Today, on the message board, someone asked if Guy and I had changed our thinking and now had an “ax to grind” with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Here was my reply:
You know, we still don’t have an ax to grind. That part holds true. So often, I will think about this site and how weird it is that God sort of threw it into our laps. We have about as tenuous a connection to SGM as you could have and still know enough about the movement to discuss it (somewhat) intelligently.
But I have to say, after 4 months of doing this whole thing, after 4 months of literally weeping over emails that have flooded my “in” box, after 4 months of learning more than anyone EVER would want to know, I’ve come to think that SGM isn’t exactly your garden variety “just another denomination.” And the hurting people who have written to me are not your garden variety “typical small percentage of disgruntled folks.”
I think it’s a lot deeper and more serious than that. I really do.
I would never go so far as to call SGM a cult. I still can’t go there, despite all the people who keep urging me to think that way. But I think SGM is propagating some SERIOUS errors that have done some SERIOUS damage to quite a number of people.
I also firmly believe that they are in desperate need of repentance. First of all, they need to repent for the damage they’ve done to all those who did not fit the SGM pattern of what a “good Christian” should look like. SGM leadership did not treat the weak, the hurting, the damaged, the needy with anything resembling the love of Christ. Instead, they’ve been harsh, judgmental, and downright Pharisaical toward these people. They’ve attempted “discipline” and punishment when understanding and a listening ear would have sufficed. They’ve castigated professional psychological help, told people with psychiatric issues that such help is sinful, and that they are only allowed to get “Godly” counsel from their pastors or other leaders. And then, when the damaged and the hurting have turned to leadership for help, more often than not, they’ve found themselves on the receiving end of commands to pull themselves up by their (broken) bootstraps.
SGM’s hierarchal, pyramid-like leadership structure has also contributed to this problem. Submission and humility flow one way: upward. Only one kind of person is lauded, honored, and held up as exemplary and worthy: the type that would fit in with leadership. Consequently, the people who get the good care within SGM, the people who get all the strokes and the love and the acceptance, are the people who need it the least. If you already look the part and could pass for one of Seedge and Carolyn’s kids, you’ll be fine, especially if you’re a productive and tidy member of society. But if you’re a clumsy slob, just forget about it. You’re going to have to clean up your act before you’ll get to experience the particular type of “Christian” love dispensed at SGM.
This is the exact opposite of God’s economy. In God’s economy, the weak are strong, the foolish things confound the wise, the first are the last, and whatever we do for the “least of these,” we do unto Christ Himself. In God’s economy, ministering to a seriously depressed and downtrodden abused wife is far more important than sucking up to Seedge by making him his favorite raspberry-chocolate cake.
So…
No, we still have no ax to grind, and we probably wouldn’t go on the record as strongly as Dennis, for instance, has, urging people to flee SGM. But God is calling many in SGM leadership – and there are a few in particular who have ESPECIALLY perpetrated horrible evils on the downtrodden, cruelly manipulating and denigrating people in a way that can only be inspired by the devil himself – to repentance. He wants them to go back and APOLOGIZE to those they have wronged. He wants them to go back and seek forgiveness for the harsh discipline, the gossipy “family meeting” sessions where misinformation (lies) were deliberately spread to cover leadership’s backsides and salvage SGM’s falsely glossy image. God wants these men (and for sure, the wife of one of these men) (and, if you’re reading this, you KNOW WHO YOU ARE) to throw themselves down at his feet and plead Jesus’ blood over their wrongdoings. Then He wants them to go back and, to the best of their ability, make it right, by turning their thinking upside down.
Bottom line with what is wrong with SGM: being a good Christian is NOT about “serving your leaders.” It is about serving “the least of these.” Quit baking cakes for Seedge. Quit sucking up to the “apostles” (or whatever puffed-up title they’re going by nowadays). Quit loving only the lovable. Get down on your knees and wash the feet of someone you’ve been scorning for not having it all together.
Quit adding to Scripture. Quit teaching specifics about things that God didn’t mean to be specific. Quit adding to the Gospel. Quit worshiping the empty cross and instead worship the risen Jesus who rules and reigns. Quit attempting to be junior Holy Spirits, and instead, humble yourselves and invite the Holy Spirit to shine the same searching unflinching spotlight on your own hearts that you’ve shone for so long on the lives of others.
I may have missed something. But I am feeling very prophetic at the moment. This is burning in me. So I will say it: HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD.
My dear young brother/sister, could you please clarify?I can't tell, did you mean that sgm is too... 
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:18 pm
With respect to Kris I will answer the question vary short, and then I will not post anymore on this as she has requested.
