Kerrin’s Story, part i
June 16, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Well, I certainly wouldn’t have ever thought my life would end up in these circumstances, but here I am. My story of spending most of my life in Covenant Life Church (CLC) and Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) could be quite long and take awhile to retell in total. For the sake of brevity and current, relevant circumstances I will stick primarily to the past couple of years and my most recent journey away from CLC/SGM.
My story at the mothership (CLC) begins twenty years ago. Yes, that’s right. I found my way out, with my sanity intact (knock on wood), after twenty years. Though, I was seeing a therapist to help with some residual effects of being there for so long and leaving. But before I begin, I want to be upfront with you because you should know where my current mindset is before you read any further: I am now convinced that Sovereign Grace Ministries is at best cult-like, and according to some academic standards would be classified a bona fide destructive cult. Now when I use that term—cult—I don’t use it pejoratively, I use it descriptively (a way of describing something; pointing to certain characteristics that are evident upon examination). Though I do prefer the phrase “destructive, high-demand group” to “destructive cultic group,” but for now I’m just going to stick with cultic. So if you are uncomfortable with that point of view or conclusion you may not want to read further.
A simple list of criteria or characteristics of a cultic group may be helpful at this point. Before I give this simple list I want to state plainly and clearly that Orthodox beliefs are completely separate from the characteristics of destructive cultic groups. So let me say it this way: CLC/SGM holds to mostly Orthodox beliefs, but it is their structure, methodologies, and practices that primarily identify them as a cultic group. There are other more complicated lists and nuances, but this list will work for the purpose of my story. I’m sure some who are still part of SGM will dismiss this list by saying something like, “Yeah, but that’s what a true church really is!” To which I would plead with that reader to simply consider opening your mind to another way of looking at things and consider the body of Christ is larger than you may possibly be aware.
The following is great criteria for examining whether or not Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) is a cult or cultic group:
1. Authoritarian pyramid structure with authority at the top
2. Charismatic or messianic leader(s) (Messianic meaning they either say they are God OR that they alone can interpret the scriptures the way God intended…..the leaders are self-appointed.)
3. Deception in recruitment and/or fund raising
4. Isolation from society — not necessarily physical isolation like on some compound in Waco, but this can be psychological isolation — the rest of the world is not saved, not Christian, not transformed (whatever) — the only valid source of feedback and information is the group
5. Use of mind control techniques (we use Dr. Robert Jay Lifton’s criteria from chapter 22 of his book Thought Reform & the Psychology of Totalism to compare whether the eight psychological and social methods he lists are present in the group at question):
5A. Milieu Control: Control of the environment and communication within the environment.
5B. Mystical Manipulation: Seeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that it appears to have arisen spontaneously from within the environment, while it actually has been orchestrated totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out the mystical imperative the “principles” (God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation.
5C. Demand for Purity: The world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group) one must continually change or conform to the group “norm”; tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for the group’s controlling and manipulative influences.
5D. Confession: Cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself sessions in which one confesses to one’s sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change.
5E. Sacred Science: The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic doctrine or ideology, holding it as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence questioning or criticizing those basic assumptions is prohibited a reverence is demanded for the ideology/doctrine, the originators of the ideology/doctrine, the present bearers of the ideology/doctrine offers considerable security to young people because it greatly simplifies the world and answers a contemporary need to combine a sacred set of dogmatic principles with a claim to a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology.
5F. Loading the Language: Words are given new meanings — the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way — it becomes a “group” word or phrase.
5G. Doctrine Over Person: If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question — it is always “turned around” on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly the underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one’s experience to that “truth” the experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt one is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one’s own evil when doubt arises, conflicts become intense.
5H. Dispensing of Existence: Since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist; impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed one outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group; fear manipulation — if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their salvation/transformation, or something bad will happen to them; the group is the “elite”, outsiders are “of the world”, “evil”, “unenlightened”, etc.
I ask any current CLC/SGM member to carefully examine this list and tell me these don’t exist in some way, shape, or form? You might be surprised to find out that many other churches in existence today don’t exhibit these characteristics.
Now, back to my story: my perspective is a bit of a unique one because when it comes to analyzing SGM, without being too specific and to put it somewhat crudely, I was “close to the top.” And by “the top” I refer to my relationships within the polity’s organizational structure (i.e., Authoritarian pyramid structure. Reference #1 in the list above), not that I almost attained such a status, although, I was a “caregroup leader” for eight years, went to the “pastor’s college,” played guitar regularly on stage Sunday mornings at CLC, was once asked if I would consider being a “pastor,” and up until I physically left the group in January of 2010 was slated to be an Elder on a recent church plant. Some of you may already know who I am based on my first name. This unique perspective, one of viewing the organization as cult-like, comes from not only the closeness of relationships to “the top,” but twenty years of experience there plus years of observation, study, and analysis. Looking back now I have to admit to myself that I was under the sway of groupthink for part of my twenty years there. I bought into, used, and participated in the methodology, black-and-white worldview, hero worship, guilt-projection, enjoyment of status, seeking status, coercive persuasion, thought reform, etc. Increasingly so, in the last seven years I was apart of the group, I wanted to figure out how to leave, how to stop leading a caregroup, etc. but there was simply no easy way to stop and move on.
You should also know that since I’ve left the “leaders” now say, “We’re questioning whether or not he ever was saved.” And for a while after I left my wife was attending a special “caregroup” for spouses of “unbelievers” at CLC (reference #4 above: “Isolation”). This is primarily based on what they think they know about me: I’m neither a Calvinist nor a conservative evangelical. They know I was questioning and disagreeing with their theology. They know I questioned and disagreed with their decisions, methodologies, and practices. And then I left (reference #5H above). The rest is based purely on their conjecture without direct knowledge. And of course, from their point of view, I left (and am currently) writing this because I’m angry, bitter, or even crazy. Well, I will say, there have been times when I’ve been angry, but who’s to say that is wrong? Is it not right to oppose tyranny or oppression with passion? Was Martin Luther wrong to, along with intellectual reasons, oppose “church authority” with passion? If any “leaders” from SGM are reading this: what is the difference between passionate opposition to tyranny and anger? As one in “authority,” is it not a more convenient way to dismiss dissent by labeling it as anger or bitterness than to listen and accept someone’s point of view as legitimate? And even if someone is angry could that not indicate wrongdoing or injustice on the part of the Institution and its use of power?
I don’t base these somewhat rhetorical questions on pure speculation. No, I’ve witnessed the character assassination of those who have left by the leadership and the rank-‘n’-file members at CLC. No one is perfect, sure. But anger about how one was treated wrongly is a natural, good thing. It helps us avoid the same mistreatment in the future; that is if we’re aware of the freedom to avoid such treatment. This is the problem with leaving SGM; most people are not aware they have the freedom, are afraid to do so, or don’t know how. One should ask oneself, “Why would I be scared to leave what on the surface seems like a legitimate church?” The first time I expressed my strong disagreement with things that went on and my desire to no longer go there I was “strongly encouraged” to talk with all the pastors about this because I was a “pillar in the church.” Most people in that circumstance will not be aware of their freedom to say, “No, I don’t need to speak with them.” During this time, Eric Simmons even said to me, “You should go to church where your wife wants to go”—these guys can’t stay on message it’s all about control.
When I first expressed a disagreement with a decision the leadership made one leader practically yelled at me: “But they’re your spiritual leaders!” As if just because they are self-appointed “spiritual leaders” (reference #2 above: “Charismatic or messianic leaders”) I shouldn’t disagree with them or think a decision they made was wrong/bad/etc. What’s interesting is that this decision I disagreed with wasn’t even a “spiritual” decision, as the word “spiritual” is typically used (reference #5F in mind control: “Loading the Language”), it was a business or Institutional reputation decision; to use SGM’s language it was a “gospel strategy” decision. (By the way, if you check out that link I was the source of that email exchange among the SGM leadership. Bob Kauflin forwarded it to me when I was still a trusted insider. It was also the topic Isaac Hydoski refers to in this comment about his standard pastoral practice i.e., betrayal of friendship. Do you know what happens to your private conversations with your CLC/SGM pastor, ”friend”? This is common practice in their ranks.). The decision I’m referring to was about a church plant. It became clear to me that these men were primarily concerned with the Institution’s reputation first and foremost: the propagation of their version of “the gospel” depended on their public image and they were afraid of that being damaged.
