SGM Survivors

Har de har har.

Oy vey.

You know, why does he find it necessary to take such a mocking tone? And, does he really think that a bunch of people would have nothing better to do than hang around making up stories or imagining themselves to have been abused?

My naughty side is actually hoping, in the tiniest of ways, that the care group he happens to join will be one of those very heavy-handed ones, where he's going to find himself wondering in a couple of years or so how it is that he's sitting in a circle, being forced to confess his sin du jour.

But he'll probably be one of the lucky ones and never see anything negative firsthand. I suppose that's actually a good thing.

I was under the impression that he was already a member of a SGM church. Wonder why he is just now joining a care group?

I predict that ol' Theo will fit right in at his SG church and immediately be identified as leadership material. In fact, I think he will move up the leadership ladder at record speed.

What do you think?

Kindred -

I dunno. From what I read on Theo's blog, I don't think Mrs. Junkie is exactly on board. So he'll probably travel in the glorious fringes, never having to receive SGM's "harder truths" in preparation for leadership.

LOL...oh dear, I was not aware of that! Now that does present a serious problem. Maybe the women in Theo's new care group can persuade Mrs. Junkie. And, hmmmm...let's see...maybe a few tapes and books by Carolyn.

Oh I am soooo thrilled I stumbled on this one post…. Thanks soooo much Ellie

I went to the blog to see if this guy was a shoe-in for Leadership… I don’t call it the Hair Club for Men just for fun. (I couldn’t find a pic) but he is defiantly hardcore Johnathan Edwards type… So he comes to SGM leadership discussions with Kevlar on—you know mostly bullet proof for SGM inspection.

I love this… He is dismissing “survivors” because he’s never had a disagreement with the leaders. So what is the logic here? Since it’s never happened to me it just CANT be true. Why, how much better a judge could there be but Moi?

I’m gonna have to burst this ostrich logic bubble.

There are 5 reasons why people don’t have “conflict” with the Hair Club for Men.

The most obvious reason: You are an ostrich and avoid conflict at all costs.
Psssstt… just keep your head down. It will be ok.

Not all conflicts are created equal:
Truth: On the outside the Hair Club for Men treats most disagreements like a preference for Strawberry vs Vanilla Ice Cream. They didn’t care about your disagreement. It really is that simple. The nature of your objection didn’t rate any action in their mind. They didn’t have a vested interest in the outcome of your objection/disagreement. It doesn’t matter the content of the conversation if they don’t think what you said registers on the “So what test.” They will smile and nod, and let you think whatever you want—sort of. (much more to this point below)

Not all critics are created equal:
The vast percentage of people who say “I’ve disagreed with the pastors an nothing ever happened to me,” are men. Women who come to the leaders with doctrinal objections are dismissed out of hand. And women who come before leaders who are not toeing the submissive mark at home (often defined by abusive or spineless men) and are railroaded into the veritable doctrinal box. It doesn’t matter how polite the Hair Club for Men’s words, women daring to enter the lofty arena of THEOLOGY are not qualified. Be a woman in a discussion about authority, practice, or doctrine and learn what the word Condescension means; they will steeple their fingers and look down there long pious nose and tisk tisk tisk as a mere female tries to influence their great minds about Sound Doctrine.

Not all critics are created equal:
Personal success makes them pause. No matter their protest to my words the Hair Club for Men, venerates economic and business success. (When was the last time you saw a Master Automotive Technician “commended” from the pulpit? Now compare to the last time you saw a New Doctor or a New Lawyer?) As long as your life is seemingly empty of what they consider to be relational or moral issues they will tend towards giving the benefit of the doubt. So, the closer you are to being a life success as defined by money and its accoutrements, the more they will pause any real conflict. But woe to you if they find out what really lurks under the façade of your life. No amount of personal success will deter them then… indeed that very success will become the leaver of their greatest criticism. Woe to YOU!

(As a sub-point to the above) the less impressed they are with your personal/professional achievements ppppfffffft… You are not even worth an honorable mention in the objection category… because God opposes the proud don’t you know, and your lack of success makes it evident that you are on Gods shi—opps displeasure list.

Not all critics are created equal:
The hard truth is they don’t deem YOU a threat. In other words you don’t impress them enough to merit conflict. But once you do disagree … you are on the list. They do NOT forget that you offered a contrary position. The moment you do they are keeping track. ANY objection to their Authority, Practice, or Doctrine is taken with utter seriousness. (Further thoughts from above) Never delude yourself into thinking you had a private conversation with a leading member of the Hair Club for Men. It didn’t happen. If you offered any objection, anywhere, any time, for those three categories the entire leadership team knows about the conversation. And they are NOT amused.

They evaluate how to handle YOU based on these criteria:

1. Are you in any leadership position or aspire to same?
2. Do you “serve?”
3. Do you have the ability to influence people?

If the answer to the first two question is no, they do nothing. They have learned that most objectors will drift off into obscurity if they don’t give the conflict any credence.

The last question is the real litmus that precludes real conflict. (i.e. showing you the door as fast as they can raise their foot to your butt)

Here is the short answer to YOU not having pastoral conflict. You are not as effective in intellectual disagreement as you would like to think.

I know… I know… You talked to a pastor for an hour and had a “deep theological debate”
>snicker<

You walked out of the office and thought you had engaged great minds with great ideas and the pastor saw some of your points and maybe you got through, even just a little bit.
>snicker, snicker<

You went home and told your wife how so very blunt you were and what a great champion of truth you were.
>snicker, snicker, snicker<

Ok… enough of the charade. Forget that myth of blunt dissent you rehears in your mind in the quite moments. Let’s be candid. Come on. We are all anonymous here;you can fess up to the Ethernet.