“Faith comes by hearing”
“Go preach the Gospel to all creation”
I need say nomore
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:20 pm
After reading a few more comments, I wanted to reply to a few folks:
@ Curious – you said “I probably should have just “walked” back out”. I agree, if someone wasn’t personally affected or is not currently involved, then this blog probably isn’t the place for them. It will just seem like useless banter, and malice towards a ministry. I cannot speak for everyone, but I know a wounded soul when I see one and there are several here.
@Butterfly. I am so sorry to hear your story. Although it should surprise me, it doesn’t. It breaks my heart that people with good intentions (SGM pastors) have ended up in a system that can be very hurtful and damaging to people. If I wasn’t 100% familiar with experiences like yours, I might think you were just another bitter soul who left the church on bad terms, but I know this is not true. I know more than one person who isn’t even alive anymore (both suicides) and wonder if they had received better counsel (or counseling, or meds – yes I know first hand that God uses those although SGM doesn’t get that), if they would have survived the attack of the enemy on their life and still be here. Again, I am sorry that you experienced this but I pray that gives you “exceedingly abundantly more than you can expect or imagine”.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Doc –
Make sure to take a trip over to the message board when you get a chance.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Snarlingdogmonk,
I never asked you not to comment…just not to pull your “Doctrine Police” thing unless you have something specific to say about SGM. And unless you fully understand that a lot of people won’t care what you think of their doctrine.
Dr. Drew,
Thanks for your comments.
April 3rd, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Dear Dr. Drew,
Thanks for your comments, and welcome back.
And as Guy said, when you get the time, please do come over to the message board.
April 4th, 2008 at 6:26 am
I dont know how i got the doctrine police label. but um could some one give me a badge or something. Cause that would be pretty cool :smile: for the um unspecified record i am in agreement with monk about the empty cross thing, but let me specify. i also realise that you folks may speak a different form of Christianese. and as such may mean something entirely different then reads at first glance. i would also like to add that I am not interested in policing your doctrine. Not yet at least
its not my problem. however due to our first interaction and my public apology for my bedside manner and subsequent behavior it should only be natural to expect some how shall i say migration between our respective homes. with that said. Kris or Guy i would like one of you fine folks to email me so i can share with you why we as a blog exisist. it is not to police the internet. we exsist for some of the same reasons you do however our methodology is quite different. i have been reading your site as i get the time. i will have questions in the future. with respect to you however i am wondering if it would not be better if i were just to email you with them. let me know.
I hope you are all haveing a blessed friday.
The grey coats :smile:
April 4th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Dr. Drew, (any relation to Nancy? As a curious reader, I love Nancy Drew!)
You said:
@ Curious – you said “I probably should have just “walked” back out”. I agree, if someone wasn’t personally affected or is not currently involved, then this blog probably isn’t the place for them. It will just seem like useless banter, and malice towards a ministry.
You are exactly right. I tried explaining that it did seem like you described (not always graciously) to an “outsider” but failed. I probably should walk away, but now that I’m “buddies” with Guy, I might stick around and try to understand what really happened to these wounded souls. Because if my accusations of “griping” were inaccurate, then the alternative must be unsettling…
April 4th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Curious…your accusations of griping are inaccurate and yes, the alternatives are very unsettling indeed………..
btw, thank you for answering my questions :-)
April 4th, 2008 at 10:29 am
I’m glad to see both you (Curious Reader) and Jarrod stick around and be able to understand a little more. I was fearful at first, because I’ve had a lot of experiences with people making a judgment before they know the story, and they don’t ever feel a need to change that judgment. In other words, they were unreasonable people. Unfortunately before SGM I never met people like that so distinctively. I don’t know why they exist or how they can exist (outside of movie villains or historical figures), but I must say the Bible warns me of those kind of Christians in my own interpretation of it.
The worst part of it all is it was people who were older and that I naturally looked up to thinking that they might have good wisdom. Somehow they achieved too much authority over my life (became judges of my sin and personality because of being granted authority over my relationship with a girl), and siezed that opportunity to make an example of me because I didn’t fit their mold. You can find this sort of judgmentalness in tight-knit secular cultures also (my Vietnamese friend experienced this sort of shunning on a smaller level when he was divorced for example).
If I did not have such support with my family and friends who I had shared this stuff with I might have been suicidal. In fact when I told my parents (after the pastors and father of the girl decided to “convict” me and end my relationship abruptly without caring about my thoughts) that I didn’t know how to move on in life, my parents got extremely worried of suicide.
Anyways, I am really glad you guys are here and to see the progression to be understanding of us.
April 4th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Hi, my name is Anne (Hi, Anne) and I am a SG survivor. I started attending right after college graduation in 1986–and stayed there, miserably trying to be godly enough to be accepted. I married a former TAGer who got the “men rule” part, but not the “servant leadership” or the “support your family” parts. So I went to work, had a baby and prayed that my husband would step up so we wouldn’t starve and began church counseling.
