Taylor’s Story
August 31, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Here is a story submitted by Taylor. Please note, Taylor originally included the names of the pastors involved, as well as of the church locations. Because of her desire to protect her children’s identities, we agreed that names and locations would be edited out or replaced with pseudonyms.
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I’m afraid my story is not unique.
My husband and I spent many years at our Sovereign Grace church, first as young adults and then later after we married and had kids. We homeschooled, we got involved in home group, and created a nice little bubble for ourselves. We looked the part and believed what we were told to believe and even though we never fit the mold, we kept trying.
The thing was, though, my husband had a porn addiction that was kept hidden (because a Godly wife doesn’t reveal her husband’s sins to the world, or even to close friends). He would get caught, he would “repent” and humble himself, and I was to forgive him. A vicious pattern that would repeat itself over and over, and would set the stage for what was to come.
As I said, we did homeschool our children. However, it always felt like we were marginalized, as we weren’t able to participate in the classes and co-ops and support groups within the church. Still we kept on homeschooling.
It all came to a head when I discovered that my husband had been sexually abusing our 10-year-old daughter. I had felt something was not quite right for a couple months, but could not figure out what was going on, and kept telling myself that I was imagining things, that it was Satan putting evil thoughts in my head, that it couldn’t possibly be anything like I thought. My husband had always expressed such disgust at this sort of thing that I was sure he wasn’t capable of it. And yet the thoughts and feelings continued. I would catch them alone in a room, with my daughter sitting on his lap, or he would call her down to the basement to do some chore with him alone. He started spending a long time putting her to bed each night, but only a few minutes with our other children, while I was busy with the toddler.
One night, I am not sure why I did this, but I went into my daughter’s room to kiss her goodnight after her father had gone downstairs to get on the computer, and I said to her, “You know, honey, NO one, not even me or Daddy, has the right to touch you in your private areas”. And she started crying and said that Daddy had been doing just that every day for a long time, and making her touch him as well.
I fainted right there across her bed. Then quickly came to, and comforted her. I told her that it would NEVER happen again, and she would be safe from then on.
Then I went downstairs and confronted him. He fell to his knees and begged me not to tell anyone. I said I had to protect our daughter, so I called our associate pastor, whom I’ll call Pastor Bill. As I told Pastor Bill what had happened, my husband ran out of the house and got in the car. I ran after him and told him not to leave and he said he didn’t have any choice because now he was going to jail and he just couldn’t face it and indicated he would rather die than go to jail, then drove off.
We spent three days in agony not knowing where he was or if he was still alive. He turned off his cell phone. Pastor Bill came over to our house and talked with my daughter and made her tell him everything that my husband had done to her and for how long. After the first 24 hours, Pastor Bill gave the situation over to another pastor, “Pastor Fred,” to handle.
I was praised up and down for not calling the police but for contacting them first, for being a “Godly example” of a Christian wife, etc. When we went to church the first Sunday after the crisis, I was with two of my close woman friends, and they asked me what was going on, and I told them what had happened, feeling the need for support and help.
When I told Pastor Fred I had told them, he was quite upset with me for telling anyone, and reprimanded me for gossiping, and then had to meet with them and our care group to do damage control, to make sure no one would know what was really happening or had happened.
Finally my husband answered his phone on the fourth day, and the pastors convinced him to come back. But not to our house. They sent us to stay with my husband’s relatives (another family from our SG church) for several days and let my husband come get his things and move in with his mother.
We were all brought in for counseling with the pastors, first me and my daughter separately, where she had to again tell what had happened, and where she was told she needed to forgive her father, that she was a sinner too, and didn’t she feel that she had sinned by not telling me sooner, and we were made to feel that she had somehow sinned by allowing it to continue, even insinuating that maybe she had even wanted that attention a bit. She was TEN YEARS OLD.
I should also add that I was told by Pastor Fred that I should not get outside counseling for my daughter at all. He said it would expose her to ungodly counsel and do more harm than good, that God was the only healing she needed. So we never got any outside professional help, but my husband got counseling for about 4 months from the pastors. It is the “trickle down” theory of taking care of the “head” and it will trickle down to the wife and kids.
During this time that they were separately meeting with my husband, they counseled him and they met with his boss (another church member) to inform him of what had happened and why he was absent from work. It turned out that all of his late night work at the office had really been opportunities for viewing porn, including child porn, on the office computers, and he was fired from his job.
The pastors knew that so many people knew about what had happened that they were required by law to report it, so they told my husband that he needed to turn himself in instead of their doing it. That was how they got out of their legal responsibility to report it. My husband’s relative who is a lawyer told him not to do it himself, but to use a certain lawyer he knew. The lawyer he had suggested met with my husband and I together, and he said that no, my husband shouldn’t turn himself in because if he did then he would go to jail and we would be without any income, instead since he was now obligated by law to report the crime, he would talk to the state’s attorney and let us know what to do. We didn’t hear anything from him for weeks and weeks, and were left to constantly wonder why.
After about two months of this kind of counseling by the pastors, I was told that in order to truly be a Godly wife, I had to forgive my husband because my sins as a less than Godly wife had also contributed to my daughter’s abuse. I was told that had I better met my husband’s needs physically, he wouldn’t have been tempted elsewhere. A meeting was held at Pastor Fred’s house, where my husband could apologize to my daughter for hurting her and ask her to forgive him. Again she was reminded by Pastor Fred that she was a sinner too, and that Jesus had forgiven her, so she must forgive her father to be a good Christian.
So I was told to allow him to move back home, and to make sure I had physical relations with him regularly, and books were offered telling me how to have a Godly sexual relationship with him, like Intended for Pleasure: Sex Technique and Sexual Fulfillment in Christian Marriage, and The Five Love Languages.
I was told to put a lock on my daughter’s door, on the inside, and every night after I had kissed her goodnight, she had to lock her door to keep her father out.
And he moved back into our house on Christmas Eve that year. We resumed looking like a “normal” SGM family, my husband was greatly praised for repenting and we were praised for reconciling, and every time we had sex I got sick to my stomach afterwards. Every time he moved or got up in the night, I sat bolt upright in bed. If he went out of our room, I lay there listening to make sure he didn’t go near any of the children’s bedrooms.
