Yes! At long last, Musicman has completed his story. In case you have not read the first two parts, here are links that will lead you to the message board site (which was put into “read only” mode back at the end of May for reasons discussed here), where Musicman first shared about his SGM experience.
Click here for Part I of Musicman’s story.
Click here for Part II of Musicman’s story.
Below, just as he emailed it to me, is the conclusion of Musicman’s story:
So back to the story….. after our fateful first meeting in a member’s home, we started settling into a routine and lowered our expectations from our outreaches. It’s hard for me to be exact and chronological after this point because so much happened in such a short time period (about 1 year). When I was discussing with my wife all that happened and could be written about-we laughed and shook our heads at how much crazy stuff happened.
Let me just comment-that even after such a crazy and disappointing start-my wife and I were still hopeful and very committed to trying to make a real go for helping to establish this new church.
As a church, we settled into our new rented building and began to learn all of the small details that go into the logistics of doing church. We set up chairs, sound equipment, made coffee, set up Sunday school rooms, practiced worship, hosted the actual service, greeted each other and visitors, and then cleaned up everything we had just set up a few hours earlier. It was very busy and at times we were very stressed and pressed for time to keep up with all the commitments to establish the church. I had a good friend from our sending church ask me what I was learning spiritually from being on the church plant. I told him that I learned that God is present at every church meeting, but that God won’t set up the chairs. Anyway, it was in the midst of doing church on Sunday, care group, and prayer night that things relationally, started to become strained with our Pastor and his wife.
In my last post, I mentioned how my wife had started to feel that her good friendship with the pastor’s wife had started to change for the worse. When we actually arrived to the plant-it went even further downhill. It seemed that the only time that she (the pastor’s wife) wanted to relate to my wife was if she was giving advice on how my wife was raising our 1 year old son. My wife tried telling this to her and that she wanted to still be friends and the PW told her flatly that she should expect not to be friends. She then went on to explain that the pastor’s from our sending church had counseled them about this and told her that to be in leadership (or in her case, married to a pastor) would mean that she should start relating more to those in leadership and less to others (even old friends). My wife was flabbergasted and hurt, but tried to express her hope to still spend some time together. Eventually the PW told my wife that she’d be willing to get together once a week to go thru a book on Child Discipline-because she was concerned about my wife and her parenting. My wife agreed to, not because she wanted to read this book, but because she still held out hope for the relationship. What was even weirder in all this, was that our Pastor often times would state in his sermons-that our new church was going to be built on close personal relationships with each other. This was confusing to us-how are we going to build relationally if we should expect to not be very good friends because they were now in leadership (?).
Other random memories form this first year-
The couple who was put under church discipline for not being able to sell their home and move out with the rest of the team to do the plant. I never figured out how that worked or how they were to be disciplined. But I was told by our pastor so I know it happened. They never did sell their house. Lucky them!
There was the time we exhausted our little church to put on a free concert with a major Christian musician. We drew over 500 people and the concert was great. We were certain that this event would cement us in the community and bring in more families to the church (1 person on the leadership team even commented that this event might increase our tithing base). To our dismay-only one family visited the week after the concert and they didn’t even stay for the whole service.
There was the prayer meeting that was hosted at our home-in which one of the church plant team members stormed out before we started. He was offended because I told him I believed that the Dow Jones was likely to reach 8,000 (this was back in early 1997) within the next couple years, based on some research I had done to counter Christian authors that were predicting a stock market crash. I thought we were having a friendly chat. He stormed off in a huff, because he had sold all his stocks because his prophetic gifting told him that a crash was imminent and therefore sold all his stock holdings. He insulted me and told me I couldn’t possibly know, because I didn’t own stocks and was in debt. Not a great way to start a prayer meeting.
There was the couple who started attending and would fight at the beginning of just about every church service. For some reason our pastor would greet them from the front with the microphone, just as worship was getting started. He’d ask them how they were doing and the wife would answer that she was doing horrible because of her husband and begin listing all the ways that she felt neglected by him. They’d begin to argue, our pastor would smile, and I’d start the worship set to the sound of bickering in the background.
There was the prophecy mic-our local school board member who felt led to hone his prophetic calling on us-would read entire chapters of prophetic judgment towards the ancient nations from the book of Isaiah. He not only read these often-but would annunciate them with great fervor and spit, about the impending doom that was to befall those woeful nations. Ah-good stuff.
There was the time the worship team got into a heated debate over whether or not there could be alien life in outerspace.
There was the time my pastor said he was concerned about my doctrine. When I asked him which doctrine, he couldn’t be specific. But he then said he was concerned about where I was getting my doctrine from. I was to busy to be doing any outside study apart from church-so I told him that the only doctrine I was getting was from him. He grew quiet and then changed the subject.
Not all that happened in this first year was bad-we did see a couple of new folks become Christians and it is always sweet to see a new creation in Christ come to be. One was an older Gentleman who was related to a couple I knew. Larry Tomzcak had come to our small church to encourage us, but he also did a small public outreach on a Saturday night, and this older man responded to the gospel and became a Christian. At first he was excited in his new faith and was at every church meeting for many months. After a few months, he would still attend church, but his Daughter in law commented at care group, that she was concerned for him. She said that she thought he was not growing spiritually and had stopped reading his Bible. When she asked him-he was evasive-and she asked us to pray for him because she was worried for him. About 1 month later, an editor/journalist for Soveregin Grace’s magazine called some of us to write about all that was going on at our church plant. When I read the article (it was short) I couldn’t believe it. The article was fairly non-descript, but at the end it included the story of this older gentleman, how he came to Christ (thru Larry), and then ended the article by saying he was now a regular part of our church (which was true) and that he was flourishing spiritually (which was not true). I asked his Daughter in law about it and she said she had told the editor exactly what she had told us as was just as confused as we were about the article and it’s misrepresentation.
Another nagging thought from this period in our lives-is just how much pressure we were under and just how exhausted we had become. The job I took to move for the church plant fell thru after 3 or 4 months. It was a small business and the owner’s wife had fallen ill and could no longer afford to keep my division open. No problem-I started working 2 full time jobs and parking cars on weekends at a Golf course to make ends meet. It was while I was working like a dog, that I had time to be apart from the church and all that went into running it, and actually think about what was going on. I was working at a restaurant and became a shift manager after a month. While running one of the shifts-I befriended on of the other cooks and he eventually found out about why I had moved and the new church I was part of. He showed some interest and we had a long conversation about faith (he had some Christian friends whom he respected) and music. I remember thinking to myself that I’d love to find a way to share my faith with him more…I thought about giving him some free music lessons, I began thinking about maybe starting a small Bible study to go thru the gospel of John and then it hit me, that the one place I did not want to take him, was to my church. Yes-the very church that I was straining to build up-was the last place I’d want to take him. It hit me hard-because it was the first time I admitted (at least to myself) that maybe this church planting thing was not all that it was cracked up to be. It also hit me how silly all the puffed up talk about our church really was-as I worked my jobs-I met hundreds of people who could’ve cared less about where I went to church. My only hope of sharing Christ, was to be available and open to them right there on the job-not with some crazy hope that they’d come to a church meeting first to meet Jesus and believe the good news. I did get to share Christ with some of my co-workers that I parked cars with-some were interested in what I shared, none were very interested in coming to church.
