“Ambassadors of Reconciliation” Issue Report
August 26, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
The “Ambassadors Of Reconciliation” have issued their report. You can download it here.
Apparently, C.J. Mahaney has been declared “fit for ministry.”
EDITED TO ADD: Actually, “Ambassadors of Reconciliation” was only quoting from the preliminary outside panel made up of Ray Ortlund, Kevin DeYoung, and Carl Trueman. AoR’s final statement on the issue of C.J.’s fitness for ministry was that AoR is not qualified to make a judgment on the matter.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
To add one more question to Local Church Fan, based on comment #142:
I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts about how SGM’s systemic issues might be best addressed (a) within SGM as a denomination; and (b) among the wider conservative evangelical community.
@LocalChurchFan – you say SGM has evolved over past 15 years? No disagreement there. Here’s what you’re missing –
1. The “evolution” has come with no acknowledgement of wrong doing or apology even though mistakes were widespread and significant. This is either pride or incompetence but either way it doesn’t speak well of the SGM leadership.
2. There continues to be notable hypocrisy and incompetence in recent months – so while I applaud the change over 15 years, you are sadly mistaken if you believe all is well now.
Finally, I think what disappoints the membership is that the leaders who hold up the biblical virtues of humility show little of it. They might have written the book but it does not appear that they read it. Integrity is owning up to your mistakes. As a leader you can choose not to do so but you do so at the cost of forfeiting the respect of those who follow.
Biblical leadership is involves more than the confessionally accurate preaching – it also requires a life of example since those who follow are exhorted to consider the lives and example of their leaders Heb 13:7
wow some great thoughts happenning here now :clap
LCF I am sorry but I am not a bible scholar, just a mechanic so I cannot really answer your questions with a book like biblical answer you seem to lust after. You do seem frustrated ?
I keep thinking about the following two points, that should give any member of SGM serious cause for concern:
#1- Do you not find it OUTRAGEOUS that a problem within your own denomination needs the help of a 3rd party to sort it all out??? That is craziness. There should be something in your denomination’s governance to allow for airing of such issues.
#2- I find it interesting that Brent has made himself (literally and figuratively) an open book. He is inviting criticism. He is not running and hiding….why is no one as transparent in the SGM machine. To me, it seems obvious that Brent has nothing to hide and really has ‘cajones’…those who hide behind panels and use double-speak and flowery spiritual language…hmmm….makes you scratch your head.
Hi HighChurch,
I cannot speak for all, but for me, I am certainly mystified. Not that the church is acting the way it’s acting (it seems perfectly logical to me now, which is why I have next to no hope that any real change will happen), but that it took me years upon years for things to become clear to me. There were signs after signs, but I just couldn’t see clearly. It’s like that “can you see the gorilla” video. I just missed it, and now I’m like “Huh. How did I not see that?”
I, too, a starting to become apathetic. It’s just because there at first seemed to be genuine response, and now…especially after the AoR…this is all just spin, it seems. It’s like they aren’t bothering to even attempt to create the illusion of being objective. Using AoR, which is obviously tied to Peacemakers, which is obviously tied to SGM. Like I said before on Refuge: this is their way of saying if you don’t like it leave. We will not play by any outside rules. CJ doing what he likes in all of this: preaching, teaching, going to another church, taking an SMG salary; he’s just doing what he wants to do; again, if you don’t like it leave.
This is an organization that has always believed it has the monopoly on doctrine and discernment. So much so, it didn’t write any protocols down. They were special, and their “correct doctrine”/”correct interpretation” of the Bible, gave them the Alpha church status. The leaders had a direct, exclusive line to God, and in that case, nothing written was needed.
In their view, CJ has to be exonerated. There can be no other choice. They must use a partial arbiter, like AoR, that they have serious ties to, and they MUST NOT go outside themselves or their affiliations to deal with this. And they MUST find that they were right all along about CJ’s innocence and fitness for ministry, and Brent’s vile, self serving motives. Any other conclusion invalidates over 30 years of possessing the ultimate truth and the ultimate way. If they change, then they effectively admit that they aren’t really that special or different after all. They are just another church. And in the words of Lou Gallo, “That ain’t going to happen.”
LCF 142
Thank you for answering it is refreshing to dialogue even when disagreement is obvious. One of the many things that has been absent in clc is the ability to dialogue at all regarding these thoughts. It is now being prohibited in caregroup to discuss church polity and governance etc. We are to bring our concerns to the pastors and not discuss it among ourselves. This is one more evidence of censuring the voice of those who want to help the church, but instead are being treated as divisive and unloyal.
Many good things have been said in response to your comment on 142, by 148, 152, 154 and 147 with Rose saying when we have exhausted it all, Bring it to the church. Openly. I think exhausted is an understatement for many. This is what Brent had to do and is still facing opposition for. There is no end to Matt 18 in clc because they Never admit wrong or confess sin. Don’t you see there is no way at all to bring an observation or correction to the pastors that will bring about any confession of sin on their part?
