The Puzzling Return of Larry T
July 5, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Larry T is coming back to Sovereign Grace Ministries. He’s going to be a “special guest” at the Sovereign Grace Ministries Pastors Conference this coming November.
So many questions come to mind. In no particular order, here are a few:
- Will SGM now begin to acknowledge Larry’s role as co-founder (one could actually argue key founder) of the organization?
. - Will the real facts of Larry’s departure be disclosed?
. - Will C.J. Mahaney share openly and honestly and with some detail about the process that led to this apparent reconciliation?
. - Will SGM make every effort to contact all those who received letters telling them about Larry’s departure, and will SGM explain in the new letter how it is that Larry is now “restored” enough to have overcome the sins of which he was accused, to the point where he’s once again worthy to fellowship with other SGMers?
Reconciliation is a great thing. But in an organization that seems to be so plagued by a lack of openness, it will be interesting to see how the return of Larry T will be presented.
Considering that SGM members have absolutely no formal avenue to call their leaders to accountability, they will be stuck with whatever C.J. Mahaney and his advisors choose to share. But we can hope that for once, honesty and full disclosure will prevail over closed-door back-room machinations.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Irv,
I know you have Master’s degree from Spiritual Concepts International Seminary and earned Doctorates in Theology and Ministry and you are a former SG pastor.
So in your educated and humble opinion is SG and SGM a CULT?
What do you think about Larry speaking at Sovereign Grace Ministries Pastors Conference?
Caution
This is what the SGM site says:
“We are pleased to announce that Larry T will be joining us as a special guest.”
“Special guest” doesn’t necessarily mean he will be speaking.
What’s interesting to me on a personal level is that Larry T’s omission from SGM’s history was one of the things that nagged at me when I was researching SGM, back when Guy and I were trying to figure out if it was the church for us.
In a roundabout way, you could almost say that Larry T’s omission from SGM’s history led to the founding of the original blog, “SGuncensored.”
Almost the entire time we were part of our SGM church, I was nagged by subtle misgivings. The misgivings led me to spend just about every Sunday afternoon furiously searching for anything online that might explain why I was seeing things that bothered me. But I could never find anything that addressed my particular perspective.
The ONLY thing out there was this one random blog, where the comments section of an old post (I think it was originally published in 2005) had taken a turn. If memory serves, the post had been about this person’s visit to an SGM church, and there wasn’t really anything particularly controversial about what they’d shared. But in the comments, several people had written stuff about SGM. Some of it was a bit negative, and wow, were there some comments that grew quite defensive of SGM, just to the seemingly mild criticism.
Then there were a few rather lengthy comments that were clearly written by someone who had been part of SGM/PDI for a long time, someone who knew what he was talking about. This commenter described some of PDI’s earlier history, and mentioned that CJ was NOT the only founder! There was actually a co-founder, Larry T!
I found this shocking, and yet I still couldn’t articulate precisely why it was shocking. I guess it was because everything else out there read like this:
I was already nagged by the sense that CJ was this overly revered and practically worshiped larger-than-life celebrity to the people at our SGM church. And the idea that he would permit whoever it was that handled writing SGM’s publicity materials to make it sound like he was even more important than he actually was – well, that didn’t seem right to me. It also didn’t jive with the fact that CJ was supposed to be soooooooooo humble.
No truly humble guy would rewrite his organization’s history to make himself appear to be the only founder…if he really wasn’t the only founder.
I thought about the possibility that the other founder might have had some terrible moral failing or something, and maybe that was why SGM wanted to distance themselves from him. But again – no truly humble person would whitewash history. A truly humble person would at least acknowledge openly that there had been “sin in the camp” at one point.
When I found that old blog, with those comments about SGM’s history and Larry T, I couldn’t get over the sense that something wasn’t right. Not acknowledging Larry T’s role as co-founder seemed like a small thing, and yet it didn’t seem so small, when you considered the implications. What was this organization trying to hide?
Eventually, as most of you longtime readers know, that random blog post was deleted, along with the 50 or 75 comments discussing SGM. The fact that the ONLY place online where I’d been able to discover secret facts about SGM’s history (facts that newcomers would never know) had disappeared just floored me. I was sitting here, rather late at night, and saying to Guy, “Wow, this is so weird, that other blog post just disappeared!” And that’s when Guy said to me, “Why don’t you put up your own blog?”
The funny thing was, I happened to have copies of those comments detailing SGM’s “secret” history. I’d happened to have copied and pasted them into an email to Guy some months before. I decided those comments needed a new home, so in about 30 minutes, Guy tossed up a blog and I tossed up a few posts.
That’s how this site came to be.
I was shocked when people began to comment almost immediately…and even more shocked when people began sharing stories of actual abuse. I’d had no idea that there might be problems beyond rewriting history.
