The Documents – Some Random Impressions
July 8, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Like many of you, I spent several hours yesterday looking over the documents that likely led to C.J. Mahaney’s temporarily stepping down from his leadership position in Sovereign Grace Ministries. These documents make for some long and arduous reading, as their author, Brent Detwiler, took over 400 pages to detail his experiences with the organization. Mr. Detwiler provides a tremendous amount of documentation, quoting entire email conversations and his own notes that cover more than a decade.
Honestly, I’m still not sure what to think.
For one thing, there is a level of vindication in finally being able to point to documentation – these leaders’ own words, their own emails – that proves what so many of us have been feeling and saying all along, which is that Sovereign Grace Ministries’ pyramid-style accountability structure simply does not work and is NOT a healthy place for the man at the top. While some of the information might be shocking in its revelation of rather extreme (even potentially criminal) behaviors like blackmail, what I found more telling than almost anything was the exchange in which C.J. Mahaney makes the (ostensible) request back in 2005 that the organization pay for his son’s airplane ticket for a ministry trip that C.J. and his wife Carolyn were going to take.
First of all, this exchange reveals in C.J. a breathtaking sense of entitlement. In 2005, his base salary – not counting profits from his book sales, the money he was paid in honorariums for speaking engagements, and other perks that come from being in a ministry position like his – was $150,000. While that’s not necessarily an excessive amount for the head of an organization like Sovereign Grace Ministries, it would probably seem like a large enough wage to most SGM members, large enough for most of us to conclude that if C.J. and Carolyn were good stewards of their money at all, they should have been able to afford their son’s airfare.
But more importantly, the exchange about the plane ticket clearly shows that while C.J. goes through the motions of making a request, no possibility ever really existed in C.J.’s mind that his request would be denied. When Mr. Detwiler questions C.J. about the request, his questions are met with twisted non-answers and faux submission – “I understand if this can’t be done” – even as it becomes very clear, even to the casual reader, that C.J. is not happy about being challenged and ultimately makes Brent pay dearly for it. Here is what Mr. Detwiler says about the aftermath of that exchange:
…it felt like we were being punished as Dave frequently described your reaction in situations like this one. That is, our denial of funds for Chad resulted in limitations of future travel for Carolyn. None of us wanted that as the outcome. I felt guilty for this development. And then your final comment which seemed to be self-pitying, etc. That is, ―Won‘t happen again. What won‘t happen again? You won‘t ever make a similar request in the future? We didn‘t want that result either. Again, I felt culpable. Why won‘t you do so again? Were you resentful? Did we do something wrong? Was it because we asked some questions and raised some issues?
I was worried. I knew I was in trouble again. In addition to your normal increase in salary, I proposed an additional $1,500 salary increase in 2006 to cover travel expenses for Chad even though I felt it unnecessary. That was shameful of me. I should have been truthful about my thoughts regarding your ability to pay for Chad. Please forgive me. I was also trying to avoid all conflict with you.
So basically, this incident makes it very clear that although C.J.’s words sound like he’s “asking,” it’s all little more than a show. The men around him are keenly aware of his lack of tolerance for having his desires thwarted or his wishes questioned, and aside from Brent Detwiler, it appears that none of C.J.’s supposed “circle of accountability” was actually ever holding him accountable.
The documents go on, in hundreds of pages of laborious detail, to make a pretty clear case for the idea that Brent Detwiler was ultimately declared “not gifted to continue in his role as pastor” in large part because of his continued efforts to hold C.J. to the same standards which C.J. required of everyone else.
In the end, I came away with a myriad of impressions…
…of what happens when a megalomaniac is given unchecked power…
…of what happens when people blur the lines between “promoting the gospel” and “promoting the ‘movement'”…
…of what happens when men live for decades with the belief that they are true “apostles” akin to the Apostle Paul, which apparently renders them unable to use language and communicate and just say what they mean like normal guys, without all that apostolic “Greetings, my dear brother in the name of our Savior” window dressing…
Ultimately, though, I was left with one overriding conviction.
And that is that after reading these documents, it would seem to me like there’s no way the SGM system can continue to function in the same manner that it always has.
The SGM system depends upon the notion that the men in control are above reproach, to the point where they do not need to be held formally accountable to the ordinary members of SGM congregations. Even “local” SGM churches count on this assumption. SGM members are taught – by C.J. Mahaney himself, no less – that it is their job to “make their pastor’s job a joy” by obeying and submitting to him. C.J. has spent years spreading this notion throughout the entire organization. He has stated that if a pastor is not successful in his ministry, it is because his church members are not properly submitting to and obeying him. C.J., in his Happiest Place On Earth sermon, said this:
The undeniable emphasis in [Hebrews 13] verse 17 is not on the pastoral team, the undeniable emphasis and accent in verse 17 is on the responsibility of the congregation TO the pastoral team, and here’s why. Here’s why.
The effectiveness of pastoral ministry is dependent upon a proper response TO pastoral ministry. THE effectiveness of pastoral ministry is indeed dependent upon a proper response TO pastoral ministry.
