“SGMnot’s” Response
August 16, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Kris says: What follows is “SGMnot’s” response to GS’s message from last week.
To: GS and all the pastors at Covenant Life Church
Greg, I want to thank you for taking the step to be open and post on this public blog in relation to the past mishandled sex abuse cases discussed here. You have taken a great step to reach out to the hurt, angry, and disenfranchised people who have been in the past “discarded” by various SGM churches, as well as, those who patently disagree with various aspects of SGM’s doctrine and practices. My husband, daughter and I have discussed this entire situation at length and have decided not to call you in relation to the tragedy that occurred in our family. We are no longer CLC members and we wish to move on with our lives, serving God elsewhere. This is particularly true for our daughter. However, I did want to write a response to you openly on SGMsurvivors.
Your blog post appears, on first reading, an apology of sorts, and yet it is not. A number of commenters gave you a huge benefit of the doubt on that. I had not made it known publically before that John Loftness and Gary Ricucci were the pastors involved in our sex abuse case, but you as a pastoral staff most assuredly knew that. [These were the same pastors who 6 years earlier had been involved in exCLCer’s case] Both of these men have since then been promoted within SGM ranks. JL is a Senior Pastor and on the SGM Board and GR is a “SGM Pastor”. To send an email from yourself and “on behalf of the pastors of Covenant Life Church,” while it may be heartfelt, gave the false impression that there had been some sort of conviction of wrong doing by the pastors involved in these sex abuse cases. Nowhere in this email is an actual apology of the errors in judgment by these pastors.
You desire to talk to us, saying, “I want to make sure our pastoral team learns all we can from your experience so that we can better serve other families in the future,” and I’m glad that you do, however, I am sure that you can read between the lines of the various sex abuse stories and the resulting blog comments from hundreds of people and figure it out. You don’t need to talk to us. I would encourage you, though, to discuss an appropriate policy for handling sex abuse cases with professionals that deal specifically with sex abuse victims.
I agree with Kris’s comment #104 on 8/12:
“I would also encourage Mr. Somerville to step outside his SGM box and look at the larger picture. As he thinks about exCLCer’s and SGMnot’s stories, he needs to realize that the harsh and hard-hearted responses of the pastors involved in those situations have much broader root causes. He needs to understand that there is a much MUCH bigger problem beneath the surface than just two (or a half-dozen or however many) badly handled cases of sexual abuse….while I believe that yes, it is important for SGM/CLC pastors to reach out to all victims of specific situations, I actually think it is just as important for these pastors to examine the trends. Examine the root causes. Examine what it is about what their organization has trained them to believe what enabled these horrific things to happen in the first place.”
I believe many of the critical bloggers and commenters in the blogosphere have clearly communicated what these root causes are and there is much to be learned from critics.
Instead of calling you privately, I would like to ask some pointed questions publically, that summarize what I believe are the crux of the pastoral mishandling of our cases. And I would like to encourage you, or better yet JL and GR, to post responses on this blog. I believe that this will help in the healing process of all those hurt and abused in the midst of these sex abuse cases:
- What were the reasons that CLC pastors felt they had the authority and right to interject themselves into the legal system, as it dealt with the crime of child sex abuse, and to try to negate or minimize the appropriate sentencing for those crimes by asking victims’ parents to delay or not call the police and to ask parents’ of victims to advocate for the perpetrators by letters or statements asking for leniency? (This was, particularly egregious, in regards to exCLCer’s stepfather’s crime of child molestation of her sister of approximately 4 years!)
. - When JL counseled us “don’t call the police”, after he ALREADY had directly pastored another family in the midst of a sex abuse case and DEFINITELY knew that the law required us to do so, AND that it would be in the best interest of our daughter and other possible victims, why did he do that and has he been censored/disciplined through his employers, SRC/SGM?
. - Why did JL instruct us to tell no one, not even our Care Group, close family, and even close friends living with us? Did they consider the privacy of the perpetrator and his family as more important than the crisis that we were going through? Or was the secrecy because they were more concerned with the reputation of CLC than our emotional and psychological needs? In both cases, why wasn’t the embarrassment and shame of others knowing about these crimes part of the NATURAL CONSEQUENCES of committing such a crime?
