Why Sovereign Grace Ministries Doesn’t Like Victims
September 2, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Awhile back, some of us got to talking about what would possibly cause pastors in Sovereign Grace Ministries churches to have responded the way they did in situations like “Noel’s Story,” “Wallace’s Story,” and “Taylor’s Story.” While Dave Harvey would like to think of these situations as a few rare and isolated incidents, the fact that the pastoral responses to victims of child sex abuse were nearly identical would seem to indicate that there is something going on in these men’s belief system and training that has caused them to be more concerned about the rights and well-being of perpetrators rather than victims.
During that discussion, I posted a comment that contained a round-up of some thoughts and observations that I thought laid out a pretty good explanation for why SGM pastors would work so hard to minimize the victim’s response to abuse, keep the situation contained within the church (not involve law enforcement, and in some situations even seem to actively work against supporting the victim in the legal system), and as quickly as possible “restore” the perpetrator.
Here’s the comment. I apologize in advance for its length.
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While I am the first to say that any coverup of sex abuse is horrific and evil, particularly when done by a church, I think it would be interesting to explore the mindset behind any such coverup.
What is it about their SGM training that would make SGM pastors respond to abusers in such a way? Why would SGM pastors appear to extend more grace to perpetrators than to victims? Why would SGM pastors believe that they should be the primary source of counsel and support for perpetrators? Why would SGM pastors exhibit a reluctance to get outside help or call upon law enforcement to deal with such perpetrators?
It’s my opinion that SGM’s twisted teachings about sin and the role of the pastor – as well as SGM’s blurring of the lines between “the gospel” and “the SGM church organization” – are what have led to situations where these sorts of crimes seem to be minimized, and perpetrators quickly restored to good standing within congregations.
First of all, SGM holds to the (in my opinion essentially correct and biblical) belief that all problems faced by humanity can be traced back to sin. I say I think it’s an “essentially correct and biblical belief” because if we dig through all the layers of human suffering and misery and downright evil, we are left with almost no other choice but to conclude that humanity is messy because humanity is fallen and sinful.
However, where I would part ways with SGM’s assumption is where SGM’s essentially correct belief about sin morphs into what SGM believes is the remedy for sin.
In SGM’s teachings – and if I wanted to take more time to develop this, I could go back and dig up plenty of quotes from books like Why Small Groups and sermons like CJ’s Happiest Place On Earth, as well as plenty of other resources that are available for the whole world to read and hear – the problem of sin is seen as being addressed by not just the work of Jesus on the cross and His continued presence with us through the Holy Spirit. SGM would say that Jesus’ work on the cross is now being “finished” or “completed” by how Christians relate to a “local” church and how Christians are affected by the work of the pastors in their lives.
In the book Why Small Groups? (available as a free download here) a case is laid out like this:
1. Yes, salvation is through Christ alone, through his atoning sacrifice.
2. Salvation, however, is separate from sanctification.
4. Although, sanctification WILL result anytime someone is “truly saved.”
5. Sanctification cannot happen apart from “biblical fellowship.” I actually am going to go and dig up a quote to back this one up. From Chapter 1 of Why Small Groups? comes this:
Although one’s personal responsibility for sanctification remains paramount, sanctification cannot be accomplished in isolation from the local church. Scripture clearly teaches that sanctification is intended to take place in the local church—and small groups contribute invaluably to this process.
You can read the whole chapter to get an even better feel for how thoroughly CJ and his cohorts view participation in “biblical fellowship” a completely essential element of a person’s sanctification.
6. A key componant of “biblical fellowship” is interacting with people in a way where they freely confront you about your sin and where you humbly submit to others’ assessment of your sin. I would strongly urge people to read Why Small Groups? if they have not already done so, and examine how narrowly and explicitly “biblical fellowship” is defined, and how it almost cannot take place anywhere but in a small group set up and run the way SGM runs small groups.
(By the way – this principle is FOUNDATIONAL if anyone wants to understand the driving force behind Brent Detwiler’s seeming obsession with confronting CJ in his sins. In the SGM mindset, a lack of willingness to submit to others’ assessment of your sin and to acknowledge your sins when confronted with them is almost a sign that you are out of fellowship with God. If we can grasp this, we can understand why in Brent’s mind, CJ’s unwillingness to be confronted was so utterly grievous and dismaying. And why Brent continued his pursuit so doggedly…even as he talked about “grace,” which most Christians understand as letting someone off the hook. In SGM thinking, true “grace” must involve sticking with the confrontation no matter what, because unwillingness to acknowledge one’s sins when confronted would be a sign that the person is not being sanctified…which is a sign that the person could maybe not even be saved!)