Later in this message, he glosses over the idea that church leaders might actually abuse their power. He says,
It could be, there might be some – I hope there are none – but there might be some, where you actually come from a context where a pastor or pastoral theme was authoritarian. And if that is true – and if that is true of you – [whispers intensely] I am SO SORRY. Because there is no excuse for that. And if any of us as pastors engage in that, may we be held accountable in this life. I’m sure we’ll be held accountable in the life to come.
And here’s what I can assure you of this morning: that will not be your experience in this church. That will not be your experience in this church.
Unfortunately, that was the only assurance that C.J. could give his audience – his word. Since SGM members have nothing built into their church governance structure as a safeguard against authoritarian abuse, they are left with no alternative but to “just trust” C.J.’s word that their pastors won’t abuse their authority.
As my dad would say, “It all hangs on one rusty nail.”
And now we’ve learned that the “rusty nail” isn’t trustworthy. We’ve seen what happens to the “rusty nail” at the top, when the guys who are supposed to hold him accountable also happen to consider him their boss.
Sure, C.J. Mahaney has now finally stepped down for a “season of reflection and repentance.” But it took over a decade to get him to that point, and he apparently still plans on coming back to Sovereign Grace Ministries after Mark Dever and his other celebrity accountability partners declare him restored.
And even if C.J. doesn’t come back, the pyramid structure that enabled his behavior still – at this point – remains in place. And human nature being what it is, it’s practically inevitable that the unchecked power and unchecked authority will just go to the head of the next guy who manages to claw his way to the top.
SGM members out there reading this, it’s time for you to demand that your organization changes its polity. There’s simply no other solution. Demand that your “local” churches change their Articles of Incorporation and become formally and legally accountable to the members of their congregations. Demand that the larger organization, Sovereign Grace Ministries, also changes its structure, so that your leaders must answer to an independent member-elected Board of Directors with disciplinary, hiring, and firing powers.
Nothing less will do.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Irv just read your post #43 was posted as I wrote.
To give you an answer I am still an SGMer…been here 22 years. Maybe my response will shed some light on my thoughts. Appreciate your post, maybe I have an unhealthy outlook on sin/redemption. I will consider.
I will say that I spent 10 years at CLC (was a new beleiver there) and I am GRATEFUL God called us to move…our experience in our current, smaller, rural SGM church is significently different than CLC. Still an SGM church, but I want to point out that they are all not identical, CLC was extreme and we have always been grateful we left and feel it was God’s grace and blessing He brought us out of CLC.
Irv – well said.
Gospel and the hope of our salvation Very well communicated. Jesus is Lord!
Matt–
In response to #128 from tge last post:
1. I think people need to read their Bibles more and put down these books by these preachers. Honestly, I don’t see how it’s helping. An atheist guy on Dee and Debs site made a great comment the other day, he said most Christians are spoon fed and have mo idea what their Bibles say but will claim the Word is very important to them, its life. Therefore, he cannot understand why atheists and non believers know more about what’s in it then we do. Maybe itsbbecause we spend so much time going to stupid conferences and reading books by all these wannabe theologians.
2. When I came to this site eventually I got to the point where I threw out a lot of books by these Reformed big dogs. I really don’t care much what they have to say.
3. Im refuse to give these books to anone else so their minds become polluted too.
4. Do you think it would make a difference if we stopped buying this stuff and learned to study our Bibkes more and the culture and language at that time?
5. I wonder if other religions, I.e. Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and others have so many mainstream commentaries and books about the holy books from their religious leaders? It seems that they spend far more time studying the holy book itself.
Any thoughts? Anyone?
Matt–
#50… My ears are wiiide open! (literally! I just paid $35 at tge ENT today for a completely clogged left ear with infection all fir them to take some tweezers and pull out some cotton that I apparently had forgotten about). So this darn ear is going work it’s tail off tonite lol! I’m listening, friend.
1. That all seems so… Dishonest. Idk why? It just does.
2. I was invited to go work in the bookstore at T4G last year and part of my compensation was like 18 or so books. I heard the bookstore was sometimes a busy madhouse. Think of a thousand or so men gathered together from different churches and they all worship the big dogs. Talking about major sales. This conference has generated so much money for Louisville, that I was told that they were making certain considerations (the city) for it including a new convention center, etc…
3. You are so right about their lack of real world living. I cannot begin to tell you some of the worst advice and reasoning I’ve heard.
4. And what about Challies and Piper? BTW, Piper pissed me off a long time ago talking about how writing his book was like child birth and he went through and likened each step to each stage in the birthing process. I really was offended. No lie. That really got under my skin because he was serious and I simply wanted to slap him and tell him that NEVER would writing a book be synonymous AT ALL eith birth pains and squeezing a kid out of your whonanny! How arrogant!