. - Were there any direct funds or donations from SGM or CLC paid for the legal fees of either perpetrator or their family during these court cases? And if so, will you make financial restitution to the victims and their families, in particular, to the children of exCLCer’s family for any psychological counseling that they have needed from the sexual molestation or the errors in judgment by the pastors handling these cases?
. - What was the length of time between the discovery of sin, which was deemed serious enough to excommunicate a woman with 9 children and no viable source of income, whose child had recently been a victim of such a horrible, longstanding sexual molestation by a church member, and the time in which she was asked to leave? Why was there not a LONG season of longsuffering for this woman and her children? And was there any impropriety in the decision to excommunicate her, because she had dared to not agree to your counsel or so that the perp’s identity would be protected?
. - Why was the ENTIRE church of approximately 1000 members at that time, a church supposedly built upon the practicing the “One Anothers” of scripture, not allowed the opportunity to serve and care for all these children rather than having them placed in a often-flawed, secular foster system? Thus, multiplying many times over the re-victimization of these children and destroying in the process any faith or trust that some of them had in God?!
. - Why did JL and GR not answer the confrontive letters and emails that exCLCer sent them each year on the anniversary date of her family being thrown out of the church? How could they turn a deaf ear to her cries for justice, year after year, until finally this past summer when a male member of CLC inquired about her case? She has more heart and passion than many who call themselves Christians!!
. - After reading our case stories and the resulting outrage online, do you as a pastoral team understand clearly what child molestation is, so that this crime will not be minimized by calling it “teenage experimentation”, or in exCLCer’s case “attraction of the woman that she was becoming” or some other excuse. And will you create a written, zero-tolerance policy that will specifically support victims and their families with follow-up counseling, as needed, AND clearly protect other possible victims in the church family as the primary goals VS. emphasizing the care, legal advocacy, and privacy of the perpetrators?
It is my hope that through this very painful discipline of the Holy Spirit that CLC and SGM, at large, are experiencing will bear fruit and bring about a deeper understanding and practice of the love of God. I believe that the failures of CLC’s pastoral team in caring for sex abuse cases have become public as part of that discipline. As the other cases posted and referred to on SGMsurvivors testify, this mishandling of sex abuse cases has been a pervasive pattern within SGM. And it is my hope that this entire family of churches will decisively deal with this grievous pattern and the underlying root causes of wrong theological emphases, and put an end to it.
In conclusion, I would urge the pastors of CLC and SGM to not discount the criticisms and opinions of people commenting on this and other related blogs. I am sure that it is very difficult to hear strong words, sometimes communicated in anger or frustration. There is much to learn from those who have passion and take the time to express their thoughts. Also, I believe that the biblical step of a clear, detailed repentance is in order from JL and GR, even though all the victims and family members appear to not want to hear it. This blog would be a good format to do that in, since some of the family members from these cases, at this time, will not set foot in a church building!
May God continue to work in each of our lives,
SgmNot
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
It would seem that, during this season of life in CLC and SGM; and in particular, the handing of cases involving the reported mistreatment of children, that outside publications/teaching in youth ministry might cease. Apparently, it is not possible to stop the publishing, video production, speaking circuit money generator long enough to simply be pastors to the church. Just this week, the following product was hawked to pastors and others:
http://www.bluefishtv.com/Store/Youth_Group_Video_Bible_Studies/5359/_Dug_Down_Deep_featuring_Joshua_Harris
The bio on this website still highlights “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” as his “runaway best seller”. Does it ever stop?
Here is the bio from this sales website:
Joshua Harris
Pastor & Author
Covenant Life Church
Joshua Harris has been serving as the senior pastor of Covenant Life in Gaithersburg, since 2004. He is a gifted speaker with a passion for making theological truth easy to understand.
Joshua is perhaps best known for his run-away bestseller, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, which he wrote at the age of twenty-one. His later books include Boy Meets Girl, Sex Is Not the Problem (Lust Is), and Stop Dating the Church. His newest book is Dug Down Deep and is his own story of learning to build his life on the truth about God.
The founder of the NEXT conferences for young adults, Joshua is committed to seeing the gospel transferred to a new generation of Christian.
Joshua and his wife, Shannon, live in Maryland with their three children.
Website: http://www.joshharris.com
SgmNot, I applaud you for your stand!
John Lofthouse and Gary Riccuici, you have a chance here to earn some trust back. What will you do? Your silence over all these years shows your hearts….
