Despite Apology, Josh Harris Releasing “Boy Meets Girl” Again
June 27, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
So, the other day, Josh Harris announced that his publisher is re-releasing Boy Meets Girl. On his blog, he sought reader input for which cover he should choose for the new version.
Apparently, this new version will also be edited to remove some of the stories Josh Harris used as anecdotal evidence for how well courtship works…since at least two of the featured couples have either divorced or are in the process of divorcing.
Considering how many problems have arisen out of the courtship system Josh Harris advocates in Boy Meets Girl, and considering how he recently stood up in front of Covenant Life Church and quasi-apologized for helping to create an environment where godly living was “reduced to one practice,” it’s rather interesting that this book is being re-published so it can influence another generation of young people. Josh Harris even acknowledged in his apology that the “ideas in my [Josh’s] books” were one of the false standards used in “reducing to one practice.”
It seems like in addition to editing out the now-unsuccessful courtship stories, Josh Harris’ publishers would do well to add some sort of disclaimer about the pitfalls of practicing courtship as it is promoted in Boy Meets Girl. That might be a better use of their time and energy, instead of worrying about whether or not to depict hand-holding on the new cover.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
This is sad to hear that two of the couples featured in Harris’s “Boy Meets Girl” book are divorced or in the process. Of course it just goes to show how imperfect courtship can be despite the illusion of it being so much better that Josh Harris and others always seem to teach.
Sadly Harris and others are quick to point out all the problems with dating and seem clueless about all the problems “kissing dating goodbye” and courtship have caused.
I understand that Harris is going to revise this book. Maybe he will be more honest this time with the problems courtship has caused but I am not holding my breath. I doubt a book that was more honest wouldn’t have near the sales that I am sure he gets from the homeschooling crowd.
I have a blog that critiques “kissing dating goodbye” and courtship.
http://www.ikdg.wordpress.com
Last night I spent time with a friend who is 30 and single. She confided to me that she has never been on a date and never been kissed. She does not want to single for the rest of her life. But she feels confused as to how to change things. She says that just a few weeks ago her mother challenged her to being open to men. Maybe try a dating web site or two.
My friend is screwing up her courage and trying really hard to change. But it isn’t easy. She says she doesn’t understand men at all. And doesn’t know how to relate to them.
I asked her if she was this way because she just didn’t find anyone she liked or if it was due to the influence of I Kissed Dating Good-bye. (Keep in mind I didn’t even know if she had ever heard of the book or Josh Harris, at all. But she reminded me of too many other people in her age group who didn’t seem to know how to relate to the opposite gender. She is lovely in so many ways, but her social skills in this one area is seriously broken. So I suspected that she missed the very normal, healthy step of learning how to relate to the opposite gender.) When I asked her, she immediately resonded, “Oh, my whole church was influenced by that book!” (To my knowledge, her childhood church was not SGM related.) She then went on to say that she heard about the book her freshman year of college and that she believed it had an influence on her shutting down to the opposite sex. (That is a paraphrase as I can’t remember all of her exact words.)
This made me very sad, especially considering the fact that this publishing house is trotting out the same old schlock that has done so much damage to countless souls, isolating them and making them lonely beyond belief.
I also thought this was interesting. Today I was discussing her dilema/fear/loneliness with a common friend of ours. (I was not betraying any confidences- this is a long story- but I was not.) The common friend is a male. His first question was to ask if she even liked men. I told him that she she claims to. He seemed somewhat surprised and said, “She doesn’t dress like it.”
Please allow me to clarify a few things about this story before I go any further.
1) This friend has a daughter who is gay and I have never seen him stereotype people by their clothes, etc and I have certainly never heard him make any disparaging comments about any person based on their gender/sexual preference.
2) This friend’s daughter does not dress in a fashion that some people consider masculine or whatever other stereotype that some might apply to the fashion of women who are gay. She is very fashion conscious and is always on the cutting edge of style, so my friend is not associating his comments to any ridiculous stereotype of gay women and their dress.
3) This woman who was heavily influenced by “I Kissed Dating Good-bye”, has never dressed in a way that one would EVER consider masculine or athletic. (No, I am not saying that if you dress one way or another it means anything. I am trying to make a point that my male friend did not at all make these statements due to any perceived stereo-type. I have a point, I promise. I am getting to it.)
4) I have never seen this male friend ever even acknowledge a woman’s sexual dress or allow himself to be bothered by it one way or another. Neither offense or getting worked up about it. (He’s kinda oblivious to most fashion.)
5) This female friend does not dress overtly sexual at all. But neither does she wear baggy clothes. Some of her things show some collar bone and are body conscious. (She is very fit.)
Yet in spite of all of these facts, even HE could read that there was something in the way she dressed that said that she did not want any male attention. (For those of you who care about such a thing, this may be interesting. For those of you who couldn’t care any less, it’s nto going to be interesting in the least.)
What is it about a woman who dresses in a current fashion, but somehow does it in such a way that she communicates to even the most oblivious of men, “Stay away. I don’t even like men!” when really she does like men and really, she wants to be involved with one.
I believe it is associated with her fears due to the “foreignness” of men. (Hey, I think they are foreign, too. But that’s a whole other story. ;-) )
Our kids were in college when IKDG became the rage. One night, I was talking to one of their college friends, and she mentioned that “Jane and John” were dating. Among college Christians, you wouldn’t think this was a bombshell of a statement, but I could tell from her tone that it was a significant statement. I asked about the IKDG book — she answered that in their Campus Crusade group, THAT’S ALL ANYONE EVER TALKED ABOUT — in her words, “Everyone is obsessed by whether or not they should date. It’s HUGE.”
Heartbreaking.
I posted this awhile back, in response to a discussion about Brent D’s old Questions For Courtship document that was making the rounds throughout the SGM organization a few years ago. But I think it also fits as a response to Josh Harris’ Boy Meets Girl.