The only “counseling” I myself received during this time was when Pastor Fred would ask me to join him and my husband in their sessions, and he would ask how it was going, having sex with my husband, and would want specifics, and right in front of him so I couldn’t really be honest but would just say it was ok.
(As an aside, it seems to me personally that the pastors at SGM have a weird and unhealthy fascination with details of sexual encounters. I know a teen girl who was having relations with her boyfriend, and when she was caught and brought in for counselling, the SGM pastor made her “confess” each and every detail of every sexual encounter the two of them had had, before he could say that she was repentant. I just find it sick. They made my daughter do the same thing, giving every detail of her father’s molestations, but not so they could report it.)
I kept calling the lawyer asking if he had heard anything, and he kept saying no, not yet. Then in February I finally got some specific answers from him. No, he hadn’t actually turned in a deposition. He had simply written a hypothetical report up and put it on the attorney’s desk. Unless I wanted to go in and file charges against my husband, nothing would happen. I called the pastors and told them all of this, and they said that it was obviously a gift of grace from God, and that as a Christian I was not to bring civil authorities into it, and that I was to let it drop and not press charges because my husband was repentant and had agreed to their counseling, and they felt like everything had been discharged properly and what wonderful examples of God’s grace and mercy we were.
A little over a year later, there was a new church plant, and we were told to be a part of that. How convenient for them…
We were part of it, but soon after the church plant happened, I caught my husband looking in the bathroom window from outside when my daughter went in there to use the toilet. I told her to get out of the bathroom quickly, that he was out there looking in at her and not to use that bathroom any more.
I called “Pastor Kevin,” the pastor of the newly planted SGM church, and told him what had happened. He said that sin was insidious and that I should expect my husband to have moments of weakness, and that I was wrong to warn my daughter because I was further damaging her relationship with her father and preventing it from being reconciled. And that was the end of it.
At that moment I knew that not only was I and my children without protection from the church, but that I was truly alone and would just have to make the best of it. I could not rely on any more help from the pastors and it was up to me to protect my children as best I could.
For five years I struggled to be that protection for them. My daughter continued to lock her bedroom door every night. I continued to not sleep deeply and to always be alert to his prowling at night, and we maintained our facade as a healed and reconciled family. I forced myself to allow him to have sex with me, even though it made me physically ill. The toll on my self-esteem, my self-respect, and my family was huge. My marriage relationship was dead, but I was trapped inside it trying to be that “Godly Wife”.
However, we were kept at arm’s length from the rest of the church. Other parents did not include my daughter in birthday parties or other activities because they were afraid she might tell their children what had happened. She was damaged in their eyes. Other parents pulled away from me as well, except for one friend.
Finally, I just burned out. I just couldn’t do it any longer. I couldn’t pretend to love a man who had sexually assaulted my child every day for months. But I didn’t know how to get out. So I started sleeping in my son’s room on a cot, pretending that I had just accidently fallen asleep while putting him to bed. Not coming out unless my husband actually came to get me.
It was only with the strength and support of my one remaining friend that I was able to finally get the courage to divorce him and leave the church, when my daughter was 16. It was a long two-year process, in which I was shunned and ostracized by the church body under instructions by the pastors for “abandoning my family” and breaking my marriage vows. I was told I couldn’t leave the church because as long as my husband was a member, I was a member also. But I finally got my divorce and broke free, and maintained custody of my children.
My ex-husband still attends that same SGM church, even though several of the founding families and the pastors all know that he is a child molester. I would venture to say that none of the rest of the church has any idea, though. He is remarried, and when he has visitation with our younger children, he still takes them to church events.
My older children are now grown and don’t have much to do with my ex-husband at all. They are also very bitter towards SGM and want nothing to do with them. Their relationship with God has been destroyed, and it will take the work of the Holy Spirit alone to restore it, in His time. But otherwise, they are happy and doing well.
I have found a wonderful church that has helped me realize that the world, and God, are so much bigger than SGM ever taught. I have learned that there is room in God’s house for all different types of people, and theologies and doctrines. And although it took several years, I have begun to trust God again, and read his word with new eyes. God IS good, and even SGM can’t destroy that.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Yes, and John King, the “pastors” of SGM have had ample opportunity to address these issues and are perfectly free to address Taylor’s story in particular on this blog; just as they have had years of opportunity to address Noel’s story, Happymom’s story, ExCLCer’s story, et al ad nauseum. They have not availed themselves of those opportunities. When these stories have been publicly addressed by them the result has been distorted whiny excuse-making.
And besides, who cares what you think? Who knows IF you think? I doubt you do.
Sorry, this story makes me nuts.
me very sad :-( me pray 4 taylor
Taylor, thank you for sharing this. How hideous. I hope that God has brought and will continue to bring great healing and happiness for you. I feel confident that you will find that publicly sharing your story is part of a healing process. I know others have, including me.
Why don’t people dial 911? Because these men of God pound into you that your basic human instincts are sinful and ungodly. Of course you want to be godly, so you believe it. And the whole time you are living it, you know something’s wrong, but you are not sure what or why, because you are doing what your leaders, whom you are to joyfully submit to, are telling you. But it’s not working, yet it’s suppose to be working…
#15 why would anyone want to follow men that don’t have that basic guttural response? something is terribly wrong with those men.
Exactly! I remember visiting my grandfather 20 years ago, and saw a terrible story on the news about a man that sexually abused his girlfiend’s 3 year old son and beat him into a coma. My grandfather simply said, “In my day, the men of the town would have chased him down and beaten him to a pulp, and the police would have stood by and waited until we were done.”
I seriously doubt they actually did that, or that the police would stand by watching if they did, but there was something comforting in knowing that the men of the commuinity would have been willing to take a stand as men to protect children, even if it was just in verbally expressing what they thought should happen to such a perp.