In response to Josh’s message on Sunday (which I heard too) someone commented here that Josh is acting in a way that merits trust.
John and Gary (and CJ) this is your time to do something to merit trust. We are waiting…… 8O
I missed getting this on the last thread. A bit off topic but I wanted to reply to Joe.
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SGM not…that was soooooooo excellent! Thank you.
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Joe P-
Thank you for your response and imput. And of course this is a public forum and anybody can bring up whoever they like. I have spent time in liturgical confessional Presbyterianism which I deeply appreciate. I’m not one to kneel to the BCO, but I do appreciate “5 centuries ironing out ecclesiastical controversies in the church courts where accountability is (typically) held in high regard,”.
I don’t know how much you’ve read here over the years but my point in what I quoted from Hart has nothing to do really with “Machen’s Warrior children” and worship wars, or RSClark wanting us to recover confessions or Hart on history or even polity.
My personal concern, which may differ from Donald or you or Hart or others who have not actually lived within the SGM system, and the hard to describe atmosphere and vibes therein, is that multitudes of people have experienced it and come out wanting nothing to do with Calvinism or Reformed doctrine because of their experience. And I for one think CJ/SGM is so far from what the great Reformers truly taught and understood when it comes to rejoicing with great joy, and grace, that I cringe when I see them representing nationwide what it means to supposedly be Reformed and continuationist/charismatic/non cessationist in a Grudemite sort of way.
The first great Awakening had Edwards and Whitefield as major influences, and opposite them doctrinally was John Wesley (Charles too, for 10 years, but he repented later) and his doctrines of perfectionism and sinlessness in this life. Of course there was going to be teaching on indwelling sin to counteract the doctrine of sinless perfection. But what does SGM pull out of that time? Edwards on joy and rejoicing and the glory of God? No, endless sin sniffing and indwelling sin.
John Owen’s book Sin and Temptation is FULL of exhortations to meditate on what Christ did and fix your eyes on him. You are forgiven, it is washed away. So what does SGM pull out? Yup, look at your sin and nothing but your sin. Fixate on sin.
It drives me crazy to watch the way they mangle the Puritans and Reformed history (probably because they know so little of it). It drives me crazy because people know something is wrong somewhere and end up rejecting what they think is Reformed doctrine, when Reformed doctrine is not the problem.
Joe, right now the struggling SGMers do not need a guy who claims “A jealous God is not one whose presence is welcoming and friendly”. He is wrong, for one thing. God does welcome us with open arms into his very presence. Try studying the attributes of God today in an ST, and don’t pick out one attribute and drop all the rest. We can draw near. He has called us friends. We are the bride. We delight in Him. He loves us. We are his own adopted children.
Slanderous to compare him to CJ? Well, I didn’t mean it as an authoritarian tyrant in his leadership role, so I will clarify that right now. I did mean it as failing to represent God to the people as a God of unspeakable grace who invites us into His glorious welcoming presence. Do the SGM pastors do that? Do you get that out of the documents reflecting the leadership at the top and how they relate? No. Do they teach that God in the churches? Maybe some of them, but many don’t. It is rigid legalism and and graceless accusation with many pastors.
Now you and I both know Frame and Hart go way back with the sniping, and maybe Hart was just being cantankerous that day. But he should issue a retraction. You can be reverent and sober in the presence of a welcoming friendly God. The problem with SGM is not lack of confessions or a BCO, or even completely polity, popish as it is. The problem is/was shepherding doctrines and the arrogance and control and ego of the authorities. They have no grasp of the priesthood of all believers, one of the hallmarks of the Reformation.
There are plenty of people out there whose blogs may be worth quoting, but I stand by my original concern. If Donald is going to try to bring Hart into this, he is making a huge mistake that does not help SGMers, ex SG
Mers, or lend credibility to his points. My opinion. Thanks for joining us.
Wow! That is one of the best responses I have ever read on a blog in my entire life! It was extraordinarily gracious, well thought out and to the point.
SGM & CLC needs to publically address each and every single question you asked. Some of them need to be answered directly by John and Gary.
My hope is that SGM/CLC does the right thing. I am almost certain that CLC will. I am almost certain that the SGM board will not. Sorry … the board just doesn’t get it.
