Statements…From SGM’s Board, Josh Harris, Brent Detwiler, And A Couple of Commenters
July 13, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
The board of Sovereign Grace Ministries released the following statement today:
Last week we announced that C.J. Mahaney would be taking a temporary leave of absence from his position as President of Sovereign Grace Ministries. This leave was intended to create a fair and open process of evaluation for C.J. and the ministry and was not intended to be disciplinary. We assumed that the charges against him would remain private and that following the evaluation period, we would be able to announce publicly an independent evaluation panel’s findings.
Since our announcement Brent Detwiler sent his accusations against C.J. and Sovereign Grace to all Sovereign Grace pastors. His material has also been published on the internet. Brent sent his material to the Sovereign Grace pastors despite repeated appeals that he engage C.J. and Sovereign Grace through the agency of an independent mediator, and if he refused to do that, to simply meet with an independent evaluation panel so they could examine his charges without C.J. or Sovereign Grace present to respond.
In light of the fact that C.J. has now been publicly accused with no opportunity to defend himself, the board of Sovereign Grace has made the following resolutions.
- That Brent Detwiler’s refusal to participate in mediation with C.J. Mahaney—unless Mahaney first agrees (a) to publish an extensive written response to each of Detwiler’s accusations and (b) to make a public confession prior to any mediation or impartial evaluation of his charges—is unjust and constitutes a denial of biblically grounded due process for a qualified minister of the gospel (Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Timothy 5:19-20, Proverbs 25:9).
.- That Brent Detwiler’s distribution of written accusations against C.J. Mahaney to all Sovereign Grace pastors constitutes the public slander of Mahaney’s reputation.
.- That the board of Sovereign Grace Ministries has reviewed Brent Detwiler’s documents accusing C.J. Mahaney of sinful practices in the conduct of his ministry and finds no reason at this time to deem him unfit for ministry. However, the board will reevaluate Mahaney’s fitness after receiving formal evaluation of the accusations lodged against him (see below). The board acknowledges that sins have been committed but also recognizes and appreciates Mahaney’s eagerness to confess sins, pursue reconciliation with Detwiler, and pursue personal holiness and growth as a minister.
.- That C.J. Mahaney is a qualified minister of the gospel and this board approves his pastoral and teaching ministry in Sovereign Grace and the wider body of Christ.
.- That Sovereign Grace Ministries will engage a process of evaluation regarding CJ Mahaney’s fitness for ministry.
A preliminary panel will examine confessions that Mahaney has already made to determine if at present he is qualified to be a pastor and the president of Sovereign Grace. In light of the public defamation of his character, this is to be done with all deliberate speed. The board deems this preliminary panel necessary to show that while it has concluded that Mahaney is fit for ministry, other temporary outside evaluation is necessary either to lend credibility to its assessment or to make changes this panel deems necessary.
A second panel will commence work concurrent with the first. It will consist of members of an independent conciliation ministry with no ties to Sovereign Grace. This panel will create a process for examination of the outstanding charges against Mahaney and create and lead a process for a fair hearing of those charges to determine if they are true or false. The board will then seek review and comment from qualified pastors with a good reputation in the body of Christ who are not directly associated with the ministry. The board will then make a determination of appropriate action in light of the panel’s findings and the advice of the above pastors.
Dave, Aron, Craig, Jeff, John, Mark, Mickey, Pete, Rick, and Steve
EDITED TO ADD: Brent Detwiler gives the following response to the Sovereign Grace Ministries board’s statement:
I worked extremely hard to only include factual information that could be substantiated by primary source material. I didn’t rely on memory but on notes, minutes, recordings and documents. In each of my writings, I’ve repeatedly asked C.J. and the SGM Board to correct any factual error (see Concluding Remarks, pp. 193-198). They have not done so. I am very glad to correct my documents where they are shown to be in error. That has been my position from the beginning. I don’t want to be a false witness in any fashion. In all my writings, I strove to be a truthful witness. Proverbs 12:17 – “A truthful witness gives honest testimony, but a false witness tells lies.” But thus far they have made no attempt to prove falsity. I continue to welcome any and all adjustments from the SGM Board. I’ve only asked that their criticisms not be based on memory alone. Their recollections need to be corroborated by supporting documents. Hearsay evidence (he said/she said) is no evidence. Moreover, I think you could remove all of my personal correspondence and a strong case remains with regard to the seriousness of C.J.’s sins. For instance, look at the official notes recorded by Bob Kauflin on August 20, 2004 at that most critical of meetings (see Response Regarding Friendship & Doctrine, pp. 16-28). I’d also point to Dave Harvey’s assessment of C.J.’s hypocrisy (see Response Regarding Friendship & Doctrine, pp. 29-30). These are just two examples among many others.
