Yes! At long last, Musicman has completed his story. In case you have not read the first two parts, here are links that will lead you to the message board site (which was put into “read only” mode back at the end of May for reasons discussed here), where Musicman first shared about his SGM experience.
Click here for Part I of Musicman’s story.
Click here for Part II of Musicman’s story.
Below, just as he emailed it to me, is the conclusion of Musicman’s story:
So back to the story….. after our fateful first meeting in a member’s home, we started settling into a routine and lowered our expectations from our outreaches. It’s hard for me to be exact and chronological after this point because so much happened in such a short time period (about 1 year). When I was discussing with my wife all that happened and could be written about-we laughed and shook our heads at how much crazy stuff happened.
Let me just comment-that even after such a crazy and disappointing start-my wife and I were still hopeful and very committed to trying to make a real go for helping to establish this new church.
As a church, we settled into our new rented building and began to learn all of the small details that go into the logistics of doing church. We set up chairs, sound equipment, made coffee, set up Sunday school rooms, practiced worship, hosted the actual service, greeted each other and visitors, and then cleaned up everything we had just set up a few hours earlier. It was very busy and at times we were very stressed and pressed for time to keep up with all the commitments to establish the church. I had a good friend from our sending church ask me what I was learning spiritually from being on the church plant. I told him that I learned that God is present at every church meeting, but that God won’t set up the chairs. Anyway, it was in the midst of doing church on Sunday, care group, and prayer night that things relationally, started to become strained with our Pastor and his wife.
In my last post, I mentioned how my wife had started to feel that her good friendship with the pastor’s wife had started to change for the worse. When we actually arrived to the plant-it went even further downhill. It seemed that the only time that she (the pastor’s wife) wanted to relate to my wife was if she was giving advice on how my wife was raising our 1 year old son. My wife tried telling this to her and that she wanted to still be friends and the PW told her flatly that she should expect not to be friends. She then went on to explain that the pastor’s from our sending church had counseled them about this and told her that to be in leadership (or in her case, married to a pastor) would mean that she should start relating more to those in leadership and less to others (even old friends). My wife was flabbergasted and hurt, but tried to express her hope to still spend some time together. Eventually the PW told my wife that she’d be willing to get together once a week to go thru a book on Child Discipline-because she was concerned about my wife and her parenting. My wife agreed to, not because she wanted to read this book, but because she still held out hope for the relationship. What was even weirder in all this, was that our Pastor often times would state in his sermons-that our new church was going to be built on close personal relationships with each other. This was confusing to us-how are we going to build relationally if we should expect to not be very good friends because they were now in leadership (?).
Other random memories form this first year-
The couple who was put under church discipline for not being able to sell their home and move out with the rest of the team to do the plant. I never figured out how that worked or how they were to be disciplined. But I was told by our pastor so I know it happened. They never did sell their house. Lucky them!
There was the time we exhausted our little church to put on a free concert with a major Christian musician. We drew over 500 people and the concert was great. We were certain that this event would cement us in the community and bring in more families to the church (1 person on the leadership team even commented that this event might increase our tithing base). To our dismay-only one family visited the week after the concert and they didn’t even stay for the whole service.
There was the prayer meeting that was hosted at our home-in which one of the church plant team members stormed out before we started. He was offended because I told him I believed that the Dow Jones was likely to reach 8,000 (this was back in early 1997) within the next couple years, based on some research I had done to counter Christian authors that were predicting a stock market crash. I thought we were having a friendly chat. He stormed off in a huff, because he had sold all his stocks because his prophetic gifting told him that a crash was imminent and therefore sold all his stock holdings. He insulted me and told me I couldn’t possibly know, because I didn’t own stocks and was in debt. Not a great way to start a prayer meeting.
There was the couple who started attending and would fight at the beginning of just about every church service. For some reason our pastor would greet them from the front with the microphone, just as worship was getting started. He’d ask them how they were doing and the wife would answer that she was doing horrible because of her husband and begin listing all the ways that she felt neglected by him. They’d begin to argue, our pastor would smile, and I’d start the worship set to the sound of bickering in the background.
There was the prophecy mic-our local school board member who felt led to hone his prophetic calling on us-would read entire chapters of prophetic judgment towards the ancient nations from the book of Isaiah. He not only read these often-but would annunciate them with great fervor and spit, about the impending doom that was to befall those woeful nations. Ah-good stuff.
There was the time the worship team got into a heated debate over whether or not there could be alien life in outerspace.
There was the time my pastor said he was concerned about my doctrine. When I asked him which doctrine, he couldn’t be specific. But he then said he was concerned about where I was getting my doctrine from. I was to busy to be doing any outside study apart from church-so I told him that the only doctrine I was getting was from him. He grew quiet and then changed the subject.
Not all that happened in this first year was bad-we did see a couple of new folks become Christians and it is always sweet to see a new creation in Christ come to be. One was an older Gentleman who was related to a couple I knew. Larry Tomzcak had come to our small church to encourage us, but he also did a small public outreach on a Saturday night, and this older man responded to the gospel and became a Christian. At first he was excited in his new faith and was at every church meeting for many months. After a few months, he would still attend church, but his Daughter in law commented at care group, that she was concerned for him. She said that she thought he was not growing spiritually and had stopped reading his Bible. When she asked him-he was evasive-and she asked us to pray for him because she was worried for him. About 1 month later, an editor/journalist for Soveregin Grace’s magazine called some of us to write about all that was going on at our church plant. When I read the article (it was short) I couldn’t believe it. The article was fairly non-descript, but at the end it included the story of this older gentleman, how he came to Christ (thru Larry), and then ended the article by saying he was now a regular part of our church (which was true) and that he was flourishing spiritually (which was not true). I asked his Daughter in law about it and she said she had told the editor exactly what she had told us as was just as confused as we were about the article and it’s misrepresentation.
Another nagging thought from this period in our lives-is just how much pressure we were under and just how exhausted we had become. The job I took to move for the church plant fell thru after 3 or 4 months. It was a small business and the owner’s wife had fallen ill and could no longer afford to keep my division open. No problem-I started working 2 full time jobs and parking cars on weekends at a Golf course to make ends meet. It was while I was working like a dog, that I had time to be apart from the church and all that went into running it, and actually think about what was going on. I was working at a restaurant and became a shift manager after a month. While running one of the shifts-I befriended on of the other cooks and he eventually found out about why I had moved and the new church I was part of. He showed some interest and we had a long conversation about faith (he had some Christian friends whom he respected) and music. I remember thinking to myself that I’d love to find a way to share my faith with him more…I thought about giving him some free music lessons, I began thinking about maybe starting a small Bible study to go thru the gospel of John and then it hit me, that the one place I did not want to take him, was to my church. Yes-the very church that I was straining to build up-was the last place I’d want to take him. It hit me hard-because it was the first time I admitted (at least to myself) that maybe this church planting thing was not all that it was cracked up to be. It also hit me how silly all the puffed up talk about our church really was-as I worked my jobs-I met hundreds of people who could’ve cared less about where I went to church. My only hope of sharing Christ, was to be available and open to them right there on the job-not with some crazy hope that they’d come to a church meeting first to meet Jesus and believe the good news. I did get to share Christ with some of my co-workers that I parked cars with-some were interested in what I shared, none were very interested in coming to church.
