Two More Responses To Tim Challies’ Condemnation Of “Christian Wikileaks”
August 18, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Kris says: In addition to Brian Auten’s very well-done response to Tim Challies’ piece on C.J. Mahaney, we have the following from commenter “Argo.” This is addressed to Brent Detwiler and was also posted to Brent Detwiler’s blog. The indented (block-quoted) portions are quotes from Challies’ original article. The parts in parentheses are “Argo’s” thoughts.
“Argo” says:
Brent, I commend you for even responding to Tim’s post, let alone being so easy on him. I, however, am finding it very difficult to be as charitable. I will try to keep this as nice as I can.
“What are we to think of wikileaks-style revelation? How are you and I to react? Is it public? Is it something we ought to read?”
(These are fabricated dilemmas; a set-up, to feed us a preconceived opinion. We can answer these questions on our own for ourselves; they are not hard; we do not need Tim’s opinion.)
“Tabloid culture has made us voyeuristic…”
(General, unsubstantiated claim. Inappropriate to apply so broadly to the Christian community who reads this post.)
“Society has declared document leaks a legitimate form of…exposing those who have wronged us.”
(Debatable statement at best. Couched in patronizing, presumptuous language.)
“We (who, the Christian readers?) tend to praise whistleblowers who advance our agendas…”
(Again, generalization, presumptuous; inferring that those who support Brent’s documents are blind sheep following passion, not reason. This is a baseless claim.)
“Does the Bible condemn or condone whistleblowers?”
(Never seen “whistleblower” in my translation, but then, it’s not ESV. Whistleblower is, to me, a disparaging slang term, usually not associated with honor. We see where Tim is going. Can I use a different word for whistleblowing? How about “exposing”, “revealing”, “enlightening”? What does the Bible say about those words? This is an easy game to play.)
“Let us be sure that we do not begin to celebrate Christian whistleblowers.”
(Okay, my turn in the game:
Let us be sure that we do not begin to celebrate [those who reveal chronic patterns of sin and authoritarianism in our churches].
Let us be sure that we do not begin to celebrate [those who expose the serious concerns of church members who have been spiritually abused].
Let us be sure that we do not begin to celebrate [those who enlighten us as to the pitfalls of authoritarian-style church polity].
Now…do we all still agree with Tim?)
“Which in turn means that it was wrong to make these documents public.”
(Shocking that he would conclude this, especially since the ladder that led to this summit contained the following rungs: “I have not corresponded…”, “I have no formal connection…”, “wikileaks-style revelation”, “tabloid culture”, “voyeuristic”, “whistleblowing”. Again, I am shocked that Tim concluded that Brent was wrong to release the documents.)
“It is clear where the bias lies…”
(It is? Really? Where? Because not even CJ or the SGM Board has enlightened the rest of us as to this little detail. Funny how a man with no contact or formal relationship with SGM or Brent could know this when the rest of us do not.)
“[The documents were]…just written to influence us against CJ.”
(Wow. Brent apparently has a time machine now, and Brent’s documents must have used it to influence the hundreds of people who started and commented on three anti-SGM blogs years BEFORE any of us, including SGM, knew the documents existed.)
“The Bible would tell us not to read…”
(Er…where does the Bible address wikileaks? Or menus for that matter? Or textbooks? Or phone books? Do we just need to check with Tim to decide what type of literature/media the Bible says we can and cannot read?)
(INTERMISSION: Tim says he hesitated reading the documents at first, because he knew his motives would be OBVIOUSLY sinful. Inference: the same is true for all of you out there in humankind-land who read the documents. Your motives are OBVIOUSLY sinful to any true Christian. Thanks, Tim, for knowing my heart so well. But then, Tim said he finally read them, because…well, because lots of other people were reading them. Okay, I guess it’s fine to sin against your own conscience as long as everyone’s doing it.)
“If they have broken the law, or are putting people in danger the situation may be different.”
(Now this is where it gets really egregious. Let me get this straight. We are supposed to blindly follow our church leaders, regardless of what patterns of sin and hypocrisy they are engaged in, putting aside our consciences before God, putting aside the command to test every teaching against scripture, as long as the leaders are not breaking the law…as in the, like, go-to-court, secular, legal, every citizen law? Oh…well, I have a brand new perspective on history, then! For example, what the heck were all those slaves doing in the South carrying on with all their stop-oppressing-us business? The nerve! I mean, it wasn’t like the slave owners of the time were breaking the law. And what about that pesky Dr. Martin Luther King? How dare he protest segregation! It wasn’t against the law. It wasn’t putting anyone in danger. Perfectly fine, so what was Dr. King’s problem?)
(CONCLUSION: I am very pessimistic right now about the reformed movement. Is this really what I’ve been following? You know, I think they run a late service at the Lutheran church up the road. I think I’ll sleep in and the stop by. It may not have contemporary worship, but at least I won’t have to hear a sermon on “The Evils of Whistleblowing on Wikileaks”, or “Gospel-Centered Blogging”.)
———————————————-
Kris says: I also had an observation to add to Brian Auten’s thoughts. I posted this as a comment earlier today.
I was actually considering writing some sort of response to Tim Challies myself. When I saw Brian’s post, I realized I didn’t need to – he pretty much said everything I would have said, and since he’s an SGM insider, his words are more powerful than mine would be.
