Dave Harvey Makes A Video…
August 30, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
This is already old news, as Dave Harvey’s video has been up on the Sovereign Grace Ministries website for a couple of days. Some of you have already shared your thoughts about it in the previous thread.
I didn’t get around to viewing the 26-minute presentation until last night. Once I did, I realized that this video totally deserves its own post. I’m still trying to process exactly what it was that I heard. Perhaps we can figure it out together.
Mr. Harvey starts out by explaining who he is and alluding to the challenging times in which Sovereign Grace Ministries finds itself. Then he explains that although everyone is welcome to watch, he is making the video primarily for pastors and local churches.
After that, in a strange amalgamation of lecture-to-pastors (“Don’t make secondary matters too important – that can lead to legalism”), instructional video for members about what they may have witnessed but that Mr. Harvey wants them to forget (“We don’t actually emphasize pastoral authority incorrectly – the only authority pastors have is scripture!”), vague explanation about how members can indeed disagree with pastors and live to tell about it (“We encourage dissent – really, we do!”), and attempt at minimizing SGM pastors’ crazy responses to child sex abuse, where they gave victims the harsh cold shoulder and bent over backward to coddle perpetrators (“In a very few cases, we may not have given the best pastoral care to victims”), Mr. Harvey proceeds to address many of the issues we’ve been discussing here for nearly four years.
My head is still spinning over this bizarre display. On the one hand, it was Twilight Zone-ish, to hear Mr. Harvey openly admitting (through the very act of talking openly about any of these things) that problems in these areas do exist. How many times have SGM defenders come around to this site and railed about how “they’ve never seen” anything like this? How we’re all just misunderstanding and making stuff up? Well, now their organization’s “acting president” is putting these things into words and telling the world that they’ve been aware of their jacked-up church governance structure “for years” and have been revising (secretly, I guess) polity for the past two years.
Who knew?
There were so many odd things about this video, from Mr. Harvey’s lighthearted facial expressions, to the tight camera angles that nonetheless managed to capture his hand gestures, to the very clear display of his belief that if he tells people what he wants them to think, they will forget what they’ve experienced or witnessed and will believe his interpretation of things.
At times, I found myself seriously wondering when SGM is going to pay us here for providing them with talking points. After all, way back in 2008, I suggested that the leaders who were so desperate to know the indentities of the commenters here ought instead to direct their energies toward self-examination, and toward answering the following questions:
DO THEY, as an organization, have a system of church governance in place that is too heavy on the notion of “authority,” with no recourse for the common member should a disagreement arise? HAVE THEY, as an organization, caused their pastors to view themselves as the final arbiters of God’s truth, even for non-essential matters? HAVE THEY, as an organization, taught their pastors to turn every confrontation back around onto the questioner, so that the questioner is then left defending himself and his own sinfulness that caused him to have a difference of opinion in the first place? HAVE THEY, as an organization, fostered a culture of secrecy, where decisions are made from the top down and then imposed upon the people in the pews, often with little clear explanation to these people about the changes imposed upon them? HAVE THEY, as an organization, come to view themselves as better than all other organizations? DO THEY, as an organization, hold themselves and the counseling their pastors offer as superior to any sort of professional mental health or law enforcement intervention?
Finally, HAVE THEY EVER minimized a case of sexual abuse by – say – having the admitted abuser merely place a phone call to apologize to his victim, and then permitting the abuser to remain a member in good standing?
I’m still waiting for them to talk about their dangerous biases against the mental health profession, and their sense of superiority to other organizations. And oh yeah – I’d love to hear what Mr. Harvey would have to say about the culture of secrecy, where decisions and policy are made behind the scenes, without a shred of openness, and then foisted on their completely in-the-dark membership.
But I guess Rome wasn’t built in a day…
Anyway, since the Sovereign Grace Ministries guys obviously follow what people say here, I have some ideas for them, in case they decide to make more videos. In no particular order, here are my suggestions:
- Make up your mind who your audience really is. If it’s truly pastors and members, you should be able to be honest with them. You can admit fully and freely that certain conditions have indeed existed. You shouldn’t have to tell them how to reinterpret what they’ve known and seen for decades. If you find yourself doing that, then that could be a sign that your real audience might actually be that Washington Post reporter.
. - Ditch the qualifiers. If you use phrases like “may have been less than sensitive” or “could have provided better pastoral care,” that makes you sound wimpy and like you’re still refusing to acknowledge what everyone with half a brain already knows to be true. (Or, like SGM’s attorneys have way too much power over the remarks that you make.) On a spiritual level, it makes you sound like you’re still refusing to admit your organization’s sins. This isn’t good.
. - Be more careful about how you talk about C.J. Mahaney. You don’t want to let the cat out of the bag about how you guys have already made up your minds about what the “independent” adjudicators are going to say about his continued fitness for ministry. When you talk about his Pastors College courses in the future tense, that’s kind of a slip-up. It makes you look like you’re wasting a lot of SGM’s money in paying these Ambassadors of Reconciliation guys, when you’ve clearly already decided that C.J. will be teaching again at the Pastors College. Also, it’s a bad bad idea to utter blatant lies, like the one about how great an example of approachability C.J. has been. Uh…Mr. Harvey…everyone already knows that C.J. is only approachable to the people over at Capitol Hill Baptist, where he’s hiding out right now. Again – not good.
. - When talking about child sex abuse cases, don’t use words like “complex” to describe what a pastor’s response should be. The only people who think there’s something complex about calling the police to report such hideous crimes are people who are totally out of touch with reality. That’s why the “9-1-1” system was created way back when. It’s easy to call the cops when you learn that someone has raped a toddler. Nothing complex about that.