Josh Harris had this, entitled Critics and Assyrians, to say on his own blog:
Last week I preached from Hebrews 12:1-11 called “The Father’s Discipline.” The point of the message is that God disciplines us because he loves us, that his discipline hurts, and that we must be trained by it. Instead of doubting God’s love, we should see that he is treating us as sons and daughters.
But I want to amend something I said in that message. At one point I compared people criticizing our church to the Assyrians who attacked the people of Israel. I wanted to make the point that even people who seem like enemies (and who use methods we don’t appreciate) can be used by God in his loving discipline. Afterwards two fellow pastors pointed out that it wasn’t fair to compare fellow-Christians who disagree with our church to a pagan invading enemy army. I realize now that they’re right and I should have more carefully qualified (or just left out) the statement.
So, to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who disagree with my books on dating, or who have disagreements or concerns for my church or for Sovereign Grace Ministries, I want to clearly state that I don’t view you as enemies. And I’m grateful that many of you have expressed the same sentiment to me. I pray that in the days to come we will all grow in civility, in listening, in gentleness and in honoring the Lord with speech that builds up (even when we disagree.)
Brent Detwiler wanted to pass this on to our readers here:
I want to thank everyone for their prayers and concerns including Jim, Kris and Guy. Survivors and Refuge have been used of God to get the attention of SGM. People have been hurt by us. There are problems that need to be fixed and sins that need to be acknowledged. If you have written me, please pardon me if I am slow to respond. I’ve been inundated with messages and I am trying to keep my focus on private appeals to SGM. And as you can imagine, I’ve been attacked from many sides but I’ve also been encouraged by many dear folks – including some I’ve sinned against in the past like Canary. Please write me if you fell I’ve harmed you in the past. I may not be able to respond quickly but I’d love to hear from you.
Finally, here is an exchange between two commenters – “curious” and “just saying…”:
“curious” asked,
When will you be satisfied? What needs to happen so that this site shuts down and you all move on in your own lives? What needs to take place so you can flourish in a local church rather than tracking down information about your former “cult” leader/pastor C.J. Mahaney?
“just saying…” replied,
It is not about bitterness and anger. It is about the need to hear Truth.
We need someone in authority to say, “This was wrong and God did not do it to you.” When you are rejected by the only church you thought was right, by the only leaders you thought truly represented God, it is as if God rejected you. Although some people here have found liberty and restored their relationship with God by hearing others on the blog tell them over and over again that this was wrong and God did not do this, some of us are still enslaved by the opinions of the leaders we followed and can’t get past it.
We needed JH to stand up there and say this was wrong. We needed Al Mohler and outside parties to investigate what really happened to everyday members that vanished. We need someone we respect to renounce all that happened to us. We need it in order to ever think we can approach God again.
I was so completely encouraged by Josh Harris on Sunday night. I was so completely demolished by Al Mohler and friends supporting CJ without knowing any of the facts. It is so excruciatingly painful to have friends vocally expressing blind support for CJ and attacking the victims. It’s like going through it all over again…only the whole church body is doing it to you.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Unfortunately I can’t read all the comments right now. I am re-posting this on Kris’s new entry we a few other comments.
Despite the bad news we all need to remember the God we serve. The God who works miracles and I could on and on.
Lets pray God uses these actions so that the “folly” of these men will be revealed to all as the scripture say.
If we didn’t have the God that we have, then we wouldn’t have the hope we have. I do know this can be hard to believe for how long that this has gone on for and something we have been blogging about for 3 years or more.
Lets pray that SGM members in various SGM Churches see the hypocrisy in this. Lets also pray that SGM Pastors also see the hypocrisy in this.
Mahaney: (figuratively speaking) Your house (SGM) is on fire. Why the plan for the pastors conference at your house? It may be burned down by this fall.
It looks like Josh Harris feels like someone who found out their father did something bad. Examples could include molestation, steeling, adultery, etc. I am sure this isn’t easy for him. Lets pray for him.
