Yes! At long last, Musicman has completed his story. In case you have not read the first two parts, here are links that will lead you to the message board site (which was put into “read only” mode back at the end of May for reasons discussed here), where Musicman first shared about his SGM experience.
Click here for Part I of Musicman’s story.
Click here for Part II of Musicman’s story.
Below, just as he emailed it to me, is the conclusion of Musicman’s story:
So back to the story….. after our fateful first meeting in a member’s home, we started settling into a routine and lowered our expectations from our outreaches. It’s hard for me to be exact and chronological after this point because so much happened in such a short time period (about 1 year). When I was discussing with my wife all that happened and could be written about-we laughed and shook our heads at how much crazy stuff happened.
Let me just comment-that even after such a crazy and disappointing start-my wife and I were still hopeful and very committed to trying to make a real go for helping to establish this new church.
As a church, we settled into our new rented building and began to learn all of the small details that go into the logistics of doing church. We set up chairs, sound equipment, made coffee, set up Sunday school rooms, practiced worship, hosted the actual service, greeted each other and visitors, and then cleaned up everything we had just set up a few hours earlier. It was very busy and at times we were very stressed and pressed for time to keep up with all the commitments to establish the church. I had a good friend from our sending church ask me what I was learning spiritually from being on the church plant. I told him that I learned that God is present at every church meeting, but that God won’t set up the chairs. Anyway, it was in the midst of doing church on Sunday, care group, and prayer night that things relationally, started to become strained with our Pastor and his wife.
In my last post, I mentioned how my wife had started to feel that her good friendship with the pastor’s wife had started to change for the worse. When we actually arrived to the plant-it went even further downhill. It seemed that the only time that she (the pastor’s wife) wanted to relate to my wife was if she was giving advice on how my wife was raising our 1 year old son. My wife tried telling this to her and that she wanted to still be friends and the PW told her flatly that she should expect not to be friends. She then went on to explain that the pastor’s from our sending church had counseled them about this and told her that to be in leadership (or in her case, married to a pastor) would mean that she should start relating more to those in leadership and less to others (even old friends). My wife was flabbergasted and hurt, but tried to express her hope to still spend some time together. Eventually the PW told my wife that she’d be willing to get together once a week to go thru a book on Child Discipline-because she was concerned about my wife and her parenting. My wife agreed to, not because she wanted to read this book, but because she still held out hope for the relationship. What was even weirder in all this, was that our Pastor often times would state in his sermons-that our new church was going to be built on close personal relationships with each other. This was confusing to us-how are we going to build relationally if we should expect to not be very good friends because they were now in leadership (?).
Other random memories form this first year-
The couple who was put under church discipline for not being able to sell their home and move out with the rest of the team to do the plant. I never figured out how that worked or how they were to be disciplined. But I was told by our pastor so I know it happened. They never did sell their house. Lucky them!
There was the time we exhausted our little church to put on a free concert with a major Christian musician. We drew over 500 people and the concert was great. We were certain that this event would cement us in the community and bring in more families to the church (1 person on the leadership team even commented that this event might increase our tithing base). To our dismay-only one family visited the week after the concert and they didn’t even stay for the whole service.
There was the prayer meeting that was hosted at our home-in which one of the church plant team members stormed out before we started. He was offended because I told him I believed that the Dow Jones was likely to reach 8,000 (this was back in early 1997) within the next couple years, based on some research I had done to counter Christian authors that were predicting a stock market crash. I thought we were having a friendly chat. He stormed off in a huff, because he had sold all his stocks because his prophetic gifting told him that a crash was imminent and therefore sold all his stock holdings. He insulted me and told me I couldn’t possibly know, because I didn’t own stocks and was in debt. Not a great way to start a prayer meeting.
There was the couple who started attending and would fight at the beginning of just about every church service. For some reason our pastor would greet them from the front with the microphone, just as worship was getting started. He’d ask them how they were doing and the wife would answer that she was doing horrible because of her husband and begin listing all the ways that she felt neglected by him. They’d begin to argue, our pastor would smile, and I’d start the worship set to the sound of bickering in the background.
There was the prophecy mic-our local school board member who felt led to hone his prophetic calling on us-would read entire chapters of prophetic judgment towards the ancient nations from the book of Isaiah. He not only read these often-but would annunciate them with great fervor and spit, about the impending doom that was to befall those woeful nations. Ah-good stuff.
There was the time the worship team got into a heated debate over whether or not there could be alien life in outerspace.
There was the time my pastor said he was concerned about my doctrine. When I asked him which doctrine, he couldn’t be specific. But he then said he was concerned about where I was getting my doctrine from. I was to busy to be doing any outside study apart from church-so I told him that the only doctrine I was getting was from him. He grew quiet and then changed the subject.
Not all that happened in this first year was bad-we did see a couple of new folks become Christians and it is always sweet to see a new creation in Christ come to be. One was an older Gentleman who was related to a couple I knew. Larry Tomzcak had come to our small church to encourage us, but he also did a small public outreach on a Saturday night, and this older man responded to the gospel and became a Christian. At first he was excited in his new faith and was at every church meeting for many months. After a few months, he would still attend church, but his Daughter in law commented at care group, that she was concerned for him. She said that she thought he was not growing spiritually and had stopped reading his Bible. When she asked him-he was evasive-and she asked us to pray for him because she was worried for him. About 1 month later, an editor/journalist for Soveregin Grace’s magazine called some of us to write about all that was going on at our church plant. When I read the article (it was short) I couldn’t believe it. The article was fairly non-descript, but at the end it included the story of this older gentleman, how he came to Christ (thru Larry), and then ended the article by saying he was now a regular part of our church (which was true) and that he was flourishing spiritually (which was not true). I asked his Daughter in law about it and she said she had told the editor exactly what she had told us as was just as confused as we were about the article and it’s misrepresentation.