Hi Irv! :goodpost I have been reading the comments since C.J. stepped down and I’ve also read Part 1 of Brent’s loooong documentation. (I knew many of those men he mentioned–worked with them and under them while an employee at PDI…so so sad how these once earnest, simple Jesus lovers turned so political and ever so “polished” in such a sick way.) I responded once a few days ago but haven’t really felt led to jump in. Still taking it all in I guess. By the way, hello Adam and anyone else new here. I stumbled on this site back in 2007. I come back from time to time just to see how my blog friends are doing and curious to see what new shocking, almost always very tragic, stories have emerged (stories very similar to mine). Your comments though, Irv, really stood out to me. I especially liked this one: “Listen to how these men give such such attention, energy and focus to their sin — it is not just unhealthy – it is wrong!!! I now understand why they continue to preach the gospel to themselves and not to the poor and lost and why they worship the cross.” I have a ministry to the homeless on Skid Row here in L.A. I wanted to start one back in 1993 but when I asked my PDI/SGM pastors back then, they said we weren’t ready as a church. I always wondered why. Getting kicked out of that church in 1996 (which was no longer a PDI/SGM church by the way because Che Ahn, the senior pastor, broke away from them due to “doctrinal differences” with C.J.) was the best thing that could have happened to me. Since then, I have found a wonderful, healthy and truly caring church (yes, they do exist so please don’t give up) and the pastors here (who are full of wonderful imperfections and are not afraid to admit them in the pulpit) fully supported our ministry to the homeless which we began in 2005. Preaching to the poor and the lost on the streets each week is such a joy. It removes me from the ugly and dirty politics, excessive naval-gazing and ego-stroking crap I see in so many other churches and which I observed all too often during my 10-year allegiance to PDI and two of its churches, CLC and ALCC. When I think of my friends on Skid Row who repeatedly get drunk, get stoned, go back to prostitution and lie, cheat and steal to just survive on the streets…and yet they try so very hard to follow Jesus in their own desperate ways…and real tears flow each time they pray a prayer of repentance…I cannot imagine any of them ever being able to set foot upon any SGM church. No one would welcome them. No, everyone–especially the “blind guides”–would be so busy straining their gnats, they wouldn’t even realize they’ve already swallowed a camel (Matthew 23:24). As Jesus said, “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices…but you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness.” So preach on, Irv…we need to hear from a real teacher for a change :)
“3. Im refuse to give these books to anone else so their minds become polluted too.”
NLR, I had to laugh out loud at this one. We had an old fashioned book burning. This was a huge problem for us because we had a ton of books by Christian authors. I mean a ton. My wife absolutely refused to sell or give them away to pollute others because she is big time into people reading their bibles.
I remember how weird we felt doing this but a friend who was havng the same kind of convictions had a weekend type farm where we had a big bonfire on Reformation day. Like the irony?
We kept JC Ryle, Spurgeon, Edwards, Tozer…. many bios and that sort of stuff. I handed my wife “Love and Respect” to get it started. :o)PDL was the piece de resistance. Oh, and Beth Moore, too. (I can hear the outrage now)
“4. Do you think it would make a difference if we stopped buying this stuff and learned to study our Bibkes more and the culture and language at that time?”
YES! I still buy books but more along the lines of like “How to Read the Bible for All It’s Worth” by Gordon Fee. And his “Books of the Bible””, I just bought the other day. And Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes by Kenneth Baily, I bought at the same gime. So, I still buy the scholarly stuff. But, like you suggest, I am more interested in learning the language and culture of the time period which makes it come alive.
“5. I wonder if other religions, I.e. Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and others have so many mainstream commentaries and books about the holy books from their religious leaders? It seems that they spend far more time studying the holy book itself.”
No they don’t…not to the extent we do. The Christian market is huge and predictable. As my wife say, slap a fish on it and people will buy it.
Recently Deepak Chopra came out with a novel about Mohammad which I predict will become the go to book to show Mohammad in a very good light. I read it and was appalled at what it conveniently left out. In the geneology it left out all his other wives…including the 6 year old
They are catching on. Sorry to be off topic, Kris. He asked my favorite question. Mea culpa.
DB…interesting if we do know each other…I pray for CJ and others in SGM. Does anyone recall when CJ wanted to be called “Charles” not “CJ”? Somehow…I kept think of this when reading.
NRL,
I agree. I have seen non-believers know more what’s in the bible than me. I know sgm will never say don’t read the bible, but they always seem to promote books. Even in cg, it would be a book about the book of the bible, never the bible.
I was in CLC for 16 years and gradually saw more and more that concerned me, especially C.J.’s controlling nature, strong opinions, changing doctrine, etc. And most people in the church were worshipping at the altar of C.J. at that time. I left due to the over emphasis on sin and their aversion to Christian counseling.
I’ve had good experiences away from SGM, but recently came out of a church in which the pastor essentially asked me to go elsewhere after questioning him about something. He became immediately defensive and called me self-centered and self-focused. (For those who’ve attended CLC, how many times were those terms used on you there?) My former pastor was a narcissist, and as I read C.J.’s emails, I was shocked to see a lot of narcissistic characteristics in him – becoming immediately defensive when challenged, bullying people who stand up to him, not submitting to any authority above himself. God is showing mercy in having him step down.
