A Stenographer’s Notes – Part 1 From Covenant Life Church’s July 10, 2011 Family Meeting
July 11, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
From our friend “The Stenographer” comes the following set of notes:
7/10/11
Covenant Life Church (CLC) Family Meeting, led by Josh Harris (JH) – Part 1
The meeting began with a time of worship, followed by JH taking the mike. The following are my efforts at notes of what was said, but I’m not perfect, so please forgive the lapses or errors that become obvious when the actual audio gets posted.
JH: “CJ Will come and share, and after that he will be released and we will answer questions.
“Things that we want to cover tonight:
“We want to make it clear that it is all about him. He welcomes your questions. He wants to hear from people in CLC, answer their questions. He wants you to be able to ask questions and not feel constrained.
[missed wording of Josh thanking CJ] “Let’s welcome him as he comes.”
{applause}
CJ: “Thank you very much. You are very kind, particularly at this time.
“Because of my history with this church, my love for this church, I am so very grateful for this time this evening to address you. Thank you, Josh, particularly, for giving me this opportunity to address this church that I love the most.
“I am sure to some of you here this week, the charges against me have come as a complete shock, and I am so very sorry for that shock.
“Let me clarify something at the beginning: the object of this action is not your pastors, the object is me. This is not about them. This is all about me and Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM). Therefore, I can appeal to you to provide them with your full support and I fully anticipate your doing so.
This has been my prayer from the very beginning, that this would strengthen your relationship with them, not weaken that relationship with them with your support. And if you are angry, I understand, and you can direct that to me. My intention tonight is to share with you a few of the ways I believe I have sinned this evening, some of my failures and how we have arrived where we are this evening.
“A number of years ago I had come to realize there were a number of pastors who had offenses against me, and I began to pursue some of them for reconciliation. In January 2010 I communicated with Brent Detweiler (BD). He had left SGM in ’09. When I communicated with BD, he was not willing to meet with me.
He wrote a document outlining my sins and failures to SGM. After reading this document, I did not agree with a number of his points or the manner he presented them. Not to crucify B or to defend myself, but this information brings ways I have failed, and this what this evening is primarily about, how I processed and responded to an issue in 2003-2004 regarding certain deficiencies in my leading the team. Sadly rather than listen to their correction and examining my heart where recorded [can’t read my writing] might be sin in my heart and the way that prodded them and I behaved sinfully in that season. I was difficult to entreat; I was not easy to entreat. I sinfully judged their motives. I was arrogantly confident in my perspective. Different times I judged myself favorably to them. I was offended by a lack of care in my season of trials, and though we continued to work together, I gradually withdrew from them in my soul. I withdrew from them even after I agreed not to do so. I was confirming their charges by the way I was behaving.
In 2004 I began to see some of these sins, and those in my care group were able to see some evidence of growth present. Now that I look back at my perspectie and my confession of my sin, it can only be described as woefully inadequate. I never informed JH and Kenneth Maresco (KM) of DH and BD’s concerns.
When I first received it, I should have sent it to a group of men to help me see my sins more clearly. It showed… the effects of those sins on those I was called to serve with … and the affects of those sins. [I’m leaving out bits of my notes I am unable to read.]
Another affect of my sins, I have been poor at resolving conflict and tried to manage conflict on my own. In light of Brent’s offenses, I should have had the leadership team manage the conflct, should not have tried to manage Brent’s offenses on my own. For months I let this process drift. I thought it best to attempt negotiation in person and not in writing, but I let months drift.
Brent sent another document, 165 pages, where he pointed out more deficiencies, further illustrations of sins, and how my sins contributed to his release in 2009 (from SGM). I sent it to a group of men, asked them to read the document and let me know any arease where they agreed with the documents. I met with them after so I could give them my own perspective.
That was a sad and painful day, seeing the effects of my sin. At the end of the day I asked the men to forgive me, which they did. I then circled around to other men. I then sought to meet with Brent, and sought a 3rd party. Brent then [(?)missing words(?)] and asked me to review the documents again. I recused myself.
John Loftness (JL) then cataloged all Brents charges and spent a day going offer each of the charges with greater specirficity and I crafted a different document of ten pages or so. Brent did not find this adequate. Ken Sande reached out to Brent, which he declined. And we discussed involving a different outside party. Brent sent a 3rd document pointing out deficiences when Larry Tomczak left Atlanda. We had a conflict over how Larry described his leaving SGM. It grieves me to report to you that in a phone conversation where I sought to coerce Larry, that I coerced him. My public announcement of his departure was self-righteous critical of Larry. I was in sin and at that time I was blind to my own sin, and I am deeply grieved by that.
But by the Grace of God I am happy to report that seven months before Brent’s 3rd document a letter had alrrived on my desk that Larry appealed that we meet and be reconciled. I wrote back to Larry and said, “Let’s do it!” We began to meet in Tennessee. I am humbled and I am delighted to let you know that we met and I repented of my sins to Larry and Doris. They freely forgave me in a meeting we had in Nashville in December of last year [12/2010]. Larry and I stood side by side and started this church [CLC]. We stood side by side and started SGM. And in November I have asked Larry to come and be our special guest at the Pastors’ Conference where we will once again stand side by side. [applause] Actually we won’t stand side by side. I think it would be more appropriate for me to stand aside. And he has been a wonderful example to me of forgiveness. I want to emulate that.
There have certainly been other examples where I have contradicted what I have taught, where I have certainly displeased tand dishonored God. But in the past year and a half I have seen more sin and growth in a way more thorough than I have ever previously. These months have quite obviously been from God. I believe God is disciplining me for my failures and I am glad for his discipline [cant read my notes…] The object of his discipline is his love and care… [can’t read…] In this season my temptation has been more to be overwhelmed and to loose sight of the gospel, but when that happens my lovely wife is always there and good friends to remind me that the discipline of the lord is not punitive, it is the love of the Saviour to save me from my sins. And there is always grace, how sweet the sound. [Cannot decifer notes…] I bear a unique and primary responsibility for all that took place with Larry 14 years ago and in 1994 and I am grateful to God that in some degree I am reversing(?) that leadership failure. I am a sinner in need of grace, probably more grateful than ever before what Jesus did with my sins upon the cross.
There is an element I do not agree with in Brent thinks my sins contributed detrimentally to his leaving SGM. We are creating a panel to evaluate this situation, SGM as a whole. I am removed so I have no influence in this process. […leave of absense… independent panel… ] I want each charge evaluated. The information will be made public and communicated to you, and I am looking forward to this panel. But this evening is about attempting to communicate my sorrow for my sin, and my leadership failures and its effects on others and its effects on the church I love the most. So, I think it would be most appropriate for me to ask your forgiveness for these sins that I have identified.
VOICES FROM THE CONGREGATION:
“We forgive you, CJ!” ::clapping::
CJ: [This section of my notes very difficult to read]
Anyway, thank you. You have forgiven the acts of these sins, I am asking… I don’t want you to feel in any way obligation to forgive me but it certainly would be appropriate to thank you… [words missingg] I am here this evening to ask you to forgive me for these sins and their effects on you. Would you please forgive me?
VOICES FROM CONGREGATION: “Yes!”
CJ: That is very kind.
