know you! Do you remember letting my son ride with you back from Celebration?
TK
March 10th, 2008 at 10:21 am
….um….King…I asked you yesterday….
(lol!)
Sad but true…
March 10th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Ellie:
I’m Irish and attention-deficit. I forgot. …: shuffles :… away to take his meds-I mean drink his caffeine…
TK
March 10th, 2008 at 10:32 am
Hi HC,
I was even worse. I had just spent 10 years in another very controlling cultish chuch before coming to SGM for another 10 years in deception! Boy, talk about dense! And now I don’t trust anyone. That’s why this blog is so refreshing. We can all share our views and agree or disagree. Isn’t that the way a healthy church should be? When everyone is always in agreement, that is how cults get started. Cookie cutter, follow the leader Christians.
I like a good old fashioned knock-down, drag-out, once in a while! It makes things exciting and interesting! SGM Cas knows how to throw a good punch once in while! I like that! Then we let the dust settle, and then forgive and move on. Good stuff!
March 10th, 2008 at 11:05 am
Dennis:
Wanna box? ;-)
TK
March 10th, 2008 at 11:13 am
King and Dennis, get yourselves over to the new thread!
March 10th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Can I just say that not all homeschoolers are like those at SGM? We have homeschooled for a long, long, long time….way before ever going to SGM. Our kids were not and are not nearly as ignorant as the other kids in our SGM church. I don’t mean that to sound smug, but it’s true…our kids would try to have conversations and the other kids would stare blankly at them, much like Reformed Teacher describes (welcome, btw) Our decision to homeschool was based on educational reasons, not spiritual reasons, so that may have been part of the difference. :-D The school system here in FL is woefully lacking. We tried EI in school till 2nd grade, when even his teachers started recommending homeschool for him, because they could not keep up w/him. So…that started us on the homeschool journey. But imagine, if you can, that even among those at a church where HS is the only way, we didn’t fit in! Because we actually believe that ACADEMICS are important…shudder, shudder. I still remember one dad telling me that it just wasn’t important that his 3 daughters learn anything in school, since they were being groomed to marry young and be housewives, mothers. And I was considered a rebellious heretic with this being one big nail in that coffin! Anyway………..just had to point out that not all homeschoolers are homeschooled the SGM way :-)
March 10th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Yeh!!! where are you guys??? Where is chivalry when we need it???? Other thread..guys!
March 10th, 2008 at 11:29 am
ExIM — 425, I know they aren’t. I used to homeschool mine, and it was about academics and not having him drugged at a young age. Now that he’s older I prefer him drugged. Both of us.
March 10th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
@ Kris (#406): You were wrong, too. ;)
MLK Jr. was quoting a 19th-century “negro spiritual” by J. W. Work.
And I think the CCM recording you’re referring was actually a DC Talk song. I don’t remember the Newsboys performing any song with those words, though I’ll admit I didn’t really start listening to them until their Going Public album.
Sorry. I’ll go back to my Steven Curtis Chapman collection now. ;)
March 10th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Reformed Teacher
The kids seem convinced that the Ten commandments Moses drug down Sinai can be summed up in one sentence: For the sake of all that is holy, don’t DATE!
First of all welcome the blog and thanks for sharing your perceptions.
You might be interested in my blog which is a critique on “kissing dating goodbye.”
I kissed Dating Goodbye: Wisdom or Foolishness
I believe it was exintern who recently shared that Josh Harris did a reversal on his book but then appeared to be overruled on doing this by Brett Detweiler.
Welcome again.
There sure were a lot of posts today. Hard to keep up and work.
March 10th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Travis -
You’re right. It was DC Talk she quoted, not Newsboys.
But the line was made a part of our collective national consciousness by MLK jr., and it’s sad that this girl did not know that. That was my point.
March 10th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Kris,
Briefly I was saved in 1978 and pretty much jumped right into the charismatic/shepherding movement being heavily influenced by Derek Prince. From 1984-1986 a church influenced by Earl Paulk and then another 6 years ,word of faith followed by other non denominational churches whose pastors are on FACTNET.
Not pretty. I then found a PCA and only over the past two years dip my toes into a quasi healthy charismatic church every three months or so.
Next stops will be AOG, if I kind find a good one or Evangelical Free or Christian Missionary Alliance. It is doubtful I will ever really join a church again. I will attend and tithe and be involved but I know too much now. I hate to let go of healthy charismatic teaching but I may have too. Sound pentecostal schloarship is hard to find.