I am sure this isn’t for a lot of SGM Members who thought the world of Mahaney. Some will deny or for a period deny this contradiction.
OK I but I am sad :cry:
I was one of the people that though things would be different this time becuase there was actual proof. My heart really goes out to Brent becuase like my personal situation all he was doing was trying to walk out scripture…..
Someone asked whether Josh was the only name missing. The full list of men on the leadership team can be found here: http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/about-us/leadership.aspx.
Josh was the only name missing.
My take is here:
http://livingtext.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/the-sgm-board-responds/
This makes me so sad. This sounds exactly like what happened to us personally when we were in our SGM church. We bring up an area of serious concern involving the safety of children and because they tell us that we were sinful in the way we brought it up (we didn’t think we were they wouldn’t take care of the problem. Sudenly the problem because about us and how we were “sinfully judging”. I know that we weren’t the only ones who got the line either. So now in this situation all the board had to do was say that Brent handled this wrongly and they don’t have to listen. Figure out how to say that the messenger is sinning or didn’t handle it “biblically” and then they don’t have to listen. I am also really sad to see our former pastor on that board as one of the names signed to the statement. It doesn’t surprise me though.
I am thankful for all that Josh has said though. That is much more encouraging.
With great sympathy for the victims, I have to say this quote is seriously problematic:
“some of us are still enslaved by the opinions of the leaders we followed and can’t get past it.
We needed JH to stand up there and say this was wrong. We needed Al Mohler and outside parties to investigate what really happened to everyday members that vanished. We need someone we respect to renounce all that happened to us. We need it in order to ever think we can approach God again.”
Anybody who feels this was and thinks this way is still in deep bondage. You don’t need anybody to do anything so you can draw near to God. Jesus shed His blood so we can access God, and I strongly urge you to get serious counseling so you can walk with the Lord, whether SGM leaders repent or not. You are still putting men in the place of the blood of Jesus as your covering, letting men stand in the stead of God.
If you are still enslaved by their opinions try reading “When people are BIG and god is small” by Ed Welch for starters. Please get help, get counseling.
No matter what they did, if we can’t get over it as adults, the problem we need to deal with is inside us. (not saying this for the kids….God will deal fiercely with them for crimes against little kids).
If they never change and never repent, we can have joy, access to God, and a rich and full and happy life. Please, anybody still “under” them, please get help. A cyber forum is nice but probably not adequate.
Is SGM a cult? Questions to ask yourself:
1. Does the group leader have a special charm and persuasion that its people find inexplicable and hard to resist? Yes. Mahaney is a celebrity often receiving thunderous applause when he speaks. In the minds of many, he can do no wrong.
2. Do the people in the group seem a bit too friendly, loving, smiling and happy? Yes. New people are love bombed (a technique used in cult recruiting, in which membership in the cult is intimately linked to love and attachment which engender complete loyalty to the cause.)
3. Do the people in the group offer to help with almost anything church centered? Yes. Most are rarely involved with service outside SGM that spreads the Gospel to unbelievers. They mostly recruit people from other churches.
4. Does the group claim to have a special mission or calling that is unique and not found elsewhere? Yes. No other church emphasizes both the charismatic and reformed. The church music was created within SGM ranks. All pastors must attend the church’s own special college for SGM training.
5. Have many people and/or leaders have left the group and if so, why? Hundreds if not more. In fact SGM has a largely negative Internet presence as a result of people sharing concerns over abuse.
6. Are there any checks and balances of the leadership and power structure? No, the congregations have no input.
7. Does the group have a constitution or laws of government? No. If after the WikiLeak incident, one is formed, it appears that the people will have little voice in the content.
8. Do quite a few people talk about their pastor a lot, as though he is God? Yes, in fact in one sermon C.J. Mahaney said that when all believers stand before Christ for the first time, they will be surrounding their pastor and thanking Christ for him.
9. What is the group’s view on leadership authority and discipleship? The pastors are central and the congregant’s job is to make his pastor happy as described in Mahaney’s sermon “The Happiest Place on Earth”. Quote by C.J. Mahaney regarding the congregation’s role, “The effectiveness of pastoral ministry is dependent upon a proper response TO pastoral ministry.”
10. What is the group’s view on dating and marriage? Rigid styles of courtship are heavily encouraged and young people are carefully monitored in the congregation. Women are under the covering of their husbands and fathers, and have very little voice outside the sphere of things pertaining to women.