The only thing I would consider adding would have to do with this assertion from Mr. Challies:
It was almost 6 weeks ago that this information came to light. Beyond a brief mention in an interview, this is the first I’ve written about it, despite being rebuked by a handful of bloggers and receiving many email requests for comment. I guess this is the kind of situation I typically comment on since, in some ways, that’s what I do on this blog: I try to write about what is of interest to Christians in this little slice of the Christian world. Yet I have hesitated, not because I am in any way formally connected to SGM or CLC and not because I have anything to lose. [emphasis added]
I used to have a lot of respect for Tim Challies. I discovered his blog way back in the early days, before it became his full-time occupation. (He used to work as a web designer, if memory serves, but once he’d built enough of a name for himself, and had a book contract, he was able to quit that job and focus on blogging/writing full-time. I also believe he’s now employed at least part-time by his church as one of its “teaching elders,” a position he was offered no doubt at least in part because of his blogging fame.)
I think I found his site way back in 2004 or 2005 while looking for information about Rick Warren. My parents’ church had been suddenly overtaken by “Purpose-Driven” stuff, and my dad and I had been having discussions about what was bothering him about Warren’s materials. We found Mr. Challies’ analysis of the “Purpose-Driven” movement to be very helpful. I also appreciated his various book reviews.
Also, interestingly enough, it was Challies’ live-blogging from SGM conferences – as well as his positive reviews of SGM materials and how obviously enamored he was with CJ Mahaney – that caused Guy and me to visit and then stick around our SGM church as long as we did. By the time we were attending our SGM church, I’d developed into such a Challies fan-girl that I kept telling myself, “Surely you must just be imagining that there’s something wrong here. Surely a guy like Tim Challies cannot be wrong. He’s got such great discernment about everything else!”
Later, though, after we’d left SGM and then stumbled upon SGM’s long history of spiritual abuse because of interacting with others on this blog, I began to have my doubts about Tim Challies. I’d contacted him probably 3 or 4 weeks after first hearing of some of the really bad stories, just knowing that he’d take some of the same brain power and energy he’d directed toward deconstructing Rick Warren’s “Purpose-Driven” materials and use it to take a closer look at SGM.
Well, I was wrong. He did answer my email, but it was the briefest and most non-committal of responses. About six months later, I think I wrote him again, and once again got something like a one-sentence email in return.
I guess I’m a little bit slow, because I still didn’t get it. I still didn’t understand why it was that Tim Challies could critique Rick Warren but seemed to be so willfully oblivious about problems with CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries.
I can’t quite remember when it was that the pieces finally began to fall into place. Maybe it was something one of the commenters here said. I don’t recall anymore. But one day I realized that – contrary to what Tim Challies asserted in his post yesterday –
…Yet I have hesitated, not because I am in any way formally connected to SGM or CLC and not because I have anything to lose.
he does have a career motivation to write positive stuff about SGM.
While what Mr. Challies says here is technically true – he isn’t “formally connected to SGM” – it is nonetheless a misleading statement. The reality is that Tim Challies does indeed have some pretty significant connections with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Sure, he’s not technically employed by SGM or on SGM’s payroll. But whether he wants to acknowledge it or not, he does indeed have something to lose!
The “Reformed” world is pretty tight these days. Tim Challies supports his family of 5 at least in part through ad revenues from his blog, and through royalties he earns from his books. I don’t have a copy of Challies’ latest book in front of me, but I am fairly certain either CJ Mahaney himself or one or more of CJ’s close cohorts provided book blurbs (endorsements) for the cover. SGM also has an eager book-buying population. Historically, if CJ recommends a book, the book will be sold in SGM bookstores (and at SGM book tables), and SGM lemmings will stand in line to buy whatever their pastors recommend.
It’s now totally logical, why Tim Challies wouldn’t dare to break ranks with the likes of Reformed Big Dogs like Al Mohler and Ligon Duncan. Or even of the Junior Reformed Big Dogs like Kevin DeYoung. All of these men have given CJ a free pass and have declared Brent’s documents to be meaningless. Challies wouldn’t dare be the lone voice going against that crowd. If he were, he would jeopardize a significant portion of his book endorsers and the book-buying audience he depends upon for his livelihood
So he gives us his half-hearted sermonette about the evils of Wikileaks for Christians. Even as he admits that he hasn’t read all of Brent’s documents, he pronounces judgment on them and feels free to declare that they primarily represent an “interpersonal conflict.” Mr. Challies seems grimly determined to overlook the obvious larger picture that is present in the fact that Brent Detwiler grew so frustrated over trying to call CJ to some sort of formal accountability over the course of a decade that Brent believed he had no other alternative but to send out his documents to a large circle of SGM pastors. If such a dramatic move doesn’t indicate serious organizational flaws (and not just a “largely interpersonal conflict”) I’m not sure what does.
Mr. Challies – the guy who first garnered a blog following by picking apart Rick Warren and making a name for himself as having “discernment,” even going so far as writing a book about discernment – now shows us that when his livelihood is at risk, his discernment takes a vacation.
Within the context of SGM, I now believe that Mr. Challies’ discernment is about on par with Mr. Mahaney’s humility. Both men may have “written the book” – but that doesn’t mean they actually live out what their subject matter.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
We went into the CLC meeting hoping to hear something that would make us want to stay at the church and stick this out, but we instead left basically saying that we couldn’t see a reason to go back.
I am hoping that people continue to email Josh with their comments about the members meetings. He asked people to please email him. I will ask for the meetings to allow for member question and answer time. It actually takes longer for them to answer the mail-in questions, and then no follow up questons can be added at that point. It would show a true change in direction and integrity and honesty, to answer questions honestly and on the spot.