My journey away from SGM has been a long one. And it didn’t begin with anger or some offense (although, this is typically how the “leaders” will dismiss someone like me who leaves for intellectual and experiential reasons). Sure there was anger and offense along the way. In response to emotional manipulation and coercive persuasion is anger not a natural response? Even a sympathetic response when we witness another human subjected to the manipulation and coercion of another? Were you not angered to learn of John Allen Muhammad’s coercion and manipulation of Lee Boyd Malvo in the Washington, DC sniper attacks? (That is an illustrative question, not meant to be a direct comparison to the coercive persuasion at SGM). Michael D. Langone, Ph.D., an expert in psychological abuse, wrote the following, “Moral outrage fortifies good against formidable evil.” Now it is just my opinion about SGM, but it is an informed opinion, an opinion formed by experience, facts, and intellectual analysis. And I am morally outraged at the evil that is perpetrated within the Institution of Sovereign Grace Ministries. I am morally outraged at what I was subjected to for the formidable years of my youth and early adulthood. I am morally outraged at what they do to other human beings.
As my growing unease with things that went on at CLC, and the way people were treated there, I began to think about how to leave (about 7 years ago). The real trouble was that I have a family and my family is connected “to the top” (i.e., I married a daughter of a long-time leader within SGM). So while thinking about how to leave, one of the things I concluded might be an easy out would be to go on a “church plant.” That would at least get me away from CLC and provide a different environment for my children to grow up in; perhaps I’d have more autonomy, etc. So about seven years ago I began asking a pastor/friend, Eric Simmons, who displayed slightly different views on polity than other pastors, if he would plant a church. In 2008 he began seriously considering it. There were, of course, other people who were asking him about planting a church over the years (i.e., I wasn’t the only one). Then the process began, he decided he wanted to plant a new SGM church.
(I will possibly share more about this portion of the story in detail another time. That is if SGM doesn’t comply with my demands at the end of this post. For now, let’s just say I disagreed with what happened after this SGM church plant was announced. I then started to vocalize not only my disagreement with this decision, the polity, but also my theological disagreements and questions. And ultimately how I was treated confirmed my suspicions that CLC/SGM is a cultic group.)
Bob and Eric could not answer many of my theological/philosophical questions; I don’t think they knew what hit them because I kept so much quiet for so long. I even emailed Dr. Bruce Ware some theological/philosophical questions to show Bob and Eric that I’m not dumb and have in fact thought more deeply about certain issues than they had. Because they couldn’t answer my theological/philosophical questions they wanted me to go talk with Mark Dever. I refused this on the grounds that anyone else would not be afforded that privilege and I would not do that just because of whom I married. In addition, having witnessed Mark’s aggressive nature from the pulpit and once in person, I wasn’t willing to subject myself to that at the time. They assured me he wouldn’t be that way, but I said, “I’m still not interested.” After all, I was just a layman who disagreed with “Reformed Theology.” As an adult I felt I should be able to choose what perspective—philosophically or theologically—I agreed with the most without speaking to all the “experts” or “big dogs.” Even though, I’m fairly well read, pretty good at debating, and could probably hold my own against these “big dogs,” it was the principle of the things that was off-putting and at that time I was still repressed in speaking my own opinion.
They weren’t letting me go. At one point I said in a meeting, “I feel trapped” and “this is a classic sign of a cultic-group: easy in, difficult to get out!” I was told by Bob at one point when I was relaying how I disagreed with John Calvin, that I was “proud” for doing so (reference #5G in mind control: “Doctrine over Person”). Ironically, I found out later Bob had never even read The Institutions. I on the other had had read and analyzed Calvin’s arguments. My reading outside the “approved list” of books was demeaned, as was my intelligence during this process. The excuse I heard about this from my father-in-law was, “I expressed that I thought there were better things you could read for your faith.”—as if only the books/authors who agree with SGM’s version of “Reformed Theology” are beneficial to faith (reference #5E in mind control: “Sacred Science”).
When questioning the influence of the Shepherding Movement on SGM and expressing my dislike of this influence back in March 2010, Eric Simmons denied there was a connection. In response, I produced a quote from Alister McGrath, a reputable theologian who is noted for his work in historical theology and holds two PhDs. The quote spoke of the historical connection between CLC and the Shepherding Movement. Eric responded with the following lies:
“The way that I have heard CJ talk in the past about [the founders of the Shepherding Movement] is that he is grateful for their friendship but would really disagree with how they think about “apostolic” ministry.  Brent would have agreed with those guys and thus the reason why CJ asked him to not be on the Board.  Not that you want to know that stuff.”
When confronted on these lies Eric only said he was speculating. Here are the lies: 1) that only Brent agreed with those guys (they all supposedly had concerns but it was primarily CJ and Larry that embraced the teachings); 2) that CJ asked Brent to resign from the Board (Brent did so of his own accord); 3) that Brent’s resignation from the Board had anything to do with theological differences on “apostolic” ministry. As is plainly evident to most people, Eric’s statement is devoid of speculative language (e.g., “It seems like…” or “I may be wrong…” or “As I recall…”). It is clear he is trying to tell me something I supposedly don’t know when he says, “Not that you want to know that stuff.” So then the question is why would he want to deceive me in this way? Among other questions I posed to him I stressed this as the important one. I have yet to receive a response despite being told he would response ASAP. I can produce the email exchanges for anyone who is interested.
Tell me why anyone would want to follow “leaders” who lie, deceive, betray confidence, etc. and then cannot own up to it? They cannot be honest. Why follow anyone who lacks integrity? Everyone lies every now and again, but wouldn’t you expect men of integrity to admit when caught deceiving?
(to be continued…)
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Ok now on to Kerrin’s compelling story based upon his actual experience as a member of SGM. (Btw Kerrin, I was at the wedding as a guest of your family ;-)
Wow! Thank you for sharing and we’re on the edge of our seats.
One thing I’ve noticed in the last three months, is that CLC pastors and my care group leader would only engage in email conversations up to a point, and then would stop actually communicating and instead revert to platitudes. It seems to me that there are two related issues: 1) once a decision is made by leadership, all must submit, and submission is public agreement, and so pastors might fear expressing their own theological views in a conversation because they might not agree 100% with leadership, and 2) pastors and care group leaders seem to fear the audit trail that email provides because they could lose control of their own words.
Kerrin’s story seems to show that they have been burned by email, but then the question is: If members are required to bare their souls, their every secret, and their weekly progress on their most besetting sins in order to mortify their sins, why then are pastors so comfortable to try to keep so much of operation of the church secret?
user deleted–
Are you trying to insult Kris? That’s the way I read what you’re saying. Why are you trying to insult her? Would you be willing to share why you don’t think she has a legitimate standing to discuss these issues?
Kerrin – A compelling story. I’m looking forward to the rest. You provide much to think about.
Unassimilated — I’ve been fine. Do you think you know me, or are you just being friendly? :wink:
You make reasonable points in #238 in the previous blog discussion. I’m not sure whether I’d agree completely or not (I guess it would depend on the details of some of your generalities). However, if SGM isn’t fair and balanced, I’d like to rise above that and be what they aren’t. It may be a tall order, but I would want to try to avoid making their mistakes.