Eventually I went to work to provide for our little family and prayed. The church went through Biblical Counseling and all that focus on my sinfulness and the three trees and replacing bad fruit with good fruit scared me. My child didn’t quite fit the mold–now I know that he has both LD and ED issues, but then I thought it was just me. I hated the Ferberizing. I hated the moralizing about how harmful watching Arthur on PBS was. I didn’t want to spank a toddler–and hated to hear about moms who had spanked their kid 10 times that morning only to discover he had an ear infection. My husband left marks on our toddler–that my mom photographed. I should have left then.
My boy started at CLS in kindergarden, but he learned differently and slowly and melted down when the principal tried to spank him. So we withdrew him and put him in public schools where his individual needs would be addressed better.
We had another baby. Our new care group decorated the door and brought food. The CG leader and the pastor counseled my husband again about providing for the family. We talked about the “anger” issues at home. The answer was more prayer, more submission on my part, more church counseling. I started working fulltime, so we might find some minimal financial security (a small townhouse).
My beautiful 8 year old grew so despairing that he talked about drowning himself in the bathtub–our first trip to the ER soon followed, and meds, and a therapist. She wondered why he was so angry. His father tried to discipline him by casting out demons, by pinning him to the floor, by punching holes in the wall/door and more. He regularly told me that I should be grateful that he still wanted me, that we didn’t deserve nice things or kindness, that the LORD had told him to pursue this opportunity and someday it will all pay off, and on and on. He refused to pray with me because I didn’t have a prayer language. My despair grew–I had no girlfriends at church (in part because I was employed not home, my kid was in public school not at CLS or homeschooled, and there just isn’t enough time to seek out those who aren’t in the carpool lane with you, especially those who are bruised reeds), my home life was so NOT CLC, and my extended family just wanted me out of there.
I did not sign the Covenant–it worried me, smacking of The Scarlet Letter and The Crucible. I grew increasingly frustrated with the pastors’ attempts to address serious mental illness as sin, to see abuse as just another opportunity to practice peacemaking and to complete a three-trees model, to be handed Puritan texts (like the Doctrine of Repentance) as if they were the cure-all, and more.
However, when my son was hospitalized again in 2005 and I thought it very likely that Child Protective Services would be “visiting”, they did agree to let the Care Group help me get my husband out of the house. Periodically we would meet together with the pastors to continue counsellng–and he grew increasingly hostile with them until he was disfellowshipped in 2007. He still attends CLC regularly.
In October, I attended my last Sunday morning service at CLC when the ladies were singing and dancing about submission–and have not been back since. I’ve done some church shopping–and am attending lovely Episcopal church that is radically welcoming, non-hierarchical, with both male and female ministers. My son enjoys the Sunday evening service which gets it all done in 45 minutes–after years of messages alone that lasted that long (even in the youth meetings). My daughter alternates–a week with Dad and a week with Mom.
When I read about the Castillo children–and what that Mom went through–and saw that she had only sought a “limited divorce” (basically a legal separation) I wondered if her pastors had told her that divorce was forbidden (except in cases of adultery)–as the CLC pastors had told me and other wives in abusive marriages. And I wept–as I did again reading the stories on this blog. Why? Why? Why? Why?
God has been so faithful to keep me close to Himself, to speak to me in the wilderness.
“And yet, I feel confident in this, I will see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living.”
April 4th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Hi, my name is Anne (Hi, Anne) and I am a SG survivor. I started attending right after college graduation in 1986–and stayed there, miserably trying to be godly enough to be accepted. I married a former TAGer who got the “men rule” part, but not the “servant leadership” or the “support your family” parts. So I went to work, had a baby and prayed that my husband would step up so we wouldn’t starve and began church counseling.
Eventually I went to work to provide for our little family and prayed. The church went through Biblical Counseling and all that focus on my sinfulness and the three trees and replacing bad fruit with good fruit scared me. My child didn’t quite fit the mold–now I know that he has both LD and ED issues, but then I thought it was just me. I hated the Ferberizing. I hated the moralizing about how harmful watching Arthur on PBS was. I didn’t want to spank a toddler–and hated to hear about moms who had spanked their kid 10 times that morning only to discover he had an ear infection. My husband left marks on our toddler–that my mom photographed. I should have left then.
My boy started at CLS in kindergarden, but he learned differently and slowly and melted down when the principal tried to spank him. So we withdrew him and put him in public schools where his individual needs would be addressed better.
We had another baby. Our new care group decorated the door and brought food. The CG leader and the pastor counseled my husband again about providing for the family. We talked about the “anger” issues at home. The answer was more prayer, more submission on my part, more church counseling. I started working fulltime, so we might find some minimal financial security (a small townhouse).