How can they make positive changes on the foundation of unconfessed sins towards so many believers? They will not admit sin. They do not take responsiblity for the many sinful consequences of their legalistic teachings over some peoples entire lifetime. There are exmples of stunted growth experiences, being robbed of individual thinking, being praised for behaving a certain way and punished if you are off the mark just a little bit.
Many of us lived for years with our motives questioned constantly. We were made to feel inadequate in parenting if our children were not in loc step with others or showed individuality. When they rebelled, we were rejected and they were too because of their “bad influence” on others. Many were labeled foolish and isolated from others. If some were a little more expressive in their attire, hair, etc, they were questioned for “calling attention to themselves”. People were extremely harsh and there was wrong and hurtful unfair treatment of those who were not in cls or home schooled. Exclusivity was serious sin and favoritism is still evident now if you see what is going on with CJ.
We were told that if our children rebelled, it was from faulty parenting. There are so many examples of the problems that changed the course of a persons life. How can people just say “they are changing” when there are so many hurts, broken lives and pain at the foundation of their change?
You say we should not be able to just “do anything we want to do” regarding who and where we discuss these things? I would have been “happy” to agree to disagree. But, they will not admit sin or fault. They often do not have answers to basic questions. For example, if one of the pastors who is an owner of clc decides to leave can he take his money out of the church and just go? I still don’t have an answer for that question. Where are CJs son in laws going? Can CJ be fired? By who?
Believe me writing here is not because I just want to. But after the treatment we have had, and now we see many others with worse pain and worse experiences than we had. And with the lack of humility on their part, now I am here also to warn others or to perhaps give information that will open their eyes to allow them to see the destructive authoritarian abuse that occurs in clc. Until specific sin is confessed and repented of, it can not change in a way that will Glorify God or benefit the members.
The constant search for sin still robs joy and does not reveal the true Heart of God towards his children. They do a sinful injustice to the members and do not teach an accurate view of the Love of God for us or towards unbelievers. The performance based teachings had many negative consequences that followed if conformity was not lived out. These were not at all optional teachings we could choose from.
From censoring books, lack of bible study, critiquing our vacation plans, They controlled and manipulated us and our way of life and it lacked freedom in Christ. To say they are “changing” is offensive and hurts even deeper. Why are they changing everything? What was wrong with it? It used to be our Doctrine? It is like having a picnic and a party on a gravesite to me. They harmed many many people, Their sin is serious and grieves God. Why can’t and won’t they just say that.
These forced rules and standards robbed many people of their individual choices in loving God and following the Holy Spirit in their own lives. Condemnation and Fear is still the foundation of many of the people there.
These examples along with hundreds of others, have been given over many years, many different ways and are difficult to express. The depth of the harm done to the psyche of an individual is wide ranging. These types of sins done to others, requires discussion and open hearts to bring repentence and honest change. Now they are stopping discussions and reading. They have made attempts because of Joshua but we see that nothing can be accomplished without CJ’s approval and authority. He is still the boss over there. We are the body of Christ, we are the wider body.
Argo:
BINGO!!!
:goodpost
I haven’t exhaustively read all the comments in this stream — this is MY disclaimer -so please excuse if I am being redundant.
It is far, far too late for any of us to worry about the effect on the world of unbelievers when the dirty laundry of the church is aired before them. Centuries too late. I’ve often thought (with some hideous exceptions) that Christians have done worse things to each other throughout our history than any “outsiders.” And Christians, to our shame (thank God for his grace and forgiveness through the finished work of the Christ) have often been complicit in the evil of the world. The Inquisition. Much of the church in Europe turning a blind eye to the Holocaust and the long history of the septic anti-Semitism (Jew = Christ-killer) that encouraged it. Christians who wanted the Bible to be available in the vernacular (instead of just in Latin) being burned. Burned alive by other Christians. Borgia popes. A long, long trail of televangelists fallen to the tackiest of sins. Public “christian” greed that makes reality TV Hollywood bling look austere. White churches in the south deploying bouncers to be sure black families were turned away while members of the Klan sat inside singing hymns. Church organizations, God have mercy, covering up child rape. This is part of our story, folks.
And by God’s grace, so is the other stuff. Dietrich Bonhoeffer. White christians marching for civil rights. Monasteries providing the only safety for travelers in medieval Europe. The earliest christians rescuing exposed babies. Christians establishing the first hospitals and universities in Europe. Martyred missionaries and missionaries faithfully serving for their lifetimes. Christians running soup kitchens, homeless shelters, hospice organizations. Christian practicing daily unheralded acts of kindness and speaking quiet words of grace.
Most of you who are reading this could certainly add to both of these lists and/or could argue the merits of any item on either list. My point is that the reality of the Church Universal through history is (like Jesus) both divine and human. Full of private and public good. Unlike Jesus, full of private and public sin. Messy.