I agree with Kris – may the structure of SGM change. May this be the beginning of good things to come. God help the church!
Matt–
That was awesome! Oh, I’m a girl BTW. Cute with cappuccino skin. But not that you need to know that–you’re married. But for the “others”! Lol. Don’t hate! Dont hate! A girls gotta work it even on a blog! Hahahahaha.
Okay, back to being serious. I do like Gordon Fee and some of the suggested readings on Christians for Biblical Equality. Equality–now THAT’S biblical (that’s for all the Christian gangstas who come through here on their drive-bys yelling how were not biblical.)
I’m reading Discovering biblical Equality and also What Paul Really Said About Women. I want to know more about the Judeo-Greek and hellenistic cultures. Dee wrote tge other day about other ancient historical books that were well preserved that helped express thought and culture during that time. (those ladies are some smart gals. They will school you quick. The kinda women you say yes ma’am and no ma’am to. Haha)
So my plan is to spend more time studying history. Someone posted before that if Christians knew more history about the faith, we’d know more about the heresies and false teachings that are recycling themselves through our religion. I think that is a real hefty challenge and a necessary one. That takes real study and the average Christian, myself included, doesn’t want to invest that level of work. Not sure I wanna sit down and read Chrysotom and Plato and Greek philosophers all the time when I can read easy stuff, you know what I mean?
I think if I get this meet up group going for survivors, thatbwe’ll have a book burning bonfire in the Fall. It will be cathartic! Hahaha!
Pia, I am blessed when you share. I still can’t get past page 9 of this awful document. (Awful due to the words written by the leaders of SGM, not awful due to its existence.) But the little I read I keep thinking, “Gnats & camels. Gnats & camels.”
Thank you, Irv. You have a pastor’s heart and every time you comment here, I sense that is how you feel for all of the survivors, refugees and those who still remain. :) Thank you so much and God bless your ministry to us all.
Sid
Matt, you and your wife still kept too many books in my opinion. :wink: Martin Luther, who wrote a bunch of books in his lifetime, supposedly said on his deathbed that people would be better off burning all of his books and only reading the bible.
I figure why wait until I am on my own death bed to realize this. If I want to have a closer relationship with Him, I am more intersted in what He has to say about Himself, rather than what some other mere human being has to say.
Tim, CJ was called “Charles” for some time in the 80s. Probably mid 80s. That’s when CLC was CLCC..Covenant Life Christian Community. CJ wore brown suits. He had hair. Larry was by his side.
Sid
Stunned–
I laughed out loud. Gnats and camels, gnats and camels. I keep swatting my hair and holding my nose. Ones a pest and the other stinks!!
Have to add, I love history books that help explain the culture and times the bible was written in. Very enlightening.
DB, I don’t think you know this Tim. Go back and read his first post more carefully.
“That was awesome! Oh, I’m a girl BTW. Cute with cappuccino skin. But not that you need to know that–you’re married. But for the “others”! Lol. Don’t hate! Dont hate! A girls gotta work it even on a blog! Hahahahaha.”
Oops. Sorry, ma’am. I hope you are dating and not “courting” :o)
‘Okay, back to being serious. I do like Gordon Fee and some of the suggested readings on Christians for Biblical Equality. Equality–now THAT’S biblical (that’s for all the Christian gangstas who come through here on their drive-bys yelling how were not biblical”
I am on your side, sister. Keep in mind, I owe my conviction to the Holy Spirit and my wife who never gave up.
“So my plan is to spend more time studying history. Someone posted before that if Christians knew more history about the faith, we’d know more about the heresies and false teachings that are recycling themselves through our religion.”
I know what you mean. An old heresy is being recycled right now in Reformed circles called Eternal Subordination of the Son. (I do not want to debate this here, guys)
On another note, I can remember reading the Roman household codes and it really helped me understand some things in the NT that I had been reading through 21st Century eyes. Same with the Talmud/Mishna…were I came across almost word for word what is in 1 Corin 14 and opened my eyes.
Church history is a bloody mess and people need to read it. One of the best books I accidently stumbled on was “The Step Children of the Reformation” by Leonard. It Really opened my eyes about Reformed history.
Read both sides, though. And read secular histories, too. I can remember reading an old bio of Mary, Queen of Scots and found nefarious information about John Knox that had been conveniently left out of Reformed literature. So, I did some more digging to affirm it from other sources.
And use older than 19th century lexicons. Amazing how word changes were made for our translations.
My wife told me to tell you to buy Catherine Bushnell’s “God’s Word to Women”. It is an investment.
She exegetes every passage, in context, studied Hebrew and Greek, and was a missionary to China back in the early 1900’s.
I love to read. Can you tell?
I like what Dee said over at The Wartburg Watch:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/07/08/c-j-mahaney’s-temporary-resignation-and-sovereign-grace-ministries-shades-of-john-piper/
matt #50 – thanks so much for describing the world of these celebrity pastors. It really puts into perspective what’s been going on.
