Essentially Reformed…And Essentially Bummed – A Personal Note
July 20, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
I’ve been busy over the past couple of days and have not had much time to interact here. But I have still been thinking about everything.
One thought – it’s a good thing that I was very established in my own Christian beliefs before we made the random decision a few years ago to toss up a blog about our ambivalence over our experiences at a Sovereign Grace Ministries church. The things I’ve heard since then would have been faith-shaking if God hadn’t already rooted and grounded me in what I believe. And in WHOM I believe.
Another thought – for most of my life, I would say (as SGM’s promotional materials say) that I have been “essentially Reformed” in my doctrine. Guy and I did spend several years in a hyper-charismatic church that (especially toward the end of our time there) veered dangerously into “name-it-and-claim-it” theology, as well as the “Prosperity Gospel.” I did go through at least a few years of reading only books that were written by others with a “Charismatic” bent. I can remember spending lots of time in the Christian bookstore – but only near the shelves labeled “Charismatic Interests.” I didn’t want to read ANYTHING that didn’t have as its foundational assumption that we were “victorious overcomers in Jesus’ name.” I didn’t want to read anything that didn’t assume that God always answers the prayer of faith – in exactly the way that the person doing the praying wanted it answered. After all, if you’re going to be bold enough to take anointing oil to the hospital bed of a woman dying from cancer and believe that if you pray for her and anoint her with this oil, she might very well pop up out of bed, perfectly fine, you need a lot of mental fortification! :D
So for a few years, my “essentially Reformed” theological foundations were layered with “speak the Word” and “have what you say” and “we are glorious overcomers.” And “God wants only the best for His children.”
But I never really lost my grip on what I knew to be true in the Bible. In the back of my mind, I knew that God did not typically heal people in a dramatic fashion, even when we say all the right words…and even when we were told week after week that this stuff happens all the time when our pastor prays for people. (One day it occurred to me how funny/ironic it was that our hyper-Charismatic pastor had health insurance for himself and the rest of his staff, despite his own proclamations that it is always God’s will for us to “be in good health and prosper.” And that if we pray in faith – as he himself did – we would be healed. It occurred to me that if this pastor REALLY believed this, he wouldn’t be forking over so much money for health insurance.)
I also knew that the teachings about wealth (a sign of God’s favor, always good) and poverty (a sign that you weren’t giving enough money, always evil) weren’t right.
I discovered, after we left that church, that the way the message of salvation through Jesus was presented wasn’t very accurate. Awhile back I came across an old teaching tape that I’d purchased when we were new to that church, because I’d thought the message was just so good. And it was downright weird to listen to it again. I realized that throughout our entire time there, I’d filtered the sermons through my “already biblical” grid, where I’d assume that the pastor meant certain things just because he was alluding to terms that *I* understood in certain ways. But if you were coming to that church (as many people did) with virtually no background knowledge of Christianity, no grasp of the Bible in any sort of connected, systematic way, you would not really have an understanding of what the Christian life is supposed to be about. Or even Who Jesus is. (The Jesus at that church was more of a sugar daddy…and His Godhood was de-emphasized while His humanity was over-emphasized, where people were told that if we had “the anointing,” we would be just like Jesus in terms of miracles, signs, and wonders. And power. All the power. We could basically become “little Christs.”)
But even in the midst of that dysfunction, with my reading diet of nothing but “Charismatic Interest” books and the faulty preaching, I never really veered far from the faith in which God had planted me as a child. I knew the Bible well and just sort of filtered all that junk through my biblical grid.
When we grew disillusioned with that church and sort of woke up (when a visiting minister gave an altar call for all those who wish to prosper…and when Guy later met with the pastor to tell him how disturbed we were by that…and when the pastor just blew it off, unconcerned, we knew we had to move on), I found great solace in websites that emphasized Reformed doctrines. I loved Tim Challies and the guys at Pyromaniacs and read them daily. I loved it when they would take apart some false teaching and show how it did not stack up to the Bible. I loved how they emphasized all the things that “we can know for sure.”
(Matter of fact, Challies’ glowing write-ups of all things SGM, as well as the way that the Pyro guys seemed to speak so highly of CJ Mahaney, were part of why we started attending our SGM church and why we stayed for as long as we did, despite all the little things that seemed “off.” Every time something odd would happen that struck us as wrong, we’d shrug it off and tell ourselves it must just be us – surely the big-name bloggers couldn’t be wrong!)
I have to admit that until very recently, I still would get a kick out of when these guys would deconstruct Rob Bell or some such. I would think to myself, “We need more of this in the church today! It is so vital for people to defend the TRUTH.
But (and yes, I’m finally getting to my point…I do have one) one thing I have realized over the past couple of weeks is that these “Reformed” types seem to turn a blind eye when it comes to policing any of their own. It’s like, if a group espouses a certain checklist of stuff, and if they like to quote Spurgeon, it becomes some sort of Jedi mind trick, where the group then gets a free pass for everything else.
I actually wrote this paragraph to someone with connections to one of the Reformed Big Dogs:
Something that everyone who claims to care about “biblical theology” ought to find extremely disturbing is just how badly people’s understanding of actual Reformed theology has been abused within SGM, to the point where I regularly deal with many who have walked away from their faith altogether. That this continues unabated and appears to be endorsed by so many Reformed celebrities – well, it’s one of those wrongs that I will never believe is supposed to be ignored in this life. If Rob Bell is guilty of distorting truth and leading people to hell, then so is SGM. Bell’s road to perdition is paved with what is preached. SGM’s road has been paved with twisted practices that render what is preached meaningless for far too many.
After a lifetime of considering myself “essentially Reformed,” and after so many years of respecting the guys who dare to “stand for something” and confront those who deviate from the clear teachings of scripture, I have found myself blown away by the way these same men have responded to concerns about CJ and SGM.
There are multitudes of stories online from people who have all experienced the exact same pattern of authoritarian abuse. But – according to these great Reformed Big Dog defenders – all those people are “just bitter” and “need to forgive.” The problem is with THEM and their anonymity or something. The problem simply can’t be with the jacked-up church system that CJ Mahaney created and sustained. Because CJ likes to quote Spurgeon! And CJ has been vetted as holding to the right checklist of beliefs!
And now there are pages and pages of internal documents online that (to me, anyway) prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that SGM has a completely flawed system of accountability for its leaders…a system that totally lends itself to this sort of authoritarian abuse…and that the men at the top of the organization will stop at nothing to protect and promote their “movement” – even to the point of tolerating total hypocrisy from their celebrity guru founder.
But again, the problem simply CAN’T be with the jacked-up church system that CJ Mahaney created and sustained. The problem must be with Brent Detwiler! And those pesky “attack blogs.” CJ himself can’t be a big part of the problem…because CJ likes to quote Spurgeon! And CJ has been vetted as holding to the right checklist of beliefs!
I’m starting to think that SGM’s move to the Reformed camp was brilliant in that SGM gained so many biblically and intellectually credible allies who utterly refuse to look beyond the checklist and the love of Spurgeon. Say the right words, and you can systematically abuse and disenfranchise anyone you deem expendible. And a chorus of internet “contenders for the faith” will back you up – simply because you say the right stuff and share the stage with other guys who say the right stuff.
Quote Spurgeon and get a free pass!
(On the other hand, did anyone else who actually read through Brent Detwiler’s documents find it rather sad and pathetic to see the letters from all the “Charismatic celebrities” whom Larry Tomczak sought out to vouch for him in his conflict with CJ? I actually sort of chuckled ruefully when I thought about how today’s Reformed types would sneer at the backing of the likes of Rick Joyner and Mike Bickle.)
If SGM Survivors were instead Rob Bell Survivors or even Rick Warren Purpose-Driven Survivors, these same internet contenders would be in a foaming lather to dissect Brent’s documents and find all the ways that CJ is messed up. But since CJ talks their talk, they are quick to leap to his defense…quick to do everything to discredit and discount Brent Detwiler…quick to find fault with anything and everything said on sites like SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge.
No wonder CJ wanted so badly to “go Reformed,” to the point where he and his cronies threatened to blackmail his non-Reformed cofounder into remaining silent about the doctrinal shift. It was the perfect move to ensure that the organization’s abuses would never be taken seriously by the outside Christian world. People who share about what happened to them? Bitter! Need to forgive! Don’t have a biblical understanding of submission to leaders! Don’t have a biblical understanding of the role of church discipline! Don’t have a biblical understanding of wifely submission! Don’t have a biblical understanding of the doctrines of sin!
Because, the guys accused of these abuses can’t be wrong. They say the right stuff. They espouse the right doctrines. So the victims’ doctrines must be wrong.
And doctrine is all that matters to these folks. If a practice twists the doctrine and renders it meaningless, well – no problem. They don’t care about that.