SGMnot–
Thank you. This was a brilliant, thoughtful, gracious, open-handed response. You really got to the heart of it: The SGM practice of sinning against others demands a response of more than cries of mea culpa. It requires a response of faith acting in love toward those who’ve been sinned against. Love and “care” will be received as love and care when they decide to cut the Phariseeism and produce tangible fruit in keeping with repentance (see Mt. 3 or Lk. 3).
“Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.” I John 3:18
@PDI Past #1 – This was likely done by his publishing company and obviously an outside production company awhile ago. I highly doubt Josh is off shooting videos and creating new materials right now. This kind of stuff takes time to create and the video production part likely occurred long ago.
One of the reasons Josh said he was stepping down from the board at SGM is to focus all of his attention on the areas that needed addressing at CLC.
SGMnot –
Outstanding post! :word :clap
Former SG Pastor
This is a great opportunity for SGM to change direction. An actual public responce would be huge BUT can you imagine a public responce on their own blog ? 8O and can you all imagine a public responce from SGM that is totally devoid of koolaid or the usual “SGM words” :clap
anSGMmember #6 – You are absolutely correct. Clearly Mr. Harris did not leave CLC to produce this video (or the other products distributed by the production company) at this point in time. This annoyance came simply from my shock at receiving the advertisement this AM in my email box. Knowing what has come to light with CLC and SGM (and the experience that my family had with PDI/FCC), any advertising that trades upon the (uninformed) public reputation of any current or former member of SGM leadership staff as having positive insight into any form of youth ministry seems wrong.
SGMnot – What an excellent, well-considered response. Reading your story left me deeply sad, but unfortunately not surprised. The entire overarching leadership value embraced by many PDI/SGM leaders has been ministry to the compliant tithers . . . and special measures of grace and recognition to the very compliant and very financially generous. Should even the “flavor of the month” shiny clean SGM member become “troublesome” and begin to ask questions, they will plummet from SGM grace, be isolated and deleted.
I am hopeful that your clear communication will used by God to bring a deep sense of sorrow and brokenness to leaders of SGM and it’s subsidiary money machines. God is able – if they are willing.
SGMnot ~
Simply brilliant. You have many standing behind you. The Lord will hear the outcry of His beloved.
5 Years inPDI,
My name is Jed BTW, but you can call me Joe if you like! Anyway, I am very familiar with more charismatic forms of worship, and while I choose to worship differently, and I am glad that there are Presbys that fight to keep our liturgical forms, I also realize that there is a place for the forms seen at SGM churches. So I am not here saying that ex-SGMers must all become Old School Presbyterians.
However, what a strong church polity does do is check pastoral authority, limiting the power and influence one man can wield. I am saddened that one man basically ran the show, and hurt so many. Obviously there are structural issues to consider here, but what is so striking is how glaring the abuse and dereliction of pastoral responsibilities were in SGM, and how badly people were damaged in the process.
Since I am using my real name here, I won’t name names, but I was close to some similar cases of sexual abuse in the church I was raised in. Seeing the stories here rehashes some of the memories of that horrible experience. It was badly mishandled, as some of the accounts of victims/families here.
So I get what happens in some of these cases. It causes untold damage to the people involved. I sincerely hope and pray that those affected can find refuge for their beleaguered souls in a church that is led by men not driven by ego, but understand what it means to feed Christs sheep. Usually these kinds of churches aren’t flashy and don’t have all of the programs of today’s ‘mega churches’, but they are out there and eager to faithfully carry out their God given call to be and do what God commands of His church.
While Hart and Frame have their Reformed infighting, they can both agree on this purpose. There are a lot of squabbles in the Reformed fold, and it can be over the top, but some of us welcome the concern that these folks have for the truth and their willingness to contend for what they are convinced is true. No communion is perfect, and they all have points of contention on this side of Glory. The alternative is acquiescence, which is what seems like the SGM brass demanded of their flock. It is good to see that you folks have the courage to stand up and demand of your leaders the kind of accountability that they are bound to in Scripture.
Possibly the off shooting videos was referring to CJ Mahaney, Dave Harvey, et al flying down to speak at conferences in Cuba/DR and Carolyn McCulley, who started her own video company and I believe who has done work for SGM also being there at the same time.
I wonder if PDI Past is on to more than he/she realizes.
Jed, oops, sorry about your name, I was in a rush.
I have spent so much time around Reformed people debating doctrine as if the only way to really relate and love each other is a good debate, that it was hard to even understand the PDI mentality, much less enter into it. Even an innocent question was suspect.