Another nagging thought from this period in our lives-is just how much pressure we were under and just how exhausted we had become. The job I took to move for the church plant fell thru after 3 or 4 months. It was a small business and the owner’s wife had fallen ill and could no longer afford to keep my division open. No problem-I started working 2 full time jobs and parking cars on weekends at a Golf course to make ends meet. It was while I was working like a dog, that I had time to be apart from the church and all that went into running it, and actually think about what was going on. I was working at a restaurant and became a shift manager after a month. While running one of the shifts-I befriended on of the other cooks and he eventually found out about why I had moved and the new church I was part of. He showed some interest and we had a long conversation about faith (he had some Christian friends whom he respected) and music. I remember thinking to myself that I’d love to find a way to share my faith with him more…I thought about giving him some free music lessons, I began thinking about maybe starting a small Bible study to go thru the gospel of John and then it hit me, that the one place I did not want to take him, was to my church. Yes-the very church that I was straining to build up-was the last place I’d want to take him. It hit me hard-because it was the first time I admitted (at least to myself) that maybe this church planting thing was not all that it was cracked up to be. It also hit me how silly all the puffed up talk about our church really was-as I worked my jobs-I met hundreds of people who could’ve cared less about where I went to church. My only hope of sharing Christ, was to be available and open to them right there on the job-not with some crazy hope that they’d come to a church meeting first to meet Jesus and believe the good news. I did get to share Christ with some of my co-workers that I parked cars with-some were interested in what I shared, none were very interested in coming to church.
Other relational strains began to hit the fan. Because I was working so late-I was sometimes late for meetings and was occasionally reprimanded for being a poor example to the worship team. I accepted the reprimand and made extra effort to be on time for worship rehearsals before church. One Sunday morning, my wife and I were rushing to be there on time when our 1 year old wet thru his pants and needed to change his clothes. It caused us to be late and once again I was reprimanded, but not given the chance to explain. I stuffed it-but it really bothered me to be treated like a child. Another incident occurred soon after that floored me. Another church plant team member, took it upon himself to reprimand me about my commitment to the church. I was confused because the pastor had recently thanked my wife and I for our support on the plant. He said he could feel our support. I don’t remember all this other man said, but I’ll never forget that he kept raising his voice at me to the point of yelling at me about how I needed to be more committed to the church and to this man (referring to the pastor who was now sitting quietly not saying anything in my defense). What was worse was that he was yelling at me at a public food court in a busy shopping mall. My own Father (who could be a yeller) had never yelled at me like this, let alone in a mall-I think I said very little and maybe even started to cry. I don’t exactly remember-but I can still feel remember the absolute shock that I felt. He then proceed to yell at me some more and say that the only reason he was doing this was because he loved me. What? Love me. This is love? Publicly humiliating me by yelling at me because you don’t think I’m doing enough? This is love? I was truly hurt, confused, and maybe even depressed after this incident. What hurt the most was that my pastor said nothing in my defense. He actually seemed to approve of what was being said and made no comment about the delivery style. Why did I put up with this? I’ve asked myself this question many times and I still don’t know why I let someone treat me this way.
Later, this same man interrupted me mid sentence, as I tried to offer an opinion on an upcoming event the church was planning. Again, the pastor I was speaking with just started talking to this man and never finished our conversation. Later that morning, the whole worship team (which included our pastor and his teenage child) were back stage to pray for the upcoming service. It was very apparent that there was some tension between the pastor and his teenager. Both seemed visibly upset and agitated. One of the sweetest women on the worship team, graciously asked if there was something wrong. Our pastor said no. She graciously asked again, because his teenager ducked out right after we started praying. He said that there was something going on-but that he couldn’t say. It was frustrating to see him be so evasive. Here was a man who had allowed me to be raked over the coals and yelled at in a mall and he couldn’t even be honest about a family fight or whatever it was that occurred that was disrupting his Sunday morning. I actually snapped at that moment-I couldn’t even pray as the rest of the team tried to pray for him in a nondescript way for ”whatever” was going on. I actually huffed and I thought my stomach would explode because I was so frustrated and angry. He looked up at me during prayer and grabbed me to stay after everyone had left. I was so mad at him that we started to argue harshly. I remember flailing my arms in disgust and telling him “how could he lead us when he can’t even be honest about his own life?”. He gave me some hairbrained answer about how it wouldn’t be appropriate for him as pastor to do such a thing. The church service was now 5 minutes behind schedule because the worship leader (me) and the pastor were verbally fighting backstage behind a curtain. Somehow-we managed to tone it down and go out and pull off the church service. We did manage to talk after the service and we forgave each other for the argument that we had backstage. I never did learn what had caused all the fuss between him and his kid, but I felt guilty for expressing myself in such anger and never pursued it or about the recent incident in the mall.
The hardest part was still yet to come- my wife decided that she needed to confront my pastor’s wife about their relationship and the way she seemed to be judgmental towards us and our parenting choices. I called our pastor and he and his wife agreed to come over. I took some time off work and the 4 of us sat down and had a very long and emotional conversation. My wife expressed her feelings and gave specific examples of how she felt her friend had wronged my wife or simply been judgmental in things she said about us. We had prayed ahead of time and were committed to trying to follow Matthew 18 in hopes of being heard and working through these things. I still believed that we would be a part of this church for many years to come and we wanted to be right with these folks. The best way to typify what happened is to tell you what happened at the end of our time together. After hours of us being as honest as we could -about how we felt wronged -and trying to be clear and gracious so that forgiveness could occur. Our pastor’s wife ended the meeting by saying she really wasn’t sure if she agreed with us and that she’d have to pray about and get back to us. She then got up and left our apartment. After saying goodbye to our pastor I closed the door and actually felt like we might get thru this and see our relationships grow. A week or so went by and no follow up occurred. We didn’t press it at first because we were trying to respect their wishes to pray and think about what we said. Another week and a couple more awkward church services-I decided to call our pastor. I asked him about the conversation and asked him if we needed to talk. I apologized for maybe pushing, but we didn’t want to pretend everything was fine-if in reality- we had made his wife mad or bitter or if she felt we were mistaken. He said he didn’t think she was mad and he never really answered me about getting back to us. We eventually left the church plant a few months later, not because of all that had happened but because my employment situation was putting us deeper in debt. My parents offered to let us stay with them rent free so we could get back on our feet. We felt bad for leaving the church plant after only a year, but saw little option because of our financial crisis.