I think something really changed in Mahaney when he brought in Joshua Harris. Young guy who’d had huge financial success, learning from his father how to leverage the home-school market to push product. I think Mahaney was picking his brains, more than Harris was learning “godliness” from Mahaney, during Harris’ internship at CLC. Josh taught Mahaney how to do the conference thing, how to build a list and market to it, how to write (or have ghost-written) a string of mediocre books that best-sell due to endorsements and cross-promoted conference selling (and the SGM bookstore sales, natch).
I think that’s when Mahaney – who had always been jealous of Larry’s book sales (and anything Larry, we now know!) – decided he was going to join the ranks of the seminary-trained, big-dog best-sell authors/conference speakers.
I’d like to write more about this, but am exhausted. Good night!
Matt:
Tell wifey I said thanks. I will def check that book out. I’ve been reading whatshisnames stuff over at CBE about the eternal subordination stuff. Blew my mind! I am loving it! I love that site. Where did you find the Roman household codes? I’ve read some of them in a Bristow’s book.
Also, the Talmud/Mishnah are very interesting. I went to a Jewish synagogue for a very short while. I found interesting the undersanding about women’s sexuality that really surprised me that was written very openly.
Some things I read are very interesting at times and make me think. Like I haven’t researched this topic AT ALL- but I was readin a mans blog one day and he spoke of certain words and text that got left out of Genesis dealing with the serpent and Eve and that be had seduced her and she conceived a child with him implying that fallen angels and women could have sex I guess. Anyways, I took it all lightly but found it interesting. Thing is, if tge Bible is ancient, then how do we know all of it was preserved? Amongst other questions. I am not afraid to even consider these things while holding firm to what I already believe. It will take much mor than that to change my mind. But I like not being afraid to consider and weigh.
I can’t wait to read the Talmud on 1 Cor. Do you have a lparticular link you could share? Thanks
Post #69: tge last question/remark is mine, not Dee’s. HTML oversight. Sorry
NRL– I don’t have all the facts but it seems like it’s a d**ned shamed the guys at CHBC didn’t Busta Move on you. I like a girl who has a brain and likes beer.
Matt- They have thought this through. They are in a very tough spot but have decided the “resignation” + stonewalling is the way to go. Tried and true practice.
Much remains out there that could blow this sky high. Al has demonstrated that he’s perfectly capable of sacrificing long time friends to the Cause.
Neither you nor I know where this will lead. I’m obviously not in your place, but I think this has rocked them harder than they ever anticipated. They have a plan but it might not work and if they begin to think it won’t work, CJ and SGM will be sacrificed. No doubt in my mind.
Hi all,
There are so many great comments the past few days that as I read a post and want to chime in I realize I’m two days behind. Ha Ha. I’ll eventually get caught up.
NLR, re #69, thank you for reposting Dee’s comments. She really hits the nail on the head regarding morality. If pg 139 in the 3rd document isn’t blackmail then I need a new dictionary.
Tim Cambell writes,
“One of the things I noticed when I was involved and considering our church relating to SGM was the unusual verbiage that was so common among the leaders….” a drippy over drawn humility language” that after a while was bizarre…the preacher boys all seemed to talk in this “CJ speak”. Does anyone know what I am talking about?”
I know exactly what you are talking about. It was very weird. They (most of the “elders”) also used the terms “excellent and tremendous,” with forced pronunciations. They NEVER cried, they WEPT. I know from friends that when a group of pastors from different churches got together, they could usually pick out the ones from CLC after they prayed because they all sounded the same. The speech has gotten even weirder, and now it seems everyone must be bald as well. I also remember the “season” (EVERYTHING was done in seasons) that CJ became Charles. Somehow, at least for a SEASON, Charles was more spiritual. I also remember how CJ mentioned his PRIDE frequently from the pulpit. I guess that makes makes him humble????
Hello everyone, hope all is well. Just wanted to chime in for a bit and share my initial reaction to CJ’s letter and the documents being discussed.
Being a former member of CLC and a child of a family who still attends, I’m shocked/speechless by all of this. I don’t know whether to be happy or concerned. I’m still very wary and non-trusting. I look forward to digesting the documents when I have the spare time. For now I’m just reading comments here and referring to excerpts mentioned by you fine folk!
From what I’ve read so far it gives my once considered hunches validation and allows me to connect the dots in many areas. It is very therapeutic considering all the years of therapy and challenges I’ve had with trying to wrap my head around life after SGM. Also I hope that it will now give new meaning to my anxieties concerning religion/churches in general to my husband as I plan on reading over all of this material with him. In small doses of course :wink:
Thank you all for being such a supportive group!
17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you. (Hebrews 13)
One thing sure is clear, especially with Mahaney, these top SGM Leaders appear to have no concern about one day having to give an account to God for their actions. They are quick to to teach the first potion of the passage where it teaches about submission to their authority but seem to ignore the passage about having to give an account.