To piggyback on Stunned’s comment, it strikes me that SGM’s dual emphases – on courtship AND “modesty” – present a double whammy on a young woman’s ability to relate naturally to the opposite sex.
I can’t remember who it was, but I had to chuckle when someone responded to CJ’s The Heart of Modesty teaching by asking why, instead of focusing on the woman’s responsibility to dress so as not to inflame a man’s lust, he’s not telling the MEN to follow the instructions of Jesus – “If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out.”
Making such a big deal out of “modesty” is, I think, going to have the effect of causing the more sensitive girls to develop extreme self-consciousness about what they wear. Add to that an emphasis on having guys and girls relate to one another ONLY as “brothers” and “sisters” – well, it’s not hard to imagine how someone coming of age in that system would simply not learn how to portray herself in an “available” sort of way.
Comments in the previous thread regarding Josh’s use of personal stories without asking permission shocked me. Even if he changed the names, he should’ve asked, and made sure to hide identifying details. How sad. And I remember being so sad when I either read in one of his books or heard him on a radio show, can’t remember which, maybe both, when he spoke freely of his wife’s dating history — with her permission, he said. Well — any SGM wife is gonna give permission – remember, they never say “no”. The fact that he was honest was refreshing, but you can be honest and discreet at the same time. I wondered if even mentioning this served a good purpose.
And I wonder — if Josh’s apology was truly heartfelt, it might have been really decent of him to say to his publisher that he’d been mistaken in some of his application advice. I do hope that if there’s a rewrite, he revamps his dogmatic position, and stops making single Christians feel like they have no godly choice but to do the “courtship” thing.
The use of the very word, “courtship”, for this kind of relationship bothers me. In my grandparents’ day, they’d say, “You courtin’ anybody these days?” — which meant DATING — going out for buggy rides, rumble seat picnics, or just a’settin on the porch swing. When the porch swing stopped a’creakin’, Papa would appear at the front door and clear his throat. That put the kabosh on any hanky panky. Oh, for the good ol’ days…
Nickname….and the others who commented before the last thread was closed…he didn’t use our names. And he was kinda vague enough that only the people who knew us would guess that he was talking about us. It wasn’t fair and it’s hurt was felt pretty deeply…and not just by us.
Sid
You know, I wish we could reclaim the words “courtship” and “courting…” I remember hearing some almost-aunts and uncles (I mean, people I called aunt and uncle) talking about “Back when we were courting…”
The “back when” they were talking about was during the 50’s, long before “courtship” was the Godly Thing to Do Instead of Dating. It was basically dating–spending time with one person who was special, and who knew he or she was special to you and who felt the same way.
Let’s take that word back. “Courtin'” anyway. Let’s take it back.
Sidney,
This use of people’s stories happened A LOT when we attended in Chesapeake (93-2003). Most of the time, it was in the form of a message from the pulpit. Someone would wrestle with leaving the church and, inevitably, the message would come around to an example where they were “…let me be careful…” and they would point out how a particular sin (typically pride/arrogance or refusal to submit to leadership)drove “Dick and Jane” from the church. Though they “disguised” their identity, it was evident to nearly everybody of whom they were speaking. Pretty sleazy, but typical SGM behavior when we were involved. Did everyone else here experience hearing the same sort of outings from the pulpit? Definitely sleazy, but one of those things that ultimately led me to question things more and more as we maintained relationships with these people (and saw absolutely no evidence of their supposed sins).
Good suggestion, Luna. Time to redeem the loaded language and let things mean WHAT THEY MEAN! Today, I was trying to compliment someone on something they had done for the church — and the word “serve” fit the situation perfectly. But it just wouldn’t come out — I choked on it.
“Goin’ courtin, going courtin” — song from Seven Brides for Seven Brothers…now, there’s a real definition!
Stunned, I love your friends. Hey, let’s take her shopping!
Kris — you’re so right about the effect of the modesty teaching. I totally disagreed with the entire checklist thing — but even as a middle-aged mama, I felt self-conscious that someone might take exception to something I wore to church @ SGM. I know there’s been long threads of discussion on the Modesty Manifesto, so I’m not trying to start another conversation about all that == but I think about a wonderfully modest girl that I know who is blessed with cleavage goes all the way to her chin. She’ll never be able to pass the modesty muster. What condemnation will she have to endure?
#10 I felt self-conscious that someone might take exception to something I wore to church
Yeah,I know what you mean. There was one Sunday in particular that I remember when this lady came up to me and said,”Oh you look so pretty this morning”.””I love your outfit”.If only you would wear this different and pin your blouse up higher.My husband didn’t seem to have a problem with the outfit.I guess they would of been happy with the old potato sack dress.Funny how she complimented me right before she delivered the good old fashioned sgm correction. :beat
Kris-
I grew up in that system. Guys were told that any attraction was lustful if you weren’t immediately ready to get married. I didn’t want to lust over my friends and people i cared about. Women were told to care for their brothers and be modest. Whatever that really means. All this created a forced and sterile environment.
They made a judgement call -they thought it better to err on the side of “purity” so they created an environment of zero exploration. How’s that working out?
@seeking truth,
You said,
This is part of the classic “carrot and stick” psychological routine you find in many high-demand (cultic) groups. It makes the harsh-critism (or legalism) go down smoother. It’s pervasive in the culture of SGM. I remember CJ actually making a formula out of this when I was in the “pastor’s college” he would say 10 ‘evidences of grace’ for every correction. Funny how that’s not even in scripture… anywhere! It’s another trick used to make people conform to the social norms and prescribed social standards the leaders think up.
@jimmy,
Yeah, it was Neil as I recall.
Oh, it’s really okay that Josh uses people’s personal stories without asking because remember he’s “caring for people’s souls” and shepherding the sheep—he know’s what best for them. Everyone should be grateful for the immense privilege of having him share your personal stories to the world. Never mind that he get’s rich in the process… he’s doing the work of God.