We talked to our pastor and his wife-they understood our situation and since we were moving near CJ’s church-we agreed to get together when they were in town for leadership training. We then moved and started attending CLC. A few months later, we heard that our pastor and his wife were going to be at a pastors’ conference, so we called and left 2 or 3 messages saying that we’d really like to get together and work things out. They did attend the conference, but they never called us back. Later that year, I landed employment back at my old job before the church plant-so we moved and started attending the church that had sent us out to plant. It was here that I approached our pastor to see if he would help us reconcile with our now former pastor and his wife. He seemed eager and we arranged to meet that week. When I laid out all that had happened and how we had tried following Matt 18 as we had been taught-he seemed like he wanted to help. I expected that he would call our old pastor and arrange a time to meet and work it thru. Instead, he told me to write out all the ways I had sinned against this pastor and his wife. Then I should call my former pastor and confess my sin to him. Then once that was out of the way-then he could help me work thru our issues. I was confused as to why I needed to do this-but in the interest in trying to reconcile I agreed to do this. It wasn’t hard to think of ways I had sinned so I wrote them down-but what was hard, was that I had already confessed these things to this man and his wife at our meeting. I hemmed at calling him and put it off for a while. I did call and leave a voice mail and said I wanted to talk-he didn’t call back.
After a month or so-I finally made up my mind that I would try again to call this man, way my pastor suggested. Later that day-another strange twist in the saga-the same man on the church plant team that had yelled at me, walked thru the door at the retail store I was now managing. It had been almost a year since we had left and he told me that he had left the church plant as well. I told him this didn’t surprise me because of the tension I had seen in his relationship with the pastor. We stepped into a back room and he began to tell me some of the details of why they had left, in particular the major problems he and his wife had in relating to the pastor’s wife. I told him that I understood what he meant. He asked me for more details and I rebuffed-saying that I didn’t want to say because I was in the middle of trying to reconcile with these folks and had sought help from our sending church. He kept asking for details-I again explained that I didn’t want to get into it and jeopardize the process. He then swore to me that he didn’t even see our old pastor anymore and that he could be trusted. I then chose to confide in him-I explained some of what had gone on and he confirmed some of the things that my wife and I had tried to work out. It felt good to feel like I wasn’t crazy-and even wondered if maybe I had misjudged this fellow because of his harsh tone in the mall. He shared some more of his trials and decision to leave the church and then he went on his merry way to a business meeting. My conversation with this old church plant member encouraged me to call our old pastor and stand firm.
The next day I began to worry about whether I should have trusted this man and given in to his questions. I didn’t want to be accused of gossip. So I took my afternoon break and decided to make the phone call to confess my sins and to try and re-open lines of communication before any damage could be done. With many butterflies in my stomach, I dialed my pastor’s office number and he answered. I mumbled a hello and started, in a semi scripted fashion, to explain why I was calling and that I wanted to confess some things to him. He interrupted me and told me that, while he wanted to do this, he couldn’t because he was aware of my conversation with this other former church plant member and that he was afraid I had gossiped. I was floored-that man had lied to me-he still got together for breakfast once a week with our old pastor. He had flown home the night of our conversation and had spilled the beans the next morning at breakfast. My heart sank and I was speechless at first. My old pastor started to give me a mini sermon on gossip and bitterness. But I couldn’t say anything-I was shell shocked. I did manage to say that I couldn’t believe this…he was perturbed because I hadn’t answered his question related to his mini sermon. He angrily asked me what I couldn’t believe, I told him I couldn’t believe all that had happened in the last 2 years and how terrible the whole thing had been. I then found my courage and told him that I thought he had gossiped by listening to this man tell things I told him in confidence and that was going to hang up and call the other pastor involved and tell him the whole deal. I slammed down the phone and did just that… but to no avail. This other pastor didn’t seem to know what to do-he promised to talk to this other pastor and get back to me. He never really did get back to me, and despite living less than a mile from our apartment-he consistently put me off for over 4 months. By then we decided that there was little else we could do-to either reconcile with our old pastor or to have our current pastor help us either… I informed our pastor that we were leaving the church. We did talk for hours about many issues, including theological that had been born out of our troubles-but in the end he “released” to go and prayed with me.
I feel sad as I write this-because it has now been 10 years since trying to reconcile with people we loved, and had committed our loves to serve with-only to be turned out with silence and basic indifference. And in leaving SG-we essentially lost all of our friends. Some who had been in our wedding-one whom I considered the brother I never had. This is too painful to recount-needles to say-he hasn’t returned my phone calls in a while.
So why write all this-why not forgive and forget? Well I do forgive them and I actually pray for the many folks I know who are still in the movement. But I write it for those who are going through some of these same types of situations-so that they know that they aren’t crazy. So that they know that SG and their theology of leadership leads to these types of outcomes.
“Nothing matters except faith, expressing itself thru love”
Peace-Musicman
If you have a story you would like to share in a similar manner, you may email it to me at KrisATsgmsurvivorsDOTcom.
I'm verwy verwy sad, RT. We can start our own crew, how bout it? 
(and I can be stone cold...hehehe) 
July 15th, 2008 at 10:20 am
You’re very WISE, Tripping! I think you’re amazing, too! :grin:
July 15th, 2008 at 10:22 am
Oh, AKS… Can you please, please, please start that “EHarmony for SGMSurvivors” soon? I’d much rather be part of Fiddler on the Roof than Seven Brides for Seven Brothers!! :-P
ditto! Gracie May and I were just talking about that!! We both feel like whenever we start listening to the people in our lives we begin to lose our sense of what God’s voice is saying to us. This morning we compared it to riding a horse and riding a bike… If you’re riding a horse, you have to feel every single rhythm of his foot falls, you have to sense what he’s feeling, hearing, seeing, and he has to do the same with you. Riding a bike, however, is all about the machine and the rider’s control of it. You can pedal it as fast or slow as you want to, you are the one who navigates each turn, and if you lose control at any point… well we all know what happens then. What Gracie May and I said (as we rode our bikes instead of our daily run :-P) was that listening to God is very much like riding a horse. If you’re used to riding a bicycle – all about your control, strategy, maneuvering, etc – you will get on the horse and think you approach it in the same manner. However, you have to be willing to be quiet, you have to be willing to not always go in the precise direction you planned, and you have to be willing to become one with the horse, a feeling you don’t necessarily get on a bicycle. Human relationships are a lot like the bicycle, or at least I seem to think. They’re very easy to manipulate, and if you twist your words or find the right friends, you will get whatever counsel and directional guidance you want.