Claude, as horrific as what my family endured at the hands of these men who call themselves pastors, it would have been so much the same as what Taylor went through if I had not been such a hard-headed, stubborn, “unsubmissive”, and basically strong willed woman that I am. That is why I KNOW her story to be true! The very things that happened to her, I fought and argued against! Because of sex abuse that happened to me as a child, I already was prepared in my mind how I would deal with anyone who dared to hurt one of my children in such a way. Actually, it took all of my self control to NOT deal with him as I would have liked-instead, I only threw him out, and looked to get professional counseling for my children. But, I was very specific in what I wanted, and refused to take them to a counselor that would try to encourage reconciliation. So, unlike Taylor, I was not totally dealing in an unknown, and I dad not need the pastor;s approval to know where I stand with God, or need their approval in any way! But, I totally understand where Taylor was, and how she was there. I know that if it were not for me being such a rebel, I would have been exactly in her shoes. “There go I, but for the grace of God”. To you, it may be too shocking to believe, but to me, it is the reality I fought hard against!
Taylor, I have no words. We are sickened, sad, and completely enraged at your story and what you have had to endure, so I pray that you and your children are knowing the peace and joy of God’s love and goodness now, in the present.
Kris, I think you are spot on concerning the arrogance of this power-pyramid’s thinking or groupthink. Why else would they be the “best” or primary place of disclosure? What other reason is there? I hope to God that it’s not more PR cover. I think it would be charitable to chalk it up to arrogance over image protection.
The odd, or even perverse pattern of interest in sexual details strikes me as odd, as well. Based on my experience as well as some knowledge we have I have wondered for years, since leaving the SG network what the level of porn usage is among those in leadership. Could that be related? I just wonder. I mean who or what kind of person asks for that level of detail and information? :barf:
There is accountability software available. But who uses it, in SGM???
@ QE2: YES!! :clap
As to the questions about church location and time frame, I will let Taylor decide how much info she wants to put out there. From the details she’s shared, it sounds like this happened several years ago, since her daughter was 10 at the time and is now grown.
While some SGM churches may not have been as affected as others by this, it seems pretty obvious that the twisted emphasis on “all sins are created equal,” coupled with really bad ideas about wifely submission, created a church culture that enabled these kinds of abuses. And because of SGM’s method of church planting, where whole “mini-churches” of people were sent out from an established church like Taylor’s, these beliefs spread. Yes, there may be exceptions, particularly among the less-connected or newly adopted SGM churches, but by and large a couple of filthy streams could cause a LOT of contamination.
Also note that, even though Taylor’s daughter was 10 at the time of the abuse, Taylor continued, under pressure from SGM church, to live with the abuser until her daughter was 16-SIX MORE YEARS! Then, she said her divorce took 2 years, but the perp IS STILL IN THE CHURCH! Even if the actual criminal events took place 8-10 years ago, it was less than that when the perp was caught trying to view his daughter in the bathroom! My point is, the “actual KNOWN criminal act” may have taken place 10 years or so ago, but if this man has never really been held accountable, and was even caught seeking to view his daughter again in such a way, and it was minimized..WOULD ANYONE WANT TO TRUST THEIR OWN CHILD’S SAFETY THAT THIS GUY IS NOT TRYING SOMETHING AGAIN??? Do these SGM pastors REALLY BELIEVE that God will not hold them accountable one day? I don’t even understand how anyone can believe in God, and not be so afraid of what is to come after having acted in such a way!!I am GLAD I just dont get it, though! :bang
I wondered if anyone had any comments on the Covenant Fellowship Family Meeting last night?
Also, to bring a little levity, I recently noticed this:
Combine a photo of CJ Mahaney + photo of Dave Harvey = What do you get? Jared Mellinger! (Covenant Fellowship Senior Pastor)
A combination of CJ’s receding hairline plus his slight build, mixed with Dave’s beard and rectangular glasses! Anyone else see it? And I’m not even talking about mannerisms or gestures or speech patterns! Not being unkind to Jared – just thought it was really funny when I noticed it! C’mon CovFel members – tell me you haven’t noticed it too?
And a comment that was probably a bit better fit for the previous couple of posts. CJ can continue to barrel about the country burbling about how in heaven we will gather about our pastors (maybe we’ll just elbow the Lamb out of the way.) And I’m sure CJ thinks he’ll have the greatest cloud of witnesses of all. CJ, however, has probably never been anyone’s pastor because just calling yourself a pastor doesn’t make you one. Making megabucks calling yourself a pastor doesn’t make you one. I would venture to say as well that many of the men currently calling themselves pastors in SGM (Dave Harvey, for one) ARE NOT. I think anyone who has actually been a faithful shepherd rather than a faithful shoe licker and corporate drone has already been run out of SGM. I hope there are exceptions still in SGM.
If people do gather around to honor pastors in heaven I think there will be some surprises about who they are — and are not — honoring.
I keep thinking WWJCD? What Would J C Do? The J C I’m thinking of is not Jesus Christ. Its John Calvin. He was Chief Magistrate at Geneva. I’m pretty sure the bonfire he persided over with Michael Servetus could have been expanded to include some of the “supposed” pastors and the abusers. I swear the spirit of Moloch is running SGM when I read stories like this. Michael Servetus only disagreed with JC theologically and he was burnt at the stake. I can imagine some of CJs clones who hold Calvin in such high esteem disagreeing with him on this issue. What Would John Calvin Do? A burning pile of green wood would probably be his response. Dante must have a special ring in hell for these guys after JC gets done with them.
@Phoenix, actually, I am chuckling a bit now, thinking of the SGM pastors meeting God on Judgment Day..I am not so sure it will be what they are thinking it’s gonna be..
It is not that I am wishing ill, or d**nation on anyone undeserving, or even anyone at all for that matter, but God DOES say that “vindication is His”, and I totally believe that all of these abused children and their families will be ultimately vindicated.
Taylor, I am so sorry and grieved to read of what your daughter, children and self had to go through at the hands of “Christians”. How wickedly hard to sort out what was going on and what to do when those around you were so ….WRONG in an almost evil sort of way. Oh how I pray He draws and leads you and yours through, day by day.