Full disclosure: I was aware that my story would be published, but I wasn’t asked if my real name could be used or not. I do remember being somewhat jealous of those who had code names in the book. And at that time, I thought I must be doing something right if Josh is willing to write about it in a book… augh!
Kerrin 13-
Maybe a sincere apology that contains restitution should involve profit-sharing with those he used in his book(s), especially those he used without asking first. Should I hold my breath?
I used to hear those back-handed compliments all the time. The ladies of the church were especially fond of using them as a manipulation tool. Our pastor, on the other hand, would just come right out and say stupid crap (boys with long hair = abomination) or break out a ruler to measure our shorts at the front door (no shorter than 3 inches above the knee).
I especially enjoyed, “Oh, you got your hair cut…don’t worry, it will grow back soon”. Thanks…
Somehow, though, our little slice of Frederick County fundamentalism still considered CLC/SGM folks to be nuts…
Courting was such a joke at my former church. Sure there were a few that “did it right” but a good majority of the young adults had “behind their parent’s backs” romances. According to my sources, most kids were lying to their parent’s about EVERYTHING. Some handled this nonsense about “guarding your heart” by forcefully denying any feelings they had for the opposite sex because unless this said “object of possible lust” started courting them, the thoughts and feelings had to be shoved down.I know some just like Stunned said, that don’t necessarily dress a certain way to ‘protect” themselves I believe it’s their body language that says “hands off and I’m saving myself for who knows and who knows when”. This backfires in so many ways. They never learn to have their own convictions and boundaries. They just don’t know how to interact with the opposite sex. The ones that ignored the rules either came to our church after puberty started and had normal parents or they were ALWAYS labeled by the sgm parents as kids to stay away from IF you wanted your child to remain pure.
Has CJ or any of the “higher ups” EVER talked about their “courting” experience? :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:
Nickname, we experienced similar with our children. Their christian friends were constantly confused and messed up relationally. I can remember many a conversation with everyone trying to make sense of it all. Some appear to have finally married “successfully”, but many are still struggling, and some have left the faith all together.
It didn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out why they were all so confused. I’ll never forget a time when the kids’ grandmother overheard them discussing the “relational mess” at a family social. She thought it was the craziest thing she had ever heard.
For those I personally know who were raised in the mess and appear to be happily married and “normal”…they “cheated” and did the stuff normal people do when they interact with the opposite sex and date to get to know someone well enough to make a decision to marry. I knew about the secret phone calls, texting, and instant messaging, and all the lying they did to their parents in order to pull off “secret dates.” There were MANY times that their buddies “covered” for them.
“Where there’s a will, there’s a way.”
I find this an interesting contradiction where Josh Harris is disappointed that Kerrin’s story is being shared here but Harris has shared a number of other people’s private stories either in his books, blog or from the pulpit.
Is this another case of do as I say vs. do what I do? It sure sounds like it.
Here is one blog entry where I share a story posted somewhere else (with permission) about the “kissing dating goodbye fad”
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/one-persons-historical-account-of-the-kissing-dating-goodbye-fad/
On another note, one thing I found interesting was Carolyn McCulley’s book asking if she had “kissed marriage goodbye.” Early in the book she talks about a group of single women that “embraced” “kissing dating goodbye” and then is disappointed that around 7 years later most of these women weren’t married. Carolyn McCulley seems to ignore even the possibility that “kissing dating goodbye” could have lead to these women kissing marriage goodbye.
It is sad that one can’t even be open to or see that this practice may have lead to most of these women not getting married. Sadly this seems to reflect the SGM culture of not questioning things. SGM Members were told that “kissing dating goodbye” is a much better system by their leaders so their is no way that couldn’t be the case.
I’m sure some of the guys that “sell” the courtship crap believe in it.
But there are also the guys who know full well they’re capitalizing on the fears of Christian parents. They peddle their “formulas” in the form of books, CD’s, homeschool curriculum, conferences, followings, etc. It’s a HUGE market…and it’s VERY profitable. When parents don’t trust their children and their parenting to the Holy Spirit, they’re “sitting ducks” for these guys.
It’s mind boggling to me that they boast the “sovereignty of God” but distrust the Holy Spirit’s ability to guide them.
Pam (#16), I see we observed some of the same. :wink:
You know, it’s the kids who try the hardest to be obedient to authority and put forth the most effort to do the “right thing” that suffer from this crap.
Shame on the adults who are feeding them this stuff. :x The “millstone” verse comes to mind…
Another reason to take the principles that Josh Harris teaches with a grain of salt. It goes to show that even following his principles of courtship does not guarantee a successful marriage.
I appreciate the story that Kerrin shared. It sounds like classic SGM, PDI, or whatever it’s known as this week, philosophy.
I used to attend Fairfax Covenant Church (now known as Sovereign Grace Fairfax) and I was talking to someone about my desire to have a mate. He was asking me, “how do you know that God is calling you to that?” I believe that God has given me that desire and he is the one who is to fulfill it. I felt like I couldn’t get married unless it was sanctioned by SGM.
A good book to read on the subject of dating is “Dating With Pure Passion” by Rob Eager.
When you read IKDG, you get the impression of a very sincere young single, earnest for the Lord and eager to live a pure and holy life. I understand the appeal of Harris with his first book, and really, he seems like a sweetie in it.
The problem is that as he reflects on all that was wrong with his dating from age 15-17, and then some of his feelings and actions at age 17 and after, he takes good insight and applies it to singles in a much older and more mature stage of life. I actually agree with his thinking on 15-16 years olds in a hot and heavy romance that is all consuming and central. 10th grade is not the place for that, and he had some good advice to offer.
The real problem I think is CJ, who took an earnest young guy under his wing and tried to create a legalistic puppet clone, instead of packing the kid off to a good bible college or Reformed Seminary for a decent education (did he go to any school besides PC?).
One can only hope CJ’s selfish eye for business and his own agenda comes back to bite him, when Josh takes the sincerity and zeal and turns it against all that is wrong with SGM. I have yet to give up hope entirely with Josh, and I think it is possible he could become another bold voice like Kerrin. We can pray.
