Why It’s So Much More…
July 1, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
A commenter named Katie posted the following:
So it sounds like you all are contradicting yourselves when you talk about getting away from your own emotionally or physically abusive or abandoning husbands, but then telling Megan she needs to do everything she can to get back to her husband – even when you all haven’t done this yourselves! Give her a break!
Here is my response to Katie:
You bring up a very good point, and I can see why it would seem like some of us are talking out of both sides of our mouths here.
I can’t speak for everyone, but without the Sovereign Grace Ministries element, I’m pretty sure a good many of us wouldn’t have much of an opinion one way or the other about Megan and Kerrin’s situation, except to grieve with them and wish that they could salvage their marriage and keep their family together.
But the SGM system has its paw prints all over their relationship. Josh Harris made them the poster children for courtship when he wrote at length about their relationship, even quoting from Megan’s journal, where she detailed how she wasn’t interested in Kerrin initially, thinking she “deserved better,” until a friend urged her to think instead of Kerrin’s “godly character.” Throughout the years, Kerrin has been spoken of glowingly on Bob K’s website and Megan’s blog, where she detailed what a wonderful husband he was. As recently as a couple of years ago, Megan talked about how Kerrin had kept her “fed and watered” at some conference, even as he took care of the kids and helped with the worship. Kerrin was selected to attend the Pastors College. Megan and Kerrin were care group leaders.
Pretty much, you couldn’t get more “in” in SGM than Kerrin and Megan were.
Historically, for SGM women, submission and following your husband’s leadership no matter what have been big deals. Carolyn Mahaney has been held up as the example to emulate, and she and CJ have made it widely known that she “serves” CJ by never ever ever ever turning him down for sex, even when she’d spent the day vomiting or was in incredible pain right before a hip replacement surgery.
Many MANY women have been counseled that the Bible demands that they return to their spouses, even when there had been actual physical abuse.
Up until now, as far as I know, there’s been no escape clause for SGM women because their husbands shut them out or didn’t talk to them or were just plain old asses.
Now, you can think of that what you will. I happen to have mixed feelings about SGM’s divorce policy. I think sending a wife back to a spouse who has abused her demonstrates an appalling lack of insight into the psychological dynamics at work in an abusive marriage. I’m actually with you in that if Kerrin has truly abandoned Megan emotionally, there ought to be some room, some grace, for her to take some sort of action to reclaim her life.
But – and this is why Megan and Kerrin’s story is so significant – my belief (and your belief) would fly in the face of everything SGM has EVER EVER EVER taught to women, everything SGM has EVER EVER EVER counseled women, prior to Megan.
So I say there needs to be some sort of open declaration from the top of the SGM organization. If they are going to make an exception to the counsel and the accommodations they give for their poster child SGM wife, whose courtship got every SGM Seal Of Approval™ and was featured so prominently in Josh Harris’ Boy Meets Girl, then they need to apologize boldly, in no uncertain terms, to EVERY SINGLE WIFE who was ever sent back into a marital situation where similar circumstances prevailed.
No matter what you think of Kerrin’s “side” or Megan’s “side,” you have to understand that many of us have come to care about this situation not just because of the 7-person family that is – to our sadness – dissolving. It’s so much more than that.
It’s about:
- The failures of the courtship system. If the spouse-finding process is constrained and constricted and people are taught to pay little heed to their emotions and to attraction and to just that inexplicable gut-wrenching pull you get when you’ve met your soul mate, and instead reduce things down to roles, then once one spouse’s ideas about how he or she fulfills their roles changes, so does the entire basis of the marriage.
. - SGM’s definition of what makes a “believer” or a “godly” person. Apparently, you’re über-godly as long as you buy into all things SGM, but once you start reading Kierkegaard and start wondering aloud if SGM employs cultic tactics, you become an unbeliever.
. - SGM’s apparently pragmatic approach to policy-making. Again, if it’s OK for Megan to file for divorce and not “follow her husband’s leading” by moving where he wants them to move, then SGM owes lots and lots of women a big fat apology for the false counsel they gave in the past. I mean, this has to represent a policy change, right?
. - Special treatment for the guys at the top, if this situation doesn’t represent a policy change.
So, Katie, that’s why so many of us here seem to be talking out of both sides of our mouth – it’s because right now, Megan’s SGM authorities are also talking out of both sides of their mouths!
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Kris–
Great post. I think this is very helpful, indeed. And I think it’s concise and brings the situation back around to it’s original intent for discussion: and that’s the inequality and over-involvement and control in the situation by SGM. Period. Hopefully people will come here and go back to the original discussion about why this is bothersome and leave the details of the marriage and picking it apart alone. I have been guilty of such. I’m moving on. Maybe we can keep it quite general here without going back to picking apart their letters and details of their marriage. I can see that being a good thing from here on out. But that’s just my opinion.