If and when questions can not be answered right there, they should either get back to the person or give the answer at the next members meeting. If they do not, Members need to follow up and get the answers they need! Too many unanswered questions getting lost in the mud.
Josh has to put a stop to the praise of man happening all over again. Shame on him for allow that worship of him.
As kids playing football or basketball we used to say: No guts no glory!! GS had the b-lls to post here. Sure, he got a little beat up but at least he had the b-lls to try. His biggest problem is he posted but didn’t dialogue. Granted he posted as a “on behalf of…” but I’d like to see a dialogue as a man not as a rep. Sure, he would be challenged, but I believe he got just as much praise for posting the offer as he got beaten up for the wishy/washy wording. The “final draft” disclaimer was BS and Josh knows it.
For Josh to say Gary and John had no forum to respond is disengenuious at best. Gary and John can post here and elsewhere. But just looking at it through their eyes… there is NO upside to them doing it. Anything they say might be actionable in court. But then again, no guts, no glory. Neither had the b-lls to show up at the family meeting although neither is required to be there due to their employment status. However I do think Gary should be there. He’s a member at CLC. He’s part of the “family”. If he thought his actions were right let him stand up like a man and defend it. As for John… Is Solid Rock having family meetings? Could someone challenge him openly at one? Josh as senior pastor is catching hell but John is senior pastor at Solid Rock so he can’t hide at a family meeting unlees he has Curtis moderate it.
Josh is probably getting beaten up on all sides. He’s catching it here, at refuge, and at work. (Seems like he did a backtrack on Greg’s post that would make Michael Jackson’s moonwalk envious.)He probably can’t fully speak his mind to anyone but God and his wife. And God fully knows his thoughts and his heart. WHEN he takes a vacation it will be much needed. Hopefully he won’t join CJ on his.
HighChurch: NOthing’s changed…and NOthing is going to change with these guys. Like I said in a previous post “They have been corrupted by their hunger and lust for power which they will sooner die trying to keep than relinquish to the true Shepherd of the sheep – Jesus Christ. They will lie, pretend, withhold information, manipulate and do whatever it takes to hold on to the control they so love to have. They are narcissist men who are so full of themselves – they can never be trusted!” If any of you think that this stinking system can be salvaged and reformed, mark my words – you will be disappointed. It is a system from hell and God is judging it – not reforming it! The people who continue to submit to it and give their “standing O’s” when these guys spin their webs are the ones enabling them to continue and God will hold every one of them accountable!
Kris & Argo,
Thank you for this incredibly well-thought out post. Excellent.
Jedi wrote: #51
“Josh has to put a stop to the praise of man happening all over again. Shame on him for allow that worship of him.”
I think what Jedi said is pretty key to all of this. Reading through the follow-up comments on Challies’ site, I was struck by the encouragement he was getting, someone even went so far as to call his article a “wonderful and masterful job.” It’s clear there is a interesting pattern among this group of folks, all this promoting of one another, all this praise of one another, it never stops, even in the face of documentation and repeated stories of all kinds of spiritual abuse. If these men would only lift the name of Jesus half as much as they praise one another, their ministries might look a bit different.
When one of them has the backbone to step down, voluntarily, and stop the attempt to shore up the Titanic and clean the church bathrooms for a year (and be truly THANKFUL about it) that would be evidence of true humility and possible change.
All I hear is damage control and clean-up. How similar CLC’s recent Family meeting sounds to Fairfax’s Family meeting. If these guys can’t respond humbly AND honestly in the face of THAT issue, what will it take?
I realize child abuse is NOT the only problem/issue in SGM, but it’s the one that gets a lot of attention, you’d think they’d walk very carefully when addressing it, rather than crack jokes, deny facts and spin the truth.
Matt #4 – I personally think that elders should just be older, wiser men out of the congregation who don’t get any kind of salary. That means they live in the same world as we do and don’t see a distinction between clergy and laity.
Anyone interested in sharing their story with the Washington Post may want to check out http://www.wartburgwatch.com this morning.
Patti, I appreciate your posts too! Thanks for your words of encouragement yesterday. :)
One thing to realize is that Josh Harris in the past has had to walk the fence with his “kissing dating goodbye” approach. Despite the problems “kissing dating goodbye” has caused he has been fairly silent and not real vocal about admitting these problems. This could be due to a number of reasons including his wanting to not offend the homeschooling circles that he grew up being a part of and it being hard to admit the approach and book that brought him fame might not be all that it was presented to be.
Just some thoughts.
It is really sady that Harris and other leaders can’t admit past wrongs here, especially with what they did to the family where the father molested one of the children in the family.
Just a thought on Josh H that may be helpful in shedding light…
There was a mention by both JH and GS at the meeting that there are “documents” and “a file” that was reviewed for each sex abuse case. My take is “documents” were presented “proving” GR and JL did an excellent job caring for these families and a completely different version that what has been presented here on the blogs.
NOTE – I am not saying anyone is lying on this blog – please do not read something here that is not here.
I share this to say if JH was presented with things showing what an excellent job GR and JL did that would explain some things that happened at the meeting.
JH was not senior pastor at the time or involved in these situations. All he has to go on is word of mouth, this blog and whatever “documents” he was shown.
All that said, I personally wanted to hear more compassion. Even if those “documents” are full of truth and the blogs are a lie (which I do not believe to be the case), but even if that is the case, those hurting currently and hurt by CLC must be shown the compassion of Jesus Christ.
He is being taken to task by everyone. Here, SGM, his friends, CLC pastors, his church body and so forth.