Does that make sense to anyone or am I just rambling senselessly? More than likely it’s the latter…
??:
July 15th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Wow… did I really ust post all of that under Gracie May’s name?
??:
That’s what I get for using her computer…
“Go to the ant you sluggard…”
July 15th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Oh no you make perfect sense.
I’d would just add this; God isn’t just any horse, he’s not a quiet gentle horse that you can lead–remember he’s not a tame lion. ;) He’s more like a wild crazy stallion, just focus on staying on though, and you’ll be fine.
I would most definitely agree.
July 15th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Exactly!! He’s not a tame lion… But he is good!! :grin:
July 15th, 2008 at 10:47 am
CS Lewis, for lack of a better word, was brilliant!! :grin:
July 15th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Our hearts are desperately wicked and deceitful. We cannot hear the voice of God for ourselves – that is the pastor’s job. And the leadership team hears the voice of God for the pastors. And I guess CJ hears the voice of God for everyone else.
??:
July 15th, 2008 at 10:56 am
Great discussion girls! You’re “dead on”! :grin:
I love watching young people interact with God! The relationship is so “vibrant and alive”, like the honeymoon stage of a marriage. The natural optimism and trust of youth enables young people to fellowship deeply with God.
This is another reason I struggle with parents controlling their adult children! Yes, give your child counsel, but don’t assume they’re not hearing from God on an issue that may contradict what you’re saying.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:12 am
So they have some how obtained the unobtainable…without…obtaining it. Confusing?
Yeah a little but this is how it seems to me…
Ok so I can’t hear from God because my heart is so desperately wicked and deceitful, therefore I can’t hear from God [unless God is telling me exactly what He's been telling the pastors]–if it isn’t what they are hearing then it simply can’t be God telling me something, it’s just my wicked sinful craving heart. It seems that hearing from God on all matters, all the time requires me to have a clean pure heart which seems unobtainable by SG standards–well then how have pastors obtained this unobtainable thing? How has CJ gotten a hold of it? They are constantly talking about how sinful and depraved they are–well if that is truly the case then I shouldn’t be trusting them to hear God’s voice for me anymore than I should trust myself. It’s kind of strange and doesn’t make sense in my head.
Do years of studying scripture, going to seminary, and doing ministry somehow make one void of *major* sins and failings? So if I do all those things–then can I hear God’s voice and then relay his desires and his will to everyone else? If so, sign me up. I’ll do AB and after that C, and then I’ll be the model Christian…
That’s what I hear. Honestly if you step back and remove yourself from it all–it’s so ridiculous it’s actually kind of humorous. lol
[I apologize if none of that made sense. It's hard to write something coherently when it doesn't even really make sense in your head...]
July 15th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Faith like a child.
Although you have no idea how much I sometimes have to wack myself on the head when I’m acting to adultish before God. 
July 15th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Carole and DB, with reference to the “SG Esteemed Families” discussion…
So much of what goes on in many SG churches is self-serving for the “esteemed SG families”. The submission to leadership and serving leadership, the nepotism, the courtship for everyone else but a “pre-arranged” set-up with the “best catch” for their own children…it’s all so self-serving!
I felt like a “peasant servant” among a dynasty of “SG Esteemed”. I was there to serve at their every beck and call, and to keep the money coming in through my tithe. My children were there to serve as friends for their children. And “whoa” to any child that attracted the attention of a “desired catch” from one of “their” children. That child would immediately be “blackballed”.
This is more readily observed in the smaller churches. It would be harder to observe some of these things in the larger churches, like CLC. Those closer to the “esteemed” would see it, but the “average SGM Joe” would seldom pick up on it.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Tripping, that makes total sense to me. It all comes back to the cognitive dissonance that is so characteristic of SGM. As a church member you are supposed to distrust yourself in all respects – your heart, your judgment, your desires – because you are so sinful, and the pastors say the same things about themselves, too. But at the same time you are supposed to invest a lot of trust in the teaching, decisions and character of the pastors – and in fact this is required of you in order to be a “joy” to your pastors. So you end up simultaneously believing that your pastors are the most humble people in the world and so aware of their grave sin, and that they don’t make major mistakes or commit serious sins. I think this is why so many current SGM people who find this site for the first time react in the defensive way they do – they’ve been taught to believe their pastors aren’t capable of committing serious sin precisely because they are so humble and aware of their sin. Clear as mud . . .
July 15th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Once again girls…”DEAD ON”!
July 15th, 2008 at 11:34 am
LOL…Pippy, I’ll “brainstorm” some on that “Eharmony for SGM Survivors” idea!
July 15th, 2008 at 11:44 am
And I mean this is just me–I have to daily go before God and ask him to open my eyes where they need to be opened, and show me if I am wrong.
Am I blinded and is SG the ones with their eyes opened?
Am I the crazy one?
And just as Gracie May said–we can find people who think as we do, put their stamp of approval and confirm all we want, that doesn’t mean that we are right though. Am I just looking for a stamp of approval?
No, I’ve prayed about it and no, that’s not why I’m here.
I have to know, really truly know that this is what God wants for me and for my life. And that even if I didn’t know about SGMS and that there were other people out there that had the same issues and questions about SG that I have, I would still think the way I think? Does that make sense?
I think this is where the difference lies–
Think about this–
If everyone on this site was to tell you that they were wrong and that there’s nothing wrong at all with SG and that you are crazy–would you still follow what you think God has shown you? I think pretty much everyone here would.
People in SG I know you would say you’re following God and you probably think you are–but please hear me out–if your pastor or C.J. was to turn and say that they’ve messed up big time and that alot of what they have said and done was wrong; what would you do? Would you still do what they use to say because you think that’s what God has asked you to do? …Or would you change where they said to change?
In my opinion that speaks volumes about who or what you are following.
Oh side note–I’m not saying that I’m not incredibly thankful for this website and the knowledge that I’m not the only one out there with these questions and issues. I’m so thankful to know that maybe I’m not the only “crazy” one.
I hope I didn’t come across as if I didn’t appreciate this site–because I really do.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Tripping, I think most ex-SGM folks on this site have heard for a long time that their criticisms of SGM are crazy and wrong. So just from the fact that we still have our reservations or criticisms of the movement despite having very little support (until this site and SGM refuge and other places popped up in the past few months), I’d say that most people here would feel the same way about SGM even if everyone else disagreed sharply.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Oh I agree, I’m sorry I didn’t mean to discount that. I just know people who have been told that they got all their ideas from this website…I’m sorry I didn’t mean to disregard all the criticisms people have gotten and still get–I was just trying to draw the comparison.
