“Ambassadors of Reconciliation” Issue Report
August 26, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
The “Ambassadors Of Reconciliation” have issued their report. You can download it here.
Apparently, C.J. Mahaney has been declared “fit for ministry.”
EDITED TO ADD: Actually, “Ambassadors of Reconciliation” was only quoting from the preliminary outside panel made up of Ray Ortlund, Kevin DeYoung, and Carl Trueman. AoR’s final statement on the issue of C.J.’s fitness for ministry was that AoR is not qualified to make a judgment on the matter.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Mary, 140K for 9 months? Mary, you are… you are… (place street term for a blatant lie here) me. This just is not fathomable!
I haven’t seen this posted here yet. If you email AoR (at either mail@hisaor.org or tkober@hisaor.org) with a question about SGM, you get the following standard response. Note, emphasis is mine.
Thank you for your inquiry regarding our work with Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM).
SGM’s present agreement with Ambassadors of Reconciliation (AoR) is to provide consulting for the SGM Board of Directors on processes that may be implemented in order to address current conflicts and other needs. We are not yet working to implement any such processes.
Because of the time, energy, and costs involved at this early stage, we are limiting our current discussions with people about this situation to those that the SGM Board authorizes. We will keep your contact information available as an interested party who may desire to be part of longer-term evaluation or reconciliation process for SGM. SGM or AoR will contact you in the future when that process commences.
If you would like us to forward your name to SGM as a person who is interested in participating in a future process, please respond to this message with your permission, indicating whether you are interested in the group reconciliation assistance process or the adjudication process.
Thank you.
“$140,000 for 2 guys to go to a 9-month Pastor’s College?”
Proof positive that it pays to suck up.
Someone here should have fun with this and create a board game for SGMers to play. Free Parking can apply to anyone sucking up to the pastors well enough to get some good cash flow going. C.J. will always hold the Get Out of Jail Free card and Brent will always get the Go to Jail card.
Now who plays the banker and who holds the properties?
Watcher quoted this verse in regards to our “lack of authority” to read/discuss the documents.
“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!” (1 Cor. 6:2-3).
Beautiful application of this scripture.
Rick, I’m not reading Brent to be complaining about the connections between SGM and AoR as much as he is complaining that AoR decided it was not qualified to adjudicate the charges against Mahaney and recommended that SGM appoint one SGM board member and four SGM pastors to this task. As I understand it, AoR were pretty well convinced that SGM polity was set up so that only board members would be qualified to adjudicate, but seeing as there was a pretty major conflict of interest in that arrangement, they suggested bringing in the pastors as a compromise. They were of the opinion that having someone outside the organization do the adjudication would not be enough in spirit of the not entirely clear bylaws set up by SGM for running itself. Or something. Anyway, that’s what I got out of the report together with Brent’s letter. Maybe Brent would have been O.K. with AoR doing the adjudicating, but AoR wasn’t willing to do it.
Ummmm wrote:
Argo, regarding your hunt, let me just give you a few tips to keep you from making the same mistakes I *might” have ;-) ….
1) Drop the stereotypes that have been ingrained in your mind that seeker-friendly, non-reformed, etc, etc., churches are at best, ignorant, and at worst, evil.
2) Don’t try to impress the people at the new churches with your amazing scholarly vocabulary and your knowledge of Wayne Grudem. They’ll just think you’re weird.
3) Don’t run out if they sing a song you sang at your SGM church.
4) Don’t run out if you’re not expected to be at youth group with your youth.
5) Take your time. This is a slow decision. Date the church.
6) Follow the Holy Spirit. He will lead you, and you won’t need to get permission from your SGM pastor or care group leader to follow where He leads.
I write: “Thanks, Ummm. Excellent!!”
Kris said,
I lived with a roommate while they were a student at Westminster Theological and I can GUARANTEE you that they did NOT live off of 40K for nine months. Also, my sister and my neice were all married and with children when their husband’s went to seminary and I can for sure guarantee you that they lived on a heck of a WHOLE LOT LESS than that. And even when Mom and Dad got married and Dad was enrolled at Princeton Theological Seminary, I can guarantee you that (adjusting for value of the dollar back then) they sure as heck wouldn’t have ever dreamt of living on that much money. Heck, their 4 bedroom house cost them half that!
I know that living in Montgomery County is not cheap, but that is whacked.
Kris, Your comments about the distractions from the content of the message you experience when you watch DH are important considerations when deciding whether “face to face” communication really is superior to written.
watcher, I love that you responded to the report without looking at the comments. Your take on the messed up concept of authority represented by it resonated with me. God gives authority to human beings for the express purpose of maintaining truth and justice; when authority is used for any other purpose it is forfeit.
Isn’t C.J. mentoring Mark Driscoll? Over at Wartburg Watch they are reporting on Driscoll’s latest Pornographic Divinations, video included for the skeptical.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/08/29/mark-driscoll-i-watch-molestations-and-affairs-in-progress/
This has nothing to do with the church Christ founded. This is Satanic.
->5years and Happymom,
Great explanations! The whole confabulation thing is new to me.