11. Is there an elitist mentality? Yes. Many view SGM as superior due to its understanding of the importance of both the charismatic and the reformed, along with recognition of giftings. This is used to keep people from considering other churches. Many who have left SGM were shunned. The SGM atmosphere is pharisaical.
12. How do your parents or close relations outside of the group feel about it? Many are concerned for those they love in SGM churches.
13. What are the finances of the group? Are there secrets? Yes, see http://www.wartburgwatch.com on Mahaney and Al Mohler.
14. Does the group motivate its members mostly through fear and guilt? Yes. Sin-sniffing is common through confessions in front of groups.
15. Have any articles been written about the group? Yes, the Internet has thousands of negative postings with several blogs focused on the abuses.
16. Are there disgruntled former members? Yes, a great many.
17. Do the disgruntled former members all more or less tell a similar story to why they left? Yes, most describe pastoral abuse but even sexual abuse has occurred and been ignored by the leadership.
18. Did they leave because they disagreed with either the teachings or the practices of the group or its leader? Yes.
19. How was the disagreement handled? Through shunning and shaming. No direct acknowledgement of abuses toward individual members has arisen even after the WikiLeaks expose.
20. Does your gut level feeling about this group tell you that something is wrong? Yes.
Questions taken from Paul Martin’s book Cult Proofing Your Kids.
Someone needs to tell the SGM leadership team that a statement is only slander when it’s not true. They appear to be under the impression that criticism = slander. A quick look in the dictionary will clarify the matter as will a long stretch in the defendant’s chair when the sexual abuse scandal comes front and center as it always does.
I hate to say it, but part of the problem with SGM is likely that most of its leadership is less-than-well-educated. Perhaps there’s a good reason most mainstream denominations require their ministers to be college-educated and attend an accredited seminary.
I am tremendously sad to see this. Also angry and heartwrenched.
But my hope is all the more in Jesus, who knows the truth and who cares about justice.
“I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I have not said to the seed of Jacob: Seek me in vain. I am the Lord that speak justice, that declare right things.” Isaiah 45:19 (Douay-Rheims translation)
I left a comment on the SGM blog post telling them how shocked and disappointed I was. I told them “You just destroyed the last shred of confidence that I had in you.” My comment has not been approved, apparently. My husband also sent a polite email to SGM telling them to discontinue all future automatic contributions to Sovereign Grace Ministries, and gave the reason why. So, so sad.
Marge aka Green Thumb
Indiana Christian Fellowship 1981-1986
Covenant Life Church 1986-1991
CrossWay Community Church (Charlotte) 1991 to present
I’m curious. Does anyone know if the money CJ Mahaney gave Mohler came from his personal bank account or the SGM bank account?
This response is the most grievous of all the documentation I’ve read so far concerning CJ’s departure. I find it highly suspect that the very men implicated in Brent’s documentation are the ones signing their name and overseeing this process. This of course is a conflict of interest for them and they should not be in the role of overseeing the process.
While I find the process unjust, I reminded my mom (still a CLC member) that God is still on His throne and he will come again to judge the quick and the dead. These injustices will be dealt with, finally and fully, in this life or the life to come. As believers, we can rest in that fact.
I know that I can be tempted to let anger build up within my mind against the men on the board. Their actions, dare I say their sins, affect many people whom I love. Yet God is still at work. As a believer, and as a child who was raised at CLC, I think I have a unique perspective to offer my friends still at CLC. If you knew me there, please feel free to reach out to me (via facebook or ask Kris for my email address) and I would be happy to give you my perspective on the current distress within the church. I am very sad for you all to have to go through this, but remember that Jesus is the life, the truth and the way. Search for that truth! Let the Holy Spirit guide you! Go where you don’t want to go to seek the truth! Praying for you all.
@Green Thumb, I too left a comment, which has not been approved yet, describing my sadness over their dismissal of serious and hard evidence. I’ll be monitoring today to see if it’s been approved. Something interesting to note is that they’ve only had one positive comment approved.
All. We need to continue to pray for CLC and Josh Harris.
The fact that Josh Harris name is missing from the latest SGM letter simply cannot be an accidental omission.
Michelle,
There are 3 separate entities that gave to SBTS:
CJ Mahaney
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Covenant Life Church
CLC is not as high as SGM or CJ, but all 3 are donors.
