Al Mohler, Anger, And An Observation
July 12, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Apparently, Al Mohler is OK with the recent revelations about C.J. Mahaney’s leadership of Sovereign Grace Ministries. You can read an article summarizing his response here.
From the above-linked article comes this:
“There is nothing disqualifying in terms of anything that is disclosed in this,” said Mohler, who regularly speaks on programs along with Mahaney. “It’s just evidence we knew all along, that C.J. is human but a deeply committed Christian and a visionary Christian leader.”
I am surprised and saddened by Al Mohler’s seeming nonchalance. Either Mr. Mohler didn’t read all of Brent Detwiler’s documents as closely as he claims, or else he must not be terribly alarmed by the idea that the head of a “family of churches” could engage in what would qualify as blackmail…and for years sidestep serious accountability for himself while demanding that other men in his organization be “de-gifted” for lesser failings.
Go figure.
Of course, Dee and Deb over at The Wartburg Watch posted the following, way back in May 2009:
How did C.J. Mahaney become so popular among reformed Christians? As far as we can determine, C.J.’s secret to success is that he has friends in high places. We believe his recognition among the “Reformed Big Dogs” began when he befriended Mark Dever, Senior Pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church, in Washington, D.C. (a church not far from Gaithersburg where CLC is located). C.J. interviewed Mark Dever for IX Marks (a Mark Dever ministry) last year, and they established during that recorded conversation that they have known each other for 10 years.
Mark Dever is directly connected with Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS) where he currently serves as a trustee. We believe Mark introduced C.J. to Al Mohler early in the Mahaney/Dever friendship because we have discovered that C.J. began making contributions to Southern Seminary in 2002 at the Leaders Associate level (annual gifts of $5,000 to $9,999). Both C.J. and CLC gave at the Leaders Associate level in 2003. From 2004 to 2007, C.J. gave at the Distinguished Associate level (annual gifts over $10,000), while CLC gave at the Leaders Associate level in 2004, 2005, and 2006. It appears the church did not make a contribution in 2007. We have not yet seen the 2008 giving levels, which should be featured in the Spring 2009 SBTS publication. All of this information can be obtained from the SBTS Roll Call by following this link:
http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2003Spring.pdf
(change the year accordingly). The information is stored in a PDF file, so allow a few seconds for it to be retrieved.
In addition to the annual gift levels, the SBTS Roll Call includes the “Lifetime Cumulative Gift Levels”. On the 2005 Roll Call, C.J. Mahaney was listed as a “Patron Member” (cumulative gifts of $25,000 to $49,999). Check out page 45 at this link:
http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2006Spring.pdf
Incredibly, on the 2006 Roll Call, Mahaney has risen to the level of “President’s Council” (cumulative gifts of $100,000 or more). Check out page 43 at this link:
http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2007Spring.pdf
Until the cumulative gift levels for the SBTS Roll Call are increased beyond the $100,000 mark, C.J. Mahaney will always be listed under “President’s Council”.
That’s quite commendable to go from being a Patron Member to a member of the President’s Council in JUST ONE YEAR! C.J. Mahaney gave A MIMIMUM OF $50,001.00 in 2006 to accomplish that feat.
You can access the entire series of articles here.
—————————–
In other developments, Guy and I have been noticing an uptick in anger, both in the comments left on this site as well as in some of the email we’ve been receiving. What’s interesting to us is that at least some people seem to be more angry, more upset, with the idea that this site exists and that people are permitted to speak freely and say what’s on their minds than they are over the contents of Mr. Detwiler’s documents.
—————————–
Which brings me to an observation.
It appears that Josh Harris has recently begun permitting free speech on his blog. While Mr. Harris has always differed from other Sovereign Grace celebrity bloggers in that he did have an option for people to leave comments, he (or whoever moderates his site) has been known to delete unfavorable-to-SGM responses. Now, though, his most recent post is host to a variety of reader reactions.
Josh Harris is to be commended for this change.
But here’s my observation.