Speaking of cases of abuse where women were being beaten up and told to go back to their husbands, would some of you mind telling me about some of these cases. No names or anything is important, just what happened and what was done about it. I wasn’t a member at SGM, but at an SGM-friendly church. But I dont think the pastors or elders at my old church would give such advice and encourage a woman to go back to an abusive husband. They’ve got some serious things wrong with their views on men and women, but IDK, the advice they have given in some other issues in marriages would tell me that they wouldn’t recommend this.
I agree.
Excellent post Kris. Perfectly articulated. Thank you.
NLR,
I believe SGM’s counsel has been along the lines of, if an abusive husband has appeared to repent to the point where his SGM pastor believes he has changed, and if the husband wants to continue in the marriage, the wife is obligated to go back.
I think new commenters –like Katie– see SGMsurvivors as a monolith, all in agreement (i guess) about everything, but the truth is that there are at least as many opinions here as there are commenters. On complicated issues, I personally have several opinions as I wrestle through the particulars.
The most glaring example of the way SGM leads abused women is Esther’s on sgmrefuge. My own story is another example.
Yes!, YES!, *YES*!…
Thank you, Kris. Excellent post!
And thank you, God, for the “gift of words” and “heart” that you’ve given Kris. May her words always be pleasing to you and reflect your heart for your people.
Acme’s right. There are MANY different opinions here. And I think most of us like it that way. :D
Kris–
I guess, then, it’s easier for a pastor to believe someone has changed, believing that he can see inside the heart of a person, huh? And it might be easier for you to be the one to believe an abuser has changed and is truly repentant when you’re not the one getting your a** kicked at home? Am I right?
Trust is personal and individual. And I would never encourage a woman to go back to anyone who abused/abuses her. Not that I don’t believe in repentance or heart change. But people who abuse others, especially physically, they have a long road to recovery and much therapy is needed. It’s not a simple case of others pointing out your wrong and you feeling “sorry” for the pain you caused someone. Part of being a physical abuser is your lack of control, your inability to deal wtih your anger and emotions, your narcicissm and some other things. Repentance and being truly sorry for such actions isn’t going to necessarily change those behaviors. There is something psychologically wrong there. Psychological change takes a long time, especially in adults.
How about letting the women decide when they can trust dude again and letting them return on their on will versus being coerced by a bunch of yahoo’s who do not have to walk that road. My mother and family was physically abused by my father for many years. Even as a little girl, I was very confused by the other adults in my mother’s life who always encouraged her to go back. My father didn’t change because he saw some amazing deficit in his own soul. He changed because we got older, stood up for ourselves and threatened to seriously hurt him if he ever put his hands on us again. He knew we were not playing with him. And so his countenance changed because he was beginning to meet his match and the anger from those whom he was abusing and he realized it was nothing to ignore. We live in peace because we have forgiven him, but we never let down our boundaries because he still has those tendencies. But we shut him down fast when he starts to lean towards loosing control. My life and my siblings, and my mothers would have been terribly different had other people not encouraged her to do such a thing. After all, she was a very weak woman. Very much a child and she had no real boundaries, esteem or will to truly fight for herself and could not recognize the amazing value she has in the Lord. That’s why I can be as gentle as a lamb, but you come at me and I can tear you up like a lion. I cannot tolerate abuse.
Acme–
Is Esther the woman who was at Chesapeake and whose husband was abusing her, he was on drugs and all that stuff. And the church didn’t help her, give her food, shelter, etc…
I’ll also have to go and read your story as well. I’m not sure if I read it already.
#8…I like it that way! :D
Eric NS, You are probably right that someone who could believe that she would be responsible for the financial obligations on a home that was not in her name would also believe that her husband would keep her children in Scotland forever (your words, not mine) or feel slighted because he didn’t get citizenship papers for her, too. This sort of inflamed rhetoric and fear mongering is part of the SGM system. Perhaps we could help dispel those fears, rather than feeding them?
Just making sure it gets repeated in this thread. :wink:
Here’s Esther’s Story
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/15/from-esther-in-chesapeake/
My story does not involve me getting physically abused (but does involve child abuse — as well as emotional, spiritual, and verbal abuse). It does involve SGM counseling and church discipline — for those of us much lower on the “food-chain” to use DB’s word picture.
To all of you who have questioned the decision to post Megan’s story…
I had very mixed feelings about it. It felt weird and gross (sorry for the junior high lingo, but that’s about as precise as I can get) to continue to wade into such personal waters. To me, Kerrin’s story seemed to be more theoretical, with a bit more focus on the larger picture.
I also was bothered by the fact that Megan did not get in touch with me herself but instead chose to have an SGM pastor function as go-between. I didn’t have an email address or any other way to contact her directly. She also has chosen (up to this point, anyway) not to interact with people who had questions for her. While Kerrin has been open and has pretty much responded to just about every question that was put to him (no matter how harsh or rude), Megan provided a statement and that was it.