Did Mahaney ever consider that one day he will have to give an account to God for the actions that recorded in these leaked documents?
On the other hand, having read a book titled “The Lucifer Effect” Mahaney is sadly the product of the position he was put in. This book describes what happened in the Stanford Prision experiment when some college students were given a lot of power. It changed them.
The author of the book indicates that is isn’t always the case of a person being a bad apple but the person being placed in a “bad barrell” that leads them to becoming a bad apple.
With Mahaney, being put in a position where he wasn’t to be questioned (like a pope) and was revered and obeyed helped make the nacissist and possibly sociopath that we see recorded in these documents.
If this environment is what helped make him this way then it just shows SGM needs to change their structure so that the next person (like Dave Harvey) doesn’t become the person Mahaney became.
Name–
Hey, thanks! :wink: Those weak-minded cheese balls couldn’t handke me. They need too much handholding and cant live life outside of their bubble. I’m definitely a lady but I can run with the guys too, still be a lady but throw a softball through your chest with some lip gloss on and talk theology while sipping my beer legs crossed and peep toe pumps! Haha
Trust me, they did ME a favor by leaving me alone. I’m ever so grateful! So so grateful. And anyways, they all think they should be pastors and I’m not cut to be a
Pastors wife.
On that topic–I’ve never seen so many men think they were cut for the ministry. It blow my mind. I always new when some guy who works on the Hill or for Dod started hanging out with the right crowds–getting his doses of manliness in the theology man circles and glorious brotherhood. All of a sudden, yep! He’s going to do an internship and shortly thereafter, he’s going to Louisville. All the darn time. So freaking predictable, these dudes. They become enamored with Mark. They wanna be him so bad. Soon they start talking like him, preaching like him, and the rest is history.
Most of the pastorate writes books and publishes them. Most of the staff are paid well. You have people living a vert decent DC life in this ministry. Then you have African American Ron who comes for a weekender and is interested in Urban ministry see all this cushy goodness and before you know it, he’s not returning back to that urban community that he wants to transform with the Gospel. He wants to do an internship and stay on after and then go to Louisvilke and is now open to “other” opportunities now, like following these well-to-do dudes around to conferences and he’s forgotten all about his heart and plans for urban ministry.
The church is very close to rougher urban neighborhoods in Southeast and Northeast DC and yet no one will go. All the missions people want to go to Southeast Asia and the wannabe pastors want to go to Louisville and come back or go to a church that can pay them a decent salary.
I grew up with pastors whi had full-time day jobs because their congregations had no money and dude needed to work. These men dnt want to have to hustle another job or work in a community that cannot pay them. But most preachers back in the day knew that their calling was one that did nit pay well. But you don’t see them trying to live like the Puritans in that way, now do you?
Mind you, I was only there 18 months and all that I speak of here and on this blog in general is what I’ve been able to discern in that amount of time. It’s a lot to even think about.
Tim–
The insider language is real and most of it’s totally loaded.
Oh and Name–
It was mostly because my skin wasn’t the right color and I didntn ooze submission and looking for a king to rule over me. Apparently looking for a mutual partner and not a dad will keep you single in the circles. I have a dad and trust me, he is more than I can handle! Lol
Stick around though. I might be doing a meet up soon.
@ NLR –
It was mostly because my skin wasn’t the right color and I didntn ooze submission and looking for a king to rule over me. Apparently looking for a mutual partner and not a dad will keep you single in the circles.
True dat! (I’m white, but on the rest – preach it, sister!)
Numo make NLR laugh. Tee-hee!
Now, Numo, you know girls can’t preach. Silly Goose!
Thoughts continue to tumble…
Anybody know when the reconciliation with Larry T took place? A dollar to a donut it happened AFTER Brent’s 95 Theses were first nailed to the door.
First order of business: Neutralize the Larry situation — apologize, ask forgiveness — pump that for all it’s worth so the crime becomes a moot point.
When CJ carefully crafted his letter he used Larry T to great advantage, But he didn’t see Wikileaks coming. He figured nobody’d ever know about the blackmail.
So now, I imagine the idea might be to attempt to discredit Brent — characterize him as the loose cannon, the disgruntled postal worker, the nutcase with the axe to grind, etc. But Brent’s documentation is far too detailed for that to work. Wonder how Larry’s feeling about the big apology now?
What to do, what to do about Richmond? KW is hanging by a thread, Mickey’s in there taking potshots with a hand-held fire extinguisher — but the place is already engulfed, and Brent’s documents are soaked in gasoline — four-alarm fire.
Frank Peretti could make millions off this one. Too bad they never liked his stuff — they could sell it in the bookstore and raise Ceej an extra $1500/year for airfare expenses.
NLR,
Which SGM church did you attend, you sound familiar.
Chuck 2.0
Oh for Pete’s sake!
I go away for a few months to peruse a business venture and when I come back, it takes me nearly six hours to catch up on today’s news alone.