But a lack of openness about the past is often a sign that other things might not be right.
That’s why this Larry T return seems like it should be a big deal to every SGMer.
Then what does “special guest” mean when a person is listed as such for conferences, etc.?
Someone educate me.
Anyone on the inside want to email the Inner Circle and ask about this and see what they say?
Maybe he’s just attending and they wanted to give anyone with ancient issues with him the heads up?
Yep, the return of Larry is absolutely enormous. He was the public face of PDI, and CJ was just his long-haired sidekick, right through to the early 1990s. CJ was his disciple who he raised up into leadership at the behest of TAG (the previous incarnation of CLC) founder Lydia Little (who presumably has not been invited to share the stage). Larry led the first PDI church plant (whereas CJ has always remained at CLC), meaning that he is the guy who turned PDI into a church planting movement. He founded and edited People of Destiny Magazine, which gave PDI its global profile. He wrote several bestselling books twenty years before anyone else (CJ, Josh) had hit the publishing market.
Few in SGM would believe today that it was a Charismatic Catholic with Pentecostal leanings who founded their movement. Contrary to popular belief expressed on this blog, though, Larry didn’t fade into obscurity. When he left PDI in 1998 to join the faculty of Brownsville School of Ministry, few would have seen that as a demotion. Brownsville (in Pensacola), at the time, was the epicenter of the largest and most influential charismatic revival of its day; an event which was picking up where the Toronto Blessing had left off. Literally millions were attending the renewal meetings, so – despite the weirdness of his departure from SGM – it hardly looked like a step down.
Larry actually only left Brownsville when the revival had wound down. He had long had a restless spirit – the first ever cover of People of Destiny Magazine featured the words “Are You A Pioneer – Or A Settler”. True to his own values, Larry led the planting of a new church in Atlanta, where he remained for several years before moving to work with some of the ‘prophetic big dogs’ on a new training initiative which – admittedly – has not had quite the profile he probably hoped for.
All this to say: Larry is the returning King. I doubt he will be handed his crown back though, so it will intriguing to see how things unfold. But, hurtful though it may have felt to be airbrushed from SGM history, he has hardly been languishing in a ministerial no-mans land for the past fourteen years.
(Joe, who wrote the Wikipedia articles on SGM and Larry T)
Didn’t we once have a commenter on the blog who was a relative of Larry T?
I may have this blog confused with another one. This relative was pretty “vocal.”
Yes Kindred, I even talked to them on the phone. I don’t remember how much info they shared so I won’t say any more but Kris was in contact too I think.
I prefer running with the biggest dog of ’em all.
Ah, semantics — “special guest” — if he were just gonna show up and sit on the front row, why even announce it? Surely, he’ll have some kind of up-front moment.
And again, semantics — was it still PDI when Larry was there? If they didn’t use the term SGM until after he was ousted, then there’s the argument that he wasn’t a founder of SGM, only of PDI. But a rose is a rose is a rose. And like some of the other commmenters mentioned earlier, it was clear back then that Larry was Andy and CJ was Barney, a fun combination.
The very first announcement went something like this: It had become clear to them that Larry and CJ were differently gifted, and that everyone agreed that they needed to switch roles — that CJ would now be technically #1, and that Larry would back him up. In my view of Christianity, at first, I thought this was an admirable thing. Then, some others who’d been around PDI longer were aghast, saying “Larry has always been the mover and shaker here — he’s the one who really built this ministry — there’s something wrong about this…”
Later, can’t remember how long after, we got another letter saying Larry was in trouble over covering up issues with a child’s behavior, but was working through discipline. And months later, a year? I can’t remember — another came, saying Larry was gone. And never was another leader ever elevated to the CJ/Larry level — it became a real pyramid with CJ dancing on the point, and whatever accountability there might have been in the beginning evaporated.
I’m glad Larry’s gracious enough to accept their invitation, and I hope he gives them the word they need. There’s been time enough for us all to grow older, and I hope, wiser. To God be the glory.
Mattie,
If its a pastors conference then I think they would know before hand. I will write more of my thought on why they did that later.
Larry was relocated out of Mecca into Fairfax before being ousted altogether. In hindsight, I assume this would have been a calculated move
Mattie, Mattie, Mattie…it’s not like he’s showing up at the local Starbucks for a birthday party….this is THE PASTORS CONFERENCE we’re talking about.
:wink:
(…and trust me, when you’re a little older, 15 years (or so) won’t seem all that long ago….) :D
Ellie, Lynn: Definitely got misinterpreted here. I didn’t mean to suggest that it’s no big deal or that they wouldn’t have known – I do think that the pastors at CLC might have some party line to give about why he’s there if someone asks, and I’d be curious to hear it. And “ancient” was me being facetious – I think that the announcement there might have some sort of follow-up-to-an-all-SGM-pastor-email purpose that we aren’t aware of.