. - Finally – and I know I’ve already alluded to this, but really, it bears repeating – you need to understand that your instructions about what to think aren’t as powerful as you apparently think they are. You can’t, by simply saying it’s never been taught, undo decades of express and explicit teachings on topics like the necessity of obeying one’s pastors. The sound files are out there. So are transcripts. People just aren’t that dumb.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
I really don’t understand these laws. DPV mentions no statute of limitations for child molestations in his state. It is not like this in all states. A case I referred to a while back (Wycliffe Bible Translators was involved last year), Wycliffe counselors reported the situation to the state. The state did an investigation and they have it on record that he confessed to the many sex crimes, however, no charges were filed. He didn’t really turn himself in voluntarily, but he only admitted when confronted that he had sexually molested many boys as young as 2 years old for many years. So this man, because the action was done more than 20 years ago, is walking around as a free man, with no criminal record, and is not mentioned on the sex offender list. I really get furious thinking about it because there are no safeguards in effect, no neighbors can find out about him, no employer can research his record and find a thing because he was not taken to court and convicted. Why?!!!!!? :scratch
@Stunned, Rom828, 5yearsinPDI, I’ll leave off on Anonmyous and the implications. I’ll leave him to the wider forum, as well as your kindnesses. We’ve been there and have that T-shirt, coffee-mug, banner, police, court, counseling and the after-effects. Most oddly, curiously, and by chance, my wife and the 26-year old came in “after” the few earlier posts…see the timing above. It still hit a nerve. My son proceeds apace with his legal studies with a view, one day, for the Bench. Robert, if he becomes a Judge, will be fair, thoughtful, analytical, unemotional and just. That’s exactly what we want in our Judges.
Again, I’ll leave Anonymous to the kinder sorts here. You are kinder than me. I am fair and just. Whether Anonymous has confessed, is shamed, has repented, etc., is not a matter of the law. The law asks, “Did the crime occur?” That alone is central. Anonymous “has openly confessed.” The confession is germane to the sentencing phase. Let him offer his apologies after the confession to the DA and the trail has occurred.
Again, I’ll leave him to the gentler souls here. As for me and my family, we will read widely. More specifically, will continue reading widely on SGM, their books, their history, the blogs, and the difficult Detwiler documents.
@Jewel, I intend to run down some of these state variances that you note. Not in connection with Anonymous’s recent and open confession to all, but the 4-5 other stories reported here. I checked the General Statutes of North Carolina on the statutory rape case, a step-father with an 8-year old over three years. As to state variances, will run it by the Federal Judge here in town as well as do more research. This is “one element” in the larger review of SGM. (I noted your earlier post about Wycliffe’s responsible search and inquiry and it was a good post, by the way.) I didn’t intend to distract from the main thread on Mr. Harvey and the video.
Donald, I wouldn’t say we are necessarily kinder all the time or even now. Each of our reactions is legit, including yours.
I, too, am a victim of sexual abuse and as you have probably read here, led bullet proof clad police who were also armed into a home to arrest a pedophile. And I am half the size of the pedophile and have no training in protecting myself in the least. Did I mention that the pedophile is also a knife/sword collector?
The next morning I stood before the judge and convinced him to set the bail above the reach of the pedophile. I also stood in court and spoke on behalf of his young victim when the time for his trial came.
I have also stood toe to toe (though they were bigger and taller than me) against 12, yes TWELVE policeman in my neighborhood (just about 3 months ago) while all of them were trying to intimidate me. After fifteen minutes of my refusing to back down and insisting they do the right thing in spite of the fact that none of them wanted to and the fact that at first they were threatening ME, they finally backed down and two of them even apologized, admitting that the police simply didn’t want to do what I was insisting they do (their job). Thank heavens I knew the law well enough to know that these son of a guns were in the wrong and that I was in the right. So in spite of the fact that they were actually telling ME that I was causing a public disturbance (by doing the right thing) and that they were trying to act like they were about to haul ME in, they finally relented and admitted that it was easier to harrass me, rather than the person who was actually breaking the law, though this person (actually two men) were both quite a big bigger than this smallish middle aged woman.
I have forced people to keep other laws they haven’t wanted to and have threatened men who have congregated in my inner city neighborhod at 2am in the morning. I have stood up to what I believe are mobsters and threatened them if they EVER break any law in my neighborhood (I am much too dumb for my own good some days) and work on projects to help victims of forms of abuse.
I have shouted down constuction workers when they were saying inappropriate things to women and have stood up to holligans on the street when they were in the middle of brawls. (Again, what the heck was I thinking?! Clearly, only of justice and fairness.) I have even followed men down alleys after I have seen them commit crimes just so I could make sure I knew there whereabouts so that when the police got there, they could be caught. (I recommend NO ONE do anything this stupid unless you are at least the same size as the criminal.)
I could go on but I already sound like some bragging, loud mouthed jerk. (Not that none of that is true, mind you. ;) )
My point in all of this is that I don’t know if you meant to come across as condemning and dismissive or not, but your comment, “You are kinder than me. I am fair and just” comes across as a comparison. As a “this or that”. As if you are saying you cannot be both kind and fair and just. Worse yet, it is coming across as if you are saying that because we are kind, we are NOT fair NOR just.
Would you please clarify if you are accusing us of this or not? I’d rather know that the hand I felt slap me across the face was intentionally dismissive of who I am and some others are or simply a mistake.