March 10th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
P-D -
Re #359
You said:
“Most of us mention how loved and welcomed we felt on first attendance but not so much after we were officially tied to the church!”
I totally agree -I would say this was my very First red flag! I remember calling friends who weren’t totally satisfied in their churches and telling them “You gotta come check out this church.” I can’t sit there 5 minutes without someone coming up and introducing themselves to me”, which occurred for about the first 2 months or so.. And the first few weeks we were invited to lunch to a couple of people’s homes, but those dates didn’t work out and they didn’t bother reschedule with us, nor did they ever invite us again. I later found out that was their JOB in the church – their ministry of welcoming newcomers. Like I said, after about two, maybe three months, people stopped coming up to us/me and introducing themselves – and there were still lots of people I didn’t know. And I remember sitting there thinking, it’s not really different here than anywhere else, as far as the friendship thing goes. Everyone’s talking to people they know; everyone who was going to be friendly enough to introduce themselves and welcome unfamiliar faces, already has, and now I’m invisible. We’ve had many families over to our home and very few have invited us. But I do have to say that this is very common in the area that I live and it was the same in the last church we were at for many years.
“I continued to attend for some time after the day when my membership ceremony should have taken place based on my birthday (that’s another thing…do most legitimate churches practice membership ceremonies??) and was treated with a mingled sense of pity and condescension from my peers thereafter….
Are you serious?! A membership ceremony? That’s probably done just so those who don’t join feel less loved and less valuable (as was mentioned on one of the other threads) and therefore feel the pressure to become a member. (You don’t want to be an outsider, do you?) Just another form of coercion.
I agree with you additional assessments of a cult. And I thought of something else.
Uh Oh. I just got an important call, I gotta go. I don’t know when I can return.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:12 am
Kris
I know this post is “old” (posted two days ago) ;-) but thought I would say that I agree with you Kris.
He has that emotional selling presence
It certainly isn’t he biblical teaching that attracts people to him and what he says. When he speaks he rarely teaches from the scripture. In the majority of cases he may read one passage of Scripture are the beginning and then speak the rest of the time exhorting . If he was in seminary he would have been given an “F” for his “exegesis” on the message about “sovereign grace that he gave but “A” for the emotional appeal he sold it with.
As has been said before, it does shock me that a group so relies on a person who rarely if ever has an original thought and seems to be a reader of books rather than one who reads and studies the bible.
As others have said before, a lot of bad leaders including dictators have had this type of charisma that have enabled them to be in power for so long.
May 5th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Hey,
I dont know were to ask this question.
I am still a part of a sovgrace church, but questioning hence the name.
I was in community group last night, still in the college age group. So our leader had a bit of an icebreaker game in which we had to think of anyone from history and tell what question we would ask them them if given the chance.
Someone said they would Talk to Paul, and ask him what he thinks of sovgrace as a whole, seeing as sovgrace is suppose to be baised around his ministry.
What would paul think?
sorry if this is the wrong place to say this.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Hi, Questioner…
Welcome to the site, and thanks for your comment.
I think I’m going to put up your comment on the message board, if that’s OK. You may get some additional feedback, besides what people will write here.
Your question is very interesting. My own “take” on it is that Paul would be astonished that such a rigid system could have developed, supposedly based upon his writings. Considering what Paul had to say about grace and freedom, I don’t see that he would have been very happy with a lot of SGM’s oddities.
That’s my take on things – does anyone else have anything to add?
May 6th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
I thought that I was the only one that picked up on that.
SGM Does seem to put a lot of emphasis on Pauline teachings as they pertain more to the church, while the gospels are focused on the individual.
They are building Gods church, not Ambassadors.
Interestingly, when dealing with individuals, it is from Paul where they usually stay in scripture when quoting or for application as well.
May 6th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
That’s interesting, Chris! You should post it over on the board, where Kris posted Questioner’s question.
Ellie
May 8th, 2008 at 9:44 am
Yeah, I think systematic theology could also contribute to giving Pauline writings or other epistles a bad name. These rigid systems I think contributed to some friends of mine rejecting the new testament letters as uninspired.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:49 am
[...] poor leadership that’s been allowed to fester in Sovereign Grace Ministries, due to years of fear, control, and cultic tactics. It’s heartbreaking to hear some of the stories from former members; moreso to hear the [...]