I don’t comment here often but here are my creds. I was at Fairfax Covenant Church from mid 1991 to early 2003, active and serving but never even close to the upper echelons because I was an older divorced single Mom who worked, did not homeschool, and lived in my own home. My children were never really accepted either; because they were public-schooled. Wonderful women and amazing moms now, by the way. For some years I also worked in one of the businesses that was “adjunct” to FCC and (then) PDI. This one was a radio/TV production and duplication company where every staff member was an FCC member. I was a part of the homegroup where the Noel’s story debacle took place and knew all the players involved very well. As with others former SGMers, it was that situation that triggered my departure.
I was also around for events that led to LT’s departure from the movement and I knew a bit backstage about what went on in LT’s family.
That’s a long introduction to a longish comment; which is sort of a prediction. CJ is making nice with LT now in order to bring him back on board. That will have a couple of advantages. Longtime PDI/SGM folks who liked LT will be reassured. It is a big enough change to divert attention from some of the current unpleasantnesses, including the messy royal divorce and the unresolved child molestation and spousal abuse issues. LT’s return can be spun to create the appearance of increased accountability. Here is the prediction. Having LT and JH both around gives CJ a choice of whom to throw under the bus when the time comes — and it will — though I think other heads will roll first. I can name five former FCC pastors who I knew well who were purged for trumped up reasons. It will be interesting to see how the three, CJ, the elder statesman firebrand (LT), or the brilliant young rock star (JH) comes out of this.
Phoenix,
Welcome, and thanks for the comment.
It’s one thing for CJ and Larry to reconcile. It’s another thing to make a public spectacle out of it.
I guess that’s where my questions come from.
Why did they choose to do this “from the stage,” so to speak? I know I’m harping on an old theme, but like so many other issues, I think integrity demands that they tackle Larry’s return in the same way they handled his exit. Send out a letter of explanation first. Be open and honest and at least somewhat detailed about what has transpired between these two guys.
Caution – #1 – I assume your questions are genuine and will respond accordingly.
For the record, I was not part of the change from PDI to SGM. It has been almost 15 years since I resigned from PDI. Larry was still part of the PDI and pastoring in Atlanta. I believe that CJ had moved to the lead role in PDI while Larry was being redefined (ie apostle, evangelist, pastor, etc.) I don’t believe the name change was made until after Larry’s exit. I am not sure what changes were made internally other than CJ took the helm.
So in your educated and humble opinion is SG and SGM a CULT? I will come back to this in another post.
What do you think about Larry speaking at Sovereign Grace Ministries Pastors
Conference?
I was very pleased when I heard that CJ and Larry had reconciled a few months ago and I did speak to one person who spoke with Larry, who confirmed that report. Based on some of my conversations with the SGM leadership, trying to facilitate some reconciliation between SGM leadership and a couple of other pastors, I felt there were some genuine heart changes in what was happening within SG (primarily with CJ).
The takeover by CJ and the other leaders was a bit mysterious to me based on my ‘exit strategy’. However, based on the way PDI conducted their business while I was with them, CJ and the other PDI leaders who were out of sinc with Larry should have resigned and started their own ministry. According to their own policies and procedures, CJ should have resign (and any of the other leaders out of sinc with Larry). The churches should have remained under Larry’s leadership and then let the other leaders and churches decide whether to stay with Larry or not. Then CJ and the SGM leaders start with a clean slate.
I think it is very good that Larry and CJ are reconciled. I don’t know what ‘reconciled’ means with respects to SGM, I am not sure Larry would go back I can’t really see CJ welcoming him back. But stranger things have happened. It has been my prayer, that with the number of years behind them, they will have some open communication between them. That they would have some time evaluating where things went wrong and make some moves to correct them. From a place of knowing both of them, I am very glad they are relating and talking.
The fact that Larry is attending their pastor’s conference, I think that is a good step and would be true to their MO. (CJ to the SGM leaders, to the sr pastors and then to the pastors at large). From the pastors conference they will most likely go public and my hope is they will reach out to other pastors/leaders that were removed or left under less than desirable situations under their oversight. Just speculation and hope on my part!
At this point, I would encourage all to pray that God’s purposes will be accomplished through this reconciliation process. These men are not the enemy. Certainly I disagree with their methodologies and their over emphasis on ‘their authority’ with respects to those they lead or serve. I have serious issues with how they handle people who disagree or challenge them or don’t conform to their image. On a personal level I find most of the SGM leaders personable and likeable.
