Some First Impressions of Josh Harris’ July 10 Sunday Morning Message To Covenant Life Church
July 10, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Guy and I have just about finished listening to the message Josh Harris gave to CLC this morning.
We thought he did a great job of acknowledging issues openly. He certainly said more, admitted more, than any leader ever has before.
But we were really disappointed that in his focus on “the Lord’s discipline,” he made several references to the enemies of Israel, and how God used “even the ungodly nations” to bring chastisement to His people.
Perhaps Josh Harris did not mean it this way, but I resent the implication that “the blogs” are being run by “ungodly” people…that “the blogs” are some sort of “ungodly” tool that God is using to discipline SGM because He loves them so much.
I also found it difficult to sit through the part where Josh addresses Brent Detwiler’s documents. He states several times that while the documents do “contain true truths,” the documents do not present the “total” truth…and that “all historians have biases.”
I think it’s a cheap shot at Mr. Detwiler, to try to act like his presentation of CJ’s own emails could somehow contain Brent’s biases. I mean – really?
Again, I think it’s wonderful that Josh Harris stood up in front of his church and admitted that specific problems exist.
But did he have to try and get in his digs at Mr. Detwiler’s documents and “the blogs,” by calling into question the documents’ “bias” and insinuating that “the blogs” are little more than some pagan instruments (like the Philistines)?
That disappoints me. Greatly.
Josh Harris, we are your brothers and sisters in the Lord. We have been here, providing an open forum for the victims of your corrupt system, showing them the love of Jesus and trying to speak the truth. We’re NOT the “Assyrians” or the “Philistines.” We’re not some ugly ungodly pagans. To try and act like SGM is akin to God’s chosen people while SGM’s critics are unholy gentiles is a blot on what otherwise could have been a bold statement of true humility.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
I want to reiterate that it was encouraging to hear such an open acknowledgement of certain problems.
I do echo what “Stunned” asked in the previous thread, though:
Also, does anyone join me in finding something disturbing about putting the focus on “God’s discipline,” with further emphasis on “putting off sin,” as though the members are somehow being chastised for the failings of their leaders?
The analogy that keeps coming to mind is a scene from the movie “Miracle”, about the 1980 US hockey team. When they were playing the russians, and had them losing in the final seconds of the game, the Russian coach didn’t pull the goalie (for non-hockey fans, it is practice to pull the goalie out of the net to allow for another player to be on the ice, creating a better chance of scoring).
As the US team was anticipating the win, the were amazed that the Russian goalie was still in net. The US coach, Herb Brooks (played by Kurt Russell) realized that they didn’t know what to do, since they (the Russians) had never been in a losing situation before.
It’s almost like that with the SGM leadership…they’ve never been in this situation before. They are unable to control the flow of information.
I think Josh is a nice guy. I think he is trying. However, why didnt he say this months ago. Why now? Also, I do think that only because someone leaked the documents online, they were honest. I have mixed feelings about this. I’m not sure what I think which is why this post from me may seem I’m taking both sides.
I did attend my former SG church today, even though I said i wouldnt. I was curious to what they would say. My senior pastor didn’t mention the documents at all. He just said that there were other former sg pastors bringing charges against CJ. He told us to pray for him and not to gossip.
However, I do think that they need to know exactly what happened so the truth can come out. Also, i do hope the meeting at clc is put online because it involves sgm. Thats my opinion.
Kris and Guy,
I don’t see it the way you’re seeing it at all. I’m very encouraged by this message.
I am hopeful in Christ. It’s not everything, but its an important beginning.
I don’t want to be like Jonah, who didn’t want the people of Ninevah to repent and experience God’s mercy. I have been dismayed and disgusted with sgm for a long time now and part of me wants to hold onto that and for them to continue to behave in a way that justifies my disgust, but I think love hopes. Therefore I want to rejoice in whatever steps they take toward change and I want to support and encourage that. Even if its just a small step….
God help us all…
Bethany said, in the previous thread (which is now closed),
I can see why you’d think that. It will be very interesting to see what happens, especially at the family meeting tonight.