Other relational strains began to hit the fan. Because I was working so late-I was sometimes late for meetings and was occasionally reprimanded for being a poor example to the worship team. I accepted the reprimand and made extra effort to be on time for worship rehearsals before church. One Sunday morning, my wife and I were rushing to be there on time when our 1 year old wet thru his pants and needed to change his clothes. It caused us to be late and once again I was reprimanded, but not given the chance to explain. I stuffed it-but it really bothered me to be treated like a child. Another incident occurred soon after that floored me. Another church plant team member, took it upon himself to reprimand me about my commitment to the church. I was confused because the pastor had recently thanked my wife and I for our support on the plant. He said he could feel our support. I don’t remember all this other man said, but I’ll never forget that he kept raising his voice at me to the point of yelling at me about how I needed to be more committed to the church and to this man (referring to the pastor who was now sitting quietly not saying anything in my defense). What was worse was that he was yelling at me at a public food court in a busy shopping mall. My own Father (who could be a yeller) had never yelled at me like this, let alone in a mall-I think I said very little and maybe even started to cry. I don’t exactly remember-but I can still feel remember the absolute shock that I felt. He then proceed to yell at me some more and say that the only reason he was doing this was because he loved me. What? Love me. This is love? Publicly humiliating me by yelling at me because you don’t think I’m doing enough? This is love? I was truly hurt, confused, and maybe even depressed after this incident. What hurt the most was that my pastor said nothing in my defense. He actually seemed to approve of what was being said and made no comment about the delivery style. Why did I put up with this? I’ve asked myself this question many times and I still don’t know why I let someone treat me this way.
Later, this same man interrupted me mid sentence, as I tried to offer an opinion on an upcoming event the church was planning. Again, the pastor I was speaking with just started talking to this man and never finished our conversation. Later that morning, the whole worship team (which included our pastor and his teenage child) were back stage to pray for the upcoming service. It was very apparent that there was some tension between the pastor and his teenager. Both seemed visibly upset and agitated. One of the sweetest women on the worship team, graciously asked if there was something wrong. Our pastor said no. She graciously asked again, because his teenager ducked out right after we started praying. He said that there was something going on-but that he couldn’t say. It was frustrating to see him be so evasive. Here was a man who had allowed me to be raked over the coals and yelled at in a mall and he couldn’t even be honest about a family fight or whatever it was that occurred that was disrupting his Sunday morning. I actually snapped at that moment-I couldn’t even pray as the rest of the team tried to pray for him in a nondescript way for ”whatever” was going on. I actually huffed and I thought my stomach would explode because I was so frustrated and angry. He looked up at me during prayer and grabbed me to stay after everyone had left. I was so mad at him that we started to argue harshly. I remember flailing my arms in disgust and telling him “how could he lead us when he can’t even be honest about his own life?”. He gave me some hairbrained answer about how it wouldn’t be appropriate for him as pastor to do such a thing. The church service was now 5 minutes behind schedule because the worship leader (me) and the pastor were verbally fighting backstage behind a curtain. Somehow-we managed to tone it down and go out and pull off the church service. We did manage to talk after the service and we forgave each other for the argument that we had backstage. I never did learn what had caused all the fuss between him and his kid, but I felt guilty for expressing myself in such anger and never pursued it or about the recent incident in the mall.
The hardest part was still yet to come- my wife decided that she needed to confront my pastor’s wife about their relationship and the way she seemed to be judgmental towards us and our parenting choices. I called our pastor and he and his wife agreed to come over. I took some time off work and the 4 of us sat down and had a very long and emotional conversation. My wife expressed her feelings and gave specific examples of how she felt her friend had wronged my wife or simply been judgmental in things she said about us. We had prayed ahead of time and were committed to trying to follow Matthew 18 in hopes of being heard and working through these things. I still believed that we would be a part of this church for many years to come and we wanted to be right with these folks. The best way to typify what happened is to tell you what happened at the end of our time together. After hours of us being as honest as we could -about how we felt wronged -and trying to be clear and gracious so that forgiveness could occur. Our pastor’s wife ended the meeting by saying she really wasn’t sure if she agreed with us and that she’d have to pray about and get back to us. She then got up and left our apartment. After saying goodbye to our pastor I closed the door and actually felt like we might get thru this and see our relationships grow. A week or so went by and no follow up occurred. We didn’t press it at first because we were trying to respect their wishes to pray and think about what we said. Another week and a couple more awkward church services-I decided to call our pastor. I asked him about the conversation and asked him if we needed to talk. I apologized for maybe pushing, but we didn’t want to pretend everything was fine-if in reality- we had made his wife mad or bitter or if she felt we were mistaken. He said he didn’t think she was mad and he never really answered me about getting back to us. We eventually left the church plant a few months later, not because of all that had happened but because my employment situation was putting us deeper in debt. My parents offered to let us stay with them rent free so we could get back on our feet. We felt bad for leaving the church plant after only a year, but saw little option because of our financial crisis.
We talked to our pastor and his wife-they understood our situation and since we were moving near CJ’s church-we agreed to get together when they were in town for leadership training. We then moved and started attending CLC. A few months later, we heard that our pastor and his wife were going to be at a pastors’ conference, so we called and left 2 or 3 messages saying that we’d really like to get together and work things out. They did attend the conference, but they never called us back. Later that year, I landed employment back at my old job before the church plant-so we moved and started attending the church that had sent us out to plant. It was here that I approached our pastor to see if he would help us reconcile with our now former pastor and his wife. He seemed eager and we arranged to meet that week. When I laid out all that had happened and how we had tried following Matt 18 as we had been taught-he seemed like he wanted to help. I expected that he would call our old pastor and arrange a time to meet and work it thru. Instead, he told me to write out all the ways I had sinned against this pastor and his wife. Then I should call my former pastor and confess my sin to him. Then once that was out of the way-then he could help me work thru our issues. I was confused as to why I needed to do this-but in the interest in trying to reconcile I agreed to do this. It wasn’t hard to think of ways I had sinned so I wrote them down-but what was hard, was that I had already confessed these things to this man and his wife at our meeting. I hemmed at calling him and put it off for a while. I did call and leave a voice mail and said I wanted to talk-he didn’t call back.
After a month or so-I finally made up my mind that I would try again to call this man, way my pastor suggested. Later that day-another strange twist in the saga-the same man on the church plant team that had yelled at me, walked thru the door at the retail store I was now managing. It had been almost a year since we had left and he told me that he had left the church plant as well. I told him this didn’t surprise me because of the tension I had seen in his relationship with the pastor. We stepped into a back room and he began to tell me some of the details of why they had left, in particular the major problems he and his wife had in relating to the pastor’s wife. I told him that I understood what he meant. He asked me for more details and I rebuffed-saying that I didn’t want to say because I was in the middle of trying to reconcile with these folks and had sought help from our sending church. He kept asking for details-I again explained that I didn’t want to get into it and jeopardize the process. He then swore to me that he didn’t even see our old pastor anymore and that he could be trusted. I then chose to confide in him-I explained some of what had gone on and he confirmed some of the things that my wife and I had tried to work out. It felt good to feel like I wasn’t crazy-and even wondered if maybe I had misjudged this fellow because of his harsh tone in the mall. He shared some more of his trials and decision to leave the church and then he went on his merry way to a business meeting. My conversation with this old church plant member encouraged me to call our old pastor and stand firm.