I have communicated in past blogs on Refuge mostly – SGM is not THE problem but they are part of the problem with respects to the church in America. I have copied some of the notes from a presentation from last year to emphasize. Personally my heart breaks over our condition and our lack of influence in our culture. (Kris – if you don’t want to post these no problem from me)
What do the statistics tell us? According to the United States Census Bureau records, Francis A Schaeffer Institute of Church Leadership Development, Into Thy Word Ministries, denomination reports, and Assemblies of God U.S. Mission:
• Every year more than 4000 churches close their doors compared to just over 1000 new church starts.
• 2.7 million Christians leave their churches every year due to hurts, wounds, disillusionment and neglect.
• 50% of Christians do not have a church home
• 50% of church attendees are not Christians (Barna Research Group – BRG)
• 50% of our high school students leave the church and/or the faith upon graduation (BRG)
• 75% of pastors felt they were unqualified and/or poorly trained to lead, manage or counsel the church
• 74% of pastors have no personal devotion time and felt they are not adequately fed spiritually.
• 1500 pastors leave the ministry each month due to moral failure, spiritual burnout or contention in the churches
• 50% of pastor’s marriages will end in divorce
• 80% of pastors feel unqualified and discouraged in the role as pastor
• 50% of pastors are so discouraged that they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way of making a living
• 10% of pastors feel they have the gift of leadership. (BRG)
• 90% of pastors say the hardest thing about ministry is dealing with uncooperative people.
• Born-again Christians divorce more often than non-Christians (BRG)
• 70% of all abortions are women professing to be Christian
Jesus said, “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give it to you” (Jn 15:16). “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men” (Matt 5:13). “The kingdom of God is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened.” (Lk 13:20, 21).
It’s possible the unthinkable is happening: the blogs are being used by God to effect change at SGM. I get excited to think that SGM leaders could actually change, rather than see the entire edifice collapse on top of them.
Then I hear a silent “Naaaaahhhh!”
Then I realize: whatever Mahaney may want to try with changing SGM policy/polity, he doesn’t have to approach this blog directly. All he has to do is have an innocuous announcement posted on an SGM-controlled website, confident that news of it will end up here – to be thoroughly analyzed by the “red team”. In other words, this blog is a free “focus group” for SGM leadership.
I’m not saying that in a negative way; just to remind us that while we can get frustrated – thinking at times we’re in an echo chamber – it’s very possible that 3 years of steady discussion (and prayer) is actually having a cumulative effect.
Or (as I hear the silent “Naaaahhhh” again), maybe not. :spin
More prayer.
For those who don’t already know, Larry and Doris were relocated to Atlanta by PDI/SGM after leaving Fairfax. Soon after the local Atlanta PDI/SGM church plant (Northside Church of Atlanta with senior pastor Marc Lawson) seceded from the organization, Larry T. and Doris came to Atlanta to begin “City Church of Northern Atlanta.” I can’t remember how long Larry T. led City Church as the senior pastor (2 yrs ?), but I remember his being demoted and his pastoral duties duties being turned over to someone else (John Butler ?). Soon, Gene Prince took the lead (his was the church with no food chain :) and was pastor for a number of years (though he’s not there anymore???). I may be wrong, but I think that while Gene P. was pastor, his church was a bit of an SGM hybrid (not a typical PDI/SGM church) since Gene was already a seasoned Christian.
Lots of people followed Larry T. when he started his own church, “Christ the King,” where his younger son, Jason, took over and still pastors. I think Larry T. was traveling back and forth between Atlanta and Brownsville for awhile. For the record, there have been at least 3 major splits within the Atlanta PDI/SGM church since the original PDI/SGM Atlanta church was planted. I think the one which exists today has been genetically modified.
I would be kind of disappointed were I to hear that Larry T. was involved with SGM again in any type of supportive capacity. Though I have always felt that Larry T. had much culpability in the heavy handed, sin sniffing, attention grabbing leadership style of CLC/PDI/SGM, I had thought that God had opened his eyes once he and his family were on receiving end. I still hope that’s true.
I had the privilege of serving with Larry in Atlanta for a season before he left PDI. Without rehashing all that went on during that time, I am truly excited to hear of this news. Larry loves Jesus and is the most gifted personal evangelist that I have ever known. You can’t know Larry and not love the guy. My prayer is that this reconciliation will bring God much glory in the months and years ahead. Good for you guys!
I honestly hope Larry doesn’t return to active involvement with SGM. He shouldn’t, since he’s not a Calvinist. It wouldn’t be the right place for him.
Besides–C’mon, Larry, you got out! You’ve been breathing free air! Don’t go back.
However–SGM leaders–many of us who got the letter about Larry leaving are still around. If Larry is going to stand on any SGM stage, send us a letter to explain what is going on. SEND US A LETTER!!
