Dear SGM Defender,
Thanks for your message. I appreciate that you took the time to write and express your concerns about this site.
First of all, I would like to clarify something: my husband and I are NOT “bitter” against SGM. We did NOT have a bad SGM experience. We continue to plod along with this site because as members of the larger body of Christ, we are concerned about the many stories of abuse that have been (and continue to be) brought to our attention since we put up our first non-committal posts back in November of 2007.
Secondly, while I’m very glad that your own time within your SGM church(es) has been so great, and that you haven’t seen any of the abuses recounted on this site, your personal satisfaction with SGM simply does NOT negate what has happened to others.
But I do understand your confusion.
Your experience has been nothing but positive. Yet here you’re reading about others who have gone through some horrendous stuff at the same place where you’ve seen nothing but good. How is that possible?
The way I look at it, there are a few explanations.
The first explanation is the one that is the most tempting to believe, which is that everyone here is simply misrepresenting the truth. Note, I didn’t say out-and-out lying, but “misrepresenting the truth,” which can take on many nuances. One of those, of course, IS lying. It’s possible that these stories are fabricated. Another of those nuances would be that if we heard the pastor’s side of the story, we would somehow understand his actions and support them. Or perhaps we’re not hearing the full truth.
But while I fully acknowledge that this could be the possibility in some of the stories from unhappy ex-SGMers, the reality – as we’ve already discussed – is that this explanation simply does not make any logical sense for all the stories.
Second explanation for the mind-bending idea that while your time in SGM has been nothing but edifying, others have experienced great pain there: your SGM church is different, and these problems don’t manifest themselves there.
This explanation does have a lot going for it. And I’m going to grant that it’s possible. Definitely, from my perspective, it does seem like certain SGM congregations have more issues than others. Off the top of my head, I can think of a half-dozen SGM locations that seem to come up way more frequently than others.
And yet after doing this site for more than a year and a half, I can say that I’ve pretty much heard from folks at just about every SGM church out there. Right when I’ll think that there IS the exception, someone will send me an email and I’ll realize that SGM’s issues have leached into that location as well.
Third explanation: these problems within SGM have all been addressed in recent years, and the stories are all old.
Well, while there is a bit of truth to this – that some of the stories here are from years ago – I can say that from my perspective, the only thing that has really changed is that SGM leaders have learned how to avoid the more obvious (i.e. potentially legally damaging) pitfalls of abusing their authority. The organization as a whole has also stepped away from openly teaching their cultural expectations. And when they do venture into specifics (such as the teaching about how to choose your child’s education), they are very careful to issue lots of disclaimers…even as there is virtually no way that a spiritually sensitive person could come away from the teaching with anything but the main point that the pastor was really intending to make.
So yeah, on the surface, there have been some changes, many of these for the better. Especially if you’re someone who just sort of goes with the flow and basically follows the SGM lifestyle ideals in the first place, you’ll probably encounter leadership that’s less intrusive and controlling than in past years.
Fourth possibility for why you personally haven’t seen anything like the abuses you’ve read about here: you’ve just not been alert enough to notice it.
I tend to think that this is one of the more likely explanations. I mean, think back over the years and remember the various folks who have left your church. First of all, do you know why they left? Have you spoken to them about why they’re no longer there? Did you sense that they shared their full stories with you? Do you even keep in touch with them now that they’re not part of your SGM church? What have your leaders said about why such-and-such left? Those might be some interesting questions to pursue.
Fifth possibility: you haven’t personally witnessed abuses from your SGM authorities because you have never persistently pursued a different view or opinion than that of your pastors. This one can actually work in tandem with the fourth possibility. Some folks never see anything negative within SGM because they’re both sort of oblivious (they don’t want to ask the hard questions) and they simply have personalities that fit in really well with SGM’s culture. They don’t make waves…and (more importantly) they don’t have any “messy” needs for their pastors to address. They already have a handle on how to lead productive lives, so they incorporate SGM’s teachings and practices into the successful stuff they’re already doing, and it works beautifully.