From one of your examples, I don’t think that the meeting at Josh’s house was meant to be a fair and balanced venue for resolving SGM transgressions (and so I don’t think we should be surprised that it failed to accomplish that lofty goal). I have no special knowledge, but it seems that it was meant to be what it appears to have been — a venue for CLC pastors to begin to show that they have heard the grumblings and that they are finally interested enough to sit and listen. More than that, they actually took some action. Not enough action, even for just CLC. But it was a start. And I’m hopeful enough that CLC was a pilot, and that this process will begin to spread to other SGM churches in the coming year. Ultimately, it could spread to the top of SGM. That could be a pipedream, but it has to start somewhere.
And after all, its not like SGM is the first church group to ignore the will of the people or to fail to address doctrinal deficiency. Just look at the Catholic Church. How long has it been since the Reformation? And it still refuses to listen to reason. What was the people’s response? They started other churches — ones that held to beliefs that they saw in the Bible. And the same failure to address problems or differences of opinion has happened with every Protestant church as well. That’s why we have so many denominations.
But I get what you’re saying. I’m not blind to it.
.
username deleted,
Seems like you’re shooting the messenger. We need this blog…ALL survivors need this blog. Whether or not we always agree with what the owner of it does, we still need it. You’ve been around here long enough to know that Kris and Guy didn’t start this blog because they had some great insight or even because they experienced crazy stuff. I’ve never found that Kris is trying to be something that she’s not.
Just sayin…
Sid
Oh…and Kerrin, thanks for posting your story! You did a great job getting it together! I am praying for all who read it.
Keep hangin’ in there. You’re doing great on your healing journey! Mr Sid and I are amazed by the changes in you from when we last saw you in January till talking to you just yesterday. YAY for getting out from under their grip.
Sid
Thank you Kerrin. I know your motivation is to inform and warn us readers, both those in and out of SGM. But my prayer for you is that you won’t have to tell the whole story because you will get what you really desire….seeing your precious children. Still praying for that and your employment with a good company.
I hate to so quickly take the focus off of Kerrin’s story…so consider this one of those, “We interrupt this program to bring you the following message” messages…
I’m going to ask Guy to put this up as a permanent tab at the top, probably to supplement or replace the “Read This Before You Post” piece. When he gets around to it, it will be up there for all to see. I hope what I’m about to say will clarify some things. Perhaps we’ll call this our “Terms Of Use” or something like that. We’ll see.
Anyway, just for the record, while we established this site to be a forum for free discussion, there are nonetheless some guidelines that we ask our commenters to follow, some points to keep in mind.
The first of these is that this site has owners/moderators. If you as a commenter have some special hobby horse of a topic that you wish to discuss – be it a belief in Universalism, or a deep desire to promote egalitarianism, or a drive to compel everyone to approve of and celebrate your post-SGM lifestyle – you are not simply free to take the discussion in any direction you choose. If your particular hobby horse happens to conflict with the personal convictions of the site’s owners/moderators, you may be asked to refrain from discussing the topic further. If you continue to submit comments about your topic, your comments will not be published.
Secondly, if you do not like something that a moderator/owner has said, you are, of course, free to submit a comment that expresses your disagreement. Throughout this site’s history, virtually all such comments have been published. However, persistent dissension occurs here at the discretion of the owners/moderators. If the owners/moderators feel that the dissension is taking attention away from the topic at hand, or if the owners/moderators are simply tired of arguing a particular point, further comments on the topic may be deleted. Also, while we have been happy to help commenters get in touch with each other via the email addresses people leave when they comment, we do not promise that we will always provide space within the comments for you to publish your personal contact information.
Please understand, Guy and I thoroughly see the irony in the concept of asserting our “authority” as owners/moderators over people, even as the point of this site is the discussion of a ministry that we believe to be authoritarian and controlling. However, please also understand that this site is not a “church.” It is not a place that is supported by members’ tithes and offerings. Guy and I pay the hosting fees, and we are responsible for the content here. On the rare occasions when we have to throw our moderator weight around, also understand that unlike a church, we are not assuming that we have any “spiritual” authority over you. We are not asking you to submit to or obey us. We’re not even asking you to agree with us. We are simply asking you to be polite guests and abide by the guidelines set forth by your host and hostess.
You are, of course, perfectly free to take your comments elsewhere. You’re also free to put up your own site to discuss your favorite hobby horses as you wish. We will not practice “loving pursuit” of you. We will not contact any site where you go to post comments in the future. :D
Anyway, when you post a comment, you do so with the knowledge that this is a site owned and hosted by a couple of individuals. It is not a free-for-all.
Kerrin,
Thank you for posting your story. I particularly appreciate your challenge to people to examine the recognized characteristics of “cultic” organizations and see how closely their SGM experiences demonstrate those characteristics.
At this time, I would request that we attempt to discuss what Kerrin has shared.
Thanks! :D
“Tell me why anyone would want to follow “leaders” who lie, deceive, betray confidence, etc. and then cannot own up to it? They cannot be honest. Why follow anyone who lacks integrity?”
Kerrin, exactly! This describes the sr pastor, staff, leadership team at my xSGc and overseer/apostle who bungled over them. This is what put the “former” in FSGP.
Their selective use of email and betraying confidences seems to be a characteristic of SG. I was told by leadership how they studied and had meetings on my emails! Of course, they never once asked me any questions on what I wrote … Oddly, the only question I recall that the sr pastor and apostle asked me in my last 6 months in confinement was when I resigned from membership. Then they asked if I would continue to attend church!
I have been reflecting lately on how much better my life has been since I left SG. It is sooooo much better. There is more joy. There is more happiness. There is less regret and guilt. The years since I left have been the most exciting and enjoyable of my life (> 50 years). Kerrin, my hope and prayer is that one day this will be true for you, too.
Freedom!
Former SG Pastor
Hey Errbody… (haha) Anyways, I haven’t posted in awhile because I’ve been busy reeeading all of your comments here and over at Dee’s site, http://www.thewartburgwatch.com. Sometimes I should post my comments, but I always back away. Not really sure why. I guess maybe because I didn’t go to CLC or a SGM church but for 2 weeks and left–but I was a member at Capitol Hill Baptist and left, honestly, for many of the reasons many of you left, all except for the abuse of children. I don’t believe anything like that has ever happened there. But as far as the authoritarian, paternalism, issues with women, singles, courtship, and more… well I’ve seen it all.
What bothers me is how all of these things could possibly be going on within SG (and I honestly believe they are) then how can men like Piper, Mohler, and Dever and so forth ignore these things and possibly not even consider if they could be true. As a lay person, even if I come in a skeptic, I’m still going to research and listen intently to what the other guy has to say, even if I believe he’s wrong. There may be the chance I’m still open to be convinced or even consider his views.
Someone told me a few weeks ago that CJ preached at CHBC earlier this year. He’s preached there before. Yes, the bookstall is laden, not heavily, with books by Mahaney and Harris. Even though I know that Mark and I would disagree on many things, especially on church government, discipline, etc… I never thought I would come to not respect him because of the company he keeps. And yet, I stand amazed that he would keep company with such an organization that CLEARLY has problems.
But they say ducks of a feather, and that apples don’t fall far from the trees which they share roots. I can’t say that CHBC was AS controllling at SGM, but they sure share a lot of similarities. I could write days and days about all that I have witnessed in my tenure there. What’s discouraging is that yes, there were many cult like behaviors that are on the list Kerrin mentioned and some other cult watch sites that I’ve been reading as well.
I don’t think the problems there are as volatile as they are at SGM and not as prevalent, but they still exist and people are having issues with them. When I began to see things for what they were, I dipped (left). I knew better than to try and fight a system that was heavy handed, especially with men who don’t generally include women in any real decisions they make, i.e. elders meetings, etc… Men who also don’t believe women have any “authority” in the church.