I almost think that these Reformed Big Dogs are doing exactly what I did while I was in the midst of my “hyper-Charismatic” mindset – they are simply filtering everything through the grid of what they know of Reformed theology and giving CJ and SGM the benefit of the doubt.
Like I said, it’s a good thing that I know what I believe and in Whom I believe, or I would be feeling very much like losing heart right about now. The men I’d so admired as “contenders for biblical truth” aren’t really that worried about the “truth” part – just their own ideas about what’s biblical.
I think I’m still “essentially Reformed.” But I no longer have any idea who speaks for what that even means.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Someone on the last thread asked about Piper’s sermon on missions. I wasn’t there but I remember hearing back then that some of what Piper had said was considered taboo… I found this later and understood why. Great challenge.
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/conference-messages/hallowed-be-thy-name
Sigh…I wish that these “essentially Reformed” “big dogs” wouldn’t represent to so many of the world what being a Reformed Christian means. There are worlds of differences within every branch of Christian theological traditions, and being Reformed is no exception. Historically what it meant to be Reformed was that one held to the Three Forms of Unity or the Westminster Confession (which means Mahaney, Piper, Spurgeon, and many others would historically have been known as “Particular Baptists” not Reformed). Between the so-called Reformed confessions there are broad areas of agreement and minor areas of disagreement. Throughout history there have been changing stances, disagreeing Reformed theologians, stories that make one shudder, and events and people wonderfully used by God who all might fall under the “Reformed” moniker.
For every one of the fairly small handful of “essentially Reformed” celebrity pastors and bloggers out there whose discernment might be clouded by book endorsements there are many small Reformed churches full of people who are seeking to live out the faith and love their brothers and sisters in Christ.
Thanks, Kris, you’ve very eloquently expressed what I, crudely, by comparison, have said several times: Calvinism, I don’t think these guys know what Protestantism is.
While I’m not staunchly Calvinist, I’m very proud of my reformed roots which likely date back several hundred years if you could follow my mom’s German family tree that far. Calvin and Luther had their issues, but the essence of the reformation to me, is epitomized by these three beliefs:
1) Challenging your clergy-people to be accountable to God is godly;
2) Translating the Bible into English so you can see what it says for yourself is godly;
3) Reading controversial documents that your clergy may not like, such as Luther’s “poisonous” (he never would have passed muster with SGM’s Mat. 18-20 approach to letting someone know what you really think of them) letters to Pope Leo and Henry the 8th, is godly.
I believe that the essence of these beliefs brought Western Civilization out of the dark ages and led to belief systems enabling this blog to exist.
Sometimes we take for granted our free speech rights when we consider that saying, “Martin Luther is not a heretic” in Spain, in 1495, would have bought us a ticket to a fiery death.
Bless Aron Osborne, I believe his apologies for being so hard on bloggers are genuine. However, telling people it’s okay to read a controversial text and make up their own minds about it vs. telling them to stay away from “poison,” is the difference being either a pope from antiquity/a modern day cult leader and being someone truly influenced by the Protestant reformation.
In my humble opinion.
About 6 or 7 years ago, long before I had ever heard of SGM or neo-Calvinism or anyone associated with them, I was confirmed in a thought I had been having for a few years in a sermon by a then-retired minister who said he had seen more damage done to the faith of humble believers over the years by “defensive, combative, and self-willed” pastors and elders than by anything else. Kind of crazy in the social climate of our day, isn’t it? But it rang true then and still does.
I would love to meet other people and churches like us/ours someday, which is why I am posting this.
Kris, I am sorry for your struggles and pain, and can only say that some other people also want very much to have essentially Reformed doctrine and the Holy Spirit moving, without being in SGM. If anybody is in the Philly area I thought I would introduce myself and my church.
My name is Lyn H.e.t.t.l.e.r ( avoiding search engines with the dots). This is my real name.
I live in Bordentown, NJ, with my husband Mark and some kids. We attend a Reformed and Charismatic church in Moorestown, NJ: Maranatha Christian Fellowship, a little north of Cherry Hill, across the river from Center City Philly. It is the only church we’ve personally ever known that is trying to be Reformed and Charismatic but is not in SGM. Our pastor George Bowen went to Westminster Theological Seminary and grew up in the Charismatic movement, as did my husband Mark.
We have occasionally all talked about how nice it might be to meet other like minded churches and people and pastors. We are doctrinally close to Piper and Grudem, with a heavy dose of Martyn Lloyd-Jones’ position on repeated outpourings of the holy spirit and prayer for revival. The elders have used Grudem’s ST for a theology class, Frame on apologetics, and Ferguson’s “The Christian Life” for basic discipleship.
Mark and I met when he was a pastor in the shepherding movement and married in ’79, but we eventually left and he went into secular work. We attended Covenant Fellowship in Broomall in the 1990s and had a mostly positive experience. Mark was ministry team leader for the book table. By the time the church was moving to Glen Mills 50 minutes away we had decided it was best to leave, as we became more aware of the growing CJ-top down-shepherding movement doctrines which we could not agree with. However, we will always be thankful for a great small group; Dave Harvey featured us in his chapter in “Why Small Groups” under the alias Stu and Lisa, and we left on good terms.
We attended one of the New Life churches in the PCA, and for me it was a great deliverance from my subtle superiority over non charismatics. Perhaps because the church was rooted and bathed in prayer, the power of God was moving to save the lost, heal, and speak to His people. I said to many people later that there was no difference between Dan Welch coming to the prophecy mic and saying “oh my children, the Lord would say xxxxxxxxx” ( emphasizing some great truth of scripture), and in betweeen songs at cessationist New Life a member of the congregation pouring out their heart in prayer and praise to God “Oh God thank you that xxxxxxxxx”. It was the same message both times, the same Holy Spirit, the same word to the people, the same passion. One posed as prophecy and one as a prayer, but God spoke just the same. So while I will always have some doctrinal differences with cessationists, I look back on New Life as one of the best churches I’ve ever known.
We moved to NJ in ’01, after Mark took a job in Cherry Hill in ’99 with the strong leading of the Lord and commuted a long way for two years. It felt hard and lonely to leave everything we had known, but God knew the future and Mark’s former Conshohocken company crashed with the Nasdaq in 2000; we are grateful he has a job.
We are happy to be in Maranatha now; George is an excellent preacher with sermons rich in scripture and a focus on the greatness of our good God and a surrendered life walking with Him. People are from varied backgrounds and ethnicities, and we are busy with prayer and misisons and various outreaches, and I don’t think I have ever-literally never- heard anybody talk about submitting to church leaders. There is so much love and respect flowing and people “have a life” and are busy with ministry and family.
I’ve had two good debates about non essential doctrinal subjects with my pastor and an elder and they dive right in; nobody accuses people of rebellion for asking questions (and I’m not always perfectly gentle and respectful in tone.) In Reformed churches you can argue and discuss doctrine and that’s a good thing, not a problem.
Our church kids are so not perfect. If your kids are not perfect you’d fit right in with us. We have over 2 dozen adopted kids- some adopted at older ages like 7,8,10 from foreign orphanages. They have “issues”, or to be more biblical, evidence of indwelling sin! Lots of it! But we love them and they are inviting unsaved friends and neighbors to youth group. My girl comes home sometimes and talks about kids that asked for prayer, and know they need God, and praying for new kids who visited. 13 years olds in immorality, a teen who thinks they might be gay, several former and current “cutters” with scars, broken home kids in anger and depression and emotional agony, a shoplifter. Kids who date! But they hear the good news every week and its real Christianity, all the battle and the headaches and joys and griefs and victories and frustrations. It’s OK at my church to be a mess- you’ll get prayed for. I know, I’ve been on the recieving end more than once myself. That is what we are there for- to reach out to a messed up world and tell them about the Lord.
So anyway, if anybody out there is both Reformed and Charismatic but not in SGM, it would be nice to connect somehow. My email is my name above-one word w/o the dots- at hotmail dot com. My church phone number is 856-234-3791. It would be nice for our pastor George and his wife Kitty Bowen to meet other Reformed and Charismatic pastor couples who are not into shepherding doctrines. She has mentioned to me a couple times how much they would love to meet similar pastors/churches/people; they have not met very many.
May God work everything happening for His great glory and heal the broken hearted!
Thanks for reading, and may the Lord bless you.
Kris said, “Like I said, it’s a good thing that I know what I believe and in Whom I believe, or I would be feeling very much like losing heart right about now.”
There are likely some reading these blogs who, as they wake up to what’s happening, feel betrayed and disillusioned. Some will be tempted to blame God or to contemplate that He does not even exist. This is the very reason why organizations parading as churches and falsely pretending to represent God are so dangerous. They serve as part of Satan’s deception.