Sixth possibility, which, again, can work together with explanations four and five: you simply have not entered into SGM’s world deeply enough to absorb the additional definitions and layers of meaning that accompany typical Christian terminology. You think SGM’s stock phrases mean just what they’d mean in any other Christian context.
Seventh possibility: you’ve simply been totally duped by your leaders.
As you might guess, I do not believe that this seventh explanation works for the vast majority of SGM defenders. What goes on within SGM is simply far more nuanced than blatant deception. SGM really does work well for a good percentage of its members, and it’s highly unlikely that they’re all just “duped.”
So, dear SGM defender, I have no idea where your experience fits in this list of potential explanations. But I do understand the confusion this site causes in otherwise happy SGM customers. It’s definitely a conundrum.
Sincerely,
Kris
I never got the "meeting" thing, either. 
August 6th, 2009 at 8:12 am
great post Kris. I whoel heartedly agree that especialll ywiht the lack of acoutnabliity and checks and balances, to have someone just go through 9 months of pastors college and then lead a church is irresponsible. It also bothers me the whole interepretation on Hebrews, that has them saying that people should obey their leaders. I will paste what i posted before eitehr here or at refuge about that passage:
: Joel, you asked how we would interpret and apply Heb 13, particularly vs 17 I am assuming. I would interpret and apply it this way.
I think the passage is talking about not putting up blocks to your leaders that would prevent you from hearing what they are saying and being persuaded by it when it is right. The word that is translated obey in vs 17 is from the Greek word peitho, which means to persuade, and is in this context when it is in the passive voice it means that you should allow yourself to be persuaded. We are to humbly listen to our leaders because they are wise and given to us to help us. We are not to be obstinate to them, just rejecting what they say to us out of hand because this is not profitable to us. Instead we should consider what they say and allow ourselves to be persuaded, if it is valid. I think of it as similar to the Bereans who examined what was said to see if it was right, they didn’t reject it out of hand because they were being arrogant, nor did they just do what was said to them, instead they considered it and allowed themselves to be persuaded if it was correct.
Ray C. Stedman wrote the following in his commentary on Hebrews:
“Several things should be noted about Hebrews 13:17 and 1Thess 5:12. The word “obey” comes from the Greek peitho, “to persuade.” The present imperative middle form, used here, means “permit oneself to be persuaded,” “yield to persuasion.” It definitely does not mean to blindly follow orders. The phrase those who are over you in the Lord should simply be “your leaders in the Lord.” There is no thought of being “over” anyone, or others being “under” a leader. The authority of a Christian leader is not command authority but servant leadership. A servant has authority, as Jesus said he had, because he awakens by his loving service a desire to comply. Or he is persuasive because of his logic or knowledge.”
Thus I would disagree with especially points 4 and 5, the “fundamental definition of obey” in this scripture does not mean “If they tell you to do something, do it.” Instead we are to consider what they say and do it if we are persuaded by it, while not being arrogant and instead allowing us to be persuaded.
I also think this verse and the situation needs to be examined in terms of the church government structure. If these leaders are leaders who you have elected because you have seen them as wise and Godly, and who are not autonomous but are accountable to you, and who if they step out of line there are consequences for, then this is seen in a whole different light. There is much less a chance of the ability for abuse that this passage seemingly gives in that situation.
Now, to be clear, I am not one who thinks there is no authority over Christians. I do think there is authority in the church and the church can hold members accountable, but that authority is to be held by the whole congregation, not just the leaders.”
Sorry for the long post, but i just think that this is one of many passages where there is a tendancy to misinterpret it based on how it looks, where a full seminary education might give someone the ability to really study it and know that it doesnt say exactly what CJ is saying.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:22 am
Mack said,
“This despite the fact that he was the only pastor on staff who had gone through the entire Biblical Counseling Foundations training and was a certified counselor. It was bizarre!”
Why does that not surprise me?
CJ, Brent…ALL THE BIG SGM BOYS…are intimidated by such men and see them as a threat.
It’s quite interesting how often you see this type of thing in churches and organizations like SGM and the homeschool community. I saw self-proclaimed homeschool experts with absolutely no background in education or child development (some never finished college) rise up out of the movement and drive out many of those who did.