Old commentator, new name, thank you for your willingness to share and shine a light on the dangerous fruits of all the legalistic, twisted rhetoric og SGM. I am so sorry that you suffered so in silence. I pray the Holy Spirit will come and gently help you unwind all the knots and lies.
Pampy captured what I have thought for years, ” there is a strong sexually twisted undercurrent in this “family of churches”.”. I too am ill and grieving for those who have gotten swept under, ignored or DAMAGED by this undercurrents pull. Not that how I wish I could communicate with you can be reduced down to an emoticons but… :( & :In-pain:
In light of Taylor’s story, I think it’s interesting to take a second look at Dave Harvey’s recent video.
If people want to understand why some of us were so put off just about everything Mr. Harvey said in that video, it’s because the overall effect of his words was one of minimization.
Yes, he addressed the idea of pastoral authority. He attempted to either instruct or assure (I’m honestly not sure which) his audience that “the only authority pastors have is scripture,” and that pastors do not issue binding advice. And technically speaking, that’s probably true for one segment of the SGM population. Technically speaking, SGM pastors have probably not given out a lot of recent direct instruction about their own authority and how their members must look to them for direction about all manner of life’s decisions. If anything, they’ve relied on CJ’s occasional delivery of a message like Happiest Place On Earth.
But somehow, some way, the idea that members should automatically turn to their pastors for advice is still very strong in the SGM culture. Somehow, it’s been conveyed in unspoken ways, to the point where we can see this habit at work in Taylor’s reaction. Someone asked the question, “Why didn’t she call 9-1-1-?” Well, Taylor reacted to her horrific discovery by doing what she’d (somehow, some way) been trained to do: she turned first to her pastor for direction.
Now, if Dave Harvey is going to honestly address the issue of how SGM views pastoral authority, and honestly deal with the fact that SGM members have, over the years, somehow picked up on the idea that they must always look to their pastors for guidance and direction, and that the pastors’ word has some sort of extra authority over them, then he simply MUST do more than just tell people that their pastors don’t have actual authority over them.
Instead, he needs to acknowledge that obviously, this attitude has somehow been absorbed by a lot of SGMers over the years, and that because of that, pastors have been able to exercise an inappropriate level of influence over people’s lives. We see a very good example of this inappropriate influence in Taylor’s story. In “normal” Christianity, if a pastor told a member not to seek counseling for an abused child, the member would likely consider that odd advice and ignore it. But in SGM, if a pastor said that, there was something in the culture that compelled a member to take that advice seriously and run with it.
Until Mr. Harvey deals with this (and all the other issues) more deeply, his videos play like vain attempts at P.R. and spin.
And denial. Big-time denial.
Kris – spot on.
Big time denial. And big deception too. I still say if you compare the audio to the Kingsway meeting on 9/6/2010 you might get closer to the “real” Dave Harvey.
There, he was completely unapologetic and said if you don’t like their system, you can leave. In the current video he says they have been revising their polity for 2 years?! Which one do you or should you believe? :spin
Here are just a few of Harvey’s gems….
“handled with care and with the victims utmost first priority.” and “we are aware of a FEW instances where pastors COULD HAVE been MORE SENSITIVE to the emotional and spiritual needs of the victims and families and COULD HAVE pastored MORE EFFECTIVELY.”
This only proves that he has either, A) not read any of the actual stories, or B) he is so totally out of touch with reality that he doesn’t believe one word of any of them.”
SGMER’S – Hold Harvey’s statements on sex abuse in light of this story and tell me you are ok with that???
First of all, thank you for all the outpouring of support and prayers. It was extremely hard to share this, and I have actually been silently reading here for several years. I still feel deep-set anger towards SGM and its pastors, and reading stories here often makes it come back up to the surface. Every time a new story was posted here, I was incredulous that it had happened AGAIN, and often to people that I had previously known or been in church with.
Even though over 10 years have passed, healing is a slow process sometimes. I often wondered if I should share my story here, but each time I started to, I would get so angry I knew it wasn’t time yet.
I understand the questioning, and all of these questions posed here are things that I have asked myself over and over and over again- punished myself about many times. The “if onlys” and “why didn’t I”s are always there, especially late at night. I am an intelligent, strong woman. How did I allow myself to be so mislead and deceived?
Claude, all I can say to you is that you remind me of a certain quote from Forrest Gump….yeah, that’s the one.
John King, I’m not going to try to defend myself or my story to you. My family has been through enough, and that is exactly what SGM does, turn it around when you come with a grievance or complaint or charge.
Again, thank you all that have posted kind words.
I don’t want to derail the conversation, but I have a suggestion for the SGMers who believe Mr. Harvey’s video statements about how pastors do not have special authority over them.
I would like you to consider reading the transcript from CJ’s Happiest Place On Earth sermon.
Then, I think it would be a great idea for you to ask yourselves the following questions:
Considering that CJ has made the rounds of a good many SGM churches over the years, delivering that same message, it is disingenuous at best and a LIE at worst to say that SGMers’ leaders don’t expect them to believe that their pastors’ counsel has special authority over them.
Further, considering that almost every man who is now a Sovereign Grace pastor had to come up through the ranks where this Happiest Place mentality ruled the day, and had to prove himself by submitting to his own leaders, which ultimately meant
sucking uphonoring CJ, it seems pretty clear to me that SGM pastors would turn around and assume that their own authority over the people beneath them would look similar to what their own leaders had over them.Taylor,
Thank you for making yourself available to respond to questions. And again, thanks for sharing your story. Coming on the heels of Mr. Harvey’s lovely video, where he essentially minimized situations exactly like yours, I think it’s especially important for people to grasp just what a bad misrepresentation his statements were.
Cimino said, “I wonder if someone with pastor college experience would be brave enough to state whether or not protocol for handling these events was taught to them. It is too much to believe that all these situations were basically handled in the same way without there being some kind of guidelines already in place. I’m convinced now that there are some. If so, would someone be brave enough to post them?”
Kerrin, you there? You went to Pastor’s College, right? What did they teach on how to handle these situations?