Another point about fact/no fact/lie…The acts against your children were traumatic! And when the pastors had to deal with yet another molestation, I would imagine it was traumatic for them. They were looking at losing their jobs!
In the midst of all that trauma and drama and post traumatic stress syndrome and lawyers and police, etc, etc, I would imagine it would be difficult to remember a lot of the details.
And additionally, we tend to remember the specifics of how we were sinned against and how we were let down and how others failed US. We dont remember all the details of other things we didnt do or should have done.
It is my guess that the pastors aren’t capable of remembering all the ways they let you down and failed to help. My guess is their “we messed up” is probably all the details they can remember.
And then there is the amnesia part of forgetting things that are very uncomfortable. And their poor performance in the numerous molestation cases would certainly be uncomfortable enough to fall in this category.
Stunned,
Seasonofevaluation,
I understand how you might want to compare Maranatha Campus Ministries to SGM, but Maranatha was in a class by itself!
I lived in Gainesville, Florida when Maranatha had its headquarters there and many of my friends attended that church. Later I moved to Maryland and joined CLC, so I have seen both.
I have never in my life seen any church that went to the extremes Maranatha did in over-emphasizing pastors’ authority. Members had to ask their pastor’s permission to move locally, change jobs, or even take a vacation. They were expected to devote many hours each week to church related activities. Dating was only permitted AFTER a pastor-approved engagement. I could go on and on. There are many other sad Maranatha stories that have been posted elsewhere on the internet.
SGM definitely has its serious problems, but it is NOT Maranatha !
Stunned,
re: 233, guilty. LOL!
:D
SGMsingle,
Thanks for sharing your experience with Maranatha and its extremes. You said:
“Members had to ask their pastor’s permission to move locally, change jobs, or even take a vacation. They were expected to devote many hours each week to church related activities.”
Except for the vacation part, you just described my earlier experience at CLC to a tee. Sounds like you’ve been around a while. Did you not also experience any of this at CLC?
@ SGMSingle:
you said
I have never in my life seen any church that went to the extremes Maranatha did in over-emphasizing pastors’ authority. Members had to ask their pastor’s permission to move locally, change jobs, or even take a vacation. They were expected to devote many hours each week to church related activities. Dating was only permitted AFTER a pastor-approved engagement. I could go on and on.
How far is Gaineseville from Ft. Lauderdale? Because *all* of this sounds like hot-off-the-press “teaching” from the Ft. Lauderdale 5, via New Wine magazine, circa 1975.
You are not the only one who has experienced this kind of thing by any means – extreme abuses of this kind were rampant in many charismatic groups in the 1970s and 80s. I have seen it at very close range. (Too close.)
Back to the “WE invited Jim to attend…” (loosely quoted)
I sure understand how aggravating this statement was to you, Happymom, and you have every right to be aggravated by everything that is attached to your experience. You have my utmost support and admiration in this situation, and I hope the pastors will answer your charges specifically and will involve you, or at least notify you, of any other discussions of your case.
In trying to understand how someone could make this kind of statement (“we” invited Jim…), which turns out to be untrue, the explanation that seems rational to me is that “WE” was really not defined. Possibly the speaker was conveying the idea that everyone involved was okay w/ Jim’s attendance, regardless of who actually conveyed the invitation. But some listeners would have heard it as a statement of who actually issued the invitation. Maybe a better statement would’ve been “even Jim was invited to the meeting..” without inferring that one side or another was responsible for the invitation.
I don’t know the speaker’s intent — but here’s the reason I’m trying to find an explantion:
Recently, I was confronted by someone very dear to me about some things I had said that were tremendously hurtful to them. I was honestly astounded to find that what I had thought were innocuous offhand comments were taken literally & personally in the worst possible way. Though I never, in my wildest dreams, intended to cause hurt or pain, the hurt and pain happened. Part of that was my problem — part of it was their problem. And because of that, every single thing I said to them afterward, was received with suspicion and misunderstood, even if I intended it as a compliment — and a huge pile of misunderstood statements had to be sorted through, explained, apologized for, forgiven, etc. Until this, I thought communication was one of my strong points.
Because this happened, I am trying to re-think some of my own judgments of things people have said to me, realizing that I may have taken it in the worst possible way when it wasn’t intended to be untruthful or hurtful.
Anyway — I HOPE that whoever said “We invited Jim” did not intend to mislead, but spoke in a broader way than the words were received.
And I hope this is clearer than mud…
#261
I just cann’t believe some of the stories that I read here. It is almost as if I am reading about Bob Mumford or Derek Prince type of churches. I think that eventually Pat Robertson publicly criticized the discipleship movement, the 3 or 5 main leaders disbanded and apologized to the Christian community. They all started as excellent teachers in the Charismatic movement, but at some point became “proud” or thought they knew better and fell into doctrinal error. CLC must of been very different before Josh became the Sr pastor, maybe PC needs to review some of their theology if there might have a mix of “doctrines” with the “discipleship” type tones underneath. That explains all about “roles” and “submission” but there are a lot of very good teachings, and practice in care and community, exhorting responsibility to men, and I have never seen anyone being forced to confessed sin or people motivated by guilt and fear.