5years–
Very good points for sure, and I think a lot of us have a lot of hope that Josh will be part of the change. I think we have to temper that optimism though because of the recent revelations on this board in the last 24 hours that Josh has betrayed the confidence of multiple close friends and people whom he was counseling, and that when confronted about those issues he has refused to apologize. I think that is an appalling trait in any person, saved or not, and even worse for any leader, saved or not.
5 Years Said:
“The problem is that as he reflects on all that was wrong with his dating from age 15-17, and then some of his feelings and actions at age 17 and after, he takes good insight and applies it to singles in a much older and more mature stage of life. I actually agree with his thinking on 15-16 years olds in a hot and heavy romance that is all consuming and central. 10th grade is not the place for that, and he had some good advice to offer.”
That is one of the biggest problems with KDG. It is taking something that is more apt for teenagers and forcing it on all ages. It was also Harris’s solution to a problem he had and thus doesn’t mean it should apply to all even teenagers. That is some teenagers can “date” responsibly and balanced.
Here are a few blog entries where people talk about how kissing dating lead to problems. One blog is actually commenting on the other blog entry. They are especially talking about loss of social skills due to “kissing dating goodbye.”
http://drjames.blogspot.com/2009/06/ever-kiss-dating-goodbye-and-regret-it.html
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life/relationship/features/17083-i-kissed-dating-goodbye-but-where-did-it-go
This was posted in the other thread, but I wanted to comment on it here:
“anonforchristianfreedom” posted a comment on Josh Harris’ blog, specifically asking him about what he would be doing to address the changes in Kerrin’s situation. Here was Josh’s response:
I am disgusted by Josh’s efforts to turn a legitimate concern about Boy Meets Girl into a condemnation of our discussion of Kerrin’s situation. He may be the “kinder, gentler” face of SGM, CJ’s go-to guy to smooth things over, but he is nonetheless manipulative. He just makes it go down a lot better with his pleasantries. Ugh. He’s so oily in his words…
I also thought it was interesting when Sidney posted this, in response to what Josh said about how he was working with his publishers to update Kerrin’s story:
In the end, I’m afraid that this is all about money for Josh Harris and his publisher. There’s such a lack of integrity in Josh’s efforts to deflect legitimate concerns about his book and blame his readers for their “misapplication” of his ideas…as well as to try and back-pedal and act like his version of the courtship system isn’t about trying to decrease divorces. Sure, he may not outright SAY, in so many words, that the courtship system prevents divorce. But it’s absolutely implied in so many ways.
Again – I have very mixed feelings about Josh Harris. On the one hand, he comes across as nicer…and definitely cooler…than so many of the other SGM pastors. He’s got a great way with words. But the bottom line is that he refuses to take responsibility for the bad results of the garbage he has published. Instead, he shifts the blame onto his readers for either misunderstanding or misapplying what he’s written.
To be fair to Josh, he did get up on ONE Sunday several years ago at CLC and gave the young adults of that particular gathering permission to have coffee with someone of the opposite sex.
One year.
One Sunday.
One church.
One service.
:bang
Or, perhaps this wasn’t Josh’s idea at all, and the publisher is trying to survive in a cut-throat market where Christian publishing is at the bottom of the heap, and BMG was one of their most profitable books and they’re trying to get a little more life out of it?
I personally believe re-releasing “Boy Meets Girl” will do even more damage to Josh Harris and SGM. Courtship and homeschooling are what SGM’s best known for. It will draw attention back to that fact.
Courtship is a “hot topic” right now and is being debated heavily. All the negative statistics and personal testimonies are hurting the the “courtship movement”. There’s a lot of negative publicity out there. We discussed the fact that “Focus on the Family” has pulled many of their “courtship articles” and “courtship couples’ stories” a few days ago on the blog. Other parachurch ministries are beginning to do the same. I believe courtship is finally on it’s way out, at least within healthy/balanced christendom. Cults, extremists, controlling and fearful folk will always embrace some form of it.
Courtship is STILL a “hill to die on” for SGM. As you say, Kris, Josh Harris has got “a great way with words.” Maybe he has come up with way to save the “movement” and continue to promote his books and SGM.
Remnant said:
“To be fair to Josh, he did get up on ONE Sunday several years ago at CLC and gave the young adults of that particular gathering permission to have coffee with someone of the opposite sex.
One year.
One Sunday.
One church.
One service.”
And I am sure that one message corrected years upon years of problems that caused things to be so stand offish etc. ;-)
This includes the problems that started around 1978 when the group started pushing “kissing dating goodbye” but wasn’t called that back then.
I am sure one message would do the job. ;-)
:bang
How many books were sold?
How many churches promoted it?
How many homeschooling groups?
How many cities?
How many states?
How many years?
How much money has he made off it?
And how much sorrow has been endured by men and women who have not been able to follow the biblical principal of “be fruitful and multiply” because they followed the non-biblical suggestions of Josh’s book and teachings?
I’ve heard from former SGM members that when SGM started “easing up” on their strong stance for homeschooling and courtship due to the negative publicity on the blogs, a LOT of SGMers got angry.
I think SGM is now having to deal with both the discontent of current (tithing) pro-courtship SGMers AND the negative publicity.
It should be interesting.
It’s a lot like politics. :wink:
One thing about Josh Harris’ first blockbuster, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, is that it drew heavily from Bill Gothard’s little booklet, which I think was entitled something like Establishing Biblical Standards For Courtship.
Here is an excerpt from Bill Gothard’s own website:
Can anyone discern anything very different in this Gothard approach, versus what Josh puts forth in Boy Meets Girl? I can’t.
I’m wondering if Josh Harris has ever acknowledged Gothard’s influence on his thinking? How likely is it that the Harris family was into Gothardism in the 1980s?
Kindred,
I’d agree with you that SGM is definitely having to walk a tightrope with how they are handling the negative publicity about the courtship system.