The next day I began to worry about whether I should have trusted this man and given in to his questions. I didn’t want to be accused of gossip. So I took my afternoon break and decided to make the phone call to confess my sins and to try and re-open lines of communication before any damage could be done. With many butterflies in my stomach, I dialed my pastor’s office number and he answered. I mumbled a hello and started, in a semi scripted fashion, to explain why I was calling and that I wanted to confess some things to him. He interrupted me and told me that, while he wanted to do this, he couldn’t because he was aware of my conversation with this other former church plant member and that he was afraid I had gossiped. I was floored-that man had lied to me-he still got together for breakfast once a week with our old pastor. He had flown home the night of our conversation and had spilled the beans the next morning at breakfast. My heart sank and I was speechless at first. My old pastor started to give me a mini sermon on gossip and bitterness. But I couldn’t say anything-I was shell shocked. I did manage to say that I couldn’t believe this…he was perturbed because I hadn’t answered his question related to his mini sermon. He angrily asked me what I couldn’t believe, I told him I couldn’t believe all that had happened in the last 2 years and how terrible the whole thing had been. I then found my courage and told him that I thought he had gossiped by listening to this man tell things I told him in confidence and that was going to hang up and call the other pastor involved and tell him the whole deal. I slammed down the phone and did just that… but to no avail. This other pastor didn’t seem to know what to do-he promised to talk to this other pastor and get back to me. He never really did get back to me, and despite living less than a mile from our apartment-he consistently put me off for over 4 months. By then we decided that there was little else we could do-to either reconcile with our old pastor or to have our current pastor help us either… I informed our pastor that we were leaving the church. We did talk for hours about many issues, including theological that had been born out of our troubles-but in the end he “released” to go and prayed with me.
I feel sad as I write this-because it has now been 10 years since trying to reconcile with people we loved, and had committed our loves to serve with-only to be turned out with silence and basic indifference. And in leaving SG-we essentially lost all of our friends. Some who had been in our wedding-one whom I considered the brother I never had. This is too painful to recount-needles to say-he hasn’t returned my phone calls in a while.
So why write all this-why not forgive and forget? Well I do forgive them and I actually pray for the many folks I know who are still in the movement. But I write it for those who are going through some of these same types of situations-so that they know that they aren’t crazy. So that they know that SG and their theology of leadership leads to these types of outcomes.
“Nothing matters except faith, expressing itself thru love”
Peace-Musicman
If you have a story you would like to share in a similar manner, you may email it to me at KrisATsgmsurvivorsDOTcom.
July 10th, 2008 at 5:57 am
sgmsingle, I think you just answered musicman’s question. Personally, I can’t say for sure which there is more of – conversions, or believers moving from other churches – but I suspect it’s the latter. The new member classes do usually seem to be full of people who have been Christians for a while.
July 10th, 2008 at 7:43 am
Gamaliel, wonder why this is?…
“The new member classes do usually seem to be full of people who have been Christians for a while.”
Alot of the folks who attend Alpha at CrossWay have been there forever!
Maybe it’s like the folks who are “professional students” and never want to leave college.
July 10th, 2008 at 8:27 am
Greetings everyone. I have been observing this site for about a year now and up until now thought I would remain silent and would never speak up about my own experiences. I will be honest, even now I’m scared to raise my voice… I have witnessed the grace you all have extended to others, and I have been encouraged by it. Thus, I am not afraid to say the following to you. However, I am afraid of the repercussions of emerging truth as well as the sin I so often find my own heart prone to, so I beg you to pray for me as I attempt to join in the conversations here…
musicman: I can’t even begin to tell you how encouraging your story is to my heart. My family also poured themselves into a church plant. Though we didn’t have to leave our community in order to become a part of the planting team, we extended ourselves far beyond our limits in order to “invest in the church”. I can remember standing beside my mom, prior to the church plant, and explaining to someone from SGM why we desired a church plant in our area. “I’m tired of being rejected,” I said. “I want to be loved by genuine friends who unconditionally love me and will fellowship with me for better or for worse.” I thought that’s what I was getting from SG, but my experience wasn’t anything like what I originally believed it would be. For years we emptied ourselves, financially, physically, and emotionally, out of devotion to the church plant. Yet, in the end, I find myself still standing beside my mom saying the same thing I did when I was a young teenager. I am so very tired of being rejected, and I still only desire to fellowship with genuine friends who will love me unconditionally and commit to walk beside me in the Lord, for better or for worse…
I think it’s time for me to share my story as well, so I will attempt to type it up and send it to Kris. Again, musicman, the Lord has used you to encourage me in ways you will never know. My heart breaks because I know intimately the pain so many on this site have been through or are still going through. However, my heart is also strengthened by the fact that there are those out there who have come out of this with increased faith in God and His astounding grace.
…We are pressured in every way but not crushed; we are perplexed but not in despair; we are persecuted but not abandoned; we are struck down but not destroyed…
July 10th, 2008 at 8:33 am
Work-in-progress, your “rebellious sin” was being a “thinking female”! :mad:
I was blessed to be a “stay at home mom” for 20 years and loved EVERY minute of it! (Well, maybe not the stomach viruses with all the “throwing up”
) I also loved getting my degree and working in my profession for a few years before we had children.
Now that the children are grown and I’m officially an “empty-nester”, I’m back in my profession, loving it and thankful I have it so that I’m not sitting at home sad and lonely because the children are all gone.
July 10th, 2008 at 8:57 am
AKS – not exactly. One of the reasons I thought my parents weren’t typical SGM types was that they always pushed me (a bit too much, actually) to get an education and have a particular professional degree.
The reason they considered me to be in rebellion was twofold: 1) in my sophomore year of college I dropped one of my classes in preparation for this degree and added a very different major as a second major, one that they didn’t consider as important or prestigious, without their permission. Apparently they were happy with me as long as my plans for what I wanted to study lined up with their plans for me. But as soon as my plans changed, they pulled the parental authority card on me. I eventually ended up dropping my first major and going into a very different field than what they wanted, and they were very upset about this for a long time and tried for almost a year to force me to change back. 2) In the same year I started dating a solid, mature, Christian guy, to whom I’m now married, whom my parents had met and whose family they had also met. This was the first and only person I ever dated and the first person I had ever shown any interest in. Rather than being happy/excited for me, they insisted that I not see him and repeatedly told me I was “not ready” to be in a relationship (from when I was 19 until I was almost 21, I was still “not ready”).
Anyway, they told me I wasn’t submitting to their authority properly because I refused to go into a career I didn’t want or stop dating a guy I was really serious about and who was really serious about me.
July 10th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Pippy… For some reason, I think I might know you… I can’t wait to hear more of your story. I will be praying for God’s grace to pour down upon what you type and for His peace to rest in your heart as you relive each memory.
July 10th, 2008 at 9:06 am
OK… now that’s strange. I could have sworn Pippy’s comment was there a minute ago…
July 10th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Gracie May, you do know me… In fact, if you look at your Facebook profile, I just left you a little something…
Oh, and my comment may have been visible to you but not visible now because it’s a new post and is still in moderation. I have a feeling we’re using the same computer, so that might explain why you saw it at first… 
July 10th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Sorry folks… “Pippy” and I have just had a little moment of blondeness… apparently she and I are housemates and I didn’t realize it…
??:
I do apologize to all who are thorougly confused at this point.