July 15th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Ah, I think I see what you mean . . . never mind then! :p
July 15th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Tripping-
I understand what you meant-good question to ask ourselves, IMO. But like you-I’ve been thankful to finally have a place to share these concerns for whomever it may help and hopefully make some SG folks realize that all is not well in the land…
July 15th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Gracie May-
I’m sorry you were treated so poorly by your former courter. Seems like you’ve got a pretty good perspective on it-but I know it must have felt like death at the time.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
musicman: I appreciate your comment of concern, adn you’re absolutely right, it felt like death at the time…
I truly never understood “Chris” even though we courted for 3 months. Looking back now, it’s easy to see all the “red flags” my grandmother used to talk about when I would go over to her house and chat about this man I thought I was falling in love with. To be honest, when it first occurred I didn’t think I would ever get over the heart ache of losing the man I wanted to marry. Then, a wonderful woman from my hometown contacted me and asked why she was feeling pressured to pray for me. She was a woman who I had known for many years, but hadn’t spoken to since they had left our SG church two years before… come to find out that they too had been abused and controlled by our church leadership. We were just told they were having family issues and needed to work this out on their own. We were also told they didn’t want to commit to the church anymore…
… So anyway, this woman called me out of the blue one day and asked if I could come over and have tea with her. She told me she had been praying for me a lot lately, and had especially been praying for my “precious heart”. Now, she had no idea about my courtship. in fact, when they were kicked out of the church, Chris and I weren’t even close to considering a courtship, so she wouldn’t have even had an inkling about it. So I agreed to have tea with her.
After I told her about what had happened, about my broken heart and all the pain I felt because of the situation, she looked at me and asked a question I will never, ever forget. She looked me square in the eyes in a Jewish-mother sort of way and asked, “Gracie, are you in love with Chris or just in love with being in love?” I don’t remember what I said in reply, but I remember staring at her dumbfounded (ask Pippy, I’m rarely left without a rebuttal). As I think about it now, I’m pretty sure that was God speaking volumes of His wisdom into my heart through this beloved woman.
Now that my blinded eyes have been opened, I am able to approach every potential relationship with the same question… Am I in love with this man or just in love with being in love? What a good question… Gosh, that woman is a blessing!
July 15th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Wow-pretty amazing how God seems to have lead that woman to call you. I wonder how she felt calling you after 2 years? That was some major faith, IMO.
July 15th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
I agree. It took some extraordinary faith! She said she was extremely scared to call me after 2 years, but she knew it was something God was telling her to do, so she picked up the phone and dialed my number. I know now just how much faith and courage it now takes to do something like that. Last week, I had to call a friend from my former SG church who I haven’t spoken to in over a year and I trembled before, during and after the phone call… This woman said that phone calls like that are basically us acting like Abraham – as Hebrews 11 says – and “going not knowing”.
July 15th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
It was ridiculous when I was hearing it from the pastor when I was in the church…that’s part of why I’m out of there.
:neutral:
July 15th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
You guys sound like people who have left the International Church of Christ–have you heard of them? They left me dazed and confused a few years ago when I was very vulnerable. Very cultic and controlling. They rebaptize and they engage in “discipling” with very danging results. You have all gone through something very real. I hope you won’t deny it!!
July 15th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
One thought occurred to me today on SG’s courtship and the recent comments on “purposeful friendships.”
The way that SGM seems to keep the boys/girls and then the young single men/women segregated and not interacting keeps them lacking in basic social interaction skills that are usually necessary to find, get to know, date and get married. That is the SGM singles are kept to where they don’t have the skills to interact with those of the opposite sex. Some would say they perpetually stay and act like Junior High kids even when they are in their 20′s and older.
When you have kids that are kept at this stage of social interaction it is a lot easier to position them toward what marriages the parents seem to want vs. what might be best for the kids. Thus not letting the singles learn social interaction skills is a good to keep them controllable.
I am curious to hear what others think this thought.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:18 am
Savvy,
I have a good friend who was recruited by ICOC and a member for about three years. We compare notes from time to time and there are some striking similarities in group and leadership behavior, though of course not in doctrine, in our respective experiences of SGM and ICOC.
Steve,
In my experience as a teen and young adult growing up in an SGM church, what you say is right on. A big part of why the controlling and silencing tactics I observed were so successful is because the church actively encouraged parenting and leadership approaches that kept children infantilized and dependent on their parents well into adulthood. I also think this is true in general of the church as a whole (and from what I read here, characteristic of SGM in general) – members as a whole, not just teens/young adults, are infantilized and made emotionally/spiritually dependent on the pastors and care group leaders in a way that is very unhealthy. The family meeting from the post about the CO church I think is a great example of this – the congregation is treated like a bunch of children, with the leaders beating around the bush and only offering the vaguest explanations of what is going on, and repeating over and over again that the congregation should be happy and trusting. The repetition of teachings and phrases in particular is a big part of this infantilizing tactic . . .
July 16th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Way back several days ago, old-time commenter “Nancy Drew” made a reappearance. I’ve been falling down on my duties as hostess while on vacation, so I forgot to say “hey” to Nancy.
So, “Hey, Nancy!” :grin:
(Nancy Drew was the one who first coined the term, “Junior Holy Spirit” for us, in reference to how SGM trains people to feel so free to go around confronting one another with “observations” about sin.)
Also, I haven’t welcomed all the new people. So, if you haven’t had a greeting from me, I want to say, “Hi, and welcome to the site!”
I’ve been on vacation and have been dealing with a really slow dial-up connection. I have to mete out my online time, too, because I’m sharing a phone line with an extremely busy fax machine. So that’s why I haven’t been participating in the conversations as much as I probably otherwise would be.
work-in-progress,
Your last comment (and Steve’s) are so very true. The streams of control run so deeply through so many aspects of SGM’s culture. Although before we put up this site, I never had even an inkling that SGM could have perpetrated spiritual abuse on people, one thing I always did think while we were at our SG church was that the folks around me seemed to be REALLY into authority, submission to authority, and control, on all sorts of levels.