It’s almost like they’re engaging in a bait-and-switch now. I know that MANY people who came to SGM in previous years landed there because they wanted to be part of a community that shared their values…some of which involved a desire to avoid “dating” and practice courtship instead.
Matter of fact, in my recent re-reading of the original Boy Meets Girl, the book came across as a huge advertisement for CLC. Josh cites so many positive examples from his own church and makes CLC sound like such a great place that I can imagine his book probably influenced a lot of people to seek out SGM churches, if they were inclined toward wanting courtship for their kids. CLC sounds like a veritable courtship mecca in Josh’s book.
But now, the people who came to SGM because they wanted to do courtship are finding that SGM is having to distance themselves from the system…that must be awfully head-spinning for everyone.
Mattie,
I considered similar, but everything SGM does is “intentional.”
If that’s the case, Josh/SGM went along with it because it’s going to serve them in some way, as well.
The stuff that was shared on the other thread about Josh Harris’ habit of using people’s stories without their permission is another concern.
I know Jimmy was one who mentioned this. Jimmy, if you’re reading, did you share your concerns with Josh? What was his response? Did he remove your story from subsequent editions of his book?
courtship is bubble-wrap. lazy pastors find it easier to child-proof male/female interactions, rather than dealing with the harder reality that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to it (like there isn’t to anything in life). so they “raise the bar” and paint one practice into every life with their gigantic brush. guess what, some people will fail. you might have to deal with some people having sex before marriage, and maybe even a teen pregnancy, and maybe even an std. but the answer to those problems is not to wrap up everyone in bubble-wrap, so that everyone will be ‘safe’, and so that no one will ever fail in those ways. –isn’t that called unbelief? which in sgm is really practical atheism? are josh and the other pastors so worried people might sin that they are acting like atheists?– because, drum roll please, without some failure people never learn! i know that might be a foreign concept to some, but i learn way more from my failures than i do my successes. if your chief goal is to keep me/us from failing, because it is easier for you, then i/we will learn nothing. and there it is. this is just one of the many ways sgm tries to keep their members from learning, which is to say, they want to keep their members young/naive/dependent. bubble-wrap = effective crowd control = naive people = they need us to show them how to do ________ = we make lots of money on merchandise. they say they do it from a pastor’s heart and because they don’t want to see their people suffer through avoidable problems. that is a great motive. and i hope its real. but having that motive and using it to justify the manipulation of a large group of imperfect but genuinely teachable and humble people, ‘for their own good’, turns your church into a prison and maligns the gospel and cross you hold in such esteem (or so you say). if you don’t see that, then you are a fool that refuses to acknowledge his own reflection.
I’m hearing that it is, indeed, Kris.
They’ve got a mess.
And can you imagine the mess Kerrin’s story and the comments by commenters on the blog has stirred up? No wonder Josh is franticially at work on damage control. Poor guy’s going to have a nervous breakdown of his own.
I’ve posted before about my experience with this all in my non-SGM but SGM-friendly church where Josh’s books sit on the book stall and have been read by almost everyone there. Yes, the courtship culture there sucks–even though it works for most people, and by most people, I mean, young, beautiful and caucasian. By working–I mean, they get married. Not whether or not the marriage is successful or even a good one.
In the two years that I was a member at CHBC, there have been at least 20 weddings, all over the expanse of like maybe a few months even.
Someone mentioned here before about serial weddings. I didn’t know what that meant until I thoguht about it. Interestingly enough, there are many women who are unhappy in their marriages-so I’ve been told. But in a culture like that, you always have to be praising your husband and working on your marriage. I”m so glad to be out.
But the damage, to me, has been done and it’s rather bad. In truth, other than regular misgivings, there’s nothing wrong with me–even though I began to hate myself. Most of you who read here regularly know that I was one of the few African-Americans in a predominately white congregation and how I’ve talked about the issues of racism that were there. There were many reasons why I left, but that also being one of them. I couldn’t understand why Christians didn’t see all Christians equally–as I had.
But because of the courtship culture at my old church, and not just there, but other churches I’ve belonged to in the past pushing Josh’s books at us, and me being young and wanting to be pleasing to the Lord, but also wanting the perfect marriage, perfect family, I thought formulas worked with God. That if I did A and B like God wanted me to, then he’d give me C.
Along with some broken family dynamics and bad relationships I’ve witnessed others have most of my life, I wanted to be protected from those things. I dind’t want kids out of wedlock. I didn’t want to have multiple partners and be promiscuous. I didn’t want any of those things. But it’s easy to say you promise to remain pure when you’re 12. When you’re 33 going on 34, it’s no longer a since of pride, but quickly becomes a sense of shame, defeat and feeling useless and unattractive.
I don’t focus on my looks, not much at all. I like the way I look, but it’s not my focus. But I would say that before attending my last church, even though I was buying this mess, I was still kind of normal in ways–I had some guy friends, I wasn’t afraid to display my sexuality in healthy ways, I wasn’t afraid to dress my butt off and didn’t care much about what other thought. But I came to this ultra-conservative caucasian church where it seemed like being brown, normal and possessing a healthy sexuality and expression were frowned upon.
So what did I do? I dug deeper (LOL-no pun intended) into this culture thinking that I wasn’t enough and not doing enough. After my eyes were opened that there was something terribly wrong with this system, that it was culturally biased, and only served a certain “type” of people–I began to become angry with God. Why would he ask us all to do something where he was only willing to reward some of us, those of us who were cute, white and young?
In the past two years, I have struggled insanely with lonliness and with singleness and many times I’ve wanted to give up walking this walk. To me, God simply was a bigot–just like the people I was around. Often, when confessing my struggles and simply longing for a husband, people would tell me “maybe God just doesn’t want you married.” or “maybe God wants you all to himself.” or “God is Sovereign and this is what he chooses to do and who he chooses to bless right now.” or I know the situation is unfair, but it’s what God wants. He’s Sovereign.”