Turning the charges away because they do not like the way it is unfolding… Hmmm.
Ok, these men are sold to CJ, and not Christ.
Sounds like CJ had a hand in writing this as some of the language is almost verbatim CJ from the Wiki docs.
What you win them with, you win them to, these men are sold out to the private spiritual fantasy
of CJ. If Josh’s omition is intentional, how sad to see these men draw a separate camp for the sake of their jobs. How pathetic that they would
pander to CJ, rather than fall before the risen Savior and repent.
@Mike Cole
Yes, I agree. My husband and I are earnestly praying for Josh. May God give him courage and strength.
:?: :?: :?: Who will you follow today :?: :?: :?:
There is a decision placed before the leaders and pastors and members of SGM. Each of you must make this decision for yourself in the days that are to come. The decision is a simple one but will divide this church body into two parts.
The question before you is this:
:?: :?: :?: Who will you follow :?: :?: :?:
Leaders and Pastors, I ask you as individuals:
:?: :?: :?: Who will you follow :?: :?: :?:
John 12:42-43 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
:?: :?: :?: Leaders, who will you follow and what price are you willing to pay? Are you more interested in the approval of man rather than the approval of God? Are you willing to go so far as to be put out of the SGM leadership? Are you willing to follow even if it means your paycheck is forfeited and your reputation is forfeited? Who will you follow today :?: :?: :?:
Will you follow the leaders of the day, will you stay with your clan of comfort or will you step out and follow Jesus and confess Him and His ways? Will you work for God or will you work for the cause of SGM?
:?: :?: :?: Who will you follow :?: :?: :?:
Members, I ask you:
:?: :?: :?: Who will you follow today:?: :?: :?:
A time came in the ministry of Jesus on earth when he taught the crowd about the cost of following Him: partaking of his body and blood in communion.
John 6:57-58 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.
There had been many Jews who had been following and learning but in verse 66 we hear:
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
:?: :?: :?: Who will you follow :?: :?: :?:
Members, will you follow Jesus even if it is hard? Even if you might be alone? Even if your leaders do not? Even if everyone else seems to be going one way, will you be willing to walk against popular consent?
Are you willing to be the first to stand up and declare God’s Holiness and Righteousness?
Are you willing to hear the Lord speaking to your heart? Are you willing to hear the Lord instead of relying on your leadership to tell you what the Lord is saying?
How far are you willing to go in following the Lord?
Will you speak out a word?
Will you ask a question?
Will you make a declaration?
Will you publicly disagree?
Will you take a stand?
:?: :?: :?: Who will you follow :?: :?: :?:
Some will decide to follow their leaders and let the SGM system decide what to do about Brent’s accusations against CJ. The above letter seems to say that they will be bringing charges against Brent for slander although Brent did not release the documents to the general public. Some will find this decision note-worthy and righteous. They will continue to blindly follow where their leaders lead.
:?: :?: :?: Who will you follow – leaders or Jesus :?: :?: :?:
Others will decide to declare to God: Here am I, Lord. I am listening. My heart is tuned to You. You are my God and Father. Where You lead, I will follow. Your Word will be a Lamp unto my path.
Josh appears to be desirous of hearing the Lord. I pray he will press in and not be swayed by any fear or doubt.
:?: :?: :?: Josh, who will you follow :?: :?: :?:
Following the Lord comes with a cost and this choice is not unique to you now: many people over many centuries have had to make the decision and have paid great price for following Jesus. Do you believe in God and will you pay the cost to follow Him?
:?: :?: :?: Who will you follow :?: :?: :?:
CLC family meeting attendees:
Did Josh make any noises that he would pull back from SGM if need be?
To add to my last comment, Josh Harris is a member of the senior leadership team in SGM. why would he not sign it unless he disagreed with the findings?
Patricia:
Thanks for the helpful list. It brings several things together for me.
Phil
All,
I know most of us have issues with how we were treated. Let’s not forget these are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Our co-labors.
I mean honestly. I vowed never to enter that church again due to the harm they inflicted on my life.
It seems the Lord is at work here. I would suggest a day of prayer and fasting. Please consider.
I find it interesting (and unfortunate) that everyone keeps bringing up how Brent has brought up his charges. The SGM Board has done it, CJ has done it, Mohler characterizes it as a vendetta, Duncan says Brent is self-serving, and even Josh did it if I remember correctly.