Y’all are posting faster than I can read it seams.
I haven’t even started to read the “documents” yet.
I keep getting this image in my mind as I read: CJ is standing in his kitchen holding poles in each hand while spinning plates are crashing to the floor around him…..
Griz, in the previous thread, to hear of your daughter’s well being was like a drink of cool clear water on a hot day.
God bless you & your family.
Kris, last thread post #372: I laughed till I cried.
This re-entry thing is like being shot from a cannon though.
NLR, You make an old fat cowboy laugh. Love ya sis…
Ceege, you did this to yourself. Pardon me if I don’t cry for ya. Your system and your guys came after my wife. I had to step in like a rodeo clown to get the Pastor and the Shankster to take their attention off her.
Remember this, when you go after a mans wife, your playing with serious danger boy! (As far as I’m concerned, you are as guilty as they.) So take your licks from your guys and stay down. Take your millions and have your wife teach you how to fish.
That should do for now. :cowboyup
@ NRL: you make numo laugh, 2. [giggles]
About women preachin’ – I declare! (As in, I haven’t been following that script for a long time. ;))
Name: I can relate. Different location, same messed up relationships between the sexes. I’m white so I didn’t feel the racial aspect but I bear in my body (actually my mind) proof that I did the time in Reformed Baptist land. I have wounds but like you I feel they did me a favor.
Trust me, the smartest guys I ever knew from CHBC or SEBTS or SBTS are gone from those places now. We all have our reasons for becoming involved in wherever we are. They’re not to be discussed publicly. We all have our reasons why we’re no longer there. They don’t need to be discussed: it’s obvious why we’re gone.
I agree about your comments regarding bi-vocational pastors as well as your observations about other-than-appropriately-masculine behavior from the guys you encountered. You need to be aware that they learned it honest but you need not find it appropriate or attractive.
I meant to say NRL but I said Name. haha
An Open Letter to Sovereign Grace Ministries:
UNCONDITIONAL. UNQUALIFIED. PERMANENT. REMOVAL. FROM. MINISTRY.
Nothing less will truly be adequate or convincing…and that is just a start.
10 stinking years of these egregious patterns of sin? Only now CJ is finally getting around to making obeisance?? …after he had no other recourse due to the clarion call.
Nothing short of a complete dismantling and reorganization of your polity structure is required.
In keeping with fashion, many of you should have your 72-hour walking papers handed to you.
I am ashamed that I associated my name with PDI/SGM for 10 years.
PLEASE, for the sake of the Gospel, do the right thing and do it quickly.
Rick Venglarcik (Darkwingbird) SGC Chesapeake, 1993-2003
Kris, I respectfully emailed Challies long ago on this and received no response.
Everyone needs to read Matt’s entire post #50.
“I say, RUN, to Christ. Study to show yourself approved. You don’t need them. They make merchandise of the Gospel.”
Could these men be like the money changers in Christ’s sight?
I pray God that leads all who are disillusioned by spiritually abusive groups like SGM do find a church home with genuine believers given guidance by godly pastors. The church is important.
Matt said:
“If people only knew the serious business aspect of this, they would be convicted to forget all of them and just study with other nobody believers.
My wife consulted in Christian marketing for several years and that is what convicted her…through that she was able to work on me through the word and point out the cognative dissonance of what was taking place.
These guys do not live in the real world. They live in a ministry bubble. Most of them have nothing to tell us concerning living in the world as believers. They are insulated and live very comfortably.”
Sadly even if men started out with pure motives it is easy to get sucked up into the money side of this.
Maybe money will be the only thing that gets SGM Leaders attention. Maybe if enough SGM Members withhold their tithes and offerings until they are satisfied that SGM Leaders are going to do the proper house cleaning that will get the the leaders attention.
I hate to be skeptical but it wouldn’t surprise me if SGM Leaders successfully put the “wool” over SGM Members eyes about how serious what has come out.
Matt, Your # 50 does say alot about how the system is worked and played out….I still go back to Ten Shekels and a Shirt by Paris Reidhead. A classic sermon about sold out leaders who are not sold out to God either.
btw, we threw away so many of our books from sgm/pdi years ago-they went into the trash to. We didn’t want anyone else to read them.
This entire fiasco just reminds me of a scripture Billy Graham preached every sermon, “Be sure your sin will find you out.”
Tangled Mess, I am so glad to hear that these documents have been helpful for you!
People often don’t realize what God can use to bring healing to people’s lives. And healing certainly glorifies God. There are too many of us that think that if something doesn’t seem “nice” that it can’t be good. Oh, how wrong we are in those times!
You are stronger than I if you have gotten through a tenth of those documents, but as long as in the long run it’s good for you, then I’m glad you’ve waded through. The truth really does set you free.
Stunned
I have a feeling that sgm churches will go something like this. Cj is going through a tough time right now. We all need to pray for him so get into small groups and each person begin to pray. I know that my old sgm church will also announce it in the service.