Many here have heard Carter Conlon’s sermon “Run” where he warns the church to run from those who put praise of men ahead of God. This morning I decided to look Conlon up and see what his latest sermon is about. I dedicate this to all those who are feeling weary and tired in the midst of all this upheaval. If you’re considering giving up on your faith, please give this a listen first. Then decide.
It is titled “I Don’t Know How To Go On” dated July 17th.
http://www.tscnyc.org/media_center.php?pg=sermons#top
Subj: Out of the fry pan & into the fire
As many are recovering from the negative effects of the prideful & controlling nature of SGM, there is a caution to consider. A central mindset of SGM is “We posses the one true theology and if you disagree with us, you are wrong and probably sinning.”
A caution against leaving one form of tyranny and cleaving to another: For those who affirm Calvinism, be cautious in how that drives your attitude. Be careful to not develop a prideful attitude of elitism. Some dismiss any dissenting views claiming that they “know definitively” on this issue.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
1Co 13:13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
The interesting thing in that verse is it doesn’t specify what we are viewing in the mirror dimly – just the fact that we are. It is also interesting that Paul’s admonition highlights the supremacy of love in areas of dispute.
Let’s not jump out of the fry pan and into the fire.
Regarding the blogging = a violation of Mat. 18-20’s approach to criticizing a believer
To those at SGM maintaining that blogging about things pastors don’t like to hear is ungodly: I see nothing in scripture or the history of the reformation that supports such a belief. However, if you do, for consistency’s sake, please issue the following the statement:
1) Paul sinned when he wrote letters to certain communities, that may have been perceived as godly correction, when he could have trekked out to see them in person instead.
2) Martin Luther sinned when he wrote strongly-worded letters to the Pope, Henry the 8th, and many others whom he could have tried to meet with in person to discuss Biblical correction issues.
3) Dr. Albert Mohler is sinning whenever he criticizes the Episcopal church on his blog when he could, instead, bang on the door of Katherine Jefferts Schiori, the presiding bishop of the Episcopal church in America, whenever she interprets the Bible differently than he interprets the Bible.
I look forward to reading this statement on the SGM blog shortly.
We’ve talked about SGM being nothing but a business and I think that’s correct. However, I think we’ve missed the mark in believing that we’ve been dealing / talking about mature adults displaying mature adult behavior.
What I’m perceiving is more childish behavior than anything else. It’s like a bunch of little boys that never grew up. They have their own little club (the apostles and elders club in the treehouse) including the sign that say, “Girls Keep Out!” Sinfully suspicious of me, I know!
They do get their way so we see:
Bullying – by intimidation
Selfishness – not willing to share (leadership, ownership)
Strong willed children – exceptionally difficult task to help them behave
Immature / Closed minded– Only their way – not open to reason
Adolescent – “Knows it all”
Manipulation – “If you don’t do what I want, I’ll tell on you!” (Or “I’ll tell on your children!)
SGM: “Walk to the bathroom!”
If it weren’t so obvious it would be funny.
Some very good thoughts on this thread. Kris, thank you for sharing your thoughts and getting it started. I think you are right about the Big Dogs and it is a shame.
I think that out in the big broad real-world church of Jesus Christ there are many brothers and sisters, and yes, even pastors, imperfectly laboring away for the Kingdom, but with good hearts and in a spirit of humble service. That includes folks in all the schools and subsets of orthodox Protestant theology: Reformed, Arminian and in-between. The celebrities are such a small part of all that. They do get attention, but generally I think they get attention for the right things they have said and done. Al Mohler, the man I am most disappointed in through all this current mess, turned a seminary around from liberalism to orthodox Christianity. It was an amazing achievement, and he deserves credit for that. He is also an articulate commentator on culture and theology. Believers (pastors, too) feel strengthened by hearing articulate men who help them by articulating truths they believe but struggle to explain. I think this is natural, though the danger of hero-worship is very real. I came to the Lord under a “celebrity” pastor’s ministry, and early on his word was THE word to me. But he did not claim special insight, and encouraged personal study, so in a few years I grew up and came to be quite comfortable disagreeing with him on this or that point of doctrine.
As an essentially Reformed person myself, I am still reeling somewhat from all these revelations about SGM, though I have never been a big fan…just one who appreciated what appeared to be a biblical emphasis coupled with a humble spirit, even though I disagreed about some specifics. Grudem is about as sweet an individual as you’ll ever meet, and my impression (a flawed one) was that basically SGM was Grudem put into practice. I think that’s how many on the outside have viewed SGM. The real practice at SGM just seems so different from the teaching SGM gave to the broader church through books, CD’s, Internet, etc. To me it seemed they had so much right (though I acknowledge I am now sincerely searching for possible weaknesses in the teaching to make sure I have not been missing something). Some of you here have helped me with that.
All this is to say that I don’t think Reformed theology is the culprit at SGM, but rather certain men, starting with Mr. Mahaney, and his method. I do agree, however, that the rather small world of celebrities do look out for each other, and are quick to defend those on “their side” of theological matters. Their true knowledge of each other’s ministries is probably very superficial. Calvinists in these times still feel like a minority and I think they are quick to welcome anyone close to their views, and stick up for them. Anti-Calvinists are already rejoicing over what has happened at SGM, and the celebrity Calvinists feel the pinch. The temptation, and it is a temptation, is to cut some slack to those who need it least. They need to trust a sovereign God, that if the theology is right, it will stand on its own, weather all storms, and doesn’t need feeble representatives, no matter how talented.
I find that a lot of the Reformed doctrines strike me as true but I despise how they are practiced in real life. This is true for SGM (I attended an SGM church for about 5 years) but others as well I think.
Things like complementarianism — sounds great, but it seems really easy to devalue women, keep them uneducated or at home, or whatever. Discipleship — sounds great, but control freaks. Courtship — sounds great, but keeps men and women from interacting with each other in any kind of sane way. et cetera, et cetera.
I sometimes wonder if these things are true but as fallen people we are just too screwed up to do them right even as Christians, and so we ought to just try living the opposite way because we’re less likely to screw things up…
Thank you Kris for your comments.
I attended an OP church for several years before my up-county and going to CLC. I remember the members telling me not to go, but they never been to CLC. In attending CLC and becoming a member, several “pink” flags came up. To be a member you have to join a caregroup. This is not optional. I also requested to be part of a mixed caregroup (singles, married) because I wanted diversity in meeting others. That request was not granted. My issues with CLC were mainly the caregroup lack of care, lack of actual bible study, and being discipled a la Shepherding movement rather than following Matthew 5-7. I left after 18 months and don’t regret my experience because I was forced to be a Berean. I even remember saying to the caregroup that there was an unhealthy focus on the cross because there’s more to Christ when looking at doctrine. They looked at me like I cursed.
I think the Big Reformed Dogs have no clue what was going on in SGM, and they are not going to speculate. They are human and flawed. They pick and choose what issues to pursue for their benefit. Over the past year or so I’ve stopped reading the Pyro blog and others because of the arrogance and sarcasm that is often linked with Reformed Theology. I get upset when people they SGM is Reformed, because they aren’t. Please don’t judge reformed theology based on SGM, it’s inaccurate.
This SGM saga is a mess.
Friends,
Do not forget that both the Protestants and the Catholics were persecuting the Ana Baptists… who were not monolithic, btw. There were some nutty ana baptists just like the nutty Luther who wrote horrible things about the Jews.
The Catholics burned them and the Protestants usually drowned them for their “third” baptism. Both sides bear the responsiblity. Read Martyrs Mirror sometime because the Reformers were great at rewriting their own history. (the victors always write their own history and that is why you have to read different sources to piece it all together.
For example, Calvin? He had great influence in Geneva during his second residence there. His petit council even regulated the amount of courses Genevans could have at each meal.But my big argument with Calvinists is why they think he was so brilliant since he believed the Bible taught church/state governance, infant baptism and transubstantiation)
The Ana Baptists were against state church government, infant baptism and most of the sacral system kept by the Reformers.
(“Reformed” meant reforming the Catholic, big C, church, btw, and therein lies the big problem that most miss. Remember, protestant means “protest”. As in protesting against the Pope. In other words, there is a lot they LIKED about the Catholic church and kept!)
Then differing groups of Ana Baptists eventually make their way to America, usually through the Netherlands, and are….guess what!….legalistic! You see them in the Hutterites, Mennonites, etc.
A GREAT book, sponsored by the Calvin Foundation, is “The Step Children of the Reformation” by Leonard Verduin in 1951.
There is a lot we did not know until after WW2 because many of the archives were locked up in church vaults and in royal archives in Europe until the occupation when it was finally opened up to American and British researchers. Even letters to Calvin’s best friend became public for the first time in the late 1940’s.
Church history is a bloody evil mess. And when people appeal to it, it makes me cringe. And it goes back to Augustine’s cruely to the Donatists.