Someone else (can’t remember who anymore, but it wasn’t that long ago) pointed out how SGM’s parenting training serves not just to create docile, submissive kids. It also primes the parents themselves to accept similar treatment from THEIR superiors.
One thing my dad and I were discussing – and my dad is seriously way up there as one of the wisest men I know – how SGM takes essentially good, Biblical concepts like obedience, submission, humility, confession of sins, and so forth, and then tweaks them, to where they soon bear little resemblance to their actual Scriptural counterparts.
I see this at work with courtship. It starts out with the best of intentions, too. The point of courtship, at least originally, was to promote sexual purity and help people avoid many of the common pitfalls of the way our culture selects marriage partners. But after hardly a generation, we see an entire system of thinking about romantic relationships that has become all about control.
And I think “work-in-progress” and Steve are right when they point out that depending on a system like this one has left these young people (and some not-so-young people) with immature and underdeveloped abilities…which in turn, of course, leave them more vulnerable to being led and controlled, even as they are pumped full of themselves and their own maturity for “doing it right.”
July 16th, 2008 at 10:01 am
Kris- please do not post my e-mail …I don’t think you would, but for my own peace of mind, I needed to type the request.
I’ve been reading and watching for over 8 or so months. But, I had to speak when it comes to courtship…ugh…I started attending a SGM church on the east coast (not the mother-ship) and saw how awkward the singles were at intermingling in this church, I ended up moving west and attending one of the smaller SGM churches, and was SHOCKED at how different the approaches were. Courtship was basically not discussed, and dating was the norm. They were also a non- 10% rule church. It was the first time I heard a lesson on giving that actually did NOT preach 10 %, and during my new members class – the pastor actually said that there will be circumstances in our lives where we will be unable to give, and gave an example of how college students who had no money could use their time as their “tithe.”
I believe that this stark difference might be b/c the pastor was a long time former pastor of over 20 years, most of it NOT with SGM. However, as I sat in this church for a couple of years, I watched the east coast SGM mentality creep in…in regards to courtship being taught. I stopped/decided not to attend the singles group meetings…as I didn’t fit in (I was ostracized in some ways I believe b/c I had an education (4yr degree). It saddens me to see people not think for themselves. It squashes the spirit, and I believe in some ways discourages the chances for God to work. My father always taught me that it’s okay to question God with a heart to seek the right answer; b/c God will ALWAYS reveal it.
During my time at this church (I am not there anymore, but am at another SGM church), I never desired to “court” because I knew I wasn’t ready for marriage. Thank the Lord that my parents had dragged us through 3 DIFFERENT church splits/ catastrophes at different denominations before I was 18. (one non-denomination 70’s movement church, 2 Assemblies of God churches, and a charismatic Mennonite church). I take anything said to me with a grain of salt due to these experiences. Because of my father’s history through these many churches, he definitely takes the approach of SGM not being the only church, and that we need to go where God leads us.
So when I knew I was ready for marriage, I looked at my west coast SGM church and said – I don’t think so, no mates here. I knew of one guy from my past that I would consider, so I stalked him and convinced him to DATE me, and then he convinced me to marry him.
Not exactly a courtship and what SGM would okay. I’m sure if SGM realized how much I “manipulated” the situation, someone would need to sit me down and point out this “sin-issue” in my life. (of all the SGMisms…I feel as though this one is the worst…) My approach to my mate wasn’t what they would okay, but it’s what God okayed. I’m pretty sure if SGM where around in Ruth’s time…she’d be in a LOT of trouble, and her and BOAZ would be called into a meeting for “discipline.”
Yes we attend an SGM church now. Will we always? …I don’t know. I look at our current church and am saddened by the lack of spiritual movement. All I see is clone movement, and people who are tired of towing the line. I pray more for my church, b/c I keep hoping it will awaken from its slumbering stupor. I think b/c the population of it consists of many 2nd and 3rd generation SGMers, many of those attending don’t know why they are doing what they are doing. Thus the lack of spiritual movement and the abundance of droned movement (like worker bees). Currently we attend b/c we hope to see a change. We hope to see God move. But sadly, I’m starting to wonder if we’re just not moving from this church out of laziness. It’s hard to leave a family that we don’t want to leave. Guess we’re another family “flying under the radar”.
Sorry about the grammar and mind-wandering.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:18 am
…and then there are some who think that only unbelievers and immature Christians would criticize Sovereign Grace Ministries. Apparently some don’t believe that there should be ANY criticism of SGM allowed to remain and just try to erase it all.
This can only be found, at this time, on google cache:
Cornerstone Church – Knoxville Cult?
Filed under: CCK, Church, Religion, Theology by SVD
You never know what you are going to find when you search the Keywords on your Google Analytics page, but I was a little surprised to find the phrase “Cornerstone Church Knoxville Cult” not once but several times in KTOWN’s keyword cache.
My first reaction was, “Ha. That’s funny.”
But then it struck me, that for some reason or reasons, this is exactly what people think or have heard about that church. You see, when people punch in words into a search engine, they are usually very efficient with their word choices. That’s the whole point of keywords and search engine optimization (SEO).
But back to the “cult”. I started thinking, “Why would some folks associate this church with a cult-like status?”
Then it hit me…
1 Corinthians 1:27-28
But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
That church seems foolish to people…probably even other Christians. But why?
You could chalk it up to theological differences and debate whether that church is practicing certain doctrines in a certain way, but that’s pretty typical with any various denominations. And all that info is available on their website (see Statement of Faith). No secrecy there.
I mean as an evangelical Christian myself and a member of Cornerstone, I have vastly different doctrinal opinions of say… the Catholic Church, the United Methodist Church, or even the Church of God…but I would label these different denominations…just that…denominations….not cults.
So why would “cult” show up in the keywords. Most likely it’s what these people have heard and seen about the lives of the church members, not so much the specifics of the doctrine…and here is a list of the things my family loves about the church, that when the non-Christian or even worldly Christian encounter may make them think…”Oh, that’s a cult.”
1. They don’t have a youth group. The parents of the youths actually lead them in different group activities. Parental involvement. It used to be called “Family Time.”