“Unbelievers” know this, even if they can’t recite church history or the current “he said-she saids.” I don’t think they turn away from Jesus because of this very often where it is openly and humbly acknowledged by Christians. I could be wrong of course, and I’m going in part on my own visceral reactions to coverups and hypocrisy in the name of “reputation.” I think unbelievers are drawn by the Holy Spirit to “the Gospel with feet and hands,” humble, real, sinful relatable believers.
I actually think that when it comes to these silly church antics, unbelievers have a very good b.s. detector, probably better than that of the SGM member with a need or desire to “believe the best.”
I think at least some SGM members have confused “the gospel” with SGM’s reputation. I know that some SGM leaders have. We can see this in the line where “the blogs” were discussed and someone (it might have been Dave Harvey, I can’t remember anymore and don’t have the time right now to go look it up) actually said something to the effect that addressing the blogs could have “gospel implications.” Like, if SGM acknowledged its bad press, that would somehow take away from the power of what Jesus did for us.
If anything would turn off an unbeliever to the gospel, it’d have to be this notion, that the historical fact of Jesus’ redemptive work through the cross and His resurrection could somehow be blighted by the mistakes of these arrogant men.
Local Church Fan said:
“And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts”
And LCF also asked for scriptural basis for this type of blogging.
LCF, I believe you were quoting from Col. 3:15?
The word rule in that verse means to umpire, decide, and the surrounding verses have to do with getting along with each other. So for me this is one scriptural basis for me to blog here about SGM. Until I have the ‘peace’ of God (theos, not anointed in Col. 3:15) regarding SGM abuse, my comments will continue. I do agree however, that the rest of the context does allow us to show our love for SGM members while we speak our interpretations of correction into their church mess.
Re: Scriptural basis for blogging, use of pseudonyms, pen names, etc. Oh, I don’t know, when I read about Puritan pamphleteers and their public calling-out of injustices and grievances, it gives some different perspective into the current hand-wringing over proper “Biblical” techniques for bringing church problems to light. Take a look, for instance, at Joad Raymond’s Pamphlets and Pamphleteering in Early Modern Britain.
With all that is going in the church and in the world, I was encouraged in the Lord this morning with Gen 9:15,16 Thought it would be an encouragement to my blog family/church. — (I think I am breaking the rules Guy and Kris, so I guess I am asking forgiveness rather than permission.) :D
God does not say, and “I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh.” (Genesis 9:15) but it is gloriously put, not upon our memory, which is fickle and frail, but upon God’s memory, which is infinite and immutable.
When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant (vs 16).” Oh! it is not my remembering God, it is God’s remembering me which is the ground of my safety; it is not my laying hold of his covenant, but his covenant’s laying hold on me.
Glory be to God! the whole of the fortifications of salvation are secured by divine power, and even the minor towers, which we may imagine might have been left to man, are guarded by almighty strength. Even the remembrance of the covenant is not left to our memories, for we might forget, but our Lord cannot forget the saints whom he has graven on the palms of his hands.
It is with us as with Israel in Egypt; the blood was upon the lintel and the two side-posts, but the Lord did not say, “When you see the blood I will pass over you,” but “When I see the blood I will pass over you.” My looking to Jesus brings me joy and peace, but it is God’s looking to Jesus which secures my salvation and that of all his elect, since it is impossible for our God to look at Christ, our bleeding Surety, and then to be angry with us for sins already punished in him.
No, it is not left with us even to be saved by remembering the covenant. There is no linsey-wolsey here–not a single thread of the creature mars the fabric. It is not of man, neither by man, but of the Lord alone. We should remember the covenant, and we shall do it, through divine grace; but the hinge of our safety does not hang there–it is God’s remembering us, not our remembering him; and hence the covenant is an everlasting covenant.
:mic
5yearsin PDI #158,
Well said. Once again SGM employs deception by stating to their loyal subjects that an “impartial” third party would be used to review CJ.
I’m with Argo #156. I too am apathetic and have lost hope for much change. It’s true that they have to exonerate C.J. because of their limited worldview. It’s disheartening, and I find it difficult when I talk to SGM members who simply tow the party line without questioning anything. Aren’t we all adults? I’m finding it difficult to not be apathetic and disheartened about church.
Most “unbelievers” don’t bother to read blogs such as this one, Refuge, TWW, etc. Why should they? They’re not believers. It doesn’t interest them or concern them.
Trust me, unfortunately I know a lot of unbelievers. Some are my relatives. This stuff just doesn’t interest them. It makes me wonder if SGMers ever spend any time with unbelievers to know what they’re really like. :scratch
But some of you are absolutely correct about an unbeliever taking notice when a Christian addresses the “ugly, icky, messy, nasty stuff”, especially when it’s going on among their “own” and not just the “world.” Now *THAT* gets their attention.
Jesus was REAL. His message spoke the loudest to the messiest and ickiest of all people (folks he didn’t mind hanging out with, I might add). I think it got their attention when they overheard Him addressing the Pharisees and church leaders. They had witnessed these men acting better than everyone else (perfect in every way) all their lives; to hear Jesus “call them out” opened their eyes to “GOD’s WAY of doing life” and they liked what they saw – grace, mercy, love, compassion…and TRUTH AND JUSTICE! He didn’t hesitate to call a spade a spade, and neither did His apostles after Him when they were building the church and encountering problems among themselves.