@Stunned, no, no, no. Not accusing you of any sort of incompetence. It sounds like you are fair, kind, just and quite able in handling this. After reading the above, assuredly, Mr. Anonymous is in far better hands like your’s than mine. I’ll leave him to you. You are well-skilled in these matters. I sure don’t want to cross you, eegads. I might get justly spanked. Best regards.
DPV, thank you so much for your quick reply.
I’d be happy to have a Marine in my corner next time I have to go up against anyone bigger than me. Actually, my best friend from school was both a marine and a mercenary. Man, I would love to have that arsenal at hand! Actually, since I don’t know how to use it, I think it would best be left in the hands of you professionals. I’ll just mouth off, then duck and let you guys come up and protect me if I need it.
Count me in Stunned dear.
(I only hope to match your courage when I’m needed.)
D
:cowboyup
Defender, it is always an honor to be on your team. But I warn you, my friend, I might get myself into big trouble. This following God thing is sometimes messy and doesn’t always make one popular among the religious folks.
PS. I’ve heard your story. You have more courage than three men put together.
dear anonymous. i wouldnt have called the cops if i found out u were a child raper. i would have taken u out to the woods and left u there. thats how i roll buddy. welcome to Lancaster PA, stop by and say hi.
For DPV – I must beg to differ with you on one point… Anon did not confess openly, he hid his name. Granted, with the information he gave in his “confession” he could be tracked down by the IP address by some enterprizing cop or DA. Let’s see his bravado then as he does a perp walk in cuffs talking about his forgiveness and restoration. I truly grieve for your son and you and your family. In your situation I might have “snapped his neck like a twig”. Granted, I’d either still be in jail or innocent with an insanity defence. I doubt there is a jury that would convict if there are any parents on it. Either way justice would have been done.
For Stunned – YOU GO GIRL!!!
For Stunned – M’lady, you walk into situations demanding justice in lawless situations. You will forever have my prayers and I pray that Captain Tal has your back all the time until he is there to escort us all into His prescence. (Those who have TPD and PTD know who Captain Tal is.)
FYI… The Happiest Place on Earth sermon is no longer on the Knoxville Church site. As a matter of fact, it looks like CJ spoke there in 2001 and didn’t come back until 2010. I did a google search and found it but couldn’t listen too long. I kept thinking… insert SGM key, turn off thinking, turn off discernment, turn on Lemming switch, check “user cannot change password” button, remove key.
There was a guy who read someplace that cigarette smoking causes cancer. He decided to do something about it so he gave up READING!!
Give me a break. One of my favorite quotes from Dr. Walter Martin is: You can be very sincere and be sincerely wrong.
Well, #25 I am glad you posted on Dave H. video topic. I have always thought it is good to keep all the trash in one place.
You said:
God sees no difference between child abuse and getting angry at the guy who just cut you off on the highway, both are SIN, and both required that Jesus die so that we wouldn’t have to. This truth doesn’t make me feel better about or let me try to excuse my sin, but rather brings a deeper humility and gratefulness for God’s grace.”
If you can even say this, you are still a pedophile in my opinion. Of course you like the SGM pastors!! Your wife should have done a better job at proof reading and you should be in jail.
If you are serious about being sorry, you now you have your children. Put yourself in jail now. Then perphaps you will have a believeable apology. Much like these other men who are spiritual abusers, none of you take the responsibility on your selves to do what is right. Dave H. little video is just as much a load of bunk and what you said. All of it is words without action. Stating what is obvious without any personal application. Both of know what is right and you both have spewed out lies and coverups.
Neither of you have had just consequences for any of it.
Since “Anonymous” has not come back, I’d like to bring the discussion back around to an idea from the Dave Harvey video – and it’s an idea that is actually brought into full living color by what “Anonymous” shared.
In the video, Mr. Harvey mentions that for pastors, situations involving child sex abuse can be “complex.” If I were an SGM member, I would press Mr. Harvey for an explanation of what he means by this. I have a strong hunch he is alluding to situations like the one “Anonymous” mentioned, where a pastor might hesitate to call in law enforcement because the perpetrator is a church member, and from the pastor’s perspective, the perpetrator would do better under pastoral care than in the legal system.
In my opinion, this kind of thinking reveals SGM’s true arrogance and shows SGM pastors’ lack of understanding and knowledge about problems like pedophilia. Contrary to what “Anonymous” would have us think, acting out sexually with a child is NOT a run-of-the-mill sin. It has all sorts of implications, both for the victim and about the perpetrator.
Especially if the perpetrator is a minor (as was the case in Noel’s and Happymom’s situations), this behavior would indicate that perhaps the perpetrator has himself been a victim of abuse at some point. Rather than fearing a potential lawsuit from the perpetrator when he grows up, I’d think that SGM pastors would be much wiser to seek whatever help they could get for the perpetrator…instead of relying on their own Pastors College training.
Coincidentally, I’m reading a book right now about sociopaths. Sociopaths are often brilliant manipulators, able to fake tears when the need arises and put on quite a convincing display of remorse. But in the end, the sociopath will minimize and excuse his own behavior, as he genuinely does not think or process life like a normal person does. The sociopath will almost certainly go on to repeat his crimes.
I’m thinking that through their ignorance and arrogance, SGM pastors are the perfect “marks” for this kind of sociopath. By dissing and hating on psychology for so long, SGM has blown off a wealth of knowledge and resources that could have helped them avoid their current issues with respect to these abuse cases.
I think it’d also be interesting to learn about mandatory reporting laws for the various states where SGM churches are located.
Those laws would remove the judgment call from the pastors’ hands.
I really have a hard time understanding why the organization doesn’t adopt a corporation-wide mandatory reporting policy anyway. Would they harbor other criminals, like murderers? If not, why not?