2. Large families. Four or more children in a family is considered nothing unusual.
3. Stay at home moms. Lots of these. And we are talking about college educated, highly skilled stay at home moms.
4. The discouragement of dating and the encouragement of courtship. This one really freaks people out.
5. The practice of church discipline. It’s in the Bible and Cornerstone does not ignore it.
6. The “near mandate” of a husband to romantically pursue and serve his wife. The only dating that the church encourages is within the bonds of marriage…a husband “dating” his wife, and believe me it is one of the best ways to protect and serve your marriage.
7. College students that are selflessly serving the church. VFC is different from the most student groups…and I am sure that other college students think they are weird.
8. Women teach and train other women in modesty. This is definitely foolishness from a worldly perspective.
9. Celebrating the God designed roles of men and women. The church realizes that men and women are different…designed for different roles and tasks and they aren’t afraid to teach and preach that.
10. Sincerity. The people of that church genuinely love each other. And I am not saying they like going to church on Sundays to see or be seen. I am saying that they get involved in other members’ lives. The moms get together for play dates with the kids, the college kids serve other families, men meet for accountability, and the care group leaders “get up in your business”…all in order to serve and encourage one another.
So I guess I understand why people would use the word “cult” in searching for information about Cornerstone Church of Knoxville…if “cult” means not worldly, but my guess is that if that person digs a bit deeper, he or she will find out there’s nothing cult-ish about Cornerstone Church of Knoxville (everything the church believes can be found at their website and by speaking to any member or pastor), but just a group of believers that are acknowledging the sovereign grace of God under which we live.
Trackback URL
12 Responses to “Cornerstone Church – Knoxville Cult?”
1.
Katie, on May 9th, 2008 at 12:43 pm Said:
Many of our family members expressed concern about Cornerstone when we first started going there, mainly because, to them, anything not affiliated with a major denomination is risky. Once they read the doctrine and heard the teaching, they gladly blessed our decision.
And, Aaron and I can say with certainty that
Cornerstone is not a cult because we disagree with a couple of the points you mentioned (we only have 3 kids and are stopping at that, Lord willing, I work part-time, we will probably let our kids date–with guidelines, etc…) and our friends and the leadership of the church have made it clear that those things are not what the church is centered around. Cornerstone is completely Gospel-centered while cults are usually centered around practices and ideas other than the Gospel. I thank God for Cornerstone every day!!!
2.
SVD, on May 9th, 2008 at 1:00 pm Said:
I absolutely agree, the above points are not what that church is focused on…CCK is centered on the Gospel….
the point was just that those are some things that may jump out as “odd” to the non-member
3.
Caleb Hancock, on May 11th, 2008 at 6:41 pm Said:
Yeah Shawn,
You hit the nail on the head when you said that other college students, and even some campus ministries think that VFC is weird.
But, I love to look like a fool for Christ’s sake. The gospel is being proclaimed in CCK and VFC, and as long as that keeps happening, there WILL be opposition and persecution. It’s a given!
Thanks for your post, it was insightful.
All for Jesus!
-CH
4.
ALK, on May 12th, 2008 at 9:45 am Said:
I went there for almost a year and only had 2 people introduce themselves. Of course, I don’t fit in to their description of a perfect member…I’m a single mom, and I work full-time! OMG…don’t everyone freak-out because you think I’m going to hell! BTW-I’m not!
They sure didn’t show any “love” to me…I went there so that my daughter would have a place to go on the the weekends she was with me. She enjoyed her class, but I doubt the other 5 year olds judge her like the adults do!
The leaders of this church want women to stay home and pop-out babies. Thinking like that is so sad to me! Open your eyes Cornerstone, all women weren’t created to do that, and all men weren’t created to make $200,000 a year so his wife can stay home!
Please!
5.
SVD, on May 12th, 2008 at 10:01 am Said:
ALK…I am truly sorry to hear that you had that experience. But the reason for the post was not to offend or to judge… just to explain some things that might be a bit ‘different’.
I would obviously disagree with your last statement…the leaders of the church want to equip the members of the church with the Gospel…that’s it…and encourage believers regardless of gender, but they don’t shy away from what the Bible says on the roles of men and women, and this is offensive to a lot of folks. Believe me I understand where you are coming from.
And I can speak for many of the men in that church, a wife that stays home is a sign of sacrifice not of privilege….especially when you don’t even make $40K.
6.
Matt, on May 14th, 2008 at 3:11 pm Said:
Do the men “train” each other to be modest too? Or is modesty a gender specific attribute?
7.
SVD, on May 14th, 2008 at 5:06 pm Said:
“Modesty” in this context is applied to the specific way a person may dress.
Women are encouraged (especially by other women) to make sure that their “dress” is appropriate. Unfortunately, the simple fact is that the church has to work at not being like the world, and in American society, the less a girl wears, the higher she is held in regard. CCK strives to oppose this trend.
Modesty and humility (in general) are obviously not gender specific.
8.
Nashville SEO Zombie, on May 19th, 2008 at 4:34 am Said:
lol at the “Cornerstone Church Knoxville Cult” phase. I do SEO on a lot of sites, and I’m always finding some weird phrase people find my sites from. Many times its not really related to my site.
9.
Amber (Bringing Good Home), on May 19th, 2008 at 1:35 pm Said:
Very interesting.
Our church often gets the same label. Probably for many of the same reasons. We’re very similar, except that we do have a youth group, but the parents are involved a lot. We do a lot of family oriented things. Our adult Sunday school class is small because most of the adults are actively involved in teaching the children. We have a lot of stay home and/or homeschooling moms. Most families have at least 3 or 4 children. One has nine.
Also, numbers 4,5,6, and 7. Definitely #8. Our women meet every month to practice Titus 2 – we’re very big on things like modesty and submission, which I’m sure doesn’t help. 
The fact that we’re a reformed church doesn’t help either. Still.. given all that. I still can’t figure out why people use the word “cult.” It brings up such obvious connotations. Things like, locking yourselves into a compound away from the rest of the world. Which obviously, neither one our churches do.
10.
Travis Seitler, on July 1st, 2008 at 2:18 pm Said:
Actually, you could probably check out websites such as SGMRefuge.com and SGMSurvivors.com if you really want to find out why that particular search may be more popular in the months ahead.
Hint: the true reasons have very little to do with your list.
11.
SVD, on July 1st, 2008 at 4:18 pm Said:
wow. let it go.
12.