Frankly, Megan’s “side” felt very scrubbed to me. Of course I have no way of proving this, but given the experiences of many others who have come through SGM, I’d be willing to bet that she had input and editing from her SGM authorities and maybe even SGM’s legal counsel. Either that, or Megan has been so immersed in the SGM mindset that even when she writes about deeply personal elements of her life, she’s able to employ all sorts of church-protecting filters. I know I’ve beat this horse to death, but I still can’t get around certain turns of phrase, such as her statement that she met “her husband” (she never once referred to Kerrin by his name) at a “local evangelical church.” Those 3 little words were packed with so many implications! As I said yesterday,
Then there was all that Megan did NOT say. Again, to repost a comment:
Pretty much, I think SGM Survivors was used yesterday to post a very carefully crafted version of Megan’s “side” that served to set her up as a completely innocent victim, consequently deflecting attention away from the larger picture (Kerrin’s claims of SGM’s cultic practices), protecting SGM’s image, and perpetuating the claims that this divorce, should it come to fruition, would be “biblical.” Again, I’ll never be able to prove that Megan had the input of other people, people likely intent on protecting SGM’s reputation, but my gut says she did.
But here’s the thing – if I hadn’t posted Megan’s story as she requested, that would have been unfair. And dishonest.
Besides, several commenters had posted (in comments here) the link to Megan’s own blog, where she’d linked to the pdf of her story. Moreover, at least two commenters had copied and pasted into the comments the entire post. Given that people were going to discuss her story anyway, and given that the SGM pastor had told me this,
it seemed to me that Megan was not wanting any further input on her own blog from people here.
So I posted her story as she had (through her go-between) requested.
I’m sorry that many of you also joined me in feeling yucky and gross about it. But in the end, it seemed like the only thing to do.
One further note, and then I’m done talking about the specifics of what Megan shared.
I’ve gotten enough email from people connected to Megan and Kerrin’s situation that I feel pretty confident that there are several key things (including one intensely personal betrayal on Megan’s part) that Megan (or her authorities/editors) conveniently left out, and that is why I might have come across as unfairly skeptical towards her.
Intensely personal betrayal. Wow. Again, I guess this proves that none of us here will ever know the full story. That’s why we can’t really comment so intensely about either side. Because there will always be a censoring of info. But I can see why if you know something like that, Kris, but can’t disclose, that you’d feel the way you do.
Just to clarify, “intensely personal betrayal” does NOT refer to any sort of adulterous behavior. Rather, it has to do with other ways in which Megan was influenced by her parents to do something life-altering that was against Kerrin’s expressed wishes for their family.
Normal, healthy parents don’t control their kids like SGM and those like them. SGM controls everything, and I mean EVERYTHING!
They go WAY BEYOND the counsel one would expect from the parent of an adult child.
It was the “control issues” that triggered my first red flag. And they boast the “sovereignty of God.” I don’t get it. The two cannot coexist. :scratch
The policy of not allowing kids to see a grandmother simply because she supports her son and no longer attends the same church is a prime example of cultic SHUNNING behavior. Shunning is damaging to the shunned and the shunner. Jesus didn’t shun YOU. Cut it out — build a relationship of loving respect and welcoming kindness because of the fabulous fact that every one of you love those grandchildren with all your hearts, regardless of the situation with their parents. They are not pawns. There is not a spiritual hierarchy in grandparenthood.
Kris, I asked this yesterday. What was this go-between-pastors explanation of why he was a go-between between two adults. That kind of thing really set off some bells for me. She is a grown woman as you are.
Stunned,
Here was the pastor’s explanation (edited to remove his wife’s name):
I wonder how she knows that this pastor has been in contact with you before? Can’t imagine this would come up in a regular conversation. Especially since CJ deemed that there would be no acknowledgement of this site by the pastors.
“3.SGM’s apparently pragmatic approach to policy-making. Again, if it’s OK for Megan to file for divorce and not “follow her husband’s leading” by moving where he wants them to move, then SGM owes lots and lots of women a big fat apology for the false counsel they gave in the past. I mean, this has to represent a policy change, right?
”
No policy change at all. In fact, in most of these topdown institutions, that call themselves churches, the rules do not apply to the leadership. Never did. One reason most do not know this is because of the hierarchy, they rarey see the inside stuff. And the system has been designed that way. To question is to sin. You are to believe your leaders have good intentions. period. Anything else is to doubt God.
The biggest sin Kerrin committed, in their eyes, was to question the system. They will not say that but their actions prove it.
The internet is changing all this as now folks have a media outlet to tell their side. And that is a bigger sin to the institutional system than anything.
So, the bottom line is that the rules they have taught concerning women, do not apply to specific women.
BTW: Carolyn Mahaney makes her husband out to be a cad if she says she does not turn him down for sex when she is ill. He actually intiates sex when she is ill?
Matt –
You said,
Uh, yeah. Apparently. According to what they say.