Other relational strains began to hit the fan. Because I was working so late-I was sometimes late for meetings and was occasionally reprimanded for being a poor example to the worship team. I accepted the reprimand and made extra effort to be on time for worship rehearsals before church. One Sunday morning, my wife and I were rushing to be there on time when our 1 year old wet thru his pants and needed to change his clothes. It caused us to be late and once again I was reprimanded, but not given the chance to explain. I stuffed it-but it really bothered me to be treated like a child. Another incident occurred soon after that floored me. Another church plant team member, took it upon himself to reprimand me about my commitment to the church. I was confused because the pastor had recently thanked my wife and I for our support on the plant. He said he could feel our support. I don’t remember all this other man said, but I’ll never forget that he kept raising his voice at me to the point of yelling at me about how I needed to be more committed to the church and to this man (referring to the pastor who was now sitting quietly not saying anything in my defense). What was worse was that he was yelling at me at a public food court in a busy shopping mall. My own Father (who could be a yeller) had never yelled at me like this, let alone in a mall-I think I said very little and maybe even started to cry. I don’t exactly remember-but I can still feel remember the absolute shock that I felt. He then proceed to yell at me some more and say that the only reason he was doing this was because he loved me. What? Love me. This is love? Publicly humiliating me by yelling at me because you don’t think I’m doing enough? This is love? I was truly hurt, confused, and maybe even depressed after this incident. What hurt the most was that my pastor said nothing in my defense. He actually seemed to approve of what was being said and made no comment about the delivery style. Why did I put up with this? I’ve asked myself this question many times and I still don’t know why I let someone treat me this way.
Later, this same man interrupted me mid sentence, as I tried to offer an opinion on an upcoming event the church was planning. Again, the pastor I was speaking with just started talking to this man and never finished our conversation. Later that morning, the whole worship team (which included our pastor and his teenage child) were back stage to pray for the upcoming service. It was very apparent that there was some tension between the pastor and his teenager. Both seemed visibly upset and agitated. One of the sweetest women on the worship team, graciously asked if there was something wrong. Our pastor said no. She graciously asked again, because his teenager ducked out right after we started praying. He said that there was something going on-but that he couldn’t say. It was frustrating to see him be so evasive. Here was a man who had allowed me to be raked over the coals and yelled at in a mall and he couldn’t even be honest about a family fight or whatever it was that occurred that was disrupting his Sunday morning. I actually snapped at that moment-I couldn’t even pray as the rest of the team tried to pray for him in a nondescript way for ”whatever” was going on. I actually huffed and I thought my stomach would explode because I was so frustrated and angry. He looked up at me during prayer and grabbed me to stay after everyone had left. I was so mad at him that we started to argue harshly. I remember flailing my arms in disgust and telling him “how could he lead us when he can’t even be honest about his own life?”. He gave me some hairbrained answer about how it wouldn’t be appropriate for him as pastor to do such a thing. The church service was now 5 minutes behind schedule because the worship leader (me) and the pastor were verbally fighting backstage behind a curtain. Somehow-we managed to tone it down and go out and pull off the church service. We did manage to talk after the service and we forgave each other for the argument that we had backstage. I never did learn what had caused all the fuss between him and his kid, but I felt guilty for expressing myself in such anger and never pursued it or about the recent incident in the mall.
The hardest part was still yet to come- my wife decided that she needed to confront my pastor’s wife about their relationship and the way she seemed to be judgmental towards us and our parenting choices. I called our pastor and he and his wife agreed to come over. I took some time off work and the 4 of us sat down and had a very long and emotional conversation. My wife expressed her feelings and gave specific examples of how she felt her friend had wronged my wife or simply been judgmental in things she said about us. We had prayed ahead of time and were committed to trying to follow Matthew 18 in hopes of being heard and working through these things. I still believed that we would be a part of this church for many years to come and we wanted to be right with these folks. The best way to typify what happened is to tell you what happened at the end of our time together. After hours of us being as honest as we could -about how we felt wronged -and trying to be clear and gracious so that forgiveness could occur. Our pastor’s wife ended the meeting by saying she really wasn’t sure if she agreed with us and that she’d have to pray about and get back to us. She then got up and left our apartment. After saying goodbye to our pastor I closed the door and actually felt like we might get thru this and see our relationships grow. A week or so went by and no follow up occurred. We didn’t press it at first because we were trying to respect their wishes to pray and think about what we said. Another week and a couple more awkward church services-I decided to call our pastor. I asked him about the conversation and asked him if we needed to talk. I apologized for maybe pushing, but we didn’t want to pretend everything was fine-if in reality- we had made his wife mad or bitter or if she felt we were mistaken. He said he didn’t think she was mad and he never really answered me about getting back to us. We eventually left the church plant a few months later, not because of all that had happened but because my employment situation was putting us deeper in debt. My parents offered to let us stay with them rent free so we could get back on our feet. We felt bad for leaving the church plant after only a year, but saw little option because of our financial crisis.
We talked to our pastor and his wife-they understood our situation and since we were moving near CJ’s church-we agreed to get together when they were in town for leadership training. We then moved and started attending CLC. A few months later, we heard that our pastor and his wife were going to be at a pastors’ conference, so we called and left 2 or 3 messages saying that we’d really like to get together and work things out. They did attend the conference, but they never called us back. Later that year, I landed employment back at my old job before the church plant-so we moved and started attending the church that had sent us out to plant. It was here that I approached our pastor to see if he would help us reconcile with our now former pastor and his wife. He seemed eager and we arranged to meet that week. When I laid out all that had happened and how we had tried following Matt 18 as we had been taught-he seemed like he wanted to help. I expected that he would call our old pastor and arrange a time to meet and work it thru. Instead, he told me to write out all the ways I had sinned against this pastor and his wife. Then I should call my former pastor and confess my sin to him. Then once that was out of the way-then he could help me work thru our issues. I was confused as to why I needed to do this-but in the interest in trying to reconcile I agreed to do this. It wasn’t hard to think of ways I had sinned so I wrote them down-but what was hard, was that I had already confessed these things to this man and his wife at our meeting. I hemmed at calling him and put it off for a while. I did call and leave a voice mail and said I wanted to talk-he didn’t call back.
After a month or so-I finally made up my mind that I would try again to call this man, way my pastor suggested. Later that day-another strange twist in the saga-the same man on the church plant team that had yelled at me, walked thru the door at the retail store I was now managing. It had been almost a year since we had left and he told me that he had left the church plant as well. I told him this didn’t surprise me because of the tension I had seen in his relationship with the pastor. We stepped into a back room and he began to tell me some of the details of why they had left, in particular the major problems he and his wife had in relating to the pastor’s wife. I told him that I understood what he meant. He asked me for more details and I rebuffed-saying that I didn’t want to say because I was in the middle of trying to reconcile with these folks and had sought help from our sending church. He kept asking for details-I again explained that I didn’t want to get into it and jeopardize the process. He then swore to me that he didn’t even see our old pastor anymore and that he could be trusted. I then chose to confide in him-I explained some of what had gone on and he confirmed some of the things that my wife and I had tried to work out. It felt good to feel like I wasn’t crazy-and even wondered if maybe I had misjudged this fellow because of his harsh tone in the mall. He shared some more of his trials and decision to leave the church and then he went on his merry way to a business meeting. My conversation with this old church plant member encouraged me to call our old pastor and stand firm.