Anonymous wrote: “I was a child abuser who was not turned over to the authorities”
So, in this life you have gotten away with what you did to a CHILD. I also noticed that you are very careful with your words – “child abuser”. That means one of tow things – either you beat the crap out of some kid or you sexually abused (raped?) a child.
Guess what – you got away with it so far. The pastors that hid your crime got away with it so far. So if you went to jail your would have trouble getting a good job, maybe not be married, etc? Well boo frakin hoo!!!!!
You SHOULD have gone to JAIL to pay for your crime in this life. Just because God forgives you for the next life, doesn’t not excuse you from paying for your crimes on this life!
Kris,
I’m so glad you brought up the “complex” statement…I was up at 5am this morning trying to type out exactly what bugged me so much about that statement. First of all, and THIS issue has boggled my mind ALL ALONG….we are talking about MEN! MEN who have bungled these cases, MEN who are shepherds called to care for the flock. (although that is CERTAINLY debatable) I have four sons…I’ve watched Braveheart, Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan, (well, MOST of it) and each time I watch these movies I am brought to tears by the courage these men displayed. Contrast that to the cowardly ways the leaders of SGM have responded to abuse victims. What man in his right mind would treat a child, who has already suffered the worst violation possible, in this manner? What normal man would not lay down his life for the safety of a child? What man would not do all he could to assist a child who has been harmed?
All we have seen is men who are making excuses, spinning the truth of their actions, protecting their reputations, tearing up in front of their churches but failing to honestly answer questions, hiding behind their wives illnesses, tiptoeing around these issues by making flabby-ass statements like “we COULD have pastored better” There was nothing “complex” in the decisions of those men storming the beaches of Normandy or jumping out of planes over enemy lines…these were men who were willing to do the right thing, NO MATTER WHAT THE COST!
“Complex” should never be a word considered when faced with the horrors of sex abuse. These men should be ashamed of themselves.
Kris and all,
I don’t know how much time you have each spent studying this subject, but not all experts in this field would agree that it is in the best interest of either the victim or society to turn in all pedophiles to the police. I know I turned my dad in to the police but I do not believe that mandatory reporting nor mandatory arrests always help the situation and in some cases, I believe it causes more harm and leads to more victims.
Ready for a shocker? I agree with Dave Harvey (choking…on…my…own…words) that not all situations should be treated the same and yes, they are very complex.
I won’t delve into all the reasons why right now. This is an extremely tough and emotional issue and I need lots of emotional reserve to begin to tackle it.
I will just say this one thing. Studies have shown that there are two traumas that can happen to a child after they have lived through the devestation of molestation. Number one trauma after an event like this is if the child should tell someone what happened to them, and they are not believed. That is a horror I haven’t had to live through. Hope I never would.
The second trauma, which is more hard to believe but which is nonetheless very real and significant in the child’s mind and which we need to be mindful of…. if the child is victimized by a person that the child loves (a grandparent for example or a parent) and that person goes to prison, this is actually HORRIBLY traumatic for the child and can often have a life long impact on the child.
Please don’t argue with me about this. This is not my theory, it has been found by the experts and unfortunately, borne out in the life of my precious little relative who was the victim of a pedophile whom she loved. Fortunately our little one was believed the minute she spoke about it. (Praise God!) But I don’t want to begin to relive for you the nights her mother heard her tormented cries in the middle of the night because the child was sure somehow she was responsible for her loved one being in prison. How many times can you try to convince a small child that they are NOT responsible. It may not seem like much to you right now, but it is a living nightmare to a small child and one I would not wish to put ANY through.
There ARE a few circumstances where the child and society actually benefits from the criminal not going to prison. (The three types of pedophiles need to be taken into account here, as well as other circumstances.)
However I DO believe that ALL people who struggle with these feelings should immediately seek professional help and contine seeing a therapist for many, many years. (Not just pastors but people who actually study this stuff and have experience and training in it.) I also believe that very specific boundaries for the safety of society needs to be built around these people. (I can get into that later if anyone wants to know.)
As a victim of sexual abuse, as well as one who has fought on the front lines I am not trying to take away from what has happened to any victim but to actually help us have better understanding of the complexities of some of these cases.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Stunned
Stunned,
I can understand that there are nuances to this mandatory reporting stuff.
But SGM has proven itself singularly wacked in this department, too frequently erring on the side of sympathizing with abusers. Consequently, it seems to me Dave Harvey and Friends would be oh-so-much-wiser to take these kinds of judgment calls out of the hands of men who have a track record of making bad mistakes.
Oh Kris and happymom, I am not disagreeing with you at ALL that SGM has shown itself to be totally untrustworthy in how to handle these situations. I never once advocated for these guys (who for the most part have NO psychology/psychiatraic training appropriate) to handle or judge these situations.
I am also not saying that it just wasn’t Dave Harvey being manipulative and misleading. I don’t trust him as far as I can throw him and my pitching arm ain’t that good.
Not ONE of these people nor ANY pastor shoudl EVER make the call but as I have stressed, leave that up to the experts and the family after they have gotten expert care.
I was only disagreeing that each and every pedophile should be turned into the police. Certainly not that SGM has the maturity or wisdom to handle these cases in a healthy manner. (Not healthy for the victim, the church, society, the family members of either the victim or the perp OR for the perp in my opinion.)
Kris, When I was reading your remarks about sociopaths it reminded me of how very important wives are. I have talked out situations with my husband time and again and by listening to me he has covered his behind a lot. He didn’t get into certain circumstances that maybe he would have because I said that isn’t right, etc don’t do it. I think my husband has sociopathic tendencies but I have been the iron that the Lord gave him.(or it is the pain in the behind?)anyway…..I call him out on a lot of things and he doesn’t manipulate me any more. It’s been rocky and difficult but we get along well now. he has grown and me too into what pleases the Lord not only in our relationship but in what HE would have us do.
I observe a friend who has always said to her husband”whatever you want to do honey..whatever you think best you’re the boss” and see the mess they are in financially, physically etc. He is a manipulative person also– much as we like him.
Where are the women who should have been helping the sgm leaders? Are the women invisible? Do the husbands ever listen to them? Or are their egos so large that the women are brushed off as not understanding such weighty topics? Are the men so far from humility that they can’t even listen to their wives?
The crocodile tears have always turned me off–from all the leaders. As have the clone like mannerisms. I see no repentence coming from most of these men-now or later. Unless they learn obedience by their suffering–just like Jesus did and then it will be a different story.
btw, DPV astute comments and thanks for sharing…see… you listen to your wife! Smart man.
OK – a quick comment before I head off to work (maybe I’ll get cut off again in traffic – HA!). In the recent video Dave H. to me comes off as incredibly condescending and patronizing even in the midst of being confronted with indisputable documents via Brent. How can we expect anythig different than the same patterns of behavior which are so ingrained within the mindset of those in leadership? Tap dancing and dismissive all with the air of trying to show “real concern” and “care” for those who are hurting. This, in my opinion, has flowed into the treatment of those who have experienced real hurts, abuses, etc. Pretend to “truly care” for the abused all the while dismiss the brevity of the case in an attempt to sweep it under the carpet. :barf:
I asked my pastor if he would recommend professional psychological counseling for my husband who had emotionally abused me and he immediately said a definate “NO”. *sigh*….
Gadget, I am sorry to hear of the abuse you suffered at the hands of the very man whose job it was to protect you and care for you.
May I ask, is that an SGM pastor who told you no?
With the exception of Stunned’s explanation above, in my whole life experience, I have on several occasions been in conversations (debates) with persons who, after being shown irrefutable evidence that was contrary to their ideology, refused to concede, and instead would say that my evidence only revealed that the issue was “complicated” and thus could not be resolved easily.
I find the “complicated” card to be in SGM’s case to be a cowardly attempt to refuse to bend from their ideology.
As Breeezey alluded to above, these guys are sincere, but are sincerely WRONG.
My personal comfort in all this is, they (as we all) will someday stand before The Righteous Judge, and all will be made right. Honestly, my prayer is that they repent before they have that appointment (but I shed no tears for them if they don’t.)
That’s where I stand today…
from what i can tell, the mishandling of sexual abuse cases, and the mishandling of the lives of long-time members in general, both stem from the extreme emphasis on the notion that all sins are “equal” to god… bc they all required a sacrifice. this idea seems biblical and enjoys a ridiculous emphasis in sgm. it is the reason that they mess so much up. on the one hand, it sounds humble, but on the other, it is just ridiculous to think that child abuse is on par with “sinfully seeking answers” or having an “idol of comfort.” (reality is found in the different CONSEQUENCES and EFFECTS ON OTHERS).
this emphasis in-turn stems from what amounts to a business model. people who have been forgiven of much are often humble, grateful, generous, and joyous people… and they stay in churches and buy merchandise. the trick is to get “regular” people to see that they have been forgiven much. you have to get “normal” people to see their worminess. you have to show them their inner worm. to do that, requires a lot of effort/teaching on the part of pastors. they intend to show people their sinfulness, to produce the grateful christian (giving them the benefit of the doubt here), but their method of doing so has other consequences. they crush any individuality and lighthearted zest for life in people. they produce love-bombing grateful people who cant think, are conformed to a cookie-cutter archetype that needs pastors to make even minor decisions, and have lost rationality bc they view their own sin the same as jeffrey dahmer’s. (their worminess mirror is abuse!)
and we come full circle. thats why they cant turn in child abusers… they have to stay consistent to the notion that all sin is equal to god because that mentality keeps their churches (and pockets) full of brainwashed sheep (and their money).
PS. Have I mentioned how much I love the passion of so many people on this board who would stand up to protect the weak? I pray we can work this through into every area of our lives so that the weak of everything (we all have weaknesses) can experience love and support and strength.
Stunned – yes it was an SGM pastor. A pastor who has been in leadership for quite some time.
“(reality is found in the different CONSEQUENCES and EFFECTS ON OTHERS).”
AMEN
Oh Gadget, I am so sorry you have gone through this.
Please tell me you are getting care from professionals or considering going to professionals?
pseudonym,
Excellent observations.
What you wrote dovetails well with something I put up as a comment awhile ago. I keep meaning to make it into its own post, as it’s quite lengthy. For now, I’m going to repost it here:
While I am the first to say that any coverup of sex abuse is horrific and evil, particularly when done by a church, I think it would be interesting to explore the mindset behind any such coverup.
What is it about their SGM training that would make SGM pastors respond to abusers in such a way? Why would SGM pastors appear to extend more grace to perpetrators than to victims? Why would SGM pastors believe that they should be the primary source of counsel and support for perpetrators? Why would SGM pastors exhibit a reluctance to get outside help or call upon law enforcement to deal with such perpetrators?
It’s my opinion that SGM’s twisted teachings about sin and the role of the pastor – as well as SGM’s blurring of the lines between “the gospel” and “the SGM church organization” – are what have led to situations where these sorts of crimes seem to be minimized, and perpetrators quickly restored to good standing within congregations.
First of all, SGM holds to the (in my opinion essentially correct and biblical) belief that all problems faced by humanity can be traced back to sin. I say I think it’s an “essentially correct and biblical belief” because if we dig through all the layers of human suffering and misery and downright evil, we are left with almost no other choice but to conclude that humanity is messy because humanity is fallen and sinful.
However, where I would part ways with SGM’s assumption is where SGM’s essentially correct belief about sin morphs into what SGM believes is the remedy for sin.
In SGM’s teachings – and if I wanted to take more time to develop this, I could go back and dig up plenty of quotes from books like Why Small Groups and sermons like CJ’s Happiest Place On Earth, as well as plenty of other resources that are available for the whole world to read and hear – the problem of sin is seen as being addressed by not just the work of Jesus on the cross and His continued presence with us through the Holy Spirit. SGM would say that Jesus’ work on the cross is now being “finished” or “completed” by how Christians relate to a “local” church and how Christians are affected by the work of the pastors in their lives.
In the book Why Small Groups? a case is laid out like this:
1. Yes, salvation is through Christ alone, through his atoning sacrifice.
2. Salvation, however, is separate from sanctification.
4. Although, sanctification WILL result anytime someone is “truly saved.”
5. Sanctification cannot happen apart from “biblical fellowship.” I actually am going to go and dig up a quote to back this one up. From Chapter 1 of Why Small Groups? comes this:
You can read the whole chapter to get an even better feel for how thoroughly CJ and his cohorts view participation in “biblical fellowship” a completely essential element of a person’s sanctification.
6. A key componant of “biblical fellowship” is interacting with people in a way where they freely confront you about your sin and where you humbly submit to others’ assessment of your sin.
(By the way – this principle is FOUNDATIONAL if anyone wants to understand the driving force behind Brent Detwiler’s seeming obsession with confronting CJ in his sins. In the SGM mindset, a lack of willingness to submit to others’ assessment of your sin and to acknowledge your sins when confronted with them is almost a sign that you are out of fellowship with God. If we can grasp this, we can understand why in Brent’s mind, CJ’s unwillingness to be confronted was so utterly grievous and dismaying. And why Brent continued his pursuit so doggedly…even as he talked about “grace,” which most Christians understand as letting someone off the hook. In SGM thinking, true “grace” must involve sticking with the confrontation no matter what, because unwillingness to acknowledge one’s sins when confronted would be a sign that the person is not being sanctified…which is a sign that the person could maybe not even be saved!)
7. Also, SGM believes that another essential part of “biblical fellowship” is a person’s continued oversight from his pastor, who also bears the responsibility to continue to confront the person on his sin. SGMers are taught that pastors, by virtue of their higher calling and “gifting,” possess special abilities to perceive a person’s sins more accurately than the person himself.
8. Essential to the SGM understanding of the gospel is a demonstration that one remains keenly aware of one’s “worst sinner one knows” status. I realize that this comment is already excruciatingly long, but I really want to lay this all out in one place, so I’m going to quote from another post:
9. We have to factor in SGM’s longstanding distrust of and total disdain for the mental health profession. SGM has long taught that “secular psychology” has absolutely nothing to offer the believer in terms of solving problems.
Anyway, to connect the dots of all this to the situations where SGM pastors were aware of sex abuse and seem to do nothing to address the problem legally…
If all problems are sin issues, and if all sin issues involve continued “biblical fellowship,” which – most importantly – includes continued confrontation from a pastor about one’s sins…
And if “secular psychology” presents no way for this to continue, but a pastor’s counsel does…
And if a perpetrator has acknowledged his sin to his pastor…
And if it is un-Christian (“sinful”) to ever feel like one has the right to be a total victim, with no corresponding need to focus on one’s own sin…
Then it makes total sense for the SGM pastor to:
1. Appear to side with the perpetrator.
2. Believe that his pastoral counsel is all that is needed.
3. Believe that he is actually better serving the victim through his position, because he is making it more difficult for the victim to pursue what would be sin – i.e. being a victim and “demonstrating unforgiveness” by pursuing justice through the legal system.
4. Consequently believe that through all of this, he is “protecting the gospel” or some such, because the SGM gospel is all about confronting and rooting out sin, never having the right to be a victim, and demonstrating one’s salvation status by the sanctification process of confessing one’s sins – which a perpetrator has already done, therefore making the perpetrator “more sanctified” than someone who is trying to get justice as a victim.
I am not professionally trained nor as close to well read on the subject as stunned is, but I don’t think this particular situation is complicated.
God can save people, give them a new heart, and bring them to true repentance, and that includes child abusers. But if so, they don’t play the moral equivalency game and say all sins are the same in God’s eyes, and someone silently feeling mad at an idiot driver is the same as what they did to a kid.
I don’t know if this guy should have served jail time or not, and what would have been best. But I do know that his claim- which may well reflect his many years of SGM pastoral care- that every sin is exactly the same in the eyes of God and there is no difference- is not only theologically wrong, but seems to me to show that he has not really faced how seriously terrible his sin was.
This is not complicated in the least. I can look at my sins and see where some of them have damaged my kids, my marriage, or people over the years, and some have not. And I would never even come close to saying that the ones that affected my kids are the moral equivalent of you getting mad at a jerk on the road.
This guy is sick and it makes me sick and I wonder how much of it is from his SGM pastors.
Ugh.
5 Years said, “God can save people, give them a new heart, and bring them to true repentance, and that includes child abusers. But if so, they don’t play the moral equivalency game and say all sins are the same in God’s eyes, and someone silently feeling mad at an idiot driver is the same as what they did to a kid.”
Amen. This statement is unbelievably insensitive to his victims. And says to me that he has not fully dealt with the consequences of what his victims experience daily.
Kris,
Perfect!
Kris, that was really good. Really deep insight. I’ve thought for a while that the shepherding error was at the root of much wrong in SGM, but I think you’ve hit on another huge key factor creating pastor abuse. Thanks.
Stunned,
I continue to be grateful for the compassion and love you express in your comments. You strive for fairness and balance and most important, compassion.
Two thoughts:
1) As a victim (and survivor) of sexual abuse by a relative (uncle) my best therapy was seeing him locked up and the trial was very therapeutic to me (but I know that I am the exception and not the norm) and I was 10 at the time of the incident and around 15/16 during the trial.
2) Has there been any reports here of a female being the perpetrator? I wonder if SGM would handle a female different – immediately shunning her and casting her out like Mary Magdalene. Since SGM is very male heavy, I wonder if they would treat females differently in this situation. Has there been one documented here or elsewhere? :scratch
Clearly all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death – the eternal consequence for sin is the same.
The sameness of eternal consequences in no way means that the temporal and relational consequences are the same.
No one who says “All sin is the same in God’s eyes” has ever read the first five books of the Old Testament.
PhillyinDC, I am SO glad to hear that the trial and the ensuing imprisonment was so good for you! I am guessing it gave you the feeling that not only were you believed and supported, but that you were taken SERIOUSLY and that you had the power to do something to make a difference in the world. That is awesome that the police’s involvement was such a positive experience for you.
Interesting question for number 2. I wonder if there will be any response.
PS. Thank you for adding your voice to those of other victims. The more people speak out, the more others will know they are not alone. And three cheers to whomever heard your story and believed it!
Cam, and they must clearly forget the whole millstone tied around the neck thing. Or a bunch of verses in Proverbs, too.
Is this what happens when a church stops studying the bible and starts studying books written by men who merely reference the bible?
I have been thinking about the whole “dealing with sex abuse cases is complicated” and the responses here. Yes, that is true, for any time one is dealing with different individuals, anything becomes “complicated”. Yet, while most of us can agree with hat statement in it’s truth, somehow, I think DH and others can make that same statement as an excuse. Two statements, sound exactly the same, yet have two very different meanings! Here is my thought about the reconciliation bit:
I am thinking that “Go and seek reconciliation” does not literally mean to PHYSICALLY GO, but rather means “to take action”.
I always tell my kids, “If you are going to do something to help someone, make sure it actually HELPS, instead of just thinking you have fulfilled your “obligation”, and have made yourself “feel better”. If it doesn’t help THEM, then it is not help! If you want to truly help someone you must learn how to help them as they need. The same goes for reconciliation: If one is TRULY REPENTANT, let them first “understand” the impact on the victim, and seek for reconciliation accordingly. This is not a “pat reaction” to be “performed”, where one asks forgiveness, and another responds yes.
If I had wronged someone in such a long term, traumatic way, and I truly wanted to reconcile for it, if it helped them heal for me to turn myself in and go to jail, I would ASK for that to be done! Granted, if it were a situation where others would be even more so affected negatively , I would beseech said victim for another possible way, but would do whatever it took to reconcile. Gee, come to think of it, that is pretty much what happened with Jesus in the Garden of Gesthamane, isn’t it? He has already set the example for us of reconciliation! Oh, but SGM Pastors learn from CJ, not Jesus! No wonder..
Yes, dealing with any abuse case is an individual and complicated matter, but what SGM seems to forget is that the one thing that always remains the predominate concern, is the victim! And, in cases of child abuse, whether sexual in nature or not, the victim is always the child, not the adult perpetrator!
exMom…well said.
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Video-Answering-your-questions.aspx#disqus_thread
Some good comments here at the SGM blog, particularly one by “Asher”.
Great 5 Years, because of your linking to it, I couldn’t resist paying a visit and now I have been tempted to sin by believing the trut…errr… by believing that this man Andrew is setting off my bs meter.
Andrews wrote:
ding ding ding ding That’s the meter going off again. NO ONE said CJ had to be mentioned at all. Dave Harvey purposely mentioned CJ teaching the class and he did not do it solely for the purpose of saying the class would be taught. He brought up CJ’s name for a reason and Andrew was deceptive in his “explanation”. Dang, his explanation was not even logical. (Which makes me wonder, did this guy go to Pastor’s College?) I don’t see how he could expect anyone to respect him after seeing the kind of integrity he has.
Reading those comments on SGM’s blog, does anyone else join me in finding it interesting that this Andrew guy is the one tasked with responding?
While SGM is to be commended for actually permitting public dissent, and while I can understand why Dave Harvey himself couldn’t interact on the site and would instead need to delegate that task, it seems like a cop-out whenever Andrew gives the “I don’t know, I can’t answer that particular question” response.
Either Andrew should have full power to speak for Dave, and should be able to consult with Dave whenever a particularly puzzling or uncomfortable question is raised (like the VERY GOOD question about CJ’s running off to Capitol Hill Baptist instead of continuing to attend CLC) and then convey Dave’s response. Or else SGM should not be having Andrew run interference for them. They’d be better off not “blogging” (permitting responses) at all.
The way it is now is just too easy for Mr. Harvey. Andrew should not be enabling this sort of thing. Mr. Harvey gets to create an illusion of openness and a willingness to entertain dialog…but only to a point. When the questions get too tough, Mr. Harvey’s go-between can plead ignorance.