I would say that many of the behaviors that you find in your typical SGM church, you would also find at CHBC and probably other IFB churches. Particularly, it seems these characteristics are common in Reformed/Calvanist Doctrine/ Fundamentalist churches. I’m not sure why. Anyways, I’ll probably comment more later, not that there is anything important to add. But I have received much healing and affirmation from reading stories here and also considering the discernment and wisdom offered here, that I’ve been able to stand firm in my decision to leave. I’ve also found the strength to not let others overpower me, cross healthy boundaries, or feel like they can speak whatever they want in my life in the name of the Gospel. So much that as others I know who have left, they were convinced that they were the problem or their views weren’t specifically correct, and then returned.
I”m thankful and glad for each and every one of you here. I have often said to myself, if it weren’t for my “friends” on the blog, I’d be lost and there would be no one who could understand this unbelievable experience I’ve had the past few years. It’s unreal.
I’m so glad we have a loving Father and a gracious and precious Saviour. What would we do without the love and truth that Christ brings? And the comfort and affirmation from a tender Dad in the Father? Surely I’d have quit living. It would have all been to heavy to bear. Thank God for Jesus because at the end of the day, my heart is glad to know that Christ really TRULY loves me and sees my heart, and approves and affirms me. That the Father calls me his own. I dont need these other people to confirm or affirm my walk with the Lord. I only need the affirmation of the One I’m walking with! Thank the Lord that he can strengthen a weak heart and prove himself trustworthy and reliable. I”m so glad for this. And I’m glad for all of your comments and situations that you’ve shared openly. It has been a saving grace for me.
Kerrin, thank you for sharing your story. I’d like to talk to you offline about some things. You shared your number before but I dont think I wrote it down. Would you mind sharing again? Also, what’s a great time to call?
Your Friend,
NLR
“No longer drankin’ that kool-aid. Favorite flavor: red”
Hey Eric.
Just a combo of being friendly, and care for a fellow Christian. Its good to
remind ourselves that there are people behind the postings, so a bit of that too.
“And after all, its not like SGM is the first church group to ignore the will of the people or to fail to address doctrinal deficiency.”
I could not agree with this statement more. In many ways Churches, as a collection of “sinners” are bound to make mistakes and errors, have deficiencies, and just plain
misrepresent at times. What ever folly one may assign to CJ and SGM, scripture would say that it is what is common to man.
If you were to look back on my postings over the years, this acknowledgment would not be always apparent, or to use another term, my comments can come across graceless. Sometime I get on a rant, and have to repent where my attitudes and heart were in the wrong place. I do make every effort to rise above, but will perhaps, continue to fail with that at times irregardless of how many direct quotes, theology, scripture quotes, or internal/ business documents I bring fourth.
Sidenote –
I’m here as I believe my family, and myself, would have been spared a lot of destruction in our lives had this site existed years ago. I do not always enjoy posting here, it reminds me of, and causes me to relive a lot of painful experiences, as well as the loss of many friends both relationally and some literally. Then with every new story posting, their is new pain, grief, and sadness. I have also stepped away from posting at times.
I encountered similar things to what Kerrin has gone through, not to mention all the parallels to many of the posters here, was not as prominent in the org I must say, and still have many friends and family in the SGM world. It is my hope that SGM would learn and grow, and break from what I see as recurring patterns of mistakes. In the interim, whether it is good, bad, or ugly, I am greatfull that there are forums where these things can be discussed.
For all my postings and rantings, my concerns can be condensed as;
Life in an SGM church typically calls for a level of personal and spiritual intimacy that most do not. It’s the “Family” vibe, one that seems to lack reciprocation when the concerns start pointing to the top. The culture of consistent relationship and confession can leave the SGM member in an almost unnaturally vulnerable place. (depends on the member and the term/level of involvement) As a result, SGM mistakes can have a much more damaging and grave effect. Again, not the only ones, but that fact should not absolve any Church from their responsibility to God. This and I am not convinced that the SGM higher ups are being as honest or transparent as the level of relationship they require would call for.
– End sidenote –
I too was disappointed with the lack of depth Josh’s Q&A, and subsequent apology had. Yet I was encouraged that it took place. I am encouraged that you are not blind to these things, and also encouraged that your experience has you at a place of care, concern, and continued participation. Proximity is the catalyst to much in this world.
The best thing, in my opinion, that could happen with SGM is a greater transparancy,
and accountability to the people they seek to serve. This alondgside further growth in preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I believe the worst thing, and I would imagine some would disagree with me on this, would be for the whole organization to come crashing down in a hailstorm of accusations.
Where opinion and perspective may be helpful in understanding, it is only truth, and that would be the truth of God’s word, that can bring meaningful and significant change.
Glad your here.
Am I to understand that Kerrin is being kept from seeing his children? Just because he left SGM and is not a believer in calvinism?
Former SGM Dude,
As far as I can tell, yes – Kerrin has been (was?) prevented from being in touch with his children. He was told (if I’m remembering this correctly) that his kids did not want to talk with him…and yet when he was able to get in touch with them through his mother (the children’s grandmother), they were thrilled to speak with their dad.
While of course we are outsiders and cannot know the dynamics of Kerrin’s and his wife’s relationship, it seems logical to assume that if Kerrin’s in-laws are spreading the word that he is a crazy unbeliever, and giving that as the reasoning behind their daughter’s “biblical” divorce, then that is also likely why Kerrin has found it so difficult to communicate with his children.
So yes. I think we can say that Kerrin’s departure from SGM is causing him to lose contact with his kids.
Until about three weeks ago, I had not read anything on this site in several months (I had checked things out last summer and then put it all aside). But I’ve been thinking about areas of church and wanted to check things out here again.
But finding Kerrin posting here a few weeks ago was a shock to me. And now his whole story is coming out. Its hard to believe some of what you’re saying, Kerrin, but I’m listening. Keep talking, and give us honesty – like what you wanted from the CLC pastors.
More generally, I’ll admit that there are some things posted on this site that I’m not so concerned about. But, I am very concerned about some of the SGM actions I’ve seen described here by people who have been hurt by them.
I’ll also confess that I’m also concerned that these descriptions are one-sided, but then again, its their side. I’m not blaming anyone, but I do think that, sometimes, people’s hurts and their passions and even their bias make them write things that may not be fair descriptions, even about their hurts, and such things don’t help. I can’t change that, but as I read things, I have to accept that some hurtful perceptions can be clouded or even wrong, just like SGM is wrong in the ways in which they’ve hurt people.
However, bottom line, is that I’ve decided that if even only 10% of what is said here is true, then there are things that I must think seriously about. That’s where I’m at and that’s why I’m reading. And no one from SGM is adding their side of the argument, so I’m taking what I can get.
Former SGM Dude,
It sounds like they are preventing him from talking with them on the phone. He cannot see them because he moved to Europe.
Jester
To be fair, according to everything we’ve heard, Kerrin wanted his wife and children to move with him to Scotland.
NLR –
Thanks for the comment. Welcome (again)! (I remember your postings as Nony.)
Eric,
I can understand your hesitations about this site, and also your concerns about SGM. You are wise to ask questions and pursue answers.
Something to keep in mind is that some of the things that might seem unimportant are actually signs of larger issues. Just about everything seemingly “trivial” here still relates to one of two issues: polity, or false ideas about the importance of the SGM organization and a desire to protect that organization. (This was called “gospel strategy” in the email Kerrin mentions in his story.)
In the spirit of accuracy, as unpopular as it may be, it was Fla-vor-aide that Jim Jones gave to his believers. Similar, but different than Kool-Aid.
:| I still understand the reference.
Thought it might be a good example of how wrong ideas become popular “truths” when repeated often enough.
Thanks, Kris — you may be right. I can see some relationships like that. I’m looking to see if I can reasonably connect the dots for myself.
Unassimilated — :D
Kerrin,
Can’t tell you how much I relate to your sense of outrage at these leaders and let’s face it those who protect them. No person who actually cares about the worth and dignity of other humans would or could stand with this institution/business.