I tend to think that there’s absolutely no way they can continue on without making significant changes. Yes, there was a huge outburst of applause for CJ at the end of Josh’s message, and yes, SGMers have been conditioned for far too long to “believe the best” of their leaders, with no ability to dig deeper or do anything if they suspect otherwise. But those documents speak for themselves. Sure, they may contain Brent’s point of view, but by and large they are so broad and deep in scope that there’s just too much objective material there for people to try and pretend to themselves that Mr. Detwiler somehow “spun” things to make himself look better and CJ look worse.
Just finished listening to it as well. I am glad that he didn’t ignore the elephant in the room today. And I wonder what the visitors [ if there were any?] thought. But in light of the subject and what was being said I didn’t like his use of humor. I know the pastors all do it. Making their ‘points’, but still it seemed to downplay the seriousness and soberness of what he was speaking about.
And to say that all the members should now expect some sort of discipline? What was he referring to? Or did I hear that wrong?
I continue to be amazed that you guys would use the victim card in this situation. This is not about you. God has used you to provide a context for those who have been hurt. I don’t believe that you are to pat yourselves on the back over and over channeling the spirit of David over Goliath. There seems to be a pattern that when steps are taken to address serious issues, you are able to find chinks in the armor. “It wasn’t soon enough” or “It wasn’t said the way we think it should have been said” or “We were encouraged BUT” Its always those BIG BUTS that get us into trouble. For crying out loud, let the folks begin to work through this process. Right now they’re trying to drink out of a fire hydrant! Pray, Pray, Pray. The world is watching to see if the church of Jesus Christ will emerge triumphant. By the way, it will. For the most part, these churches are filled with people who love God and are now devastated to see what they’ve given their lives to, crumbling around them. We desperately need the peace of God that passes all understanding!
Wow, did Josh just say sgm was a denomination? He said something along the lines how God could punish a whole denomination, or something like that. For the longest time they would say they were not a denomination.
Good try. Not buying any of it. The ONLY reason that anyone is hearing about this now is that those documents are PROOF of all the coverup and sin. Sad to say it reads like lawyer communication. Not men of God. I believe it is a cult and needs to be abolished. Hopefully, the little guys in this corporation won’t be the ones who take the fall in all of it.
I hope Josh will acknowledge as time goes on that it is the individual LEADERS of SGM who are being called into question rather than use the legal business entity of “Sovereign Grace Ministries” which puts a less personal accountability spin to these serious issues.
God may cause the leadership to adjust the bylaws, or dismantle SGM completely. But it is the individuals who make up the leadership who need to be held accountable for their individual decisions and actions.
Secondly, we’ve never delved into the important theological topic of Israel (past, present, future) but it is apparent to me that equating the business entity of SGM to the chosen nation of Israel is as off base as calling these blogs Satan’s work.
Josh, these blogs tended the sheep YOU and SGM had left bleeding and discarded. Insert icon: Jewish momma shaking pointer finger.
I will be praying for you and your leaders, Josh, because I know that you are on a quest to fix things and fixing things just might mean you need to unravel everything you thought you once knew and held dear. Don’t hang onto straw men. Hang onto Jesus. Learn from Him for His ways are Holy and Awesome.
Thank you, Kris and Guy, for caring for the bleeding sheep. You exemplify the Good Shepherd’s love.
Joel,
I think you misunderstood me. I’m encouraged. I even said it’s the most open acknowledgement of SGM’s issues that a pastor has ever given.
If Josh is as contrite and ready for change as he claims, then he’ll welcome my response and the opportunity to clarify that he does NOT view this site and SGM Refuge as some sort of “unholy Philistines.”
I continue to resent that implication.
I’m thinking real change would be better represented by an apology to “the blogs” for how many times pastors minimized the problems being discussed here.
You’re absolutely correct, Gene, regarding them drinking from the firehose. However, there is always going to be a level of distrust, especially from those that have seen it before. I, for one, am interested in seeing the future.
Mr. Prince,
Why is it that your comments don’t ever say anything nice to us? I genuinely want to know that. I want to think well of you, but in the 3 or 4 comments you’ve left, you’ve seemed like nothing but a critical crankypants toward this site.