Please pray for me, and before I conclude, let me give you my even greater burden this evening. I want to do all I can to guard the gospel; I want to do all I can to guard the gospel of Christ and him crucified. I want to do all I can to protect your relationship with the pastors at this local church. I want to do all I can to protect all the churches in SGM. I have the deepest respect for the pastors and members and I don’t want to harm you or them in any way. So, I want to do all I can to protect the pastors and churches in SGM. Most importantly, I want to please God. I want to please Him and I want to crucify sin, whatever this requires of me. So please pray for me, and please pray for Sovereign Grace in [missing word] and our matters of policy and practice that need to be addressed and appear as team leader, a primary responsibility for these arise since these have been revealed on my watch. [Section I cannot decipher… like Please don’t case in a catelot, assume of churches or pastors by any means.] There are so many churches in SGM filled with evidences of grace, so while I acknowledge deficiences I want to acknowledge evidences of grace in each and each church.
Areas that need polity: Steps of accountability… need to be addressed, and we have been aware of it for 2 years. How we evaluate pastors needs to be addressed. Some in the past has been inconsistent, and in some missing. It has to be …[consistent?].How pastors correct one another, this needs to be addressed. How we resolve conflict needs to be addressed. So please pray for Sovereign Grace and those in charge of SG as they work on these areas. Pray that Brent and I will be reconciled We were once good friends. The negotiations I have had with LT gives me hope. Please pray that God would be glorified through all this by reconciling broken relationships
… [missing words..] of the gospel. Issues of the gospel, that has so graciously saved each of us.
CONGREGATION: Applause (30 seconds)
[Then as CJ came down from the stage, Josh joined him, and Robin also, and Robin prayed for him.]
[CJ speaks very fast, and I could by no means keep up with him, and my notetaking is rusty, but this has been my best shot. Hopefully CLC will come through and post the audio like they promised. Then my transcription errors can be corrected.]
“The Stenographer”
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
A thought on the church’s response last night:
i think it’s possible that the congregation hasn’t totally processed this news. the information leaked last week, and then within a few days there was a big meeting where they were able to hear more and ask questions. but you’re talking about a congregation that for 30 odd years has praised the leaders, clapped like it’s the state of the union address, and loves the “dearest place on earth”. it’s just habit at this point. so of course their normal response is to do these things, even at very inappropriate times (as i witnessed sunday morning).
i’d say give them some time, and more of them will read the documents, process what they’ve heard, rethink their time and interactions in the church, and more will start to seriously question the actions of their leaders. some will not. but you know, that’s why we have shepherds – to lead those dumb sheep back into the pen. and i pray shepherds will rise up out of the congregation, or from outside sources, or even out of the pastoral team to teach the dumb sheep… and the lost sheep, and whoever else wants to see change.
my point – give it some time. this isn’t going to change overnight. rome wasn’t built in a day, and neither will the new church government of clc.
i’m trying to be optimistic here.
Breezey said:
“Unfortunately, preaching was how he earned a living to support his family. My suggestion, let him sit for half a year, at half salary, then send him to England under Terry Virgo. Having him on the other side of the world to heal might help. Having an a fellow elder that is not in awe of his talent or having once been under his authority, or in the future under his authority to pull his chain might help the healing process. Just a thought.”
I think CJ could retire tomorrow and not have to worry about anything financially. Anyone who could afford to give his daughter and son in law his current house valued at around $500K and then turn around and pay cash for his new house must be pretty well off.
It also should be noted that Mahaney did this a few years back so is even probably more well off now.
Of course, Mahaney might have to get use to paying for a lot of his expenses instead of being able to voucher them as reimbursable expense.
Katie,
I completely understand your concern of people still worshiping the pastors. I know some people that came away from the meeting saying “that wasn’t as bad as we thought” or “this isn’t that huge of a thing and it doesn’t really effect us”. I disagree with those people, i mean Josh even said in the message on sunday “it is as bad as it seems”. And for those people I pray that their eyes will be opened that all leaders everywhere in the world are flawed, we are living in a fallen world. But i am grateful God has given me a heart of forgiveness(not just towards CJ but all of our leaders), thankfulness for them addressing these issues and that i was never blindly following them. I think it is good not to necessarily question what your leaders are doing but to not take everything they say as absolute truth. This is where discernment plays a huge role.
HappilyinCLC: Excuse me but you don’t get to tell us what we can talk about,post about or what rights we have or don’t have. I realize you are in a thoroughly corrupt Cult with some extraordinarily bizarre teaching on authority, but we aren’t under the authority of you or your whacked out, delusional, ex-druggie leader.
We get the right to comment on your cult because of what your CULT has done to our communities,families and friends. We have seen the destructive ways of your cult and the casualties of it’s false teaching. We have seen lives wrecked, SGM pastors tell the congregation to not attend a friend’s wedding. We have seen one SG pastor skip a funeral for his sister n laws newborn. We have heard the testimony of a mother whose baby girl was sexually assaulted, the testimony of a mother whose TWO CHILDREN were sexually assaulted, and we have heard what your beloved leaders did to cover it up. CJ actually gave a moderator $5,000 before he met with the parents of the victim.
Glad you’re “HAPPILYINCLC” but still alive enough to feel the pain of the humiliation that your “cutting edge of Christianity church” has brought on itself, while callously ignoring the victims of your “church”, including a baby the was sexually penetrated. Glad you’re HAPPY and can dull your conscience enough to support a church the conceals multiple cases of child molestation and refused to cooperate with the police.
If you’re offended by this blog then you are in for some rough days ahead. I have 8 people volunteering to picket Sovergn Grace Churches. You will see us at Fairfax first, then CLC and Richmond and then others. We are going to make your church well known as the place run by men more concerned with their Church’s reputation than the little victims of sexual abuse. What they (and you) don’t get is Sovergn Grace never really had a good reputation and it’s getting worse by the day because of leaderships deceitful ways. Soon all of the local community will know what your leaders have done. Your neighbors will know that you attend & support a church that conceals sex crimes against children. You have plenty of responsibility as a member of the cult and WE have a responsibility as adults within this community to protect ALL children from sexual assault and further victimization (after the fact) BY YOUR LEADERS. That’s not a right it’s a moral responsibility. One I hope you wake up out of your cult-induced trance soon enough to embrace.
We actually considered picketing the Vacation Bible School this week at Fairfax (with our new 8×4 banner “Sovergn Grace Protects CHILD Molesters”) and decided against it. I’m now reconsidering that decision. How many people like HappiliyinCLC are inviting potential victims from the neighbor to Fairfax’s VBS ?
Andy,
Please direct me to any documentation, information, or anything that will support your accusations that SGM harbors, aids, abets or in any way shelters child abusers. This is a matter of great concern to me because I know some people who go to these churches. Some of them are family members and very good Christians whom I love dearly. They are not privy to the information you have. Also anything you have on their being a cult would be greatly appreciated. I have not observed this altho I have witnessed a strong bent toward calvinism, also reformation and replacement theology which, while I do not call it cultish, I do not agree with. thanks for any direction you can provide in the way of materials.
#43 “once-forbidden blogs” .. I’ve read this notion a number of times from various people. I am having a hard time deciding if these blogs should or should not have been made “publicly aware of” to CLC members many, many years ago by CLC pastors.