Im not at all surprised to see they have put yet another person (andrew)in charge of responding ……its always “someone else”, on behalf of whoever doesnt want to answer the questions they should be answering. By the way, most of the comments arent ever even posted…..andrew moderates them and then responds to most of them with an email to let you know the blog is really only for the purpose of informing all the SGM church members of what they need to know, and that any issues that all the churches dont need to know, or issues having to do with any specifics, should be taken up “individually with your own pastor in your home church setting on a personal level”…….I guess andrew decides what all the churches “need to know” and “dont need to know”. Hmm.
After we watched Dave Harvey’s video, Guy and I were talking about how amazed we are at how these guys continue to miss the boat, in terms of giving the people what they really need and what would BEGIN to fix things.
It’s like Josh Harris is the only person who halfway has a finger on the pulse of the average member, and how all of SGM’s issues come across to people. Josh Harris did, for awhile, seem to get it.
Dave Harvey, on the other hand, clearly does not.
I know he might not be able to help it, but his self-satisfied facial expressions, with that twinkly little mouth peeking out from behind his goatee, making him look like he’s about to giggle, did NOT serve him well in this video. He totally lacked the gravity that he needed to convey as he spoke about these issues.
Then there was the odd mix of “We might have gotten this wrong, but here’s what SHOULD be happening” and “Actually, this isn’t as bad as it seems because we’ve been secretly doing XYZ for two years behind the scenes.” It was like a how-to video mixed with making a case for why SGM’s mistakes weren’t really so bad. Strange.
Here is a piece of what “Asher” wrote on the SGM website. I thought it particularly captured what I was trying to describe:
I joked to Guy that I wish SGM would hire me as a consultant. I could totally help them with striking a better tone in their P.R. efforts.
Anonymous coward (in so many ways),
You epitomize everything that makes us :barf: about SGM. You came on here and in a single post proved everything we have said. As someone who was a victim of such abuse myself, I can tell you that the suffering and effects I endured for decades far outweighed those I have experienced from the hostility of anyone I may have cut off on the highway. You idiot.
Anonymous you should consider yourself extremely lucky that the pastors were willing to stick it out to end ,its not the norm for sure. I have a differing opinion of your situation though. Instead of SGM letting you hide and keeping a criminal act from being exposed you should have gone to jail and let God be glorified by the way God blessed you after the fact. You say being held accountable for your sin by the State would have meant no job no kids no wife etc ??? that is just the BS the SGM pastors told you becuase my God is so much bigger than that. You should ask these pastors what God thinks of hiding a crime from a government that God Himself has brought to power. So since your church is ok with letting criminal acts go unpunished what other crimes are allowed there ? is adultery ok ? how about embezelling money ? murder ? what about theft ?
Just my thoughs and experiance of knowing someone who has a criminal record yet is greatly blessed by God.
These are replies to comments in the last post.
Stunned, sorry, I only included you because you referenced Seasonofevaluation’s link.
Seasonofevaluation, Blue Sky, Numo.
Yes, The SGM church in Knoxville was once part of Maranatha Ministries. Maranatha’s headquarters were about a 6 hour drive from Fort Lauderdale. Both Maranatha and SGM in the early days had some influence from the “Fort Lauderdale 5” leaders of the Shepherding Movement.
You asked about my experience at CLC compared to Maranatha. In general, Maranatha was blatant in their overuse of pastoral authority while CLC was more subtle, even to the point I was not sure they were going too far. Here are some examples:
At Maranatha they would have members’ meetings every few months where they would announce who had been kicked out and why. They would give reasons like “Person A fell into sexual immorality.” “Person B refused to be baptized by immersion.” “Brother C and Sister D were secretly dating without pastors’ approval.” Members were basically told to keep their act together or they might be next to get excommunicated and publicly humiliated.
At CLC people would just disappear with no explanation. When members would ask what happened, they would be told “Person A is not doing well. Talking in more detail would be gossip.” Members would often “believe the best” and not even ask questions. I didn’t SEE any abuses.
At Maranatha, leaders would say things like “We are God’s Green Berets.” “We are the apple of God’s eye.” “We are the overcomers who will bring the Kingdom of God to earth.” Other churches were referred to as “nominal Christians”. Leaving Maranatha was equated with compromise with the world and with possible hell as a penalty.
At CLC, CJ would tell us “You’re the best!” It sounded harmless, like a father giving his biased opinion of his children, but some people might have interpreted it as “CLC is better than other churches.” This was not DIRECTLY exclusive.
At Maranatha, pastors demanded control of decisions like moving and changing jobs. At CLC, no one directly told you to get a pastor’s permission for things like moving or changing jobs. Any possible overuse of authority was done with hints and indirect communication. Questions might be asked such as “Is there some reason you did not trust your pastor enough to “get counsel” before that decision?” This was not OVERTLY controlling.
Andrew at the SGM blog has my sympathy and my prayers. Did he know about all this stuff within SGM? Who knows? But what kind of power does a staff member have with those heavyweights? I think any staff member of SGM is in a difficult situation now and shouldn’t be lumped in with the “they don’t get it” crowd. I wouldn’t be surprised if a few are contemplating leaving because of all this. Some of us are having a hard time just going to church (even if our local church is improving things), because of the whole SGM thing. So I don’t think it’s fair to assume that every SGM staff member doesn’t get it and is lacking integrity. They’re not the leaders of that organization. They’re not responsible for how the board responds. The saying “Don’t shoot the messenger” comes to mind. I think he responds the best he knows how with the information he has. He’s trying. It’s more than SGM has allowed on their blog before (so it’s new to him!). I think he’s to be commended for the job he’s done so far.