I said this on another thread, but I think the Mahaneys enaged in this TMI bit of over-sharing because CJ believed it would make their marriage seem hot and himself seem like some sort of insatiable love stud. But the truth is, it makes him sound like he has problems and doesn’t love his wife the way he ought to. In my thinking, no normal man who truly cares about his wife is going to be feelin’ frisky if he KNOWS she’s in pain or otherwise uncomfortable. No normal husband would be able to get any sort of real fulfillment out of that kind of escapade, unless he has some sort of issue, where giving someone else pain doesn’t take away from his own pleasure.
If you know what I mean.
Stunned,
I think this particular pastor might be a bit of a rogue, in that he doesn’t seem to feel quite the same need to obey directives.
I’d like to add that he and I have had a couple of exchanges, and he’s struck me as someone who is honestly grappling with at least some of SGM’s issues. I’ve told him this, and I mean it – I understand his difficult position. If you’re a pastor who has been raised up in the SGM system, to where so many aspects of SGM’s culture have been long-intertwined with your concept of “the gospel,” and then you reach a place where you have differences of opinion with your SGM upline (to borrow an Amway term), you’re pretty much trapped. Not only do you have to figure out what’s SGM and what’s Jesus, but you also have to face the very real possibility that if you press for change against the wishes of your upline, you might find yourself without a livelihood. And for many of these guys, there’s not much else they could do to bring in enough of a paycheck to afford housing and a stay-at-home wife.
That’s tough.
And this is regardless of any fear that the wife may have concerning physical safety for her or the children. And it doesn’t matter if she feels it is unhealthy for the children to be exposed to their father’s unhealthy way of dealing with the slightest little bump in the road in his life. For her to have this fear, she is NOT trusting God and it is SIN.
The pastors are not going to be there in the home when the husband starts yelling and being threatening. At this point, the wife is to call the police. And she won’t – you know why? Because it’s just yelling & threatening, but the husband will then have an arrest record and could lose his job. And THEN where will the family be? The pastors don’t have to live with all of this.
So instead of them being apart until it is safe for the whole family to be together, until everyone has counseling that works, until boundaries are recognized and respected, the wife is told SHE IS IN SIN BECAUSE SHE IS AFRAID. And NOTHING changes. Try living like that and watching your children lose faith in God.
So SGM’s policies are different for the elite – when their daughter is “afraid”, they are there – they step in – something is done. She is not told that she is in sin & not trusting God because she is afraid. But a wife that has the very real possibility of abuse reoccurring to her & her children is told she is in sin because she is afraid.
Kris,
Great post and so incredibly insightful. It’s never ceases to amaze me how someone who spent such a brief time in SGM continues to call things out with such accuracy!! (and to critics of the blogs, sorry, but I DO believe that this blog has done far more good than harm) I remember crying in front of my computer the first night this blog was brought to my attention. I couldn’t believe that others saw what Wallace had been seeing and trying to communicate to me for a very long time. Although not quite within the royalty of SGM, (sister and hubby were and still are) I could relate somewhat to Megan’s side. It’s almost impossible to imagine that these leaders you’ve grown to love, serve and even defend can actually be so wrong. It took me years to see it and it wasn’t until I read Wild at Heart that I began to understand that this man I was married to was not so crazy after all, that his “wildness” was God-given and a VERY GOOD THING! God intended men to lead their families, (which I believe is what Kerrin truly wants to do) but He never intended for them to follow the warped road of SGM and all it’s sick and twisted ways that THEY MAKE UP AS THEY GO!! He never meant for men to be humiliated and told “it was for their sanctification” by other men who were trying to break them and saw their independence as a threat. I think so much of what these leaders do is motivated out of fear. What a way to live.
I do think that this story is about SGM abuse, and obviously not in the same way that was exposed in our story, but the abuse of control and manipulation. Abuse in the sense that you betray your husbands trust and were brought up thinking this is the right thing to do. (I did it too, so I’m not without mercy for Megan, believe me) how is it not abusive to try and strip people of their own instincts and reasoning skills? To raise young men who are encouraged to spy on one another? (this happened to my oldest more times than I can count) I’m sorry, but IMHO, this is abusive but unless you’ve walked this out and have left or been kicked out of this ministry, it’s almost impossible to understand what it’s like.
Megan & Kerrin, we serve a God of hope, it’s not too late. God can restore what the locusts have eaten. Praying for this situation.
I’ll be praying for him. God sometimes knocks us off our horses and blinds us. Sometimes He gently takes the blinders off in a dim room. I hope for each of us that it is the gentle blinders coming off in a dim room.
Ellie said,
Oh Ellie, I am so sorry if you have had anything like this in your own experience! :( Truly truly sorry!