Appealing to the doctrines of man interpretations of the Book we all own never gets us very far in our walk with our Savior. It is good to read for historical purposes but for the purpose of becoming closer to Christ? Please, no.
Jesus Christ never fails.
Robin,
I didn’t get a chance to welcome you on the other thread and wanted to do so. :welcome
One of my children was involved with a campus ministry that sounds like the one you described. It was called “Campus Outreach” and was affiliated with Presbyterian Churches. They sound identical – even the Christmas conferences and “Beach Projects.” (Seems like there was also a big Africa mission trip, as well.)
You’re correct…it’s a culture just like SGM’s. It damaged and confused a lot of kids, and completely turned some from the faith. They were so self-righteous and condemining that they turned off any kids that were genuinely seeking. It took YEARS for some of the kids to recover from it, and a few are still screwed up, and some, regretfully, got so sucked in and brainwashed that they are now “leaders” on various campuses themselves – clones of the leaders they worshipped.
I’m so thankful you found your way out and are recovering.
This quote from CS Lewis has been tapping my shoulder today.
“It is a serious thing,” says Lewis, “to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ‘ordinary’ people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilisations — these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whome we joke with, work with, marry, snub and exploit — immortal horrors or everlasting splendours. This does not mean that we are to be perpetually solemn. We must play. But our merriment must be of that kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously — no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption. And our charity must be a real and costly love, with deep feeling for the sins in spite of which we love the sinner — no mere tolerance or indulgence which parodies love as flippancy parodies merriment.”
From The Weight of Glory
1. Piper, Mahaney and his company, MacArthur, Mohler, Lawson, Phil Johnson (Pyromaniacs), James White, Mark Driscoll and others “on the circuit” are not Reformed. Confessionally Reformed people dislike these predestinarian (and rather recently so) Baptists claiming that. That gets little press. They are, like Spurgeon, particular Baptists. Spurgeon claimed the title “Calvinist” but not “Reformed,” insofar as I know. The Confessionally Reformed do not think Spurgeon is Reformed. I think Presbyterian #2 above alluded to that. You will note that these men never have Confessional Presbyterians–very much–on their platform, except Ligon Duncan, who many have called a Baptyerian, not a good Reformed Churchman. Occasionally, one has seen RC Sproul Sr. on the platform, but he’s a Baptyerian in practice and there are ecclesiology problems there too. So, this is a housekeeping term–Reformed–that needs clarity.
2. Neither are any of them–above–Confessionally Lutheran or Confessional Anglican, these two have their own distinctives.
3. As to elitism or claims to “being better,” this exists in all groups, otherwise they wouldn’t be in “that group” over “this group” (if they joined deliberatively and thoughtfully). If you want real elitism, see Rome. Obviously, a Confessional Presbyterian believes he has the “best grip” on Biblical truth. B.B. Warfield said: “Reformed Theology is the best expression of the Christian faith.” The “lines” are drawn in the sand by the question. One can take it or leave it, join it or not join it, agree with it or disagree with, vote for it or deny it, impugn it or applaud it. One doesn’t have to join, after all. That’s why it’s good to have Confessional and written documents. Given the anti-intellectualism of much in our time, this is precisely why this scribe will not go to most churches.
4. There’s another aspect here as well. Professor John Frame has often said that Presbyterians have historically drawn upper-middle to higher incomes because Presbyterianism has stressed literacy, education, and a developed theology. There was, after all, the Princeton School of Theology, known for 100+ years of deliberative scholarship. I think there is some truth here.
I’ve said to my Federal Judge friend several times that I do not believe that serious Jurists, Judges, and lawyers will be drawn or stay long in charismatic or emotional contexts–a generalization, assuredly, but they will be drawn to contexts that think, deliberate, and ponder. He smiles, but says little.
5. As a Calvinistic Anglican, I strongly think my worship-tradition is one of the finest. The Book of Common Prayer (1662) and the parish and Cathedral tradition, e.g. Cambridge, Oxford, Westminster, Canterbury, are most excellent. Otherwise, I might be elsewhere. I will never be found in hand-waving, enthusiastic, loud, emotional, guitar-pluckin’ contexts. I can’t. I won’t. I have reasons but will not defend that now. This much, the vast majority of Americans have rejected and ridiculed my form of worship as dead, constricted, tight, written, conscripted, non-spontaneous, destructive of the work of the Holy Spirit, and more. Have heard that all my life from the Enthusiast and Revivalist traditions. I assure you that the vast number of churches, as well as the Revivalists in paragraph #1, like John Piper, Al Moher, and others, HAVE DECIDED against Prayer Book worship.
6. As to Kris’s comment, my sense of the complaint is that the “Big Reformed Guys” (who aren’
t Reformed) appear to give a pass to C.J. Mahaney and company. Ligon Duncan and R.C. Sproul, assuredly, do not speak for the Reformed community. Ligon should stick to his Presbyterian world and stop legitimating the Revivalist Baptist world–that’s my view. But worse, he should have been quite quiet re: Mr. Mahaney. That is, in good Presbyterian fashion, he should have insisted on evidence, facts, deliberation, caution and–given his involvement with Mahaney–investigation. Ligon stepped in it with his hasty and premature statement. If this is the sense of Kris’s comment, I concur.
7. But, given some experience with issues at some high levels in the military, here’s how corruption or a bad event is covered-up. They spin it with smiles. Behind closed doors, they make changes and, when necessary, are brutal. After a while, it wears off. They return to business with the few changes.
8. We must be cautious. There is room to say “better than.” I am an ex-Marine and black belt. I “am better” in self-defense than most. I have graduate degrees; “I am better” at writing English papers than the 19-year olds at our local community college. Yet, St. Paul’s argument in 2 Cor 11 is rich. The “braggart upstarts” and “enthusiasts” (probably intellectual gnostics” were engaging in the “I am better” argument. St. Paul put up a point-by-point rebuttal of his superiority and then concluded, I am nothing. In short, I, St. Paul am a zero apart from Christ. The implied conclusion was that these upstart braggarts were, by comparison “triple zeroes.”
9. In all things, beware of pride. I’ve suggested earler that the absence of weekly confession and the declaration of the remission of sin from divine services has dangers. The regular practice keeps all in place. Confessional Lutherans and Confessional Anglicans have that. Some, but not very many, Confessionally Reformed have it…but very few. The Baptists, Baptacostals, Charismatics and Pentecostals have not formalized that. I believe that characteristic–of pride–is discernible in the “Non Reformed Big Dawgs,” or, the Particular Baptists. John Piper took 8 months off due to self-discernment of “several species” of pride in himself.
10. As an aside to the above, am hoping we’ll see more discussion about specifics from Mr. Detwiler’s documents. Without eclipsing the larger picture (abuse, government, etc), the issue of “black mail” has take a deepened meaning. Did it happen? If it did, it was a crime, punishable by law.
” Al Mohler, the man I am most disappointed in through all this current mess, turned a seminary around from liberalism to orthodox Christianity.”
You may want to read some differing history on this myth, too. the instances of heresy taught at SBTS were very few professors who could have been fired for not agreeing with what was clear in the current BFM. Yet, t a huge witch hunt took place for those who did not fall in line with secondary, non salvic doctrine. And the witch hunt then became about anyone daring to question Mohler or disagree with him and his cronies.
Mohler is one of the best political strategists out there. He became prez at 33 and began a focus of a elevating non salvic doctrines to salvic levels. And there we are today.
The biggest heresy to come out of the Reformed movement is ESS and SBTS is on the forefront of it.
We must stop putting so much faith in the celebrities. And redirect it to Jesus Christ. He deserves it.
My church experience was similar to yours Kris (sort of). I got saved at 13 in a Vineyard church. I think because of that I was quite the diehard Vineyard person for a long time. We all thought they had it all right. Worship. Preaching. Whatever it was, the Vineyard movement had it right. Years later I would realize they didn’t have it all right. They had quite a bit wrong (at least my local Vineyard church did). It took a major crisis at that church for me to see that. Still, I stuck around and tried to help the rebuilding after the crisis, but eventually left in a rage, hating the church and Christians in general.
A year after I left that Vineyard I started going to an SGM church (I barely went to church during that year between churches). God used the teaching at that SGM church to totally transform my view of God and His Church (and His people). I knew the Gospel, but I didn’t know it deeply in a way that was life changing. I saw who God was more clearly and was blown away at what Christ had done for me. I literally felt like a new convert to Christ.
But I think because of my Vineyard experience I wasn’t going to be become a “no questions asked”, blind follower of all things SGM. Not that I saw anything wrong with the teaching. I learned a lot and God used it greatly. But I just didn’t see a Biblical basis for some of the practices (which I might add were ONLY pushed by various members in the church, not the leaders). I have learned in my years at that church that while I can say I believe I am saved by faith and not by works, I can try really hard to please God by my works. And I think that’s a problem in any church (not just SGM). We can try and do the right stuff to feel like we’re being good Christians. Court instead of date. Go 7 for 7 each week with our quiet times. Whatever it might be.