#157
…”These types of sins done to others, requires discussion and open hearts to bring repentence and honest change. Now they are stopping discussions and reading. They have made attempts because of Joshua but we see that nothing can be accomplished without CJ’s approval and authority. He is still the boss over there. We are the body of Christ, we are the wider body…”
God can do miracles in people’s life, in small or large organizations and in whatever church we attend or are members of. You admitted that there were some “attempts” because of Joshua, don’t you think the Holy Spirit is at work. CJ just like all of us are accountable to God for everything we do or teach. The Lord will deal with CJ, I am sure it is dealing with him right now. Let’s keep praying and keep our eyes in Jesus, change may take time, but if we are even remotely hearing God’s Holy Spirit, it will happen. I do believe that Josh is listening to God, I am praying for him. If pride or self-rightneousness closes our reason and our hearts to the change that God wants, then there will be consequences of our actions. Let’s keep the Body of Chrit whether within SGM or outside SGM lifted up in prayer.
In response to FooFighter. My comments in parenthesis:
Kris,
Have you read the report? The intention was not to declare anyone fit for ministry, but rather to advise the SGM Board about how to proceed in this situation.
(Kris was right to point out that AoR does reference the prelim’s decision that he is fit. Seems a biased and out of place preface to this official, impartial document to me.)
There were a number of items in the report that I would think would be encouraging to you and your readers.
(They would be more encouraging if I thought that any real change would result from them. However, AoR neglected to recommend the single best thing the fix the problem: write down protocols to ensure consistency (and make them available to members, I would add. They noted the absence of written practices, but never recommended the solution.)
1) Recognition of SGM’s faulty structures and lack of due process to bring a concern from the laity to the leadership.
(Good observation, however, it seems that AoR is getting paid to state the obvious. Unfortunately, the very obvious solution was not stated: write down due process bylaws. Brent has always said that SGM is reticent to put its perspectives in writing where they can be seen and referenced. My opinion is, since it wasn’t recommended, it will never happen.)
2) Recognition that there was a lack of grace and forgiveness when confessing sins.
(I could be wrong, but I felt like they were directing these points to SGMs critics, not at SGM.)
3) Recognition that the board still has further to go in terms of seeking out reconciliation with Brent and others that have been offended.
(This part actually felt slightly creepy to me. They said that the word “go” meant more than e-mails, phone calls, etc. It meant face to face. I would argue that point. I think that is an opinion on what Jesus was saying. Go and be reconciled could very well mean e-mail, or phone calls. What if you are in Albany and your brother is manning an outpost in Antarctica? You see this is more of how they make an interpretation into a biblical truth. I’m never comfortable with such definitive statements that are so easy to counter with “but what if” in a matter of seconds. At any rate, Brent has refused multiple times face-to-face communication until his conditions are met. To continue to pursue face to face meetings when it’s clear Brent is not interested seems a little unsettling…almost like, we will pursue you whether you like it or not.)
A Kindred Spirit said #166:
“Jesus was REAL. His message spoke the loudest to the messiest and ickiest of all people (folks he didn’t mind hanging out with, I might add). I think it got their attention when they overheard Him addressing the Pharisees and church leaders. They had witnessed these men acting better than everyone else (perfect in every way) all their lives; to hear Jesus “call them out” opened their eyes to “GOD’s WAY of doing life” and they liked what they saw – grace, mercy, love, compassion…and TRUTH AND JUSTICE! He didn’t hesitate to call a spade a spade, and neither did His apostles after Him when they were building the church and encountering problems among themselves.”
Such a good point!
Also, going back to the panel selection thing, the bigger challenge is finding ANYONE who is impartial SGM. Even our mediator, the one who told us we were sinfully craving answers according to James 4, we recently discovered he is a conference speaker for Peacemakers and obtained some of his training from them. We didn’t stand a chance. :(
FormerCLC’er,
Don’t be discouraged by the actions of some in SGM leadership. They misrepepresent the gospel and the Lord’s church by attempting to build His church in their name. Religious leaders have been doing this since the beginning of time. But God’s perfect plan for His church will be accomplished in the earth regardless of man’s agenda.
I’m with you on growing apathetic.
And I’ve had it with the “reformed big dogs” turning their heads for the sake of their own precious “movement.” They’ve become “party hardliners.” They make me sick! :barf:
The Kingdom of God is not ran like politics.
167 When you ask if I believe that the Holy Spirit is at work? Yes, however, I will also say that, Joshua and these men say they are praying for wisdom and direction. We know that when someone admits sin, when they become open, honest, transparent, and available to answer any and all questions, then God is at work doing something there. When people who’s sin is exposed and then they partially confess, but still refuse to acknowledge truth, or answer questions, I also see another spirit at work in that.