The next day I began to worry about whether I should have trusted this man and given in to his questions. I didn’t want to be accused of gossip. So I took my afternoon break and decided to make the phone call to confess my sins and to try and re-open lines of communication before any damage could be done. With many butterflies in my stomach, I dialed my pastor’s office number and he answered. I mumbled a hello and started, in a semi scripted fashion, to explain why I was calling and that I wanted to confess some things to him. He interrupted me and told me that, while he wanted to do this, he couldn’t because he was aware of my conversation with this other former church plant member and that he was afraid I had gossiped. I was floored-that man had lied to me-he still got together for breakfast once a week with our old pastor. He had flown home the night of our conversation and had spilled the beans the next morning at breakfast. My heart sank and I was speechless at first. My old pastor started to give me a mini sermon on gossip and bitterness. But I couldn’t say anything-I was shell shocked. I did manage to say that I couldn’t believe this…he was perturbed because I hadn’t answered his question related to his mini sermon. He angrily asked me what I couldn’t believe, I told him I couldn’t believe all that had happened in the last 2 years and how terrible the whole thing had been. I then found my courage and told him that I thought he had gossiped by listening to this man tell things I told him in confidence and that was going to hang up and call the other pastor involved and tell him the whole deal. I slammed down the phone and did just that… but to no avail. This other pastor didn’t seem to know what to do-he promised to talk to this other pastor and get back to me. He never really did get back to me, and despite living less than a mile from our apartment-he consistently put me off for over 4 months. By then we decided that there was little else we could do-to either reconcile with our old pastor or to have our current pastor help us either… I informed our pastor that we were leaving the church. We did talk for hours about many issues, including theological that had been born out of our troubles-but in the end he “released” to go and prayed with me.
I feel sad as I write this-because it has now been 10 years since trying to reconcile with people we loved, and had committed our loves to serve with-only to be turned out with silence and basic indifference. And in leaving SG-we essentially lost all of our friends. Some who had been in our wedding-one whom I considered the brother I never had. This is too painful to recount-needles to say-he hasn’t returned my phone calls in a while.
So why write all this-why not forgive and forget? Well I do forgive them and I actually pray for the many folks I know who are still in the movement. But I write it for those who are going through some of these same types of situations-so that they know that they aren’t crazy. So that they know that SG and their theology of leadership leads to these types of outcomes.
“Nothing matters except faith, expressing itself thru love”
Peace-Musicman
If you have a story you would like to share in a similar manner, you may email it to me at KrisATsgmsurvivorsDOTcom.
July 11th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Acme-
So I’m sure this care group leader offered to take you and your kids in so that you wouldn’t be living in sin. Or maybe he contacted leadership and they offered to work tirelessly until someone in the church could provide for your families needs and you could stay home and nurture, teach, and raise your kids.
July 11th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Acme, I admire you and Concerned so much!
Like the great single moms before you, such as Timothy’s mom and grandmother, God his given you His strength and wisdom to persevere! There are so many stories of children who grew up in single homes who became the “greats” that testify to such.
I’m sure there have been times you have felt like crumbling under the weight of it all, and yet look at how faithful God has been to each of you!
What a testimony ladies!
Unfortunately, SGM struggles to deal with this. It doesn’t “fit” the SGM mold! How can you and your children be “turning out all right” when you didn’t follow the prescribed formula? You mess up the equation!
They just don’t get it. The formula isn’t as complicated as they want to make it! In fact, it’s a very simple formula…JESUS!
July 11th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Hah! No doubt.
Just before my parents went through the SGM shunning process, my father quit his old job as a pastor specifically so he could join the SGM church… but that meant he was unemployed. He spent all his time trying to find any work he could, but in the meantime all income was coming from my mother. Rather than the obvious Christian response of helping my father find a job and settle into the church, the pastor said he wasn’t fulfilling his responsibility to his family, and that he should be “ashamed” to be supported by his wife like that. Which is a really great thing to say to a guy who’s struggling with depression after giving up his 20-year career to be a part of your church.
In public they always try to pass this stuff off like “We aren’t saying women can’t work, some women are in situations where they have to work… but if they can manage not to, it’s ideal.” Which is already bad enough to tell young girls while explaining why they shouldn’t want a college education. But when it actually comes down to it in practice, it’s obvious that this isn’t just an “ideal,” it’s a prerequisite to be considered a good Christian, or in many cases to even be a member of the church at all…
(As a supplement to my earlier post, I should add that the Proverbs 31 wife also sinfully exercises authority over men by hiring them to tend her vineyard :razz: …which would be funnier if I hadn’t heard SGM guys who explicitly said that they couldn’t work for a female boss…)
July 11th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
w-i-p: I will email you soon, I promise. Right now I am at work and don’t have access to my emails (corporation security policy)… I would love to talk to you though! I’m sure Gracie May will say the same thing. In fact, I’ll stop over at her office and see if she’s read your post yet. :smile:
Acme – most of my friends call my mother, “Mom E”…
Oh, and “ditto” what musicman said to you… I’m sorry, but that mentality in SGM always seemed ridiculous to me…
July 11th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
“(As a supplement to my earlier post, I should add that the Proverbs 31 wife also sinfully exercises authority over men by hiring them to tend her vineyard …which would be funnier if I hadn’t heard SGM guys who explicitly said that they couldn’t work for a female boss…)”
LOL…oh Beady Sea, I would LOVE it if some SG men I know walked into the office Monday morning and discovered they had a woman as their new boss! What I would “give” to see that!
July 11th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Beady Sea Said:
“Just before my parents went through the SGM shunning process, my father quit his old job as a pastor specifically so he could join the SGM church… but that meant he was unemployed. He spent all his time trying to find any work he could, but in the meantime all income was coming from my mother. Rather than the obvious Christian response of helping my father find a job and settle into the church, the pastor said he wasn’t fulfilling his responsibility to his family, and that he should be “ashamed” to be supported by his wife like that. Which is a really great thing to say to a guy who’s struggling with depression after giving up his 20-year career to be a part of your church.”
That sounds really cold what they did to your father. It would have been one thing if your father was sitting around not looking for work but from what I saw you wrote sounded like he was doing his best to find unemployment. This was a temporary situation due sacrifices he made to join a SG. How sad.
I am sure this wouldn’t be the first case of a wife having to work due her husband temporarily not having a job.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Beady-
What’s your Dad’s feeling about all that happened to him?
July 11th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
I can’t imagine none of these men have female bosses.
I can’t imagine they have a good attitude about it, either.
July 11th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Oh Beady!
??:
That’s just plain nasty what that pastor said to your Dad!
DB,
LOL, about misspelling Bryn Mawr – some of the names around here aren’t the easiest to spell! (I’m not too far away from where you are.)
Gracie May and Pippy,
you two just enjoy the season of life that you are in now – I miss those days so much! I wish I had taken the time to REALLY have made the most of them.