I understand this seems to be deeply ingrained within SGM thinking – it’s extremely obvious when you read the documents and see CJ’s seeming obsession with needing to be corrected “correctly” by Brent and Dave.
It’s made me think – if your doctor came in and rather rudely said you had cancer, would your primary concern be his manners or your cancer? My children are experts at pointing to a sibling’s behavior when we’re talking about their own behavior. I suppose it’s natural for us all going back to the garden, but I just don’t get the continuing need to voice disagreement with Brent’s process while addressing the problems. It’s just an unfortunate diversion from the larger issues, but it’s probably effective if you’ve been taught the importance of “properly” addressing sin for years. I’d like to see this statement from the SGM Board:
1. We acknowledge that CJ coerced Larry Tomczak when he left SGM, but we don’t believe this is sufficient grounds for ANY time away from ministry.
2. We acknowledge that CJ has often been difficult to correct in relation to issues on the leadership team and within his relationship at CLC, but we don’t believe this is sufficient grounds for ANY time away from ministry.
3. We acknowledge that CJ has used his position on the leadership team to advance doctrinal positions without agreement from the team even when he knew members of the team would be opposed, but we don’t believe this is sufficient grounds for ANY time away from ministry.
4. With all of these things taken into consideration, CJ’s recent admission of repentance gives us cause to believe CJ is still beyond reproach, temperate, respectable, and maintains a good reputation with those outside SGM.
I wonder if they will be so bold as to issue such a clear statement when the evaluation process is complete. No doubt many more points could be added, but these stand out from the documents.
Well it looks like Mahaney supporters have their own documents posted:
http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/support-pastor-mahaney/
Will be interesting to see what is written there. As day for the body of Christ with the SGM Board’s decision and those rallying to support Mahaney.
My #17 in other words –
“Circle the wagons men, the gravy trains in trouble!!”
Seems that modeling Christ is off the SGM table.
Patricia, about your #7 – that is an EXCELLENT list.
I know a lot of people get worked up over ANY discussion about whether or not SGM would qualify as a “cult.” I apologize to our present-day SGMers, as I know many of you will find mention of the word “cult” offensive. (I personally am one who has always argued that SGM’s practices have cultic elements or have used “cultlike methodologies,” but I have always backed away from the full-blown characterization…in case anyone is wondering.)
But – to those of you who have sometimes wondered in the back of your mind (or pit of your stomach) whether SGM shares traits and behaviors with cultic organizations, please look at Patricia’s list.
@Sidney
Josh reiterated our love for Sovereign Grace, but emphasized his commitment to CLC and getting our polity and accountability issues fixed…insinuating that we would not wait on SGM to get on board if they were dragging their feet, so to speak. That is the impression I got..don’t remember his exact wording, though, so don’t quote me. Let’s see if some other members chime in to answer your question. I’d like to know if I interpreted his meaning correctly.
#245 from previous post Stunned: looking back on my original post where I first used the word scripted, this is what I said:
“It was not at all scripted (like CJ’s).”
Thinking about what I was probably mostly thinking was I was trying to communicate how Josh’s words were so very much not scripted compared to CJ’s which was most definitely a script.
I totally agree that Josh prepared ahead of time, I’m confident he had many meetings with the other pators at CLC, likely had conference calls and/or email exchanges with other men he respects across the country. He certainly came to that member meeting “prepared”. But his approach and demeanor and tone, was very much like a friend just wanting to talk about the latest problem with his boss at work or whatever [funny analogy actually!]
Anyway, thanks for all the bloggers and comments…I think this is a very healthy AND IMPORTANT part of this process. Thank you to Kris and the other creators/contributors to these platforms of truth.
…
[I haven’t had a chance to read these 24 new comments to this post…wish I could just take the week off work, re-read those 750+ pages and all of these great interactions on these blogs!] :)
So glad we are on the same page, Sister (or is it Brother?).
@beginning
Thanks for your response. Like I said I was where you were not that long ago. I deeply loved my SGM church and leaders once. Truly I thought the best of their motives and hearts until my own was just broken over my own experience and remaining relationship with the true God.
Many times I have even wondered if I wouldn’t be happier not knowing what I know. But I always come back to this, a real relationship with Jesus and others is worth so much more than defending my so called dearest and perfect place on earth.