I dont even think I know clearly what it means by God’s Sovereignty. For me, and from what I’ve seen, it seems more like God’s hands are tied behind his back. Or that God chooses to bless others, and for no specific reason, other than he’s showering his love on them, and well…not me. I have several African-American female friends back there, and well, most of them have belonged to that congregation 10 years or more. Do you know they’ve never EVER been asked out by ANYONE?
I, myself, realized that was horrendous. These women, and I feel bad for them, will never leave. But their hearts will continue to be broken by these unfair and ridiculous circumstances that do not reflect the heart of God at all. I couldn’t take it, and saw much of this six months in. It took me another year to leave, but I’m glad I left. I”m also glad that the Lord allowed me to suffer in the way that he did and that he did not allow me to marry someone there, because not only is it a courtship culture, but it’s also paternalistic and authoritarian. Now that I know better, well, that’s not the marriage for me.
It’s even more people when people look at me and say you’re so beautiful, I just dont understand why you’re not married. But for me, I think I understand why I’m not married–because of this sh*t. It’s amazing what God will allow you to suffer to teach you some hard and difficult lessons.
I dont know why God chose this time in my life, the time where I want to be settled, where I want a partner, where I want to experince intimacy and love–that he would keep me single while everyone else around me is getting married and starting their families. Sometimes, I think I suck and I’m not happy with who I am. I believe it’s been a huge mistake beliving all this because I feel like these beliefs have practically ruined my life. This year I will be 34, still single, no kids, still a virgin, no prospects in sight. And just honestly, I’m getting to the point where I dont care anymore.
Sometimes, it’s hard to see that God even cares. I try to do as much as possible on my end. I’m trying to recover the normal me–the me who isn’t afraid of men, or who doesn’t think I’m sinning just because part of my cleavage is showing, or because I am, indeed, flirting.
I read Henry Clouds books on dating adn they have been monumental in re-teaching me about what I should know about dating and I follow much of his advice. I am on various online sites, and I also join and meetup with various social groups in the DMV, and I also just get out. But that all gets exhausting. I do smile at men and greet them when I make eye contact with them, and I talk to people all the time. I still talk to myself in the back of my head and worry if I look too desperate or if I am acting too forward to compensate for my discomfort and lack of practice. But it seems the more I practice the better I get.
I try not to focus too much on marriage–but sometimes it’s hard. And honestly, at this point in my life, I just want a nice loving husband. I dont really care if he goes to church or not. But I want him to be a Christian–simply a person who believes Christ died for their sins and believes that God is the Creator and has his convictions.
After all these lists and requirements in these books and talks at our church, it’s no wonder I couldn’t find anyone to meet those standards. They are impossible. I had come to the conclusion that God only wanted families and marriage for caucasians. My friends, they are honorable women like me. They are waiting for marriage like me. But unlike me, I dont think they have the courage to leave and go strike out on their own. They will make great wives and partners–but if they stay, I dont know that they will ever be given that chance.
Being black, sometimes, is hard–especially, in the church, when your church knows nothing about your culture. It’s harder when you are playing by the rules, HARD, and you still don’t win. It’s even harder when you think God doesn’t care, that he favors a particular culture, and cares nothing about you.
I know it’s not true, but sometimes I need convincing. People have said some terrible things to me that have rocked me to the core and it’s hard to shake all of that sometimes. It truly made God seem so hateful to me. And that’s what’s so sad is because when the church misrepresents the heart of God–God tends to take the rap for it.
I would say that I see and know God working hard to restore his broken image in me. He’s showing me why I desired these measures of perfection–in marriage, relationships, church life. I’m convinced that much of fundamentalism is a lack of trust and faith in God and the working of the Holy Spirit in the lives and hearts of believers.
I know I’m not perfect, but I know that somehow, God must love me. I dont know what his plans are and I hope that He has marriage for me soon. I”m tired of walking through life alone. And I’m tired of seeing all of these women, who are no godlier than me (although they may think they are), who are not any more maturer than me, who have no special “thing” about them better than me–boast and brag about how God has chosen to bless them in this season of their lives… I grew tired of seeing it all over FB–every newlywed feeling the need to brag about their new relationship all the time, their new babies, what their husband did that was so amazing for them.
One thing I have come to realize is that with Christians, it seems that marriage and family (having children) is what truly qualifies you as a mature bonafide Christian. And Christian women, espeically, are some of the most horrible people when it comes to sensitivity for those around them who are suffering and hurting.
In my old church, every Sunday night, part of the service would be announcing pregnancies, engagements, upcoming weddings and the help needed. But nothing EVER was announced for single poeple or those strugglin to conceive. Yet, the onus is alwyas put on the one who is sufferin to be the bigger person–to celebrate with those who are celebrating. I know that God calls us to that. But they often forget the other part of that, and that is to mourn with those who are mourning. I knew that there were couples in my congregation who could not conceive, adn everytime some little young blonde skipped up there, elated and bursting open to tell us they were preggers (sometimes, less than a few months after having just been married), I’d look at those whom I knew were suffering and just ache badly for them and even fight back tears.
Constantly, single people are being told not to idolize marriage. But as I’ve said in a post under Kerrin’s story, there’s no way a person is going to be successful in NOT making marriage an idol in a culture that worships and elevates marriage and family to the Nth degree. It simply isn’t fair.
I dont even wish for children anymore and have simply let that dream fall to the wayside because marriage, itself, seems so impossible. Why hope for TWO things that will tear your heart apart. I’d rather just have ONE for the moment. I can’t bear both burdens–they are both far too heavy for me.
See, it’s ALL of this, and broken marriages (I know of a recent courtship marriage that just ended after exactly a year) for many of the problems you all have discussed here at one time or another. I tell people all the time, just because people are getting married through courtships, doesn’t mean this formula works. Nobody knows the suffering that truly happens in these marriages. My church had a women’s retreat recently and I heard that there were all types of confessions about stuff that really sucked in these relationships. I think poeple in the church are good at pretending and putting on a farce. They posture and are always on stage, and nobody tells you what happens when the curtains go down.