Mattie,
Ohhh, ok, gotcha! :D
I have mixed feelings about LT. I think when he was at PDI,he and CJ kept one another in balance and I think there’s a correlation between his absence and an inbalance in the force that became the trainwreck that keeps this blog generating hundreds of responses for every blog entry.
The positives for me was the fact that we had never heard such positive and proactive messages come from a Christian leader that we heard when we happened to be at a Creation festival in the early 1980’s.
Larry preached a consistantly upbeat message that we could play a part in, in his words, hastening the return of Christ for His church; a beautiful Bride.
Those messages were what attracted us to PDI and Covenant Fellowship when it first started.
On the negative; Unfortunately, Larry gave a marriage seminar for the first church meetings and I am sure he got his material from Gothard. It was the same old oppressive message of submit doormatism that was uninspiring.
The parenting teaching within the covers of God the Rod and Your Child’s Bod was draconian at best and was adversarial and negative toward children.
I should have seen those two huge warning signs and scooped up my kids and flee as fast as I could because the rest, as they say, is history.
And Covenant Fellowship became Covenant Fullofit.
@Caution,
I know you didn’t ask for my opinion, but seeing as how this is an open forum I thought I’d respond to this:
Nothing against the learned Irv and I look forward to his answer to this question, but theology has nothing to do with the identification of destructive cultic groups. Cultic groups are identified by their methodologies, practices, authority structure(s), etc. NOT theology or Orthodox beliefs. The list I provided in my exit story was put together by experts on identifying destructive cultic groups (The International Cultic Studies Association). And so far no one has shown how that list doesn’t apply to SGM. Until such a list is be shown to be false then the identification of SGM as a destructive cultic group stands.
For anyone interested in how SGM’s methods of mind control are “unbiblical” I recommend this eBook: The Heresy of Mind Control.
Phoenix – SGM will never allow LT back. Not unless he has made major theological shifts! And even then they would never elevate him to a high position. As someone who is totally Reformed (and not “essentially” Reformed) I can tell you that if they brought him back without a change in his theology, they would loose all the standing that they have gained in the Reformed community over the last 10 yrs. They won’t do it.
Here’s another good checklist:
http://www.rickross.com/warningsigns.html
Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader:
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
8. Followers feel they can never be “good enough”.
9. The group/leader is always right.
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader:
1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower’s mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused–as that person’s involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as “persecution”.
4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
The characteristics in BOLD are the ones I think are particularly noticeable in those who have really bought into the SGM mindset.
I suppose some of SGM’s thinking in how they do their pastor “selection”; their pastor “training” (SGM Pastors’ College) along with it’s extreme accountability, mentoring, and scrutinizing of even the wife and children; and the whole “submit and obey your pastors – be a ‘joy’ to serve” crap they give their members is linked to the reality of those figures Irv quoted about pastors.
It’s tough for everyone, as the figures Irv shared show, not just pastors; which is why SGM and those like them come up with all the “formulas” and “safe guards” for living the “godly, wiser, more biblical” life.
They’re merely thinking like the Pharisees.
God knew that while we were “running the race” that we would fall down and get hurt, get sidetracked, cheat and take short cuts, occasionally get completely off track, and would simply get tired and even exhausted from time to time.
God gives us *EVERYTHING* we need to “finish the race.”
The only thing we should be doing is sharing the gospel, and helping our brothers and sisters “running the race” along side us when they fall down or need our help in some way. We don’t need to come up with “extra biblical” directions for running the race.
And we sure as heck don’t need to be scrutinizing/judging how others run. If they’re doing something so wrong that it’s affecting their performance or causing them to veer off the path, God is perfectly capable of drawing their attention to it and taking care of it. He’s the trainer, coach, official, and final judge of the race. We’re simply the runners He so graciously invited/chose (depending on your belief :wink: ) to run.
Until both CJ and Larry renounce the teachings that influenced them in the beginning (namely those from the Shepherding Movement), apologize for the abuses that came from following and implementing these teachings, and specify how they plan to rectify what they’ve done then this “special guest” appearance is nothing more than perfume a the pig. But that wouldn’t make good business sense for either of them would it? What makes better business sense for both of them is a public kiss and make up. :barf:
My memory is being jogged today. I went back and looked and found the following quote, from “Set Free’s” Story:
What’s interesting is, if I’m making the right connections, this same young man has recently run for political office.
What if, instead of a public reconciliation, Larry T would take a public stance against CJ’s ministry?
What if Larry T would publicly repent for his part in starting ministry with CJ against their mentor’s advice?
What if Larry T would then call CJ to repentance?
What if Larry T would align himself with those hurt by the ministry he and CJ started?
What if someone (CJ, Larry or both) took responsibility for these things instead of playing pattycake with one another?
:huh
Kerrin,
I just went to the Rick Ross site. He has a section on helping with divorce and with children involved in a cult. Have you checked out his site?