I am not sure what is the exact percentage of new members, my guess is that at least 50%, and there are also several new young pastors also. I have to agree that there are lots of “cliques” and most of them are long time members of CLC. I think that CLC has changed and it is probably going to change some more, maybe slowly but it will change. God is merciful and powerful.
I do know Maranatha was one of the churches with very heavy-handed leadership. I was in a “discipleship” type church. Women were taught to wear a head covering at all times (I never did), eventually the church fell apart. I am surprise that if that was happening at CLC or PDI or whatever other names this church had, how did the church survived for so long? …
Kris, Don’t feel bad. I can’t watch the Harvey video either. His mannerisms remind me too much of CJ and Steve Shank. And the nausea is too uncomfortable. (Let’s all put our thumb and pointer finger together forming an “o,” turn our hands over, open our fingers exposing our palms and shake our hands.)
And another thing…about PC expenses. I know that many of the housing expenses are way less than normal people pay. We hosted the guy who’s now the pastor at Bristol England and his wife while they were at pastors college. We charged them utilities only, which was around $300 a month. That was 11 years ago, but at the time, it was expected that host people weren’t charging full market value. Also, I wonder how much the renters of the sgm-owned houses pay. Likely not market value or SGM couldn’t write them off. One thing to consider is that these guys normally still have their house in their home city, so those expenses won’t go away. When our pastor in Denver was “de-gifted,” Mr Shank graciously offered a spot at pc for the newly unemployed pastor. When I asked how he’d pay, he said that many of the guys who go to pc take out second mortgages in order to afford pc. They are recommending debt for guys who don’t have a job?
Sidney — “They are recommending debt for guys who don’t have a job?”
Ahh, but after only nine months, they’ll be pulling in salaries that are likely better than that of 4-year seminary graduates in first pastorates — and just might achieve celebrity pastorhood and really big bucks. Debt? No problem. :spin
@ Mary50 #266 –
It is almost as if I am reading about Bob Mumford or Derek Prince type of churches.
You are. SGM comes from those roots, and was openly inviting Charles Simpson to speak not too many years ago.
Just watched dave’s video…..is there a class at PC on the cj-squinty eye-head bobbing-hand gesture mimicry? :scratch
Nickname,
Comment #265. I could understand your point if VH’s statement was not surrounded with so many OTHER deceptive and misleading statements.
Not sure if you read our entire Response, there were major points of deception throughout the entire meeting and we found the bulk of them in VH’s statements. VH took every opportunity to paint us in a negative light and twist what actually happened. There is no Godly sorrow in that.
IntheNICKoftime,
Thanks for your comments but there was a nine year gap in between Noel’s story and what happened to Child B, plenty of time for these leaders to recover. Please remember that THEY were not the ones dealing with the trauma, drama and post-traumatic stress syndrome, we were. They spoke to their lawyers and that was it. We were not asking them to remember all the ways they let us down, we were asking them to answer questions. Looking at SGM’s history of handling sex abuse against children, I don’t think they have to worry about their jobs. M. Mullery was/is Sr.Pastor during three abuse cases that were horribly mishandled and added tremendous suffering to the victims and families and SGM headquarters seems to be ok with that.
5 years #243: I agree. Brent has written much clarity about the SGM injustices related to CJ’s case. However, I think that he should openly repent himself for any pastoral, “apostolic” abuses that he may have been involved with when he was in ministry with them. So far, to my knowledge, he has not done this. I sent him a comment about it on his blog when he was publishing comments, but he didn’t post it or respond in any way. I personally think if he would lead by example and not only through rhetoric, that his case against them would so much stronger.
Still In It,
I was wondering the same thing. Do you think that class comes before or after the “learn how to speak breathy, especially when saying ‘gospel'” class? Comes of disengenious…not to mention other ways it comes off.
IntheNICKoftime,
I appreciate your comments!
This is from Cornerstone Church of Knoxville’s (CCK) website…
http://www.cornerstonechurchofknoxville.com/about-us/our-history/1983-1989
“Cornerstone Church of Knoxville was established and grew from a campus ministry at the University of Tennessee. Known as Maranatha Campus Ministry, this small group of students and former students worked throughout the 1980s to share the gospel and encourage growth in the Christian faith. Cornerstone Church of Knoxville’s Senior Pastor Bill Kittrell became the campus director in 1983. The ministry was dissolved in November, 1989, and several people involved began to prayerfully consider continued ministry in the Knoxville area. This discussion sparked Cornerstone Church of Knoxville’s inception a few months later.”
Seems like the PC was just another way for SGM to rake in the $$$
Maybe that is the price to take a person and make them a CJ clone.
Nice to know where some of our tithes/offerings were going.
Here is a tought SGM – make this information known to all members.
A little openess and honesty, right, that is what you guys preach!!!
I managed to talk with a good friend at a SGM related church in Southern VA. Their church
is taking the approach that what happens with CJ is none of their business. Thus
their pastor will not communicate any more information regarding CJ and SGM/CLC/Brent.
Don’t mention it and they will forget it, must be the thinking there.
CJ — :trainwreck —- Documents