I always tell people I am open to meeting men, their single friends, and open to being set up. I dont know how this is going to happen, or if God will even do it. But it really has to be Him because I have really not much that I can do and I can’t make it happen.
Please pray for me. Pray that I will be strong. Pray that I will continue to choose to be honorable because God honors that–and that I would even do so when I dont see any immediate reward. I believe there still is value in these things, and that Josh, on some of his points was right: we should abstain from fornication, we should honor one another and love each other well, we should not be unfair and string a person along making false promises. Those are always still good things. But they are commonsense and dont’ require a formula to live by. Those are things and characteristics we can see clearly in God. And His instructions for how we should live our lives are also clear. We don’t need all this extra crap Josh has wrapped around the clear and concise message God has already given us. I wish I knew that when I was younger. I would have made much different choices.
Thanks for listening to part of my story…Again :mic
kris-
i did share my concerns with josh, and about 5 other pastors when i had a sit-down with them. i shared my concerns about using me in his book, about how male/female relationships were controlled by them, and about several other issues (including moving for educational reasons, which was an important issue for me as well). they all listened and then really didnt say anything to me. they didnt try to correct me or tell me that i was wrong in my thinking. they have never done that to this day. none of them, except greg somerville, apologized either. although, i had never even met greg somerville before that day. and, his apology was the weirdest thing i have ever heard. i was trying to explain to him why i thought it was so weird and grant laymen asked me if i thought he was trying to sollicite sympathy… ya think??? they tried to offer to pay for my plane ticket down to maryland (i live in boston now) and that is pretty much it.
i basically went in there and ruined them for 2 hours and they had nothing to say. but nothing changed and the apology was WEAK WEAK WEAK. so i guess i accomplished nothing, except the catharsis of telling them to their faces that i think they suck on many levels, with zero rebuttal from them.
Kindred
You said “Courtship is a “hot topic” right now and is being debated heavily. All the negative statistics and personal testimonies are hurting the the “courtship movement”. There’s a lot of negative publicity out there. We discussed the fact that “Focus on the Family” has pulled many of their “courtship articles” and “courtship couples’ stories” a few days ago on the blog. Other parachurch ministries are beginning to do the same. I believe courtship is finally on it’s way out, at least within healthy/balanced christendom. Cults, extremists, controlling and fearful folk will always embrace some form of it.”
I hope that you are right. But the thing I wonder is what the aftermath looks like? This is like a nuclear spill clean-up project. This waste has been spilling for what, over 15 years now. It’s going to take a LONG time to clean up this crap. All those who have been hurt by it, who have had stinkin’ thinkin’, who must reshape their thinking and understanding of how God works, about relationships, about marriage, about dating.
This has penetrated the church AT LARGE. How the heck can something this huge be corrected? What do you do with all the casualties? The burn victims? The ones with poison circulating in their bodies? The ones who are dying slowly, and painfully so?
False teaching really is a biot*h. If they think this can be repaired by changing soem instances in a book and a few things here and there–then they are BLIND and IGNORANT. This is huge and bigger than any of us could ever see–even those of us who feel devastated by the aftermath and remnants of such teachings.
Lord, help us! And come quickly!
Courtship is STILL a “hill to die on” for SGM. As you say, Kris, Josh Harris has got “a great way with words.” Maybe he has come up with way to save the “movement” and continue to promote his books and SGM.
NLR,
the loss you feel.. feeling like someone took your youth away from you. experiences. failures. joys. i am keenly aware of how that feels. you sound like an educated, articulate woman of conviction. do yourself a favor, follow your gut.
Jimmy–
You just made me cry. You know my heart–that’s exactly how I feel. It’s all too real when someone else writes it and you see it before you. I will take your advice and follow my gut. Sometimes I feel rebellion in my heart and I don’t want to rebel against what God has told me, on His own. I know that I would only hurt myself. But I have to figure out how to follow my gut, and not just be spiteful because I’m mad as hell, hurt and angry. Thank you also for the compliments–they are truthful. I am educated, articulate and smart. I’m funny too and a goof ball (probably more often that I should be, but who cares). Thanks again.
A thousand e-hugs to you NLR! I’m a 30 something woman in a similar boat. While I wasn’t in an SGM church, my family used religion in controlling way that seems very similar to what people on this blog experienced with SGM.
As for the future husband, here’s my approach. Take advice on finding a man like gum. Chew on it. Think about it. Then spit out what your gut doesn’t agree with. You are still young. The world is still yours. You have an amazing future ahead of you. I fully believe I’ll get married and have a kid one day and I know you will too. In the meantime, it is fun telling my married girlfriend about fabulous trips I’m planning while she’s changing dirty diapers. :D
Bravo Jimmy –
It’s like trying to keep someone from drowning by ensuring they never go near water. It ain’t gonna work, because they WILL get their feet wet one day. Then what? Reminds me of this post that Kris wrote some time back about Mahaney Ladies and the Truman Show
I’ve mentioned this before, but a few weeks ago, I actually went back and re-read both I Kissed Dating Goodbye and Boy Meets Girl.
Like 5years, I too thought that Josh Harris comes across like a very sincere young man in both books, with his deep desire to honor God. I even agreed with a good deal of what he says about the importance of making purity a priority and being intentional about that.
Where I differ is in the “guard your heart” teachings.
It’s actually quite difficult to articulate what’s so problematic about the “guard your heart” stuff because it sounds good. It sounds right, to avoid allowing oneself to develop deep affections for a person of the opposite sex without knowing whether or not one can marry that person.
But then again, is it actually wrong to love someone, to passionately care for someone, without eventually marrying him or her?
Check out the following excerpt from I Kissed Dating Goodbye:
This snippet is taken from the opening pages of I Kissed Dating Goodbye. And while it makes for a compelling “hook” to draw in the Christian who’s sincere about purity and holiness and compel him to continue reading, I think it’s really nothing but a bunch of extra-biblical hogwash.