To those of you within Sovereign Grace Ministries who find yourselves filled with anger over the idea that “the blogs” have existed and provide a forum for people to say what’s truly on their minds, it occurred to me this morning, as I considered the new glasnost at Mr. Harris’ blog, that the reason SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge ever gained a readership in the first place is because Sovereign Grace Ministries’ own leaders did not provide an option for honest and uncensored feedback.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Amazed and saddened to read Al Mohler’s response. Even more so, as I’ve seen CLC members post links on their Facebook pages to Al’s comments with great rejoicing and gratefulness expressed to Mohler.
Dear CLC/SGM members who are exulting in Al Mohler’s exoneration of CJ: How do you reconcile this with what Josh said to you on Sunday morning about the seriousness of the charges? How do you reconcile this with all you heard during the members’ meeting Q&A on Sunday night?
Just to be clear…I realize not all CLC/SGM members are having this response, but some very “prominent” well-known names within Sovereign Grace/CLC are.
I feel a deep sadness this morning.
This is what I feel like right now: :bang
How can God’s Word not be clear in application here? Blackmail is ok? Really? Blackmail using information from a “pastor care” situation? Really? Blackmail using information gathered during a time of “pastor care” situation from a CHILD? Really?
God’s Word has this as ok? God is ok with leaders of HIS church doing this? :bang
May the Lord have mercy.
Moderator, Thanks sooooo Much. I`m really new to all this. I once saw a bumper sticker that simply says”Question Authority”.
So are you still reformed in doctrine?
and a BIG question I have for you:after leaving SGM, where do we go from here?
I’m not shocked to see Mr. Mohler’s response at all. Once I left CLC in 2006 I knew that I needed to de-program myself from the reformed christian celebrity subculture. Mr. Mohler has to protect his own interests for the sake of his denomination and his family.
What good is speaking truth when there’s no itegrity behind it?
Re Whirlwind: I do think that the degree some of this stuff happens varies from church to church. Churches with apostles at them have seemed to be the worst, while other churches are hit or miss. And in terms of relations with non SGM-ministies, that definietly varies, and CLC is generally thought as the worst. I was breifly in the SGM church right near CLC, and when we started an ALPHA ministry on UMD campus, CLC would not even partner with them, which i thought was beyond absurd.
MH: I think you can see the a variety of theologies and beleifs within the bloggers. You even see a great deal of difference in what the theological problems with SGM stem from – i.e. some think the problems are from them being too reformed and losing their Charismatic edge, some will think there problems are that they are not really reformed, and are too charasmatic. Some folks have left and have left the faith, or left orginized churhces. Some folks have gone to Presbyterian or other reformed churches. It just depends.
In reference to the BookofAxe post 109.
Can I ask why we are all so easily willing to not want to consider the fact that there could be false prophets all around us? The Bible continually warns us that they will come. For too long I believe I would be able to spot one when they arrived because what they would be teaching would be way out there and it wasn’t until talking with a friend that my thinking changed.
Why would God take the time to warn us if we would be able to spot them easily? Matthew 7:15-16 “‘Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits.”
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone into the world.”- 1 John 4:1
“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared…” 1 Timothy 4:1-2
I believe CJ is teaching a distorted gospel and he is twisting scripture. To me those two facts alone prove that you are teaching falsely. Instead of teaching the whole gospel he focuses mainly on the crucifixion causing people’s eyes to shift inward at how horribly sinful they are instead of pointing their eyes outward to Christ. Instead of rejoicing at the great love our Savior has for us he has trained us to be self-centered as we continually flog ourselves for our wickedness even though Jesus has washed us white as snow. With CJ, the teachings never move beyond the cross and we stay in a continual pattern of guilt and condemnation which is not what Jesus came to do. As children of God, we are seen as spotless and we are told to go show this unconditional love to the world not stay rooted at the cross and being daily reminded of God’s wrath which we once deserved.