Carry on…
July 10th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Work-in-progress, was your “boyfriend/now husband” a SG boy?
It’s “taboo” to date anyone outside of SG at my former church.
July 10th, 2008 at 9:47 am
oops…”date”, silly me! Of course I meant “court”!
July 10th, 2008 at 10:33 am
AKS – his family attended our SGM church for a bit and left just before my family started attending; the fact that they had been in SGM made them seem more trustworthy in my parents’ book :p. The issue was more that we discussed dating each other before he talked to my father first (big no) and that my parents didn’t want me dating or courting *anyone* until they decided the time was right (i.e., after I had gotten my college and professional degrees).
July 10th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Re Claireon #45: When did Grant say that? I must not have been there that day. Was it at a parents meeting/
July 10th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Work-in-progress–for what it’s worth, I am so proud of you and the choices you have made re: your major, your profession, and your sweetie! Good for you–and I pray that God will open your parents’ eyes to see that and will restore your relationship. Yeah for “thinking females”!
Gamaliel – I like your rabbit trails–they’re totally worth following. I don’t know what’s been said specifically from the pulpit about college, in part because my son was just starting in the youth ministry when we left. I do know that in at least one of the parenting seminars parents were asked to consider whether college was appropriate for their child and not just assume that it was.
I shared this website – as some may know – with several CLC folks. One–Cautious–you’ve met. Another told me yesterday that all she saw in her 30 minute visit here was — yes — you guessed it — gossip and slander. I explained that I thought it was so much more than that–and that it’s hard to share one’s story without some identifiers, some specifics, so that it’s clear that this is REAL. The question for me was why I shared this link with the younger women (all over 20, all of whom I consider little sisters in Christ in their own right). I said I felt strongly that they were old enough to hear more than one side, that they were the same age I was when I first came to CLC, and that I want only the best for each.
On SGM Refuge, I shared another encounter with a friend who was sorry that I was posting to such a site, tearing down CLC/SGM. Here’s what I wrote to her:
“Thanks for sharing your concern. I have been on these blogs long enough to sift out the wheat and the tares–and it’s really helped me to process what’s happened to me. There is so much to read on each that it would take days for a person to really get a handle on the blogs, as well as to understand the personalities, the quirks, and the agendas (it’s a little like a new Care Group in that way). The best thing has been help seeing the big patterns in SGM: the authoritarian structure (the Moses model for leadership), the lingering Bill Gothard influences, the influences of Josh’s dad, and the historical shifts from TAG to PDI to SGM.
The folks on these two blogs in particular all have different pieces of the puzzle–
some have been SGM pastors and caregroup leaders,
some were members of church plants, adopted churches, or CLC,
some were there in the 80s, 90s, or today
some (like me) were in SGM for more than 20 years, some have only visited (though none that I know of just to gather ammo though of course it’s possible)
some are still in SGM. some haven’t been back in years, some have just had friends and relatives involved.
some I know personally from CLC
some say some seriously wacky stuff, some say some seriously insightful stuff, some do both and it’s hard to figure out when they’re serious
some are too Calvinist for SGM, others too Charismatic, and so on”
July 10th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Acme, thanks for posting your letter to your friend. I read it on SGM Refuge and thought it was excellent!
Gamaliel, maybe it’s similar to the time when we were discussing the Ezzo stuff and nursing moms!
Work-in-progress…”YOU GO, GIRL!” :grin: On a more serious note, I am praying that the “scales” will fall from your parents eyes and that God will open the doors for lots of discussion and for reconciliation. I know your parents love you very much and want what’s best for you. Most ALL SG parents do, they’re just misinformed! It’s out of that “love” for you that prompted them to embrace such legalistic teachings to begin with. They wanted to “do it right” and trusted that SGM’s “instruction” on parenting was “the most spiritual” out there!
And trust me, SGM goes to a lot of lengths to CONVINCE parents that “their instruction” on parenting IS “the most spiritual” out there!
July 10th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Oh yeah…
And Work-in-progress, it was actually taught by Brent Detwiler and some of the others at CrossWay that you WERE NOT to begin “courting” until AFTER you had completed all your degrees. As a matter of fact, they stressed that the guy should be in a “good” job and have a “suitable” home for his bride. Some were even so bold as to state an actual income figure.
The rule (paraphrased): “If you’re not old enough or in a position to get married, you have no business courting/dating!”
Reason (paraphrased): “You’ll be tempted sexually and won’t be able to control yourself!”
(Whew…thank goodness SGM wasn’t around when my generation was dating, or when my parents’ generation was dating. Alot of us wouldn’t be here!)
July 10th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Kindred Spirit-
Totally off subject-but is your on screen name inspired by Anne of Green Gables?
Acme-excellent response to your friend-pretty much sums up how I feel as well.
July 10th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
LOL…no Musicman, when I “stumbled” across this site I “INSTANTLY” felt I was among “kindred spirits”…hence the name! :smile:
July 10th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Pippy… I see your comments finally showed up. Now I don’t feel like a complete idiot.
??:
work-in-progress: I want to offer my sympathy for what you went through with your parents and your relationship with your boyfriend/husband… I am sure it was (and probably continues to be in certain respects) a difficult situation for you, to say the least.
AKS: I’m surprised that the idea of “courting” post-college and post-finding-a-good-job was taught at CrossWay. I had good friends from CrossWay who “courted” and got married while a) both were still in school and b) neither had anything more than a part-time job. I had no idea that SGM taught that approach to marriage. All I had ever heard was the idea that getting married earlier was better… However, I was in SG only for the past 6 years. That was after your years in SG, right? My dad says that SGM likes to change directions drastically and randomly. I can see this so easily now…
July 10th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Hi Pippy!
Welcome!!
You said this:
I want this so much, that’s what I have always wanted.
July 10th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Pippy..all I can say to you is…PRAY UP!
THat desire to want to fit in, be loved, etc. that we all have is the very thing that drew me into SGM in the first place. The Lord is teaching me now that I need to be content in CHRIST ALONE..seek first the Kingdom of God, and all these things “friends, security, love, etc” will be added unto you…
I’ve heard this all my life, but this year is the first time I’m actually seeing it applied by the Lord in my life as I have lost people who I thought were friends…but were not. My heart is tired of being lonely and crushed, and I hate going through this without a husband ot lean on…but the Lord is faithful to teach me HE is my rock and my stronghold, in Him will I trust.
so pray up, seek Him don’t look back. He won’t let you down, He promises! And we can believe God’s Word to us..
July 10th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Pippy and Ellie, God WILL provide those friends! Trust me, He will!
Even though we can only “walk beside you” through “words and in spirit”, we’re all here for you! :grin:
Gracie May, what was the time frame with reference to your friends? I know of a few such couples, but their families weren’t strict on “toeing the SGM line”. There are a couple of SG churches with the name CrossWay. This one is in Charlotte.
Lol…your dad’s right, they do “change directions drastically and randomly”. CrossWay will “lighten up” just a little every now and then if they’re drawing alot of negative attention. But those who want to stay in “good standing” know better than going along with it, and that it’s just “lip service” due to the circumstance.