I think this is a battle for reputation, and fear of financial loss. I think these things over-ride everything else. The repsonsible thing to do in light of all this would be to have CJ removed for a season if he does not step down, with a reduction in salary and benefits, and then he would return only after the members or the committee which is chosen by the members (not the pastors) would agree that he is able to return to ministry. We should all be able to ask questions and evaluate the answers he gives for ourselves. We do not need a committee to inform us of anything. We also do not need to pay a dime for a committee to tell us what we ourselves have already told the pastors.(Poor financial stewardship).
Brent should receive a formal written apology and his salary should be retroactive from the beginning of all this and his benefits restored. The pastors should write a formal apology to the church and be available to answer their questions as well. They should all be willing and greatful in light of the sufferings of Christ, to offer up any restitution to the many that have suffered and come to them only to be rejected and discarded. This would be a move of the Holy Spirit I think.
Okay. I’m now fixated on this one leeetle point in the document that’s really bugging me. Under “Recommendation #2: Group Reconciliation Assistance,” it says this:
///Scripture provides that if the other party “refuses to listen” (another scripture reference here for all of us unfamiliar, you know, with the scripture :roll:), then one should bring one or two others along to establish the testimony of two or three witnesses. This can be accomplished through mediation — asking fellow Christians to come alongside both parties to facilitate dialogue, providing a safe environment, and counseling them according to God’s Word to encourage reconciliation.///
All right. Maybe I’m reading Matthew 18:16 wrong, but doesn’t that verse seem to be saying that the witnesses are brought by the *offended/wronged party*? Am I wrong on this? (If so, I’m willing to be enlightened by someone with bigger smartypants than I currently possess.) As I read that verse, I see no reference to “mediation,” but rather, to “testimony” — that the offended/wronged party should bring witnesses who will also present corroborating evidence (testimony) as to the wrong done against them.
The Ambassadors obviously seem a bit OC/DC about punctuating every sentence with a scripture reference, but here, they seem to be stretching their reference to suit THEIR purposes, not God’s. They start off correctly paraphrasing the scripture, AND THEN GO ON TO INFER from scripture that the bringing of witnesses means that BOTH parties bring witnesses. But is that what it means? Is that what it says? I’ve never read it that way myself.
Granted, this is standard SGM practice. Find yourself naughty enough to be raising an issue and they WILL bring their witnesses to testify as to your generalized naughtiness, but where are they getting this from this verse? I understand WHY, psychologically, they do this to anyone daring to raise an issue, but I see NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS for any “reconciliation” devolving into a bullying session or a “my dad can beat up your dad” situation. It bothers me that they’re falling back on this verse as a rationalization for bullying, essentially, or further sin-sniffing of the impudent and willful independent thinkers. ;-)
I’ve always taken that verse to mean that the “testimony” of further witness will hopefully serve to shake the conscience of the offender so that reconciliation can actually take place, so that it doesn’t need to go any further, NOT so there can be a kind of Jets vs. Sharks holy rumble that only does greater damage to already wounded people.
(Please excuse the caps. I’m not yelling. I don’t know how to do html tags. Shameful.)
@ Rose 147 ~ :clap
LCF, #142 said “No one thinks SGM is perfect. Is that the impression you have? SGM has evolved. Their theology and their structure is different then 5 years ago and there are still things to be worked through I am sure.
My desire has never been to defend a person, church or denomination. My questions concern the means that believers are choosing to broadcast it.
Today I’m remembering 2 different preacher/pastors who were discussed publicly – preached about, or preached against, actually, from the pulpit in my former SG church. That was public, recorded recriminations against 2 (at least) nationally known members of the Body of Christ, that I remember. There was no Matthew 18 process before this former pastor felt free to disrespect and dishonor other servants of God and brothers/sisters in the Lord.
I’m sure there were others. Was PromiseKeepers discouraged or criticized publicly? I know it was systematically discouraged by CGL’s in NoVa the year PK gathered in DC.
Other Christian therapists or counselors, from SGM pulpits or articles?
I know others have cited Scripture references to bringing charges against elders by 2 or more. There are more than 2 mentioned/named in Brent’s documents.
I’m late posting this but I just had to add it. And I’d be fascinated to hear of other public, from the pulpit (so to speak) announcements that have been declared about others. I don’t think our experience is isolated. And I’m sure Matthew 18 wasn’t followed or even mentioned in all those messages against Christian therapy.
Jim wrote a profound statement on the refuge
SGC members agree to attend. CJ has left CLC. CJ must either resign his membership, or the elders of CLC must begin Matt 18. As an autonomous church, neither CJ or the board can dictate how CLC deals with a wayward member. CLC elders have a Biblical responsibility to show no favoritism, and to begin Matt 18 immediately.
Sorry for using your post on here Jim. But i thought it was so perfectly stated that trying to reword it would have ended up being a hack job.
Anyways Jim is 100% right!!!!
The day C.J. Left CLC to go to another church was the day that he admitted to his true sinful intent!!!