After being under these teachings for 6+ years (my church hasn’t been part of SGM for long but they have had a long relationship with them) and experiencing first hand the impact CJ’s teachings have had, I can say that I personally believe that he has deceived himself and many others by preaching a gospel different (though for many, it may not seem different) than what was given to us. The pastors took my understanding of God as a loving Father and hammered into my mind through repetition how horrible I am until I no longer felt God’s love but instead only saw Him as a Father of wrath.
I do not relish the pain that is going on in these churches nor does my heart rejoice in the spiritual war that is occurring. While many may not agree with me I understand…maybe my view is extreme but until I feel God telling me otherwise or to be quiet, I will continue to voice my concerns for my fellow brothers and sisters.
I posted on the Courier-Journal blog which reported Dr. Mohler’s comments. I am very sad and angry at his closing ranks and not taking the wrongness of CJ’s behaviour seriously.
I would also like to say that Dr. Mohler is not typical of all Southern Baptists, and he does not speak for them all. He’s the President of their oldest seminary, but that doesn’t mean he is at the denomination’s helm. The helm if any is in the autonomous local churches. My dad is a Southern Baptist preacher, and my brother pastors a tiny country church. He is one of the most awesome, caring pastors I know.
Not meaning to hijack the thread…but years ago my heart was broken by how the then-PDI leaders used to speak scornfully of Southern Baptists, among others. PDI was so much more cutting-edge and New Testament, to hear them.
…but they didn’t know my dad…or my brother…or my brother-in-law…
For the sake of Zion I will not keep silent
Thank yo so much for this website. It is funny. For the past few months I have tried to google and search for sites like this blog. I do not know how SGM does it, but they make it impossible to find. It was not until the CJ revelation that I was able to find this site. I am so grateful. I left SGM years ago, but still am fearful to speak too much. Although I am not quite ready to share my experience, I feel like a part of me that was left empty by CLC is exposed for what it is… a lack of true, honest, and deep care for ALL who attend the church, not just the Mahaney family, the pastors’ families and a few very chosen others who have gotten to marry into the group..
This site has let me know there were others out there like me and although I try to read it for what it is worth, a place to vent and feel connected, I am still very much glad it is here. IF CLC and SGM are unhappy about what people are posting then they should have listened to objective criticisms while some of us were there. Thanks.
@MH – Re: “where do we go from here?”
A couple thoughts:
1.) Know the Word of Truth for yourself – don’t rely on others. Read & understand dissenting views. Understanding dissenting views does not require that you agree with the view. However, there is a chance you will discover something you had not previously considered. Furthermore, if your view is sound, you will walk away more affirmed in your view. SGM does not support the notion of exploring dissenting views. My goodness, they don’t support more than one translation of the Bible.
2.) Understand what you found appealing about SGM. SGM employs many tools of cults to control the laity. If you search yourself, you will find there was something you found appealing in the controlling environment of SGM. This is not good. (Not trying to be mean – just honest). Without understanding why you were drawn to that type of environment, you are at high risk of being drawn into another version of SGM.
Dealing w/ those 2 issues should help you, under the guidance of the HS, to find your way forward.
MH – You raise a very important question: “and a BIG question I have for you:after leaving SGM, where do we go from here?”
Both SGMSurvivors and SGMRefuge have been wonderful about having a venue in which silenced church members have a voice. But what to do now after deciding that enough is enough?
Guy and Kris, I know this is a new thread, but could we in the future have a thread specifically for the topic of how to find a healthy chuch? Discussion could include: signs of a healthy church, specific questions to ask members/elders/pastors. Of course there is no perfect church, but there are clearly red flags.
I don’t know whether it is my long history with the homeschooling “movement”, but we tend to gravitate towards unhealthy churches and I don’t want to fall into that trap again. The residual effects of attending a church similar to SGM is long lasting. And as I’ve been reading this blog over the years, I read similar posts about people afraid to try a new church again after being so hurt. This topic might benefit a number of people.
Bethany, Great Authors of the past have said: Keep one eye on your sin, and one eye on the cross.
Robert Murry said, for every one look at your sin, take 10 looks at the cross.