SGMers out there who are quietly reading and tracking with us, please go back and once more read what Ellie has described. THIS is exactly why Megan and Kerrin’s story should matter to each and every one of you – NOT so that you can rubberneck at the trainwreck of their family, but so that you can call upon your SGM authorities to change the destructive counsel they’ve been giving women for years and apologize to the women whom they’ve sent back into a life of fear, all the while accusing those women of being in sin because they were fearful.
Like I said, I’ve been grossed out by the feeling that we’re gawking into what should be nobody else’s business, but sometimes, painful and private stuff intersects with policy, and to talk about and change the policy, you have to know the details of what’s private.
Now go and use the discrepencies in this private situation for something good. Go demand answers of your pastors. And if satisfactory answers aren’t forthcoming, don’t just slink away. Keep pressing for change. It’s not right that a celebrity pastor’s daughter gets a level of support and comfort that has been denied to so many other women. Either their policies are good across the board for everyone, or they’re good for no one.
NLR in the previous topic, you are right, some of my words (like using “everyone”) are a little too sweeping. Sometimes, I get carried away. Please forgive me.
Rose #12, I would definitely like to be someone to help dispel those fears, as you put it. I really would. The fears that I described are normal, everyday fears that anyone could feel, whether they are part of SGM or not, or a Christian or not.
[This rest of this is not directed at you in particular, Rose] But I disagree with the premise that her fears are necessarily caused by the “SGM system”. I’ve read all of the arguments here in favor of the perspective that the SGM system is behind everything that happens to every SGMer and every SGM church. But I believe that if it weren’t for presuppositions about SGM, a person could reasonably reach different conclusions or at least be able to admit to the existence of other possibilities. That is why I continue to advocate more balanced views. But I know that someone will accuse me of having the opposite presuppositions in favor of SGM because I’m still brainwashed.
It was really sad to see Gene Prince post on here yesterday about his own experience in SGM [apparently as a former pastor, as he used past tense] and then be savaged because it didn’t line up with the presupposition that all SGM pastors are bad. Why would I come to that conclusion, you might ask? Because it was said that, as an SGM pastor, of course he would not have been abused. He was actually part of the problem. It was said that, if he could have only been a peon in his own congregation, he would have realized how truly evil he really was.
Well, I understand that Irv was an former SGM pastor who was abused yet no one accuses him of having been of a vast SGM conspiracy prior to him suffering abuse. But he would have had to be, because all SGM pastors are evil. And FSGP, too. And the pastors who “got Shanked” have been abused but I haven’t heard it said that they deserved it because they were evil SGM pastors. [Nothing against you Irv and FSGP.] And everyone believes these stories and give them the benefit of the doubt, but because they were abused, they weren’t typical SGM pastors, but Gene Prince wasn’t abused, so he is a typical, evil SGM pastor. So, the only logical conclusion is, if you’ve been abused, you are legit. If not, you’re brainwashed. Or just plain stupid. This seems like a very reasonable conclusion to draw from what I read. But if it’s not a reasonable conclusion, then maybe the data that I’m using is flawed and could use more balance? The kind of thinking that savaged Gene Prince is wrong, but few (if any) are willing to challenge it.
Being balanced and reasonable does not diminish the pain and suffering expressed here. On the contrary — I strongly believe that it would legitimize that suffering in ways that you can’t begin to imagine, that it would actually make it stand out all the more against the backdrop of the very people who may be guilty of causing the problems that you write about.
Let’s not exchange evil for evil. It doesn’t do any good to pray for those that persecute you, and then turn around and exact your vengeance.
I was called in for jury duty two years ago. The case involved was about child molestation. When that was announced, the pool of possible jurists didn’t look like they felt very well, inluding me. I mean, who wants to sit in a room where such horrible testimony will be heard? Who wants to hear about the raping of a little child? Fortunately, the case was handled without a trial. The relief in the room of jurists was palpable.
My point: none of us want to deal with the specifics of molested children, abused wives, or broken marriages. The deatails are tragic. None of like feeling the pain when we read of a victim’s feelings and experiences. Most of us don’t even want to blog on the subject of SGM. We only do it because we love the people who are so deceived by a broken, controlling system of church government.
However, if we don’t keep these issues in the public eye, who will? SGM despises any type of mess. Anything that stalls their well-oiled machine is considered a bother. Brush it away or disicpline it. Don’t clean it up.
So, no matter how messy, how emotional, how gross, the truth needs to be told so that others can be made aware of what is happening. They can then choose to stay or leave, based on information they are finally allowed to be made aware of. There is a reason that sinful things like to hide in the dark. Shine the light on them and they are suppose to look sickening, yucky, gross…this is part of the process, painful though it feels.
Gene Prince wasn’t savaged. He joined the discussion (if I remember correctly…I wasn’t able to track with everything all day, as it was pretty busy) by posting something contrary, and then people disagreed with him.
How is that “savaging” him?