Instead of the Reformed pastors I’ve known and loved who thrive on sheep asking him “what about this, what about that” and can teach and explain and recommend resources, it was “one way, one truth, one position, one application, we are doing it right, ask no questions, submit or you are in rebellion”. It wasn’t even Ok to disagree and submit, you had to actually agree or you were proud and rebellious and out of control. Not with all of them of course, but plenty of them.
Iron sharpens iron. Respectful debate sharpens us, and forces us into the word. This is why other reformed churches have men spend three years in seminary and be exposed to a variety of debate among the Reformed camp. They have their positions, but they are humble enough to recognize that saying they are the first group to get it right and do it right in 2000 years (as SGM inferred) is arrogant.
Well, thank God He’s dealing with it at last.
I goofed. Chris Glass stepped down, not Chris Silard. It’s been a while, and I got them mixed up.
5yrsinpdi wrote :The first great Awakening had Edwards and Whitefield as major influences, and opposite them doctrinally was John Wesley (Charles too, for 10 years, but he repented later) and his doctrines of perfectionism and sinlessness in this life. Of course there was going to be teaching on indwelling sin to counteract the doctrine of sinless perfection. But what does SGM pull out of that time? Edwards on joy and rejoicing and the glory of God? No, endless sin sniffing and indwelling sin.
As someone who was 29 years in PDI and now is a Wesleyan/Nazarene/Arminian AND having studied both the critics of Wesleyan-Arminianism as well as Arminius and Wesley’ writings and teachings your characterization above is deeply flawed and inaccurate regarding Wesley’s teaching on Christian perfection or as it is called these day entire sanctification. Wesley categorically never never ever never taught or held to a view of sinless perfection. Never!
Hello again. I would have to say that I agree what others have said above. I truly think the only real attempt at healing must come from those DIRECTLY involved who are still in SG/CLC (who have cared for me and my family MUCH over the years. I don’t know of any misguidance in our lives, FYI). Anything short of that really doesn’t seem to be REPENTANCE but certainly doesn’t discredit CLC’s attempt to change. I just don’t see how healing or reconciliation can occur unless the two named repeatedly are directly involved or at lease speak up and make public confessions.
:worm
:Pleasure: Thanks for the encouragement, people.
SGMnot – great message, way to take a stand.
SGM pastors will never know this side of eternity the damage to people they have caused. Many of those who have been damaged will never come forward. I think of the young wife, who was “ordered” to go back to her abusive husband to be his “punching bag”. Even though the “pastors” knew of the abuse, they still insisted she go back. Thankfully she left that church and received care and protection for pastors who were MEN!! Eventually she and her husband were reconciled and are back together – in a non-sgm church:)
I personally would also like to see those SGM/CLC pastors who slandered pastors/churchs that were not part of SGM make personal formal apologies, but that is a long way off.
On another side note – how is this for the next SGM book “True for you all but not us”
Steve- my comments are based on Dalimore’s bio of Whitefield which included many letters between the two men. What John Wesley taught and what the Reformed community taught were very different (not sure of later ones, I think LLoyd Jones saw Romans 7 as pre conversion, so he was a variant of some sort).
The point here is not precisely what Wesley taught and what precisely entire sanctification means. The point is that he and Whitefield were totally divided on this subject, and out of that time period- which included Edwards-came a lot of writing on indwelling sin and the need to fight sin and mortify sin and the the flesh and so forth until we are dead, in oppostion to Wesleyan teaching.
When you see a group like SGM pull out that one point, and minimize joy and rejoicing and forgiveness and grace, and act like they have the market on what it means to be Reformed, well, they are mistaken.
By the way, here is a quote from John Wesley. To his credit he saw it as a gift not by works, but he did believe in it.
http://ucmpage.org/sgca/wesley01.htm
I am not sure it is OK to thread drift. I was just trying to point out that Reformed doctrine about indwelling sin was a response to this teaching above, and never meant to be used the way SGM used it.
SGMnot, that was truly right on the mark. Surely God inspired.
5 years – Where did Donald bring Hart into this? Did he ever mention him here as someone for people to go read? If so where, because I can’t find it. I was the one that suggest Donald give an update of what he has found out on hart’s blog, as he had a post that mentioned the Mahaney debacle. Seems as though you may be overreacting to something that’s not even there?