And yes, the couples are to marry as soon as possible after they’re “officially” engaged. They’re fearful they may have sex!
July 10th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
And you, too, Concerned…I saw your comment after I posted mine! :smile:
July 10th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
AKS: My friends got married about two years ago… and yes, they were from the Charlotte CrossWay… What also puzzles me is the fact that they are very much the “follow everything leadership says and involve your pastor constantly” type SGMers, so if what you say about CrossWay’s teachings and holding about marriage are true, they either never were counseled in that direction or chose not to listen to their pastor’s advice. Whatever… SGM confuses me no matter which way I look at it…
Oh, and it’s so true about the whole “get married quickly or you might have sex” paranoia. I saw that in sooo many couples who “courted” in my SG circle. I don’t know, but I think the fact that everyone’s so uppity about it all is kind of what makes it such a huge deal if someone actually has a lengthy courtship/engagement. I watched so many couples get dragged in for pastoral counseling or extra accountability because people were concerned they would begin to lose their strength and give in to their fleshly desires. Now, I am not saying this is a valid concern, but my brother and his girlfriend have been in a relationship for four years now and are probably one of the “purest” couples I have ever seen walk out a romance. They started dating (yes folks, I just said the d-word) as juniors in high school and are now going into their senior year of college. I just went ring-shopping with my brother, so I know they will be getting married at some point in 2009, but I don’t see the big rush. I applaud them for their strength, and I know that they will be a wonderful example for the rest of my siblings as we walk out our future relationships in the standard of purity God has called us to… all that said, I hope I don’t model my future relationship after my brother and (Lord willing) future sister in-law. While I am impressed by God’s grace in their lives, not all their relationship regulations are ones I feel the Lord calling me to “cut and paste” into my own “dating document.” Work-in-progress, I am glad you sought to think for yourself and live out your relationship the way you felt God leading you. Parents are wonderful authority figures in our lives, but i think we need to realize as children that there is a major difference between honoring them and acquiescing to their every single bit of advice. As Christian parents they are, much like pastors, there as wise counsel for us as we seek to grow in godliness. We cannot come to see them as those who “stand in the stead of God”…
July 10th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Kris–re 22 and the lady in the airport.
I am glad I am not the only one. You go around thinking all is well, and all is behind you, then you catch sight of Someone at Sam’s Club, or an airport sink, and whammo, all the pain surges back, and you go back and forth between terror and joy and hate and hope. One thing I love about your site is the willingness that the survivors have to allow each person to heal at their own speed.
Sometimes I think about the new heavens and the new earth. Time is done and sin is done and true unity is there because of our Savior’s work. We will catch sight of Someone going into a concert ahead of us, or sitting three seats down at the Lamb’s table. And we will smile and wave and be so very grateful and astonished at our own redemption that pain will have no place left in our hearts! Only joy. No catching in our hearts when we see Someone–only shared pleasure and delight.
Thank you, Kris, for all your work, funny how you have been called to this ministry. Are you surprised by it?
Hope you enjoy your trip!!
July 10th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Pippy-
Thanks for the kind words and welcome to the board
July 10th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Well Gracie May, I know there are those who don’t “follow it to a T”, but it’s “DEFINITELY” still taught as the “ideal”, and expected. The senior pastor’s son and the daughter of a “key” care group leader were put on “black out” (no contact with one another) about a year ago because “the timing wasn’t right”.
July 10th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
I enjoy how clueless the SGM parents are, bless their little hearts. One young lady I teach decided to confess to her parents that she had been having a relationship with another SGM boy, from her CG.
All four parents and the two young people met together for the confession.
Shock and awe abounded.
Everyone got grounded for a couple of hours.
Later, the boy’s mom told me that she was glad they had come clean, and that one day they might end up together.
Not likely. The young lady was already locking lips behind the church with a different kid from the worship team, which would explain why the need for confession came upon her so suddenly.
It makes me sad. These kids live a sheltered life, alright, but the sheltering is that of their own hearts from their moms and dads. The parents are so afraid of being judged by their community if their kids show interest in a person of the opposite sex that they cut off all conversation with their kids. Lonely for them, lonely for the kids.
Aren’t we called to raise brothers and sisters in Christ who will leave us confidently and joyfully? My son will probably be my elder one day, my daughter my Bible study leader, no? I want to know them well, today.
July 10th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Pippy,
Welcome! So glad you have found our group! We are looking forward to hearing your story.
It always saddens me to hear of the fear that accompanies the telling of a story. But you are right – here you will find encouragement and understanding that might not be found elsewhere, because we all KNOW what you are experiencing. That’s why it is easy to connect with folks on the blog so quickly.
July 10th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
On the subject about have a short courtship.
I would hope that SGM would have learned by now the dangers of pressuring couples who are courting to get marries so soon. There were at least a few couples I heard about that married soon before they were really ready and had spent enough time together. These couples after getting married found out that they weren’t as good of a match as they thought they might have been.
Can you imagine having to live with someone for a life commitment that isn’t a good match and that happened due to being pressured by your church to either stop seeing each other or get married. I wonder why this problem is never brought up. It is part of SG’s history with courtship that they never seem to mention. They only mention what they see as the good and don’t own up to the problems it has caused.
it is sad when someone thinks that there is just one way for a couple to meet each other and get married. Some start seeing each other in Jr. High and are they only person they ever date. Others have much different experiences. Maybe God just doesn’t work the same way for all people? I guess SGM doesn’t really want to admit that.
July 10th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Steve –
There is definitely a one-size-fits-all undercurrent, if not outright approach, to how SGM talks about dating/courtship relationships and marriage. They never explicitly say that things must be done in a particular way, but they strongly imply that their way is the best or most spiritual way. I seem to remember the advice when I was at my parents’ church being that from the beginning of courtship to marriage should generally be no more than a year, and that couples should try to be married within three months and at most six months of becoming engaged. All of this was put forth in the name of “wisdom” and avoiding temptation.
AKS and Gracie May – I think the young men are definitely encouraged to complete college before they get married. Women are a different story altogether, though! At my church many young women didn’t go to college at all. I was in two different care groups where the care group leaders’ wives had left college to get married. I remember a very heated ladies’ care group meeting where about 3 of us high school girls and our moms were defending the usefulness and practicality of a college education, while the other girls and moms were arguing against us – very awkward!
July 10th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
a friend of mine who is single was told my a mother of a pre-teen girl during a care group where the Sr Pastor was present that my friend must have the “gift of celebacy” because she was still single (she is an adult woman, over 40)…my friend got really angry and said “NO, I don’t have the so-called gift of celibacy, it is called SELF CONTROL by the Spirit of God. I desire to be married and will wait for the Lord in that.” THe woman didn’t know how to respond. And my friend rebuked her publicly for setting her daughter up to fail in that she was only teaching marriage as her purpose in life. It was a tense evening as you can imagine. All of this was in front of the 13 yr old girl too..the mother started it when she said “I don’t want my daughter to be anything like YOU”…it was ugly.
I admired her for her courage to stand up against this self-righteous and legalistic woman who didn’t want her young daughter to think that a woman who is single and working is somehow “acceptable” unless she has this calling or gift to be single. and of course this woman’s daughter was simply NOT called to be single. Whatever that is. I don’t find a calling for singleness in the Bible..maybe I need to get the ESV after all..think it is in there??