Lynn — The use of “denomination” up front struck me as well. I have to wonder if (a) it was intentional; and (b) was meant to signal some sort of normalization process in view. That is, “first thing, it is important for the sake of change that since we waddle, swim and quack, we should stop calling ourselves something different than a duck.”
Kris….back in January Josh gave his speech likening us all to Sanballat, who opposed Nehemiah. This is just another verse of the same sick song. I get tired of all the sympathy for poor Josh while he equates born again former SGM members as the enemies of Israel.
You will know there has been repentance when they speak to and make restitution for the sex abuse cover ups, and to the question that has come up repeatedly about why Megan can leave Kerrin and many abused women had to stay with husbands who beat them up. That is just starters, the main dish is the endless enabling of CJ by the rest of the A team for so many years.
“Ungodly nations”…give me a break. If it wasn’t so psychobabble I’d say they are mentally ill and out of touch with reality, but I don’t want Powlison to get mad at me.
Kris- thanks again for all you do.
Clearly, Josh is not offended by the idea that sgm is a denomination.
I’m with Joel and have to disagree with your assessment – the correlation to the Philistines or Amelikites was because, as we know, members do view these blogs as evil and JH was warning them not to dismiss them because of the harshness of the wording or because they don’t like what people are saying here. In fact, I found it reassuring that he was acknowledging the truth of what’s been said all along and that these blogs are instruments of God.
@Red Crab – It was clear this discipline was of the leaders primarily and SGM as a whole and that they are already being disciplined. The implication was that the congregation will feel the effects of that chastising and is therefore being disciplined as well. Which is fair – not everyone who was hurt in an SG church was hurt solely by their leaders, many were hurt by members as well. Everyone has to do self-examination and accept that things will and have to change. Certain doctrines held dear will have to be let go of. There are those who love that there aren’t votes and they don’t have to be involved in lengthy debates and decision making processes. This will change. Some are going through serious disillusionment. This is all apart of the discipline process.
In all I’m encouraged. My husband and I have been saying for a long time that SG is too top heavy and needs to strike a balance between elder led and congregationalism.
I do hope that someone from here will be in attendance at tonight’s meeting, take notes and give us the answers given to the questions JH listed at the top of his sermon.
Kris, I’m sure you are a very nice lady who loves God and his church. How did I do? I’ll work on not being such a crankypants. Nobody wants to be known as a crankypants.
Something to consider is when Nathan confronted David with his sin and it was not until it was right there in his face (“You are the man!”) that he finally got it. Josh and Co. have been buying into the lies (the same lies we all bought into at one point) about the supposed superiority of SGM over all other churches. I think it is fair to wait and see but unfair to judge his heart now until you see the fruit of his public confession.
Because everyone who was ever a member of SGM should have the same consideration and care and involvement as the people who are current members. My 11 years in 3 different SG churches is a far larger experience of CJ’s (and the other SG leaders’) broken ministry than someone who joined CLC 3 weeks ago or even 3 years ago.
I hope beyond hope that tonight’s meeting, in it’s entirety, is posted on the internet. In fact, they should go ahead and give it to Kris and Jim so they can post the links on their blogs.
Sidney
“Historian Bias”…my butt. These are actual emails. Actual correspondence. And guess what….tables are turned my brothers. This is the same junk you pull on your laity. Shame on you. Poetic justice in my humble opinion.
Mr. Prince,
Thank you! :D
Of course, people at SGM have thought I was a constant crankypants, so I guess we’re even.
————–
Melody,
I guess what’s strange to me is, why the need to use emotionally loaded “good guys versus bad guys” terminology, like “Philistines”? Why not just say, “Even though what’s said online may not be phrased up just how we like it, we’ve been wrong to ignore the blogs”? Or something to that effect?
And, just to be clear, I’m NOT judging Josh’s heart. He sounded very contrite, and it will be very interesting to see how things change.
HighChurch said,
Yep.
I was curious about why Josh thought it was necessary to point out Mr. Detwiler’s “bias.” Can’t the CLC congregation be trusted to read the documents and draw their own conclusions as to the presence of any “bias”?