SGM board thank you for showing your true colors. So tragic.
@Mike Cole, :new as a current CLC member, thank you for your heart for us! while this is a strange time, and trying in many ways, i am grateful that this does not seem to be a time of anyone questioning their faith, but more a revival of diving in to scripture and understanding the “whys” of what we believe. please, everyone, be praying for those of us who are still in this (please do not see that comment as an an attack to those who have left, i feel the utmost sense of pain and love for you all), who are asking the hard questions and praying about how to rally around our brothers in the faith who (it sure looks like to me); are being called to make some pretty hard and unpopular decisions. thank you, for all of you who have been and continue to pray, and thank you for writing your thoughts here, for all of us “still in it” to gain perspective, etc.
CLC Articles of Incorporation
http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/UCC-Charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=B%2000363&Folio=0094&Pages=0003&Date=04%2001%202002&Ack=1000361986842726&Domain=Charter&ID=D06734453&Name=COVENANT%20LIFE%20CHURCH,%20INC.&source=1
shows the “Directors” as:
CJ
Josh
Gary
John
Grant
Robin
Kenneth
CJ is the “Incorporator”
This is dated 2002.
I have no idea what any of this means other than…maybe, just maybe, if CLC chose to “leave” SGM, they could.
Does anyone know anything else?
Sidney
A heart wrenching follow up to Post #7:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOwsVMcScYU
NOTE: I edited the original post to reflect this, but I also want to post it here –
BRENT DETWILER’S RESPONSE TO THE BOARD’S STATEMENT:
Thank God this horrible ordeal is over. The problem has been identified – sorry Brent – you are enslaved to wrong opinions about those whom you served for over 30 years, get over it. This treatment of CJ has been so over the top and unjust, it has just broken our hearts. Thank God this was taken care of so the Mahaneys can get back on their vacation schedule – get ready Tennessee WooHoo!! And now SGM can get back to being the happiest place on earth. To God be the glory!! Guy, Kris, Jim, Carole – hold the presses, you can now shut down the blogs, all is well. You people need to just get over being enslaved by the opinions of these leaders we followed just need to get past it. I get it!!! Whew, much ado about nothing. Somebody pass the kool-aid, my mouth is dry and pass me another copy of “Humility” if you will.
I must have just awaken from a dream that there was a chance that the Lord was ‘blessing’ SGM with His discipline. Only to find out it is Brent who will receive that blessing and the rest of the disgruntled.
Wow – isn’t it amazing with all the professed change nothing really changes except the names of the innocent (er guilty). I have to say I don’t think many of us were be surprised by this (not to say we were not hopeful). Acknowledge, deflect and accuse – the SGM Leadership handbook. I commented a week ago, that these men really don’t think they are doing badly. Yea they make a mistake or two along the way, but hey nobody is perfect. I have been reluctant to be overly excited about all this – especially when all the praise was coming out on CJ’s behalf.
I must say I was very pleased to read that Brent is desiring to talk with those he has hurt. The empathy that he was receiving was uncomfortable, at least from the seat I occupy. Brent didn’t anything to me except me feel incredibly inferior when it came to administration, organizing and whatnot. :D so Kudos Brent! I do pray that it goes well for them and you!!!
For me it is time to be quiet before the Lord, stand back and watch the mighty hand of the Lord move on behalf of His church!!!
Also to those who have responded to me (Anon, Pia, NLR, and others come to mind) , I do apologize for not getting back to you. I have been very busy and the pace of the blogs and comments has been a bit overwhelming. I will try and get back through the blogs the next couple of days so I can respond. Thanks for your patience.
This might be insignificant but I find the Board’s use of the word “slander” to be telling. From a legal perspective (I know, here we go again), slander is defamation from the spoken word and libel is defamation resulting from the written word. So, SGM’s misplaced accusation should be for libel, not slander.
Why do I care? Because that tells me that these guys either did not seek legal counsel before releasing that statement or that they ignored counsel. To me, that’s intriguing.
@Mike Cole, I agree completely (and once you figure out who I am, you’ll laugh because we don’t often agree!). Josh and the folks at CLC need our prayers more than ever.
Res Ipsa (whose humor is always intentional :wink: )
Question, is the regular non-SGM church down the street incorporated?
Does anyone know the connection between Setting Captives Free and SGM? I use to be an online counselor/mentor for SCF about 10 years ago and find the relationship interesting to say the least…
Who wrote the document here: http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/support-pastor-mahaney/ ? Does anyone know?