Eric NS, I can appreciate that you’re trying to work through things, but I find your continued arguments just sort of…wearying? I mean, what exactly are you wanting to get from us here? If most of what you do is about objecting to people’s “faulty logic” and trying to poke holes in what we say, then how are you being any more nuanced than the typical commenter here?
I’ve already established that I tend to see SGM in cultic terms, and unless someone AT LEAST acknowledges some of the more obvious issues – like SGM’s problematic pyramid-style zero-accountability authority structure – I’m going to think that they are unwilling to acknowledge ANY of the truths that are staring them in the face.
So, I will probably continue to paint you with a broad brush until you quit your hole-poking attempts and start seeming like you’re truly open-minded rather than just defensive of your organization.
Here’s a question for you – do you think SGM needs to change anything? If so, what would that be? And why?
Eric NS, it’s weird how differently we read the same exchange. I thought Gene was very rude himself and that the response to him was stern but not “savage”. He said there was no caste system at his SGM church (no food chain) — this is highly unlikely given the SGM polity and practice, but it’s likely as a pastor to be — perhaps — unaware of how it feels in the trenches. This is NOT about abuse necessarily.
Eric NS said, “NLR in the previous topic, you are right, some of my words (like using “everyone”) are a little too sweeping. …I’ve read all of the arguments here in favor of the perspective that the SGM system is behind everything that happens to every SGMer and every SGM church.”
Hmmmm, any chance that your “everyone” repentance was shortlived? ;)
Eric NS said, “Well, I understand that Irv was an former SGM pastor who was abused yet no one accuses him of having been of a vast SGM conspiracy prior to him suffering abuse.”
Eric NS, I am afraid you have said this without reading ALL the comments where I have taken Irv, Jim, FSGP and MANY others to task for what they may have done during their time in SGM. I believe you made the accusation above without having read all those post of mine. But I have to say, it stinks to be accused of not doing the very thing I’ve actually done. It really does. You have no idea of the many things in my heart toward past and present leaders in SGM and you have no idea the hurt/repentance and reconiliation that has taken place between the people I have mentioned. Please reconsider this ugly accusation you made. And please let me know your response.
Eric NS said, “But he would have had to be, because all SGM pastors are evil.”
Eric NS, I have NEVER read any one person EVER say such a thing. Please go find that and tell us who said it so we can address this. If not, please seek why you are making such sweeping statements against the people here who are trying to do what they believe God has called them to do.
I guess I am used to people coming in here and saying our hearts are dark and evil and horrible. I am NOT used to someone accusing us of actually doing something we have/haven’t done.
Eric NS said, “And everyone believes these stories and give them the benefit of the doubt.”
Everyone? Everyone? And how do you know what everyone believes?
“And the pastors who “got Shanked” have been abused but I haven’t heard it said that they deserved it because they were evil SGM pastors.”
Just because you haven’t heard it said, doesn’t mean it wasn’t said. It just means that you didn’t hear it.
I don’t understand how you can apologize for making sweeping statements and in the same post do the exact same thing. (Actually, I know how you can do it as I probably do the exact same thing. I’d just like you to please be a bit more careful when you do it. I believe that you are referencing ONE poster here. One. If I am wrong I am open to correction. But please don’t paint everyone here with the same brush. I can’t imagine you would like it.)
Quote from “An open letter to those who have experienced abuse at the hands of religion”…
You can read the entire letter here…
http://www.goddiscussion.com/3722/an-open-letter-to-those-who-have-experienced-abuse-at-the-hands-of-religion/#comments
Eric NS,
I don’t think my former SGM pastors are evil. I loved them & I miss who they used to be. I DO think that the SGM system that they follow thinking it is the TRUE Gospel of JESUS Christ IS evil.
Felt like this needed to be said again, too…
Eric NS,
Gene Prince is a man who chose to comment here. I think the word you used “savaged” is a bit much to swallow.
Lives have been savaged, families have been savaged, my daughter’s faith has been savaged.
Have you challenged the leadership about that?
Eric NS –
Just thought I should clarify, as many here have different perspectives and opinions.
To say that SGM Pastors are evil is too broad and sweeping, and inaccurate. I agree. They are all sold over to the SGM systems at different levels, just as we were at some time sold over to the SGM brand. I do not know their motives, however one would wish that the path of carnage would be more apparent to said pastors.
I do not think that any Pastors in SGM wake up thinking of how they can break a marriage, or help to bring unnecessary pain and suffering. I have spent too much personal time with a good number of these men to believe that. However, I have no doubt, and from the same personal time and proximity, that there is the overriding belief, priority, and mandate of; what is good for the SGM system, is good for the SGM gospel.
Borrowing from Dave Harveys statements of preserving “Forward momentum,” it seems that
when one ends up going against the SGM grain, there is quite an SGM force there to encounter them. With so many men desiring to, and in this order, protect the SGM Gospel, protect the pastor as part of said gospel, which includes keeping his momentum going, compliance is destined to become the singular issue for the member. Feelings, friendship, and fairness can and have become secondary issues.