It is really messed up – wheat if you don’t get married? what will all those young girls do? what if they can’t have children? what if their husband can’t have children? what if your children die? You see where i am going with this…this picture perfect ideal of the all-Christian SGM family that they have set up for everyone to see (aka Mahaney family) is unreal, ungodly, and unscriptural.
the fruit of such teaching and encouragement is frustration, legalism, and if a young woman doesn’t get married within a certain time frame, to a certain boy, with certain credentials, etc…it is all so much bondage! It makes me want to scream….
I’m an adult woman, still single. And my SGM friends had no clue what to do with me – it’s as if the world they live in doesn’t exist properly being single, and they cannot relate to anyone not exactly like them! I was always getting slammed for the master’s degree that I have and “don’t use” – I found myself always apologizing for my education and being ashamed of it because I felt they saw it as a source of pride, but of course if I said anything to justify my education they would have accused me of being prideful…they were always making comments about how it was a waste of money, wasn’t God’s will for women…I bought into all of it. I regretted going to college and grad school..and couldn’t think anything positive about it without feeling I was being prideful somehow.
I’m grateful for my education…and I am using it to teach my son at home now..and maybe will use it again in another way once he is grown….nothing is wasted with God…He redeems it all!
July 11th, 2008 at 1:54 am
Concerned-
I’m sorry you felt you had to apologize for being educated. I just don’t get that-does this same rule apply for men? That they should not worry about education, since their highest calling is to be husbands and lead their wives? I think I know the answer.
Why do education and being ready for marriage have to be mutually exclusive-or at least suspect of any “real” value for women? And where exactly is this notion encouraged in the Bible?
Can I just say that some of the most inspiring and interesting women I ever met were at my college (including my wife). Many have gone on to become wives and moms, but many have gone on to become teachers, performers, missionaries, and the like. And this was not a Christian school-but your average East coast state school. Not that college makes or breaks a person-my parents and my wife’s parents never attended college and I love them both and consider them to be smart and very intelligent people. But college was a great experience both spiritually and educationally. Anyway….I’m starting to ramble…
July 11th, 2008 at 5:51 am
Gracie May and I just spent a lot of time talking about some of the comments here while we were on our morning run…
Both of us attend Ivy League schools and are pursuing more than a bachelors degree. Gracie wants to be a lawyer, and I am looking to go into the corporate world as well. Both of us agreed that when we would go home from school we would feel the need to “apologize” for the fact that we were going to college and had a desire to be business women first and raise a family after we had worked for a while. Gracie is still not even sure she has a desire to get married – also something she felt the need to apologize for. However, I’ll let her tell her story and I’ll tell mine…
My question is this: why is it that the home is the only ultimate place for a married woman? I understand that raising a family and being a committed mother to your children is a godly thing to do, but I don’t think that being a stay-at-home mom is the only godly approach to parenting. I asked Gracie this morning, but I’ll ask all of you and see how your answers compare: Is that me being a feminist? Or is that an OK desire to have (to balance a family and a career)?
Obviously I’m not married yet, and when I am I will pray about this even more and discuss it with my husband in-depth, but people in SGM constantly accused me of being tempted by worldly philosophies and told me I was a feminist because of that desire. I remember sitting down with my pastor and him saying “The ultimate place for you to glorify God is in the home, so you should aim to prepare in every way for motherhood and homeschooling your children.” I remember leaving that meeting confused and almost angry. I went home and talked to my dad about it and his response was exactly the opposite. Basically, he told me that in order (for me specifically) to be a good homeschooling mother – if that was what I chose – he would encourage me to pursue as much of an education and as broad an education as I could so that I could someday impart that knowledge to my kids, be that in a homeschool environment or simply in addition to their public/private education.
I lean toward my dad’s counsel more and more, but I’m still confused… SGM seems to think that the only purpose women have, if they’re desiring to get married, is in the home raising a family and teaching their children. In fact, I’m pretty sure a lot of Carolyn’s book addressed that very issue. I can see how easily this could be a control thing (so that women are not “as smart” as the men) but I feel like there might be more underlying issues… Any ideas?
Oh, and I’m not trying to start a fight between conservatives and liberals or whatever… I just honestly want to figure out why SGM is teaching something as “biblical truth” that I have not seen clearly outlined in scripture as such…
July 11th, 2008 at 7:46 am
Oh, our morning run conversations, Pippy… Y’all will never be able to fathom the places we end up or the topics we discuss. it’s funny, but I never would have expected to find myself in a situation where I needed to discuss a topic this painful on a blog where I only know one other poster for sure. When I was in SGM, I would have thought this to be me gossiping or aiding bitterness in my heart. However, I see now that it is far from any of that…
I was never really part of a church plant, so I don’t know anything from personal experience. However, I have been good friends with Pippy for many years and have heard her stories of what it was like to plant their SG church in the Northeastern US. My family came into SG because we got our car washed on one of their outreaches and my mom got to talking to one of the pastors’ wives (a very outgoing woman at the time who later became quiet and withdrawn…). I can tell you this: though we never were a part of a “church plant”, we most certainly felt as though we spent our resouces and lives much like those on a church planting team.
Musicman, you said that you “tithed yourselves into debt”; I know the feeling. My family did the same, not only for our own SG church but also for other aspects of SGM (remember those little envelopes they would hand out after the “mission presentation”? yeah… I think we gave the lump sum of our yearly grocery money on those Sundays…). I remember going to conferences and maxing out my dad’s credit card simply because we were supposed to “build a library” that would strengthen our faith. As much as I enjoy some of the books found in SG bookstores, I don’t think that reading literature from men is of utmost importance if you feel compelled to spend and arm and a leg to buy them. As soon as we were “kicked out” of SG, my brother took every single SG resource we owned and invited the rest of the family out back for a bonfire. I do believe the best tasting marshmallows I’ve ever had were made that night
(since we talked about it this morning… hahaha)
Obviously, that probably wasn’t the wisest thing to do with such a hefty investment, but I think it shows something of just how important it actually is to purchase every book CJ stands up and admonishes his followers to read… The same goes for how much we (as SGMers) spent on SG CDs, gifts for the pastor, new equipment for the worship team, building funds, etc. There are just so many expenses and everyone is asked to “give in faith” with no wise financial counsel. Pippy can probably tell you some very strange stories about all that as well
July 11th, 2008 at 8:41 am
Anassa Kata, Pippy and Gracie May – or as Oprah says, “You go, girls!”
Ironically, I chose CLC because, in part, I rejected the radical feminism of Bryn Mawr. Now I’ve left CLC/SGM in part because of its embrace of “Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” which works out itself at CLC as a culture that devalues higher education for girls, discourages professions (as opposed to keeping your husband’s books or having a home business like Creative Memories or Usborne ), keeps women from exercising their God-given talents in leading, teaching, and yes, preaching from audiences ranging from the Puppy Dogs classes (2 year olds) through to the main meeting.
As far as higher education and men, there is a strong anti-intellectual pull from pastors who have little or no college education. My gut says that the level of educational/professional attainment has a direct correlation to entry into SGM; specifically that men with doctorates are more likely to have joined the church after their education.
Footnote: Anassa Kata is the Bryn Mawr College Cheer.