Luna Moth,
Has your comment posted on the Courier-Journal? I also left a comment, but it is still awaiting moderation. There was only one comment posted, and it didn’t seem like it was from you.
Mine is still awaiting moderation too. I just posted 10 minutes ago. I used the same name and pic as I do here and when I occasionally post on Refuge. I’ve posted on a couple of other blogs commenting about CJ’s stepping down, too–all as Luna Moth.
MH asked where do people go from here?
Someone else asked that in an earlier section and it’s a good question. Here is what poster Matt said:
” understand the concern you have but honestly, I’m not sure when my family will EVER set foot in a church again. We get that question asked of us all the time. But when you are so wounded or you have a knee jerk reaction to certain phrases or words, it’s hard to trust again. I wouldn’t say our family has given up our faith in Jesus, just our faith in men.”
There really is not much to choose from that it is not immersed in “ministry” as a career professional and hierarchy. I recommend to people who are “quitting church” (Anyone read that book?) that they give themselves some time to really study deeply and pray that God will send some very serious believers into their life they can share with outside the organization.
At some point, they might be in a spiritual condition to be an encouragement in a brick and mortar church. But they need to be at the point they do not identify with the “organization” or the cult of personality with the leaders but only with the truth of the Word with other believers, with Christ being central to everything. Non salvic doctrines can be areas of disagreement but not deal breakers with fellowship.
Our flesh is naturally into being in a group or movement for identity purposes. If our identity is with Christ…and Christ alone, it is amazing what sort of people you will eventually attract. Other believers seriously seeking deeper truths. It is not easy.
We need to be at the point in our study that we are no longer impressed with mere men. That we can listen to teaching and be discerning. The only problem with this is that listening to sermons week after week from one guy as a pew sitter can be quite annoying if you are really digging into the Word. No sharing or digging deeper together in that context can be stifling. You can see why people rarely grow past the preacher. He does all the study for them or if they do study, they read through his lens/filter.
http://vodpod.com/watch/1576407-run-by-carter-conlon
This whole situation has been a huge part of my life the last week, especially since Sunday! Yesterday I was wondering what could happen next–then Mohler’s comments were published!
But O Lord, let Your truth be stronger, let Your truth shine brighter!
MH,
In no way am I trying to minimize the importance that the cross holds in a Christians life but what I am saying is being “cross centered” is a distortion of the gospel. For too long have I listened to what “Great Authors” have said when instead, I should have only been listening to what the Greatest Author has said in His word.
The cross is what allows me to have an intimate relationship with Jesus but my eyes needn’t be fixed there, not at all. Instead I will let my eyes stay fixed on the Risen One because that NOT the cross is where my hope lies.
Jewel, that’s a great idea about presenting info on how to find a healthy church here.
MH, another response to your question is the following:
God does open doors. While praying and looking for a healthier local church, it can help to listen to online broadcasts by people like David Jeremiah, who has several times in sermons strongly emphasized that he is no better than anyone else just because he is a preacher. He’s giving a good sermon series on encouragement right now, so the timing might be good for some. It starts out with a talk titled “Everybody is a somebody” and today’s broadcast is “When all else fails.”
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/turning-point/
There are wonderful churches out there; don’t give up. Our God provides. There is much that can be learned from a rough experience. For one thing, it helps you reach out to others and lean on the Lord more.
Books helping distinguish between unhealthy churches and healthy – also, helping bring about healing after a rough experience. I’ve only read two of these, so as with everything let the buyer beware – be discerning through prayer and Scripture.
More Jesus, Less Religion
http://www.amazon.com/More-Jesus-Less-Religion-Relationship/dp/0307458822/ref=pd_sim_b_2
Tired of Trying to Measure Up
http://www.amazon.com/Tired-Trying-Measure-Expectations-Intimidation/dp/0764205374/ref=pd_sim_b_4
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse
http://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Power-Spiritual-Abuse-Manipulation/dp/0764201379/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1310489552&sr=1-1
Toxic Faith
http://www.amazon.com/Toxic-Faith-Understanding-Between-Spiritual/dp/0785272216
I’ve been through an independent church split where the congregants were dividing into mobs, I’ve received the left foot of fellowship from a pastor at another independent church, and I’ve been to numerous other churches from southern baptist to catholic and I can tell you this:
the only thing that makes a difference is the Holy Spirit!