Please hear my question correctly: obviously this blog is open to anyone who finds it. But I never knew this existed until a few days ago (thank you Brent). So I guess by not overtly informing the church, our CLC pastors were hiding it…but I don’t really see it that way. [more on this later]
Back to my point…I don’t consider this blog to be “once-forbidden”. I take it from this description that there have been many reported incidents of SGM church members finding these blogs, talking it over with their pastors, and the pastors warned them not to read those blogs?
All I can say is I don’t consider these blogs “once-forbidden” … AND the fact that JH named these blogs and encouraged people to look them over (reading with discernment*** of course)…I don’t think they are now discouraging people from reading them [speaking from a CLC perspective]. Yes, I know this is only after Brent’s docs were made public….so it’s certainly not credit for being so open and informative about these blogs throughout the last few years of their existence.
[“more on this later” … if they weren’t hiding it, should they have proclaimed it from the rooftops?]
Asking this question a different way: is it right/good for the leader of any organization to tell his constituents, “Hey, here are a bunch of blogs/opinions/troubling stories/[fill in the blank] that are against our organization–you all should go read them.” From an outsiders perspective [not mine and not the posters who have been put through so much turmoil], I don’t think an outsider would say that leaders should aggressively advertise blogs like that.
But I don’t know…I’m still mulling through this whole question.
I DO think that SGM leaders should follow up with those who have grievances against them. And I think that was happening a little+++…probably not nearly enough, and I imagine it will happen a lot more in the future. +++(weren’t Brent’s documents a direct result of CJ, in Jan 2010, reaching out to Brent asking how he had sinned against Brent?)
***”JH named these blogs and encouraged people to look them over, reading with discernment”
I wanted to clarify the reading with discernment caveat: in no way do I mean to downplay the horrendous stories that the posters on this blog have been sharing for years. BUT even as I have read and interacted with many posters the last few days, some of the comments I read are nothing but malicious thoughts, bitter/angry perspectives on what’s happening–understandably so from those so hurt by SGM–but still, those are the comments I need to just breeze over and have discernment not to engage in flame wars.
A few days ago I posted that I felt something wasn’t right, something didn’t smell right in all of this. Tonight as I was praying for our friends and others in SGM who have now joined the wounded as a result of their leaders betrayal and disillusionment; there are some impressions and thoughts moving in my spirit that I hope I can express a clearly and properly. (Jim and Kris – I am going to post on both blogs because I am just confused as to where to post what with all that has happened at light speed).
When I first read through Brent’s documents I must say I was stirred in a good way by his desire and love for what is right even at the expense of his great friend CJ and the reputation of SGM. It just sounded so right but something wasn’t clicking in my spirit. Over and over his statements of being CJ’s friend, how much he loves him, one of CJ’s biggest and loyal fans, ad nauseam. It is so bizarre how these men relate together. It was making me nauseous.
Then I saw that Brent really has little or no concern for CJ, or any of the people that his authority or leadership has ruined, hurt or wounded; including other pastors whose pastoral lives came to an end as a result of the heavy handed intrusive demonic authority exercised in their lives by him and SGM. I just thank God that Brent was never my friend (although I had friends along the PDI path like Brent). He claims that CJ refused to listen to anyone’s correction for three decades. That being the case, I keep asking myself what was Brent’s motive to continue to walk, honor, praise, love, adore, and protect a man that hasn’t lived what he has preached for three decades especially with the passion for truth and rightness desires. How does he put it? “integrity, truth-telling and justice. Does anyone else find this puzzling besides me?
Brent has confessed at some point his sin that he craved CJ’s affection and there was the fear of man. I am not arguing with him nor am I trying to crucify him. I am very thankful that he had the courage to lay it all out there inadvertently for those who have suffered at their hands. I don’t believe he cares one iota about those who have been hurt. I just haven’t been able to figure out why. I have seen Brent cry out of compassion for something (I am not being a smartass, I am just saying) but I don’t think it was for people. Then it clicked for me out of Brent’s own mouth. This whole deal with CJ has never about his love for righteousness, or his love for CJ or his love for the Jesus or His church; it is about his concern and passion for ‘the movement’.
BRENT WRITES —– “PRIMARILY, I HOPE AND DESIRE TO SEE A RESTORATION OF INTEGRITY, TRUTHTELLING AND JUSTICE IN SOVEREIGN GRACE SO THERE IS NO LYING, SPIN, MANIPULATION, LORDING, COVER-UP, OR PARTIALITY. I AM CONCERNED FOR THE MOVEMENT”.
Throughout his documents he continues to refer to “the movement”. Even now 18 months removed he is still trying to direct SGM what to do and how to do it. These aren’t suggestions he is making, they are directives as though he is still in authority. Does Brent still consider himself the authority to the movement. I don’t know I am just asking the question.
I am not trying to beat up Brent as I don’t have an ax to grind as I have had little contact with him while I was in PDI. He says he is a man who loves truth but was willing to cover lies for 30 years while the road of his past is paved with the lives of the saints. I would have to agree with him – for him it is about the movement. When I read his words of how much he just loves the church and caring for the people , it just doesn’t resonate with me. Maybe it’s just me!
Could it be these men who have been loved and respected all these years have sacrificed the saints at the altar of their movement? I am sure it couldn’t be but as I review my history and experience I might be persuaded otherwise. If I roll back the clock 29 years ago, I see things a bit different in light of ‘the movement’.
We were a young leadership team that inherited a broken church, wounded by leaders who cared about more about themselves than those whom they were supposed to serve. We were idealistic young men that sincerely wanted to be men of a different spirit and we needed to relate to men of another spirit. We sought help and the Lord led us to a church with a tremendous leadership team in Phoenix. They quickly became friends and there only desire was to serve us in any way they could. They would come to us and spend extended weekends to help, encourage and never ask us for anything. We were so grateful for these leaders, their wives and their church. They had a young vibrant church full of love and excitement for Jesus.
At the same time, they were trying to determine whether they should be part of PDI. The lead elder and Larry had developed a good relationship. We didn’t care we were just thankful to relate (in our minds) to such great men and leaders. If they went with PDI we would just ride their coattails. It was uncomfortable for a few of us I must say. We were informed that If we went with PDI, the apostles would determine if a man was an elder or not regardless of who they were. So there was a great risk (at least in my mind) placing our lives and call in the hands of these men.
The lead elder of the church in Phoenix, was one of the most gifted men I had ever met (even now). He was a good teacher, mentor of men, musician, athlete and writer. He wasn’t without issues and stepped in it a few times but there was no question he was a leader and I believe he was a man without guile. He was blindsided in a major way. He was driven out of his church and PDI absorbed his team and the church.
The scrutiny on this man’s life was fierce. Larry was asking us to evaluate this man, his character, what sin did we see (coached of course). It didn’t take us long to doubt the heart, call and integrity of this man. Even the men who had been mentored, trained and released into ministry by his care and training turned on him as a result of the ‘apostolic ministry’ of Larry and CJ. What I didn’t realize at the time as I do now, is it was a manipulative move by CJ and Larry. As tragic as it was, it didn’t register in our minds that this was wrong but just the opposite was true. This pattern and practice of exercising ‘authority’ would be applied the rest of my time with PDI both to us and from us.