Kris, I think I understand better what you mean. I guess this is more disillusioning for me then vindication, so I’m not so sensitive to the wording/correlations of things. Much of the hurt and frustration people expressed here I relate to because of abuse I experienced at my former non- SG church. I read the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse and thought I’d discerned a good church & denomination based on what I learned. In the end, what I’m saying is that this isn’t as emotionally charged for me as it would be if I’d experienced abuse in an SG church and had been a long time contributor here.
As to any “bias” could it be that the bias was directed solely at CJ whereas the blame can be placed on the shoulders of many men and the faulty system? Seems to me it’s more a caution against making CJ the scapegoat as many here fear would happen.
Josh Harris:
I AM NOT A CRITIC AND I AM NOT A DETRACTOR.
I am your sister in Christ. I wouldn’t give 2 hoots about your denomination if not for people very close to me and the fact that your methodologies twisted my understanding of Jesus for 11 years.
Sorry. Not buying it. Not for a second.
Oh come on, Kris. This is a very hopeful step and you have contributed to pushing sgm to this point. Be glad that sgm’s collective eyes are opening! Don’t nitpick because Josh didn’t say absolutely everything the way YOU think he should have said it. It is self-evident that Brent’s docs are going to contain Brent’s bias. Some of the situations I know about – Brent clearly left out things that would implicate himself! He tells a lot of truth, but it is selective truth-telling in some ways. There’s enough there from the emails for everyone to “get” that CJ doesn’t appreciate opposition, reacts badly when confronted and feels a sense of entitlement.
Ok..and I will say that I am very grateful that Josh admitted the arrogance in the whole “happiest place on earth” mentality. ….(soundest doctrine, reformed and charismatic, best church in the world, etc)
Thanks, Josh. That was good.
This is an excellent example of why two blogs are necessary.
Kris: “you’ve seemed like nothing but a critical crankypants toward this site.”
Jim: “That was a nice way of saying I could give a rat’s ass about Mark’s (Mullery) stated opinion about anything”
I love diversity… :D
Thought some folks might want to see the Goliath we were up against. Keep in mind how eager they are to from those they’ve hurt.
http://www.facebook.com/sovgracefairfax
Pastor LG is just a quick scroll down, teaching on Preeminent Parenting. 6/19/11
Keep in mind how eager they are to HEAR from those they’ve hurt.
Oh, but Joel –
I can’t just be glad. After all, I’m nothin’ but a godless Philistine. We heathens can’t be glad. :D
Directly quoted emails are “historical bias” by Brent? Really? Am I missing something. Are the sheep not even able to interpret directly quoted emails at face value?
Jerry,
Could the “historical bias” refer to Brent’s running commentary on the information?
Just a thought.
Chuck 2.0
This is why I will continually caution folks to be guarded…it’s the way they word things that reveal a lot.
Just a couple of thoughts. Trust should be difficult to lose or was never trust at all. Once lost, however, it has to be earned again if you want it back. It’s a separate issue from forgiveness. Really. SGM leadership, corporately and individually should have to earn it back. This is just the beginning but I think it is a beginning. Also, I love the fact that there is a range of responses/opinions expressed here within the common theme’s including the need for God’s justice. That glorifies God. I too noted the “Philistine” illustration. But I think Josh was employing hyperbole to emphasize that SGM leadership’s, his own, and his audience’s learned negative reactions to(unnamed) Internet critics don’t preclude their responsibility to hear truth. In other words, even if SGMSurvivors is the Assyrians (hyperbole) we still have to receive God’s discipline.
I can report that BD is recommending that people listen to JH’s msg from today. Apparently, BD wasn’t insulted by JH saying that Brent’s remarks are biased.
I have to say that Josh is correct that every historian is biased. All of them use original documents (though not usually quoted quite as ruthlessly as Brent did)but they all interpret. Having reviewed all 600+ pages he does add a lot of annotation and commentary (rightly so.) And he does acknowledge his own bias. Whatever else BD is he is a scholar. I was also struck by what Josh didn’t say. He didn’t say not to gossip. He didn’t steer them away from the blogs or the documents (in fact, he begged the question and I bet some folks didn’t know either existed.) He didn’t say (despite his statement of continued love and friendship for CJ) that he or his audience did or should think more highly of CJ than ever. He didn’t make an appeal to the congregation or to those outside it to come to them if they’ve been injured by the system. Those are just a few I noticed.