My beautiful 8 year old grew so despairing that he talked about drowning himself in the bathtub–our first trip to the ER soon followed, and meds, and a therapist. She wondered why he was so angry. His father tried to discipline him by casting out demons, by pinning him to the floor, by punching holes in the wall/door and more. He regularly told me that I should be grateful that he still wanted me, that we didn’t deserve nice things or kindness, that the LORD had told him to pursue this opportunity and someday it will all pay off, and on and on. He refused to pray with me because I didn’t have a prayer language. My despair grew–I had no girlfriends at church (in part because I was employed not home, my kid was in public school not at CLS or homeschooled, and there just isn’t enough time to seek out those who aren’t in the carpool lane with you, especially those who are bruised reeds), my home life was so NOT CLC, and my extended family just wanted me out of there.
I did not sign the Covenant–it worried me, smacking of The Scarlet Letter and The Crucible. I grew increasingly frustrated with the pastors’ attempts to address serious mental illness as sin, to see abuse as just another opportunity to practice peacemaking and to complete a three-trees model, to be handed Puritan texts (like the Doctrine of Repentance) as if they were the cure-all, and more.
However, when my son was hospitalized again in 2005 and I thought it very likely that Child Protective Services would be “visiting”, they did agree to let the Care Group help me get my husband out of the house. Periodically we would meet together with the pastors to continue counsellng–and he grew increasingly hostile with them until he was disfellowshipped in 2007. He still attends CLC regularly.
In October, I attended my last Sunday morning service at CLC when the ladies were singing and dancing about submission–and have not been back since. I’ve done some church shopping–and am attending lovely Episcopal church that is radically welcoming, non-hierarchical, with both male and female ministers. My son enjoys the Sunday evening service which gets it all done in 45 minutes–after years of messages alone that lasted that long (even in the youth meetings). My daughter alternates–a week with Dad and a week with Mom.
When I read about the Castillo children–and what that Mom went through–and saw that she had only sought a “limited divorce” (basically a legal separation) I wondered if her pastors had told her that divorce was forbidden (except in cases of adultery)–as the CLC pastors had told me and other wives in abusive marriages. And I wept–as I did again reading the stories on this blog. Why? Why? Why? Why?
God has been so faithful to keep me close to Himself, to speak to me in the wilderness.
“And yet, I feel confident in this, I will see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living.”
April 4th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
I want to respond to your post, Roger, and I hope that what I have to say does not come across as ungracious. That is not my intent. I do hope and pray that God will guide you as you make future decisions about aligning with SGM. However, there is quite a lot in your post that concerns me.
You say that you are saddened that so many have been hurt by SGM, but this comment is tempered by further remarks such as noting a root of bitterness, that you say is a growing root in some. Funny, but I have been blown away by the lack of bitterness expressed on this blog, in spite of the pain and suffereing represented here. What I have seen over and over is pain, regret, sadness, fear….and yet, in the midst of all those emotions, a desire to see SGM repent and be restored to the real calling of God, that most believe it started as. The people on this blog pray for the pastors of their former SGM churches, and for those still involved.
Comments such as “just the facts ma’m”, “where’s the beef?” and “name calling went out with Rudolph” are rather patronizing and belittling. Perhaps that was not the tone you intended, but this blog is about some very serious abuse and very intense suffering….if you have spent any time on this site at all, I believe that you would be aware of these and strive to not come across as if you are trivializing the experiences shared on this site.
You state that anonymity takes away from our credibility. Speaking for myself, I am not here to prove anything, establish any credibility, or document evidence. I am here as a member of a group that has experienced substantial abuse of power at the hands of SGM leadership and who is very concerned that the abuse will continue if this group of people does not repent. A lot of the people on this site have personally confronted the offending leadership and have been ignored, disfellowshipped, had lies told about them, and/or have been treated as if they were in sin for even daring to discuss areas of concern. We are anonymous, because we seek to protect our families from further abuse, especially those of our families who remain w/in the SGM compound…not because we being secretive, slanderous or too bitter to want restoration. You forget that MANY of us confronted our abusers in person…..not in anonymity….to no avail, or worse, to the detriment of our family and friends. There is no way that I would expose them over the Internet! And, Roger, when you say that many are relunctant to divulge specifics for fear of….fill in the blank, you make it sound as if we are just running a bunch of generic, unfounded excuses. Saying “fill in the blank” essentially comes across as saying “blah, blah, blah, blah, blah”……in other words, it is dismissive.