Josh stand up not for us or your church. Stand up for Gods word.
HowDee YaAll,
Doesn’t SGM continue to have a top-down leadership structure with no formal accountability to “any” of it’s members, n’est-ce pas?
Huh?
…for dat matter doesn’t AoR declared that in their very understanding of the SGM founding documents? -There simply is no requirement to do so, i.e. : for SGM to be accountable to “any” of it’s rabble, Ahem! members…(grin)
What?
It is simply not written anywhere in those founding SGM documents, (to speak of, right?) hence the makings of a tyranny from it’s (SGM) very inception, making it a systemic problem, as Kris says: “a structural problem”, right?
When will this truth see the light of day: Why O’ why should SGM start now?
(sad face)
Sopy 8)
—-
“SGM continues to have a top-down leadership structure with no formal accountability to the average member.” Comment # 148;
https://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=2843&cp=3#comment-44271
Defended-
CovFel had some books by Larry Crabb for sale on the book table, and the CLC care group leaders were all given his (excellent) book “The Marriage Builder”. Right before they were going to start to go through it, suddenly it was banned, and Larry Crabb was publically denounced as psychobabble.
To those aware of the behind the scenes shenanigans, Powlison had begun a nitpicky war for perfection in biblical counseling, which included a war particularly on Crabb, who was much more popular than him. (inc. many PCA churches) Now this was when CJ had suddenly come under Powlison’s influence and was going to start teaching biblical counseling in PDI.
Now as we all know, Powlison had a model of the fallen human heart which was heavily- if not entirely- reduced to an idol factory, and everything in the heart became an idol.
Crabb presented a model of fallen humans who hunger and thirst, but drink from all the wrong sources and do not eat the only real bread that can satisfy. It is an entirely biblical model supported all over the OT and the NT, especially with Jesus exhorting people to eat and drink of Him, and Him the only one who can satisfy the inner longings/hunger.
To be very fair and as gracious as possible to Powlison, bending over backwards, at times when Crabb talked about “legitimate creational longings”…ie, it is creationally legitimate to want to get married and have kids, have a fulfilling life, have close fellowship, significance in the world, security, etc, Crabb could have parsed his sentences in a way that did more fully deliniate where such longings became idols and are not legitimate (good and bad ambition for ministry for example), and where even our longings themselves are fallen, all of them.
Obviously if you long to have sex with an 11 year old, or have a lesbian lover, that is not creationally legitimate, whereas a 25 year old girl longing to marry a wonderful Christian brother/friend probably is legitmate…but it could be an idol if it obsesses her, it can be a subtle distinction. Crabb is clear that we have to lay ALL of them down, every one, and only Jesus Christ can meet those deepest longings and be our security, significance, closest friend, lover, and meet the inner ache. But for Powlison- and then CJ-even the longings are sinful. The hunger and thirst itself is sin.
Anyway, in the great war about idols and longings, which later got patched up when Powlison and Crabb wrote sweet and lovely forwards in each others books, and Crabb cleaned up his presentation a bit and Powlison upped his compassion levels in his own presentations…..CJ grabbed the idols of the heart model and ran with it. And yeah, he denounced good men and brethren from the pulpit. But that was OK, he was an apostle guarding the flock from psychobabble, so he could do it as the voice of God.
What happened in PDI-SGM was that longings were seen not as our legitimate creational make up to lead us to Christ and trusting Him, like physical hunger and thirst are good things to make us take care of our body, but instead, even the inner longings were idols to be repented of. A guy wants to be a pastor, it is an idol. A girl likes a guy, it is an idol. Every frigging thing is an idol. Everthing is pride and idolatry. Meanwhile, the fountain to drink from- the holy spirit, and life in the spirit- gets a backhoe full of dirt dumped in by shepherding error doctrines coming from the great apostles.
What is so sad to me is that my former pastor at Living Hope Church told my husband and I at our last meeting before we left “I will follow CJ, as CJ follows Christ. I emailed him when the CJ story broke and asked if he was still sticking to that statement. He said that CJ is a spiritual father to him, so why wouldn’t he? Here is the link to my story: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/08/22/no-professional-counseling-advised-one-womans-sad-story/
I am disappointed. I sent the link to my story to a few folks that I had considered close friends at my former SGM church. Not one of them has responded yet. I think since we left and now the CJ stuff, the pastor has “educated” them well about gossip and slander. I know for a fact when we left the pastor told them to avoid any “arguments” with us. Their way to deal with it is just to ignore — this from folks who claimed to be my friend. I pray that folks from Living Hope Church are reading and saddened. While I am concerned about hurting the pastor and his wife, I am more concerned that no one experience more harm because their counsel prevents them from getting the professional help they need. I can think of a few folks who would probably benefit from outside help. This is why I was willing to share my story. I don’t want my pain to be in vain — I want God to use it to help others.
I am completely baffled as to why so many continue to regard the SGM machine as the church Christ founded.