I took a few quick notes (my comments follow the 2 asterisks**):
**This person comes in from a position of superiority, no humility, often addresses Brent by name and even “Brent, Brent”. I find that interesting because in my own cult-church experience, the pastor did the same thing to both my husband and me. Repeatedly calling someone by their name within a short period of time has an air of superiority to it.
“As one who has worked with thousands of people on this very issue, I agree entirely. At this point, Brent should accept the counsel of the wiser man here.” **Arrogance, lack of humility, and degrading response.
“Have you noticed how concerned you are, Brent, about everything that CJ does and says?“ **Isn’t that what he was trained to do? It sounds like he was doing his job SGM-style.
“Brent I hope at some point in your life God opens your eyes to the gospel, for if He does you will stop demanding perfection from others because you will learn the valuable truth that in Christ you are perfect:” **Then why all the need for pointing out each others’ sins in the sinfest they love to do for each other? And what a rude comment to conclude that Brent’s eyes aren’t open to the gospel. He has now taken on the job as judge? This is a toxic environment.
“Love keeps no record of wrongs“ **I’m sure the former SGM members would disagree about care group leaders and SGM leaders in general. This seems to be a common thread at SGM.
“You have sought to publicly defame CJ Mahaney, even before due process could run its course.“ **How much time is needed for “due process”?
So, I get the feeling that people think Josh has changed his doctrine to a post Cross/Grace focus due to this crisis. Is that correct?
Ah, but Ipsa –
Using Guy’s iPad, with its SGMese Translator App, we come up with the following definition of “slander”:
“Slander” is communicating through any means statements that reflect unfavorably upon SGM leaders and/or the SGM organization.”
Relating to this, “slander” would also encompass the idea that if an SGM pastor is able to offer up a different version of the information presented in the unfavorable statements – whereby the pastor’s version reflects less unfavorably upon the leader and/or the organization – then the more-unfavorable statements are “slanderous.”
In other words, anything that does not present SGM or SGM leaders in the best possible light constitutes “slander.”
:spin
Guy – Along with other questions others have asked you to ask Josh, would you mind asking Josh if he is actually reading the comments on his blog? There are some strong words against him and his family. I applaud him for allowing posts of dissension to remain.
Michelle –
The simple answer is that the church down the street is incorporated as a Church, while
CLC is incorporated as an ordinary business. Literally, Redland Baptist and Church of the Redemer.
Sidney – Your question depends on the by-laws, traditionally the board would have to have some type of majority agreement towards any change of direction/oversight. Being that SGM’s offices, recording studio, and pastors college are all housed in the CLC building, I would imagine there would be some SGM controll over the building.
However..
SGM and CLC have had to maintain some pretty clear lines of separation to protect the non-profit status of both CLC and SGM. SGM pays CLC rent, and holds a lease for the section of property they occupy. A few walls where doors are could solve this. This to say, SGM has protections against CLC as a tenant.
Amera, the group Setting Captives Free is against psychological counseling, isn’t it?
Considering the board has not denied any of the facts stated in the documents, and considering the stance of the board (total support for CJ despite his confessed sin), as a member of an SGM church, you should speak with your pastor about withholding any further funds from being sent to SGM until this matter is cleared up. If you are hesitant to do that – ask yourself why? Are you afraid of your pastors response? Are you afraid of being asked to leave the church? Should you be?
@Res Ipsa – Glad to see you are coming to the light and seeing I am right. ;-p
Jewel- I believe Mike Cleveland wrote that document but I could be wrong. I opened it but didn’t read any of it. If you go to the fb page they have for CJ Mike has been very vocal on his view of people come on and say anything that isn’t positive on CJ.
@Jewel “Who wrote the document here: http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/support-pastor-mahaney/ ? Does anyone know?”
A man named Mike Cleveland has been extremely outspoken on CJ’s facebook page in defense of any criticism of CJ. He seems to be the one based on his last comment:
Res Ipsa –
Not trying to Lawyer here, yet from in court experience with SGM and their attorneys,
and no I did not even consider representing myself, SGM’s unique vernacular was defended from the point of theological interpretation/definition, thus attempting to draw a Church v. State wall between their actions/statements and the legal definitions/interpretations, in one instance, against clear precedence.