You also said that anonymity will not lead to biblical restoration. Again, speaking for myself, I do not see this blog as an avenue of restoration, particularly since the majority of proSGMers come here to attack, not to understand. The avenue for that is in person, face to face, with the abusers. BTDT. Was treated like crap, lied about, gossiped about….um, by the pastors. I see this blog as a healing place, a place of validation and encouragement. I also see this blog as a place to dialogue w/those who remain in SGM, who have been unaware of the abuses, and whom we can hopefully help to see the reality of what goes on in SGM.
Roger, you say that we should encourage each other with Scripture, rather than simply venting. Spend some time here reading, because if you do, you will find that this is exactly what is taking place. Venting is different than sharing pain….and to dismiss the sharing of that pain as simple ‘venting’ is to shoot the wounded. We share the pain, we validate the experiences, we share Scripture, pray for each other, lift each other up, and yes, have even offered correction and apologies in humility, as is the way of a Christian community.
If, when you read this site, you see a bunch of venting, name calling, bitter people who have taken offense when none was given, rather than a group of abused, hurting brothers and sisters who occassionally express their pain in less than ideal fashion, but mostly seek to share the burdens of their fellow soldiers with compassion, concern, and prayer, then I have to wonder if you came here with an agenda already in place, rather than as one genuinely seeking to know the other side of SGM as you lead your family. If you cannot see the truth that is represented here, then you are already deceived my brother….and I will pray all the more for the blinders to be removed.
April 4th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Hi, Anne…
Welcome to the site, and thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I am so sorry that you had to go through all of that. And yet I’m thankful that you’re finding a way out.
I think that your story demonstrates a sad truth about SGM – that when it does not work for someone, it tends to REALLY not work. And that SGM isn’t well-equipped to handle the individuals who don’t fit their paradigm. Yet those “non-normative” souls are the very ones who are so precious in God’s sight.
Blessings to you, Anne! :smile:
April 4th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Wow, Exinternsmom,
I hope that Roger will return and read your post. He and his family have been in my prayers the last few days.
April 4th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Anne,
My heart breaks for you as I read your story. I was tormented with the no divorce rule. I had no hope in my life and was suicidal because of the rejection from my husband and my closest friends. One day on my way home from work I thought, “when I get home I am going to chop off my legs because it will make me feel better” I had no concept of death, or pain, or suffering. I just thought that would bring me relief. My husband knew I was in a bad way and said he wouldn’t leave me alone that night.
Anyway, when they take God out of your life by saying you aren’t good enough, and they say you can’t divorce because God hates divorce.. You have no hope and no way out of the abuse. I prayed earnestly and felt God release me to go. Although God hates divorce Moses allowed it. I divorced and choose to stay single since my divorce was for reasons other than adultry. But, I also think that as much as God hates divorce, God hates abuse. And unlike SGM I think the divorce is not the sole responsibilty off the party that files for the divorce in court. The abuser has blame and so does the man that says do what I say or don’t come home. They are not without excuse.
I will pray that indeed you will see the goodness of God in the land of the living. He is good and He loves you with an EVERLASTING love.
Thanks for sharing your story and know that here is a place of healing and hope and truth. May God minister to your heart and give you peace.
PS. I have wondered if anyone else remembered the three trees and I was going to ask.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
Anne, your story breaks my heart. I’m so sorry for what you went through, what your son went through. It is stories like yours that demands we no longer keep silent. ….I’m glad that you found your way here.
Kris, I hope that Roger reads it too….but if not, perhaps it will encourage others who are here, who are in denial, deceived and/or on the attack. This blog is a breath of fresh air and truth is being shared. Like you, though, I have been praying for Roger the last couple days as well as praying about whether or not I should respond.
On that note, thanks again for this community, Kris…for it truly is that.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Welcome Anne…you’re safe here.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Hi, I ran across this blog while investigating SGM. My question is, why only SGM, why not also the Southern Baptist Convention, or the PCA among many other denominations? It seems to me that folks get hurt in the church as a whole. Is it the doctrines of SGM as a whole, or just one SG church in particular?
Thank you
April 4th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Neutral -
Because it’s SGMSurvivors, not SBC/PCA survivors.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Hi Guy. Is there a compilation of testimonies on this blog, or are they all scattered? I would like to read more stories like Anne’s.
Thank you.
April 5th, 2008 at 12:01 am
People get hurt in other churches besides SGM. That’s definitely true. But SGM’s hurting people seem like a different group in that almost all their stories contain the EXACT SAME TRENDS, just played out in different ways.
So that makes me think that there’s something in the combination of SGM’s teachings, practices, and structures that has made them vulnerable to these trends.
I’d say it comes down to a few things.