I’m *NOT* saying you need an education or child development degree to homeschool…I’ll be the first to say that you absolutely do not. However, it’s bizarre when “less qualified” folks from a degree perspective come along and literally “go after” those who are.
It reminds me of the town drunk in my little hometown who got saved one day and IMMEDIATELY started preaching, starting his own little independent church out in the country. He would pound his Bible and scream every Sunday, “I only have a 5th grade education. I don’t need ‘man’s’ education to preach the ‘word of God’.” He would then follow up with some type of put-down joke about “learn-ed” men from the seminaries. (Obviously he was ‘protesting too much’.)
August 6th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Btw, I am aware of Brent’s educational background.
Bless his heart, he suffers from insecurity and a few other things.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Francie,
Thanks for stopping by and posting about how you are doing. That is SO encouraging. Everything is so fresh for me right now as I process thru everything and it is so amazing to see how people like you are doing who have been out for a while. God is so good!
Kris, I was really struck when you mentioned figuring out “which parts were ever-so-slightly twisted that they became destructive, drags on your intimacy with the Lord.”
That is so big for me right now. I look back and see so many positives, but then I also look back at the depression and spiritual deadness I felt. This was so foreign to me as I had never experienced spiritual depression to the same extent that I did in my years at SGM. Every once in a while I would wonder if it was SGM – especially because of the sin-focus, but I never found anybody that agreed with me out here on the www. (I’m one of the people who found this site by periodically typing in SGM + cult) I usually would conclude that it was “just me”. I’m so thankful that there is now a place for people to process and experience freedom in Christ as well as sift thru what is true and good from what was “off”. Despite being in the middle of my “detox” I can still thankfully say that I’ve felt more alive and in love with Jesus now than I have in a long time!
August 7th, 2009 at 12:22 am
“Where it gets sticky, though, is that even though the Bible does tell us to “obey our leaders,” the Bible also has much larger themes of the priesthood of ALL believers, and there’s that entire passage where Jesus Himself tells His disciples that they are to submit to each other and NOT “lord it over” one another…”
I cannot imagine that CJ goes all over preaching that verse like that and is not challenged on it’s horrible translation. But many pastors use that verse and as you say, they ignore Matthew passage about not lording it over, the first will be last, and all the one anothers that also apply to pastors. did I mention all the servant and lowly passages?
On the right side of my blog http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/ is a 4 part series
that analyzes this passage in depth. The Greek was tweaked to show rulers whose authority must be obeyed. Funny how these same Greek words are translated differently in other passages. It would do us all well to remember that these were translated by those laboring under a king and church/state with magistrates. We are blessed to live in a time when we have so many resources at our fingertips to check on translations. And with this one we must because it clearly contradicts other NT scripture.
If it is the correct interpretation then anyone who did not obey Jim Jones by drinking kool aid would have been in sin. IF that translation is correct, then how would anyone ever be able to discern or stand up to to a wolf or hirling in the Body?
August 7th, 2009 at 7:16 am
Presbyterian and Lin,
Thanks for the perspectives on how the word “obey” might not actually mean what we think of as “obey” if it were translated correctly.
I don’t actually think it’s an accident that CJ Mahaney’s The Dearest Place On Earth is such an emphasized teaching. When you think of the practically limitless possibilities of what pastors could preach about, there’s usually a REASON when something gets hammered on over and over again.
Yes, sometimes it can truly be simply a matter of what the Holy Spirit is doing, when a certain message becomes a recurring theme.
But…when you think about the implications of obedience to one’s church leaders, especially within the context of SGM’s already-hyper-submissive culture, it takes on different implications.
I mean, when was the last time an SGM pastor covered the theme of the priesthood of all believers? When have SGMers been taught about that? Why the lack of balance?
I’ve said this before, but by CJ’s own twisted logic, he himself was in sin for leaving the Catholic church of his younger days, when he anointed himself and launched TAG/Gathering Of Believers/PDI/SGM.
Or, for that matter, the Reformers were also in sin…and Martin Luther was wrong to post his theses.