“And I am morally outraged at the evil that is perpetrated within the Institution of Sovereign Grace Ministries. I am morally outraged at what I was subjected to for the formidable years of my youth and early adulthood. I am morally outraged at what they do to other human beings.” :word
Kerrin, Thanks for posting your story. I know that must have been difficult and the prolonged separation from your children only makes it worse. I’m praying that your marriage will be restored and your heart healed. I don’t see how that could happen in the natural but I know God can restore and heal. Please know that you are in my prayers.
username deleted, Thank you for your kind words and support. We have a sign coming for you, if you’re a position to join us. :D My picket site will be live soon, I have just been swamped with work and thus a bit delayed. You are correct in saying that the Constitution protects our picket and even this site. The United States Supreme Court recently ruled that content posted on the net doesn’t create liability for the site owners or operators, even if it is libelous. Only the poster could be sued for libelous postings. As long as no one trespasses on the private property of the church, or uses voice amplification equipment we are legal as can be THANKS TO THE FRAMERS.
That being said I can understand why Kris doesn’t want to be blamed for some crazy guy organizing a picket of Sovereign Grace churches. I can hear the sovereign Gracers now, ” Kris put those smiley face icons carrying signs on the blog to subliminally program the crazy guy to picket our church”.
You and I know that makes zero sense but I can hear them saying it.
Imagine what the smiley beating the ass was meant to convey….
Pickets do make the target climb the walls, they almost always start out by calling the cops and we then get to teach basic Constitutional Law to a few Fairfax County cops, big deal. Then they will send a staff member out with scare tactics. I don’t think the pastors at Fairfax will have the guts to walk up to us but I may be wrong, regardless it doesn’t matter the picket will continue. We plan on hitting Fairfax 6-8 times before the end of the year and Gaithersburg at least 2-3 times.
I don’t share the concerns about disturbing the members on their way into a worship service. Maybe it will make a few people think.Maybe it will discourage a few visitors from attending. Maybe the boneheads running that place will stop and think, ” we better shape up, the community is hearing a BAD REPORT.”
Disclaimer: Those smiley guys really do look like picketers.
Seeking the City to Come,
Sorry it took me soooo long to answer. Actually I guess it wasn’t that long but a lot sure has happened at this site in just a few hours and I just read everything.
But here is one reference for my posting about John Calvin’s doctrine on possible death? being the only reason for a woman to leave an abusive marriage. He uses the term ‘imminent peril’. CJ says the gospel will be in ‘peril’ if we neglect CBMW. Just using the word ‘biblical’ before every one of their interpretations is a brainwashing tactic. Sidenote: Piper says a wife should endure a ‘smack’ for a night and call the leaders in the morning. Just google that one and add the word youtube. But there is so much more online these days about John Calvin than ever before since people who have revered his teachings as taught by their mentors went innocently looking for more to back up their own sermons and have found what they did not want to find. I looked this stuff up many moons ago since I was raised in Calvinism from birth at church, attended an IFB school 2-12th grade, am now Assembly of God and stumbled on this site after fear of my daughter being seduced by SGM. The fear is not over.
Here is the John Calvin reference:
We have a special sympathy for poor women who are evilly and roughly treated by their husbands, because of the roughness and cruelty of the tyranny and captivity which is their lot. We do not find ourselves permitted by the Word of God, however, to advise a woman to leave her husband, except by force of necessity; and we do not understand this force to be operative when a husband behaves roughly and uses threats to his wife, nor even when he beats her, but when there is imminent peril to her life . . . [W]e . . . exhort her to bear with patience the cross which God has seen fit to place upon her; and meanwhile not to deviate from the duty which she has before God to please her husband, but to be faithful whatever happens [“Letter From Calvin to an Unknown Woman,” June 4, 1559, Calvini Opera, XVII, col. 539, in P. E. Hughes, editor, The Register of the Company of Pastors of Geneva in the Time of Calvin (Eerdmans, 1966) , pp. 344-345].
p.s. if there is any at all inflection of hostility in my post.. please believe it is not against anyone here who doesn’t believe like I do but it is just very hard for me to read John Calvin and not get angry.
Eric, in post #17 you state “I’ll also confess that I’m also concerned that these descriptions are one-sided, but then again, its their side. I’m not blaming anyone, but I do think that, sometimes, people’s hurts and their passions and even their bias make them write things that may not be fair descriptions, even about their hurts, and such things don’t help. I can’t change that, but as I read things, I have to accept that some hurtful perceptions can be clouded or even wrong, just like SGM is wrong in the ways in which they’ve hurt people.”
I find that one of the most unhelpful things to tell people who have gravely suffered at the hands of others is that they may be stretching the truth or have a misperception of how they were hurt. It is true that people can be hurt by others actions that were right actions, but the person didn’t like it. I would just say to you that before you come in, continue to take deeper looks into the patterns of hurts and complaints here while taking note that it is utterly impossible that this many people, (and not just on this site, mind you) have these same exact issues of spiritual abuse in other types of churches and cults as well.
Don’t you think that people here have heard that a million times–that maybe it’s just them and how they see things? See, it really does no good to that person who has opened their heart to tell about something that sometimes most often shames them and brings great pain. By the time a person has gotten the courage even to share such a painful and difficult-to-understand time in their spiritual walk, theybe heard what you’re saying time and time again to the point of discouragement.
I don’t believe you mean any harm by your statement but I must admit to readily challenge people on their experiences which you do not share and with those whom you do not know personally just isn’t cool.
I’ve learned recently through my own experience that two people van be part of the same congregation and depending in the level of involvement, interactions, beliefs and encounters, those two people can have a markedly different experience where one is privy to all sorts of issues and the other in total innocence about what is happening.
The issues talked about here often can’t be seen on the surface and require deep involvement or at least the ability to not ignore ones own discernment and see things for what they are. It is not the right of another to discredit a person of their viewpoint just because we don’t share it.
My sister, upon inquiring about my father, would have much better things to say about him than I would because he never abused her like he did me–and he abused me terribly. Same guy but we both experienced him differently. It never helped my acknowledge that I was abuse and come to accept that fact when people like you wijkdnt come along and see the situation from the outside and try to make judgments that maybe it wasn’t as bad as I thought. Part of the issue with being abused by someone whether physically or spiritually is that they do become a threat to you in that most of what they do, even the smallest things, harm you. And it’s not the duty of the abused to try and claim what’s so good about the abuser. It’s not even fair to ask a hurting violated person to do so.
I think people need to focus a lot less on the fact that the abused are angry or hurt or may have a perspective that paints a person negatively when, in fact, they have behaved deplorably and rather focus their energies on the outrage one should feel knowing that people and especially children have been grieveiously scarred not just bodily but spiritually as well. I often said I’d rather be beat up than to be spiritually a d emotionally wrecked. The physical scars heal a lot faster but the emotional ones and spiritual ones can take an all powerful and loving God the duration of a persons lifetime to heal them.
People just dont make this s**t up, sweetheart. They just dont.
Eric, in post #17 you state “I’ll also confess that I’m also concerned that these descriptions are one-sided, but then again, its their side. I’m not blaming anyone, but I do think that, sometimes, people’s hurts and their passions and even their bias make them write things that may not be fair descriptions, even about their hurts, and such things don’t help. I can’t change that, but as I read things, I have to accept that some hurtful perceptions can be clouded or even wrong, just like SGM is wrong in the ways in which they’ve hurt people.”
I find that one of the most unhelpful things to tell people who have gravely suffered at the hands of others is that they may be stretching the truth or have a misperception of how they were hurt. It is true that people can be hurt by others actions that were right actions, but the person didn’t like it. I would just say to you that before you come in, continue to take deeper looks into the patterns of hurts and complaints here while taking note that it is utterly impossible that this many people, (and not just on this site, mind you) have these same exact issues of spiritual abuse in other types of churches and cults as well.
Don’t you think that people here have heard that a million times–that maybe it’s just them and how they see things? See, it really does no good to that person who has opened their heart to tell about something that sometimes most often shames them and brings great pain. By the time a person has gotten the courage even to share such a painful and difficult-to-understand time in their spiritual walk, theybe heard what you’re saying time and time again to the point of discouragement.