The biggest, of course, is how they view authority. Although all Sovereign Grace leaders would enthusiastically declare themselves to be “the worst sinners they know,” they nonetheless participate in a pyramid-shaped structure of accountability, where they only answer to the men above them in the pyramid. The more powerful one gets in this structure, the fewer people to whom one is formally accountable. If they truly believed in their own tendency to sin and succumb to their own sinful natures, they’d know that even pagans have asserted that “absolute power corrupts absolutely.” They’d build into their leadership set-up some sort of system whereby they would have to answer to their people.
Also, CJ Mahaney teaches that it is the people’s duty to obey and submit and thus make their pastors’ jobs pleasurable. If your pastor is not successful at his job (or in other words, if you’re seeing a fault in him), it is because YOU are not doing your part in properly submitting to him. Otherwise, if everyone were submitting, you wouldn’t be bothered by his faults.
Mix that with SGM’s teachings about indwelling sin, their very homogenous cultural expectations, their extra-Biblical “helpful life advice” that ends up turning into what lots of people view as Biblical mandates, and their VERY uniform “franchise” tendencies when implementing new teachings, and you really do have a “family of churches” that is unlike any other.
SGM will proudly tout how unique they are as a ministry…UNTIL someone points out that those uniquenesses make them especially vulnerable to spiritual abuse. Then suddenly they’re just another Reformed group trying to make their way in this great big world.
April 5th, 2008 at 12:06 am
Neutral,
We recently moved to a message board format, where we attempted to set up an area where people can share their stories in one spot. You can check that out (http://sgmsurvivors.com/forum/), or you can poke around on the blog. The post entitled, “Attention, Reformed Big Dogs” does contain some pretty coherent comments at the beginning where readers outlined their issues. Then, as most conversations go, the topic strayed a little.
Someday, when I have time on my hands, I may try to compile all the stories under a single thread on the message board. But I’m just not there yet.
I hope that helps.
April 5th, 2008 at 12:08 am
Thank you Kris, that does help.
God bless :grin:
April 5th, 2008 at 12:41 am
Acme
Your story makes my heart break. I am so sorry for what you had to go through. it seems to me after a bit of digging that the main issues taken on this blog is (i will list in order)
1. a level of unhealthy control that many of you find outside the context and authority of scripture.
2. a cookie cutter style of counciling that tends to be a one size fits all or nuthin.
3.a clique mentality among members that fit as opposed to them that dont.
and4. an over emphasis on the doctrine of sin.
am i on the right track here so far. cause i would hate to get you folks wrong. feel free to correct my deductions so far if they need to be.
well i am off to patrol the internet for heresy. A doctrine cops work is never done.
April 5th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Jarrod,
I’d say you are doing PRETty good so far!
Here….O <—– have a cookie.
April 6th, 2008 at 2:50 am
Jarrod-
You’re a good sport and I’d say you’re picking up on the major trends.
April 7th, 2008 at 7:37 am
Kris,
I know you must be very busy. But would you kindly send me the post you deleted. It may still be in your e-mail.
I’m trying to figure out why it was pulled.
Itiz Ritten.
April 7th, 2008 at 9:15 am
Sorry, Itiz…
I don’t have it anymore.
I don’t even remember why it was pulled. I do recall that it occurred to me the other day that I do not have to provide a forum for every single person who wants to bash me or the other commenters or sound off self-righteously about whatever is currently stuck in their craw. Your comment may have shown up around that time and been the victim of the fallout from that realization.
April 7th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Kris,
Here’s something that I think will bring a smile to everyone :smile:
OTF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh5Fa6vZuFo&NR=1
April 7th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Kris,
Thanks for checking anyway. It will come back to me if it was important.
I make sure to read all but a few of the posts of the threads before I respond, so I don’t think it was out of line. Sorry if it was.
I fully respect your decision to say “No”, but have you considered not censoring? Given the irony of sguncensored censoring? I have heard plenty of anecdotes about control of information. Shouldn’t sgmsurvivors be an example of how open minded communication is supposed to be done?
If someone wants to unload without remembering they’re talking with some people that are hurting, that makes them to be the fool.
Again, I understand and respect your call. This is your forum.
Itiz
PS: Perhaps, if not now, this is something you’ll consider for the future?
April 7th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Itiz,
Yes, I see the irony of censorship at a site that used to be called “sguncensored.” That’s why I rarely delete comments. In fact, since the blog started, I’d estimate that I’ve only done a handful of deletions which weren’t at the authors’ requests.
Your comment caught me on a less-tolerant-than-usual day, I guess.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Itiz,
I wish people from SGM on here would be able to better see the heart of our concern for SGM practices on here before they post (in defense of censorship). I think I’d concede that many people with good hearts aren’t able to see it.
Scott
April 17th, 2008 at 12:07 am
Why I am Still With Sovereign Grace Ministries pt. 1
Hi Folks:
I am not sure if this is the correct area to post this… feel free to move it, Kris and Guy, if it is out of place here.