Anassa kata, kalo kale,
Ia ia ia Nike,
Bryn Mawr, Bryn Mawr, Bryn Mawr!
Translation
Queen, descend,
I invoke you, fair one.
Hail, hail, hail, victory,
Bryn Mawr, Bryn Mawr, Bryn Mawr!
July 11th, 2008 at 9:04 am
I’ll ask all of you and see how your answers compare: Is that me being a feminist? Or is that an OK desire to have (to balance a family and a career)?
Hmm… both? :smile: The choices women have to get an education or work outside the home are two very positive effects of the feminist movement.
Categorizing desires by some sort of overarching label (“feminist”) and then using that to dismiss or disallow it is one of the ways SGM keeps people from questioning all of the extrabiblical rules they keep adding. It’s better to just look at the substance of what’s being said. The choice for your question isn’t “feminist” versus “OK”, it’s “reasonable” versus “unreasonable”… and the desire to do work that isn’t exclusively related to caring for husband and children is very reasonable.
The whole split between “career” and “the home” is an artificial one that only makes sense because of modern industrialization and automation… the idea that men should go off to work every day while women stay home and take care of the kids would have been entirely incomprehensible to the Bible’s authors. SGM isn’t longing for the Proberbs 31 woman (you know, the one who runs her own, non-family-based business, and takes care of her own finances), they’re longing for a 1950s housewife. There aren’t any of those in the Bible :razz:
July 11th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Great conversation going on here! I wish I had the time to participate.
For now, all I have time to say is that I remember a short time ago someone posted a link to an outline by Brent Detwiler about courtship (or something akin to that). It clearly revealed and defined exactly what the SGM measurements are for marriage and the expectations for each partner in the relationship. It was easy to see, in black and white, SGM’s narrowminded path that they expect everyone to adopt, with the overarching presumption that it’s the right path for everyone to take with few, if any, exceptions.
In looking for that outline (hopefully someone else remembers it), I came across another one that was entitled, “Questions for Courtship”, written by Brent Detwiler’s young daughter and son-in-law (who obviously pride themselves as having had an SGM-ideal courtship). I don’t know about anyone else, but reading these questions, two things came to mind:
1.) What about pre-marital counseling? And, maybe it’s just me but, did anyone feel this big “ick” factor when you imagine using all those questions? I would think you would begin to feel like you were being turned into soft butter so that you could be poured into the creepy crawly SGM mold that awaits you at the end.
2.) It is apparent that the “questions” aren’t intended for open-ended discussion as much as they are statements of belief with only one right answer. For example, under “Church Life”, if asked “Would you consider moving somewhere there is not a Sovereign Grace church?” We all know the answer to that question would have to be a resounding NO in order for the question to be answered “correctly”. The same holds true for almost all the “questions”.
Anyway, gotta run…here’s the link:
http://www.crosswaync.org/summit2006/outlines/Courtship.pdf
July 11th, 2008 at 9:52 am
Pippy and Gracie May, how fortunate you are to have one another! It sounds like you’re having way too much fun…morning runs, “talks”, school, etc. Ahhh, those college years are good times! It’s been a while, but I still remember. How long have you two known one another? Did you meet through SG?
I’m so glad we have young adults on the forum. I enjoy your input and perspective! It’s true, young people ARE our future! I want you all to know (Gracie May, Pippy, Work-in-Progress, Gamaliel, ithinknot, SGMsingle, and others) that I’m encouraged by the character, wisdom, and heart of the young people on this site. I’m MOST encouraged by your “walk with the Lord” and your ability to “think”.
I’m sure Paul was a lot like you, a brilliant young person with a lot of “heart” and drive. Paul was a “thinker”, not a “yes man”. I feel certain Paul was already beginning to question whether some of this “Jesus stuff” could be true long before his “Damascus Road” experience. God knew the kind of “credentials” he needed in a young man, and Paul fit the bill!
Ladies, don’t let SG beat you down and make you feel like second class citizens. I’m not going to get into a debate on “egalitarian vs. complimentarian”. That’s been discussed numerous times on this site, especially on the forum. I can post the links if you want to read them. But there’s one thing I can confidently assure you of…God made us “BOTH” in His image, male and female! He looked at Adam and said it wasn’t good for him to be alone. God didn’t take Adam’s rib and make another “man” to be his “guy friend”, spiritual equal, and accountablity partner. No…HE MADE EVE!
He didn’t make several men first, and then said, “Oh yeah, you “men” are going to need some women to “meet your needs” and multiply the world with!
This has always boggled my mind! Where did men get this stuff from? What do they do with the “strong females” in the bible? And there’s alot of them!
Now ladies, having said all that, I do feel “MOST” women, obviously not “ALL” women, are designed by God to be the primary “caregiver” to children. It’s how He designed us. We’re the ones designed to physically carry and deliver the baby. We’re the ones designed to nurse the baby. And we’re the ones designed with the special “nurturing skills” and “intuition” needed to “mother” and protect our young. You see the same design in most of the animal kingdom. And note…there are those “exceptions” in the animal kingdom where the male takes care of the young. I personally feel that there are those “exceptions” within the human race, as well. I personally know Godly women who are doctors and their husbands stay at home and are the primary caregiver.
I came along in the “thick” of the feminist movement. I did not embrace the movement and did not consider myself a “feminist”, but I was definitely affected by it. I had no intentions of staying at home after having children…and then, I had children.
:grin:
No woman can describe to you the “heart and soul” connection you almost “INSTANTLY” feel when you hold YOUR baby for the first time. It’s unlike ANY “bond” you will ever experience. My husband felt it, too! We knew then that NO ONE could love our child and put more effort into the nurturing and “training up” than one of us. Since he had the better paying job and profession, I stayed at home to raise the children. And like “MOST” females, I am the one designed with more of the patience and nurturing skills. Although he’s good, I have to give him credit for that! I am a blessed woman!
So Pippy and Gracie May, the reason I share all this is to say, “Don’t let it bother you right now!” Only God knows His plan for the two of you and He has you on the right path to achieve it! You can always have peace in that, ALWAYS! He’s perfectly capable of bringing a man into your life, to make you the greatest lawyer in history, or to give you a quiver full of children. Only HE knows HIS plan. We’re simply suppose to stay close to Him, loving Him, and trusting His guidance!
He’s the best “Daddy” ever!
(Sorry ladies, I got a little sentimental and started rambling.)
July 11th, 2008 at 9:52 am
Oh, hey! I found that other outline!
Prepare yourself. This says it all in black and white:
http://www.crosswaync.org/summit2006/outlines/Vocation.pdf
July 11th, 2008 at 10:06 am
LOL…yep Claireon, that’s the one!
Good ‘ol CrossWay! We always aimed to be the “ideal”!
July 11th, 2008 at 10:26 am
And Concerned…
Don’t “EVER” worry that somehow you’re “slighting” your son as a single mom!
God’s faithfulness in the area of provision and blessings on single families blows my mind!! He “IS” the father of the fatherless!
Look at Timothy!