7. Also, SGM believes that another essential part of “biblical fellowship” is a person’s continued oversight from his pastor, who also bears the responsibility to continue to confront the person on his sin. SGMers are taught that pastors, by virtue of their higher calling and “gifting,” possess special abilities to perceive a person’s sins more accurately than the person himself. You can read a transcript of C.J. Mahaney’s Happiest Place On Earth sermon here. C.J. has traveled around the country, delivering that sermon to many SGM churches over the years. While (once again) Dave Harvey would now apparently like people to think that SGM does not teach that pastors have special authority over people, that is simply not true.
8. Essential to the SGM understanding of the gospel is a demonstration that one remains keenly aware of one’s “worst sinner one knows” status. I realize that this comment is already excruciatingly long, but I really want to lay this all out in one place, so I’m going to quote from another post:
Deeply embedded in the SGM mindset are some assumptions:
1. All sins are just as vile in the eyes of God.
2. One of the clearest signs of “rebellion” is when a person sees himself as an injured party, because no injury that can be perpetrated against the person could ever surpass the horror that the person’s own sin is in the eyes of God.
3. The clearest sign of a “repentant” person is eager confession of wrongdoing.
Taking those three SGM assumptions, let’s examine Noel’s pastors’ response to her family’s situation. In light of these assumptions, I think we can more clearly understand a bit of what went through those pastors’ minds as they offered more sympathy and support to the perp rather than the victims. Even though the pastoral responses are basically incomprehensible to a normal person, they sort of start to make sense when you think of it in this way:
Because of SGM’s belief that each of us must always be “the worst sinner that we ourselves know,” we basically give up our rights to ANY victimhood, no matter how heinous the crime committed against us.
In other words, even though what happened to Noel’s family was absolutely horrific, SGM’s foundational teachings would say that Noel’s only legitimate “biblical” response would be to examine her own sinfulness and see herself as “the worst sinner” she knows. Her pastors would see it as their duty to direct Noel’s attention first of all to her own indwelling sin, her own wretchedness in God’s eyes. I believe they sincerely think that this is “bringing the Gospel into” everything they do. For them, “the Gospel” is firstly and foremostly about our own sin.
But instinctively, we know that something is jacked up in this view. God’s own Word would tell us that He does see some sins as having broader and more lasting consequences than other sins. Yes, all sin is an abomination in God’s eyes…theoretically. But we all know the REALITY, that if I go out and kill someone, there are far more ramifications all the way around than if I lie by calling in sick to work one day when I’m not actually sick and just want to go shopping with my friends. Both the murder and the lie are sins in God’s eyes and both are wretched, but if you lie to me, I’m probably going to be less upset than if you kill someone near and dear to me.
In SGMville, though, this normal human reaction – one that the even the Bible would seem to support, if you examine how God outlined so many very specific laws and guidelines governing behavior for Old Testament Israel – is circumvented. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been the victim of a liar or a murderer. In your SGM pastor’s mind, you’ve got NO RIGHT to see yourself as a victim, of any sort. In order to “bring the Gospel in,” they’re duty-bound to remind you of your own sinfulness, like it’s some sort of tonic for the normal grief that you might feel because of the ramifications of the sin that was perpetrated against you…like somehow, if I as the victim can just focus on my own badness, I’ll forget that someone molested my child.
So OK. In SGMville, all sins are created equal.
Now, enter the perp. Perp expresses sorrow and remorse for his sin. He truly IS the “worst sinner that he knows,” so such a mindset comes easily and naturally to him. In the eyes of his SGM pastors, he automatically then becomes the “more righteous” person, since his response is the only “truly biblical” repsonse that they can find acceptable.
It gets worse if the victim stands up for himself/herself in any fashion. SGM pastors immediately see this as unforgiveness, which of course is a sin, which then makes the victim even WORSE than the remorseful (and therefore righteous) perp.
Again, I did not think of this myself. Someone else initially posted these general thoughts. But I thought these were some brilliant observations that did far more to shed light on Noel’s pastors’ really twisted and bizarre behavior than just about anything else.
To me, this helps to make sense of why, in SGMville, the victims are minimized while the perps are protected. It’s because in SGMville, the only thing that is really righteous is seeing oneself as “the worst sinner one knows.” If one has had a crime – particularly a heinous crime like child abuse – perpetrated against one, there is NO HONEST WAY that one can authentically and enthusiastically embrace “worst sinner” status in one’s thinking. One instinctively knows that someone else’s sin (in this case, one’s perp’s sin) is greater than one’s own sin. So one naturally raises objections to embracing “worst sinner” status.
SGM pastors sense this and seem to hone in on it, interpreting standing up for oneself as a sign of pride and sin and unforgiveness.
Meanwhile, the perp is over in his corner crying his genuine tears of sorrow. Because he truly IS the “worst sinner he knows” at that moment, he is more righteous, and hence more worthy of protection.