I haven’t been here in a while as the business of life ramped up quite a bit in my “uses time wisely” category… not that me visiting this site is an unwise use of time by any means. I’ve also had health issues and my vocation has taxed major hours from me. But God is just as good as He has always been and ever shall be, and lately I’ve experienced a spiritual refreshing by returning the scriptures and Word he gave us. Isn’t He a wonderful Father?
I continue to be heartbroken over the stories I read again and again here, with obvious trends (as Kris has pointed out) that are unbiblical regarding certain issues and/or areas of what I would call implied theology (to be defined later), to put it mildly. The sheer number of stories here simply does not warrant the shoehorning of this site into the boots of the bitter gossipers and slanderers as some have made it out to be. Saints have been mishandled horribly -including yours truly and yours truly’s wife, a story for later- and there are obvious signs that Sovereign Grace Ministries needs to be overhauled from top to bottom. We are imperfect until that glorious day we will be with our Redeemer and Lord forever… we’re still sinners and we will always have the capacity to hurt each other, so the idea of a Utopian SGM will always be elusive. But there are areas in need of serious reform. If we at SGM indeed follow the spirit of the Reformation as we claim to, we will know that God’s light needs to be shed on every nook and cranny of the organization. This isn’t so finger wagging and I-told-you-sos can be paraded for some carnal satisfaction (and I say this to myself first, then everyone else and not specifically members of this site); it needs to happen so that God can be glorified and that the ongoing sanctification of our organization can happen from the individual all the way up to the sum total of its membership… and leaders are especially included, as their responsibility is outlined graphically in scripture. According to scripture, their status is one of honor, but with that honor comes the care and feeding of God’s precious ones, the saints. And in the Sovereignty of God that we so frequently speak about, be sure that He is not deaf or is looking the other way when His sheep are crying out from injury, have fallen, or are just lost.
I have attended/been a member of Sovereign Grace Ministries long before it was even called SGM. My time in its body so far has been 1979-1993, and 2000 up through the present, in a total of three of its churches (1982-83 was when we first associated with Larry and C.J., and in 1984 we were officially grafted into the SGM family, PDI at the time). I am not a leader in the organization, nor have I ever been in any capacity. My service in the church has ranged from supervising book tables, the sound ministry and in creative capacities for drama skits and plays. I led a Care Group once… as in one night only, as I was asked to by the Care Group leader. I met my wife at church. I literally grew up at SGM. Our circle of friends includes long-time friends and new friends within and without SGM. I have a really big picture of the organization that frames my thoughts and comments before I make them or post them. This does not make me an expert, but it does make me a witness, for sure.
The primary reason I decided to post was a message C.J. gave back in the late 1980′s (and yes, I can dig up the tape; I don’t have immediate access to it right now, nor do I remember the message title) where, in the middle of the message, he expressed justifiable concern about an incident related to him regarding two church members, a single man and a single woman. PDI at the time had an unofficial but strict no-dating-with-no-alternative policy for teens and singles. Back to the story: The man was driving down a local roadway when he saw the woman on the side of the road, her car broken down and she was in very obvious need of outside help. She saw the man, recognized him, he recognized her, and to her shock he drove right by. When the man was confronted later about leaving his sister in Christ on the side of the road to fend for herself, he responded by saying that he was “fleeing the appearance of evil,” was torn up inside about leaving her, but said he feared verbal reprisal from church leadership over it. This was a sad but true tale, and when C.J. told it, he followed up by expressing dismay over the direction the organization had gone that led up to a virtual re-telling of the good samaritan story with PDI on the non-Samaritan end of it! This eventually led to a lift on the no-dating ban. What I am wondering is where this dismay and concern went when the current practice of kissing dating goodbye lends itself -and apparently has, according to some testimonies here- to more disasters like the story C.J. related? This brief example is just one of many practices where church growth is forfeited by good intentions that morph into popular trends or even fads that further morph into dogmatics that are retroactively defended by poor exegesis of scripture. This pattern is dangerous, and it needs to stop; at least have a system of checks to discern if biblical fruit is yielding from it.
I plan on sharing my personal testimony in this, but please understand that I come from the view that while I am saddened by particular strains of sin in my church, I am not parting with her, for reasons to be explained later. I know I run the risk of being exposed/disciplined/whatever for comments here, and I am prepared to take that risk as I love SGM at its heart; it is greater than the sum of sin on the part of a certain number of leaders and members whose good intentions have created an environment of legalism that the Reformers would land on like a ton of bricks. Hopefully it will start a dialogue and not an inquisition, and start the snowball rolling rather than igniting a blowtorch.