And BTW, I am one in which YRR, TGC, T4G & SGM worship DROVE me to old-school Presbyterian confessionalism and worship. So sometimes former SGM peeps end up going more Reformed and not less.
Ray Ortlund to preach at Cornerstone Church of Knoxville this Sunday… (CJ the following week was canceled). I’m taking bets on his topic of choice (slander? gossip? unity? leaving during trials?). (j/k on the bets)
http://www.cornerstonechurchofknoxville.com/event/2011-08-21-ray-ortlund-jr-speaking/
Should be interesting to listen to. Also wonder how much will be edited..?
SGMnot,
Thank you for that post and for taking a stand to unravel the SGM spin. As we continue to work on our response to Fairfax’s Family meeting, I understand just how exhausting and upsetting this can be. No one takes any pleasure in this, we believe we have no choice but to expose the continued lies and deception coming from our former church.
You have my respect and my prayers for your family.
Guy, kuddos on the alternating blue/white on the thread, it is really helpful on the eyes, thanks.
wowzer, I thought he was the one referring DH, but maybe I am wrong if it was you? Maybe it was at refuge? Too busy to try and reread all the last threads.
I am not sure “overreacting” is wrong when a person claims to be Reformed and then presents a God who is not welcoming and friendly to His own children, but is instead just a jealous God from the end of the book of Job.
That’s been the whole problem with SGM. When Jesus died the veil was ripped in two, and instead of the high priest going in once a year to God’s presence, now the blood of Jesus was sprinkled on the mercy seat and we can all go in, all the time. He welcomes us, he wants us to enter. What grace, what love.
Shepherding doctrine cuts men off from God and has the high priests go in to the Holy Sprit, but not the lowly people. It is so wrong, so not Reformed at all. A return to Roman catholicism in some ways.
Just because a blogger is negative about CJ does not make him worth listening to.
I’ve enjoyed many a good conservative Presby service myself, so glad you are happy. Nothing quite like saying those old creeds and snips of confessions together, and the bible passages for responsive readings, well, it can be wonderful.
Did anyone recommend Hart or his writing? no. I’ll repeat it again – no. Did anyone bring up that quote? no (well, you did). So it just seems like in my mind this is a little bit of an overreaction. I simply asked the Donald to give an update to whomever might be curious at Hart’s blog. You’re actually doing more to promote Hart by raising a stink about something that you brought up. Most people on here never even knew who he was… but they do now.
And BTW, i mentioned “oldlife” not “Dr. Hart” simply because I didn’t see the need to promote him here. Anywho, back to more serious discussion… :beat
Well, one more thing… I think your reasoning behind your overreaction (granted, my perspective and not yours)is good. I could see where some would take offense at that quote, and it may even be harmful. I don’t know the context of it and I don’t feel as though I have to defend it. DGH wrote an excellent book on worship and it has no quotes like that in it. What it does emphasis is reverence for God. But once again, I commend you for your concern for others.
First of all I’like to give 2 thumbs up to SGMnot for her reasoned, intelligent, and passionate response. :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap
Second I doubt very much you, exclcer, her mom or anyone else will hear an apology from Gary, John, CJ, or anyone else that was involved. According to Gary’s bio on the Covlife site he was 30 in 1977 so that means he either just turned 64 or will shortly. John’s bio gives no such age marker so I’ll just guess based on his being a “pastor since 1981”. So I’ll put him at 60 years old. Most people get saved as young people in their teens and 20’s. In general as a person gets older they get more set in their ways and it is harder for them to repent and admit wrong. It has been stated here and elsewhere that CJ and his close associates didn’t even want to acknowledge the blogs exist. Josh even mentioning them means he’s bucking his “mentor” CJ.
Gary is CJ’s bro-in-law. An open apology means open repentance and I’m pretty sure none of them want to do that, especially here. As a senior pastor in his own church John is outside the bounds of the CLC reach and is therefore not accountable to them. Gary is an SGM pastor and is also outside the bounds of the CLC reach. Josh is not the “boss” of either. And both are old enough to be his father so he can’t push but so hard especially with the scripture about “rebuking an elder” ringing in his ears. A public apology from any of the pastors involved is probably quite beyond them because most (but certainly not all) people in that age category refuse to admit when they are wrong. This is the same reason most older people don’t get saved. A heart hardened by age and time.