July 11th, 2008 at 10:27 am
AKS: I am crying right now as a result of what you just wrote. Thank you so much for those encouraging words. You can’t even imagine the amount of love that speaks to my heart…
Pippy and I are definitely having way too much fun with each other. It’s funny, but we haven’t ever talked about the blog with each other and yet yesterday I got on the computer and saw “Pippy” sharing a story that sounded just like my housemate (whose childhood nickname, I know, was once Pippy). Then, I walked away from the computer after leaving my comment and she got on to reply… You can imagine my surprise to find that it really was her! :grin:
We met through SG, yes. I was in a different church, but we had a few run-ins at Celebrations and formed a fast friendship. We had very similar interests and found a lot to talk about through emails, phone calls, etc. When I was kicked out of my SG church, she was the only (and I do mean ONLY) SGM person who continued to stick by me and seek me out, even though I know she was busy with school, a stressful job, family trials of her own, and so many other things that are typical in her life (you’ll see, she’s probably the most joyful “constant sufferer” I’ve ever met). Even though she was warned that talking to me was gossip and that I was prone to slander and would only lead her down a path of bitterness, she stuck with me much like she does on our daily runs now
When I was forced to end my courtship, she spent three hours on the phone with me, speaking truth into my ears and encouraging my broken heart.
Then it was my turn to do the same for her… I remember the day she called me, weeping, because of what her SG church had done to her family. Even though I had lived the agony myself, I couldn’t believe that it could happen at a completely different church to a family so deeply committed to SGM. I mean, they were that family every pastor – including CJ – would love to get up and praise endlessly, so it made absolutely no sense for them to be “excommunicated” as I was. it made sense that my pastor would say “you show a lack of total committment to this local church and are unwilling to enthusiatically submit to my pastoral leadership” but Pippy always spoke well of her pastor and talked about how she was finding everything she had ever wanted in SGM. And yet, the very same story of control, abuse, twisted phrases, un-biblical actions, and extreme hurt was coming from this girl I had come to know and love. It killed me to hear it… that was the first time I actually began to think this situation was bigger than just me.
This summer, to sum up a long story and not spoil Pippy’s upcoming narrative, she and I are housemates. I am looking forward to joining her this fall at this most esteemed university to finally get my law degree. She will be graduating in the spring (NOOO!!!), but I think I finally convinced her to stay on and get her masters so we can graduate at the same time
Sorry Pippy… I didn’t mean to steal your thunder or embarass you… you’re probably going to kill me when you read this… just in case all y’all can’t tell, I love my Peppy Pippy! :grin:
July 11th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Gracie May, you and Pippy are “VERY BLESSED” to have one another!
Unfortunately, most women do not have the ability to be a “true friend” due to fact that “most women” struggle with “caddiness” and jealousy! Very few ever get to experience a relationship like David and Jonathan. You are indeed, very blessed!
July 11th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Pippy and Gracie May, I have a feeling we’d have a lot to talk about! Would you mind dropping me an email at wip1219@gmail.com?
July 11th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Just popping back in for a sec. I’ve kinda sorta been following the blog here lately (now that it’s easier to keep up with, rather than trying to follow things on the messageboard) Anyway, these last posts about women having an education etc are interesting to me in a way. I was raised in a church as a pk (not SGM) but never ever heard the things about being a woman in the way that you all describe. It’s like the SGM church wants to keep woman at a level below men… for whatever reason, I still don’t get that. (it’s a major control issue in my opinion) A woman desiring to further her education is NOT even close to feminism. It’s sad to me that a woman would even feel like that because of what their church taught.
My question is for the women in SGM who follow SGM by the book. These women graduate from high school, go through courtship with their husbands, get married… raise their children (ie homeschool)…then what happens? Obviously career options are very limited because they are discouraged from continuing their education. Maybe that seems like a silly question, but reading through these posts made me wonder.
All this stuff continues to boggle my mind about the SGM church. It would really bother me to watch someone grow up in such oppression… (that’s really what it is!) It would be a major shock to realize that all of the stuff you had been taught wasn’t even in the bible while I realize SGM promotes it as such. Much of it is simply a culture that is created just like other more extreme cults. (yes I used the word cult, but I don’t know what other word could be used to describe it to be honest)
July 11th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Concerned said:
“I admired her for her courage to stand up against this self-righteous and legalistic woman who didn’t want her young daughter to think that a woman who is single and working is somehow “acceptable” unless she has this calling or gift to be single. and of course this woman’s daughter was simply NOT called to be single. Whatever that is. I don’t find a calling for singleness in the Bible..maybe I need to get the ESV after all..think it is in there??
”
That is sad that this mother seemed to think it was unacceptable for this woman to single at a later age.
From what I saw when I was there, there were a lot more single men than women and is probably still the case. With those odds and SG’s indication that it is only acceptable to date/marry within SG there is likelihood that a number of the girls will never get married (including this woman’s daughter).
As at least someone pointed out, a lot of the SG boys don’t seem to willing to through the courtship “hoops” that SG outlines except for the really attractive girls. Thus increasing the chance of some of these women not getting married.
If a woman plans on getting married and home schooling her kids I would certainly think she would want more than a high school education.
July 11th, 2008 at 11:29 am
Hey, Brwy Mawr was mentioned; my daughter teaches at Brwy Mawr….um, er, Shotokan karate but the girls do get credit :razz:
I know at this point, I’d be in deep dog doo with SG because all of my daughters are either in school or pursuing careers. I have one that just became a doctor. I guess she should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen cooking for her husband. Oy. Another is going to college to be a teacher. Another (the karate instructor,) is an estimator for the commercial division of a construction company (very non traditional,) and she was (is, they never stop being,) a US Marine that served for almost a year in Ramadi, Iraq (IOW, she was busting herself to protect the very hydes that would criticize her status as a warrior.) Another daughter is going to Carnegie Mellon and hasn’t decided on a major but is thinking about international finance (she is fluent in German,) or archetecture (sp?) The youngest is going into fourth grade and has no clue about her future career.
I, myself, would be roundy condemned for wasting my time and family finances because I’m going to school fulltime and I hope to do well on the mcat so I can apply to med school.
I encourage all the women reading this to follow your heart and your dreams, you were created in God’s image and have the power to influence history by using your gifts, whatever those gifts may be.
July 11th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Sorry I misspelled Bryn Mawr twice.
July 11th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Beady Sea wrote: The whole split between “career” and “the home” is an artificial one that only makes sense because of modern industrialization and automation… the idea that men should go off to work every day while women stay home and take care of the kids would have been entirely incomprehensible to the Bible’s authors. SGM isn’t longing for the Proberbs 31 woman (you know, the one who runs her own, non-family-based business, and takes care of her own finances), they’re longing for a 1950s housewife. There aren’t any of those in the Bible
This is exactly the point I tried to make in countless CG meetings (one in which a leader looked me in the eye and said that my working was a sin – even though the alternative would have been a homeless shelter or living in someone’s basement as a charity case – seriously). I have NO stay-at-home moms in my family tree. My mom worked. My grandmothers worked (both teachers–one Math and one English–and Church Ladies). My great-grandmothers were farm women and everyone worked at home (on the farm).
I would have loved to have stayed home with my kids, but I married the wrong man to do that. I would have loved to have a whole houseful of kids, but instead God gave me two of my own and hundreds at school over the years. My school kids call me “Mother E—-” on occasion–and still email me and friend me on Facebook and hug me in the mall.
I am so blessed, so richly blessed. He takes my mourning and turns it into dancing. He takes my rags and gives me garments of praise.