What is described in post #159 describes the difference between the true church and the apostate church (which is not truly the church of God.) With all due respect, I do not believe that the heinous atrocities committed throughout history by men pasting the name Christian on their foreheads represent the true church of God. They were imposters, hypocrites, pharisees.
Real Christians are not perfect as we still commit sin, but the scriptures I read indicate that true Christians repent of sin and don’t wallow in it for extended periods of time over and over again, ad nauseum without a stricken conscience. Real Christians do not do the things we’re seeing being done in the upper echelon of SGM’s hierarchy. I say that with a Biblically grounded conscience. True Christians are overcomers through the power of the Holy Spirit working in our lives.
It saddens me when we Christians speak of religious groups like the SGM machine as having credibility in the eyes of our Lord. There are simply too many scriptures exposing religious hypocrites and pretenders to continue believing this. I guess this bothers me more than anything else on the blogs right now. Some talk as if the SGM machine is the true church Christ founded when it is simply a cult, a pretender. A few keep hoping that SGM will reform. Why should it? It’s a sick organization parading as the church of Christ.
The big reason given for not reporting the sexual abuse stories to the media is theoretically because the matter should be handled “within the church”. What church????? What are we thinking? Yes, there are Christians attending SGM churches. They represent the true church, but the machinations behind SGM’s hierarchy and those supporting it is plain evil. Those people have nothing to do with God. “By their fruits we know them.” They should be exposed just as Paul exposed the imposters parading as ministers during his time. Paul was very open about in warning the people that those men were misrepresenting the church of Christ.
For the few so concerned about how bad “the church” will look once the the Washington Post does a story on this, I will say that every time we on these blogs speak as though the SGM cult is a real church, we ourselves misrepresent the true church of our Lord. Just food for thought.
Good article…”When Community Becomes a Cult”
http://www.ptmin.org/Relevant.pdf
Two points:
1) SGM/CLC no longer have to pretend to do it right because the opinions of outsiders don’t matter, jut the opinions of those dropping cash in the many revenue streams. They have been polling the flock, realize that the years of proactive mental conditioning have been successful, and realized they can go back to business as usual now. I think the ease with which the members accepted the spin, the tightly controlled indoctrination sessions, and the obvious reversals by “godly” leaders like Harris surprised them. This reaction made the proactive defensive measures (independent review, a time away, reach out to the blogs, etc) largely irrelevant. It became clear over the past 2 months that the cult would survive, revenue would be slightly disrupted but not as much as they feared, and they would keep the million dollar homes and expensive stuff for the foreseeable future IF they all got back in line and locked the compound gates to outsiders. So they did, including Josh. At this point, the people who didn’t have “eyes to see” deserve the next 10 years of abusive leadership. There was a window. The apathetic congregations (even CLC) willfully closed it. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
2) my independent panel:
Ron Hutchcraft
Alistair Begg
Charles Stanley
Ravi Zacherias (not a pastor, but smart dude with an excellent BS detector)
Thank you ummm #116 for your reference to Mike Bickle’s 8/21/11 message “The Magnificance of Jesus” @ihop.org. I listened to it immediately and my heart was freshly warmed for more of Him alone! The “ihop” ministry has refreshed my spirit more than any I’ve ever known. When a number of us left some years ago, Bickle spoke at our church several times and it ignited a Fresh and Exhilarating desire for more of Jesus which has only intensified over the years in all of us. Jesus became my First Love again, instead of “The Movement” which I had imperceptively allowed to take His place in my heart over 20 years. I believe in this hour of history our Jealous Bridegroom is recapturing the heart of His Bride back to Himself alone! It’s a Wonderful thing and we know He wins in the end!
Oh, and clone Tozer from a DNA sample and add him to my panel. He saw this coming 50 years ago.
Kindred,
Good article. I think it describes what happened with SGM.
Concerned for the kids wrote:
“Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.”
One of the greatest and ever-appropriate lines in the history of rock, from T :clap he Who, Won’t Get Fooled Again.
Concerned for the kids, absolutely brilliant. Totally appropriate.
Well, seeings as how I won’t be going to my SGM church much longer, any of you have any suggestions? I’ve been with SGM since the mid 90s, so I’ve lost touch with what’s out there.
Funny how that works when you’re inside.
Concerned4kids #181: OMG! Definitely Ravi Zacharias!! He is brilliant and very clear!
Lucy,
I agree with your observation about AoR’s twisting of that verse to suit their purposes.
Matter of fact, the entire “Go and Be Reconciled” section of the report struck me as inappropriately aggressive. You can’t make another individual reconcile with you. And especially considering that control has been a dominant quality in SGM’s behavior toward members, AoR seems to demonstrate a major lack of insight into the organization in advocating that SGM work so ferociously toward “reconciliation.”
(What does “reconciliation” even mean, anyway? What does it look like? Does it mean the “wayward” member will hug the offending pastor? Does SGM pay money to its victims? Does SGM pay for professional Christian counseling for those who request it? Does “reconciliation” involve SGM’s making restitution? Does “reconciliation” mean that former members sign off that “all is now well” between them and SGM? I don’t know. But it seems like such a vague touchy-feely term to use as a recommendation in a report like this.)