July 11th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
I would just like to point out another side of the story here – growing up in a sgm church and going to school there as well, and being a girl, I would grow up, get married, and raise kids at home. I also assumed and was told I would go to college. When I neared graduation from high school, I vocalized to parents, friends and teachers that I had no desire to go to college – because I didn’t want to “waste” the money when I didn’t have anything I wanted to get a degree in. They actually discouraged me from doing this – all groups – my principal/teachers, my friends, and my parents, telling me that I really needed to go to college and get an education in order to have something to live off of. God may not have marriage in store for me, or if he does, what if it doesn’t work out? With no degree in this world, it would be hard to support myself, much less if I had children. So here I am well on my way to my bachelors degree and very glad I have gone to school as my church family encouraged me to do because I have learned so much. Plus they say they are impressed on how determined I am now after the things I said years ago
So yeah… that was rambling, but discouraging girls from getting further education is something I have never encountered at my church – in fact it was quite the opposite.
July 11th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Troubled,
Its nice to know that some people are encouraging higher education amongst females. I have noticed a trend toward females, in circles I used to travel, toward girls marrying young (before they could earn a college degree,) and quickly starting families. This doesn’t give those girls the time to figure out what kind of adult human being they’re going to eventually become.
I’m wondering, did you eventually go to college? Did you marry early and start having children?
Oh, yes, and another thought, even if a woman gets married young and has children and is a stay-home mom, it isn’t a waste for her to get her education because having an education is far more than earning potential.
July 11th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Sorry, Troubled, you answered one of my questions toward the end of your post.
You are presently a student? What is your major? Are you happy you decided to go to school anyway?
July 11th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Ellie,
I know what you mean about Welsh names. They’re brutal.
I live near Uwchlan. Our church is in Upper Uwchlan. The U.S. Post office *for* Upper Uwchlan misspelled Uwchlan as “Uwchland.” in big bold letters on the side of their building.
Bala Cynwyd, Wynwood, I could go on. My mom has friends from Wales and they are the only ones who could visit us and pronounce those names correctly.
And if we didn’t have trouble with the Welsh, the Native American names are equally brutal.
July 11th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
DB thats hilarious about the post office misspelling Uwchlan on the side of the building! Also, I’m really impressed with your daughters! They all sound like great kids, and I think it’s wonderful that you plan on going to med school. Wow!
July 11th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Wow my comment had so many grammatical and sentence structure errors its a surprise I graduated high school!
DB,
but I really believe this is what God has called me to do and for the most part people are supportive. And yes I agree that an education will be helpful for me regardless. Even if I do get married young and never get to use my degree in a career, maybe God will call me to homeschool my kids, or maybe (I am planning on using my degree to work with special needs children) I will have a child who needs special help and I will be work with this child from home. God will use these gifts wherever he places me.
Yes I am in college right now studying psychology – another surprise to those in the church
And its true, some girls do marry young, but obviously that is what God had called them to, it was in his will, and he can still work in their lives. His will is ultimately better than our plans would ever be.
July 12th, 2008 at 6:28 am
Hi Troubled,
I think that what you are doing with your life right now sounds really good, and it’s apparent your heart is in the right place. I think it’s wonderful that you hope to get married some day and use your education to serve others. I trust that God will guide and bless you!
I wasn’t raised in a Christian home. We did go to church while I was growing up, and I’m grateful for the times when I recall learning bible stories and memorizing verses as a child. But my parents weren’t committed Christians, and the bible was not honored in my family. I longed for things to be different, and so when I became a Christian in college, it filled me with love, hope and joy like I had never known!
I loved meeting Christians and still do. But back when I was a college student, I was unknowingly vulnerable to being “taken in”. My heart’s desire was to follow God, but I didn’t enjoy the support of my family like a lot of young Christians do. In fact, my parents made things very difficult for me, and discouraged me from even reading the bible! I wish that I would have known their understanding and support, but instead at every turn I was told I was doing the wrong thing. To this day I wish that I had a supportive family, but like a lot of other people I don’t.
I wish that every child were raised in a solid Christian home. I wish that all marriages were characterized by love and unity, and the atmosphere of everyone’s home was that of peace. I wish that all churches were wholesome and sound, where each person, regardless of their background and upbringing, married or single, could find meaningful relationships in Christ. I wish that we could all get along.
I think it’s natural that we all want what is best for our lives. Thank God he has placed people in our lives that set good examples for us to follow and can help us along the Way. Thank God for those of you that were raised a Christian and enjoy the benefits of an extended Christian family.
But as you know, this world we live in is broken and full of suffering. Jesus was manifest to destroy the works of the enemy, and the church is the vanguard of the Kingdom. The doors should be open to everyone and the message shouldn’t be about fitting in with the culture of a particular church, or about attending all the meetings. The church shouldn’t be a hiding place to keep us insulated from the world, but rather a place where we can be equipped to go into the world and help extend the Great Commission.
SGM will equip you to become a better and better SGM member. You will be encouraged to develop an SGM worldview and to understand the problems facing Christians in SGM – such as how you should dress, how to not send your kids to public school, how to make the life of your pastor a joy, how to submit, etc.
If you want to live your Christian life conforming to the expectations of others, then SGM is for you. But please don’t allow yourself to think that the Lord is building His church, and that it’s supposed to look like SGM.
Let me ask you: Why do you think SGM promotes itself has having the best local churches around?
Do you think of your church as being the best church around?
Did you answer those questions based on what you think is the right public response, or based on what you’ve actually been taught in SGM?
And lastly: Is your identification with Christ largely based on your identification as a member of your SGM church?
July 12th, 2008 at 7:47 am
Claireon said,
“But as you know, this world we live in is broken and full of suffering. Jesus was manifest to destroy the works of the enemy, and the church is the vanguard of the Kingdom. The doors should be open to everyone and the message shouldn’t be about fitting in with the culture of a particular church, or about attending all the meetings. The church shouldn’t be a hiding place to keep us insulated from the world, but rather a place where we can be equipped to go into the world and help extend the Great Commission.”
It seems to me that at least some in SGM want to present a scrubbed clean, sanitized, neat and packaged version of Christianity, where everyone looks and acts the same and has their ducks in a row, at least from the outside.
But God chose to run the New Testament on grace which tends to be very messy. I friend of mine sent this video to me. THIS, in truth, is what the church looks like. It’s messy, but God is in the midst of it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvDDc5RB6FQ
July 12th, 2008 at 8:04 am
MM:
Well, it was pretty devastating to him at the time. That was a rough time for my family. It’s been quite a while since that happened, though, so I think my parents have mostly moved on, though there are obviously still some painful memories. In retrospect, it was better that we were kicked out right away before becoming more involved / integrated, but it didn’t seem that way at the time…
July 12th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Well said, Claireon! (#116) :smile:
July 12th, 2008 at 8:51 am
Gracie,
I love that video! The first time I saw it, I was deeply moved-the only response was to hit the ground and give thanks to our incredible God.
I feel that it’s sad that it turned into an appeal for money.
July 12th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Claireon,
You need to be careful of some sweeping generalization statements you are making of all sgm churches and their members. You haven’t met every member, and you probably haven’t been to every church. You also can’t assume that God is not building his church in SGM. He is present and I have witnessed him in the hearts of the members, in prayer, in changed lives such as my own, and this makes me so grateful for the teaching I have received.