We became part of PDI not because they wanted us but because they didn’t know what to do with us. Larry and Che were so gracious to come in and help us. Che was on his way to Pasadena. (Che played a significant part in helping my wife and I post PDI for which we are eternally grateful. Che and Sue were incredibly gracious.) But the same pattern of leadership emerged and to my surprise Larry became the new focus of CJ and the A-team while he was working with us.
I never really spoke to CJ, but our Sr Pastor was collecting information from us on Larry under the guise that CJ and the A-team were concerned about Larry and his apostolic role with the churches. We fell right in step. We sharpened our sin and fruit inspection pens. It took CJ and the A-team ten years to take him out but they took him out and they were able to take Che out as well.
So I am a bit surprised that Brent didn’t see it coming his way. I don’t have much sympathy for Brent. What and how they exercised their authority was absolutely horrible but nothing much different of what others experienced under his watch.
Now 29 years later it appears that CJ will eat the fruit of the SGM tree that he grew. And as the Lord has seen it, he has used his great and close friend Brent to prepare the meal. Granted CJ is in no way deserving sympathy for his part allowing the destruction to so many people. But will God be merciful, He will because He is. I am not sure I can go along with people’s assertion that it is God’s judgment or God’s discipline as much as it is reaping and sowing but it really doesn’t matter – he and Larry put things in place 30 years ago that has come back to bite them both in the butt.
Personally I don’t think I would grab for that lead position if I were Dave or Josh. I would leave that be and let the Lord put his man in there. But that is just me!!
There are more nameless (except Jim and Carole) heros that I have come to love and appreciate on these blogs including Jim, Carole, Guy and Kris. The leaders that I known in SGM pale in comparison to the stature of those here who have stood steadfast against the attacks, ridicules, fear, and intimidation to pursue the truth. I have learned so much from you all. Thank you so much!!!
Andy #53: you are obviously outraged and upset by reports and stories of sexual abuse/molestation being covered up and mishandled by pastors. And you should be…those are absolutely heart-breaking stories, and those pastors and leaders involved should be held accountable.
But how rampant in the dozens of SGM churches across the country is this problem? I once visited a SGM church on the west coast. I met some nice people, met the pastor. Are you saying HE was probably guilty of covering up some sexual abuse sin of a church member?
My point is, please be specific. If one group of pastors from a particular church did something wrong, and this blog is helping to expose that and hold them accountable…great. But as BookofAxe asked: what are all the details of all this sexual abuse cover-up? Are there 3 different churches and leaders which have done this? 12? 30? more/less?
And specifically for my church, CLC .. are you or anyone else aware if any of the pastors at CLC have been directly involved in covering up sexual abuse?
Dear AXe,
I live on the other side of the world where Sovereign Grace Ministries has screwed up many saints. They have covered up poor counsel/neglect/abuse concerning an abortion. Lets Keep this one real quiet. They cover up mis appropriation of funds, hard earned ministry dollars, covered up droves of people crying for help, care,people begged for oversite and acountability, then they covered up asking the pastor to leave…(this was done with out integrity.) And is still covered UP. Just ask Jim Bri tt thats how he deals. I tood a CNA class once and they made the point, you cant hide the presence of urine. If it is not cleaned properly, you will have an unplesant acid like odor and eventually bed sores.
Each person deserves the right to be heard. As CJ is being evaluated, who else is there that has something to say. Each person deserves to hear the words “I’m sorry” I’m sorry for what you’ve lived throught at the expense of the Church. And in some cases I believe other forms of restoration and recompense are appropriate.
a
If CJ had started or even included his statement with something to effect that, “I would not have stepped down temporarily or be saying these words today unless certain documents were made public,” his words would have had some more meaning to me. Or if his statement did not include near the beginning, “ In January 2010 I communicated with Brent Detweiler (BD). He had left SGM in ’09. When I communicated with BD, he was not willing to meet with me.”
Not to say all that could not be sincere, but because of the timing of the statement with events, the fact that it would seem that CJ and the SGM board, was unwilling to make any kind of move until things went public, makes the statement seem disingenuous. I agree very much with Matt, “They are trying to contain it and make it about CJ (and by default) Brent only.” At least it has every appearance of that.
Clearly a statement did need to be made, and steps needed to be taken. But it seems premature to be asking a congregation for forgiveness at this point, particularly one who has only just been made aware of events. It seems heavy-handed.
I do not want to be cynical, but that seems to be the reality of it.
HappilyInCLC-
I haven’t read all the comments since your first one, so if someone already said this, please excuse the repetition.
You said, “To restate as you are not members of CLC or SGM(and most of you are not as a voluntary action) then you have no right to judge us members for being able to forgive our leaders when you were not able to do so.”
I just want to correct your perception that everyone here is neither a member of CLC or SGM. That is wrong. A number of us are still in SGM churches and working through all of this mess ourselves. I have been in SGM for 30 years, in three different churches, including CLC. If you want my background, you can read my comment here: https://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=2333&cp=3#comments Comment number 129.
Marge aka Green Thumb
Indiana Christian Fellowship 1981-1986
Covenant Life Church 1986-1991
CrossWay Community Church (Charlotte) 1991 to present
To all the new readers here…
Welcome.
In the midst of all this, I hope that we can all gain an understanding of how deep this whole mess goes. The tendency is to look just at our little circles and see either how it isn’t affecting you or how it has devastated you or anything in between.
People like me that never were members at CLC are impacted because as a member of an SGM church we gave of our time, talents and money to in many ways support SGM and CJ. We considered CLC the Mother Church and our churches imitated many of the ways things were done there. All SGM Church members and former members have a dog in this race.
The impact of the abuses at the top spread down into the local congregations, resulting in the issues of abuse that have been aired here. The problems with SGM are systemic. The blogs have helped us all to connect the dots. It is wonderful for a man like CJ to seek forgiveness of individuals and groups, but the issues here go so much deeper. This is about how the entire denomination is diseased at its roots and how that has harmed the branches.
Sydney
what SG church did you go to? or can you please tell me who you are?
Trusting in the Lord
DK
After reading the transcript of the meeting and then slowly rereading it, several disconcerting issues have become evident……
Most of CJ’s address deals with the convoluted inner workings of the Machiavellian SGM leadership struggles and infighting, which, while exposing the hearts of these leaders, has little to do with the current state of affairs in SGM.
He goes on to say…..”I want to do all I can to guard the gospel; I want to do all I can to guard the gospel of Christ and him crucified…. (my Christ is risen, but that’s a whole other issue)…. I want to do all I can to protect your relationship with the pastors at this local church. I want to do all I can to protect all the churches in SGM.”
Seems that CJ is most concerned with protecting the SGM Infrastructure. He doesn’t need to protect the Gospel, he needs to proclaim the Gospel. And does he really think that he needs to crucify sin?………Christ did that on the cross once and for all for us believers.
Finally, he addressed some issues that should be of primary concern to those still in SGM churches……. “Areas that need polity: Steps of accountability… need to be addressed, and we have been aware of it for 2 years. (so….. when were you going to get around to dealing with it?) How we evaluate pastors needs to be addressed. Some in the past has been inconsistent, and in some missing. It has to be …[consistent?].How pastors correct one another, this needs to be addressed. How we resolve conflict needs to be addressed. So please pray for Sovereign Grace and those in charge of SG as they work on these areas.”