If you have cucumber slices on your eyes after reading 1) the 600 pages and 2) ALL the various blogs’ comments pro/anti/perplexed, you might like to take them off long enough (are they off now, I wonder?) to give this post a quick scan:
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2011/07/cj-mahaney-and-sgm-systemic-approach-to.html
It’s a rather breezy, humorous, and on-the-money boil-down of what’s going on. If you need to laugh a little at this point, please click and read.
Two comments about Josh this morning: 1) A good beginning, sir, though ANY praise of Mahaney now just sounds . . . is “obscene” too strong a word? ; 2) why not recommend people fast from now till your Wednesday meeting, instead of just a meal on Wednesday? You need as many people as humbled and hearing God as possible, so you can get that congregational input you just invited! They can “do hard things”!
I am new to this blog, but not new to SGM and the abuse. But, I suggest we cut the in-fighting.
Gene is right that we should pray. Perhaps this situation will finally change hearts and minds. That is the goal, not further pain for them or for anyone.
On the other hand, people are still hurting from the abusive and arrogant culture — hundreds and thousands of us. We should recognize and pray about that too. Perhaps this situation will finally bring about confession and repentence of such, and hearts can finally be healed.
Forget about the “enemy” allegations. I.e., let them slide. Christ was accused of worse. Joseph was accused of the same. The NT apostles were accused of worse. The “sticks and stones” allegations are not the issue. The actual abuse proliferated on real people is the issue. Families and friends are still seared and separated. That is what we should pray about.
Stick to the main points and don’t get distracted by little things (even if they are temptingly painful). Pray for reform, pray for true confession, pray for healing, pray for true humility (not the fake stuff).
And don’t sucumb to the temptation to bicker internally. The enemy is not us or them; it’s the Devil and his lies. Each side can look internally and turn away. Pray that this situation is used to reveal actual sin, leading to actual repentence.
Marc
As I recall, the Assyrians were then destroyed by God as punishment for what they did to Israel.
So, if Josh is correct, we really go it coming now!
(I’m not all that concerned BTW.)
Kris,
Am I out again already? I just came back!
Chuck 2.0
Older and wiser…and older
Keepinstep,thank you for that link. Loved it.
Don’t be so quick to assume that Josh is calling the blogs “the Enemy”. God is doing something amazing here, and if our only desire is to see SGM burn, then we are agreeing with Satan. God wants to bring about repentance, Satan is the Destroyer. I am praying that the church that I poured 20+ years of my life into is going to repent and change. It happened with Herbert W.Armstrong’s “The Worldwide Church of God” it can happen with SGM.If the “Boston Church” can undergo a huge revival and repentance (yeah, I know there are some diehards who want to keep the heavy handed discipleship going) then there is hope for a church movement that we all spent muc time loving and being a part of. I am sure when Jesus turned to the one thief and said “Today, you will be with me in paradise” there were many around the crosses screaming their hatred because of how much “hurt” that thief had inflicted on them, and they wanted to see vengeance.I would rather see Grace than the Law.
I agree it’s a very good start. My husband and I just finished listening…though parts of it make me want to scream because of ridiculous (in my opinion) doctrine, the parts where he actually acknowledges serious problems and the need to change the whole system were very encouraging to me. I kept thinking, does DH know Josh is saying this stuff???
I don’t know, Josh sounds extremely sincere. If you try to think of it from his perspective I think we can understand he might be experiencing a serious shaking of his whole world. I don’t expect his thinking on everything to change at once but it seems to me there are monumental changes already happening there. I hope and pray it continues.
All in all, I was encouraged.
That Coffee Trader News blog is great, keepinstep!
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2011/07/cj-mahaney-and-sgm-systemic-approach-to.html
Paul so agree! Grace rather than the Law. What I find encouraging is Josh said some things I told them YEARS ago. So someone is at least hearing it from someone. Now I hope they start to change the polity.
No more imposed masochism for me. LMAO
Much like this — :beat