I may attend a SGM church, but that does not mean I am conforming to everything they do, in fact there are many things I don’t necessarily like about the church. But they are minor things in comparison to the wonderful teaching on the gospel. If it came to whether or not I wanted to leave and I had to weigh in the good things and the bad things about my church, the good ones would most definitely win.
As to your questions… sorry, I didn’t understand your first one. Maybe I’m misreading it or something
??:
I don’t know if my church is the best church around, I know we do things wrong, every church has weaknesses, but they also have strengths. I know other churches do certain things better than my church, nobody is perfect though. There is no perfect church. I think it would be wrong for me to attend my church if I did not love and cherish it, and I do. I feel it is where God has me right now, he is meeting me there. I answer that question out of a heart of love for my church, my caregroup and my pastors. I can’t be taught to love it if I simply don’t. I love my church because I love how I see God through it. I love the fellowship I have with my friends, some whom I’ve known for my whole life. I love how my relationship with God began at my church and has grown in leaps and bounds not only from the teaching and worship, but from my personal times with God where he meets me and speaks to me directly. I am not a conformist to the church, in fact I have at times bugged my friends about doing things certain ways just because the church does it – not that its wrong the way they do it, but its not the only right way.
I do not identify myself with Christ through my church, I identify with him through my own personal relationship with him. He has saved ME from MY sins. The pastors can’t do that, my parents can’t do that, my friends can’t do that and they can’t make me believe that. That is something God must reveal to me himself. He has to soften my heart with his word. This may come by way of the pastors or parents or friends, but its not their doing and they would be first to admit that.
I don’t appreciate being thrown into a bunch of SGM conformists – because that is a blanket statement and a logical fallacy, therefore any statement you are trying to make is then void. There are people like that out there, but not every person is one of those.
Thanks for those questions they made me think, and please don’t take my replies as harsh, I am just trying to stand up for myself, my relationship with God, and also my church.
Gracie,
Thanks for putting up that video, it really moved me. Your comment however about SGM presenting a clean version of Christianity is something I have never encountered. In fact it is quite the opposite. In my lifetime I have witnessed some serious sins in the church. There have been messy relationships, people who simply stop speaking to one another, anger, adultery, divorce, suicide, addiction, theft, etc etc…. You can’t cover up sin! We also can’t dwell on it. We have to recognize grace because God has already forgiven us of our sins. We can see his work in our lives when we think about how much we’ve changed or grown over the years. We don’t want sin to define our church because that is not what sanctification is about – its about growth and grace.
July 12th, 2008 at 11:17 am
troubled,
I do think it’s important not to make assumptions. about every SGM member’s experience or attitude. I (and I imagine everyone else here who is no longer part of SGM) am glad that your experience in SGM has been largely positive. And of course not every church in SGM will be exactly the same. I understand your desire to defend your church and if my experiences with and observations of SGM had been different, I would probably feel the same as you.
At the same time I would add that our negative experiences with SGM leaders and members are just as valid as your positive ones. Many of us grew up in SGM, got married there, and/or were members for years and even decades. The criticisms you read here are not coming from people who are ignorant of SGM churches or their culture, but from people who have for the most part invested a lot of their time and emotions in SGM, and some who have raised families there.
In response to your comment at #110 about God’s will, of course you’re right that things that happen to us are God’s will. Many of us who have had negative experiences (at SGM or just in general) have come to a place where we see how those experiences have helped us to grow into stronger people and stronger Christians. But – I’m not sure how to put this clearly – that doesn’t mean that they couldn’t or shouldn’t have been different. I’m sure the extremely strained relationship I have with my parents right now is God’s will in some way, and I have learned a lot in this period, but I don’t think that means that God would be less pleased or displeased if we had a better relationship!
To tie this in to your comment about women marrying young in SGM – I don’t think the issue is the age at which they get married so much as the fact that many women in SGM churches are subtly pushed into getting married young. Not everyone needs to be married by 22 or 25 (and I say this as someone who married soon after graduating from college and has a very happy marital relationship). Not everyone’s courtship or engagement needs to be 3-6 mos as SGM pastors advise. For some people this might be enough time to get to know someone and make a decision to marry them or not, but in many cases this can lead to unwise decisions about marriage that can’t be undone. It’s my observation and that of many others here that the culture in SGM churches pushes young men and women especially to fit into a timetable for marriage that doesn’t work for everyone, which can in some cases distract young people from seeking out God’s particular will for them as individuals. Sure, if a young woman ends up marrying at 20 or 21 to someone she really doesn’t know all that well, in some sense that is God’s will for her. But it would have been better if she had been equipped with the emotional and spiritual tools and support necessary to make a wise and mature choice about marriage. I realize this isn’t what you meant to imply in your comment, but please recognize that for some of us the response that some bad situation or other is “God’s will” has been used to dismiss the real painfulness of those situations and to divert discussion about what could have been done to avoid the situation or what could be done to remedy it . . . hope that made sense.
July 12th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
I second what w-i-p says, and to make the last part a little more specific: the idea that “anything that happens to you is God’s will” has been used by SGM people with me (and probably others here) to say that anything they do is God’s will for me — that is, that it is impossible for them to wrong me or inappropriately exercise their authority, because God is sovereign, and therefore everything they do must be the best action, and exactly what God wants for me.
I don’t think this position holds water at all, since they’re basically saying either that they’re incapable of sin, or that their sin is incapable of harming others — both things that SGM disagrees with doctrinally, so it seems like this explanation is both inconsistent and rather disingenuous… but for that reason, I think it’s good to be cautious in using “God’s will” to mitigate the real harm that SGM leaders have done to some people in the church. Even if God is sovereign, leaders should still be accountable for sinful actions, especially when there is a consistent pattern over many years and in many churches.
July 12th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Hi Again Troubled,
I thought your response was very good and you did a good job explaining your thoughts and feelings. Although I put you on the defensive, I didn’t feel you were harsh. I do think it would be helpful if you could be more specific in your explanations.
I understand that you are not wanting to feel like a conformist. The statements I made were based on evidence of the techniques SGM uses to manipulate people into submitting to group norms. I get the impression you are well aware of this pressure to conform because you shared there are times when you need to purposely go against what they teach in order to feel like a nonconformist. I’m not sure what those things are, but I’m glad to know you’re aware of the struggle.
In your studies on psychology I’m sure you will learn that there are numerous ways a person can learn to manipulate others, especially if that person is determined to lead and be in control. One of the most powerful psychological forms of persuasion is peer pressure, and within SGM, conformity is accomplished in steps. The change that occurs normally happens unconsciously.
I’m sure, for example, that no one in SGM told you directly that you should not study psychology, but you’ve probably experienced some indirect disapproval. SGM taught a series on the “therapeutic movement” years ago, which caused people to be suspicious about receiving counseling from any source other than SGM. The indirect directive is that studying psychology and psychiatry is counter intuitive to the gospel of SGM. What possible good could come from focusing on yourself when you shouldn’t trust your heart, and your best efforts are characterized by sin?
Notice, too, how often SGM draws attention to certain people and their behavior as being the model. They may say they are “honoring” someone for their “service” or “humility” but they are really using them to convey the message: “This is the standard of behavior we want you to imitate”. Also, quoting a single bible verse over and over, such as CJ’s favorite about submitting to leadership, or his wife’s repetitious use of Titus 2, is meant as a means of conformity to group norms. This is why so many people describe SGM as cultish, because they have created an atmosphere in which they state or imply that there is only one way to be and this is it.