I actually think AoR’s instructions to SGM sound disturbingly stalkerish. What most of SGM’s victims want is for SGM to acknowledge publicly what was done, and then demonstrate that they are no longer doing those things to anyone. There’s no need to go tracking random people down.
And finally – was it just me, or did anyone else think it started to feel like this “go and be reconciled” command in the report was seeing SGM as primarily the good guys, and those pesky bloggers who have problems with SGM as the malcontent bad guys?
Frankly, if I were one of the former members whom AoR has in mind here, this would make me nervous, like I was a kid about to be tracked down by the principal.
Dave Harvey put up a new video
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Video-Answering-your-questions.aspx
I think a lot of people have made some excellent points in the last rash of posts. I distinctly remember our pastors denouncing other pastors and books and music and versions of the Bible from the pulpit. It is okay for them to denounce, but watch out if they are denounced. Such a double standard.
And secondly, as I read the AoR article I had to chuckle. I love that it is completely independent…yet, it’s m.o. is that of SGM itself…”here reference Ken Sande’s book by such and such chapters. Follow procedure and voila! You are reconciled”. This comes across extremely canned and disingenuous to me. And, it certainly doesn’t make me feel like this report is unbiased.
Just watched the video…..
When he said group reconciliation do you think they wanna fly all of us to CLC for one big meeting. Because im not going without all of you :mic
I can’t watch that video, I tried, but I just can’t. More of the same old same old. What a PR team they got there at SGM. Incredible.
:barf: :barf: :barf:
btw: the side camera angle thrown in there was a nice touch. How authentic. :/
Watching the video…. One of two possibilities:
1. This man is seriously delusional.
2. This is a screen test for an upcoming bit on Saturday Night Live.
Some immediate thoughts re: video
1. From 7:05 to 7:20, instead of minimizing that “in the past, there may have been some of that [not explicitly taught by anyone Dave Harvey knew of]” or “[it] may have somehow been assumed,” it could have been clearly stated that, yes, over SGM’s history, there *had* been a culture of “cookie-cutter Christianity” and a “cult of personality.”
2 From 9:19 to 9:32, in the discussion of principles vs. practices, why, again, minimize with statements like “we came to realize that there were probably some cases…[emphasis added]” Why not just say, yes, there were cases – full stop.
3. From 9:45 to 10:00, particularly 9:54 to 10:00, it would appear that plans have not changed for CJ to continue teaching his Pastors College course.
Not once did he mention the possibility that they might have sinned in any of the areas they are “seeking to learn” in.
So, Dave, how does the Gospel inform you in light of how you’ve treated those members that have disagreed, the pastors you’ve degifted, the practices that were pretty much mandatory if you ever wanted to “fit in”, etc., etc.
And, uh Dave, legalism and one practice was ALIVE and WELL in the franchise we just left.
Back in the day, I would have paid serious money for a bag of whatever he’s been smokin’.
What a dump truck load of bovine fertilizer. Wow. And he did the entire thing with a straight face.
@4:00, “not domineering over them…” Eegads, severe and serious conflicts with the history here. Yet, he talks with a straight-face. 5:47, “submitted to authority…” Yet, CJ is in the flight mode? :scratch
4. From 10:00 to 11:00, why “promoted by some” or “leaving false impressions [versus This was actually taught or stated” or “implied in some situations.” [emphasis added].
5. From 13:10 to 14:15 re: “loyal dissent” — amen, amen and amen.
Ellie,
I can’t watch it, either. :barf:
Does the angle show Dave’s nose? :Liar:
In the video, at around 5 mins, he mentions “now, as a pastor…”. But wait, Dave Harvey is NO LONGER a pastor! So what authority does he have? Oh yes, he is president of a “board”. Funny. Don’t read of any “boards” in scripture. Oh yes… the board was once called the “apostolic team”. Now, there at least was a biblical argument that could be made with the whole apostolic deal (although not a good one IMO). But there is zero argument to be made with the board. period. Put a cork in it, Dave. You should have NO SAY SO within any local church. :spin
#185, concerned for kids…
Truly excellent comment.
I am curious to hear you opinion on something. You spoke of the people within SGM in your post.
Do you think the willful blindness is also going to continue outside of SGM, with the Gospel Coalition crowd: a) the tight ones- Duncan, Dever, Piper and b) the not so tight big names who don’t have that level of relationship? How about CCEF, Sande? Do you see that window as closed yet? Thanks.
(I realize we don’t know the future, and it is just your personal thinking. There is that verse about God giving people over to delusion because they do not love the truth. At this point I would tell people to leave SGM and stop hoping for real change, it won’t happen, but I am wondering if God might raise up a prominent voice- like Paul to Corinth and Galatia- among the Reformed Big Dogs, to force the Gospel Coalition guys to deal with the ugly truth. Or do you think they too have closed the window?)