Hmm – i just googled that young man running for office in Georgia — he sure looks like his dad.
@Pam,
I’ve checked out his site before, but never came across the section on divorce and children. Thanks! I’ll go check it out now.
Remnant,
it’s not too late, is it? He can still do that.
Kerrin, thanks for that link. I read that a while ago, but this time, I saved the link. :)
#30, Kris, that might not be the wisest move that he can make the way the media digs for things…
Kris, in your opening statment you said
But in an organization that seems to be so plagued by a lack of openness,…
I think that is a huge understatement and might be more accurate if you said this group has an MO of a lack of openness.
For example, what exactly will be said about the thinking of inviting Larry back, ahead of the said event?
If a new letter of explanation is being mailed I will gladly provide the necessary change of address for Defender and me.
Former SGM dude (#26)You make a very good point if theology is the determining factor and in any case I may be wildly wrong in my read of the situation. However I think CJ is a canny businessman and people mover who can change his theology when it suits him and make it sound like an inspired and integrous decision (with his chorus confirming it.)
Kris (#30) I know who that perp was (I know Set Free’s family well.) I didn’t know that he had run for office, but I just googled and confirmed that. When the incident with JT occurred at CLC the victim’s parents were both paid off and threatened with a lawsuit if they talked. I knew there had been at least one subsequent incident and this may be it.
Phoenix,
Re your #39 and my #30…
I wish we could learn the truth of the situation. Many aspects of the payola-to-silence-victims idea fit the circumstances surrounding Larry T’s first repositioning and ultimate firing better than any other explanation.
Such a scenario also fits his continued silence over the years about anything specific relating to his SGM experience.
I think it’s possible that both guys might benefit from uniting forces again so as to turn people’s attention away from issues they’d rather not address openly.
Caution – #1 –
So in your educated and humble opinion is SG and SGM a CULT?
This is not an easy one for me personally. I have people that I love and/or care about that are still with SGM. There are people that I respect still in leadership positions. The word cult has with it some things where I personally don’t want to go.
Saying that I do believe a response to you is needed.
I do have some questions for you however that might help me answer your question of me. Do you think that people in SGM can be objective when it comes to considering SGM being a cult? They love their church, their pastor, their leaders, their relationships and it is all good (not perfect). I have heard it enough through the years that there is no such thing as a perfect church therefore. So that being the case why are people on the blogs doing this evil thing. Why would anyone be so vindictive to call it or label SGM as cult?
Do you believe any of the stories you have read about here and if so what percentage of what you have read do you believe are true? What do you think about the numbers of people that have just disappeared from the church without any explanation? I realize that it doesn’t happen to everyone but has happened enough to question?
Do you believe that all the people that post on these blogs are just angry bitter people that just want to hurt SGM, or CJ?
Perhaps it would first appropriate for me to ask how you define or describe a cult and then I can respond appropriately to your question. At the end of the day for you it really doesn’t make any difference in your life if I believe or do not believe that SGM is a cult.
This article was helpful to me perhaps it will be for you as well. I was going to copy and paste a few of Jan’s observations but at the end of the article she asks that that not be done. (Sorry Kris!)
IDENTIFYING A CULT
Copyright 1985, 1991 Jan Groenveld
1. SECULAR DEFINITION
2. CHRISTIAN DEFINITION
3. UNIVERSAL DEFINITION
4. OTHER IDENTIFICATION MARKS
5. HOW THEY DO THIS
6. SOME ABUSES OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS:
7. RESULTS OF THIS ABUSE
8. SUMMARY
There has been much confusion about cults and how to ‘pickem’.
Some have difficulty identifying a cult because it is not so easy to identify one that is not even religious. For this reason, over the years, different definitions of what actually is a cult have developed to make it easier when you know little about their beliefs.
The different definitions:
SECULAR DEFINITION
CULT – From the Latin “cultis” which denotes all that is involved in worship, ritual, emotion, liturgy and attitude. This definition actually denotes what we call denominations and sects and would make all religious movements a cult.
CHRISTIAN DEFINITION
CULT – Any group which deviates from Biblical, orthodox, historical Christianity. e.i. They deny the Deity of Christ; His physical resurrection; His personal and physical return to earth and salvation by FAITH alone.
This definition only covers those groups which are cults within the Christian religion. It does not cover cults within other world religions such as Islam and Hinduism. Nor does it cover Psychological, Commercial or Educational cults which do not recognize the Bible as a source of reality.
UNIVERSAL DEFINITION
CULT – Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members. This definition covers cults within all majopr world religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS religious base such as commercial, educational and psychological cults. Others may define these a little differently, but this is the simplest to work from.