By the way, when I asked you “Why do you think SGM promotes itself has having the best local churches around?” I see that I made a typo. It should read, “Why do you think SGM promotes itself AS having the best local churches around?”
Maybe it would help if I rephrased the question. Why do you think SGM encourages their members to think that their local SGM church is the best one around?
July 12th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Sorry… if I said that “anything that happens to you is God’s will” I certainly didn’t mean it that way. I don’t believe that because God gives us free will, which can cause sin and pain. I agree with you Beady Sea that God is sovereign. If we stray off the path, he is still there with us and as he says in Romans, he works all for the good of those who love him.
work in progress,
I’m continuing to think about all of this….
Yes I agree that some of your negative experiences are just as valid as my positive ones. I think the negative ones need to be taken into account when it comes to evaluating the church. I am here to take to mind the negative things about sgm that I may or may not already be aware of, and see where I stand. I don’t want to water down your negative experiences at all by trying to cover them up with positive things. I’m only saying it isn’t right to take your thoughts about some interactions you had with your sgm church and apply it to every member of sgm. Every church is different and every person is different, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. I appreciate your thoughts on making sure I do take into account the negative side as well as the positive.
July 12th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Hi Beady Sea,
You wrote:
I’ve wondered if SGM, and specifically CJ Mahaney, will ever address the way they assumed authority. I really don’t see how they can have it both ways. If they are hoping to become labeled as Reformed (and Protestant?), then I would think they would have to acknowledge that their use of the title of Apostle was erroneous. Or will they act like a chameleon and simply change colors but stay the same animal?
Does anyone know what I’m driving at?
I question whether their authority is legitimate in the first place.
July 12th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
I sorta gotta a chuckle out of your question, Gamaliel. I don’t mean to make fun of you, but it just struck me as humorous that you seem to think that what I shared in post #45 was something one might not have heard because they missed one mee-Ting, as if the message was not repeatedly conveyed!
Btw, I hope you don’t mind me asking how old you are?
July 12th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Troubled,
I am glad to hear that you have never experienced these issues. They are nonetheless very, very real to those of us who have. I do appreciate your willingness to acknowledge them as real and sympathize with us.
When we were rejected from PDI (a long time ago), my daughters were toddlers. They did not grow up in the movement. Within the past few years, we attended a family wedding in a SGM church that is often listed on this blog as one of the worst offenders. After attending a few meetings, showers, and the wedding and observing the interaction of members there, BOTH of my now grown daughters asked why all the women were like Stepford wives. Keep in mind, we did not discuss PDI with our daughters. We would have had no reason to. We had moved on long ago. These were their own observations. There was a conformity and uniformity that were obvious to an unbiased outsider. It was troubling to them.
So, that is one very small (and relatively recent) example of why I view SGM as a very sterile version of Christianity. But, if you are free to hear the Lord’s voice for yourself and follow Him even if it goes against the SGM grain, then good for you! They made it impossible for us to do so.
July 12th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Troubled,
I’m glad you are getting an education. I’m a Psychology minor and I find the subject fascinating. If I don’t get into med school, I’ll likely go for my Mastors or PhD in Psych as an alternative (That or PA school :razz: )
I think a couple of things trouble me (excuse the pun,) about the young women marrying at a young age. I got married very young and there is a poverty associated with being married (or more specifically with children.) I was a SAHM for almost 26 years before going back to school and I have the upmost respect for SAHM’s. To intentionally put so many couples through that stress is simply not wise in my opinion. Also, if the husband is finishing *his* education and the majority of young wives are significantly younger than the husband, there is a general dynamic of power inbalance that is rife with potential for abuse. In fact, I know a story of a couple that was counciled by the pastors of my PDI/SG church to not get married because the woman was a professional with a degree while the man was in the trades (I bellieve he was a carpenter.) They actually asked this couple for their engagement ring as a sign or obedience to their council (I don’t believe they actually took possession of the ring, however.)
Clareon, Thank you for the kind words for my daughters, They are amongst my very best friends.
July 12th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
DB,
:shock:
Did they end up getting married?
July 13th, 2008 at 2:06 am
DB-
What exactly did they say this couple needed to do before they could get the church’s blessing to marry?
July 13th, 2008 at 8:28 am
I heard this story in the early ’90′s when I was still in PDI but was having conflicts with the leadership.
This couple was friends with my cousin (who is a Christian.) They ended up getting married and were (at least at the time,) happily married. I am very close to my cousin and I’ll ask her about this couple.
musicman, I think the groom would need to get a degree equal to the bride in order to have the church’s blessing. It had something to do with an educated woman not being able to naturally submit to a less educated man.
July 13th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
DB,
I think you have shared how long you were in SGM, but I don’t recall. Assuming that you were in the organization for a fairly long time and were a STHM through it all, I’m curious about how their teaching affected your marriage. Did you observe the effect of SGM’s teachings on your husband or other men that had a detrimental effect on either you or the wives they were married to? Like issues of control or abuse?
Also, (and again out of curiosity), you said you got married when you were young. Had you finished your undergraduate degree before you got married? Had you planned on returning to school for years before you finally did so? How did you come to that decision?
I know these are pretty personal questions, so you can email me if you wish. Just let me know and I’ll give you my address.
July 13th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
I don’t have sufficient time now, but the quick answer is extremely detrimental.
I’ll have the luxury of time tomorrow and, if you can stand it, regale you with my opinion and stories.
I was at my church for almost ten years.
July 13th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Ok great DB…and thanks.
I’ll look forward to hearing from you :smile:
July 13th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Claireon,
??: I will admit there are problems, but I’d rather not go into detail unless I feel I need to. 
Sorry I was vague… I’d prefer not to go into details because I’m not comfortable talking about the things I don’t like about my church on here.
Also your question about the local church… I think they say this because if people have made this their local church, it should be THEIR church. They should be investing into it, and loving it. So to them it should be the “best”. Although, on the flip side, I have heard many times from the pastors that there are lots of other good churches and that the important thing is finding a local church, it doesn’t always have to be at a sgm church.
Thanks for all of your comments… I’m finding all of this very interesting because while reading, I come up with my initial thoughts, and then I see what you all have to say and I’m able to evaluate it and see if I agree or disagree, or somewhere in between.
July 14th, 2008 at 5:53 am
I think there’s a difference between SAYING tthat here are, of course, lots of other fine churches out there and SGM/CLC is just one of those–and then LIVING this by actively working together with other congregations.
I do know over the years that a number of CLC kids attended school at Church of the Redeemer, at Fourth Presbyterian, or Montrose Baptist. I also know that lots of home schoolers attend the Chieftan Institute at Derwood Bible (I think that’s the sponsoring church). The Covenant Life Cougars play against a number of other teams on the private schooll league that come from other churches.
My brief sojourn as a homeschool mom (while teaching fulltime in a public school) showed me that there is a whole ‘nother layer of community that is far more appealing than that available to me normally at CLC–more nurturing, more connections with other women, more connections as well with other Christians through MAACHE. I could see that life might be tolerable at CLC if I fit the mold a little more–and flew under the radar enough.
Good job, Troubled! That’s exactly what you should be doing.