If you have the Holy Spirit moving among your church there will be liberty.
pssst… I hear they’re experiencing revival in Fredericksburg :D
Lig Duncan on CJ and SGM:
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2011/07/a-word-about-cj-mahaney-and-so.php
:barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:
Now Ligon Duncan…
:(
I wonder how John Piper will respond. My heart is so heavy.
Ligon Duncan has done the same.
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2011/07/a-word-about-cj-mahaney-and-so.php
Notice how Lig frames it: only listen to the SGM side, not those nasty people on the internet. WHAT ABOUT JH’s COMMENTS, LIG??? Is there something going on here? Is there an internal power struggle between CJ and JH?? Maybe CJ is getting his boys to back him publicly after Sunday Night’s FM at CLC?
Ligon Duncan says:
If you read this, you will get a taste of the fruit of Gospel repentance that is already being borne in SGM. It would have been very easy for the leadership of SGM to ignore and dismiss these charges, because so many of them are so evidently self-serving and spurious accusations. But instead, the leadership of SGM has taken the high road, or rather they have chosen to go the way of self-examination, submission to outside review and correction, self-abasement and repentance. It just makes me love and respect them all the more.
These leaders (Ligon and Mohler) are condemning Brent for his “self-serving and spurious” accusations, but the process Brent follows and documents is not an aberration from SGM policy and culture, it IS SGM’s policy and culture.
Thanks for the link wowzers.
Interesting:
– Ligon Duncan admonishes those who would pass judgement on SGM because they don’t have “real knowledge” of what is happening.
– Duncan has been able to fully discern the heart of SGM and judged it to be good.
– Duncan has been able to fully discern the heart of the Blogers and judged it to be bad
– Duncan, by implication, assumes he has full knowledge of the the experiences of the bloggers.
Amazing!! Obviously Duncan doesn’t see his overwhelming hypocrisy in just a couple of paragraphs.
Someone asked in the comments of the previous post about which SGM church I attend. At this time, I’d prefer not to say. Not that I’m fearful of how our pastor might respond, but I know there are a few in our church who have read from other pastors warning about the gossip of the blogs. For the sake of keeping completely open communication with them, I’d prefer to remain anonymous. I hope that will allow me to speak to ears that are more trusting and open.
One thought…it might be helpful to have some way to research issues with your particular church. As “presbyterian” said, I suspect the closer you are to the leaders at the top, the larger your church probably is and the more likely you’ve had problems with leadership in your church. To some extent that’s probably expected – more people = more relational conflicts and disagreements, but you’d figure the more senior leadership should be better equipped to deal with those problems with godly wisdom and character. My impression is that while there’s been a lot of talk about pastoral character being more important than gifting, it’s the “gifting” that’s helped people advance into leadership roles that revealed some serious character flaws.
Gotta love the hypocrisy in Ligon Duncan’s little post. It’s ok for me to judge people and say mean things about people I don’t know and write it all down and post it online but it’s not ok for other people to do that. That’s because I’m an important guy (and so is C.J. of course) and you blog people are worthless and stupid and sinful.
Sooo. if any leader disagrees with you they are automatically wrong and close minded?
Great, thanks for this post. I better make sure i’m in line with infallible author of this blog and his perspective and it’s infallible contributors.
I really wish Mohler and Duncan could have at least said they would take a wait and see approach. Let the process run its course before we comment. Even if they wanted to help CJ’s image, wouldn’t it have been better to let their friend, Mark Dever, go through the process with CJ and just affirm whatever public sentiments he voices at the end of it all. Their public comments just seem to back Mark Dever into a corner when I really hoped he’d be able to provide a “fair and accurate” appraisal to the public. Hopefully, Dever will take some of Josh Harris’ comments to heart as he goes through this process.