I don’t believe you mean any harm by your statement but I must admit to readily challenge people on their experiences which you do not share and with those whom you do not know personally just isn’t cool.
I’ve learned recently through my own experience that two people van be part of the same congregation and depending in the level of involvement, interactions, beliefs and encounters, those two people can have a markedly different experience where one is privy to all sorts of issues and the other in total innocence about what is happening.
The issues talked about here often can’t be seen on the surface and require deep involvement or at least the ability to not ignore ones own discernment and see things for what they are. It is not the right of another to discredit a person of their viewpoint just because we don’t share it.
My sister, upon inquiring about my father, would have much better things to say about him than I would because he never abused her like he did me–and he abused me terribly. Same guy but we both experienced him differently. It never helped my acknowledge that I was abuse and come to accept that fact when people like you wijkdnt come along and see the situation from the outside and try to make judgments that maybe it wasn’t as bad as I thought. Part of the issue with being abused by someone whether physically or spiritually is that they do become a threat to you in that most of what they do, even the smallest things, harm you. And it’s not the duty of the abused to try and claim what’s so good about the abuser. It’s not even fair to ask a hurting violated person to do so.
I think people need to focus a lot less on the fact that the abused are angry or hurt or may have a perspective that paints a person negatively when, in fact, they have behaved deplorably and rather focus their energies on the outrage one should feel knowing that people and especially children have been grieveiously scarred not just bodily but spiritually as well. I often said I’d rather be beat up than to be spiritually a d emotionally wrecked. The physical scars heal a lot faster but the emotional ones and spiritual ones can take an all powerful and loving God the duration of a persons lifetime to heal them.
Yes, I may have responded to my fathers abuse angrily, bitterly and demonized him but that was his fault, not mine. If I just punched you in the face and you punched me back and was freaking angry about the situation, how would it help you if people focused on how “wrong” you were for telling others that I was impulsive, angry and mean? There’s not always two wrongs in every situation. And maybe the fact that we are not to provoke others to wrath and anger is a look into Gods heart in that he understands that a person can be unfairly provoked to sin. He really is far more compassionate and understanding than those who claim to bear his name. It seems also that’s why he holds deeply accountable those who unfairly cause others to stumble and to sin because it’s not fair.
People just dont make this s**t up, sweetheart. They just dont.
@Eric,
Since you so keen on listening to me now, rather than keeping me in SGM, how about you listen to some questions and banter:
Is it really compelling? How so? Care to elaborate? What are you currently thinking about that I have said?
Platitudes.
@Eric,
Why is it such “a shock”? Because I don’t agree with SGM? Because of my experience? I have an email where you said you were sorry for what I experienced at SGM. Why then would it be a shock that I’m here posting? Is it not that I’m here posting, but rather the content of my posts that are shocking? If it’s the content then address that rather than throw out this generality of “shocked-ness”!
Its hard to believe some of what you’re saying, Kerrin, but I’m listening.
Why is it hard to believe?
Don’t help what exactly? Don’t help SGM’s image? Don’t help further SGM’s “gospel strategy” that seem to leave a wake of “hurt” in its path?
“May not be fair descriptions”… if your kid told you about how a bully at school pushed him to the ground and kicked him, would you question the “fair description” of his “hurt” (emotionally or physically)?
This is like Michael Ducacus vs Bush in the death penalty debate. Anybody with me on that one?
So why have they (SGM) never addressed the hurt? If they have hurt people, which you seem to acknowledge, then why support a group that refuses to publicly acknowledge wrongdoing? Don’t give me Josh’s non-apology apology as an answer… it contributes nothing to acknowledging wrongdoing it only dances around the topic and ends up placing the blame on the followers.
How can “hurtful perceptions” be wrong? If I perceive to be hurt by something I AM hurt, period. There is no “clouded” or “wrong” about a real perception of being hurt. For having an education in philosophy, I’d expect a better use of the understanding of “perception.” This sounds more like the SGM much beloved line “the heart is deceptive above all else” wrapped in the philosophically language of “perceptions.”
Want to debate this topic with me?
So start with 10%. That’s generous. Why are CLC/SGM pastors given much more than 10% believability? What makes their statements more believable than anyone here on this site? Do you give CJ the “if even only 10%” rule?
Any of those “legitimate” questions, Eric?
Longing…
Yup. “outrage at these leaders and let’s face it those who protect them. No person who actually cares about the worth and dignity of other humans would or could stand with this institution/business.”
Emotionally SGM bothers me the same way the JWs and Mormons and all sorts of groups bother me, which is to say not much. I pray for their eyes to be opened and for revival, but what really gets to me on a gut level is not so much SGM, but all the seeming enablers from a better? background- the Gospel Coalition guys, some CCEF guys, Peacemakers, Reformed preachers.
My husband thinks that the real problem is that it appears in the Reformed Community (which we are part of) that as long as certain basic doctrines are orthodox, none of the rest matters. If you are CCC-Calvinist, Complementarian, and Covenantal (non dispensational) then it doesn’t matter what your polity is, or methodology, or how your prayer life is, or what happens to abused kids.
If you have justification by faith straight, and TULIP tattooed on your forehead, and carry a big ESV bible, then you can be as harsh and authoritarian as you like, but you are still “one of us”. You can be vulgar Driscoll or legalistic Harris or abusive CJ and it does not matter, you have the three magic Cs that make you on a higher purer level.
My church thankfully is not like this at all, and we are CCC…but it is all over the place, unfortunately. What God will have to do to destroy it I do not know, but I believe He will.
Kerrin- thanks. You and your family are in my prayers. There is always hope.
Kerrin,
The shepherding link is there.
1- Larry T contributed to New Wine Magazine. Have a link I can not locate, yet all of New Wine is still available online.
2- Charles Simplson Spoke at Celebration 2001 and was a Guest here –
March 8-10 Covenant Fellowship Church
Dave Harvey
Glen Mills, PA 610-361-0606
Was this not for the most part, during CJ’s watch?
3 – CJ and Larry attended many of the shepherding conferences. This one the same year they founded CLC –
Shepherds conference in Kansas-
http://ern-baxter.blogspot.com/2007/08/advertising-kansas-city-conference.html
————————————————————————————————————
What is interesting is that while Simpson never retracted the teachings, he did acknowledge that there were many that “misapplied” the teachings to a level of abuse. From my research;
“However, as Simpson and Mumford note, there is great danger in “triumphalism”–seeing one’s movement as the “cutting edge” of what God is doing today. This mind-set, especially if coupled with success, tends to devalue those who don’t see it their way, or worse, to write off critics as old-fashioned defenders of “tradition,” unwilling to embrace God’s new move–the more mean-spirited and unfair the criticisms, the easier to dismiss.
These attitudes inhibit constructive dialogue and shut off any real outside accountability. Both Mumford and Simpson believe triumphalism was one reason the Shepherding movement missed the mark.”
————————————————————————————————————
So it was Brent, hmmmmmm.
Anyhow – Pampy posted her recollections of the earlier days a while back. Eric Simmons, you may want to inquire.
“The “constant change is here to stay” mantra was used as early as the early 1980s when CLC/PDI/SGM was referred to as “Gathering of Believers”. Even back then, “policies” that were seemingly cast in stone were changed at the whim of the elders. There was also a saying that said something to the effect that if you can’t abide by all the rules, get off the bus.
GOB (Gathering of Believers) was definitely a cult. I was eyeball deep in all of the dysfunction and saw everything from emotional abuse of wives by their husbands to abuse of children by their parents…the men definitely ruled the roost. The women/wives obediently followed the men’s lead. There was definitely “something” missing in the women who were dedicated to this lifestyle. It was like part of their personality..,part of what made them who they were…what made them uniquely “them”…was missing.