Interesting new post at Brent Detwiler’s blog:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2011/8/16/the-cardinal-sins-of-joshua-harris.html
Great post, SGMnot; you covered so many important things.
I would add one more thing to the list of things GL and JH and others at SGM and CLC should do: Learn about sexual abuse and PTSD. What they are calling “teenage experimentation” is actually leaving a lifetime of difficulties for the victim to deal with. It is possible to heal but it is not simple or easy, partly because in most cases the victim is not even sure what was wrong and what was right — or even what was done or who did it.
The families in these cases have wanted to know what happened, but the pastors have tried to block this. This is a huge error right there; the moms are right. Part of helping the victim to heal is to help them understand what happened and to grieve the losses. Only after they grieve are they able to forgive and move on.
Even then, trust and reconciliation are probably not possible — sadly, most abusers do not do the hard work involved to get to the point where they are trustworthy.
There is much more to this topic… I am posting some to my personal site on these issues as I talk to people with PTSD a lot these days, though not mostly from SGM. I started posting to give them a way to explain their PTSD to friends and family who care about them but don’t understand it.
ExCLCer’sMom and ExCLCer, I knew you all way back when; I left CLC in 1987 before I got married. My maiden name was Liz Allen; a photo of me is on my home page. Way back when, I only heard that you were getting divorced…. It saddens me so much to hear what happened to your family. It’s incredible that when you were hurting so badly that you not only didn’t get help, but you were tossed out the door. If you want to contact me, my email is liz4cps@mac.com.
God bless!
5YearsinPDI: While I appreciate you quote from Wesley (I have the book) the issue is the use of the term “sinless” perfection to charaterize a distinctive of Wesley’s beliefs. Wesley neither used that term to describe/define entire sanctification nor did he claim it as his experience, although he did claim to experience entire sanctification. My point was simply to correct a typical and unfortunately, perjorative use of a term that Reformed critics of Wesley and Arminianism often use to bash us. Wesley and Whitefield did indeed differ on some fundamental issues based on their respective Calvinism and Arminianism, although they remained good friends. Wesley’s primary disagreement with Whitefield’s Calvinism was limited or particular atonement and it’s corollary predestination of the reprobate. At issue for Wesley was that he believed, as revealed in scripture, that God’s primary characteristic is love. Calvin and the Reformers after him, believed, as revealed in scripture, God’s primary characteristic is His sovereignty. This directly affected the respective soteriologies of the two men and led Whitefield and other Reformers to emphasize indwelling sin as you correctly pointed out. Wesley’s soteriology led to an emphasis on free grace and sanctification (Discovering Christian Holiness: The Heart of Wesleyan-Holiness Theology. Diane Leclerc. 2011).
This reply is simply to clarify the importance of the use of words and definitions especially when they are factually incorrect. I agree with everything else you wrote in the post. :-)
liz4cps #31: Thanks good points and that reminds me…this blog is kind of like a “collective conscience” (no one person knows it all, but together…we know much!) If anyone else can think of a specific, fact-based question on the sex abuse cases that these gentlemen should answer, let’s at least get them in “print” here in the blogosphere!
Whether they man up and deal with this or not…THIS at least will be a public testament of it all. :mic
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I am a regular reader, first time writer. I am a friendly observer, as I have long-term friendships in and among several SGM-related churches, as well as relatives currently active in the churches. I am not a member of an SGM church, or a former pastor of such (or staff member – no such history). I have visited related churches from time to time and have been blessed (cliché word, I know) by the ministry of the Word. My relatives have had “normal questions” from time to time about certain policies (such as “signing up” for membership?), but never – as far as I know – any “deal-breakers,” and have never reported any personal abuse or rejection, nor have they shared any such knowledge about others with me. In fact, I believe they have grown spiritually under the care of their respective pastors/care group leaders.
With all that, my head is not in the sand, and I’m aware that CLC and SGM are working through some very serious difficulties – and that problems have existed for a very long time. I am “Reformed” enough to see God’s sovereign hand in all this unraveling. (Full disclosure: I am a long-term friend of Brent Detwiler, and I believe he has done a good and needful service to put out the carefully recorded documents. Brent knows me and knows I support what he has done – but I am not anyone’s “enemy,” as I personally have no “horse in the race,” as they say.