Unfortunately, Mohler and Duncan have made it more difficult for their friend to come out of this without further criticism by speaking so quickly. :(
My experience with many leaders has led me to this conclusion-When a leader fails to call a spade a spade, it is very possible that they are guilty of similar dealings or are too afraid to deal with the relational and financial fallout of disturbing the status quo.
Honestly, I expected that from Mohler. I did not, however, expect that from Duncan. (Though, now that I’ve thought about it, it does make sense that both men would want to protect their own interests.)
This quote from Duncan really bothers me: “I would then encourage you to ignore the assaults of wounded people on attack websites and blogs”
Wounded animals snap at someone who attempts to look at their wounds, but that doesn’t mean you ignore them and leave them to suffer! Children may react angrily when you attempt to look at where they’ve been hurt, but that doesn’t mean you ignore them! No, it means that you calm them down, talk to them to find out where they hurt, and them examine and treat the injury. Why would those who’ve been wounded spiritually be any different?
LD: “I would then encourage you to ignore the assaults of wounded people on attack websites and blogs…..
It is clear that far from a scandalous cover up, our brothers at Sovereign Grace are taking these matters with utter seriousness and are endeavoring to walk in Gospel repentance and humility and fidelity. C.J. knows of my complete love and respect for him.”
Ugh.
Pray God opens their eyes. They may just be in denial. It will be so embarassing and shameful to them to realize they were taken in by CJ.
What is it about actual emails from CJ in his very own words that they don’t get? How can you ignore the hypocrisy over the years? Right now I will try to believe the best, ie, that Lig didn’t read the actual documents. But is he asking why people are wounded and what caused the wounds?
Double ugh.
people on facebook are now posting this link about how you shouldn’t pass on bad reports (especially on blogs)
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2008/08/04/keller-and-powlison-should-you-pass-on/
i’m finding people are looking for ANYTHING to give cj a break.
Amanda,
That’s what a local church, your community of believers, husband, wife, pastors, deacons are for. Go to them with wounds and issues. Get their care. Get their council. This blog does not replace your church.
Then demand that these issues be looked at by a reputable third party since it involves such serious accusations.
Mohler and Ligan are acting in love. They know a process is in place, it may involve them, but they will wait to make serious judgement until all parties involve have their say.
Just some thoughts
Mr. Duncan calls the people on the blogs “wounded people”, yet fails to ask the obvious next question: wounded by whom?
Hey, Brother Duncan, who wounded God’s people here?
Shouldn’t you care for the wounded?
Jeremiah 6:14
They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. ‘Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace.
http://phoenixpreacher.net/?p=8039#comments
BE SURE NOT TO MISS THIS!!!!
I have respected and learned much from many of these men in the “Gospel Coalition.”
However, it is becoming all too clear from their words, that some of them, at least, have an attitude of superiority towards Christians who are not in the elite aristocracy of the high priestly and ruling class of celebrity “Christian” corporatism.
Although, they will deny believing in the Roman Catholic, and high church system of clergy/laity, it is proven to be their true belief by their adversarial posturing.
Do you think the T4G meetings between Mohler, Duncan, Mahaney, and Dever contain all the sin searching we see in the A-team meetings? When those men read these documents and give CJ a clean bill of health, should everyone expect they see these things as typical? Is it how they interact in all their other contexts as well?
MH,
I think there are a lot of ways your “Where do we go from here?” question could be answered wisely.
I really like what Jasper said in his #9. That covers a LOT.
What worked for Guy and me was lowering our expectations. I know that’s going to sound really odd, but at the heart of what led us into hot water at our pre-SGM church, and what caused us to be attracted to SGM, was a desire to be somewhere that gave us all-encompassing answers and was “the best.” While it’s true that all of us know on some level that “no church is perfect,” it’s also true that many of us have a deep and abiding desire to believe that what we’ve found is indeed perfection.
After leaving SGM, we did not feel like we had the luxury of not going to church. First of all, we were raised to believe that believers will make a priority out of spending regularly scheduled time with other believers. For us, the easiest way to do that is to be part of an organized church entity.