What did you really say in this great rift of intellectual dispute?

How often did you confess your own pride and arrogance? How often did you caveat and hedge? How many times did you pay homage to the great leaders of SGM and their daunting task at defending sound doctrine? How often did your eyes glaze over when they started chanting quod ubique, quod simper, quod ab omnibus as their definition of Orthodoxy? How obsequious were you truly? Did you post your own version of Disputation on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences or was it more like a Rodney King Theo-missive—“can’t we all just get along?”

Huuummmm???

I am positive that by the time you got done with your disagreement it was so watered down with PDI/CLC/SGM speak that it rated on the order of “I like strawberry ice cream but you like vanilla >sigh< I guess well, just agree to disagree.”

ROTFLMBO

If you really want to see what disagreement looks like with PDI/CLC/SGM walk up to robin boysvert, or Vicar Charles Joseph and say, “Women really do have the ability to understand the details of theology,” and THEN turn and tell ten other people while they watch.

Hahahahahahh aahhahahahahahah hahahahahah….

And I’m not done:

After he looks down his nose and steeples his fingers and tells you that you are having a deleterious effect on people, and suggests that maybe you should start your own church … tell him his Christian practice is WRONG. Tell him you have no obligation to follow him as he follows Christ. Tell him he is WRONG about women. Make sure you say it like that. Make sure you leave no room to doubt that you are in fundamental opposition to his authority to declare women unfit to engage ideas. Never once hedge. Never once dissemble. Oh bold man that you are, never once pay homage to Vicar Charles Joseph I.

Hehehehe…. Hahahahaha ahahahahah….

Then come back to me and tell me how great and humble and magnanimous the Hair Club for Men really is when it comes to disagreement. And I’m betting about that time you will wish that Gandalf was real and could use that staff to kick some booty.

CharlesFinney...

You are simply too much. Thanks for some great laughs - first thing this morning.

I can't put it as eloquently as you obviously can, but I would agree with you and also say I'm betting that the main reason TheoJunkie thinks that we SGM dissenters have to be wrong is because he's never actually pursued a genuine disagreement with his SGM authorities.

Or, quite possibly, he truly agrees with everything they believe.

I just hope, for his sake, that things stay that way.

>snort< which inspires its own brand of nausea

CharlesFinney, I'll tell you what's nauseating, and it's your arrogant and sarcastic attitude. It stinks to high heaven. My difficulty here is that I agree with most of your points. For example, women being able to understand details of theology? Of course I believe that. Other stuff you said I believe as well. I say this to my shame, because I abhor the spirit in which you brought it. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, okay with that.

You dislike Sovereign Grace. They place an emphasis on humility, so we can't have that, can we?! Well, you have done an excellent and thorough job expunging that SGM-tainted practice from your life.

I realize both sides of this ongoing SGM debate are too complicated to reduce to black-and-white, but if I were to simplify it for a minute to two factions with a basic disagreement, why on earth would anyone want to take sides with the people whose speech is characterlzed by bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, foolish talk, and all malice? That's you, John Immel, and it's everyone on here who is applauding your piece of arrogant garbage.

Are you on this forum to be a voice for truth, for openness, for transparency, for acceptance, for love? Or are you here to blow your mouth off? It's easy to angrily spew about whatever irritates you, and to find fault with whatever you want to. Do something difficult for a change. Grow up.



That goes for the rest of you too. What are we here to do? Are we doing it here?

Yes, speak the truth in love. As my mother used to say, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

If you want to persuade people to change, gain their trust with love first. Don't sarcastically put them down.

Thanks Gamaliel.

Hi Gamaliel and SGM single,

If your daughter had been sexually assalted and abused, would you be confronting her about bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, foolish talk, and all malice? I don't think so. And if you did, you would be terribly insensitive. Are you more concerned with the perpetrators and abusers, than you are the victims?

Let these hurting people express their emotions without all of the criticism, shall we?

"Mourn with those who mourn." Don't criticize the way they need to express their hurt! Get off of the religious high horse and hurt with those who hurt. Feel their pain with them and have some empathy.

I am here to hurt with those who hurt, Dennis. Not to chortle at arrogant rants. Grief and pain should be walked through with love, not bitterness and anger. Where in the Bible is that okay?

Did you actually read any of this Gamaliel?

John was recounting actual events and conversations he and others have had with leadership. Now I don't always agree with how John words things sometimes, but there's not much soft-spoken speaking the truth in love when you are at an impasse with a leader either. In a SGM church I know, a normally soft-spoken humble pastor was YELLing at another also soft-spoken man who disagreed with him on something that isn't even pivotal to the Gospel (and the pastors were making this such an issue that the family would have to stop or leave the church), the member had to actually hang up the phone because the pastor wouldn't stop. WHERE is this coming from?
We have to laugh about it, or else we would be crying all the time for how such good men in leadership have been changed by the upper managment in SGM. You haven't experienced it! I didn't even know this pastor KNEW how to yell, that's how much he has been changed
YOUR friends and family haven't been hurt by leadership.

You came on the board yesterday and blasted away on another thread because you didn't understand the posts that you were responding to. Do you think just maybe that you haven't a CLUE what you are talking about now?? If you want to UNDERSTAND, which is your reason for being on the board, maybe you should LISTEN first. It seems like you are all ready to come in here and fire away when you think those of us who are no longer in SGM do something wrong, but right away you are ready to give grace and mercy and believe the best about SGM leadership.

"Grow up"? Give me a break - take your own sanctimonious advice.



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