July 14th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Clarieon asked me a few questions and I have cut and pasted her post in order to remember all of her queries.
Quote from Clareion,
“DB,I think you have shared how long you were in SGM, but I don’t recall. Assuming that you were in the organization for a fairly long time and were a STHM through it all, I’m curious about how their teaching affected your marriage. Did you observe the effect of SGM’s teachings on your husband or other men that had a detrimental effect on either you or the wives they were married to? Like issues of control or abuse?”
Their wife only submission teaching was extremely detrimental to our marriage. I must back up in order for you to understand my circumstances at the time. When I got pregnant with my first child, the rest of my family moved from Pennsylvania to California because my dad was offered a good career opportunity. In retrospect, losing my family at such a vulnerable point in my life made me ripe for the picking for an authoritarian system like PDI/SG churches. I actually come from a long line of strong opinionated women on both sides of my family. Although my mom was a SAHM during my childhood, my dad (because his mother expected him to contribute to the housekeeping when he was growing up,) did his fair share of the cleaning and childcare when he wasn’t working. IOW, he was a lot like typical fathers in our present age. When Jessica was a toddler, I responded to the Gospel message and became a Christian. My husband and I became Christians at the same time. I believe because we were distant (geographically) from family, we were vulnerable to the authoritarian element of the universal church. At first, we were members of a rather toxic indie Charismatic church. The church was starting to fall apart from factions within the church when we took some of the youth to the Creation festival. We thought we were going for the Christian bands, but we got to hear Larry Tomszac speak for the first time. We were impressed with his vision for the local church. We actually called down to CLC in Maryland to see if they were planting a church in the Philly area and we discovered they were. We attended their first meeting in 1984.
Unfortunately, the meeting was a marriage seminar and I believe they used some of Gothard’s materials. I clearly remember some gems from that series of meetings. We women were, for example, supposed to describe our hair style based upon our submission to our husbands. Obviously, short hair wasn’t favored. We were supposed to let our husbands order for us when we were out to dinner (dh couldn’t choose something because our tastes in food are so different.)
Women were clearly subordinate to men in this system. I tried, trust me, it would have been easier just to conform, but it isn’t in my nature to be quiet, docile, and servile. I was told that I couldn’t talk more than my husband in care group. DH is quiet and introverted, so I ended up not saying a word in care group. Then I would be approached (by the same flipping person, mind you,) and told that I was quiet and sullen and my sullenness reflected poorly on my husband (!) (Note: she didn’t care that I was falling into depression, I was there to give dh a good reputation.)
Yes, in retrospect, I was becoming depressed because the person I am was completely unacceptable and I couldn’t make myself fit into the mold they wanted me to become.
If I look at the people held up as living examples of PDI Christianity, I would have run, far away, from that template. Our care group leaders, for example. They had their first son and the husband wanted to name him an unusual name that was in his family. She didn’t want to give her son that name so they agreed to use his middle (more common,) name and his first name would be an heirloom name that wouldn’t be his everyday name. For a month, the newborn baby was called by his middle name. Then the father decided he wanted the boy called by his first name. This was a unilateral decision on his part and the wife was clearly upset but she grinned and bore the burden and was held up as a shining example of wifely submission. This same man decided to get an unruly rescue dog against his wife’s wishes. She cleaned up the feces, she cleaned up the chewed up bits of house and furniture, and she went to the pound when the dog ran away. It was always she who was holding on to the (experlitive,) dog’s collar to keep it in control, but he was the head of the house and got to bring such a dog into the family against the wife’s wishes. Personally, I would have let the beast play in traffic, but, then again, I’m wicked, rebellious, and unsubmissive.
Also, it was always my fault. When we were being discipled, he would be semi-abusive (and a couple of times, downright abusive,) and it would be *me* under scrutiny because I wasn’t forgiving him. Hello, I forgave him but it just would take a little while for me to stop hurting. I believe he felt entitled to be nasty because of the power that he was given in a wife-only submission power structure. IOW, he could justify his nastiness because I wasn’t ever submissive enough.
This style of oppression was widespread within the church. Some husbands would micromanage their wives’ diets, one husband ordered his wife to wear sleeves in spite of the ongoing heat wave and no air conditioning. One of the pastors gave a sermon and within the sermon, he was *joking* about how he let one of his children sit in a dirt diaper for an extended period of time so hiss wife could change it when she got home. Yes, this man was “babysitting” his own freaking children (they would commonly ask the husbands to step up and “serve” their wives by “babysitting” her children (hello? Babysitting?!)
Curiously, and it took a slow girl awhile to connect the dots, my mom moved back into the area in 1991 and she just couldn’t believe, in her words, I could fall for such garbage. I believe she gave me the strength and the moral compass to start listening to my heart and my own good common sense with regard to husband-wife relationships. As I did more research, I was convinced that an egalitarian system was more godly and resonated within my heart. Dh and I make decisions together and respect one another’s opinions. We’ve gone through a lot and have a great relationship with one another now. We have learned to communicate effectively and lovingly. We do not have, “take no prisoners,” fights because we do, after all, love one another and are committed to one another. Dh is much more comfortable in an egalitarian marriage. I believe the stress experienced by the men is significant and often overlooked. A lot of times, we will not see eye to eye on an issue. Instead of Dh always having his way, we discuss and more importantly, we *pray* over an issue and both of us try to stay open to having our opinion change. Also, we have our areas of expertise. Usually, we defer to the other in their areas of expertise. I’m sorry this turned into a novel.
Another quote, “Also, (and again out of curiosity), you said you got married when you were young. Had you finished your undergraduate degree before you got married? Had you planned on returning to school for years before you finally did so? How did you come to that decision?”
I was supposed to go to Penn State when I got pregnant with Jessica. I went on to have seven more children over a period of twenty years. Jessica and Julianna are exactly 20 years and one week apart. When Julianna went to Kindergarten, I took one class to see if I would like school. I loved school. I took two classes the following spring and went to school fullttime the following fall (when Julianna was in first grade.) I have always wanted to go to school but I didn’t want to push my children too soon. It was logical to start when my baby started school.
I really like going to school. I actually get to go with Jessica and my cousin, Addy. Jess is a History and Education major so I don’t get to see much of her but Addy is a Bio major and I get to see her a couple of times a week. I think I would be happy going to school the rest of my life but I have always been interested in medicine and healing people. I really want to go into family practice and integrate alternative modalities with allopathic medicine. Also, medicine is one of those disciplines in which one is always learning. (sorry, another novel.)
One last quote, “I know these are pretty personal questions, so you can email me if you wish. Just let me know and I’ll give you my address.”
I am happy to answer your questions. It’s one way to get to know one another a little better. I am glad to answer any additional questions.
July 14th, 2008 at 8:25 am
Very cool, DB! Thanks for sharing! It DOES help us to get to know one another.
Your mother’s “remark” sounds like something I would say to my children!
I “went along with it”, trying to fit in, but I never bought in to it. We did a good job flying under the radar. My husband would always tease me about submitting to him. He knew I could NEVER be a “SG wife” and was quite “flirty” about it, letting me know he LIKED “rebellious women”, and that was why he married me!
July 14th, 2008 at 8:46 am
Toward the end, we started refering to the model PDI/SG women as the Stepford Wives.