Secondly, we have kids, and we felt a tremendous responsibility to give our kids the example of making a priority out of spending time worshipping and learning and fellowshipping with other Christians. We did not want to bring up our children without that habit.
Thirdly (and this is less significant but I fully admit that it did factor into our commitment to quickly finding another church), we did not want the people in our families calling our faith into question because of our lack of church attendance.
So those are the things that motivated Guy and me. And because of those motivations, we cast about rather desperately for someplace – any place, really – that would be generic and “safe” and yet still hold to a high view of scripture. We ended up at a church pretty close to home (we were also committed – and I forgot about this one – to only attend someplace that was truly “local” in the literal sense, as we’d decided that there was something wrong with feeling compelled to drive 30 miles to be part of a “local” church). At first we started going just because we were OK with the statement of faith and because it had some denominational ties, with accountability for its leaders.
We completely ditched trying to find something that was both “Reformed” AND “Charismatic.”
We lowered our expectations.
The funny thing is, the church where we landed has turned out to inspire a slow burn of love. No, there was no immediate, overwhelming delight from our very first visit. And yes, it’s not been easy to make connections among other people. I attended a ladies’ Bible study for nearly a year before feeling like I’d reached a place of knowing even a handful of people.
But…gradually things have gotten much better. And the best part of all is that there is a level of freedom at our new church – a level of non-homogeneity – where people are FREE to take different approaches to certain non-essentials and FREE to have differences of opinion. And that brings with it an element of safety.
I don’t believe there’s any one single approach to “Where do we go from here” that’s necessarily the “most correct” approach. But I do know that the Lord leads, and sometimes it happens in subtle and non-dramatic ways. Our family’s experience with finding a new church has been a reminder of God’s faithfulness…and how it is He who leads and keeps us and continues to draw us to Himself.
Re: Passing on rumors & those vicious blogs
The blogs exist because there isn’t a system of redress.
According to SGM, they are only looking into wrongdoings at the intra-pastoral level. (Not w/ the laity)
SGM could totally shut down the blogs by pulling them into the process. Give the “wounded” a voice in this process and it will resolve the need for “voice” that is only resolved in the blogs.
“Either Mr. Mohler didn’t read all of Brent Detwiler’s documents as closely as he claims, or else he must not be terribly alarmed by the idea that the head of a “family of churches” could engage in what would qualify as blackmail…and for years sidestep serious accountability for himself while demanding that other men in his organization be “de-gifted” for lesser failings.”
The blackmail does not count. Remember Larry? That one was taken care of…seems CJ was finally wisening up that he should take Larry up on his efforts to seek reconciliation. Timing was perfect.
As to Mohler, this does not surprise me at all. I expected it…even sooner. Mohler is one of the most astute politicians out there.
Even if he read the doc (an exec assistant probably did a summary for him) he would not see a big deal. Because NOBODY would sin sniff Mohler. Not even his trustees. It simply would not be allowed. He would find some strategic way to deal with that person.
There is many a dead body in the wake of Mohler’s career at SBTS. One guy was fired after 35 years with only 6 months to go for retirement because he corrected a chapel speaker by letter. A nice correction. The guy did not get his full retirement. Mohler was about 30 years younger than the man at the time.
In fact, they are probably mentoring CJ on how to tighten the reigns of control once the PR is over. IN their minds, Brent was subordinate to Mahaney and had not right to go against him in any way. These guys make a good case for accountability on stage but they do not submit to it in private. You are fooling yourself if you believe that.
For some reason, people have a hard time believing that the guys they love on stage are not tyrants in person when it comes to leading their organizations and their fame in Christian circles. How do you think they got there?.
The distance from the stage is farther than you think. What you see on stage is not how it works behind the curtain. I wish more people could see it first hand.
But what happens is if you get back there, you are liable to get sucked in because you are so excited to be there…among greatness.
Put your faith in Christ alone. Not man. Not one of these men is your superior in the spiritual realm.