THE ‘ORTHODOX BIBLE-BASED CULT’
A group is called a cult because of their behaviour – not their doctrines. Doctrine is an issue in the area of Apologetics and Heresy. Most religious cults do teach what the Christian church would declare to be heresy but some do not. Some cults teach the basics of the Christian faith but have behavioural patterns that are abusive, controlling and cultic.
This occurs in both Non-Charismatic and Charismatic churches. These groups teach the central doctrines of the Christian faith and then add the extra authority of leadership or someone’s particular writings. They centre around the interpretations of the leadership and submissive and unquestioning acceptance of these is essential to be a member of good standing. This acceptance includes what we consider non-essential doctrines e.i. not salvation issues (such as the Person and Work of Christ.) The key is that they will be using mind control or undue influence on their members.
An excellent book on this subject is “Churches that Abuse” by Dr Ronald Enroth.
Using these guidelines of definition, Bible-based, Psychological, Educational and Commercial aberrations can easily be identified.
OTHER IDENTIFICATION MARKS
(a) The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to others, and a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.i. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT – everyone else is wrong. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD’S WILL – everyone else is in apostasy.
(b) They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse God-given personal rights and freedoms. This abuse can be THEOLOGICAL, SPIRITUAL, SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL.
HOW THEY DO THIS
1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God.
2. They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance regarding the Christian church while at the same time praising and exalting their own group, leader/s and work.
3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process.
4. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group. This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked); signing over all their property on entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed; selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the group as part of their “ministry”.
5. At the same time bible-based cults may ridicule churches that take up free-will offerings by passing collection plates and/or sell literature and tapes. They usually brag that they don’t do this. This gives outsiders the intimation that they are not interested in money.
6. There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings. The lives of members will be totally absorbed into the group’s activities. They will have little or no time to think for themselves because of physical and emotional exhaustion. This is also a vital part of the mind control process.
7. There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members. This control can be direct through communal living, or constant and repetitious teaching on “how to be a true Christian” or “being obedient to leadership”. Members will look to their leaders for guidance in everything they do.
8. Bible-based cults may proclaim they have no clergy/laity distinction and no paid ministry class – that they are all equal.
9. Any dissent or questioning of the group’s teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained.
10. Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way. This could be in the form of “dobbing” on fellow members (including family) under the guise of looking out for “spiritual welfare”.
They may be required to deliberately lie (heavenly deception/theocratic strategy) or give up their lives by refusing some form of medical treatment.
11. Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats. Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that involve their lives or have signed a “covenant” and feel threatened by this.
Refugees of the group are usually faced with confrontations by other members with coercion to get them to return to the group.
SOME ABUSES OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS:-
1. ABUSE OF INDIVIDUALITY They adopt a “groupness” mentality. They are not permitted to think for themselves apart from the group and only accept what they are told.
2. ABUSE OF INTIMACY Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses, children, parents etc are broken or seriously hampered.
3. ABUSE OF FINANCES Pressure to give all you can to the group. In non-communal groups, members usually live at the lower socio-economic strata, not because of a lower income level, but because they are always giving money to the group for some reason.
4. “US VERSUS THEM” MENTALITY Isolation from the community in general. Anyone and everything outside the group is seen as “of the devil” or “unenlightened” etc. Their enemies now include former friends; the Christian church; governments; education systems; the media – the world in general. Those who are involved with these in any way see such involvement as a “means to an end”.
5. ABUSE OF TIME AND ENERGY The group controls and uses almost all the members time and energy in group activities. They are usually in a constant state of mental and physical exhaustion.
6. ABUSE OF FREE WILL They must unquestioning submit to the groups teachings and directions and their own free will is broken. Their “will” actually becomes the groups “will” without their realizing it. This is done either by coercive methods including low protein diets and lack of sleep, or over a period of time through intimidation. Both methods make heavy use of “guilt”.
RESULTS OF THIS ABUSE
1. PERSONALITY CHANGES
Relatives will say they no longer recognize the person. From a warm, loving personality will come heaped abuse, rejection and feelings of hate. The cult member sees himself as “righteous” in comparison and this comes across in their attitude toward all outsiders.
2. LOSS OF IDENTITY
They cannot see themselves as individuals apart from the group. Some even change their name as a rejection of their former life.
3. PARANOID – WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED
Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as “persecution”. Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the “true Christian” or “enlightened” one – not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are “the only ones who are right”.
4. SOCIAL DISORIENTATION
They lose their ability to socialize outside the group. This can go so far as to not being able to structure their time or make simple decisions for themselves when they leave.
Their world-view alters and they perceive the world through their leaders eyes. They become very naive about life in general.