When I’ve said this before, some SGM defenders jumped in and said that there’s a caveat to the “you’re in sin if you object to what your leaders are saying/doing” thing. They said this does not apply if your leaders are telling you to do something that contradicts the Bible. (This would, of course, excuse Jim Jones’ followers from drinking the Kool-Aid, and would let Luther off the hook.)
But that caveat is silly, too.
You can’t have it both ways. Either you can believe that leaders are to be “obeyed,” always, and that they simply have a God-ordained superior knowledge of the Bible. Or you can believe that the leader-member relationship dynamic is more nuanced than that of sargeant-recruit.
August 7th, 2009 at 7:40 am
Something else I’ve been thinking of…
One response I’ve gotten again and again from SGM defenders when they find this site is, “Have you approached CJ/Josh/Pastor X to ask him about these things?”
Typically they bring up Matthew 18 when they ask this question, too.
Although I haven’t always shared both of these with the questioners, I tend to have two responses to this sort of question (about whether or not I’ve contacted whichever pastor about what we’re discussing).
First of all, I think it’s bizarre that these SGMers think Matthew 18 should apply to pastors’ public teachings. Matthew 18, the passage they reference (about conflict resolution), begins with, “When your brother sins against you…” I don’t understand why anyone would think that disagreeing with a public teaching means that I somehow feel a brother has “sinned against me,” or that I now have a personal conflict with that person. I don’t. That’s nutty logic.
Secondly – and this is the thing I rarely have discussed, because I really don’t want to offend anyone –
Why should I place more value upon a pastor’s opinion of his own teachings or actions than I place on what my own eyes and ears (and Holy Spirit-helped understanding) are telling me about said teaching or action?
I’ve thought this again and again when I’ve interacted with SGMers. It is SUCH an ingrained tendency for them to want to run to their pastors and ask their pastors what they should be thinking about any issue that arises.
Like when Noel shared her story. I can’t even begin to tell you guys how much email I got around that time, and most of it was from current SGMers. God bless ‘em, they mostly were horrified at what had happened to Noel and her family (although some wrote, of course, to STILL attempt to defend the pastors in question, but hey, old habits die hard). They were genuinely concerned that such injustices had taken place within their beloved organization.
But what I noticed – and thought was odd – was that most of these folks who wrote me shared that they had gone to their pastors to ask about what happened to Noel. That was their first response.
And that seems to be the first response of SGMers to almost anything that seems wrong or doesn’t jive with what they’ve been taught about SGM.
If they see something they think is wrong or odd or questionable, they first look to their pastors for guidance on what they should think about the thing.
As if their pastors’ explanations/interpretations will be more accurate and superior to what their own eyes and ears (and the whispers of the Holy Spirit) are telling them.
I simply do not understand this.
WHY, especially when the subject at hand is pastoral abuse, or pastoral bad behavior, would someone put more trust in their pastor’s opinion or explanation?
And this is ESPECIALLY true for those situations where a particular pastor would have motivation to spin the truth to reflect best upon SGM or himself!
August 7th, 2009 at 7:47 am
That’s good news, Watching Closely!!
I know what you mean about that feeling of “depression and spiritual deadness.” There have been times I’ve been there myself, it’s not pretty. Every time that I’ve experienced such it’s been “man, legalism, and me trying to measure up” that puts me there. Not God, or some “sin” that I feel is seperating me from God.
(Btw, NOTHING can seperate us from God.
)
SGM is constantly pointing at the sin in folks lives; but I find Christians who truly love the Lord and want to live for Him are QUITE AWARE of their sin. Typically it’s what keeps them down and frustrated. They don’t need to have an “observation brought to them”, they’ve “observed” it for themselves.
THEY NEED SOME GOOD NEWS!!
SGM just can’t seem to accomplish a balance. They’re like parents who are heavy-handed with the discipline and slack with the love. Not enough loving, hugging and enjoying one another, just a constant “do this, don’t do that.”
It’s sad, they don’t understand the power of love. They’ve missed so much of what Jesus actually came to show them.