I love my church. I loved Reformed doctrine. But I love and trust Christ more. I have to. If I was as diehard about SGM as I was about the Vineyard, I’d be in a world of hurt right now and probably very confused. I am sad for those people who might be feeling shell shocked by all the SGM stuff happening now. I know that God is doing a good thing right now, just as he did good things at my old church. But it was painful. God disciplines those He loves, and sometimes it sucks to walk through it.
So having 15 years in a pretty dysfunctional church (although it was trying to come out of it when I left), left a lasting impression on me. And God used the SGM church I ended up at (and still attend) to help me see that I needed to trust Christ more than a church or a church leader. I never felt one bit of a pull to “assimilate” into the fold or to check my brain at the door on Sunday mornings (although a few isolated people might have preferred I do that). I met with pastors numerous times with concerns and they were listened to and heeded (and on quite a number of occasions changes were made). Maybe my experience is different, but that’s what I know at my SGM church.
I don’t think I had a bigger point to make, but there ya go. :)
Kris,
I REALLY appreciate your post, and can relate to your disappointment. I’ve been disappointed for a while now, too.
Maybe those in the “reformed camps” respond the way they do because they really do feel they’re in the minority. They’re a pretty defensive bunch of folks.
I keep thinking about what Rose said…”I was confirmed in a thought I had been having for a few years in a sermon by a then-retired minister who said he had seen more damage done to the faith of humble believers over the years by “defensive, combative, and self-willed” pastors and elders than by anything else.”
It’s sad.
Do you mind me asking what type of church do you and Guy attend now? If you’d rather not answer, I understand.
Lauren – Excellent link! Thanks you very much!
.
“I Don’t Know How To Go On” dated July 17th.
http://www.tscnyc.org/media_center.php?pg=sermons#top
Matt,
I am certainly open to further reading on Southern Baptist Seminary (could you point me to some sources?), but I knew people attending at the time, and they were shocked at the amount of classroom instruction aimed at underminining the authority of Scripture. I don’t know where you stand on such things, but to me it’s important.
Christ does deserve our faith, not men, but I’m very thankful that Christ raised up a Wycliffe, a Luther, A Whitefield, a Spurgeon, etc. for the good of the church. And, yes, despite their flaws, I admire them.
Matt–
Thank you! I have some questions for you offline. Can I get your email from Kris?
Also, I second what you say emphatically. As I have said before, I am just Christian. Before, I didn’t know about Calvin’s past, nor Luthers, nor anyone else’s. Thing is, I thought Paul clearly admoished us that to be mature in Christ and not divisive or praising our leaders, that we are not to say I am of Paul, or Apollos, I.e. Of Spurgeon, of Luther, of Calvin. Although Paul or Apollos may have planted seeds or watered, it is God who makes things grow. Clearly, it’s why we call ourselves Christians. We are of Christ, who was God in flesh. Spurgeon may have planted, and Luther or Calvin may have watered, but it is still God who shall make us grow because we are GODS workmanship, his field. Not Luthers, Calvin’s, Spurgeons, Paul or Apollos. These men did great things, but again I say that CHRIST SIMPLY DID MORE! (and yes I am yelling that for all to hear).
At the end of the day, people might not kow what I mean to say that I am Reformed. People might not know what it is to say that I am Lutheran, Calvanist. That all takes a lot fo explaining. But simply and most importantly, saying I am a Christian takes the most based explanation and to an unbeliever or another struggling Christian, is the best explanation, understanding and reminder they need. It will tell them far more about my faith than telling them I am Reformed.
I would and could never label myself a follower of a man who was an anti-Semite or condemned others in the way these men have. I neither could support or hear the ministry of old southern Baptists who supported slavery. I contend that they could not have truly known God with that type of hatred in their hearts for other humans that God created. As an African-American, I personally find it offensive to label myself with ANYONE who would preach AND practice such abhorrent behaviors. They may have had some good to offer-but their label is not worthy enough to be a banner on my heart or my forehead. Even if it were Martin Luther King!
It will forever be safe and without Blame to simply bear the name of Christ. Only He was spotless, and perfect. All that these pastors peach and teach come from Him, His revelation of God in the flesh to all mankind. Why cant we just focus on that and simply say we are Christians. So what if the world hates Christians, so what if there are different sects of Christians. Is it not simply because of our pride and egos that we want to hold and broadcast these labels–because we want people to know we are getting it right? Because we want people to know we are the “real” Christians? Because we want people to know that we love doctrine and honor God? Can we grow up a little and focus our attention on the one person whose thoughts about us matter??! Isn’t that what it all boils down to anyways–what God thinks of me? What God knows about my heart, my beliefs, how I honor or appreciate His word?
Come on! Can we please just grow up already. But I bet you, people simply wint see this. They will continue in their pride and folly to make the banner of their faith some man who shares the throne with God rather than realizing that God will share his throne with no one.
Tim Keller makes a great point in counterfeit gods–and that is we make idols out of our doctrines, our beliefs, our teachers, etc… We simply need to believe in and praise Christ alone. My life would be rich had I never known about Calvin, Spurgeon, Luther, Edwards or anybody. My understanding and theology would be well enough without them. My walk with the Lord sufficient, deep and real without them. I appreciate the works they have contributed to the faith. But others are doing that level of contribution in many ways all the time. But CHRIST, again I say, CHRIST simply did more! None of these dudes will hang on a cross for you and then raise himself in three days. And if you were a Jew, Luther may have hung you on one himself.
I pray that our focus would return to and be on Christ alone.
To the individual who posted a defensive comment about Tim Challies, under the handle of a Bible reference, you must submit a legitimate email address (i.e. one that doesn’t contain this website’s name and/or the word “spam” in it) or your comment won’t get approved.
Also, it’d help if you actually seemed to have read what I wrote. I said nothing disparaging about Mr. Challies whatsoever. If anything, I wrote about how much I had admired him.
The fact is, Tim Challies has INDEED appeared to endorse SGM and CJ Mahaney in the past. The fact that he has not joined Mohler and Duncan in publicly standing behind CJ now (as well as bashing Brent Detwiler and the “bitter bloggers”) does not negate that he previously spoke so highly of them, to the point where he influenced people to seek out SGM churches and stick with them. If Tim Challies has changed his mind about SGM, then he owes it to his readers to talk about that. He owes it to his readers to put up some sort of disclaimer about his previous implied endorsements.
Mr. Challies is very aware that I feel this way. I have contacted him no less than 3 times over the past 3 1/2 years to express my dismay and concern.
The person who is so quick to respond here with rebukes, before actually READING and COMPREHENDING what I wrote, is, in my opinion, the one who looks like a fool.
Lauren, I just listened to the msg from Time Square. Thank you for posting that, it was really what I desperately needed to hear today. Thank you.
Reformed & Charismatic, aka Lyn, thanks for telling your story, I was part of your cfc care group oh so long ago, when things were simpler and more tender-hearted. It was good to hear how you guys are doing. May the Lord bless you and Mark and your family, I can still hear Mark’s beautiful harmony’s during worship.
Blessings,
Deb, aka “much afraid no more”
cfc 1994-1999
gcc – 1999-2009
“I am among you as one who serves” said Jesus.
Mr. El Pastor, I attended Southern Seminary for a few semesters shortly before Dr. Mohler took the helm. It was not a liberal seminary. The professors did urge us to go beyond blindly accepting what we’d always heard. We grappled with new ideas. And people struggled. But it was a good place to be.
Not all of us feel that Dr. Mohler has improved the seminary.
Matt – great post! There has been much evil done in the name of God and Jesus through out history. One of the things swept under the carpet about church history is the fact the Calvin’s teaching (which influenced the Dutch church)influenced slavery. The Dutch where the original slave traders and they claimed that God was OK with it because those people where not God’s “elect”. That history has been re-written in the Church. We know about Calvin’s “burning at the stake” of people, which in turn stayed with the puritanical reign in early American history.
5 Years – I saw you post on the other page and respectfully disagree. But you are still OK in my book :) My analysis of the puritanical reign shows a group that used fear and intimidation to scare people into obeying. Just read “Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God” or about the witch trials. That is how they grew. They also had the fortune of being in charge of Government. My analysis is that it had less to do with the Holy Spirit and more to do with how they pushed their agenda through. If you disagreed, you could be labeled a witch. It’s OK if you don’t agree with me!
I just hate that today’s neo-reformed “big dogs” quote these men as if they wrote the bible themselves and ignore the bloody and sometimes evil history behind their belief system.