There was one pastor’s wife in partucluar, who was known for her husband-wife priority over mother-child type who was of the wrap yourself in saran wrap and meet him at the door pursuasion.
Although dh would likely be aroused by the experience, I cannot mentally overcome the logistical nightmare *or* the very real possibility the mailman or neighbor child would be ringing my bell instead of dh.
Yes, we made up private jokes, I figure we were entitled to our private jokes after all we had been through.
July 14th, 2008 at 8:47 am
DB,
Your examples of how you were taught to think of yourself as less valuable compared to your husband were so easy for me relate to. I’m so glad you had a good relationship with your parents, especially your Mom, and she was instrumental in helping you see the damage being inflicted upon you. I know a lot of us women reading your experience can relate to the lack of support you experienced while experiencing problems in your marriage relationship. SGM places the man’s position in marriage on a higher moral plane and I think SGM women feel forced to stay quiet about any abuse they are suffering and are led to hope the next stupid marriage seminar will fix things. At least that’s what strung me along. But in reality the marriage seminars only served to reinforce the polarity. Women: be this way! Men: be that way! There was no mystery involved in marriage (Eph 5:32) because they had it all solved!
This has to be true, and I’m glad you included this. When the emphasis is all on roles and responsibilities, with the men constantly being harangued to be more like Tom or Dick (but not Hairy because bald is cool), I’m sure the men are always under stress because the standards for performance are designed to be impossible to meet. They are being controlled while told they are in control.
I’m so glad your marriage survived, and I pray that others get out before the damage to their marriage is irreparable. DB, there’s so much we have in common and I’m sure that other woman reading this site can add their amen to what you shared as well. Thanks!
July 14th, 2008 at 8:59 am
Claireon, you and DB are “dead on” about the stress:
I saw this over and over again in our SG church. I personally feel it contributes to alot of the emotional abuse going on within SG marriages. Then there are those men who are controlling “b_ _ _holes” (I was nice) that SGM provides a “sanctuary” for!
There were many reasons God made Eve, to be Adam’s “helper” was a “big one”.
July 14th, 2008 at 9:18 am
DB,
I wanted to thank you for sharing as well. We too sat under the “wife submit” marriage training. Fortunately for me, my husband did not buy in, even for a moment. He actually LIKES women better than men and greatly respects what they bring to the Kingdom, so our marriage remained in tact through those seminars. In fact, as I think back, I would be frustrated with him because he didn’t LEAD in a strong enough manner as we were taught. But I was so eager to fit the mold myself and my personality was very suited to it. Quiet, demure, respectful, submissive. Thankfully, God and my husband had better things in mind for me than becoming a Stepford wife (for lack of a better description).
DB said,
I.
I did watch other marriages suffer and other wives begin to mold themselves into that PDI “ideal” which totally squelched their God-given personality and giftings. And I know of at least one woman who was always blamed for being unsubmissive during marriage problems or counseling, even though her husband was abusive.
I’m with Claireon – I’m glad your marriage survived. They don’t all make it.
July 14th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Off topic here, but you know, the more I read God’s word for myself, with the Holy Spirit guiding me word for word, the more I realize how “complicated” we’ve all made it.
I’m the happiest in my faith when I’m “childlike”. Theology and education are important, but the older I get the more I realize it’s the “childlike attitude”, a “Christian common sense” kind of approach, that serves me the best.
If God had made it complicated the “uneducated” would have never gleaned the truths that made many of them some of the “greats” in Christendom.
I am ashamed at how many times I’ve made it complicated, laying down my Bible and looking to some man or church, or some book or degree. Thank goodness for God’s patience with me, He’s such a good Father!
Random, I know, but it’s just something God keeps bringing to my mind to remind me of what my “motivation” was for joining SGM. I’m sure it’s not what motivates most, but it’s what motivated me. :sad:
July 14th, 2008 at 9:45 am
DB,
Thanks for sharing your experiences with us. What’s so scary to me is that I have personally heard SGM leaders saying things similar to what you heard in the 80s, even though I was in SGM from the mid 90s-mid 2000s.
My husband and I had our premarital counseling through SGM only a few years ago (that was a BIG MISTAKE and a sad/hilarious story in and of itself). The SGM caregroup leader who did our counseling – I deliberately don’t say it was a couple, because the wife almost never spoke either time we met as couples – was really big on pushing how my now husband should “lead” us through various things. “Leading” included deciding where we would go on date nights beforehand, ordering for me, assigning reading for date nights (!!!), and having a list of questions to ask me about our marriage or spiritual lives to keep the conversation going. I told my husband that if he EVER assigned me reading for one of our dates, I would seriously hurt him.
We also had the issue that I am much more talkative than my husband in general, and especially in situations with people we don’t know (as in this case). Our premarital counselor was kind of insistent about pointing out how quiet my husband was being. In fact in our second meeting he asked my husband if his quietness was due to being “intimidated” by him, because y’know, many people found him intimidating ’cause he’s an intense sort of guy. My husband and I still laugh about this now – not only is my husband not the type to be easily intimidated by other people, but as other people have pointed out here, by traditional measures of gender conformity (which I don’t buy into personally) this fellow is hardly an impressive specimen of bristling masculinity!
It’s only now that I realize from reading comments here that the fact that I talk more than my husband (and ask pointed questions, and have opinions, while he stays more quiet) is considered a big demerit on the femininity scale in SGM circles!
July 14th, 2008 at 9:47 am
I should clarify that I realized this before, esp. as I’ve never fit into the SGM woman mold, but I’m realizing it even more from reading this site (and realizing that our premarital counselor was probably judging my husband as being “passive” or “abdicating leadership” the entire time we met!).
July 14th, 2008 at 10:06 am
LOL…”hardly an impressive specimen of bristling masculinity”.
Honestly ladies, this fact pops up consistently! We all know C. J. and others abuse the respect they demand as leaders to help them deal with their own personal “insecurities” and areas where they “lack”.
Once again, it’s just “common sense” when you see and hear this stuff. If the children weren’t so obedient in SG churches they would ALL be screaming, “The emperor has no clothes!”
July 14th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Good for you lol. The sessions probably sucked the life right out of your relationship because according to SGM:
July 14th, 2008 at 10:28 am
here’s a better link to the one I posted in #148:
http://audio.kingswaymedia.cc/pdf/4GettingReady.pdf
The rigidness is so apparent!
July 14th, 2008 at 11:07 am
You should have been there and heard it in person, Claireon!
“The Summit Men’s Retreat”…I know folks who attended and heard all about it!
There were those who “clung” to every word, as if God himself had given them instruction. And then there were those who had to go so they could “continue to fly under the radar”, fighting to keep from “throwing up” and trying to appear interested. One guy shared all the materials with me from the weekend. The documents you posted were just some of the material covered.
It was all the “typical SGM propaganda” and teaching for men. Not all of it was “bad”, it just had that SGM slant to everything. They really pushed the fathers to bring their sons. “Promisekeepers SGM style”! As with everything, the young boys sat there obediently and listened, but I was told you could see the ”
” in their eyes. Of course the daddies are clueless; they seldom engage in actual discussion with their sons, and when they do, it’s one-sided! If the boys dare question “ANYTHING” SGM, they know dad will make their lives miserable for them.