………OK, so things are looking up right? Maybe not. Where are the issues dealing with the abused people in these churches? Seems that his only concern is with evaluating and providing accountability for the pastors and resolving pastoral conflict. Oh yes, there will be focus groups, outside evaluators, mediators, endless meetings and discussions but where will they lead and what will be the intended outcome?
If it’s not evident to all at this point that the people will have no part in the process look again………. “So please pray for Sovereign Grace and those in charge of SG as they work on these areas.”
Josh at least started the whole thing off correctly (and prophetically) by stating that the evening was “all about him”(CJ). After all…… it has always only ever been all about him (not Him).
N.S.L.B.
@HappilyInCLC- You said, “To restate as you are not members of CLC or SGM(and most of you are not as a voluntary action)…”
I think this is inaccurate. Most of the ex-members here are ex NOT voluntarily. They were ousted. They were ousted for such “sins” as asking a question regarding a policy, or asking a question concerning practice. Or they were ousted for disagreeing with a methodology (I’m thinking DB who disagreed with the church-wide method of following the child-rearing methods of the Pearls).
Many (if not most) were ousted without due process.
Many were ousted unkindly and with great pain.
Many were ousted while family were still left inside and were treated by family (and dear friends) as if they had committed moral sins worthy of shunning.
But their sins were simple matters of inquiry or disagreement.
Most non-SGM churches don’t miss a beat when a member offers a differing viewpoint. Sunday School Bible studies include wonderful banter regarding opposing theological viewpoints…and feelings are not hurt and people are not asked to leave the church over these types of differences.
Most non-SGM churches don’t shun members (making them ex-members) when someone writes the pastor to ask him to clarify a polity or practice or asks him to consider an opposing polity or practice.
Most non-SGM churches aren’t homogenous clones. Pastors don’t go bald, don’t immitate the leader’s preaching style and intonations. Most non-SGM churches embrace independence of thought, style and personality. God has created men and women with personality and His creation ought to be celebrated, not cloned.
Most non-SGM churches invite the members to offer opinion, via voting by members, on topics that bring change (such as policy regarding baptism, communion, etc) instead of having one man at the top decide and institute changes which are not made public until such a time as something comes up that then requires the change of policy to be made known.
Most non-SGM churches don’t speak in the manner of the leaders as evidenced in these emails: they say what they mean and mean what they say rather than offer flowery greetings and salutations with knife-to-heart words between. Really. It’s true.
Most non-SGM churches don’t recognize a category of sin called “working independently.” That’s a bizarre categorization to me and I’ve not heard it in all my decades of church membership until hearing it in these documents.
Most non-SGM churches don’t have a guy at the top calling the shots to the A-team, who then filter it to the regional pastors who filter it to the pastors who filter it to the care-group leaders who filter it to the members. Rather, many non-SGM churches are run/managed by a group of Elders who have been elected by the membership on a regular, rotating basis, and these Elders are just regular guys, members, who hold jobs in the community non-Church related employment. These Elders work together with the pastor on an equal level of accountability. (That is what humility looks like – equality with membership.)
Most non-SGM churches allow independent, formal and informal Bible study and prayer groups.
Most non-SGM churches do not have care groups whose focus is on confessing sin. The focus is on the Word of God, with open Bible, and the opportunity to hear what that Book says to us as individuals as the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts as independent individuals.
So, happininclc, please have a heart of love and concern for your fellow ex-members. They are not ex by choice, in most cases. They simply acted as they understand most churches permit: with honest interaction and open inquiry. For not checking their curiosity, their intelligence, their God-given personality at the door, they were decared unfit for use and unceremoniously and with great harm, kicked to the curb.
And if they are hurt, if you hear angst and perhaps bitterness, what would it cost to lend an ear or, perhaps, take up their cause? It costs nothing to be kind – and kindness if a fruit of the Spirit as is gentleness. Perhaps these folk have had enough hurt and pain heaped on them by SGM members and pastors. Perhaps you can turn the tide and do the right thing to them. Perhaps you can show them the love your leaders refused to show.
Willie – No flimsy logic. Just flimsy understanding.
HappyInClc was saying that anybody on the outside does not have the right to criticize by virtue of being on the outside. HappyInCLC has given sole propriety to criticize to those on the inside.
The problem is pervasive in our society and is often called moral relativism. It says that “I” am going to establish my own moral law and be the sole arbitrator and judge of that moral law. That is ascending to godhood.
By CJ’s own admission, he was doing the same.
Furthermore, SGM/CLC has, without reservation, critiqued broad parts of society and other churches as well.
Are you saying it is OK for SGM/CLC to critique other churches but holds itself unassailable in its own moral turpitude?
Here are the latest posts by Dave Harvey over at the Sovereign Grace Ministries website:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/CJ-Mahaneys-comments-at-Covenant-Life-Church-yesterday.aspx
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/A-letter-from-Larry-Tomczak-on-his-reconciliation-with-CJ-Mahaney.aspx
CJ: This is about me, not your pastors.
Not true – the pastors are complicit as well in allowing you to continue in leadership at SGM
CJ: In 2009 Brent had been pastoring a church in North Carolina and left SGM.
This would appear to be untrue, Brent was kicked out of SGM, wasn’t he?
CJ: When Brent responded to my email, he informed me that he was not willing to meet with me but that he would interact with me through email and written documents. Two months later I received a 130-page document from him outlining his perspective about my sins and failures as a leader in SGM.
Does any of this matter? Is your sin lessened because Brent wouldn’t meet with you? What does 130 pages have to do with anything?
CJ: I need to tell you up front that after reading this document and ones that followed, I don’t agree with a number of Brent’s charges and conclusions, nor the manner with which he has presented his offenses.
What does the above have to do with your sin?
CJ: Brent was unwilling to meet with me personally.
What does the above have to do with your sin?
CJ: He insisted that my response be in written form to his satisfaction before he would meet with me personally and for months I let the process drift.
What does the above have to do with your sin?
CJ: In the fall Brent sent a second document, this one 165 pages in length.
What does the above have to do with your sin?
CJ: Throughout this time I was also benefitting from the counsel of Ken Sande of Peacemaker Ministries. Ken reached out to Brent and proposed a process of mediation that Brent declined. We then began to discuss involving an outside panel to evaluate Brent’s charges even if Brent declined to participate.
You are name-dropping by referring to Ken and the SGM board, etc…trying to justify your actions through the involvement of others.
CJ: Last month Brent sent a third document, this one 200 pages in length.
What does the above have to do with your sin?
In your statement, you repeatedly go over the fact that Brent sent such long documents and that he was not satisfied. What is your reason for doing that? Are you trying to lessen your sin? You also repeatedly attempt to show how you brought others into the process? What is your reason for bringing that up?
To sum it up, in your statement to CLC, you continued the lies and tried to deflect blame and minimize your sin. CJ, step down – really step down. No expectation of coming back. No coming into the office. No salary. Own the consequences of what you have done and do what you have forced so many before you to do.