Everyone blindly followed, but I didn’t. Single young men and women were coached about who to marry. I had single men friends who told me that elders would “suggest” that they become interested in a particular young woman. I even knew one guy, who is now quite well-known in Christian circles and on TV a lot, who told me that he wasn’t even physically attracted to his new wife. He was following the elders’ recommendation that this particular woman would be good wife material if he were to consider being in the ministry.
BLECK…There really wasn’t even that whole “courting” thing back then…I think that surfaced from what I think was the Josh Harris influence. All we knew was dating was WRONG and that if we were interested in someone, we definitely had to keep it a secret or else be subjected to a huge investigation. I remember being interested in a young man at the time. I took him out to Georgetown to dinner for his birthday one time. We had to keep it very secretive. We would even be paranoid if we were walking down Randolph Road together and Larry T would drive by and see us. We knew we would be the target of a huge inquisition. As a young woman in her early 20s, even though I had only known the Lord for 6 years, I knew something wasn’t right.
It seemed that everyone blindly followed Larry T and C.J.’s edicts. Then a small faction arose (of which I was a part) that started questioning all this garbage. Charles Schmitt’s teaching caused a lot of us to snap out of the delusional thinking and face the reality of how off-base the whole GOB structure was. When I was about ready to make my exit from GOB, the whole Charles Schmitt disaster was occurring, and the leadership felt it necessary to meet individually with those people who were suspect. Of course I was one of the targeted people…I am so grateful that they thought I was a rebel. That showed me that I still had hope ! ha ha ha
Gary Riccucci (sp???) and Robin Boisvert were my interrogators. They came to my home one weekend afternoon and asked me all kinds of stupid questions and made several generalized accusations. I’ll never forget one key question. They asked me what I would do if one of the elders told me to do something…if one of the elders told me that they heard from the Lord that I was to do such-and-such. I answered that I would take it to the Lord in prayer and determine whether or not the Lord was speaking that to ME personally.”
@NLR I ache at the pain of your response to people like Eric and others who think that can equate the God given emotions a shattered persin goes through as something akin to a amazon review after receiving a bum deal has not the heart of Christ!
They are blinded their own arrogance and have spent too much time in the bossom of hypocrisy.
@Eric you seem to be spewing the same SGM retoric they put forth every time any one brings an observation the padtors dont like: distrust your observation, distrust your mind and what you see. What makes you think Kerrin isn’t being honest? As far as I can tell he just wanted to leave a church and take his family? What possible justification does SGM give of a biblical divorce in his case?
Wow I sound wasted. What I wanted to say (thank you spell check) was that I ache at the pain behind your response to Eric NLR. And I just don’t think that anyone who can minimize a blog community of persons whose lives have been shattered by places like SGM has the compassion of Christ. This is not amazon and these arent widgets, these are real people and real tears and real years that are wasted. Can I get an :amen
No Longer Reformed — One of the things that I thought this site is about is that people are sharing their stories. Well, my story is that in over 20 years in SGM, I haven’t seen any of the things that people are saying here, nor have I encountered a single person who has. You have to admit — the odds seem against that, but its true.
My story is also that I don’t believe anything in life simply because someone tells that it is so. If I told you that I play basketball for the NBA champion Mavericks, you’d be foolish to believe me just because I said it. I check things out. If someone tells me that SGM is messing with people, well, I want to check it out. But don’t expect me to just open and swallow. That’s just who I am, that’s all. That is not a personal attack on any specific person or their experience. It’s a generalized statement of cautiousness. Its just me sharing my story and how I view life. No one should take offense at it.
But you’re really missing the larger point — that I’m someone who has spent most of their Christian life in SGM (22 out of 26 years), and have never seen any abuse, but I’m being affected by the stories here, even if I remain skeptical of some of the details. That means you’re having an affect.
Kerrin — Your questions would suggest that you seem to think that I am Eric Simmons. You are mistaken. But my name IS Eric and I’ve chosen to not hide behind an anonymous name. I’m shocked at your story only because I’m familiar with you…and you might know who I am, as well.
I am encouraging everyone I know to ask their pastors about this. I am waiting to hear Bob K’s response and if he decides to go through with this and try to keep Kerrins children from him, I will put up posters all over Montgomery County, Frederick County, Virginia, Mt Airy, Rockville,Gaithersburg and definately all the Starbucks anywhere I can find one. I will also ask for donations to help save Kerrins Children. I cannot undo the things that have happened to my own family. I can not get back those years. I can not get back the years that I was so afraid to speak out what I felt God was speaking to me. I can not heal the pain my sons have been through because of this kind of tragic control and sinful practices. I cant undo the lack of freedom in their young lives to learn about the God who loves them so much. Instead they heard “do all the right things and you will be fine” and if you want to know what those right things are, do what we do…and then be cast aside when they were not needed anymore.
I wish it could have been different, but this is what God has allowed in my life. But, with this situation now, with a friend, a brother,I will not sit back and do nothing. I will not sit back and just let a “Worship Leader” of all things, think he can decide the future of another mans children merely because he has more money, and whatever other ungodly motive he may have. Keeping children away from their father who loves them and they love for his own personal reasons and vindictiveness. After spending years praising him for his godliness only come against him if he doesnt comply with the rules?? I pray that the eyes of bobs heart may be opened or he will see his face on every telephone pole, stop sign, traffic signal, etc I can get my hands on. And I know Plenty of people who could use some money to help me to do that too. One thing about that is that Bob will certainly get his notoriety.
LFH,
For me, it always seems like a court case in which the abused has the burden of proof resting upon them. People dont even realize how hard it is to even acjnowlege you were or are being abused by someone. Most people have not experienced such a traumatic experience in which one cannot even describe with sufficient verbiage what is happening to you. People that I know at my recently former church, Capitol Hill Bap, also have that same expectation of me: that I sufficiently satisfy their requirements with an explanation that covers not only my entire experience but justly so that it proved what I am telling them about issues within the church that are spiritually abusive. I have not nod, in sharing with many, succeeded in convincing others that there are some real serious issues within that congregation as well without them first attacking my anger, bitterness, concern for my heart and so forth. They all look like glassed over deer in headlights when I speak of the issues and have no other responses other than vehemently defending their pastors and elders; whom are NOT the Gospel but don’t tell them that.
It’s a shame that a person has to prove such a thing when one cannot satisfy the requirements of others to meet such demands. Spiritual abuse is what I call trickery. It’s a subtle, sly and stealthy thing that appears attractive and right but is an all consuming fire. It will burn down a house.
I’ve sat there and watched two friends be discredited and have others convince them that what they experienced was not what actually happened. It saddened me. But the lord gave me the strength to let it go. Most of us have to learn the hard way. I know I do. Ultimately, they will revisit this place again and probably with more sorrow than the first time around. I thank God fir the courage to stand, even though I am alone. It’s lonely but it’d better than being enslaved to erroneous doctrine and harmful culture. I’m happier where I am than most of them miserable where they are. How can you share the Gospel when your fakeness is apparent and where there truly is no discernible joy in your heart? People aren’t stupid, we just choose to be. We exchange discernment and taking hard stands for acceptance, status, pride and exalting our selves, our elitism. I know because that’s who I had allowed myself to become and I am not proud of that– AT ALL.
@Eric,
I have a better idea who you are now. Totally my mistake! I did think you were ES. And my questions were primarily directed toward ES, not you. In other words, I responded to your statements as if you were ES, an SGM leader, and I would not have responded with that line of questing had I known it was someone else.
Apologies.
I’m glad you are here reading. I hope that it brings a degree of clarity rather than confuses.
Eric, you stated: “No Longer Reformed — One of the things that I thought this site is about is that people are sharing their stories. Well, my story is that in over 20 years in SGM, I haven’t seen any of the things that people are saying here, nor have I encountered a single person who has. You have to admit — the odds seem against that, but its true.