Pray for JH that poor man has to be in the most difficult position of all SGM and CLC pastors right now.
@Golden, I couldn’t agree more. JH needs lots of prayer…for wisdom and perseverence
Another poster shared something good the other day. I read through the links she pointed to and apologize for the length of this, but C.J. and Josh fit this almost to a T. This is well worth reading and explains a lot.
Role Playing in a Toxic Faith System
“Toxic faith exists when one or more dysfunctional systems provide false concepts of God, faith, and the individual.” Stephen Arterburn and Jack Felton
Ever wonder what is the “glue” that holds toxic faith systems together so strongly? It’s actually quite simple. According to Arterburn and Felton, “In a dysfunctional system, whether it be a family or a religious organization, roles evolve to support the system. Each person must be willing to play the roles that become more keenly defined as addiction intensifies.” (p. 161)
In toxic faith systems, each person becomes addicted to the system, along with its distinctive beliefs and behaviors. In these dysfunctional organizations, God and faith are essentially removed and replaced by a set of rules and dictates. As the book Toxic Faith explains: “Any deviation from the respective role is taken as a sign of rebellion and is dealt with quickly through shaming and rejection.”
There are FIVE ROLES in a toxic faith system:
(1) Persecutor
(2) Co-Conspirator
(3) Enabler
(4) Victim
(5) Outcast
In order to understand the dynamics of a toxic faith system, it’s important to look at the roles various members play. First, let’s examine what I consider to be the most fascinating role — the persecutor.
THE ROLE OF THE PERSECUTOR
The most dominant role in a toxic faith system is that of persecutor. As Arterburn and Felton point out: “Persecutors don’t start out to victimize their followers or families. They start out as unhealthy individuals who were deprived or smothered by their parents as children. Rather than move beyond such a dysfunctional background, they compensate in ways that victimize others.” (p. 172)
Here’s one of the saddest statements in Toxic Faith regarding the persecutor: “These individuals need to defend against their own sense of brokenness and fallability, and they often do so through outrageous behavior. They end up hurting many, especially those who possess a true faith and sincerely seek God’s will for their lives.” (p. 172)
This will come as no surprise to those who have been held hostage in toxic faith systems – persecutors are usually great performers! Often, those who become persecutors were rejected with they were younger. In order to avoid rejection, they rely on their own abilities to find God’s favor, instead of on God Himself. “Their performance becomes everything, and they surround themselves with people willing to say that their performance is outstanding.” (p. 173)
Persecutors are compulsive. “Their religion becomes an obsession, motivated by compulsion rather than conviction.” (p. 179)
Persecutors need forgiveness. When they get in a bind, they apologize and ask for forgiveness, appearing to be quite sincere. The harsh reality is they are not sorry. They seek forgiveness only when they cannot talk their way out of a jam. “Tearful confessios usually do the trick to win back the doubting Thomases whose faith in the persecutor started to wane.” (p. 180)
Persecutors are caught up in a deadly and sinful condition called self-obsession. Here’s a dire warning in Toxic Faith: “If they are allowed to continue in their ministries, they will go on victiimizing people until they run out of locations.” (p. 18)
Characteristics of the Persecutor (p. 182)
* Frequently defends own problems
* Feels the need to embellish the truth and make things appear more grand than they really are
* Feels the need to be in control
* Seeks power and control
* Speaks boldly about sinful behavior, even when involved in that same behavior
* Projects own wrongs onto other people
* Sees things in terms of very black or very white
* Believes people are extremely wonderful or bad, usually depending on the amount of support offered to the persecutor
* Appears very angry with those involved in sin
* Often is motivated by greed
* Fears sexual inadequacy
* Was probably born into an abusive or neglectful home t hat appeared wonderful to those outside the family
* Feel owed something
* Feels persecuted
* Is extremely self-centered
* Lives in false world where person is convinced he or she is right
* Usually possesses special talents
* Contorts God’s Word to fit own beliefs
* Surrounds self with people who are insecure and easily swayed
* Blames others for own failures
* Attempts to make others accept responsibility for own mistakes
* Feels disappointment in God, self, and others
* Usually is impressed with material goods and those who own them
* Is very angry
* Has compulsions in several areas
* Possesses an observable compulsion such as hard work that appears admirable to the world
* Possesses a hidden compulsion that would disgust most people if it were known
* Places great value on performance
* Deeply resents having to perform
* Is not involved in any accountable relationships
* Has no intimate relationships
* When in a bind will ask for forgiveness and appear sincere doing so
* Fears not measuring up or losing image
* Fears that if no longer able to perform for the masses will be useless to God
* Needs professional help
THE ROLE OF THE CO-CONSPIRATOR (aka “The Ultimate Team Player”)
Where there is a persecutor in a toxic faith system, you can be certain there is at least one co-conspirator. This individual “manipulates, plots, and plans to keep the persecutor in power and position.” (p. 183)
The persecutor and co-conspirator work together as a unit. In larger organizations, there are often several co-conspirators who function as “yes-men”. These individuals will do anything and everything to protect the persecutor. Arterburn and Felton explain that co-conspirators “feed into the persecutor’s ego”, further blinding him from reality. (p. 183) If it were not for these “yes-men”, the persecutor’s empire would collapse.