So when will you people be satisfied? Obviously it won’t be right after these words from CJ. But when will you guys be relieved? I’m also curious as to how many people are not able to grow in a local church now because of their obsession over what you seem to label a “cult.”
SGM Survivors, what exactly are your demands? What needs to happen for you to be satisfied?
I Just wonder if the ANGRY bloggers were to meet C.J. face to face like today on the street say, I wonder if they would be as “Angry” as they are on here? Bold and “Powerful” in privite, but what would it be in public? and please, if you make an accusation, where is the proff?
Irv, once again excellent comment. I feel the same way in thinking that Brent should not all be surprised about what happened to him, he must have seen it happen a hundred times or more before. And I also agree that this is not God’s judgement but a clear case of cause and effect, you reap what you sow in this world (hence trusted sayings talking about tasting your own medicine and what goes around comes around).
And as my husband and I read through the documents together I was struck by how much Brent really really believes in the system, the rules of the SGM game. And he’s sticking to them, I said, like a bulldog. He just isn’t letting go. For that I give him some credit. I don’t believe in the system and think it’s at the root of the problems to begin with, it is a breed legalism, a ministry of death.
But Brent I think is at least sincere in his belief that if they just keep obeying the rules everything will be ok, if C.J. can be made to follow the rules and submit to the system then everything will be right. I also really like Brent as his personality comes through (especially in his footnotes). I have always appreciated blunt honesty and boldness and it seems Brent is not lacking either, at least not in his documents. But I realize coming out of SGM is a long long process, and the longer you were there, the higher up you were, the more difficult it is to think any other way.
I can’t believe how insensitive and ignorant people are when they come here and attack those whose words and feelings are the most raw. Anger, bitterness, resentment, hurt, shock, grief, frustration,confusion…these are all NORMAL, HEALTHY expressions of dealing with this kind of thing. These are people who are learning to be honest out loud maybe for the first time in years. There is so much pent up and locked away that it may take years to get it all out. People need to feel free to engage this process for as long as it takes, and we should help each other see that we are moving forward and things get better little by little. It’s been 5 years for me and I am still surprised at how this continues to affect me. I don’t realize it until something triggers a reaction in me, but there are things I carry with me from my SGM experience, and I didn’t even suffer overt abuses like so many others.
The system itself is abusive, just by being part of it and believing it you set yourself up for bondage to sin, guilt, manipulation, control, condemnation, suppression, oppression, fear, depression, and general misery all the while feeling the command of God to be content and sin less. I’ve said many times this is a recipe for insanity. INSANITY. I shudder to think what so many are suffering in silence behind closed doors, hiding their pain from every single person they know, the lonliness and fear they live with.
I also agree that until SGM openly ackowledges more serious charges like covering up for sex offenders and overt abuse of members in specific cases this is far from enough. I just hope this is the beginning of all truth coming to light in one way or another. Of course it’s come to light here already, but is SGM going to open their eyes and take a look or will they just tighten their blindfolds?
Remnant (post #65) and Walking Wounded (post #67), you both clarify the situation very well. Thank you.
Kris, the points Remnant enumerated support what you also said in your post repeated below in italics. Remnant’s words help people see how a healthy church functions so they can see the important contrast with SGM. SGM is a very unhealthy organization.
“Surprise! CJ’s not perfect! He’s human just like the rest of us!”
I don’t get it. I mean, I really don’t get it.
It’s kind of like how people defend even the worst abuse by saying, “No church is perfect.” Well, duh – of course no church is perfect. But there are degrees of imperfection, levels of dysfunction. Pointing out glaring problems (or downright unethical/illegal stuff like blackmail) does NOT mean that someone who talks about a church’s problems is expecting perfection.
There’s a huge gulf between demanding perfection and asking that your church have formal accountability for its leaders and that pastors don’t function as incompetent counselors, demanding that sex abuse victims demonstrate immediate forgiveness to the perpetrators…and failing to pursue the proper legal channels for crimes.
There’s also a huge gulf between allowing someone the grace to be “only human”…and allowing someone to exhibit horrific hypocrisy and even commit a crime like blackmail.
Come on, people. THINK.
Mark, the fear you may rightly discern in people here is not a testimony to their cowardice but the abusive system they were once part of. We felt an irrational kind of fear for quite some time after we left and God had to teach us that it was not only ok but good to stand up and speak the truth boldly. That’s why I use my real name and anyone who wishes could contact me quite easily through my blog.
Do you think it would be easy for any of us to speak to C.J. face to face? That wouldn’t be easy even for your typical SGM member in good standing. We are the little people. We did meet with our pastors during the leaving process and were very opn and honest (it was terrifying but we did it). My husband did write quite a bold letter to Dave Harvey and all the CFC pastors after we left, and also spoke to Dave face to face at a chance meeting several months after we left. I even engaged in an email exchange with BK a couple of years afterward (by ‘chance’ hehe, or my stupidity)
Would you sit down with any of these men and freely speak your mind if it was not in agreement with them? If you wanted to know my problems with SGM I can prove it with Scripture, my main problems are certain false doctrines and controlling practices that are not up for debate (as to whether they exist or not). Everyone know they teach these things and practice these things, the question is whether you believe they are right or wrong. I believe certain things are very very wrong, evidenced by some pretty rotten fruit such as the stories you can read on this blog. The fact that people are such terrible sinners as SGMers will no doubt freely admit, is not a good testimony. The true gospel produces freedom and righteousness, not sin and more sin.
“But Joshua Harris simply hasn’t had enough time and space to deal with this and we shouldn’t rush to judgment just yet.
Yes, I know people wonder why he didn’t say anything sooner, but they seem to forget that CJ was very much in control until a week or so ago.”
Namegoeshere,
Do you know where I first heard of the Harris’? From the bleeding wounded coming out of the whole Dominionist movement. The Vision Forum types. The militant homeschoolers who want a US Theocracy. The Harris’ made Dominionism cool.
This is all Josh knows. He was milk fed it as a child. He might present a nicer face but he was bred on the legalism and Gospel as a money maker.
Mark, I find your comments curious.
CJ just admitted to being unapproachable in a sinful way. . . . and that it wounded people.
Yet, you are criticizing the wounded for not approaching???
Very strange comments indeed!
This is my first time posting here. I currently attend a SGM in Ashburn, VA. No long stories from me however, as I have only been going recently and am not a member.
The main reason I’m posting is to ask if anyone has seen Albert Mohler’s comments regarding this whole situation? If so, what are your thoughts? Here is the link:
http://blogs.courier-journal.com/faith/2011/07/12/mohler-backs-mahaney-dismisses-accusations-of-abusive-leadership/
Thanks,
JS
“Does any of this matter? Is your sin lessened because Brent wouldn’t meet with you? What does 130 pages have to do with anything?”
Brent was very wise not to meet with CJ without all the conditions met.
Brent knows how the “star chamber” works because he had probably used the same tactics. No way was he going to fall for it.