My story is also that I don’t believe anything in life simply because someone tells that it is so. If I told you that I play basketball for the NBA champion Mavericks, you’d be foolish to believe me just because I said it. I check things out. If someone tells me that SGM is messing with people, well, I want to check it out. But don’t expect me to just open and swallow. That’s just who I am, that’s all. That is not a personal attack on any specific person or their experience. It’s a generalized statement of cautiousness. Its just me sharing my story and how I view life. No one should take offense at it.
But you’re really missing the larger point — that I’m someone who has spent most of their Christian life in SGM (22 out of 26 years), and have never seen any abuse, but I’m being affected by the stories here, even if I remain skeptical of some of the details. That means you’re having an affect.”
A few responses:
1. Eric, THAT is not your story. Maybe you are confusing “your story” with your point of view? Your point of view tells me that because in your experienc you ave not wu eased or seen these events, you feel the need t challenge whether they are valid or not.
2. You say you hav been in SGM 20 years. Why would I not give you the benefit of the doubt that you are being truthful? The same benefit you are NOT offering others. I could just go by your standard and say well, I haven’t seen you there ever so maybe you are stretching the truth to earn credibility. How would you even go about proving your tenure there? Why should I require it?
3. Again, it is not your story that you don’t just believe at others say, that would be called your opinion. Again, two different things. I can far easily confirm your participation in the NBA than abuse, especially spiritual abus that’s happened to you that has also been systematically concealed and covered over. You are comparing oranges and apples Herr.
I Aldo think that if you really wish to investigate tes matters to satisfy your requirements, then I’d first suggest, if you haven’t already, that you study ad read some of the greater literature n spiritual abuse, paternalism, authoritarianism in Oder that you may learn exactly what it is and what t looks like in practice. How can you “recognize” something if you’re not aware even what it looks like?
3. Your generalized statement of cautiousness and non-personal attack was in fact neither cautious or benign. It was very personal because you made a statement that directly challenged the validity of people’s experiences here–that’s VERY personal and it doesn’t make it non-personal just because you dont feel it was your intention.
4. You also insult me by saying that I’m missing the larger point as if I had not the ability to discern or deduce from your commenyd that you want us all to know your larger point. That also, is your opinion. Because that was most important to you about what you said doesn’t mean I missed the point. What it does mean is that I took a larger issue with your sentiment to tell s you only may believe 10% of what’s said because you have never seen it and maybe we have stretched our perspectives a little. See, you see that as minor where fr me and others, that’s a big frackn’ deal.
Again, honestly, you’re the one at a disadvantage because of your qualifications that one must meet in order for something to be valid to you. Not everything is identifiable by mere observation. And just because you’ve been at your church for 20 was d have seen nothing, and I visited fir two weeks and saw bunches may say more about your own discernment than the lack of real experiences here. Sometimes, Eric, we just dont know what to look fr or what we’re even looking St. Unfortunately, time in service is nt a qualifier fr a unique experience. There are far more factors that influence such an outcome.
Sorry for all the misspelled words. My iPad is sensitive.
NLR,
I was wondering what was happening, lol! At first I thought it was auto-correct, but then I thought, it HAD to be something else going on. :)
Hey Eric,
Just a quick question. While you may have never seen the issues, surely you are aware of many people that simply “left” or disappeared in a way from the church family? The details were typically never discussed in CLC as it would be gossip or slander. To simply say that they were not doing well, or left was typically sufficient for most, myself included. Some of those people are here, and given your time at CLC, may be familiar names and faces for you.
Ellie, it’s that, too! Auto-correct hates me and the typing field is so small.
Kerrin – No problem. I understand. There is nothing unclear about what you’re saying — its just hard to believe. I never would have guessed that this could happen. But keep being real and being honest.
No Longer Reformed — I had typed and was going to post a very long response defending my position, but I’ve decided against it. You have your opinion, which I respect — and I have mine. We’re all different people. I just don’t think like you do.
Eric,
Please don’t stop telling us exactly what you think. I know it will be difficult because your thoughts have few to no allies here. But I know these people are not against you personally. Do I have an alterier motive? Yes, I think you wouldn’t be here if there were not some questions in your mind, or of course you may just be the ‘spokesperson’ for a larger group.. IDK.. just a thought… But it may be a place to wash out your thoughts so you can start thinking clean thoughts of your own.
I of course can’t say if you were abused or not just because he say you weren’t. I had a friend at my IFB school where her and I were abused. She grew up, got married, and put her kids in that same school. I could hardly believe it, but to her it wasn’t abuse… she thought we deserved all the screwiness we experienced. She was the girl in the 8th grade who received the paddle I wrote about when I first started blogging about the day I refused it from the perverted teacher. A person from the CLC school told me they still used that kind of corporal punishment just a few years ago too. Don’t know if they still do. Thought that was ancient stuff left back in my day. I don’t believe anyone but parents and only on a very rare occasion have the right to corporally a punish minor child. Where is THAT biblical and godly. Did you go to the CLC school? Did you see any of that? Why is it important to me? You are too young yet to know what it feels like to feel attached to future grandkids and already worried about them before they’re even conceived. That’s why.
oops, meant to say ‘just because you say you weren’t.. but then again I wasn’t sure I was either for years because I was told by he people that I wasn’t.. lol
:beat :beat :beat :beat :beat :beat :beat that darn horse, bad bad girl
Just a piece of advice I learned while in a counseling ministry… And need I not say that it was a parachurch ministry (clutches pearls):
When people tell you their story or something troublesome
1. Don’t challenge right off the bat whether it’s true or not. Just listen.
2. Listen some more.
3. Ask questions. Ask many questions as they will allow. You will learn a lot.
4. Listen some more.
5. Your opinions aren’t as important as you think they are. Be mindful and be very careful. Be considerate and aware of your own pride.
6. Listen some more
In this way, you are guaranteed to learn far more than you ever would versus boldly stating your unfounded opinions, challenging the veracity of a persons views and perceptions and doing more talking than listening. It is not your job to fix them or the situation. You are there to learn and to listen–and should do all of this before forming your informed opinions.
Thanks, Patti. Yes, I’m here because I’m seeing things that I no longer care for. I have many questions. Some of them may turn out to be nothing. Some may turn to be big issues for me. I’m on my own quest.
Unassimilated — Yes, that’s true. And it sometimes does make me wonder why certain people have left. But it’s a big place and there can be many reasons for someone leaving — most of which are quite “normal”. I’m sure its possible that there are people here that I would be familiar with, at least in name.
Eric,
You may have a penchant for fast motorcycle trips pointing you to “your residence”. :wink: I would have you consider that what most of us heard about ourselves post SGM departure was just as shocking and surprising as what you read here.
I was shocked to learn that Kerrin’s salvation was in question myself, then again, it is hard to separate salvation and participation in the SGM Church. They both point to the other.
Eric–
Yes, you are right. We ARE different. Experience with tough life stories and walking people through some terrible seasons of their lives have changed me forever and has taught me many important lessons about abuse, pain, sharing, etc… It has also taught me a lot about how to relate to ithers who have toigh life situations and what is and isnt helpful to share. The issues here are very difficult ones to deal with and should be approached with by much careful considerations and choice of words–being given the same respect and careful consideration you would if you disagreed with your pastors. Not everything we think needs to be shared and neither is helpful for those who are wounded. I hope that if you stick around, that you read until you go cross-eyed and you ask question after question. I believe you will learn a lot.
Eric,
The thing that has blown me away over the 3 years since we left SGM is that the stories you will read are coming from all over the country. Yes, Kerrin’s story hails from Mecca, so that’s the focus right now. I started there too…but as we moved to 3 different states and were in 3 different SGM churches, there are similar threads woven throughout SGM. The people you’re reading are coast-to-coast…experiencing the same abuses.
As you are reading and listening and taking things in, please keep that in mind.
Oh, and I’m thinking that only a small percent of people who have been hurt are willing to talk. Consider that the stories you read here are probably only a small representation.
Welcome and keep reading. You could even find old friends who left….
Sidney