The book explains that “In a toxic-faith system, these are the most dangerous followers. They are as driven and misguided as the persecutor, and because they are close to power, people trust them. Because they so deeply believe in the persecutor, many will continue to support that person when trouble, rumor, or admission of wrong surfaces.” (p. 184)
Characteristics of the Co-Conspirator (p. 189)
* Assumes the role of the ultimate team player
* Shows total dedication to the persecutor
* Always finds a way to support the position of the persecutor
* Feeds the persecutor’s ego
* Is addicted to the power granted by the persecutor
* Keeps things going within the toxic-faith system
* Ensure that everything is taken care of responsibly
* Typically is a small person who feels big when in on the action
* Willingly deceives to maintain the persecutor’s power
* Is good at lying
* Enjoys being rewarded for willingness to distort the truth
* Usually felt inferior as a child
* Ties personal feelings of value to another person rather than to God
* Protects sense of self-worth by protecting the persecutor
* Appears unassuming and grateful to be number two in the organization
* Enjoys material things
* Is sincerely deluded
* Feels weak
* Lacks the strong charisma and leadership abilities of the persecutor
* Feels extremely inadequate
* Works as a single unit with the persecutor
* Lives to be appreciated and recognized by the persecutor
* Needs to feel safe in work and relationships
* Is viewed by outsiders as trustworthy, conscientious, competent, mature, and reliable
* Needs professional help
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/08/05/role-playing-in-a-toxic-faith-system/
These are excellent and well thought out posts. It is perhaps better to assess things with this sort of process,along with sensible biblical precedents. Mr Challies has been found out. Well done! These types of people often feel that they are so influential they confront and manipulate basic, long held Christian understanding without realising it. Their influence and popularity often deludes them into a self righteousness that those they talk to most, cannot see. Forgive them, they know not what they do….. That is until someone, enabled by the Holy Spirit, wisely highlights it in front of whoever needs to hear.
The observations that have been made here about praising men and ego stroking is ringing bells for me this morning. I never could bring myself to follow the “five praises for every one criticism” (or whatever the proportions were) rule. Of course, that made me overly critical :( . I just couldn’t get past the verses that condemn flattering lips, and “I really like your tie, but what you preached demonstrated a lack of reading comprehension,” just doesn’t seem to cut it. The love of praise and flattery is definitely one of the cultural failings of the YR&R “movement.”
acme, good post #49
Golden, but Josh, “that poor man” sure got a longgggggg round of applause.
I, for one, was not standing. Minus a brief applause for Mrs. So-and-So who headed up VBS or something, I have never been in a church where applauding for leaders was common and appropriate.
CJ spoke at CLC sometime this past year on a Sunday morning, and the applause was deafening, and even longer than what Josh got the other night. It was downright creepy. I mean, he’s a man. I felt extremely uncomfortable in that moment.
Apparently the CLC pastor’s motto is (to the tune of Be Thou My Vision):
“Riches I heed……and man’s empty praise.”
Anyway, Josh is boldly defending the as-is, status quo of CLC.
I wonder if GS’s email was never meant to be more than spin, a mere saving face.
OR did Josh change his mind about Greg’s post only after SGmnot (and Exclcer) wrote back to say “NO thanks”?
Question: If you email Josh with a question, it wouldn’t be anonymous, right? I’m concerned about my family, and don’t want to be blacklisted/labeled simply because I choose to be critical thinker.
Breeezy said, “He probably can’t fully speak his mind to anyone but God and his wife.”
Breeezy, why can’t he?
If you’re saying, he doesn’t want to, that is one thing, but what would prevent him from doing so? He can. He has the ability. Does he have the will to speak his conscience, whatever it be, to stand and do the hard thing- stand up for what he believes the truth to be?
I know it’s hard. But what isn’t?
Yellow, I can see where you are coming from. My perspective is just different. Applause one night does not equate an easy or enviable role. He is under fire in ways that, from my view, necessitate prayer.
@ 65: Applauding preachers as if their celebs… I wonder what the Apostle Paul would say about this? My former SGM church would “honor” people all the time and stand and clap for them, sometimes for quite a while. I always wondered what visitors thought. I would always take the focus off of God and put it on man. There are other ways you can fulfill “give honor where honer is due” than this.
Golden, you are right. :D
Pastors across the country are probably all saying to themselves “Sheesh, I’m glad I’m not is HIS shoes!”
He does need our prayers!
Revisiting the post that first called me to action on this blog(email excerpts from one pastor to another):
Also, I referred back to Kris’ posting on “How To Make Your Church Organization Appear Problem-Free:”
I would add to that “Give undue praise to the very people who caused the problem to begin with, giving the impression they are irreproachable and right, as to avoid any further questioning of their past actions, and to simultaneously further negate the credibility of anyone who would say different.”
I, for one, am wholly and fully disgusted and appalled at what seems to be said at this meeting. It’s one thing to claim he (Josh) doesn’t know the facts, but to stand up and put his reputation and name on the line in support and even praise of these two men, GR and JL …… ugh, disgustingly lacking in integrity.
Strange how they apologized for Greg’s letter….I’m sure it wouldn’t have gone that way had everyone said “oh, thanks Greg, it’s all water under the bridge. Let’s close the blogs now and be quiet.” He would have been praised to no end. Kind of insulting that they even thought that could happen from such a flimsy letter. But, it didn’t work, so on to plan B – retract and distract.
Yellow mentioned how in the meeting they ” let it be known that GR and JL provided a very high quality of pastoral care in these two cases”. Wow, that’s news to me, and apparently should be news to Gary as well, because Gary himself said in his email ” in the light of today and what we have learned since then, and especially in light of getting your perspective, we would see deficiencies in our care.” Soooo, is “deficient care” also known as “high quality”????? Maybe they want to retract that too, while they are busy retracting anything that would give the impression they were ever wrong in any way.