–pk
April 17th, 2008 at 12:34 am
Hi, PK – good to have you back! :smile:
Your comment is very much welcomed and fits well here.
I can truly understand and actually admire your commitment to SGM. I appreciate that you’re not denying the issues. As I’ve said all along, I don’t have a desire to see SGM “brought down” or dismantled (although some here have expressed those sentiments). If pro-SGM folks would all just be as honest and open as you are, I’d never have need to rant again. :grin:
April 17th, 2008 at 1:33 am
Hi PK!
I know how you feel, I would probably not have left my church, but really I had no other choice. My kids were not doing well at all. I wish things were different, I really do.
April 17th, 2008 at 8:43 am
PK
Thanks for your posts.
The post about the man being fearful of stopping to help a woman in his church because of their strong teaching on doing things in groups sounds like a more recent story someone shared on this blog. In that story more people were crowded into a car than available seat belts because this single woman didn’t want to be alone in a car with a single man. I am sure there are numerous other examples of this being applied so poorly.
These are both examples of what happens when something that may have intended to be a guideline becomes a hard rule. The motives might have been good but when carried out to an extreme it becomes foolishness.
I set up a blog to list some of my thoughts on “kissing dating goodbye.”
http://www.ikdg.wordpress.com
April 17th, 2008 at 9:14 am
PK
I would also add that it was good that Mahaney acknowledged the problem back then. Usually when one acknowledges that there is a problem that can mean you are a good ways towards solving the problem. it is a shame that one doesn’t see this happening at this time about the various problems that have been brought up on this blog.
Also, I have always wondered why problems with the groups/courtship approach including the one you indicated Mahaney acknowledged were never mentioned in Harris’s books. Leaving out the problems paints a picture of system that is perfect and free from defects. Harris is quick to point out all the problems with dating but doesn’t acknowledge the problems with the system he promotes.
May 14th, 2008 at 11:36 am
Though not a ‘member’ of a SGM church, I have attended a couple of their churches, and I am a ‘friend’ of SGM – I email with some of their leaders (both in the ‘headquarters’ and in a number of ‘local’ churches), and read much of their literature. I must say that nearly everything written here strikes me as very uncharacteristic of any of the personalities I have experienced in the movement. Maybe it is because I am very sympathetic to most of their beliefs (if they were more ‘third-wave’ in their charismatic views, and a bit more neo-calvinist – more like Francis Schaeffer & Richard Mouw, and less like Sproul & McArthur, we’d be exactly in line with one another), but I have always encountered joy & humility – all the way up the ‘chain’. That’s not to say I’m not thankful you are writing this blog – I hope those responsible for any errors will read it, and consider their actions even more carefully. Bless you in your personal search!
May 14th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Hi, Shannon…
Thanks for your comment, as well as the kind words.
I know it probably seems a bit mysterious to you, how you could be fairly well-acquainted with SGM, know many great SGM people, never have seen any of these types of errors yourself, and yet still stumble on this site.
I think the answer (if you’re interested) lies in this particular comment, which I wrote a couple of months ago:
An additional thought, something that has been pointed out time and again by various posters, is that in order to experience the type of abuse SGM promotes, you have to be on the INSIDE. Especially these days, when they’ve gotten so much more expert at distancing themselves from being characterized by “shepherding” practices (although the majority of SGM churches most definitely still do many things common to “shepherding”).
If all you do is attend their nice conferences (so well-groomed for the public that even the “Reformed Big Dogs” like John MacArthur seem clueless about SGM’s issues) and occasionally visit with your SGM friends, you’re not nearly close enough to see any of the abusive practices firsthand.
And you’d never hear of them, either, because that is probably SGM’s number one taboo – “NEVER TALK.”
Just like most dysfuncitonal families.
But…as you are still thankful for this site, I am still thankful that you yourself have a great opinion of SGM and have never seen any of the problems recounted here. In an ideal world, nobody would ever be abused by their church.
Blessings!
May 14th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Shannon
If you haven’t already, I would suggest you read some of the posts in the forum section:
http://sgmsurvivors.com/forum/index.php
I would also give you the following comments. Various leaders on the podium can certainly present a very humble and teachable air but how they act when they are questioned about something can be quite different. I know at least two separate people that found this out with C.J. Mahaney. One person explained to him that something he said from the pulpit might be offensive to people. Mahaney countered that she had a bad attitude.
As a general member, as long are you are docile and don’t question, then you won’t experience much of what is mentioned on this blog. If you do question, that is when you will start experiencing the other side of Sovereign Grace ministries.
In summary, things from the outside can look much different than what one experiences inside, especially when one questions.
As Kris pointed out, they do a good job of keeping their people silent under the guise of calling it gossip.
Hope this helps.