August 7th, 2009 at 8:00 am
Kris,
I TOTALLY agree!!
It’s crazy!! It’s so…CATHOLIC!!
(My apologies to my Catholic friends. But that is why I’m protestant, afterall.)
August 7th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Lin said:
“I cannot imagine that CJ goes all over preaching that verse like that and is not challenged on it’s horrible translation. But many pastors use that verse and as you say, they ignore Matthew passage about not lording it over, the first will be last, and all the one anothers that also apply to pastors. did I mention all the servant and lowly passages?”
It is a sad reflection on those that Mahaney preaches this to that don’t check the validity of what he is saying including the poor translation. This includes both groups within Sovereign Grace Ministries and those outside of their group. Why people are so quick to take what he teaches without any thought is just baffling.
The message that I heard Mahaney talk about this submission was given to Capitol Hill Baptist Church. Looking at the bios of some of the staff, including some having theological degrees, one would think they wouldn’t be so naive. Apparently they are or were mesmerized by Mahaney’s speaking to ignore basic facts.
I have shared this before but here is a link that shares a story about the need to think:
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2007/12/31/a-favorite-story-about-the-need-to-think-for-yourself/
It is a shame more people aren’t thinking for themselves.
August 8th, 2009 at 7:53 am
Does anyone remember that book, Don’t Check Your Brains at the Door?
Well, that is exactly what has happened to those who attend SGM churches.
The Lord even says , Come let us reason together.
But with SGM there is no reasoning together, there is only their way or the highway.
I think that these churches foster conformity, compliance to their reasoning, and if you don’t obey, or buy into it then you are the one at fault.
And Kris wrote, Why should I place more value upon a pastor’s opinion of his own teachings or actions than I place on what my own eyes and ears (and Holy Spirit-helped understanding) are telling me about said teaching or action?
Well said. The Holy Spirit will lead us and guide us into all truth ———if we will but allow it.
Most people are too afraid to believe that and to free fall into His arms! or to believe that HE will guide them to the teaching and the people HE wants them to know.
August 8th, 2009 at 10:20 am
I recently heard that a thoroughly entrenched long time member once said of those leaving the church:
“Why can’t they just get with the program”?
August 8th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
“If they see something they think is wrong or odd or questionable, they first look to their pastors for guidance on what they should think about the thing.”
Paul, himself, did not do this when confronting Peter about his wrong and hypocritical behavior in Galatians 2. He confronted him publicly on purpose. And think of this, Peter was his more ‘senior’ Apostle. But that accounted for nothing when it came to truth.
In effect, they have been taught to go the pastor to know what to think. That is a very cultic method that works.
This is no different than Driscoll teaching that ‘to question is to be rebellious’. It only benfits the leaders. It is the method they use to try and sanctify sin.
August 24th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Kris,
I guess you’re aware that the reference to SGM Survivors in the “Sovereign Grace Ministries” Wikipedia article has been removed.
Keep up the good work!
August 25th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Quoted from Kris: “One response I’ve gotten again and again from SGM defenders when they find this site is, “Have you approached CJ/Josh/Pastor X to ask him about these things?”
“Why should I place more value upon a pastor’s opinion of his own teachings or actions than I place on what my own eyes and ears (and Holy Spirit-helped understanding) are telling me about said teaching or action?”
Kris…I don’t know the circumstances of course, but is it possible that they meant “have you approached CJ/Josh/Pastor X to point this out and demand an accounting?” Like what Paul did with Peter. I would like to ask that question too, but I don’t mean “have you asked them what to think about this” BUT “have you pointed this out to them” so that you can hear their reaction. They DO have a right to defending their own side, and possibly like Peter they need some serious correction. I would think that this would be the first step–confront them about what you, with the Holy Spirit, have seen as error in their teaching. If they repent (even if it takes a while), GREAT! If not, then go from there. As someone new to this site and one of those dreaded “SGM Defenders,” perhaps I am being naive and you already have and they have NOT repented. Okay then. I just wanted to point out that perhaps THAT is what previous “SGM Defenders” have meant versus “go ask them what to think.”