I’m hoping to get this posted for three reasons. First is to express what I think is well-deserved thanks and honor to “SGMnot” for the clarity and the “heart” represented in the reply to Mr. Somerville. I do not know Mr. S., but when I read that he was writing “on behalf of [other] pastors,” I knew from logic that something was amiss, and it has bugged me. In other words, another “shoe” had to drop – and that’s what SGMnot’s letter did in such a clear, high-class, kind, direct, unflinching, passionate [for truth], and thorough way. The writer has my own thanks, though I am not in the loop in any sense. It is a matter of what is right and just. It is simply right and important to challenge a letter that says, “on behalf of [others]” who themselves have not written or signed off on the sentiments. As far as sitting or talking with Mr. S., such a request begs the question, “Why?” Does he truly believe the historical record? If he does, he should, it seems to me, be urging repentance and a heartfelt response from those who perpetrated the hurts or were highly insensitive (it appears) originally. So, I think (FWIW) that SGMnot has added one of the most important documents to the entire Refuge discussion. I am moved by it to say thanks and to give thanks to God for the grace, wisdom, and courage found to so write.
Second, I do not know Kris and Guy, but I think your joint managing of this site is nothing short of some of the best management and balance and “means of grace” (if I may invoke that phrase?) I’ve ever seen in such a situation, with broken hearts, unresolved feelings, hurts, anger, and expression of (in some cases) long-suppressed emotions that needed (and still need) some sort of forum. I hope I do not sound patronizing when I say, “Well done.” I read only one very brief comment way, way back I thought bordered on being crude (referencing sexual intimacy between a pastor and his wife). The language (IMHO) could have been more gentile – but I guessed that you wish to do little or no censoring, as that is what so many seem to have experienced in wanting/needing to be heard. And the gentleman who wrote was clearly angry and no doubt felt many hurts.
Finally, I hope your ongoing guidance will not allow the threads to become diluted by doctrinal infighting, as though Wesley, Whitefield, and (if it were possible) Calvin are still trying to duke it out over the so-called doctrines of grace. I’m sure the true historians will remember that while John and George could not work together due to such (potentially violent) differences, they did love each other as brothers in Christ, and it was Mr. Wesley who preached at Whitefield’s funeral. My own views are not relevant, but it always helps me to remember that – despite such strong differences – God used both men in great ways to advance the gospel and His kingdom. Neither was perfect, and one was no doubt more “right” than the other – but God’s blessing and Spirit were in and on the ministries of both men.
Thanks for allowing me to enter the discussion. I will not participate often, if again. If you need to edit me, it’s your blog, not mine. I’ll be grateful to be allowed on.
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Friendly O. #34: Thank you, you have brought me to tears. And although I am a woman (the weaker/more emotional sex and all that) :wink: that often doesn’t happen.
@SGMnot –
I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anything more direct, gracious, and “speaking-the-truth-in-love” than that.
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Hi Friendly Observer
Don’t think any “doctrinal” infighting has taken place in my exchange with 5yearsinPDI. I am in agreement with the assessment made in 5years posts. For me it was simply a small, but critical, point regarding the use of a factually inaccurate term in 5Years post that I felt obliged to correct in the spirit of this forum. In my second post I was simply expanding on a pointn5Years made in reference to the Wesley-Whitefield relationship and the connection to a focus in Reformation thinking on indwelling sin as opposed the biblical emphasis on indwelling grace. My own opinion based on my familiarity with both theologies is that theology informs doctrine and doctrine informs practice. With SGM their application and interpretation of TULIP has expressed itself in authoritarianism and this is directly connected to their destructive understanding of Calvinism. Theology matters and discussions of practice inevitably and necessarily lead to discussion in theology.
sgmnot – PERFECT response!!!! AWESOME job on it!!!!!
one comment on Steve and 5years’ ongoing discussion, based on Steve’s #37 –
Am guessing both of you would agree that very often destructive practices are used to enforce corrupt doctrine which flows from extremely narrow minded theology…
Just sayin’…
Sgmnot, that was beautiful. :goodpost
@Wowzers, a correct analysis, but engagement would have been distractionary to the main thread and was not interested in a simple and easy rebuttal. Nuff there, but you were spot-on.
@SGNnot, holy moly, hot jacamole. Good stuff. Hat tip.
I just read your questions to my wife… well said SGMnot!
SGMnot – wonderfully done, wonderfully said. Thank you!