Kris,
you are correct, i never heard it specifically taught to take every minute personal decision to a pastor or CGL, but it was very definitely passed down through the ranks for years…
If i only had a dollar for every time someone in my sphere of influence said “well, have you talked to your pastor or CGl about that decision?”
From jobs, to dating, moving, to buying a car even…. and when i went on a church plant i was strongly rebuked because i chose to live slightly out of the circle DH drew on a map of the new church’s sphere of influence in the new community…. I liked this other area to live a little better and there were some economic reasons as it was slightly over the state’s border… I was told ” I may not live there!!”
Taylor, I think it was about 10 years before I was able to feel like I had “put things behind me”. Yet, they never really are, which is not really a bad thing either. because by us bringing these stories forward, and not letting them disappear in the past, there are others who will be spared. Something like this is never “a good thing” to happen, but if we allow ourselves to be strong enough, to not let it rest, we can use what we have been through to make a difference, to keep others from suffering in the same way. This is a perfect place to start! I have been able to heal another 10 years, so it has been 20 years for me. Despite my security in who I am and how God sees me, I still am not sure I would “be up to” being able to handle some of the accusations that some have tried to bring if I was not simultaneously experiencing the support of the rest of the people here. I hope the love, understanding,and acceptance you get from the majority of us here, coupled with god’s Grace, continues to help you heal and grow stronger daily. Considering DH’s video, and the continued minimization :cowboyup that SGM puts forth, I would say we all have a job to do!
Considering this latest case of alleged sexual abuse, I felt drawn to the parable of the good Samaritan. A great evil has been done to an innocent person, neither the priest nor the Levite can change that, but what they can do is come alongside the battered dying man and shower him with the mercy of God by treating his wounds, praying for his equally battered soul, and just being there for him. But instead they walked by separating themselves as much as possible from the suffering victim.
Every time the dying man watched a religious leader walk by he died another little death inside to the reality of the one true God and His love for all His creatures. Each step those men took past the obviously wounded victim called out to him, “God does not love you.” To the extent we turn a blind eye to the pain and suffering inflicted on innocents in our church family we make the same statement to them and bear not only some of the responsibility for their unbelief and hardness of heart toward God but also the anguish and anger they feel over the evil done to them. Unlike how God treated us, we have looked upon them in their time of greatest need and turned our backs.
Jesus taught us how to love our neighbor by describing how to care for a battered, dying man. He doesn’t commend people to chase down the robbers and draw them out about their heart motives for robbing and nearly beating a man to death. Rather we are to care for the person with the most obvious need – the half dead man lying naked in his own blood on the side of the road!
The problem of sexual abuse isn’t limited to CLC or Fairfax or SGM. It has happened in countless churches the world over in numerous denominations. The same goes for pastors that have handled it dreadfully. If we’ve sat by silently (which I have) and let our pastors run roughshod over the hurting then we can’t just point our fingers at this man or that one without also pointing the finger at ourselves, too.
We let them do this. I, for one, want to scream when I think of all the times I quenched the Spirit and bit my tongue because I thought it was wrong not to submit to my leaders. It’s way past time for the people of SGM to take their rightful place among the priesthood of all believers. If we are truly to be the church of Jesus, extending real care to the hurting, there is only one application we can take away from the example of the good Samaritan – go and do likewise.
20 years, I know I have been gone, so I cant really speak for where they stand now in most things, but I can remember in the 80’s, we were looking to move, and I just KNEW that God wanted us to but this particular Townhouse. We were in a homegroup with Linda and Alan Redrup at the time..Well, several church members, Linda and Alan included, found where several houses were being built in Germantown. Chuck Thompson suggested that several families move there, like what Cj and the others did in Flower Hill..Linda was strongly encouraging me that we should also go. I did not think it was the right move for us, and she and I ‘battled” it for at least a week or two! (That was probably why Linda and I could be such good friends, because she had the guts to speak up to me)! Anyway, she kept saying, “But Chuck Thompson says Single family Homes appreciate better than Townhouses”, and Chuck Thompson says”…blah, blah..Finally, one day, she goes, “Well, fine, if you are going to put your desires over what God wants, then what can I say?” I told her, “You know what? I Know God wants me to have THIS Townhouse! I am NOT putting my desires before what God wants! I just dont care what Chuck Thompson wants!” They always thought I was difficult. :D
But, notice how Taylor said how much they praised her for being such a godly woman for NOT reporting it to the police first! That speaks VOLUMES right there!
From Gospel To Grace, you are so right! I never saw that story that way, but it is absolutely true! :goodpost
I agree that SGM’s situations of sex abuse are not unique. Sadly, these things happen all over the place, in all sorts of churches.
However, I don’t know of any other church that has systematically – even for a short while – responded the specific way that SGM leaders have responded. Most churches follow some sort of reporting policy. Most pastors would never dream of advising abuse victims not to seek outside professional counseling.
And while yes, it’s true that other non-SGM pastors may have responded poorly to abuse victims, I think SGM pastors’ rigid ideas about instant forgiveness and “all sins are created equal” are unusual to say the least, and have resulted in some spectacularly heartless and downright WEIRD responses to victims.
There’s something different about the sex abuse cases that took place within SGM churches several years back. It’s not just that the pastors turned a blind eye or minimized, or neglected to show compassion to victims. They did that, but they also seemed to go out of their way to show more compassion to the perpetrators.
I think it goes back to SGM’s weird ideas about one’s “worst sinner I know” status, where true victimhood is simply impossible.
I hope nobody minds, but I’m going to repost that comment I reposted in the other thread, about how all of this fits together to shape SGM’s insane response to victims.
Here is the comment, re-posted yet again because I think it might be helpful as it relates to our present discussion:
While I am the first to say that any coverup of sex abuse is horrific and evil, particularly when done by a church, I think it would be interesting to explore the mindset behind any such coverup.
What is it about their SGM training that would make SGM pastors respond to abusers in such a way? Why would SGM pastors appear to extend more grace to perpetrators than to victims? Why would SGM pastors believe that they should be the primary source of counsel and support for perpetrators? Why would SGM pastors exhibit a reluctance to get outside help or call upon law enforcement to deal with such perpetrators?
It’s my opinion that SGM’s twisted teachings about sin and the role of the pastor – as well as SGM’s blurring of the lines between “the gospel” and “the SGM church organization” – are what have led to situations where these sorts of crimes seem to be minimized, and perpetrators quickly restored to good standing within congregations.
First of all, SGM holds to the (in my opinion essentially correct and biblical) belief that all problems faced by humanity can be traced back to sin. I say I think it’s an “essentially correct and biblical belief” because if we dig through all the layers of human suffering and misery and downright evil, we are left with almost no other choice but to conclude that humanity is messy because humanity is fallen and sinful.
However, where I would part ways with SGM’s assumption is where SGM’s essentially correct belief about sin morphs into what SGM believes is the remedy for sin.
In SGM’s teachings – and if I wanted to take more time to develop this, I could go back and dig up plenty of quotes from books like Why Small Groups and sermons like CJ’s Happiest Place On Earth, as well as plenty of other resources that are available for the whole world to read and hear – the problem of sin is seen as being addressed by not just the work of Jesus on the cross and His continued presence with us through the Holy Spirit. SGM would say that Jesus’ work on the cross is now being “finished” or “completed” by how Christians relate to a “local” church and how Christians are affected by the work of the pastors in their lives.
In the book Why Small Groups? a case is laid out like this:
1. Yes, salvation is through Christ alone, through his atoning sacrifice.
2. Salvation, however, is separate from sanctification.
4. Although, sanctification WILL result anytime someone is “truly saved.”
5. Sanctification cannot happen apart from “biblical fellowship.” I actually am going to go and dig up a quote to back this one up. From Chapter 1 of Why Small Groups? comes this:
You can read the whole chapter to get an even better feel for how thoroughly CJ and his cohorts view participation in “biblical fellowship” a completely essential element of a person’s sanctification.
6. A key componant of “biblical fellowship” is interacting with people in a way where they freely confront you about your sin and where you humbly submit to others’ assessment of your sin.
(By the way – this principle is FOUNDATIONAL if anyone wants to understand the driving force behind Brent Detwiler’s seeming obsession with confronting CJ in his sins. In the SGM mindset, a lack of willingness to submit to others’ assessment of your sin and to acknowledge your sins when confronted with them is almost a sign that you are out of fellowship with God. If we can grasp this, we can understand why in Brent’s mind, CJ’s unwillingness to be confronted was so utterly grievous and dismaying. And why Brent continued his pursuit so doggedly…even as he talked about “grace,” which most Christians understand as letting someone off the hook. In SGM thinking, true “grace” must involve sticking with the confrontation no matter what, because unwillingness to acknowledge one’s sins when confronted would be a sign that the person is not being sanctified…which is a sign that the person could maybe not even be saved!)
7. Also, SGM believes that another essential part of “biblical fellowship” is a person’s continued oversight from his pastor, who also bears the responsibility to continue to confront the person on his sin. SGMers are taught that pastors, by virtue of their higher calling and “gifting,” possess special abilities to perceive a person’s sins more accurately than the person himself.
8. Essential to the SGM understanding of the gospel is a demonstration that one remains keenly aware of one’s “worst sinner one knows” status. I realize that this comment is already excruciatingly long, but I really want to lay this all out in one place, so I’m going to quote from another post:
9. We have to factor in SGM’s longstanding distrust of and total disdain for the mental health profession. SGM has long taught that “secular psychology” has absolutely nothing to offer the believer in terms of solving problems.
Anyway, to connect the dots of all this to the situations where SGM pastors were aware of sex abuse and seem to do nothing to address the problem legally…
If all problems are sin issues, and if all sin issues involve continued “biblical fellowship,” which – most importantly – includes continued confrontation from a pastor about one’s sins…
And if “secular psychology” presents no way for this to continue, but a pastor’s counsel does…
And if a perpetrator has acknowledged his sin to his pastor…
And if it is un-Christian (“sinful”) to ever feel like one has the right to be a total victim, with no corresponding need to focus on one’s own sin…
Then it makes total sense for the SGM pastor to:
1. Appear to side with the perpetrator.
2. Believe that his pastoral counsel is all that is needed.
3. Believe that he is actually better serving the victim through his position, because he is making it more difficult for the victim to pursue what would be sin – i.e. being a victim and “demonstrating unforgiveness” by pursuing justice through the legal system.
4. Consequently believe that through all of this, he is “protecting the gospel” or some such, because the SGM gospel is all about confronting and rooting out sin, never having the right to be a victim, and demonstrating one’s salvation status by the sanctification process of confessing one’s sins – which a perpetrator has already done, therefore making the perpetrator “more sanctified” than someone who is trying to get justice as a victim.
El Pastor I do agree. I do not understand why the Pastor have not been bought up on charges by our United States justice system.
One other observation/question I had about Taylor’s story involves the following:
I wonder, what in the world could have motivated these pastors’ driving need to keep this situation secret?
And, isn’t it ridiculous that these men accused Taylor of “gossip,” when she was merely discussing HER OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE!
It’s not “gossip” if it’s about yourself! Don’t these dummies know this?
As to a pastor’s role in times of suffering I’ll let Dave Harvey speak for himself from the Am I Called Perspectives book (p.23-24):
Kris, what perfect sense that all makes, logically! They are dead wrong, but now I understand how they may have come to that ideology! I initially thought, with my situation, that is was youth and ignorance, and maybe a bit “loving money”. After reading some other stories here, I realized it was definitely NOT youth or ignorance, but still perhaps the love of money, and a bit of “the good old boy club”, or even the “men are on the top” way of thinking. This does shed yet another light on the subject, and I can totally see their rationalization..but, yet, I do wonder, is it just a “rationalization” to justify greed and lust for power? We may never know THAT answer, but God does. Nevertheless, no matter what, we really DO need to take a stand for the sake of the innocents falling victim in this horrific catastrophe that still continues! No matter what their reasoning, or how they arrived at it, there are obviously children, and likely many of them, who are at risk! I think this type of victimization has probably only grown in this environment!
OK, I’m calmed down enough to make sense (stop laughing.)
First, all of you people that have the courage to share this and similar stories on this forum, you have my prayers, concerns, and admiration.
Second, how many more? How many more are there, Lord?
Third, what is SGM doing to make them such a cozy place at which a pervert sets up housekeeping?
Let me count the many reasons.
1) Denial is not just a river in Egypt and DH and his cohorts got hit with the denial stick.
2) Little children went to CLC’s school and many if not most had their pants pulled down and beaten. One step in the wrong direction.
3) Children are rendered ulnerable to predation because they’re taught to obey. How many parenting books over the years have the word OBEY or one of its variations on the cover.
4) Kids that grew up in families…OUR FAMILIES!!! are now grown adults and the way we were Kool Aided into mistreating our own children is rendering me griefstricken. Almost daily (or, if you were some people 40X daily) beating sessons the entire 4 or was it 5 step process that often got caught in an endless loop when the parents discerened an attitude and gave another beating HELLO?! YOU’Re BEATING THE SNOT OUT OF YOUR KID: THEY SHOULd BE TOUTING A TUDE!!! The knots in the stomach the home as not a safe haven for the children, no, there is a wooden spoon in every room, there is no escape!!!
5) Men do not need encouragement to dominate and grow their ego. Women tend to need to learn self-worth and the opposite is taught aggresively at SGM; men are supposed to lead and women and children are to obey.
Blindly.
This message over and over again.
It is never the man’s fault, the woman eventually gets blamed for not being submissive or being bitter or whatever.
6) One of the main reasons women were created was to service their husbands sexually. This is reinforced by teachings from women like Carolyn Mahaney. No excuses, you could be sick as a dog but service your man. Taylor was given how to sex books to serice some creepoid that shouldn’t be physically able to have an erection (If I had anything to do with justice, he’d be Lorena Bobbitted and I wouldn’t have disposed of the, ahem, evidence by tossing the jiblets out the window, nope that waste of DNA would have gone straight down the garbage disposal.
7) If I didn’t make myself clear with point 6, if you are a pastor and you need to deal with a child molester, do NOT give his poor wife a technical manuel on how to pleasure the man, that right there tells me volumes about the pastors.
8) When you aggrandize men and objectify women and children, you have created a sense of privilege and entitlement on the part of the men. That plus a pervert = the plague of cases that are creeping out of the proerbial woodwork. You are not responsible for the twisted mind of the pervert. You ARE guilty of inflaming his perversion with a sense of priilege and entitlement, you are guilty of creating a safe place for him, you are responsible for parenting philosophies that make out children vulnerable to predation, and yet you look in the mirror and like what you see.
Denial is not just a river that runs through Egypt, it is a river that runs through far too many hearts.
That story made me sick to my stomach. I am so terribly sorry for that woman and for her family. I am disgusted beyond words at that “father” and am working hard to restrain myself from using much darker language to refer to him.
Both he and the pastors of that church should be in jail where they can do no more harm.
@ Claude, I do believe the reason these men have escaped the scrutiny of the justice system so far is because they have been able to separate those who had a valid complaint, or to “discredit” their story, and keep them isolated, “playing the gossip card”. What Guy and Kris have done here is to create a place where those who have been victimized can meet, and get support from one another. I do believe this is only the beginning..God is not mocked..the Truth will come to light..He is just so much more patient than we are! The wheels are churning, for sure! It will not be much longer-look how much has happened just recently! It certainly is not over!
justsayin #50 (#102 #103 & #110 Harvey video)
The court report bothers me as a basis for discrediting (or fostering major doubt) in the testimonies on this blog. Why? well lawyers and sheriffs and bailiff’s actually try to steer people in a certain way… and in court the lawyers who present the witnesses testimony coach them how to be convincing and how not to get tripped up by the opposing lawyers cross examiniation.
I agree with CLCer’s Mom when she shares that the MAIN points of the story are accurate. (she has the biblical 2-3 witnesses)
exCLCer’s Mom –
One thought I have about how money might possibly be connected to all of this is that it’s probably NOT about these pastors’ own personal gain. I’m fairly certain that none of these SGM guys is living the high life.
I know some people will disagree with me, but I also don’t really think that SGM pastors are in it for money on a congregational level, either.
What I do think is that for a lot of these pastors, a measure of apparent financial success in their churches is interpreted by them as a sign of God’s blessing on their churches. When the tithes and offerings are coming in well, I think these guys see this as God’s endorsement of what they’re doing. The SGM “gospel” is working for them. So when something comes along that they see as possibly “threatening the [SGM] gospel,” and since they know – through financial “proof” – that God is honoring the [SGM] gospel, they feel all the more urgent a need to preserve the SGM way.
That’s how I think money ties in with this. It’s not so much that SGM pastors want money for themselves, or even for their churches…except as an endorsement that they must be having success promoting the [SGM] gospel.
Taylor, I have been sitting here sick and crying after reading your story. I wish I had words but for now I do not. I am terribly, terribly sorry to hear what happened to your daughter and the hands of your ex and your pastors. I am terribly, terribly sorry what happened to you and to the rest of your family, as well.
Stunned
and sickened
justsayin #50 (#102 #103 & #110 Harvey video)
In a little way I understand your desire for people not piling on based on one person’s story but I must say you have a lot of nerve to try to correct a whole blog and all the people that contribute using Court studies to show the problem of remembering correctly. You seem to swoop in as some moderator in the sky to adjust everyone. (I hope that was not your attempt)
Could you limit your contributions to specific incidents or discussions to address real people as to the memories? They can answer and the dialog can be constructive.
Long-time commenter, new name,
Thank you for the courage to share your story. I wish we could all sit in the same room and keep each other company in these dark times. Please know that at least for now, you are no longer alone.
Stunned
Kris
Thanks for all your wonderful insights and for giving a platform to the wounded to tell their stories. I pray their voices will not go unheard.
One question… how big a part of the problem is the sacred vs the secular play? In many of the cases presented SGM vilifies the secular authorities… what do believers have to do with civil courts to settle problems between Christians? And then SGM takes on the mandate of reconciling the various parties to heart with very little understanding or knowledge of the dynamics of child abuse. it’s just a Christian court issue they seem to say… we must solve the dispute in church and don’t go out to the world to solve our problems. It disgraces the church to go to civil courts and authorities to resolve things between christians! What do you think? Any merit?
I see exactly what you are saying, Kris, and I do think I agree with you. I just remember when GOB first started, and we were happy praising God in the park, if the janitor didn’t show up to open the High School doors. It was all about pouring the funds back into taking care of God’s people-not just pastors, but church members, and others in need. I almost felt like heaven on earth back then! Then, they got a “financial manager” to come in-Chuck Thompson-he was a neighbor to Larry Tomczak. I do not know enough to speak on whether Chuck’s influence was good or bad, I just know that was when they started examining “using God’s money wisely”, saying it would be best invested in a building, where we could use it for so many purposes-it all made sense, really. Then, I still remember the day when Chuck got up before the church one Sunday Mornign, and spoke about the “demographics” of the Gaithersburg area-how they wanted to “reach out” to this certain age of people, and this certain “level of income”..It all started to sound so much more like a business. Next thing I noticed, there was fancy expensive furniture in the church offices, with paintings that still had price tags on them. The snack machines were full of the top dollar stuff-perrier, smoked almonds..yet they started to quibble about subsidizing the tuition for the lower income members’ kids to come to the school. I remember saying something to one of them about it-how materialistic and shallow it seemed. They didn’t like that. Then, every Sunday, more and more time was spent on “testimonies for the building fund”..it was a really big deal in the mid 80’s. Somewhere along that line, I definitely saw a change. Was anyone else here around for that who noticed those changes? Are you saying that those guys are the “big dogs” now in SGM, and that is where it is all going? Their love of money or not, is really not the issue for me anyway-I was just curious..
Puck Lover said, “I am not a psychologist but firmly believe that the most important action that you can take is to get counseling for the both of you from a therapist with experience in this field. Most locations across the country have access to a child advocacy center which can help with all aspects of what you have experienced.”
Amen, Puck Lover! Please, to anyone here who has reading who has not received extensive care through professional therapists, please consider contact one for help. Your SGM pastor will not have been adequate enough. You need more care. You do.
El Pastor said, “If these pastors acted this way, they should be out of the ministry. Period. Please, all you who were so abused, know that this is not Jesus Christ, but proud men taking his name to cover their own darkness.”
YES! True, El Pastor. Cruelty. Out of the ministry. Period. This is not Jesus Christ. Proud men taking his name to cover their own darkness.
exCLCer’s Mom, I am so sorry that you had such jerks in your own homegroup. No wonder they did so little to truly rescue your children. Some day they will see. Let’s hope it’s not too far in the future.
ExClcer’sMom #85 I agree… the whole culture of not gossiping or telling anyone else about your situation enables pastors to separate out an individual. The pastors (though not all the time) will share with each other about a person’s problem or complaint. They of course are not guilty of gossiping… they are all part of the solution! So they unknowningly (or knowingly as the case might be) gang up on church members who are first intimidated by authority (almost everyone is to some extent) and secondly intimidated even more by how pastoral authority is presented in SGM, using scriptures like don’t make your pastor’s job hard (Hebrews)…
plus add one more caveat… you will not be heard if your attitude is not right. That will definitely shut a church lamb down. CGL’s are welcome to add their attitude observations also. :(
Kris,
re: #77, yes I would agree with your comment about the weird responses to victims.
re: #78, thank you for reposting the most insightful comment I’ve ever read on this blog. You accurately pointed out the logical fallacy of SGM’s doctrine of sin.
As to why SGM pastors would act this way, I’ll quote Dave Harvey from the same Perspectives book again (p.11-12):
I honestly think SGM pastors believe they have a special grace from God to lead their churches, a grace not given to those in their congregations. Harvey himself implicitly states as much in the quote above, creating a two-tiered Christianity in SGM. Those who lead and those who follow. Leaders lead, and followers don’t ask questions. Elsewhere in his book Harvey says pastors are to “make decisions that will shape the future of the church”, “help unbelievers and believers see how the gospel speaks to their lives”, “corral the vision into workable strategies that can make it a reality”, “turn strategies into plans that generally work as intended”, and “set the example of what you want others to aspire to.” (p.20)
What all this means in practice is that pastors become functional gods to their congregations. Your pastor’s response to a childrearing situation becomes your response to the same childrearing situation. Not because he explicitly told you to do it but because he’s the example you’re supposed to model. You make decisions in your life (job, housing, etc) based on your pastor’s priorities for the church. Your sex life should look like your pastor’s sex life. If it doesn’t then you’re doing something wrong. If your husband molests your daughter and your pastor blames you for not making yourself available then you believe him and force yourself to have sex with a man who’s violated his child in the most horrible way imaginable.
If that all sounds crazy, that’s because it is.
My heart goes out to Taylor, her child, and every other victim of abuse enabled by SGM’s flawed doctrines and practices.
The Proverbs 18:17 reference was not to Taylor, but to everyone in the comments thread that immediately made judgments based on one side of the story. That is not to say Taylor’s story isn’t true. And that’s not to say those who have potentially wronged Taylor haven’t had ample opportunity to come forth.
I would also affirm the heinousness of this type sin and the absolute horror of going through such a thing.
Having said that, it’s important to remember that making judgments when all you have is one side of the story goes against Biblical wisdom. And no amount of ‘experience’ with these type of situations or ‘inside’ knowledge of these type of occurrences within SGM trumps Proverbs 18:17. Taylor probably needs a lot of things, but a fool isn’t one of them (Proverbs 18:13)
ExClcer’sMom you are right on the money, I remember those days as I would visit the church office when it was on Randoph Road. I committed many dollars for SGM building funds in Gaithersburg and Fairfax.
For What It’s Worth, were you at the cov Fel meeting last night? I know New Jersey had their meeting tonight. I assume the wagon’s are circliing because something new is brewing? Or am I completely off? Please, anyone report.