It is part of why CJ reinforces the “suffering” and “difficulties” of christian life.
George Washington once said –
Being part of the SGM force does not absolve SGM Pastors from their actions. They are doing what they may believe is Gods purpose and priority. Does not make them evil, and yet they are, as supporters and propagators, still part of a problem.
In regard to conspiracy’s, again, I do not think SGM Pastors are considering how to get someone, but rather how to best position themselves to protect the system and its momentum, for the sake of the SGM gospel. This is not so much a conspiracy, but a posture of self preservation that does require secrecy at times, as well as some sacrifices of membership.
Finally, a conspiracy would require a lot more planning, education, and specific types of intelligence than I believe exist in the collective SGM higher ups. Not a criticism, but an observation. You see, it is apparent from this blog, and from years of membership that SGM is still changing, morphing, and figuring things out for themselves. Constant change as they say. If they had the chops for a conspiracy,
the theological foundations would have been settled a long time ago.
So we have a bunch of well intentioned, perhaps mislead, guys who are still figuring things out, that have made their growth a priority over certain safetys, who speak with the authority of God and ask for obedience.
Not necessarily evil in intent, but dangerous by design.
Not saying conspiracy, rather seeing their desire for self preservation.
As a collective force, a dangerous servant, and a fearful master.
IMO
Kindred,
Wow, that quote (from your #38) is bizarre, in that I’m pretty sure it was written about a non-SGM church (something called “Worldwide”?). And yet if you read it, almost everything in the first couple of paragraphs reads like it’s about SGM. Check this out:
Historically, most (not all, but most, as this has been a strong bias in the organization) SGM churches conveyed to their members that “secular psychology” was not to be trusted. Professional counseling – even Christian professional counseling – has been disparaged, even fairly recently. The following quote is from a talk given by Andy Farmer at the 2009 Pastors Conference. Mr. Farmer is engaging in that lovely SGM practice of using a couple from his church as examples…he did give them pseudonyms but went on to tell so much about them that I actually felt compelled to edit out a few of the details he shared, so as not to risk identifying them through publishing the transcript. To give Mr. Farmer’s words some context, he is describing what he did in a particular marital counseling situation, explaining to the SGM pastors how to maintain their “poker faces” when they learn something they don’t like.
Here is my commentary:
Andy Farmer continues talking about the couple he’s counseling, where he’s just learned that the wife is seeing a professional counselor:
You can access links to the entire transcript of this teaching from Mr. Farmer, entitled The Pastor And The Counseling Process, here.
SGM has always had a prejudice against the mental health profession. That’s one similarity between them and the organization called “Worldwide.”
Another is how not many of the pastors have much higher formal education.
And still another is that SGM has its own Pastors College.
Eric Ns,
I was working on the assumption that your friend, Gene Prince, has the gonads to opine on this board without a buddy to cover his backside.
You have gone on and on and on with your own opinion but I CHALLENGE you to answer this simple question,
Why isn’t Kerrin’s MOM allowed to see her own dear grandchildren?
Do answer that little question.
DB,
Let me try and test my psychic abilities. :wink:
If Eric NS is still reading and decides to reply, I’m guessing what he would say would be something along these lines:
:D
Have to say, if self preservation was Christ priority, we would not have a savior.
If forward momentum was Gods priority, patience would not be considered love,
and yet patience is the FIRST of the twelve virtues of love as defined in the bible.
If dismissing former members as “bitter, as CJ has done, is the christian way, than Christ was mistaken in the parable of the lost sheep.
Suffice to say, there is a big problem with SGM, by design. All stories and experiences aside, their practice is not my God or saviors example. The fact that God can still work within this group of churches is not a testament to the SGM righteousness or ways, it is a testament to Gods sovereignty.
Even the worst of pagans enjoy levels of perceived success in this life. Chances are, the Christians who are really “doing it right” are the one you may never hear about or see.
Every time that I see the abbreviation SGM on here, my mind hearkens back to various computer games and transposes it into SMG which stands for Submachine Gun. Every time.
Every.
Time.
We have to do something about that. I’m ok with changing either acronym to something new, but it depends on whether the founders of SGM or the makers of SMGs will be more cooperative.
Unassimilated #46 — You just described the difference between a shepherd and a hireling!!
Gene Prince — No it isnt SGM responsible for world hunger, global warming and terriorism – that is George Bush!! No food chain in the church you served – what no food being served — just a bit a levity :D Really glad your experience with SGM was such a good and positive one. I do believe that there are many that would echo those same sentiments. What I don’t really understand is why the many aren’t more demanding in how and why people just disappear! Just wondering how people in such tight relationships that truly love one another can just let that happen? How if there are two sides to every story they never hear any side but their leaders . . just wondering!!! Yea I get there were some things that were confusing at times . . as I am now!