But once again, these two poor righteous men need others to come forward to guard their reputation since they have no forum to respond………WHAAAAT??? First of all, guard their reputation??? Shouldn’t they be more concerned with character than with reputation? CHARACTER is what you really are, while REPUTATION is merely what others think you are!
Secondly, they have just as many forums to respond as any of us do, maybe more. Gary is a CLC member – he can’t be at the “members” meeting? What a crock of total shiz! They didn’t mind responding before, when they thought they could keep it in a private setting (damage control).
Those two men are old, and I am much younger, and will most likely outlive them both, and will not stop calling them to accountability, EVER, and in so many ways they will never see coming. If they die having never stood up and apologized appropriately, it will not be for lack of being constantly reminded that I am still here, still demanding it, still making it known, whether they are in Gaithersburg, Riverdale, Bowie, or hiding in Shakespeare’s Arden Forest. Their digging their heels in isn’t a devastating blow for me; its motivation and they might as well be filling up my gas tank. They could have simply acknowledged their wrongs and apologized years ago after getting my first letters, and I probably wouldn’t even be here. I haven’t pursued this for almost 20 years because of their “high quality care”, that’s for sure. I am here (among other places). I’m not going away.
anSGMmember said
….and mom said
I know some are patiently willing to wait for god to do something, but how do you know gods not patiently waiting for YOU to do something? If so, how long will he have to wait? I know this may sound irrelevant, coming from a non believer like myself, but the basis of it is still sound. “God” -to all the non believers- is only as real as the actual actions we see from his believers. Doesn’t your own bible say “In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”?
I believe that Justice is truth in action. Anne Frank once said “How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” Think of all the suffering people in the world, who for centuries waited for an end to the suffering, and history will tell us that with major changes it was because of the people who courageously took real action (in spite of the masses around them waiting and saying “this isn’t the time”). This IS the time. Its never too soon and never too late to call for action where truth and justice are concerned.
ExClcer, you are so right! It is due to people who have the strength and persistence that you have why most things get done in the world! I admire and respect your tenacity!
When I mentioned about “When I say the time is now, may not mean this day or this month” I was in no way trying to imply anyone should “sit and wait”, but rather speaking about patience of knowing the right time to “move”, to bring about the full story, and not just a couple of individuals, and you stated in response to the Wash Post request: “And I am almost sure that once/if the inevitable number of other victims come forward, whether its through a bog or through litigation or through a media outlet, the focus of the “story” will no longer be each individual story, but will more appropriately be the system that allowed or encouraged these stories to happen. ”
It IS time NOW for victims of all levels to speak up and come forward, so that the story is about the system!
BTW, I bet that is why they do not like to communicate via blogs or emails with any individual anymore, since you and Brent actually keep and refer to their written words!
exCLCer wrote: I know some are patiently willing to wait for god to do something, but how do you know gods not patiently waiting for YOU to do something? If so, how long will he have to wait? I know this may sound irrelevant, coming from a non believer like myself, but the basis of it is still sound. “God” -to all the non believers- is only as real as the actual actions we see from his believers. Doesn’t your own bible say “In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”?
Me: Totally agree! It’s well beyond time to “patiently” wait and take action. When I read about “patiently waiting” it make me think of all the older single women in SGM who have been “patiently waiting” for someone to go through the ritual of josh harris, I mean court them. Unfortunately, the vast majority of these women are still “patiently waiting” instead of getting out and meeting Christian men and seeing if they click. SGM/CLC/Josh and the rest WANT you to “patiently wait” and if that happens the whole thing will blow over.
ExCLCer, I hear your anger and I also feel much frustration reading posts where people just keeping hoping and hoping that these men will reform. It’s an outrage that anyone would continue covering for them by insisting that these stories should not be told to the media. Those who are abused have nothing to be ashamed of and if the media is seeking you out, let it be God’s vindication. This is still America.
“Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow.” Deut. 27:19
“Do not deprive the alien or the fatherless of justice…” Deut. 24:17
“Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him.” Job 29:12
“A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, is God in his holy dwelling.” Psalm 68:5
One thing you need to understand, ExCLCer, is that just because a few people paste the name “Christian” on their forehead and form a so-called “church” does not mean that the God of the universe stands behind them. You have confused the actions of these people for God, when these men are as far away from God as can be. God has nothing to do with them and they know nothing of Him. Even the demons can quote scripture.
ExCLCer, the way these blogs have come together, and now the media is interested in your story and those of others, shows there is a God in Heaven who has heard your cry. He loves you more than you know. Look at all the Christians on this board who would put their arms around you in love if they could. This is God’s love for you. Many of the people here who embrace you are real Christians. What happened to you in SGM has nothing to do with God.
I hope the Washington Post publishes the truth about SGM and I am standing beside you in this. It needs to happen. But you will feel true comfort only on the day you fall before Christ’s face in tears.
Don’t tell me I’m trying to convert you. That’s God’s job, not mine. But I am speaking the truth and somewhere deep inside you know it. You would not be here, if you didn’t.
Anyway, I share your upset.
Remember, as you think of all the clapping and adulation and making celebrities and idols out of leaders, that it is sheep doing it. And God can tear down SGM, but if the people don’t repent, they’ll just wander around until they find another strong hyperauthoritarian leader somewhere they can enable and feel good about, knowing how superior their church and leaders (and by extention, themselves) are. And they’ll spend the rest of their life never knowing what the real presence of God is like, what real love for the brethren is like, what real feeding on the word is like. They’ll be comfortable being lorded over and being superior, until death or the Lord comes for them.