I want to add this to my remarks about Tim Challies:
I continue to have high respect for Mr. Challies…BUT, if he has really backed away from thinking so highly of SGM, or if he has changed his mind about CJ Mahaney in any way, he owes it to his readers to speak out with some sort of disclaimer.
That doesn’t mean that he needs to say anything forcefully negative about SGM – just (maybe, hypothetically speaking) that he’s had reasons to question things and isn’t sure where he stands about them anymore…that if a person joined an SGM church in part because of something positive on Challies’ website, the person should listen to his own discernment and not rely too heavily on a blogger’s seeming endorsement.
It’s not enough for an influential blogger like Challies to just change his mind. If he previously seemed to endorse something, he needs to correct the record if he has quit endorsing it.
…and I still don’t get why being “Reformed,” or “reahhly Reformed”, or “truly, madly, DEEPLY Reformed” is such a badge of honor. :P I don’t mean to make any of you mad, but hearing all this “Well, we’re more reformed than THEY are” just makes me chuckle.
The Baptists I grew up around just never made a big deal about being Reformed.
Luna, you’re a person that can help, then. What ideas that you “always heard” were you not to blindly accept? What new ideas were you grappling with? The answer to those questions will help a lot. Thanks!
Lauren–
thank you also for reminding me of how much I have loved the sermons in the past from Times Square Church. See, I am no stranger to issues with the church. I left my charismatic-Church of God several years ago over similar type issues, but mainly seriously bad BAD teaching. During that time, I hadn’t gone to church in over 4 years. I would listen to David Wilkerson, Carter Conlon and the crew for awhile. While I didn’t always agree with them theologically, it simply didn’t matter. They weren’t so far off base that their teaching was unrecognizeable as compared to Scripture, and yet, it was what I needed.
One of my favorite sermons, there in the archives, is called You Will Survive this Place of Weeping. I remember thinking, as I have thought recently, how God just deserted me, how he cared nothing for me, how he allowed these abuses and lies to happen in my life–and this sermon ministered to the depths of my soul. I wept profusely and so deeply as I listened to it. I dont remember crying with such sorrow and deepness in a long time. My heart was so damaged and so hurt–that all I had to offer was wails of deep sorrow. Today, I believe God heard me. But it has taken years, even reflecting back on it, to believe that God cared that day and that he heard my sorrow and cared for my heart.
But as I have left my church recently, CHBC, and have gone through (probably even worse), my heart has been grieved, not as deeply as it had been then because I have remembered my deliverances and how God delivered me before nad took me through excruciating pain. I was confident that he was there and is here this time, my Jehovah Shimmah (my God who is here with me).
Also, if you are reading today and are weary in heart, look in the archives for Remembering Your Deliverances, also from Times Square Church. It’s also written in their pulpit series. Honestly, I miss knowing the compassion and fervent love and comfort of God that I used to learn about when I heard those sermons. Yet, I have been lambashed these past two years with God hates my sin, and others picking my heart to death for sin, and how Sovereign God is. It all makes me wanna spew my lunch.
I do take to heart what 5yearsinPDI said in the last post, not to swing the pendulum to the other side, and not to take lightly our daily need for repentance and not forgetting that we are sinners. 5years is right. And 5years also said that we need balance. So I agree with 5years there, who naturally, is just agreeing with God. We shall not forget that we are sinners, and to repent daily, for then we can understand God’s love for us–but we shall move beyond our sin, and continue on in forgiveness and freedom and joy in the Lord.
. . .
Kris–
This past week, I have been feeling very much like you. In addition, I’m not sure exactly what I believe anymore when it comes to doctrine and all these theological arguments. I have read most of them: Edwards, Burroughs, Lloyd-Jones, Grudem, Piper, Dever, Calvin and so forth. At the end of the day, I cannot say that all of this has contributed to amazing growth in my understanding of who God is and my walk as a Christian. There are some good things that have come out of these teachings. But I am not sure much more than would have come out of me just studying Scripture for myself and even settling with what “elementary” beliefs and understandings that I would have come up with. I have missed God–not missed as in missing the mark, but I have missed Him–He has seemed absent from all this religion and doctrine. I have missed his warmth, his heart, his compassion towards me. I have not found it in any of this, and yet, I know that some of the teachings are quite correct. It’s not all the time the teaching that has gotten me to this place, but the arguments and attitudes from preachers, teachers and other lay people that were behind them.
These sermons at Times Square Church may not have been the most theologically astute and academic, but nevertheless, they taught me a lot about God, never ignored my sin, but showed me that I was the apple of my father’s eye.
I believe that God sets out teachers and those to spread and share the Gospel, which means “the news” and that is Christ came, taught, died on the Cross for our sins, and has risen. I appreciate that these teachers have set out on this course, to share the Gospel. I am just afraid that some of what they are teaching is another gospel. Some other news that I just didn’t need to be broadcasted.
I miss God and I so desperately want to be close to Him–up under his bosom, in the shadow of his wings, where I am safe and secure. Where he is a wall of fire around me and my glory within. That’s the God I miss. I have the sneaking suspicion that he wants to be found–kinda like he’s standing right beside me, all eagle-eyed with a smile saying “I’m here”. Today, and maybe yesterday, and all the yesterdays before it, I have just needed God.
I think this song is quite fitting for the whole of us who are feeling this today… Think hard about each of these statements! They are so true about God, and Him alone.
. . .
In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My Comforter, my All in All
Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless Babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save
Til on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live
There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory
Sins curse has lost its grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Bought with the precious blood of Christ
No guilt in life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From a lifes first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Could ever pluck me from His hand
Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I stand
I will stand, I will stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground, all other ground
Is sinking sand, is sinking sand
So I stand
(you all finish singing with me! It shall be a glorious chorus just praising God for how good He is in Christ alone!)
. . .
I do like SOME of the prayers in The Valley of Vision, although they can be a bit grave at times. Here is one of my faves:
Peril
Sovereign Commander of the Universe,
I am sadly harassed by doubts, fears, unbelief,
in a felt spiritual darkness.
My heart is full of evil surmisings and disquietude,
and I cannot act faith at all.
My heavenly Pilot has disappeard,
and I have lost my hold on the Rock of Ages;
I sink in deep mire beneath storms and waves,
in horror and distress unutterable.
Help me, O Lord,
to throw myself absolutely and wholly on thee,
for better, for worse, without comfort,
and all but hopeless.
Give me peace of soul, confidence, enlargement of mind,
morning joy that comes after night heaviness;
Water my soul with divine blessings;
Grant that I may welcome that humbling in private
so that I might enjoy thee in public;
Give me a mountain top as high as the valley is low.
Thy grace can melt the worst sinner, and I am as vile as he;
Yet thou hast made me a monument of mercy,
a trophy of redeeming power;
In my distress let me not forget this.
All-wise God,
Thy never-failing providence orders every event,
sweetens every fear,
reveals evil’s presence lurking in seeming good,
brings real good out of seeming evil,
makes unsatisfactory what I set my heart upon,
to show me what a short-sighted creature I am,
and to teach me to live by faith upon
thy blessed self.
Out of sorrow and night
give me the name Naphtali –
‘satisfied with favour’ –
help me to love thee as thy child,
and to walk worthy of my heavenly pedigree.
“I am certainly open to further reading on Southern Baptist Seminary (could you point me to some sources?), but I knew people attending at the time, and they were shocked at the amount of classroom instruction aimed at underminining the authority of Scripture. I don’t know where you stand on such things, but to me it’s important.”
I always read the other side. I was a big supporter of what Mohler was doing back in the 90’s. But he could not stop once he started. And before the internet, few people knew what was going on unless they were involved. Some very good people were thrown under the bus because they did not sign the BFM. I am not a creedal person so I was appalled at this one.
There were a few wackos teaching who questioned things like the Virgin Birth, etc. But they were few and could have been fired. But it became a witch hunt concerning such doctrines as the Priesthood, gender roles, baptism, etc.
But mainly it was political. A re-alignment of republican/democrat baptists. And I am ashamed to say I was all for it. Now those roots are so deep that one is not sure what one means when they say conservative Christian. Politically? Orthodox? It is both but with lots of extra biblical doctrines thrown in.
I am still to the right of Ronald Reagan politically but that has litte to do with the truths of the Word. Everyone has their bent. The liberals are into social justice, the conservatives think lower taxes and less government is more Christian.
I say we could be believers living in China and doing underground church. But I still vote and I vote conservative.
All you have to do is google Southern Baptist Convention take over or SBTS takeover and start reading the stories. It is not unlike reading SGM stories.
I am no longer a “side” man. I do not do movements or groups. A big problem is we want an identity with a group. Our identity is with Christ alone. And that might mean we have only a few others to fellowship with.
NLR, mattlinco at gmail dot com
An interesting post at Sovereign Grace Ministries under “Listening.” At: http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Listening.aspx
“Dave:
“In last Sunday evenings members only meeting at CLC Joshua and other pastors stated that they only found out about the CJ threat to expose the confidentially confessed sin if one of the Tomczak’s children three weeks ago when Brent sent his documents too all the SGM pastors. Yet you knew (as well as Brent and Steve Shank?) because, according to Brent’s docs the A team consulted Attorney Chip Grange (btw a member of CLC at the time and still is—and may have also been CLC’s attorney as well at that time). Is this true and accurate? If so, what did you characterize what has been called a “blackmail” attempt by CJ at the time? Did you view this as wrong, sinful, unfortunate, a minor gaff, something said in the heat if the moment and therefore somewhat excusable, or what. The fact that the A team sought legal advice on the threatened action leads me to believe that this action was seriously considered as an option. If considered as an option then it does not appear to me that the team considered the threatened action as a sinful attempt of coercion on CJ’s part and in fact considered it a viable strategy until the legal advice indicated it made the A team “vulnerable.” Would you please explain to all interested parties the biblical, theological, ethical, and moral basis for even taking the step of seeking legal advice on pursuing the threatened action. Again, since legal advice was sought, this indicates that this threat was not just something said in the heat or passion of the moment and then rejected. It indicates that the leaders of what is now SGM apparently did not consider at all that CJ’s threat of exposure was in any way shape or form, sinful, unethical, immoral, manipulative, stupid, and rendered CJ unfit. Everyone I know reacted to the revelation regarding this incident pretty much the same way— it was egregiously sinful. I am wondering why the men we assumed were muture, humble servants of God faithfully leading the movement I was a part of for 30 years, to put it mildly, missed this (and let it stay hidden and in secret for mire than a decade). Can you please offer some explanation for something that remains even to this day inexplicable. If you prefer to meet in person, I would be more than happy to do so since I am no longer a part if SGM or CLC and therefore no longer have a care or concern for how I am viewed by those still part of SGM.
“Best regards,
Steve Zahm
Email: [edited to remove email address]. (please only SGM staff respond to this. If I receive any threatening or verbally abusive emails from well- meaning but unwise and perhaps
stupid blindly loyal members of SGM churches, I will pursue any legal means to prosecute you as their are laws on the books in most states now against . :-)”
Matt said, “Appealing to the doctrines of man interpretations of the Book we all own never gets us very far in our walk with our Savior. It is good to read for historical purposes but for the purpose of becoming closer to Christ? Please, no.
Jesus Christ never fails.”
Amen! I follow Christ. The rest of us Christians are as big a wanker as I am. Why would I care to follow anyone but Jesus?
JESUS paid for my sins.
JESUS bought me for a precious price.
JESUS loves me.
JESUS wants to be in fellowship with me at all times.
No other human being has done that for me.
God is a jealous God. He wants me to be His alone and to follow no one else.
JESUS rocks.
The rest of us? Idiots.
Hi Abednego, welcome! I am glad your experience has been such a good one and that God has brought you even closer to Himself!
Stunned
Matt–
I think that many conservative Christians think God is a republican. It’s almost that the two MUST go hand in hand, if you are conservative about doctrine, etc… then you almost must be conservative. Living in the DC metro and going to church on the Hill has been eyeopening when it has come to Christians exploiting their God to enhance their political views. Not only did we have to be cornering the market, so to speak, in theology and healthy churches, but we also have the right politics. You couldn’t have possibly been a Christian and be a democrat. It’s just not possible. That’s the message I, and many others, have received.
Funny thing is, most people, I would go into their homes, that were also on the Hill, and there would be photographs, plates, etc… of George Bush and fam AS IF they were these people’s family members. The way I saw it, there was their Doctrine, community, healthy church, God, Jesus, Bush, Republicanism, and a bunch of other things, then the Holy Spirit. I have witnessed these same professing believers say verbatum on their facebook posts that Obama should just die. Or Obama is a fool. Or this or that. As if they knew all there is about this man. I dont agree with his politics. But I dont have the desire, either, to say hateful things about him in that way. As far as I am concerned, ALL politics are just as filthy and ridiculous and in no way, measure to God’s Word and who God is.
And culturally speaking, many African-Americans I know simply didn’t vote for Obama either because he was black, but they sure didn’t vote for Bush. Considering our past, which is quite recent when considering that much of this ended somewhat in teh 60s, so to speak, we’re not all entirely a culture of people who are so trusting of our Government, and rightfully so. So coming from my own cultural issues, and thoughts, I found it often disconcerting how people mixed religion and politics in the way that they did. I’m quite apolitical and don’t really choose A or B. I kinda choose Z. Whatever Z is.
Again, politics. Another ideology that Christians elevate to the status of thus saith the Lord. Then on top of that, add cultural ideologies, nationalism, etc… and it all becomes a tense somewhat racist, if not racist, context. Made me and others entirely uncomfortable.
One other thought…
My pastor would say one time or another, that in regards to unbelievers and evangelism, that people would say, “I can’t believe in God because I dont know all there is about Him.” And he would say to them, you dont have to know everything about God to KNOW him and to believe he exists.
He was right. But why does it seem like these RBDs and this whole neo-Calvinist/Reformed movement is doing just that–him included. Seeking to know all there is about God–who Himself, says that much of who He is is a mystery–and refusing to believe that maybe much of what they might believe isn’t true or is in error. They argue, argue and argue every point, making so many minor issues so MAJOR. Not that we shouldn’t pursue to know God through His Word. But this extremism (in some degree) is so counter intuitive in regards to that statement. For me, it all makes God seem so…small. So boxed up. So figured out.
Little lads and lasses used to memorize the Q and A of the Heidelberg Catechism, for centuries. But alas, the effort from the basement to reinvent the wheel. Hear the comfort in this? (I’m thinking especially of Sadsoul’s note a while back. Here’s comfort, not abuse. I don’t think this can be improved if pondered.)
Question 1. What is thy only comfort in life and death?
Answer: That I with body and soul, both in life and death, (a) am not my own, (b) but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; (c) who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, (d) and delivered me from all the power of the devil; (e) and so preserves me (f) that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; (g) yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, (h) and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, (i) and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him. (j)
(a) Rom.14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. Rom.14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s. (b) 1 Cor.6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? (c) 1 Cor.3:23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s. Tit.2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (d) 1 Pet.1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 1 Pet.1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake. (e) Heb.2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (f) John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 2 Thess.3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 1 Pet.1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (g) Matt.10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. Matt.10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Matt.10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Luke 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. (h) Rom.8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (i) 2 Cor.1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 2 Cor.1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 2 Cor.1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. 2 Cor.5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Eph.1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph.1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Rom.8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (j) Rom.8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Question 2. How many things are necessary for thee to know, that thou, enjoying this comfort, mayest live and die happily?
Answer: Three; (a) the first, how great my sins and miseries are; (b) the second, how I may be delivered from all my sins and miseries; (c) the third, how I shall express my gratitude to God for such deliverance. (d)
(a) Matt.11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matt.11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Matt.11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 1 Cor.6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Tit.3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. Tit.3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Tit.3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Tit.3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Tit.3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (b) John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. (c) John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 10:43 To him (Jesus) give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (d) Eph.5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: Eph.5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Eph.5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. Eph.5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 1 Pet.2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 1 Pet.2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. Rom.6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Rom.6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom.6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Rom.6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Hoi Polloi and Much Afraid No More, I’m glad that touched you in a meaningful way. It sure brought me to prayer. I pray many listen to that sermon and feel strengthened.
NLR, you are discerning. Many are more interested in reclaiming America than they are in proclaiming the Gospel.
You might find this interesting:
http://worldviewweekend.com/worldview-tube/video.php?videoid=4450
How do Southern Baptists Elect Deacons and Elders
Hello All: I have a quick question about the Southern Baptist’s approach to nominating and electing elders and deacons. In almost all mainline protestant churches, to my knowledge, deacons and elders are elected democratically by members of the laity (ordinary congregants).
However, I’ve done some research and can’t figure out how Southern Baptist Churches nominate and elect deacons and elders. Does the laity elect such leaders or are they appointed by pastors? Do different SBC churches have different methods of determining who becomes an elder or deacon?
Thanks.
Hello All,
I can’t speak for others but I want to strongly state that my reservations about SGM’s leadership structure and my belief that it’s essentially “papist” does not mean that I’m anti-Catholic. I know many wonderful Catholic Christians who do great work and honor God within the context of their Catholic belief system.
I just don’t think that people who promote a church structure, in which the clergy are only held accountable to members of the church hierarchy, rather than their congregants, should be calling themselves Protestants as that system of church governance is only practiced by the Roman Catholic Church at this time, to my knowledge.
Donald P. Veitch–
You said “Given the anti-intellectualism of much in our time, this is precisely why this scribe will not go to most churches.”
What does that mean? Why wouldn’t the scribe go to most churches? Sorry, I found that comment interesting and wanted you to expound upon it a little. Thanks.
Also, I understand your appreciation for the Prayer Books that are sung in your congregation and how you believe it to be the finest. My argument that it is also a matter of your culture, and not simply exactly what Scripture commands as worship, is another argument. I would have to believe firmly that the music or songs sung by ancient cultures, who also were Christians, probably didn’t sound like or was practised in the way that you do worship at your church.
You may not like the hand-waiving, or emotional connection that you see in other churches, and I can understand why. I do see how in many more charismatic circles, worship and emotional response can get out of hand and become undignified. But that doesn’t mean that it is necessarily wrong. You dont know if the psalmists or people in ancient history never did these things and just sang ‘deadly’ as you say. I appreciate all types of music, and all types of worship. But I think I understand, surely, that music, even and most especially in the church, whether from a prayer book, hymn or current Christian artist, is all affected and a product of our culture mixed in with our theology.
I could easily say and back up my view that Gospel music is also the finest form of worship. But we can clearly see that Gospel is cultural. I’m not sure why some people (and I dont mean you, because I dont know if you mean to say this) can’t see that their hymns and prayer book singing is also cultural. Gospel music often sings Scripture in song, just like prayer books and hymns. And I have no idea what the music of churches sound like in India, Kuala Lumpur, Micronesia, Ireland, or any other place might sound. I do know that in China, it was entirely different. But again, it did sing Scripture. They did worship and wave their hands and closed their eyes as they sang. But just because you choose not to, I hope you do understand that that rather is a choice, and you are FREE to worship with your eyes closed, if you so chose, and your hands waving, if you so chose–and God would still be glorified.
Lauren–
Thank you. That is a compliment. I hope to continue to be discerning. I’ve let too many people trick me into silencing it. At least from a cultural perspective, Lauren, as an African-American, I sure as heck hope we don’t “reclaim America”. I think it would benefit us all to keep moving forward. God calls us to be present. How is reclaiming the past helping us to become present.
My grandmother used to read Scripture to us. And she would always say how there was nothing new under the sun (as Scripture tells us). When she would read those dreaded stories in the OT, I would think wow! I am sooooo glad I didn’t live in those times! I would be dead or depressed, or just lost.
The same way I thought that, the same I think about our current times. I dont want to go back to the past. The past was hard, ridiclous and had it’s own set of huge issues. I have stated here before, stories about the “women” (don’t ask why I put women in quotes) at my most recent church would just melt over Jane Austen movies and stories. While I liked soem of the girly aspects of it. I realized I never would have wanted to live in those times. Most of all is because I’m black. I woulda been a slave or someone’s servant. Do you know all the years I have heard how amazing Gone with the Wind was, I had never watched it…until 3 years ago. I’m 33 by the way. Yeah, at 30 years old I decided to watch this wonderful movie, and I was simply…confused. Angered. Upset. Frightened. That this movie got such amazing praises in the Christian circles I ran in, and yet, I could see the blatant racism and sexism etc… That movie, produced during it’s time, wasn’t trying to make a political statement or statement about morality. It was supposed to be a love story. I appreciate movies that contain racism or sexism to make a point in teaching us about bad morals. That DID NOT do that or set out on that purpose.
In the same way, Jane Austen doesn’t do that either. So while I like Jane, and I understand that she was a product of her time, I just know that had I been born then, I would not be wearing pretty dresses, and having lovely white men talk to me in that way, woo me and put me up in a big house, or write love letters, or these tug-o-war relationships. I simply would not have been free.
I don’t want to go back to the past. It was not good for my people. Yet, as a woman, it was not even good for my sex. So either way, black or woman, I shall let the past stay where it is. I am grateful for the time in history that God choose me to be born.
About the term “Reformed”: I really wish people like the SGM “pastors” (and SBC types) would stop playing fast and loose with that word. It does not = “Reformation” and by no means is all Protestant theology “Reformed.” (As y’all know anyway, but I once had a very difficult convo with a friend from CLC who thought that Lutheran theology is the exact same thing as Reformed theology. Not.)
@ Donald: Interesting that you would use the term “Confessional Lutheran.” I grew up Lutheran (and am back there again, after a long trek through evangelical/charismatic circles) and I have never, ever heard the term “confessional” tied to “Lutheran,” though there certainly are important documents with the word “confession” in them. (The Augsburg Confession, for example.)
@ matt: Dude, I like you and am very much in agreement with you for the most part, but where did that “Anabaptists are legalistic” thing come from? There are big, big differences within the Mennonite church itself in terms of practice and belief – and I betcha you wouldn’t be able to identify most Mennonites walking down the street in my locale, because they look just like you and me. (A few women do wear head coverings, though they’re few and far between these days.) Not everyone looks like they’re first cousins to Amish (though some are, literally).
All that to say: distinctive clothing is much less important to lots of contemporary Anabaptists than confession of faith and practice of faith. Hope I’m making sense here; it’s been a long day!… For that matter, the Amish themselves are pretty diverse; lots of practices are unique to individual churches.)
@DPV #33 – I knew S. Zahm fairly well when I was at CLC. He was one of the very few who was entirely supportive of me pursuing my BA. I admire his thoughtful and hard hitting questions on several of the SGM blog posts. Sadly, there are few left at CLC like him. CLC has been thinned of diversity of thought over the years (both forcefully and by members own volition).
@ NLR: on “Gone with the Wind” – preach it, sis!
I’ve tried to watch it a number of times, and just can’t … it’s way too bigoted, and cringe every time poor Butterfly McQueen has a line. (I realize it was a paying job for her – and for other black actors and actresses of the era – but my oh my.)
fwiw, I am not black… and I appreciate your speaking about the conflation of religion, politics and white-peopleness on the Hill and elsewhere in the DC Metro area. (Where I lived for nearly 20 years.) I belonged to a couple of churches that had a few non-white members, and I just don’t think anyone really wanted to listen to their perspectives on a *lot* of things. (I know I’m clueless in many ways, but I’m trying to learn…)
Also… I just wanted to clarify as well that the past was not only simply bad for black people or women, but people in general. The present is also bad for people in general. I should also add that I am glad for the present, and that we don’t live in the past, because I could not freely worship with caucasian/white sisters and brothers, I could not marry a caucasian/white man (yes, I am an equal opportunity dater :) ha) and include “others” in my family and in my heart. I love it that many of my friends are white, asian, etc… I love them! I would be gravely sad to have missed out on them. The joy and wonderment that their love and care and friendship brings to my life. We all would so miss out on that. And if your life is a little homogeneous, or A LOT homogeneous, you should, how shall I say, expand it a lot more. You have NO IDEA what you’re missing out on. Diversity in relationships, in love, in family is beautiful and an amazing experience.
“There were a few wackos teaching who questioned things like the Virgin Birth, etc. But they were few and could have been fired. But it became a witch hunt concerning such doctrines as the Priesthood, gender roles, baptism, etc.”
Thank you, Matt,
Your comments help me very much, and I will look into all that. I do think questioning the virgin birth in a seminary means something was very,very wrong there.
@ Matt again: y’know, re. the Anabaptist/legalism thing, I’m not sure that’s any different than the rules people are supposed to follow in many Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal (et. al.) churches, even today… (and charismatic, for that matter.)
Although I do think that these “rules” aren’t necessarily spelled out as much as they were 40, 50, 100 years ago.
Just sayin’…
Numo–
I always have this special appreciation and place in my heart for the “other” who says while I am clueless, I realize that things are seen through a particular lens that’s quite one-sided, and yet, teach me! I want to learn about you! I absolutely love that.
In truth, as a black person, I have to have that same attitude. In America, though, when you are a minority, you know much more, a WHOLE LOT MORE, about the majority than they know about you. You have to because you live in “their” world, i.e. a world that’s pretty much catered to a certain culture or race (although sometimes I may use culture and race interchangeably, I realize that one can be white and from the north or white and from the south and have two distinct cultures but the same race). But in general, and very general, the culture of America’s majority is more closely related to those who are white. I do understand that is changing in a lot of places, i.e. California, Florida, Texas, etc… But you get my point.
But if I’m born into a majority culture, then I naturally will have to understand and live within their world in order to “make it”. But if I am a majority, I dont need to necessarily know about the minority in order to be successful or go about my life. If I you were in certain parts of Africa, it would be the same for you. You’d be the minority. Or if you were in the Presidents Cabinet right now and a republican, hahahaha! I’m sure you see where I’m going.
I ask my Asian friends all the time to teach me about their culture and ways of life, in general. Because as they are diverse, I’m sure there are probably more commonalities amongst them that I could learn about. I hope they appreciate that I want to learn even though I have been clueless.