Eric NS — people that come to this place with a bit of an arrogant chip on their shoulder do get that chip knocked around. I love the bumper sticker “don’t mess with Texas”
Unassimilated #42 — No problem with what you said. I find you most engaging. Thanks.
Kris #32 — Haven’t I clearly established that I disagree with the SGM polity model — one of your top three issues with SGM? I even went so far as to call it borderline authoritarian/totalitarian. There is inadequate congretational accountability. Is that strong enough? Yes, I refuse to use your “cultic” terms (if that is your preference, so be it). I think there are problems with some of their practice regarding the sacraments that actually have Gospel implications. The churches are too big. And to the extent that they have engaged in the actions described in the blog, I think that they have dishonored Christ and mistreated people. All of these things need changed. Are you satisfied now? Do I pass the test? Will you paint me less broadly now? Kris, just because I don’t beat them up with every other post doesn’t mean that I’m blind and stupid. It just means that I’m a reasonably kind person who is still able to see good in the midst of problems, and deeply wish that others would do the same. Is that really so hard to believe?
Happymom #41 and Acme #33 and others — Yes, Gene chose to comment here. His initial comment was edgy but actually quite funny, unless there is no sense of humor here about how serious this place takes itself. But his later comment about his own experience shouldn’t be challenged. DB jumped all over him. Maybe he was at a small SGM church that only had two pastors. I don’t know this, but I can imagine the possibilites. How can someone judge his situation and his description of his own experience (no one here will let me do that to other’s experiences, and I’ve agreed to abide by that rule)? The only way that I can explain the attack on his personal experience is that there has to be a presupposition that all SGM pastors are bad people. If there is another explanation, I’m listening, but I’m just not convinced of the arguments typcially stated. Also, I have no intention at this time to challenge the leadership as you would like. As you yourself know, they wouldn’t answer the questions anyway, and I also know that, too. [Kris, another acknowledgment of a problem.]
Kris #45 and DB #44 — Congrats, you’re close on your prediction. :wink: Actually…I am not part of Kerrin’s situation and have no personal knowledge of that. I have no idea whether or not Kerrin’s mom is allowed to see her grandchildren. That is what Kerrin posted, so I have no doubt that it is true. But since DB keeps looking for THE answer, I’m at least willing to posit a theory. Its the same theory that I posted at the end of the previous topic — that Megan’s family could be concerned that Kerrin’s family would knowingly or unknowingly help Kerrin take the children. Isn’t that the logical, most likely reason? I don’t have to be psychic to figure that out, nor do I have to be part of Kerrin’s situation. I don’t think that its a good thing for them to deny his family access, either, but I can understand a possible reason they would do. [Another problem acknowledged, and with consideration to both sides of the argument.]
DB #44 — I doubt that you’ll believe me, but I’ll say it anyway. I don’t know who Gene Prince is, let alone stating that he is my friend. I’m just concerned about how things are portrayed. I think you’ll find that I’ve consistently said that.
Kris, since you don’t seem to believe who I am or what I represent, why don’t you contact Sidney?
For what it’s worth . . .
I hope that Kerrin is able to separate the issues in his marriage and family from his SGM issues or in-law issues, though I know they overlap. I hope he is keeping in mind how a judge is going to view his actions. I don’t pretend to know what’s going on inside Kerrin. I do know that even after being out of an SGM church for many years, I can still have a visceral reaction when I think about my time there and the negative effect that SGM had on my life and the lives of some of my family members. Still, a judge without all the background knowledge will have to sort things out based on limited knowledge. My hope and prayer is that any judge will make decisions based on the best interests of the children.
My thought is that the children should be allowed access to their grandparents, particularly if the kids are used to this interaction and are loved by their grandparents. I guess that in Kerrin’s absence Megan is, by default, the custodial parent and has the legal right to call the shots (?) Can’t Kerrin’s mother be trusted with her grandchildren for agreed upon amounts of time? Would she keep her word in returning the children? If so, it seems unnecessary (not to mention hurtful) to not allow any access.
Not sure how this will go over but personally, I don’t think the Kauflins should have to change their religion in order to have some interaction with their grandchildren (in the eventuality that Kerrin does get his kids back). I don’t blame Kerrin for NOT wanting to allow the Kauflins access, but they probably love the kids even if they have some major blind spots. My thought is that the more the children feel loved by lots of family members, the better for the kids. If the Kauflins are going to slam Kerrin in front of or to the children (hope they wouldn’t do that), 8O then that’s a reason to not allow them access.
I really don’t think that Kerrin should (would) lose his parental rights even if he were an atheist (though I am not sure how his leaving the country will play out in court). By the way, in my experience parents can have MAJOR mental issues and still retain custody of their children (not saying that Kerrin does). My point it that if Kerrin (yoga and all http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif) has never been abusive to his children, he probably would not lose parental rights. The choice to leave the country may be another matter. My prayer is for the family to be restored.