At this point I don’t think anything short of a major burning fire of God, like nothing most of us have ever tasted, is going to change anything in SGM or the people willingly submitted to it. None of the minor “fixes” they talk about will change anything. Not 30 people to give imput, or improved polity, or lay elders, or this or that. It is riddled to the core. People need to repent and get out.
Yes, 5yearsinPDI.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A6lWl_XzKA
I need to go off topic here for a moment and respond to a previous thread. We have been out of town and missed some significant conversation that I want to respond to now. I haven’t read the dialog but Phoenix and I were having breakfast and she mentioned it to me. This is in reference to BP from Fairfax being involved in financial impropriety. I was told this, with very few details, by a member of Fairfax pastoral team while we were in the throws of dealing with the abuse of our daughter.
Griz and I have a great deal of affection for this family. Really! I understand why many people were angry at this revelation but understand this didn’t change the way we felt about this family. You don’t stop caring about someone because they screwed up. But if the person who screwed up doesn’t own up to it, tries to hide it, etc it can only get worse. I have to wonder….are you all just paying lip service to the whole concept that you are capable of any sin? Do you not believe that you are capable of sexual sin, financial sin, sins that are not Sunday morning appropriate?
Read this blog. We are talking about close relationships, loving relationships, families. Pastors sinning against the church members, pastors sinning against fellow pastors, church members sinning against eachother etc. If we didn’t feel the need to hide and conceal these sins this blog may not exist. This blog is not about a list of “oh, so and so sinned, boo hoo” It’s about the damage that has been inflicted on countless Christians by people that have a need to control.
People, you must see this! I just found the full sermon with video.
http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?138004-WARNING!-Run-from-False-Teachers-%28youtube-video%29
exCLCer #70–
Once again you’ve nailed it. I’ve been thinking about your posts so much and so appreciate your contribution here. Thank you for continuing to call these men to account for their actions. We will join you in seeking to give a voice to those who cannot speak up for themselves; those who have been wounded so badly that they feel they have no voice; and those who may be afraid. We will pray and write and act as we are able. If not now, when? If not us, who?
I must ask how it is that these pastors, who have clearly hurt your family in deep and abiding ways, continue to have their ears closed to cries for justice. How is it that repeated attempts to contact them over many years continue to go unanswered? I simply don’t understand this, particularly in light of Jesus’ words in Matthew 5: 23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.” Surely they must remember that there are many who have something against them. How can they possibly think that they are rendering acceptable worship to God on Sunday mornings (or at any other time) when they show such disregard for people they have injured over the years?
Some commenter on this blog has rightly brought up Ezekiel 34 several times in the past. It bears looking at again. If those who are shepherds of the flock at Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg and Sovereign Grace Church in Fairfax would take time to prayerfully (a la Psalm 139: search me, O God, and know my heart) and humbly (for real!) get on their faces before God with Ezekiel 34 open before them, surely they would have to recognize themselves as among the shepherds God, through his prophet Ezekiel, is calling out. Now is the time to repent and to make things right.
Lauren, that was beautiful. Thank you.
Patricia, post #73 :amen
Noel, you said:
This is so true.
Another off topic comment… Was trolling the net and found this:
http://www.newcov.net/#/church-re-plant/family-meeting-73111
7/31/11
New Covenent Church (NCC) Family Meeting
Purpose: To report the current status of our efforts with Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) and open up a Q&A dialog with the congregation.
To anyone who was at the family meeting — What did they say about the relationship between CLC and SGM?
yes Roadwork #82 – I posted the link to that yesterday…..they explained away the concerns with Dave Harveys explanation….laughable if it weren’t so pathetic.
Thanks and sorry about that. I have not been able to keep up lately.
If they only take Harvey’s side of the story and want to ignore the rest, there’e not much to do. I waonder if they’ve mentioned the blogs to their membership? Hah. Funny if it weren’t so sad.
@exCLCer,
FYI: I was the source of that email exchange among the “top dogs” at SGM in this post that you reference: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=1927
I will send that full email exchange to anyone who is interested. Email me: FirstNameLastName [at] gmail [dot] com. (for those that don’t know my last name is Russell).
I don’t care what Tim Challies says! I’m happy to be a “whistle blower.”
Well said!
yes and thank you for that, Kerrin, and for reposting the link. I thought it was very telling of the real concern they had over the blogs, and in such stark contrast to the “we are so grieved over your disappointment” attitude they tried to display publicly.
Patricia & Seeking, thank you for your support in my call for action.
For anyone who is afraid that public outing of the issues will be damaging to church and believers, I would say, truth only gets truer with time and scrutiny. Truth fears no questions.
Hi Stunned #66… I said probably because of the previous sentence “Josh is probably getting beaten up on all sides. He’s catching it here, at refuge, and at work.” The rabbit that sticks his head out of the hole is the one that gets shot at. No matter what he says, SOMEBODY is not going to like it. If he opens his mouth and says he’s outraged at what happened to exclcer and her family and sgmnot’s family he catches it from Gary, John and maybe even CJ. If he backtracks the way he did the other night he catches it here. We want to give him the benefit of the doubt as long as he is walking in integrity but he has to live and work in a fishbowl. Every move and utterance he makes is scrutinized heavily. Two steps forward and one step back is slow, agonizing progress. But it is progress.