@Matt your #76
You are right. If Brent had met face to face with CJ, no one would have ever known any of this and his domination/control would continue.
happyinclc – As a fellow CLC member I am so very disappointed at the way you have come on this blog with seemingly “guns blazing.” Didn’t Josh specifically point out we as a church need to grow in loving hurt by SGM/CLC Sunday night? He was so right! You do not need to agree at all with our fellow brothers and sisters on this blog, but you do need to show the love of Christ in your words. I disagree with much and agree with much on here, but Lord willing I have never spoken on here in a way displeasing to the Lord when I have disagreed here. Actually, I try to just keep my “blog comment mouth” shut when I disagree. :D
Andy – when do we protest? I am ready :)
So, it appears the SGM spin is still in full force. I don’t buy it. CJ appearing humble at the “members MeeTing”? Nah – he still had a get a few digs in at Brett. “I have Sinnnned” followed by “I don’t agree with that part”
Again, the issue is that everything is trying to be worked in the same system. “We are looking at creating better accountability” but it is within the current SYSTEM.
All of you that are still in the system – I pray that you are free someday from the terrible control that SGM has over you. And when you leave, I will not say “Told you so”, but “welcome, I am here if you want to talk about what happen to you”. The regulars on this board are very inclusive and not exclusive.
@Irv – “I keep asking myself what was Brent’s motive to continue to walk, honor, praise, love, adore, and protect a man that hasn’t lived what he has preached for three decades especially with the passion for truth and rightness desires. How does he put it? “integrity, truth-telling and justice. Does anyone else find this puzzling besides me?”
I found that puzzling as well and concur with
“BRENT WRITES —– “PRIMARILY, I HOPE AND DESIRE TO SEE A RESTORATION OF INTEGRITY, TRUTHTELLING AND JUSTICE IN SOVEREIGN GRACE SO THERE IS NO LYING, SPIN, MANIPULATION, LORDING, COVER-UP, OR PARTIALITY. I AM CONCERNED FOR THE MOVEMENT”.” :huh
Just Wondering a few things:
1. Do you guys think C.J. is saved at all? The way you guys talk its like He is the Devil himself. are u perfect? HUH?
2.nevermind the other question. I`m done wasting my time on this ANGRY site. you guys will be blogging until Jesus comes, getting NO Where. BYE.
@MH – Your last post reveals an attitude that I believe is largely responsible for this blog & others.
You give 2 options:
Option 1: Don’t criticize CJ
Option 2: Criticizing CJ (or anyone) is indicative of dubious election
It is this bimodal view of the world that has long troubled me about SGM.
SGM drives a mentality that any disagreeing on method is tantamount to sin.
It is that mentality that has people throwing about the “cult” word. Although I don’t believe SGM to be a cult, I do believe they employ the tools of a cult to maintain order and control.
MH, dear, you sound angry.
Perhaps it you who are looking at us through an angry-eyes filter rather than us being angry.
If we are guilty of anger, isn’t being angry at sin and sin’s evil effects permissible in God’s economy?
If we are hurt, or bitter, or angry, ought you not offer us balm to soothe? Could you not offer Kindness or Gentleness or Patience, those fruit of the Spirit to us as we ache and writhe in pain (or as we shout and pout and holler in agony)?
Mark, dear, be a sweetie and see if you can offer a word of love or encouragement to one of the least of these this morning.
Irv — I think you are right on about Brent. I believe that most everything that Brent has written is true and sufficiently condemns CJ to the point that he should step down or be removed. But just like CJ has significant areas of sin, so does Brent. I believe that he has some kind of perverse obsession with either CJ, SGM, or his own self-rightous need for “integrity”. The more that I read and re-read his documents, the more I dislike Brent as much as CJ and Dave.
To the Stenographer — I wouldn’t waste any more of your time transcribing a bootleg recording of the Sunday night meeting. I’ve heard this morning from CLC itself that the message will be posted. If everyone is patient, it will be there.
Regarding the transcribed comments from CJ, you should notice that they are substantially the same as what was posted yesterday on the SGM site. The main difference is that SGM posted his written notes, while the transcription shows how he actually delivered them.
In addition, don’t read too much the crowd reaction. I was there. Yes, a few people yelled encouragement from the crowd. I was only a few, and as you can imagine, there are some people who will support CJ no matter what. This is not unusual and no one should take it to condemn all CLC members or all SGM members. Yes, there was applause for CJ at the end of the message. Perhaps half of the people were applauding. I believe that this occurred for two reasons: first, less than half of the people had read the documents (Josh asked this question later and asked for a raise of hands), and Josh had not yet revealed to those people what the documents said, so they had not yet fully grasped what CJ was even accused of. Second, I believe that people were somewhat encouraged that CJ was even there to acknowledge anything that night, and despite his partial admission of sin, they are good people who just wanted to encourage him. That isn’t such a bad thing, either, but not everyone (including yours truly) felt so encouraging at the time.
Here’s the “problem”. If someone comes to you that you have an offense against and asks specifically if you would forgive them. Can you say no? Not really. What hoops do you want a person to jump through before you say yes. Forgiveness is not easy and it has a cost. For God to forgive us cost Jesus His life and God the Father His Son. Someone yelling out “We forgive you CJ!” the other night apparently doesn’t see there is a cost to forgiveness. An “easy” forgiveness for the multiple and systemic problems at SGM doesn’t help. My question is: What should be the cost CJ and others involved should pay? Should it be financial? Restitution? Loss of jobs, position? What if you were merely blind to the problems? Being sincere yet sincerely wrong is a problem itself.
JS #76 — Mohler’s comments are very disappointing. Prior to reading that, I would have said that I had a lot of respect for him. That respect is now greatly diminished.
I’ve seen the grace of God transform lives at CLC. I’ve witness drug addicts healed of their addition, pornographers eye washed clean and broken marriages restored. I’ve watched wayward teenagers return to their parents, single mothers find new love, and wounded Veterans serve anew. I’ve had a front row seat to the Grace of God.
I’ve been born again and received the Holy Spirit. I’ve been reminded of the mercy of God at the Cross, the truth of the resurrection and the blessings of the Spirit. I know the love of God in Christ Jesus.
I’ve had my sin revealed, repented of my sin, and reconciled with others more than once. I’ve grieved over my sin and denied my sin. And, I will sin again. I will deceive again, judge again, and manipulate again. I will seek my own glory again. I will deny God again. But I know that the blood of Christ has covered my sins.
I’ve witnessed a father in the faith be brought low. I’ve seen the sin of many men be revealed to the world and I’ve felt the hate of hundreds. I know what it is to be heartbroken, to question my Church and doubt my Pastor. I know hypocrisy well and I’ve seen true transparency begin to emerge.
I have learned at CLC that I’ve been saved by the blood of Christ. It is Christ who suffered the wrath of God for my sins and I will never be judged again. I’m a new creation in Christ Jesus, who loved me and died for me. I will not be defined by the sins of others but rather by the love of Christ.
Could I have learned and lived these things at another Church? Sure, but I didn’t. God showed me his grace at CLC. And, he will continue to show me more of his glory at CLC.
Dara K,
My email address is SurvivorSidney a gmail dot com
You can email me if you want.
Sidney
Typo in my #85 above — In the last paragraph, it should read “It was only a few…”, not “I was only a few…”. Don’t want you to think that “I” was one of the “few” doing the yelling. :wink:
:new Hi folks, CLC member for 24+ years.