I Left Sovereign Grace Ministries, on July 5th, 2008 at 2:12 pm Said:
Talk about googling…I google sovereign grace ministries and cult and hit your page. And I noticed your link to sovereign grace ministries, plus reading the description of oyur church, means you are a member of an SGM church.
So I would have to agree with the many who are asking if your church is a cult – yes, it likely is, as SGM is an authoritarian franchise “ministry” and the secret is now out after over 20 years. People are all over the internet telling their stories of spiritual abuse at the hands of SGM leadership in churchs ALL OVER the USA. What is scary is that all the stories are alike – hence my claim that SGM is a franchise.
Don’t be afraid to look into the websites and blogs exposing SGM for what it is: a cult some say (as I do) others just say it is very dangerous, the shepherding going on. This movement began back in the 70’s and CJ was involved then too. The first site that blew the lid off was http://www.sgmsurvivors.com but since then others have cropped up like http://www.sgmrefuge.com and http://www.spiritualtyranny.com these are REAL people with real stories that can’t be ignored. They are all alike. And until Nov of last year no one knew why they had struggled at their SGM church.
God is exposing things to the light, The truth will come out.
…………………
http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:zZQsFJV-zsMJ:ktownlowdown.com/index.php/cornerstone-church-knoxville-cult/+%22SGM%22+church+cult&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us
July 16th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Hi, Dorothy, and welcome to the site.
Your story is pretty incredible, in that you were able to buck the system and find happiness in your own way. Good for you, and thanks for sharing a different perspective of SGM.
Ellie,
Where do you find this stuff? Or more to the point, how? Seriously, you’re amazing! :smile:
I just love the author’s arrogance. Does he really think people are searching for information about his church and using the word “cult” in their searches because his Sovereign Grace church seems “foolish” to them?
Give me a break!
If something seems “foolish” to me, my first reaction is NOT to think “cult.” Or actually, to think much about the thing at all. If something strikes me as “foolish,” my general reaction is to shrug it off. People typically don’t research “foolish” things – they simply shrug and move on.
And certainly the word “cult” is not synonymous with “foolishness.”
People attach “cult” to their internet searches because they suspect abusive practices. Or they’ve heard things about an organization’s control over its members…or they’ve heard about shunning…or they’re aware, however vaguely, of someone who has been devastated by the organization.
I will confess, I used to search for “Sovereign Grace Ministries” + “cult” quite frequently. And it wasn’t for any of the reasons that this dude gives! Rather, it was because I sensed something odd going on, something much broader, that MANIFESTED ITSELF in the almost universal compulsion to engage in ALL the practices that the guy lists.
It was because I sensed something “odd,” NOT “foolish.”
Oy. The arrogance! And the completely blindness, the complete inability to step outside his own perspective and see how it’s NOT his church’s emphasis on true Biblical holiness that makes people think they might be a cult. Rather, it’s that his church treats its cultural practices as though they are Biblical absolutes.
This guy’s blog post is Exhibit A for how SGM people truly do think that they have an exclusive, superior understanding of the Christian life. I mean, does this guy really think that he can so blithely write off all of “Evangelical Christianity” as so hopelessly lost, stupid, and Biblically illiterate, that they would mistake Biblical holiness for cultic practices? Or even “foolishness” (whatever that means!) for cultic practices?
The majority of Bible-believing Christians have no problem with teachings on modesty, or with parent-led youth groups, or with stay-at-home moms, or even with the idea that we need to be “purposeful” in our pursuit of romance.
He is building a straw man for himself so that he can quell his deep fear that perhaps those stupid, inferior Evangelical Christians might just be onto something as they Google his organization.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Oh, just a little gifting God’s given me. (Non-SGM approved, of course.)
??:
July 16th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Hi Dorothy,
Thanks for sharing. I love your Ruth and Boaz example. You’re right. They would have been put under church discipline! And yet, the Lord used their union as part of the lineage of Christ. Imagine that! Of course, He also has the former prostitiue Rahab in there as well. I LOVE God’s Grace and redemption!
July 20th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Dorothy – wow, what a blessing your story is, thank you for the courage in posting it. I am single and an adult, and while I briefly “bought into” the courthsip model because I had such bondage in areas of relationships in my past, I do see it isn’t for everyone. Courtship for me provides the boundaries I personally need to remain pure, if that makes sense. But I don’t judge other singles for dating. I don’t see anything wrong with it – bu as one who abused this, manipulated men, and used them for my own needs, I had to take a step back and consider why.
So as it stands today, I don’t think I would date, unless it had some serious boundaries communicated up front, intentions spoken, so it does look a bit like courtship I guess. But that is just me, like I said.
I too loved your comparison to Ruth and Boaz..well said! Welcome to the posting side of this wonderful site!
July 24th, 2008 at 12:13 am
Something I also saw at Crossway was that they celebrated engagments–something worth celebrating I think. What concerned me was how they “honored” those who followed the courtship rules laid out in the previously posted article by Brent Detwiler and did not do the same for those who did not. It really communicated to us wee folks that if you want recognition for doing it right, you have to do it Brent Detwiler’s way. These folks were being honored for honoring God in how they courted; so what does that say for those who didn’t recieve the same honoring? Was God not pleased with them? So courtship wasn’t taught as the only way but is sure was communicated as the “godly” way.
July 24th, 2008 at 6:34 am
How does Brent Detwiler know what a couple is doing to be honorable.
You can date and stay virgins and you can court and be shagging like ferrets.
You never know.
July 24th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
DB!!!
“You can date and stay virgins and you can court and be shagging like ferrets.”
You have such a way with words, girlfriend!! You crack me up!
July 24th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Glad to be of service, Carole.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:04 am
#236
LOL…Exactly DB!!!!
I’ve said that for years! They just look at me like I’m crazy!
I could give them examples of “courtship couples” that “messed up” but that would hurt the parties involved and just make it stricter and more oppressive for the youth and singles. Ironically, those that “messed up” had some of the strictest parents.
July 25th, 2008 at 10:03 am
I just read my comment and it sounded like I actually “DID” give them the names of the couples that “messed up” ! :shock:
I was implying that I “COULD HAVE”… but that would have done more damage than good!
And, unlike SGM leadership, I would NEVER gossip and humiliate a couple like that by pointing out their sin to everyone! :mad: