Responding To The Question Of Strengths And Weaknesses…
July 24, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
The last post here generated so many really good responses to this question, which was submitted by someone who is currently a pastor at a Sovereign Grace Ministries church:
From your vantage point what are the primary weaknesses within SGM?
Do you see any strengths?
I thought it would be good to continue the discussion. Here’s one comment (from “Not Again”) that struck me as particularly comprehensive:
I already wrote a long post about problems with our leadership. Even the terminology bugs me a little. It starts sounding more like we are talking about a labor vs. management business dispute with corporate headquarters instead of believers addressing sin and error among our elders.
Here is a short list of specific problems:
Focus on the work of Christ more than a relationship with Jesus
Focus on crucifix/Cross vs. empty cross and empty tomb
Continual focus on indwelling sin vs. indwelling Christ
Status as sinners, lowly worms vs. saints of God, beloved by the Father
Obsession with right doctrine and practice (valuable) over life in the Spirit (essential)
Making the ‘main’ thing the ONLY thing vs. going on to maturity (Hebrews 6:1,2)
Introspection (me and my sin) vs. Outreach (Jesus to the world)
‘Serving the church’ vs. serving the Lord
The means has become the end. Instead of the church existing to serve the Lord, build up His people, and reach the world, now His people exist to serve the church, the Lord is all about the local church, and the world can be saved by coming to our SGM church.Pigeon-holing people into hierarchical ‘roles’ instead of receiving them as equal and uniquely-gifted individuals
Stepford conformity vs. beautiful, Spirit-led I Cor. 12 diversity
Hypercontrol and micromanagement. Grown adults needing permission to start a Bible study or a mercy ministry?
Care group as performance review and group-think exercise instead of Bible study and, you know, actual care
Ingrown elitism vs. honoring Jesus as Lord of His universal Church –
‘We’re not saying we’re better, really. It’s just that, well, everybody needs what we have.’ Our doctrine, our practice, our music, our books, our insider jargon, our interpretation of what Christian living looks like, our conferences, our way of doing youth group, our approach to community, our gender roles and rules, (modesty checklists and courtship questions, multiple tops and regulated purse straps, blank countertops and no junk drawers, bouncing eyes and remote control committees), etc. Our way is so wonderful, it would ‘serve’ you never to move away from SGM, never even to go to college away from SGM, never to marry outside of SGM, and not really to hang around with anyone from SGM unless ‘intentionally’ to bring them in to SGM.
Loaded language. Coded group lingo. Words twisted from their true meanings. Redefining “gossip.” “slander,” “pride,” “humility,” “serve,” etc. in ways that stifle truth. Rewriting God’s priorities for Him.
Marketing vs. Ministry –
Planting churches in desirable upper-middle class neighborhoods vs. going into all the world, even to the least of these.
Planting churches in neighborhoods already full of churches so as to steal the sheep who are itching for our niche distinctives.
SGM only works (where it has worked) because it is populated by Christians whose lives are working fairly well. It is probably inadequate for hearty, full-fledged missions. The typical SGM way of doing things would be laughed at and tossed on its ear by people on the bottom rungs of society who’ve been on the receiving end of enough baloney and power trips to know it when they see it. I expect SGM would get its hiney handed to it in an inner city setting. Nice, polite corporate-types will play the game, but the regular person on the street will say, “I smell BS!”
Arrogance passing for and boasting of humility
STOP the encouragement of hero worship. (Yes, it is encouraged, and it could easily be ended if those at the top wanted it to be.)
STOP already with the ridiculous kowtowing and genuflecting to our esteemed leaders when they take the stage! It’s like, “I’ll kiss yours if you’ll kiss mine.” Yuck. What a misapplication of honor where honor is due.
STOP promoting and sending to Pastors College malleable young ‘golden boys’ with the need to please and the urge to climb the corporate ladder.
STOP also with heaping profuse public praise on those who fit the mold and advance the brand — good-looking, dressed-just-right, late-twenties/mid-thirties couples with an acceptable professional income and 2.8 adorable children (more to follow) who adore the pastors and ‘serve the church’.
This all functions as a social control tactic which reinforces the clergy/laity gap. It lays a snare for the feet of those being flattered and causes the lesser-esteemed sheep to fall into line and try harder to please and fit the mold so they, too, might one day be worthy of a pat on the head and an ‘atta boy’ before men.
Deceit, manipulation, and hypocrisy vs. truth, respect, and honor –
STOP with the closed-door, ‘secret-club’ stuff where leaders decide what is best for the lowly sheep and then sneak it in subtly or stomp into town and pronounce it a done deal, whammo, and all the churches suddenly switch. (What do the leaders base these decisions on anyway? Their impressions? Their whims? Their latest readings? The current trends and winds of doctrine? What’s selling? What just bit them in the rear? God’s Word? Who knows?)
STOP with changing what was wrong without ever acknowledging that it was wrong or taking steps to make amends.
STOP saying everyone is a sinner whose heart cannot be trusted, and then giving leaders a get-out-of-accountability-free card.
STOP the rank nepotism and cronyism.
STOP the use of SGM funds for suspect purposes: buying favor and position (a la the CJ/Mohler sweetheart deal), hiring relatives over people of greater merit (looking at you, C.J), allowing the leaders to mutually set their own salaries and benefits, allowing the key players to double-and triple-dip by being on church payroll, SGM payroll, and on the speaking circuit as well, using time and travel paid (at least indirectly) by we the people to write a few sermons they give over and over, to enrich their own coffers while grievously, almost criminally neglecting the ministry entrusted to their care. (And the ‘almost’ in that last sentence may be stretching it.)
STOP treating us like we are stupid while flattering us like you care.
STOP deciding we are incapable or disallowed from having a voice in our own affairs, so that you spend untold sums of SGM money (our giving to God) to hire a supposedly-neutral consulting firm to do the church’s business and decide our fate.
STOP jerking us around and spending our money to try to decide whether C.J. is qualified or not. C.J. would just step down voluntarily if he cared about the church and were willing to practice what he says he believes. He is not only unqualified, (being by no stretch of the term “above reproach”) but he has proven by this present state of affairs to be incompetent to lead, as well, as have at least a few others. (Probably Dave Harvey and Steve Shank, for starters.)
STOP pretending like SGM pastors are trained in and know how to counsel or deal with difficult situations while also looking down with suspicion on outside counselors.
STOP pretending SGM pastors know more than everybody else about what can go on in someone’s heart, mind, brain, body, neurochemistry, etc.
STOP thinking that a Biblical admonition and a prayer of forgiveness can always and immediately undo a mental illness or damaged psyche. (SGM doesn’t even believe in prayer for physical healing like we once did, but refuse to recognize a category for mental and emotional/neurological illness, making it all sin.)
STOP making everything about personal sin BY the one having a problem. Why can’t it ever be about having a normal human response to sin done TO the one who is struggling? Try weeping with those who weep before you try scolding them.
Why did you SGM pastors ever revictimize a victim? Why? Really?
Didn’t you ever just want to maybe go take a baseball bat to the offender and break his kneecaps? Or maybe grab the pruning shears? Even a little? Did not a speck of valor and Biblical manhood rise up within you to defend the poor, the weak, the downtrodden, the injured?
It wouldn’t really be your place to brutalize an offender. But it is far worse, a stench to God, to brutalize the wounded.
Most of all, STOP trying to tweak something that was flawed at the outset and now is broken almost beyond repair. Fall on your faces, cry out to God, repent, renounce the unfruitful deeds of darkness, and submit to the dealings of the Lord. Maybe He will repair and restore SGM. Maybe He will crush it. Oh, well. Jesus is still Lord and His Church will do just fine, with or without SGM.
(Okay, maybe not so short a list, after all.)
As we continue the discussion, it would be helpful for those who feel comfortable doing so to share a bit about their history with SGM. How long have they been (or how long were they) part of the organization? Which church(es) did they attend?
By the way – Guy and I were out of town this past weekend, with an unexpected lack of internet access. To all of you who had comments stuck in moderation, I apologize.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Sorry to Kris and Guy. This comment is for the last post. I got there too late to post.
@ Janna (#421 last post) — Regarding your comment “(blogging = slander = you’re a bad Christian equation),” our whole SGM story (mostly my wife Lucy’s) is about that very thing. Click on the name for the link, if you’re interested.
The conversation in the last post meandered onto the topic of SGM’s use of very specific and restrictive membership covenants. While membership covenants aren’t directly connected to the question about SGM’s strengths and weaknesses, the idea that SGMers are asked to sign these things is nonetheless an important item that SGM leaders will want to examine as they think about what needs to change.
Here’s what “Unassimilated” had to say about membership covenants:
Unassimilated also dug up Roanoker’s comment:
500 something comments above in #58, Walking Wounded said:
“So – is this pastor effectively posting on the blog anonymously?”
WW was making a joke and said something about “reform at SGM”…(cute joke, by the way).
But…that question has nagged at me all weekend since I read it. So…really…I am STILL hearing about anonymous bloggers.
The double standards just go on and on and on….why? Anonymous pastor, please tell us your name. That would help us understand your concerns better.
Thanks,
Sidney
Sidney,
To clarify, this SGM pastor sent me these questions in an email. I believe he was just asking me for my opinion…it was MY idea to open up his question to everyone.
He never requested anonymity.
Ok. Thanks, Kris.
Went to the members meeting last night at CLC. I have an idea the pastors there can start with, How about having some honesty!!!
What stuck out to me again is the lack of it. Again they all, except Josh, looked like they wanted to be anywhere else.
A member asked Kenneth Maresco, Robin Boisvert, Grant Lahman and Mark Mitchelle if at the time the LT situation was going on and they knew the information that is out there now, would they consider CJ unfit to be a pastor? He asked those 4 because they were on staff when that happened. NOT ONE, thats right, NOT ONE of them would answer. Didn’t even reach for a microphone.(idol worship of CJ? :scratch ) Robin finally said he couldn’t say what he would have done 14 years ago because we don’t have all the facts.
Interesting. Really. Since CJ has stipulated to the facts and the Bible hasn’t changed in something like 2000 years, I would say that isn’t a hard question at all.
I think it’s been stated here several times in different ways, but I believe the root issue they are dealing with is CJ. He founded CLC and SGM. Is a member of CLC but works for SGM. And by the way SGM offices are located in the CLC building. Not only that but SGM ownes that space in the CLC building. CLC doesn’t rent the space to them, SGM ownes it! (That information came out in the second members meeting) How in the world does one seperate themselves from the founders influence if he is around every corner and they seem to give him undue defference??
This will take years to be fixed – the messed up system – hurt people will take a lot longer.
Thus my church shopping begins.
@Kris Wow, be specific about what you ask for. If all he wanted was your opinion he sure got an earful of feedback he wasn’t expecting. :D Please let me re-post the questions below as they pertain directly to the new focus of our discussion.
@Henry Thanks, happymom sent me to your site and I loved it, and I noted the “slander” issues you and you wife were having. I’d like to develop some standard answer to the “you bloggers are a bunch of (fill in the blanks)” that the “other side” is presently throwing around.
However, when the “other side” uses so many obfuscation tactics, such as redefining words and deliberately hiding some key propaganda points in what I call Theo-babble, (it’s like psycho-babble but instead of repeating feel good cliches you cram as many random Bible verses and theological concepts into a document as possible to make yourself look like an expert and make others feel guilty about not studying the Bible as much as you appear to be studying it), crafting a standard measured response to what the “other side” is saying in such a way that it won’t be lost on people who are starting to think for themselves is tough. But I’m working on it with the help of the wonderful folks here…including you I hope.
@Lauren Regarding Secret Files- one of SGM’s more striking features, to me at least, is the degree to which it does not seem to consider itself subject to the laws and norms of a secular government in 2011. For instance, the law grants people a level of clergy/parishioner privilege. If I had a lawyer handy I’d ask the following questions:
1) Does the law super-cede SGM’s membership documents or can people casually waive their rights to clergy/parishioner confidentiality by signing a little vaguely worded piece of paper in a pressured group setting.
2) If waiving confidentiality is possible, can it be done carte blanche or is it more of a limited power of attorney thing meaning that the waiver only applies to certain people/situations.
For instance, if I sign a piece paper saying that an SGM pastor can blab about what I told him, does that cover all issues for all time? Or more realistically would we have to sign a new document every time I had a counseling session with a pastor indicating that I was once again waiving confidentiality?
3) Can I revoke this waiver thereby denying SGM the right to keep files on me, gossip about my marriage, black mail me by subtly threatening to release info about sins my 14-year-old committed 25 years ago, etc. ?
4) What if was a battered wife forced to sign this document by an abusive husband and the pastors knew that. If I suffered damages as a result of my confidentiality being violated, could I take civil again against them on any kind of grounds?
Just some thoughts…
ShockedCLCer
Your story doesn’t surprise me. Given the gravity of the charges against them these SGM leadership team members have undoubtedly been advised to say as little as possible by their attorneys. Granted, they almost never say anything substantive anyway, but you know what I mean. :wink:
Another inspiration to me is that his reported demeanor and continued willingness to cross the board leads me to think that Josh Harris appears to be the only major member of the SGM leadership team who can’t be black-mailed into compliance due to any skeletons in his closet.
Interesting.
Janna,
Clergy privilege exist for the sake of the parishioner, not the clergy. It is up to the member to waive that privilege.
Waving the privilege is waiving the privilege, and they put you through a comprehensive membership course before signing. They could argue that your waiving of privilege was in no way a “vaguely worded piece of paper in a pressured group setting.” They may also argue that their disclosures or lack of disclosures are a matter of Theology, and should not be subject to the law. You could have your attorney argue otherwise, but chances are the damage may already be done, and that these arguments would be part of a civil suit, rather than a cease and desist.
The document is all encompassing for your lifetime. There was one man who was “Lovingly pursued” out of four other churches before he took his life to “get away” from them (SGM). Sidney, SGM Single, you know who I am talking about. However there is a biblical counseling agreement that one must sign for things over a one time Pastoral visit. I do not have a copy with me, but as I recall, it gave them even more latitude in discretionary disclosure.
Your #3, Good question for SGM.
Your #4, Depends on the laws of your state, finding the right attorney, etc.
SGM is not the first or only brand with membership documents, however like most things SGM, it is more
what they do than what they say. Knowing what CJ is capable of, and the men around him, I would be pretty sick to my stomach knowing that I gave cart blanche to these men. Particularly when they have been keeping a file on my family. Just creepy…IMO
Hi! I know this is somewhat off-topic now butI wanted to respond to a comment made by Dara Krolick (#482) from the previous post. (By the way, while I completely understand and respect the reasons why others choose to remain anonymous, I do appreciate those who are starting to use their real names :D ) First of all,I’ve been spending some time on a blog I’ve never been to before…the SGM blog. Interesting things going on over there. More openness and transparency about the sins of SGM than I expected to find. I also saw more comments (obviously) from people who were still very loyal and committed to SGM like Dara. Her comment and the comments of those in the SGM blog really made me think.
I appreciate that Dara recognized that this blog is ultimately for revealing TRUTH….and nothing but the truth so help us God. I also appreciate that Dara mentioned SGM ministries to the poor, the sick, the needy, those in prison, etc. I had no idea that CLC and other churches were doing this. When I was there back in the 1980’s, I remember organizing clothes for the poor (not sure who it was going to) but I don’t remember ever going down to the ghettos of DC and evangelizing and praying for the homeless on the streets. If they are doing this now, bravo! Some people on this blog know I have a homeless ministry here in LA so if CLC/SGM is actually doing more local outreaches to the “least of the brethren” and doing it successfully (for me, success would equate to souls coming to Christ, not just being another social/humanitarian organization)–I definitely would like to hear more about it.
You mentioned being pregnant and your caregroup cleaning your home and making meals for you. Oh yes, I remember those days well when I was a member of CLC in the 1980’s. The lovely ladies in my CLC caregroup and the PDI staff (at that time I was also an employee of PDI, working under Larry Tomczak–of course, the moment I gave birth, I could no longer work) threw me a surprise baby shower, cooked meals for me, took turns caring for my baby and cleaning my house those first few weeks.
This pastor was asking what strengths PDI/SGM has to offer? Well, a few people here already mentioned the emphasis on community, family life, etc. I will definitely give them that. As a member of CLC for about 6 years before coming out here to LA and joining another PDI church, I’ll be honest, I was quite happy and content. CLC was the very first church I ever attended after becoming born-again at 18, getting married at 20, and then having my first child at 23. The friends I made at the church and at the PDI Office were great people who loved God, were kind and considerate, taught me so much about living the disciplined Christian life. The PDI books, magazines (my favorite section was C.J.’s “Last Word” on the last page of the magazine), teaching tapes and worship music all gave me such a great foundation for my new faith. Sure, I would hear some grumblings from time to time from former members but I remember being quickly told that I shouldn’t associate with them or I would be “contaminated” somehow by their resentful and bitter spirit. In my young mind, I honestly believed that they were just being rebellious and couldn’t understand why they didn’t just “stick to the program” and do what the pastors, who always had our best interests at heart, told us to do. They knew better after all.
But things started to change as life got harder. I had been sexually abused as a child and as a young teen-ager and I never dealt with these traumas in a healthy manner. My repressed anger started coming out in ways that shocked me and it just became harder to fit into that perfect mold of a dutiful, godly PDI wife. I was also married to a controller/abuser who started becoming more violent and physical—especially when he got fired (he was caught stealing from his employers) and (because in true PDI fashion, I was a stay-at-home mom) we could no longer pay our bills comfortably. Tensions mounted at home and became only worse when a second baby arrived. Suddenly, I was forced to keep up the act of a perfect caregroup leader-in-training’s wife on Sundays and during other church functions while all these explosive negative emotions were going on inside me. When I could no longer keep up with the charade and went to my leaders with our problems, I was repeatedly given bad advice. One pastor’s wife said, “If your husband wants you to do laundry 10 times, you do it 10 times,” insinuating it was my fault that my husband was abusive towards me and would tell me I was a “good-for-nothing” wife because I couldn’t keep up with his demands. I started to really resent the seemingly perfect, happy lives other people around me were having because I just wasn’t able to keep it together anymore. My life went out of control fast after that and as hard as I tried to remain “godly” and “spiritual,” I could no longer deny all the pain and anger that kept coming up to the surface. In the end, the only solution I could find was finally taking my children (three by this time) and leaving my husband, my church, and all my friends. One so-called friend pulled me out of worship service and looked me in the eye and said, “If you leave your husband, you will be out of God’s will forever.” Only one faithful friend stood by me when all was said and done. The pastors actually told her not to associate with me (because she was a rather new believer and they were afraid I would influence her negatively) and she had the guts to tell them, “Pia is my friend and I will talk to her whenever I want to.”
Fast forward to 2011. I have since remarried and it’s been 16 years since I started going to a different church here in LA. Some people at the SGM blog were saying things like, “There’s no such thing as a perfect church.” Well, of course. So long as we are on this side of heaven, we will always be imperfect and I do agree it is unhealthy to dwell so much on the negatives of any church because truthfully, most sincere pastors (and I believe the pastors at SGM, for the most part, are sincere) genuinely want to serve God and His people to the best of their ability and we should be able to extend grace to them as their jobs can be quite challenging and demanding. But I would say this to Dara and others who accuse us of just “nitpicking.” I don’t believe the majority of those who come to this blog just want to “nitpick” and spend hours reading the blogs, writing out carefully-thought-out responses just because we have nothing better to do. No, we are after a much higher goal. We want justice to be done after all these years.
You said this yourself in your closing line, Dara: “I know of many true stories on this blog that are true and we need to be concerned about those and be in prayer about GOD(JESUS) WILL for HIS JUSTICE ! HE is our refuge and our wonderful healer and he has died and risen so that we can have life eternal! Our hope is in him!” Amen, my sister! Amen to that. You’re right…it is indeed God’s justice that we need. We also need Him to be our refuge and we also need to look to Him to be our divine healer who gives us new hope for the future! You and I are definitely in agreement with this. I wouldn’t be here today if God hadn’t been all those things for me. I truly am in really great place right now in my life, in my walk with Him, and in my ministry unto Him and all because I did look to Him to set me free. But trust me, my healing and restoration wouldn’t have come had I stayed at SGM…at least not that way it is today.
Like you, my main concern (and the reason why I return to this blog from time to time) now is for the countless others who are in situations like the one I was in–still trapped within the SGM system and who cannot quite see their way out of their victimization (whether it’s by sexual abuse, physical abuse, domestic/child abuse, etc.). Going back to the pastor’s question about what’s wrong with SGM…well, as my story and countless others here in this blog reveals, it’s a system that will support you, encourage you, and love you so long as you “fit the mold” and you continue to conform to the SGM’s standards of perfection (which, during my time, were exemplified by Doris Tomczak and Carolyn Mahaney—women whom I idolized and tried so hard to be like). The moment you start to question anything about the system, you start to show cracks in your armor, and you are no longer able to keep up with appearances—and God forbid—you actually admit to the ugly (often violent and traumatic) realities going on in your home, all of a sudden you are on your own. And while you are already having such a hard time with your own personal life and hurting deep down inside because of the abuses—you now realize that not only are you NOT going to get the care and help you were hoping for from your CARE group leaders and pastors–you find yourself also fighting a whole perverted system that has already been firmly entrenched all these years that would more quickly defend its male perpetrators than it would protect its women and children—all in the name of the Lord.
For me, that’s what’s wrong with SGM. The question I would now like to ask Dara and this pastor is: “Do YOU think there’s hope for change in SGM?” I truly want to know your opinions.
Unassimilated,
Can you later put in writing that you revoke what you signed?
I mean, I recognize that SGM intends for it to be “from now on, amen.”
(Incidentally, I predate the membership covenant. No one asked me to sign retroactively, and I don’t think I would have.)
Hi Kris! Great and VERY accuate “Responce To The Question Of Strengths And Weaknesses…” Much of what you wrote reminds me A LOT of a poem I ran across, called “Covenental Crunch”. What do you think?
COVENANTAL CRUNCH
Covenantal, covenantal, covenantal crunch,
Judging, quenching, crowding, crushing — having you for lunch!
“Confirmation, confirmation, confirmation, please!
With our covenantal strictures you’ll be in a squeeze!
“Submit! Conform! Become like us! Soon you’ll fit our mold.
We’ll cramp out your identity in our stranglehold.
“You’re much too independent; you think you hear God well.
But if He has a word to speak, it’s the group He’ll tell!
“We’re playing by the rules we wrote; what we build will last.
We have endless meetings; you just pray and fast!
“You talk about anointing, of moving in the Lord.
Well that stuff’s not impressive. God’s not on our board!”
My brothers please do hear me. I’ve got a word for you:
If the prophets were alive, them you’d shut up too!
Paul you’d call a rebel; John Huss an arrogant man;
Luther you’d brand unteachable. He wouldn’t fit the plan!
Whitefield would be cast out; William Booth misunderstood;
“You’re breaking with our pattern! It’s not for the common good.
“Come here under our covering. Please don’t rock the boat” —
But, no, I see those tentacles, reaching for my throat!
Submission is a good word, authority a good thing —
It brings men into freedom; but what do your codes bring?
So here is my conclusion. This is what I’ve found:
Maybe you are “bonding” — but I don’t want to be bound!
ShockedCLCer said:
“A member asked Kenneth Maresco, Robin Boisvert, Grant Lahman and Mark Mitchelle if at the time the LT situation was going on and they knew the information that is out there now, would they consider CJ unfit to be a pastor? He asked those 4 because they were on staff when that happened. NOT ONE, thats right, NOT ONE of them would answer. Didn’t even reach for a microphone.(idol worship of CJ? :scratch ) Robin finally said he couldn’t say what he would have done 14 years ago because we don’t have all the facts. ”
“I think it’s been stated here several times in different ways, but I believe the root issue they are dealing with is CJ. He founded CLC and SGM. Is a member of CLC but works for SGM. And by the way SGM offices are located in the CLC building. Not only that but SGM ownes that space in the CLC building. CLC doesn’t rent the space to them, SGM ownes it! (That information came out in the second members meeting) How in the world does one seperate themselves from the founders influence if he is around every corner and they seem to give him undue defference?? ”
Thanks for sharing the other leaders’ silence about Mahaney being unfit or disqualified based on what he did. It is sad they are being silent. From what I have heard so far Josh Harris is even dancing around this issue about Mahaney being disqualified. I am sure this is hard finding out the sad actions of Mahaney who you use to look up to but I Tim 5:21 says to do this with “impartiality.” It doesn’t look like they are obeying that.
My understanding is that CLC owns the Gaithersburg building and that SGM paid a few where SGM in essence owns their portion of the CLC building they own. This is like a condo ownership arrangement with CLC being the majority owner. Links to documents that showed this were posted on this blog a while ago.
One issue I have with having Mahaney around (if that is the case) then as you point out Mahaney can be still influencing people and perhaps other pastors are fearful of acknowledging Mahaney is disqualified. After all, if these other pastors condemn Mahaney and he is going to return to power then criticizing Mahaney might cost these other pastors their jobs.
There are literally thousands of cases where suits were brought in situations where there was an arbitration clause in the contract, courts routinely ignore arbitration clauses (Perfect examples are credit cards & the mortgage industry plenty of successful cases there despite contractual agreements to arbitrate).Second the membership covenant or whatever they choose to call it would not be an enforceable contract ever. There is no consideration and thus it’s an invalid contract. Courts also routinly toss weird documents like this out the window just because it’s so incredibly one sided and full of ambiguities. The court literally wouldn’t know
what the heck the drafter of that document is really saying and ambiguities go against the drafter as a matter of law.
Lastly a person that hasn’t reach the age of majority (18 in the commonwealth)can’t sign a contract and have it enforced against him. Parents can’t “sign away” a minors right to seek judicial review. Literally a minor could petition the court for the appointment of a advocate to coordinate legal action on the minors behalf (happens in cases involving social service workers routinely). A minor has until his 25Th birthday to pursue actions for anything that occurred before reaching age 18.
SGM has zero protection from litigation because of their bizarre “you have to sign this” covenant. Most attorneys would fall over laughing at it and wouldn’t even be able to finish reading it. Believe me it’s a non-issue. If you have a valid case against an SGM church contact an attorney and pursue “restoration” through litigation. Especially if your case involves sexual assault/ abuse of you minor children. Sue them, protect all the children so this doesn’t happen again to another child. These people must be stopped and litigation tends to have that effect.
Pia said: One so-called friend pulled me out of worship service and looked me in the eye and said, “If you leave your husband, you will be out of God’s will forever.” Forever…really? Love that. I got that too! I was told if I didn’t obey my husband I was separated from God. Hahahahaha! My bible says nothing can separate me from the love of Christ…um. nothing means nothing. Not SGM. Not my husband. Not my sin. I am His…like forever! I hope they enjoy seeing me worshipping next to them before the throne one day! HAHA! Oh, and we will all face Christ one day. I hope they enjoy being confronted by Christ for making people think that His blood was somehow ineffective and insufficient; while they look at His nail scarred hands. I am just so sorry that they thought He was not enough.
Henry,
Regarding comment #1 and Janna’s “(blogging = slander = you’re a bad Christian equation),” I ventured over to the blog that
Fashionably Late mentioned in comment #416, last post. It was done by a young SGM’er and what struck me was that rather than respond with grief over all the pain and suffering this ministry has churned out over the years, this young man thought this was the time
to give a church lesson on gossip and slander. That is so very sad and telling of how this ministry has responded across the board, for years.
He mentioned pursuing a Matthew 18, who gets to decide when and how one goes about “telling the church”??? Who sets the guidelines?
The leaders you no longer trust?
Unassimilated, do you think someone could claim Undue Influence and/or Coercive Persuasion in court?
I believe the onus is on Clergy to disprove Undue Influence on the Parishioner, right?
@Hello All
Lots of good responses yet I don’t want to dominate the discussion by addressing all the points. So here are a few things I would say based on my experience with the legal system NOT my experience as a lawyer. I am definitely NOT an attorney.
I See No Way to Waive a Privileged Relationship Forever
@Luna Moth and @Unassimilated I’ve no doubt that the primary purpose of this “covenant” is enabling SGM to say you’ve waived your rights to using the secular legal system against them forever as in the example of the young man they tortured to death with whatever they had on him. No, I don’t think “torture” is too strong a word and as he was likely mentally ill in the first place, I hope I never meet the pastors that handled that situation because I would not speak to them in a loving way.
Yes, all privileged relationships, including attorney/client, exist for the sake of the client in the equation. But there is no way you can sign away your right to privilege in all circumstances for all time even if you want to. Privilege is waived on a limited basis. For example, my attorney usually wants me to sign off on any little thing (believe me) anything that might appear to be a violation of attorney/privilege because another party is involved.
Even if that were not the case, she could never argue that because Janna waived privilege 10 years about the statement she issued to the media(for example as I haven’t actually been in that level of hot water), she can talk to whomever she wants about Janna’s taxes in 2025.
@AndythePicketer – Yes the scenario seems ridiculous but
Basically I agree with you. Mandatory arbitration is one of the devil’s inventions and I work/live to see it obliterated. However, many arbitration clauses have held up literally or practically (it’s so expensive to challenge them that they may as well be legal) in many states since the Supreme Court ruled that binding arbitration is legal.
The issues at hand are complex and nebulous.
Okay, I’m leaving it at that to avoid dominating the discussion with my last salvo being the point of my post: My doesn’t SGM seem to think that it’s bound by the secular legal system regarding many issues, not just these?
Best to all – Janna
Sorry everyone. My parting salvo should have read as follows: Why doesn’t SGM seem to think that it’s NOT bound by the secular legal system regarding many issues, not just these issues?
@UnassimilatedI wouldn’t put it past them but I would pay so much to see SGM argue this in court:
“They may also argue that their disclosures or lack of disclosures are a matter of Theology, and should not be subject to the law.”
Sorry SGM leadership, the judge is not going to do a Mat. 18 pow-wow with you over who really rules the roost in secular U.S.A. 2011 anymore than he/she will refuse to grant a divorce because the Catholic Church doesn’t believe in divorce (some poor souls have apparently made this argument).
“Why doesn’t SGM seem to think that it’s NOT bound by the secular legal system regarding many issues, not just these issues?”
Because it is a moot point. Research the instances of courts siding with “churches” in any lawsuit that is not specifically “criminal” activity.
We were sued all the time. Had at least 5 lawsuits going at all times over all sorts of things. We did not even settle. Half the time they are thrown out. We paid a full time in house counsel just to handle paperwork.
Churches are much more protected legally than people think. The purpose of the lawsuit can be to embarass the church and even liberal judges will go along with that for a while but legally there has to be a criminal law violated.
Churches as a legal entitiy are not even in the same category as non profits. They have their own category.
Churches are not obliged to follow federal or state law when it comes to employment practices, how members are treated, etc. And if your state does not have mandatory reporting for sexual abuse of minors for the pastor/counselors, there is little one can do legally. There is a lot one can do to embarass them, though. These things usually end up on 20/20 or 60 minutes but you rarely see any legal wins.
An adult freely joins a church. And can freely leave.
My advice is to NEVER go to work for one. You have NO protection at all as an employee.
Regarding last night….
Because SGM has already decided to hire two different boards/panels to investigate if CJ is fit for ministry, I happen for once in my life to think the pastors’ evasive response might have been appropriate.
No matter what they think personally, a third party is being brought in to mediate and determine CJ’s future, and it isn’t really their place to give their own opinions at this point. They did agree to submit to SGM authority over the churches so they need to step back and let the two mediators do whatever it is they do. Either that, or pull out of SGM altogether!
I left SGM(then PDI) in May of 2002. It must have been about the time that new members were being asked to sign those covenants. It strikes me that it would have made sense to announce that was being done and offer existing members the option of signing. I think a lot of people (not me) would have wanted to; for good and not-so-good reasons. But, of course, if they had done that folks who were becoming disillusioned might have tried to dissuade the new draftees.
I’d be willing to bet that the new members were at times discouraged from
1. Reading the docs carefully.
2. Taking them home to consider, discuss, and pray over and were told
3. that none of those harsh scenarios were ever likely to take place but needed to be there for everyone’s protection…
…You don’t need to read the fine print, it’s just boilerplate…
Or maybe if they hesitated at all they were just told to take a hike, I mean, told that maybe PDI wasn’t the place for them.
Can anyone share an experience about this?
I don’t know how anyone is standing idly by while CJ DEMANDS the accusations against him are PROVEN by outside people. He makes a couple hundred thousand for his base salary and this panel could go up that high if it’s done how people are speculating it will be done.
This thing could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.
In this economy, why is ANYONE ok with this? The allegations, even if only the first 10 are true, are big enough that CJ should, if he’s got any ounce of humility and integrity, will just say “it’s not worth me fighting. I will step down.”
Imagine how many people a few hundred thousand dollars could help?
Now THAT would be missions! For sure!
@Matt – I Think A Lawyer Told SGM That They Better Get People to Sign Away Their Legal Rights Because What They’re Doing is so Off-The-Wall It Doesn’t Fit Into the “We’re a Church” Category of Standard Legal Arguments.
You make excellent points. As someone who wrote insurance policies for churches, I am somewhat familiar with the degree to which churches go into their own legal category. Sometimes they have special status for very good reasons, in my opinion.
However, I can’t agree that legal issues are a non issue for SGM for the following three reasons:
Your church was fine but several of the Diocese of the Catholic Church have had to declare/almost had to declare bankruptcy because of the judgments again them following their recent legal problems
1) Because SGM functions as a cult rather than a standard religious organization, some of the more horrific things they do may preclude the usual “this is a church” legal arguments.
It’s a stretch in the U.S.A., but in the same way that Germany considers Scientology a pyramid-scheme rather than a real religion, someone could argue that SGM is so off the wall/unlike other religious institutions that it really shouldn’t be classified as a church.
2) If legal issues are a non issue, why did SGM come up with a long list of “covenants” (that are also not standard for real churches) for people to sign in 2001? Their business practices don’t seem to have changed around then.
My guess is they had legal counsel that told them, “Holy Cow, if you want act like this you need to protect yourself by trying to get as many people as possible to sign away as many legal rights as possible.
Thanks for making me think, Matt..and everyone here!
I was at CFC in Glen Mills for 10 years and had both good and bad experiences. I became a believer there and drank the kool-aid for a long time. I left in September of 2010 to join a church plant of another denomination. The list re-posted by Kris from “Not Again” is probably the must accurate list that I have ever seen regarding SGM. I would love to see that addressed by the SGM board. One of my biggest gripes is the unwillingness to plant a church in even a middle to lower middle class area which was why I left. I don’t believe that many of these things will be addressed because I do not believe that the SGM board is able to see themselves as being wrong in many of these areas. There are a lot of good people in SGM and I pray that God brings the necessary changes about. They need to realize that this is all for God’s glory and not theirs (or ours).
We started going to Covenant Fullofit in 1984 and were grandfathered into membership.
I surely did not sign a legal document.
Sounds like they’re playing Jedi mind tricks (these are not the droids you’re looking for) Wave the and around.. Sign the nice document…you want to *read* it first?
hmmm, not weak-minded….we’re releasing you….out the airlock..
Just my take.
One of the things that strikes me as sad about the business of hounding, I mean, pursuing people to other churches, is that there are in fact many, many churches that would have gladly provided a refuge. My sister,new poster Historian, is Presbyterian. I have heard a lot about her pastor, met him, and spoken with him. I asked her what he would do if he received that type of information about someone. She said he would probably laugh out loud (at the gall and the absurdity,NOT because he doesn’t take leading his church seriously.) From my observation, he would certainly question the motives of the previous church and would most certainly seek out the other side of the story. His motivation would be to help the refugees. And I think that many other pastors would respond similarly.
I wonder what others think about this?
Matt said, “Churches as a legal entitiy are not even in the same category as non profits. They have their own category.”
Unassimilated (or whoever knows the answer to this), is SGM legally a church? Something made me think it is not. Would this effect Matt’s comments? Meaning, would it be easier for them to be sued or for courts not to look so favorably on them if they did NOT file as a church?
Stunned,
According to the Articles of Incorporation, which can be found by a simple google search here: http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/UCC-Charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=B%2000363&Folio=0094&Pages=0003&Date=04%2001%202002&Ack=1000361986842726&Domain=Charter&ID=D06734453&Name=COVENANT%20LIFE%20CHURCH,%20INC.&source=1
Covenant Life is actually “Non stock, Not religious” and Article 2 lets us know this: “The name of the corporation is Covenant Life Church of Maryland, Inc, herein after referred to as ‘the Corporation.'”
I don’t know what this means.
Sidney
Hmmm, so it’s not a religious organization? Does anyone know if this would be interesting to the courts if they get taken to court? (In other words, will this affect how they can present themselves and not allow them to argue, “We’re a church?”)
Thanks, Sidney!
Frankly, if the Lord uses this to remove CJ, and forces major changes on Harvey and the rest, and expsoes SGM more clearly to the Gospel Coalition, I will consider it hundereds of thousands well spent. (although I had no idea the figures were so high and it does bring a certain visceral gut revulsion to think of the waste of money because CJ and the board will not just resign).
Janna, NLR, Mr. Veitch:
I cut and pasted this from the “Read before you post” page of this site:
“But again, the site’s main purpose is a place of support and information for those who have had bad SGM experiences or are wondering about some of the things they are seeing in their exploration of SGM. If you are not having a bad SGM experience, or are not experiencing confusion about SGM, then you very likely won’t “get it.”
In light of this, I have to ask; why do you keep posting here? If this is a site for “Survivors” of SGM, and you’ve never been a part of SGM why do you feel compelled to be heard? There are many current and former members of SGM churches who genuinely have a dog in this fight, and I think it might be confusing for them to hear you go on about this, when you have never even been a part of it.
Chuck 2.0
I like this post over at BatteredSheep: http://www.batteredsheep.com/church-speak.html
Check it out.
Chuck, yes, this site is for people who have been through an SGM experience. And as one, I am very grateful that God has sent “others” who have not been through the same church system to help give us perspective. Praise God for these saints who care enough about the hurting and the lost to step outside of their box to love us. Isn’t that a great thing?
Chuck,
I think SGM outsiders can provide an interesting perspective and add to the discussion. I consider myself somewhat of an SGM outsider…who never had a dog in the fight until I began to interact with so many who had been harmed by SGM’s unique ideas about “the gospel.”
That being said – well, I do hear you. I think it’s a good idea for those who have never been part of SGM or have no close personal connections to SGM to keep in mind that for most of the people who read here, this stuff IS deeply personal. I know for many it has been very personal AND very painful over the past couple of weeks. And very confusing.
Sometimes our comments – those written from our “armchair sociologist’s” perspective – can be kind of meaningless to those who actually have firsthand knowledge of this stuff.
Hello Chuck 2.0
I’m going to be very direct with you. If this is SGM’s attempt to get rid of me, I say, nice try! Actually it’s a pathetic try and my biggest disappointment in dealing with SGM is that all I get from you guys are low balls. Thank God Dr. Mohler is one of the smartest people on the planet and I get to take a break by reading his take on some of the issues discussed on this board.
I’m never going to go away and you don’t have a file on me, and I wouldn’t care if you did. I feel called to actively support abused former members of SGM in many ways, one of which is online advocacy. You’re not fighting me, my dears. You’re fighting God working through me and not only do I have a dog in this fight, I’m the well-behaved Pit Bull in this fight. You have no idea how much restraint I’m showing in not immediately exposing you to the world because I don’t think that’s in the best interest of the people here.
Mr. Chuck: Everyone here but you supports me in this endeavor and does not appear to be distrustful or confused by my motives or postings.
If I’m wrong about your motives, and your “out of the blue” inquiry is genuine even though you haven’t asked the dozens of other regular posters here why they’re here/about their SGM background, etc., then I…can’t even apologize seriously for my distrust. I can only beg you to see where I’m coming from in light of all the support I’ve gotten, that you apparently haven’t seen despite your interest in me personally, from the community here.
I’ll have to let Kris and Guy be the final say on who gets to post here but please let me highlight parts of the statement you quoted:
“But again, the site’s main purpose is a place of support and information for those who have had bad SGM experiences or are wondering about some of the things they are seeing in their exploration of SGM. If you are not having a bad SGM experience, or are not experiencing confusion about SGM, then you very likely won’t “get it.”
Kris and Guy: do I get it? Can I stay?
Thanks!
5 Years #22 You said:
I understand your point and think it has merit. But why couldn’t the pastors have said, with full openness, “We don’t want to comment about…” or “Our attorney’s have advised us to withhold comment about…”
What’s the point of being evasive instead of simply being honest?
Perhaps the Godly trait of honesty was traded in long ago (because the sheep who supported the system with their tithes and offerings didn’t “deserve” to know the truth?) (because knowledge is power and the one with the most knowledge holds the power?) in favor of the SGM machine.
It sure is troubling that grown men whose livelihoods include speeches in pulpits, can’t communicate the plain simple truth. It’s like that idea never even crossed their minds. :scratch
5 years…I totally agree. It gives me that same “visceral gut revulsion” when I think about both….CJ leaving quietly without any exposure of the bigger horrible picture. And…all that money being blown.
There is no good answer. And there is probably no good end. Any way you look at it.
Who was here awhile talking about CJ and Larry’s spiritual leader at the time giving them “counsel” about starting a church when they did? I want to hear that story again. Does anyone remember which thread it was on?
Janna,
I have really appreciated many of your observations. And of course you’re welcome to continue to post here.
But I think you’re way off base with what you wrote to Chuck. And, I will confess to only glancing over some of your lengthier posts, as you have to admit that you DON’T have any firsthand emotional connections to SGM or a personal SGM experience.
I’m cool with playing “armchair sociologist” – I tend to come at the topic of SGM like that myself a lot of the time. But I wish that all the folks who have never been directly connected to SGM would be especially sensitive right now to the fact that most of those reading here DO have those personal and emotional connections. Many folks – particularly those who are silently lurking – have been deeply affected by the events of the past few weeks…affected on a PERSONAL level. It can be off-putting for them to read lengthy comments from mere observers who are weighing in with such authority about stuff that they’ve never even dealt with firsthand.
If you’re REALLY an advocate for those who have been harmed by SGM, then make a special effort these days to extend grace and understanding to readers like Chuck. And maybe if you’re finding yourself posting many multi-paragraph comments in a single day, you might want to re-evaluate whether you’re truly helping those who are hurting, or adding to their angst.
Again – you are absolutely welcome to continue to post. But I would ask ANYONE who has not had a firsthand experience with SGM or some other close connection to the organization to be considerate of those who are (or have been) actual members. As Chuck said, they have a lot more invested…and this site is primarily for them.
Janna-
Are you saying you know who Chuck 2.0 is…..I’m a little confused about your post and your comment about Mohler….are you saying you admire him or are you being sarcastic?
:scratch
Chuck–
Really? Eh? Dude, are you serious? Usually I’d give a person like you the hand because seriously, your question is totally irrelevant and asinine. You wish to bring up who has a dog in a fight, rather than the content of their posts? So you pick on whether I have a right to comment, rather than seeing my support, encouragement, and sharing in my own story of spiritual abuse (within the Neo-Reformed group of churches with which your organization belongs) rather than choosing to focus on what I am adding to the conversation? Let me school you for a second, Bruh.
If after two months of my participating on this site and speaking of my related experience with my SGM-in-friendly-cooperation-church, and having many similar experiences, and having witnessed many cult-like behaviors, and having acknowledged my ex-pastor’s friendship, cooperation with, and partnering with CJ, you would need to question why I am here then I’d say you were either (1) blind; (2) ignorant; (3) lazy (because you obviously haven’t done your homework), (4) arrogant, or (5) any combination of the above. You have simply tossed your red herring over the line looking for someone to pick it up. Yet, I have thrown it back at you. It’s worthless. It stinks. It’s irrelevant.
This is a community of believers who have experienced abuse at the hands of the church. Is your mind that small that you cannot see the larger picture here? It shouldn’t matter whether a person has been a member of SGM or not (and it should qualify that I was a frequent visitor and considering to join your “church” for several months when I had recognized the very things here people are talking about and many of them at my local SGM-friendly church).
Many people here have written me personally, or have commented on this forum about the relevance, veracity and insight I have within this organization. I think THAT is what should concern you–whether my statements, and the content therein is relevant to the discussion and adds to the discussion. It should concern you that a mere outsider could go to your church for two months and see all this crap as plain as day. It should concern you that I hightailed it in the other direction. It should concern you that there are other churches who participate with your church who show these same cultish behaviors that aren’t specifically SGM churches, but are yet, all in friendly-cooperation with one another. It should concern you that the batch is growing entirely moldy and poisonous for consumption. And just so you know, I have not only have received much healing from participating here, much understanding, much knowlege about who God really is, but I am sure that I have also made my fair contributions that have provided comfort, healing, support, knowledge and confirmation to others who see the same things that I have been learning.
Do we have to be bit by the same dog for our wounds to even matter? For our contribution and discussion of our bites to be relevant and appropriate? Can’t we see that both dogs are related, they come from the same family, and although one bites a little harder, the victims or those who are hurt can identify that these dogs are related and the bites sting and hurt just as much?
The answer to your question should have been most obvious. Clearly, you’re looking for a leg to stand on regarding your argument, and I think you have chosen a weak one. Is this a red herring or what?! I never believed it when people say that some questions are too stupid to ask. I think you have proven that wrong. You should have kept that to yourself and simply have thought about that more and have done your homework. And if I seem defensive to you and unkind, IT’S BECAUSE I AM! I dont have a problem being a mad, defensive, tell-it-like it is Christian. I will set you straight. I will challenge you. I will get up in your face.
I challenge you to go through this site from the beginning of my posts and I would dare you to find at least 3 statements that I have made about your organization to be untrue! The burden of proof is on you, buddy. Not me. I have made my case clearly and have too many others here who could support my findings to be true. Again, you have chosen to focus on the wrong argument, rather than focusing on the fact that what I have shared with others, and how I have supported them is what matters, and that I would know these things about your organization by being a mere but frequent visitor.
Please go waste somebody else’s time with this froggle BS.
I find you laughable. Unfortunately, I cannot get back the last 3 minutes of my time that you have needed me to pet your ego or help you use your own brain.
Deuces.
Remnant…..if it was me, I would do exactly what you said, and just tell the congregation that the pastors have decided to wait for results of the investigation.
Of course CJ was unfit back then with the blackmail of LT, they know it and they know we know it, and they know that we know that they know it. But it is fair all around to have an independent evaluation and decision. I am sure scores of men who got degifted and removed wished at the time they had had an outside evaluation too; things might have gone differently for many of them.
But on the other hand, we have no idea what they are saying in private. We do do know that Josh resigned from the board, they are all submitted to Josh (right?) and Josh said that the problem is bigger than CJ, it is pervasive in SGM. And maybe Josh will pull out if the panels exonerate CJ and the rest?
The pastors are all outwardly supportive of Josh, right?…as opposed to saying they agree with Harvey and the board. That’s good so far. It must be a very wierd position to manuever and none of them want to lose their job. They may just be waiting to see if they should stay with Josh, or, break rank with Josh, be loyal to the board, and get repositioned in other churches by Harvey. A lot depends on the evaluation. So they need to wait for their own jobs too.
I am so cynical I tend to think the whole thing should be dismantled to the very bottom, and they have all been corrupted. But Josh is saying some promising things and so far they are supporting him, so I want to extend grace for now towards their evasiveness, even if it does look a bit suspect. Don’t worry, a year from now there will be much more clarity, I am sure of that!
Glad to be out.
@Kris – thanks for the correction. If I was wrong about Chuck, I’m sorry. I accept and understand your perspective wholeheartedly. Let me say that in addition to posting here I’m doing some off-line and online work to help overturn the clergy privilege law in VA and 12 other states that makes it hard for clergy-people to report people who are abusing members of their congregation without being sued by the alleged perpetrator for violating his/her confidentiality.
Respecting a personal connection, I have come to befriend some SGM folks outside the context of this blog who have been badly hurt so it feels like I have a personal connection to the issues at hand even though I wasn’t raped, molested, etc. These people don’t feel like friends, they feel like family.
I’m not just doing that for the people here but all people affected by such things.
Perhaps I’m being paranoid but some groups, not just SGM, don’t appear to like what I’m doing and appear to be fishing for info about me. That’s fine, it just gets wearisome sometimes and it appears I judged hastily and/or took some bait I shouldn’t have taken.
As for helping people here rather than hurting them, I took the positive feedback I’ve been getting to mean that I was helping rather than being a nuisance in any way.
But I’ll step back and get a little perspective. That never hurts.
@Musicman – please don’t worry about my Mohler comment. It’s not biggie.
Best to all – it’s a privilege to help in any way I can, and I remain dedicated to the cause above irrespective of SGM or anything that’s said on this blog.
Okey doke….Chuck 2.0. We have had several conversations…and you and I do not agree on lots o’ things. And we’re fine with that.
But regarding your comment up above, for me, as an ex member of SGM, over the weekend when the conversation was lengthy and involved only a couple people, I skipped all of those comments. Why? Not because I don’t think those folks have valid concerns or cares. But, because I can’t follow…I only know/knew what I experienced at SGM. It doesn’t pertain and it’s too much to work through when I’m trying to work through my SGM experience.
Sooo…Chuck…you did a great job approaching folks with kindness, patience and grace. I appreciate that. And thank you for speaking up defending the “survivors.” You’re a pretty levelheaded guy (most of the time) :) and I appreciate that demonstration.
I agree with Kris, though. Many of us emotional capacity is at “tilt” right now and it would be so helpful if the conversation was kept to topics pertaining to SGM and SGM folk experiences.
Thanks Chuck. Thanks Kris.
“Your church was fine but several of the Diocese of the Catholic Church have had to declare/almost had to declare bankruptcy because of the judgments again them following their recent legal problems
”
Because of their structure. Believe me when I tell you tht many protestant churches looked at that situation very closely and talked to many lawyers about it.
And structure was the main reason they were able to sue the “organization” and the fact that sexual molestation was committed by the clergy. If you can prove that at SGM, you have a case.
But the problem is denomination/family of churches. There is the look of autonomy (even if not true in practice) from a legal standpoint. Believe me, itis one reason few churches will discipline this sort of thing publicly. And this is wrong. But they think admitting this publicly will bring on lawsuits. (backward thinking for believers but there you are)
“1) Because SGM functions as a cult rather than a standard religious organization, some of the more horrific things they do may preclude the usual “this is a church” legal arguments.
The law is not meant to protect us from our own stupidity. One of is getting involved in cults. The best way I have found in dealing with such places as SGM is the blogs. Tell your stories. Get the word out. Warn others: This is not Christianity.
“It’s a stretch in the U.S.A., but in the same way that Germany considers Scientology a pyramid-scheme rather than a real religion, someone could argue that SGM is so off the wall/unlike other religious institutions that it really shouldn’t be classified as a church.”
German government collects the tithe for the official church in Germany and distributes it to them. I am not sure they have any credibility in this matter.
So, in America, you really want to go to court over what is a real “religion”? Big problem there, mainly because Christianity is NOT a religion. It is a relationship and that is a huge distinction.
I would love to argue that Islam is not a real religion and should be outlawed as Sharia law is incompatible with the constitution. And Islam is incomplete without Sharia law if one believes the Koran. You think it would fly in our court system? :o).
“2) If legal issues are a non issue, why did SGM come up with a long list of “covenants” (that are also not standard for real churches) for people to sign in 2001? Their business practices don’t seem to have changed around then. ”
Saddleback has had a membership covenant for many years. We had something they signed after a new member class on what we believe. This has been done for many years…mostly since the rise of the megas which is about 30 years now.
Most megas do this for one reason. To shut you up in the future if need be. So, if you do disagree or question, they can point to the covenant YOU signed. Does not matter what the issue is since they get to decide what is proper disagreement and what isn’t. They have all the moral authority and you handed it to them by signing something.
There is always something in them about Matt 18 which everyone interprets wrong when it comes to leadership. This way, leaders keep the moral authority on HOW something is to be handled. And you signed the covenant.
Pia – thanks for sharing some of your story and your input to us. Christians can get focused on themselves and forget about the poor so thank you. There is a chance that we may have met in Pasadena. Che and Lou were good friends and we were through Pasadena often.
Shocked – I was thinking about your report on the Sunday night meeting at CLC. Just wanted to share a couple of observations from a long way away from Jerusalem (2298 miles according to google :D )
Josh and the staff have made some major stands against the SGM way of doing business and the decisions that have been made. Josh stepped off the board for several reasons of which the primary one is to focus on CLC. He seems to be very open to bringing things into the light, answering questions, making apologies, open repentance, etc. I realize I could be hearing and seeing what I want to hear and see because of the intensity in which I desire to see SGM reform from the top down and bottom up. The people of God are worth the pain of reform and to those of us pressing from the outside.
As I was thinking (for those in the peanut gallery – yes I do think once in awhile and not just run my mouth :mic ), I remembered that when I left PDI, it took three years just to detox from the PDI language, thought processes, decision making, who I was in Jesus, why was I on this planet, how was I supposed to live, His church, His kingdom, His righteousness, etc. etc. (and I was a rebel – so I was already thinking differently before I left) Even now 15 years later, I have to be very careful how I communicate and how I respond to circumstances and people because of the affects of PDI.
It does seem to me, the CLC staff is trying to do the right things, say the right things, and hear people in a different way and put in place a new way of conducting the business of the church. They have had decades of PDI/SGM indoctrination and culture so it isn’t going to happen quickly. I would submit to the brethren at CLC, that you will need to be patient with the process (if you stay). If these men are serious with what they have said, it is going to take some time to see the church, themselves, and the world differently. To those who can’t be patient, it will be extremely frustrating to you.
I would also say those that have been part of SGM/CLC for many years, you also are in a new place of seeing, understanding and have a platform to speak to the leaders in a way that no SGM church has been able to do. Josh does seem to be a man of a different spirit but he has been under CJ’s tutelage for many years. So if I can be encouraging, I think everyone at CLC is learning to live a new way within an new SGM context (which no one knows what it is going to look like). If I could simplify this way – there are two options 1- shut it down and help people find another local church 2 – Remodel; reinforce the foundation on Jesus Christ, tear down some walls, rebuild, re-tool, re-train, etc. etc.
Having been involved with both situations, I would say the first option is the easiest. The question is what is the Lord Jesus’ plan for CLC? How the leaders and church walk it out will tell. I do believe that what happens at CLC will have a far reaching influence with other SGM churches. You all have my prayers and support either way.
For what it is worth . . .
I never ‘became’ a member, nor signed one thing. They just put me in as a member, (grandfathered in) as they did with DB. Even now, from what I have understood by some SGM friends who joined recently, not all SGM churches havethis huge legal document. Therefore, not everyone has signed away those rights.
Kris–
Thank you for that post. I keep that in mind. But I wanted to stress here that I, too, am part of the hurting wounded by a very similar system of spiritual abuse. That my ex-church is in friendly cooperation with and exhibits many of the same unhealthy practices as SGM… That I, too, have witnessed these behaviors and issues personally as a frequent visitor considering membership at two different SGM churches and I ran as fast as I could. That I am trying, along with others wounded by the church, to figure out what happened to me, why and sort through these experiences and resultant emotions, affects, etc…
In the past, I have gone off topic a time or two. I agree with your position on that.
I disagree with Sidney that Chuck presented his question with grace and patience and all that. I think he could have worded it entirely different and gotten a less defensive answer. As well, if that he a major concern, then it should have been an issue all along where I have seen people post here frequently that have not been member at SGM. Why not have questioned them all?
Chuck,
I, for one, appreciate all the posts of the “non-sgm-members”.
YOU do NOT speak for me.