Irv I loved your last comment, especially this part:
“Let me say this brethren — sin is alive and well (as displayed through the 600 pages) – it is US who have died to sin and made alive in the spirit of life in Christ Jesus!!! A life focused on killing sin will be a life continually entangled in the web of sin and judgment – no man can win this battle. Jesus overcame sin through His perfection, died bearing our sins on the cross, we are buried with him and raised with him in the resurrected life and seated with Him in the heavenlies.
He exchanged our unrighteousness for His righteousness. He now lives in us. He isn’t trying to kill sin he died for us because of sin. To live the way your leaders have lived is to negate the work of the cross and making righteousness a human accomplishment – no can do my brethren!!!
AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!!
Chuck–
Naw. I went to CHBC.
Defender–
:lol:
Name–
I’d like to meet you and share stories over beer! :wink:
One thing that bothers me about the defenders who STILL come here to defend CJ is that what they ignore about bringing sin to the light. Why is it that CJ gets a free pass to be as vague as he would like, but when his sins are brought to the light his defenders rush to his rescue and say well at least he was being humble. I think it really is a result of the culture the A-Team has created, a culture of “believing the best” about their leaders…I know that this sounds really conspiracy-theory-esque, but CJ’s happiest place sermon could very well have been a pre-emptive strike against anything that might come out against him, and wow a lot of people have fallen for it. hook, line, and sinker.
FYI – I posted an essay on my blog: http://virginiaknowles.blogspot.com/2011/07/my-thoughts-on-cj-mahaney-and-sovereign.html
Questions, Anger (. . . not “righteous anger”, just anger), and More Questions
It is probably reasonable to infer that the volumes of material published on the wiki, which range from apparent criminal conduct to childish bullying wrapped-up in “Christianese” terms, are but a microscopic part of the shameful behavior going on over these last 20 or 30 years. Shame on them.
Despite the efforts of these so called men to perpetuate their self-aggrandizing, economic enterprise, God still touched the lives of many with the truth of the Gospel. How many more could have been reached? How many were wounded and left spiritually dead or dying along the the road of PDI/SGM glory . . . not the road that leads to glory for God, but that horrific wrong-turn route that intends to substitute glory for a few people who think themselves men.
Behind this cloud of pastoral hurt feelings, good-old-boy fraud and icy-cold tales of blackmail, there still remains vast numbers of us little, inconsequential people that bought the books, went to Celebration, attended home group/care group, foolishly followed the latest pop theology that our leaders were flogging and thought we could trust our leaders . . . right up until it happened.
“It” varied for each of us little people. Sometimes it was a family torn apart. Sometimes it was a child molested. There are probably a few suicides and spiritual deaths along the way as well. Regardless of what “it” was, the little people that didn’t fit into the book-writing, conference-circuit, mutual admiration, holier than thou, happiest place on earth, were dispensable.
Despite the pain that our personal “it” caused our family, I am thankful that it allowed us to move beyond the control of the spiritual evil that seemed to quickly take so many God-loving Pastors and turn them into a dark shadow of their former selves.
There was deep sadness at losing contact with people that were so much a part of our lives when we were “deleted” from membership. Despite that pain, hindsight brings a gratefulness that the “deletion” happened. Though we lost touch with friends, we were freed to follow God’s leading, rather than a shiny, happy, twisted perversion marketed through bookstores and conferences to enrich CJ and Company.
When will these other so-called pastors and leaders follow CJ’s claimed process and step-down? Who will answer for these lives destroyed? The simple answer . . . at least from an Earthly perspective . . . is: Never will they step down; and nobody will answer for the lives destroyed.
In the economy of this world, the damage control plans have been activated. There are too many other powerful and wealthy Christian leaders that have linked themselves to CJ Incorporated and the Shiny Happy SGM World to let it all go. If they were to allow it all to fail, the resultant manure splash would soil their white robes. They may try to reduce the size of the splash by cutting CJ loose, but then there are still all of those conference recordings, co-authored books and book endorsements. Sill a pretty big poo-splash.
Think of the good that could happen if there were a real transformation in SGM. Church planting in unchurched or underchurched communities, rather than predominately White, upper income areas. Stray thoughts that (gasp) women could teach and preach and lead. Clear child-protection measures. An outbreak of actual servant leaders, rather than leaders with servants.
God is certainly big enough to do it . . . sadly, all evidence indicates that the majority of SGM leaders are not.
A great book that every current or former SGMer should read is 52 Lies Heard in Church Every Sunday: …And Why the Truth Is So Much Better by Steve McVey. This book along with Grace Walk: What You’ve Always Wanted in the Christian Life by the same author have done so much to set me free from all of the legalism and sin-focus garbage that SGM is and had ingrained in me during the years I was a prisoner there. God has used the truth in these books not only to set me free, but also to bring the joy of walking with Him back into my life! They have been a catalyst to bring me to a freedom in Christ I had not known for years. (PDI/SGM really messes people up!)
Matt – #50 is SOOOOOOO good!! Thank you!!
Vida – EXCELLENT blog post!!!