5. SEVERE GUILT COMPLEXES
They are made to feel guilty of everything they did before entering the group and are to strive to be “good” and “worthy” for “eternal life”. Misdemeanors are made into “mountains” so that members are in a constant state of guilt for infringing even the most minor rules. Guilt comes because they aren’t doing enough; entertaining doubts or questions; even thinking rationally for oneself.
This guilt is piled upon pile with new rules constantly being laid down about what is sinful and what is not. Illness may be seen as lack of faith – more guilt. Emotional illness may be seen as proof of sin in your life – more guilt.
SUMMARY
Not all these points will be found in every cult, but all cults will have some if not most of them, although these may vary to some degree.
Copyright 1985, 1991 Jan Groenveld
Internet Address: py1013@student.uq.edu.au
Mail: PO Box 2444 Mansfield Q 4122 Australia
Reproduction is permitted only if text is intact. The above identifying information must be left intact.
Guy,
Can we please have an app for the mobile device? Thank you.
Sidney
Already have one…send me an email with your device info and I’ll see what is going on. It should automagically detect and present you with the mobile site….
Does anyone have connections at ABC – 20/20…Primetime…Nightline?
Kindred Spirit,
I like your idea about ABC 20/20. My suggestion would be to figure out what story you are going to pitch: Larry T. Thing? The child abuse? The cult? figure out what you want to say then approach the local media. WaPo, local TV stations…If we can generate buzz locally, a big outlet like ABC national would be more likely to cover it.
And yes. I did say “we” . I’ll be happy to help!:wink:
I suggest caution before you go the 20/20 route. Something seems a bit off. Why would Larry draw attention to himself and xxxxxx in the following manner in his book: “T declared that this time “…seemed like an unbelievable nightmare” during which he, his wife Doris, and their son xxxxxx “were threatened in various ways if we did not cooperate with the ministry that we were leaving.”
I’m not saying “Set Free” isn’t telling the truth as she knows it, but maybe she didn’t have all the particular facts on this aspect of it.
OK, let me get this straight as this is a public blog and we need to try to be carefully factual.
[edited to remove link]
Question, and this is vital, because if we are Christians we do believe God can change people if they truly repent: Did he confess his sexual sins? Did he get counseling from a counselor (not just some PDI family life or youth pastor whose salary was on the line)? Did he apologize to the girls? Make restitution somehow, like pay for them to get counseling? Not a bribe to silence, but true restitution?
If he did, we need to stop this discussion and let the blood of Jesus cover it over. People can repent and change.
If not, this is huge.
Whew. I will be waiting for a reply. Maybe Gene P will be happy to fill us in.
I just read Set Free’s story. Oh my goodness, how absolutely sickening! The timeline and movement of the T family is a little confusing to me. Is the perp in the CLC incident (#39) the same person as the Fairfax perp and the Atlanta perp?
Irv,
Excellent article.
I think it’s important to point out that there are degrees to which these characteristics may be present in people who are part of a “cultic” group.
If we just take one random statement from the list – this one, for example –
I can easily imagine that the vast majority of SGMers would vehemently deny that dissent or questioning is discouraged. They’d be quick to recount instances where they brought a question to a pastor and were “heard.” Sometimes – gasp! – their pastors even agreed with their observations. Or, their pastors may have come back to them and acknowledged their correctness.
But the thing is, while it’s true that most SGM pastors are probably quite diplomatic about seeming to hear members’ concerns and answer their questions, one fact stands out to me above all others, which is that questioning and/or criticisms have to take place under terms dictated by the pastors. The pastors remain in control of the entire process. If they want to acknowledge the validity of a criticism, they can, but if they instead politely give some version of what boils down to, “That’s bogus,” there is not one thing that the member can actually DO about it. The pastors are in complete control of all such “negative” (or concerned) communications.
Plus – and I would even be so bold as to say we’ve recently seen this dynamic at work among some of the pro-SGM people here – the pastors/leaders feel compelled to dictate the manner in which criticisms and questions can be expressed. They have to be done in a way that the leader feels is proper.
So in effect, it actually isn’t so easy to have your questions or criticisms heard completely and totally.
Josh Harris’ recent apology shows us the outcome of even the most seemingly open-minded and approachable times of pastoral “fact-finding” and solicitation of feedback. In the end, members get an apology for the fact that the pastors weren’t careful enough in what they taught to prevent MEMBERS from making boneheaded and incorrect applications of their teachings.
I think that when a person is in the midst of the system, it’s not as simple to see these “cultic checklist” statements as applying to them in any real way. Yet if you peel back the layers and look at the end result, like in the case of how leadership responds to criticism, I think most people have to admit that criticisms serious negative feedback ends up being very limited.
Green Thumb,
The perp in Set Free’s situation is NOT the same perp as the one from Noel’s story, and likewise that person is NOT the same perp as the one from Wallace and Happymom’s story.