Just mentioning the blogs went against his mentor. Referring to them gives them more and more credence. Two steps forward. Greg reaching out “on behalf of the pastors…” another 2 steps. But Greg took a beating here and didn’t dialogue. Greg and Josh took a beating here and at the office over Greg’s offer. So Josh moonwalked back. Duck and cover. One or two steps back. SGM offices in the same bldg as CLC means he sees Gary and probably CJ everyday. So he’s trying not to get shot at from all corners.
Exclcer’s story, posted for the world to see, might have been a nuke lobbed at him. Yellow’s list of things he left out when he told her story guarantees it will come up again. Again and again and again until it is dealt with properly. Her outrage and persistance for justice guarantee it too.
Me, I want the media to shine a light so bright into it that there is NO more darkness to hide in.
@5years in PDI, comment 74. I read your post to my wife, she thought I wrote it. God has blessed you with the gift of discernment brother. Spot on post!
:goodpost :clap
:new
i haven’t posted, but have been reading on the blogs long enough to feel like i ‘know’ so many of you (and probably do). before i even start i have to say that i would love nothing more than to meet with some of you and give you a great big hug. and i’d also love to meet LUCY and just sit and drink some coffee & chat for hours. i have never ‘met’ you, lucy, but i ADORE you :)
my journey began when SGM was PDI. i spent over a decade in the ‘establishment.’ there is so much i COULD share…but won’t. at least not now.
the reason i am coming out of lurker status is because i had a dream the other night that has continued to stay in my thoughts. i don’t have ROOM for any extra stuff in there :scratch …so i figure if i post it, maybe i can make room for some of the things i’m actually SUPPOSED to be thinking about. :spin so here it is:
picture the scene in titanic when all the people are floating in the water…and there is chaos…now, add to that niagara falls looming off in the distance.
that is where i found myself in my dream. instead of clinging to random objects floating in the water, i was clinging to a person. only the person wasn’t REAL. it was one of those old-timey mannequins…you know…the ones where you have to ‘pop’ their arms and legs into place?
in any case, THAT is what i was clinging to…as were many others in the water. as the falls got closer and the situation became more dire, the ‘arm’ that i was clinging to POPPED OFF. it was SHOCKING…and TERRIFYING…
and then i woke up.
EXCLC’er…my heart hurts for the pain your family has endured (mom, you too…) there is SUCH strength and clarity in your words, ex. please know, though, that what you have experienced is NOT REFLECTIVE of the TRUE BODY OF CHRIST.
i DO believe that there are people who are sincere and love the Lord that are in SGM. however, i also believe that they (as a group) are NOT operating as they are supposed to be. it is counterfeit. it is NOT real. and it is being disassembled.
i don’t even know if any of that makes sense (it does inside MY head LOL).
it has taken decades of ‘un-doing’ the fear of man, the legalism, the doubt that the God of this universe really CAN reveal his truth directly to me rather than THRU someone else who is ‘above’ me.
let us all be careful not to hold onto anything less than the TRUE, REAL body.
i am so, so very thankful that the Lord had mercy on me when others did not. i am thankful that he has allowed my mistakes to be redeemed. and i hope and pray that LIBERTY and JUSTICE will be served in this entire situation.
thanks for letting me share.
@ Liberty… :amen :goodpost I love it.
@Liberty – about a month ago, I had dreams on consecutive nights about Larry Tomczak, C.J., and then Lon Solomon (used to attend McLean Bible church, which was a good church, no known leader control or abuse). Hopefully I processed the emotions I needed to, because those “leader dreams” have stopped. But after observing all the stuff at CLC/SGM and having my last pastor exposed as a liar/control freak earlier this year, it’s exhausting.
May God be glorified in all of this!
Alpologist, thank you for the very kind encouragement.
I should tell you though, that I am a sister, not a brother.
I hope it was OK for me to leave the kitchen to express my thoughts, instead of only allowing my husband to speak for me. I also must confess that I have not one but TWO junk drawers full of lids and string and wire and nails and old tools and cooking thermometers and other junk. Plus my counters have appliances on them, and sugar and honey and a jar of ovaltine and a plate with butter and a crock with spatulas and spoons. So I guess I better head back to the kitchen. (this is just inside joking around and if it makes no sense just forget it. Thanks again!)
liberty!!
wow!! That dream was amazing – I can understand why you’d want to get it out of your head and tell us!
Ah yes, Kris…the “reformed celebrity culture.” :barf:
These guys’ (who wrote these articles) worst fears have come to pass.
Tim Brister wrote this over 4 years ago.
I especially liked this. Wonder what he would say in light of the mess within SGM today?
Carl Trueman said this in an article.
And Nathan White said this in an article titled, “Reformed Celebrity Culture? What about a Celebrity Culture of Bloggers?.”
@ 5yrsin PDI: I got what you were saying! :Approve: I love a junk drawer! Keeps all the junk in one (or two, or more) places! :Wink:
From Tim Bristers quote:
But let us be sober enough to realize that anything or anyone who merits our attention or appreciation more than Christ turns them into nothing less than idols in our own hearts.
Thanks kindred for posting :goodpost
Just suggested on Challies blog that he write his next post on the rights and wrongs of blackmailing ones ministry colleagues. My post was swiftly deleted. I wonder why?
I’ve been fed up with the “christian celebrity bunch” for a LONG time. I won’t read or listen to anything they say. And I’m not alone – praise God!
The reformed bunch are guilty of the same “celebrity crap” that they came on the scene accusing others of.
5 years in PDI, oops sorry sister, and thanks again for that post, you said it better than I ever could! :D