For one thing, Josh Harris makes it clear later in the book that he himself never “went all the way” with his previous girlfriends. So, unlike scripture – which makes it clear that extramarital physically intimate relationships DO cause harm to the believer – Josh MUST be talking about emotional relationships, if he can cite his own personal experiences and portray them as wrong and as having negative consequences, as he wonders about what his previous girlfriends might say on his wedding day.
He’s clearly indicating in this opening segment of IKDG that emotionally intimate (rather than physically intimate) guy-girl relationships are somehow wrong…and that they somehow detract from what a person has to give to his eventual husband or wife.
The idea that one’s “heart” is a finite entity…that one’s affections are made up of some pre-determined and limited amount…the idea that one can “give away pieces” of one’s heart – this is just stupid. Besides not being ANYWHERE in scripture, this way of looking at relationships can be refuted by any of us who have actually cared romantically for someone other than the person we eventually went on to marry. ANYBODY who has actually had a boyfriend or girlfriend prior to our spouse – well, all of us know that our feelings for that boy or that girl didn’t in any way detract from “what we had left to give” to our eventual spouse.
Love is not some fixed quantity.
Saying that you’ve “given parts of your heart away” that you can somehow never “get back,” and that somehow this takes away from what you have left to give to a spouse is about as crazy as saying that if I enjoy movies and see a dozen movies, I will have less appreciation and less enjoyment left to experience when I see my thirteenth movie.
Or…if I have one child and love that child with all my heart, I will somehow have “less love” to give to my second or third child.
Josh Harris has kids now – a few kids, I think. Certainly he has to know by now that love is not a fixed quantity.
Yes, the Bible has things to say about engaging in sex outside of marriage. “Becoming one flesh” with someone other than one’s spouse is depicted as sinful and harmful and dangerous.
But this “guard your heart” stuff?
It’s not in the Bible.
And anyone who has been in more than one relationship knows that it’s bogus.
In Boy Meets Girl, Josh takes on a whole other level of weird, when he takes this “guard your heart” principle and attempts to give methods for how to avoid “giving away pieces of your heart.” He advises the couple who enter into a courtship to avoid certain topics…avoid saying certain things…to avoid sharing certain thoughts and feelings until they have gotten engaged.
Yet that’s stupid, too. After all, we can all think of lots of broken engagements. If this “guard your heart” garbage is really God’s wisdom, then Josh ought to take it to the logical conclusion and advocate that nobody share anything personal until after the wedding day. That’s the ONLY way to truly ensure that one will arrive at the altar without having “given away a part of his heart.”
Can you just imagine being a couple in a courtship, earnestly trying to follow Josh’s methods? How awkward and self-conscious would it be, to have to filter every thought and word through the sieve of whether or not it’s “too personal”? How nerve-wracking would it be to have to attempt to get close to someone and develop feelings for him or her…only…you can’t get too close! Because you might accidentally unguard your heart, might accidentally “give away” a part of your heart and thus have less to “give” to your future spouse!
Like I said – the whole thing is bogus. Stupid. Downright ridiculous when it is taken to its logical conclusion.
And it can only make people tense and weird and freaked out when they actually interact with each other.
No Longer Reformed (NLR),
I **LOVE** how you “tell it,” girl! :wink:
God loves it, too! Keep pouring your heart out to Him and keeping it “real” as you share with others.
God is using the people like you and the stories like yours to “clean up the crap.” Why do you think you feel it so strongly and passionately!?! :wink:
You are being used by God, my dear, lovely, sweet, young (yes, I said young), black sister. Hang in there, He WILL NOT forsake you!!!!! You have your whole life ahead of you. Thirty-something is *NOT* old!! There’s absolutely no reason for you to feel desperate. You’re a WONDERFUL girl!! Don’t sell yourself short…that’s a lie straight from the pit of hell.
Trust God. Relax. You’re doing the right things. Don’t push it. “Go with your gut”, like Jimmy suggested. And I know of some great “success stories” with Eharmony, but it’s not for everyone.
Hang in there! We’re here when you need a shoulder to cry on or feel you need to scream and shout because you’re mad as hell. And you had BETTER NOT forget to come back here and share when “Mr. Right” finally “walks” into your life (which, btw, is ALWAYS when you least expect it).
Love from your “white” sister,
Kindred
jimmy,
Has Josh removed your story from subsequent editions of his book? Or was this conversation fairly recent?
One thing I’ve noticed about SGM leaders/pastors is that when they are confronted with their abject missteps and mistakes, it’s hard for them to take full responsibility and acknowledge – particularly at the upper “apostolic” levels – that they missed the boat.
I remember listening to the sound file of the reinstatement of Mark Lauterbach in San Diego, after his original de-gifting a few months before. It was crazy to hear the “apostle” (Steve Shank? I can’t remember for sure) dance around how they hadn’t actually gotten it wrong when they de-gifted Lauterbach originally. They’d “heard from God” accurately then…and were “hearing from God” accurately now…even though they’d clearly changed their decision completely. The original decision hadn’t been wrong…and their subsequent (opposite) decision was also right.
It was actually embarrassing, to hear this guy try to dance around the obvious elephant in the room.
I think a full and open and detailed acknowledgment of these guys’ mistakes is so hard for them because they are worried that it will make people question their authority. That’s why they sit mute or spout platitudes or vague roundabout apologies when confronted with their undeniable wrongdoings.
Michelle Dupray,
Welcome to the blog. I like your attitude! :D
A Kindred Spirit: Publishing doesn’t work that way. The publisher can reprint it as many times as they want (per the original contract) and the author will go along with it, and still get some proceeds. SGM doesn’t get anything from this except positive publicity, which (naturally) they aren’t going to turn down.
There’s more going on here than meets the eye, folks. This isn’t Josh being malicious. This is Josh being well-meaning, but stupid.