I knew nothing about any of the problems with SGM until the bomb dropped Friday. Since then, I have looked here, and at SGMrefuge, and have read parts of the wikileaks documents.
I, my family, and the CLC friends that I’ve had a chance to talk with, are devastated.
Please, for what it’s worth, accept my sincerest sympathy to those of you who have been injured.
I have other thoughts I’d like to share that may be helpful, but I’m still processing, as I believe all of the conscientious CLC members are. Please be patient as we’ve had only about 3 days to examine these things.
Re: “Easy forgiveness”
I wonder if 2 separate factors are being confused.
– Foregiveness of sin
– Consequences of sin
Looking at the account of David, Nathan pronounced that David’s sins were forgiven immediately based on his prophetic insight to David’s penitent heart.
However, the consequences of that sin plagued David for the rest of his life. He never rose to the level of effective leadership he once held.
I am dubious of CJ’s penitent heart based on the qualified confession he gave. However, I disagree with many and believe man forgiving man is not contingent upon the request for forgiveness. I believe we are commanded to forgive regardless.
However, consequences are a different matter. The fact that confrontation of this behavior has been rebuffed for so long, and the fact that CJ was only driven to confession by the sin becoming public leads me to believe that consequences should exclude him from future leadership.
Eric-
CJ handed Al a check out of his own pocket for 100,000 for his seminary. You don’t know what else has been donated that isn’t public record. When people give you big bucks you feel appreciative and loyal and assume they are wonderful Christians supporting your wonderful ministry. I would give Al time.
Of course some folks say Al rules with a heavy hand as well, so maybe he is cut from the same cloth.
I’m with Andy…lets keep the focus on bungled and covered up sex abuse. That says more about the systemic problem than hundreds of pages of documents, and any Gospel Coalition celebrity with a pair still attached should feel outrage. To answer a former pastor, HappyMom and Wallace met with CJ, who was gracious when they met but essentially did nothing to resolve the problems. So you can say this is a problem at top levels, even if it did not happen in many SGM churches.
Matt, you bring up a critical part in this whole mess. It really grieves my heart seeing so many home school parents buy into Dominion Theology. Back when I started in the earlier days of the home school movement, I didn’t know a soul who home schooled. I had never even heard of it. God pulled our hearts to home school, so He was the only One we looked to for guidance. We had no curriculum, just used the Bible and books. Today I see too many home school parents looking to human gurus like the nut job Pearls, the haughty Scott Brown/Doug Phillips clan with Vision Forum, the supreme master Bill Gothard with ATI, and the most perfect family of all, the Mahaneys.
Too many pattern their lives more after the lives of their celebrities than after the life of Christ.
Not meaning to drift the thread here, but most home school parents I’ve met using the Josh Harris courtship model are control freaks. The fathers have gone wacko with some handing out 100 question lists for guys just wanting to talk with their daughters. Many of the girls are getting older and older without being courted because some of the young men won’t even consider a girl with control freak parents. Can you blame them? You have to respect the young men with enough godly manhood and self-respect to set good boundaries with potential in-laws.
Any reasonable father would want his daughter to marry a young man who is mature in Christ and in his own manhood, not someone he can control.
Of the young people that do marry, oftentimes it’s orchestrated by the parents involved. In one case involving a particularly controlling father, a daughter in her twenties married a 17-year-old teenage guy her dad really liked. Don’t ask me how a teenager supports a wife and kids in this economy. Amazing stuff.
I submit this for any SGMers visiting who may be hoping for a way out of this craziness. A book titled Holding Hands, Holding Hearts by Sharon and Richard Phillips is a good place to start.
Just hate seeing so many young people wanting to get married, yet having to jump over the Empire State Building to get there. And how many of these dads really let go after their daughters marry? (don’t ask, don’t tell)
KMD…
thank you for a gracious post that leads the way in what Christianity should look like as we all deal with each other in this fallen world.
Just a quick comment that may be worth sharing with some background on me…I first found this blog after seeing the announcement on CJ’s blog about his leave of absence. It was my first exposure to the problems within some SGM churches.
I say “some” because some of the problems seem so foreign to the SGM church I attend.
– We’ve had people leave to attend other churches and maintain close friendships in our church. We were sad to see them leave, but there was no talking about them unfavorably or criticizing them.
– We partner with non-SGM ministries in our area that hold to the essentials of the gospel even if they’re not thoroughly Calvinistic.
– We have members meeting together to study the Scriptures. There is pastoral guidance and oversight, but still a lot of independent thought.
There are still areas our church needs to grow, but it has been surprising to see some of the stories here. We are a smaller church, so I wonder if that has kept us from problems with authoritarian leadership. Perhaps it’s more difficult to be abusive when there isn’t much distance between the senior pastor and the congregation. We’ve also been able to enjoy having a pastor with a shepherd’s heart that wants to care for sheep rather than exercise authority over them.
Unfortunately, I guess there are some pretty bad apples that are spoiling the whole bunch.
I appreciate being able to read the things I’ve found here. I think it has reminded me of the need to always evaluate what’s being said and how things are run.
If I might be so bold, I’d like to thank those who have contributed out of a desire to care for those of us in SGM churches. The encouragement you bring is an evidence of God’s grace in your life. Thank you for serving us with your stories. :D
Remnant, I have a new addition, This Blog!
You say you are in such pain, here is my encouragement: Oh if you could get your eyes off yourself just for a Second, and how you`ve been hurt,My Goodness, is it all about you? Cast your burden on the Lord. This Blog CARRIES there burdens ,they don`t CAST thier burdens on the Lord.
Hey Jasper: Please give me the passage where it says we are allowed to critize SGM? I must of missed that 1
@MH
“Hey Jasper: Please give me the passage where it says we are allowed to critize SGM? I must of missed that 1”
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Mark, can you help me understand your question?
Does your question imply that SGM should be unassailable in any critique?
Welcome, CLCers
If you click on my name, you can read a very short synopsis of my story. I post under my initials — and yes, that’s a very old picture. I’ve been praying for you all every time I drive past on Muncaster Mill — that blind eyes would be opened, that captives would be set free — and I did tell CJ that in the letter Jim from sgmrefuge helped me send.
My concerns about CLC are manifold:
the lack of congregational voice — I am hoping that the congregation (men and women) will be part of the new constitution
the strict demarcation between clergy and laity
the pyramid structure — a la Amway
the silencing of women’s voices and disuse of women’s gifts
the longheld reviling of psychiatry and psychology
the fear about leaving well — and the shunning that occurs when folks do leave
the idolatry of CLC/SGM as a movement — people
the sudden/random shifts in theology and practice
the fear of “contamination” by anyone deemed not in good standing in SGM — both in the church, with other churches, and in the neighborhoods
the CYA/lawyerese that keeps true repentance and reconciliation at bay
I care about what happens at CLC because my tithes and sweat helped support the system and build the church, because my kids still go with their dad on occasion, because I love the people there, because it’s part of the Body of Christ, and because I’ve been helping the walking wounded here on the blogs since 2008.
Anne – CLC 1986-2007
MUST READ ON AL MOHLER’S MONEY CONNECTIONS WITH C.J. MAHANEY:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/05/19/the-mahaney-money-machine-part-3-all-the-cbmws-men/