What is the one thing that is needed for a cult/cultish organization to survive and flourish? Followers. All of this going on is a lesson/wake-up call for us all. God gave us a brain with which to process, reason, and DISCERN. I am not taking away AT ALL from SGM leaders’ culpability; you can be sure of that. What I am saying is that pastors do NOT have authority over us – God and the laws of our land do. Pastors can not tell us whether or not we can go to the police about an issue, take our child to the doctor, attend someone’s wedding, get legal counsel regarding divorce, etc. We have a choice here, people! God is THE final authority over us – no one else. If I am doctrinally off here, feel free to correct. One more thing, maybe some CLC pastors who are not blinded, who see this situation as serious as it really is, will start their own church. I know at least a few of us would gladly follow.
Duncan states in his blog: “It is clear that far from a scandalous cover up, our brothers at Sovereign Grace are taking these matters with utter seriousness and are endeavoring to walk in Gospel repentance and humility and fidelity.”
Really, Duncan? How humble is it to disclose only because SGM was going to be publicly outed?
“endeavoring to walk in Gospel repentance?” (Gospel repentance comes from within, not because someone leaked a revealing 600-page document)
No “scandalous cover-up”? What are you smoking, dude – how can you not say that the Larry blackmail was not a coverup.
And once again, it’s all about CJ. I guess he’s not including Josh in SGM Leaders because Josh very clearly told his congregants to read specifically SGMRefuge and SGMsurvivors sites. And once again it is as if the true victims of abuse – the body – have been ignored.
This stuff is nauseating. I’m glad in a way. It’s forcing me to go to the only true Source. Thank you for that, Duncan.
Still can’t help but see something here… Josh says “read the blogs, etc”. CJs friends say “dismiss the blogs, don’t pay attention to those people”.
All I know is that I am losing more and more respect for the YYR hero’s. I had little left to begin with.
I can’t remember who said this – it was on one of the previous threads and I’m too rushed to go back and look now – but someone (maybe Breezey? Whirlwind?) pointed out that one thing to keep in mind is that C.J. Mahaney has NEVER actually had a “view from the cheap seats,” because since pretty much the beginning of his Christian faith, he has always been in a position of leadership.
That could be one reason for his apparent lack of ability to see himself as someone who needs to follow the rules that he put on all his other followers.
Just a thought.
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CLCerNow – your #43 is good! :word
PDI5years,
RE: that great link you shared from Phoenix preacher. He certainly gets it:
“Harris confession and recognition was a good start toward resolution…the problem I have is with the steps they have outlined that will follow.
Mahaney will be examined and disciplined by people who are as guilty as he is.
Good luck with that.
A third party independent commission will also be brought in to look at the evidence.
In other words…it’s still all about the leaders.
If they want real repentance and reconciliation go back to those bloggers God used to help bring this about and invite them in be part of the process.
Bring in the wounded who have paid in spirit for the sins of the leaders and let them judge and discipline.
Get off the power trips and privileged relationships and go back and be accountable to the people you were supposed to be serving.
If they don’t…this is nothing more than sanctimonious breast beating with the outcome already determined.
If they do…this could be a moment of the greatest outpouring of grace and power that these men have ever known… and revival and healing would follow”
So again I ask…
When will you be satisfied? What needs to happen so that this site shuts down and you all move on in your own lives? What needs to take place so you can flourish in a local church rather than tracking down information about your former “cult” leader/pastor C.J. Mahaney?
I feel like the guy could truly repent, SGM could be terminated, and Mahaney could seek forgiveness from all of you, and still…. you all would have resentment.
Interesting thought regarding “gossip”:
When critique levied against SGM happens on the blogs, SGM calls it gossip.
When SGM critiques Rob Bell, they put it on their own blog.
I guess the latter blog activity is not “gossip.”
Curious – you miss the reality that even though some don’t currently go to SGM – they are still impacted by SGM in profoundly negative ways.
You also seem to miss the fact that SGM has made no pretense of addressing the harm done to the laity in this process.