9. We have to factor in SGM’s longstanding distrust of and total disdain for the mental health profession. SGM has long taught that “secular psychology” has absolutely nothing to offer the believer in terms of solving problems. (You can see what was taught to SGM pastors fairly recently – in 2009 – about the “counseling process” by viewing a transcript of that talk. Access Part 1 here, Part 2 here, and Part 3 here.)
Anyway, to connect the dots of all this to the situations where SGM pastors were aware of sex abuse and seem to do nothing to address the problem legally…
If all problems are sin issues, and if the only solution to all sin issues (sanctification) must involve continued “biblical fellowship,” which – most importantly – includes continued confrontation from a pastor about one’s sins…
And if “secular psychology” presents no way for this to continue, but a pastor’s counsel does…
And if a perpetrator has acknowledged his sin to his pastor…
And if it is un-Christian (“sinful”) to ever feel like one has the right to be a total victim, with no corresponding need to focus on one’s own sin…
Then it makes total sense for the SGM pastor to:
1. Appear to side with the perpetrator.
2. Believe that his pastoral counsel is all that is needed.
3. Believe that he is actually better serving the victim through his position, because he is making it more difficult for the victim to pursue what would be sin – i.e. being a victim and “demonstrating unforgiveness” by pursuing justice through the legal system.
4. Consequently believe that through all of this, he is “protecting the gospel” or some such, because the SGM gospel is all about confronting and rooting out sin, never having the right to be a victim, and demonstrating one’s salvation status by the sanctification process of confessing one’s sins – which a perpetrator has already done, therefore making the perpetrator “more sanctified” than someone who is trying to get justice as a victim.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Steve, the SGM view of psychology is backward and ignorant.
While there are some psychologists who espouse the theory that all humans are essentially good, there are others who understand the scriptural teaching that we are fallen beings and in need of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
David Johnson, who authored The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, a book commonly cited here, is a Christian psychologist and pastor. Stephen Arterburn, author of Toxic Faith, is also a professional counselor. Tim LaHaye is both a pastor and a counselor who has written many books on the human personality.
God created the mind and its workings. He alone knows us inside and out. As far as I’m concerned Freud and the others you mentioned may have discovered some truths about the mind, but they hardly represent psychology in its true light as designed by God. The book of Proverbs delves into the workings of the human mind and could be said to be a book on the psychology of man.
I do believe Christians should be very careful in choosing a psychologist because, like any profession, there are some real quacks out there. But to avoid all psychology because it is considered sin is ignorance.
#49:”What really concerns me is the reports of SGM Leaders not seeing the need and preaching against medication for some psychiatric conditions. These are the same men that will take medication for allergies and cholesterol issues but then will turn around and not see the need for medication for some psychiatric conditions.”
Steve, I am not sure if this occurs in SGM the way it did (reportedly) in the 1990s. I think this was actually part of the whole “have faith in God” thing going on that told people to trust not with their psych issues and not take their meds. That God would somehow “cure” their problems. I think churches started forgoing this kind of ideology once the whole Andrea Yates case came out and killed her 5 children due to her extreme psychosis and being off her meds..
Take home message is: No one besides a psychiatrist can adequatedly determine whether an individual with a mental health issue needs medication or not. I certainly wouldn’t trust a pastor, with no official medical background, to make that determination. As any professional, you can only make determinations based on your body of knowledge. Last I heard, Psychiatric Pharmacology is not included (usually) in a pastor’s body of knowledge.
Very good points in this post, and I suspect have far reaching consequences beyond the pastoral responses notes on the OP. It seems a good overall summary of much which is wrong with sgm.
I think also of my own parenting – do I hone in on an aggrieved child’s angry response to the detriment of addressing the instigating sibling.
Justawife said: #52
“Take home message is: No one besides a psychiatrist can adequatedly determine whether an individual with a mental health issue needs medication or not. I certainly wouldn’t trust a pastor, with no official medical background, to make that determination. As any professional, you can only make determinations based on your body of knowledge. Last I heard, Psychiatric Pharmacology is not included (usually) in a pastor’s body of knowledge.” :goodpost
Lauren, thanks for that sermon link — very instructive. I remember hearing sermons like that as a teenager in SGM, and it’s interesting to go back and hear it again now after leaving and my mind has completely changed toward SGM. One of things that hurt the most listening to it today was the laughter in the room as CJ made his jokes about what would come to have devastating consequences in SGM. Had I been there, I would have been one of the people laughing at that time, a lemming unaware of what I was heading toward. Now so grateful to have been set free.
I am struck by what you lay out as being SGM’s view of salvation, that it is through Christ’s atoning sacrifice. That is part of it, but Rom. 5:10 says we will be saved through Christ’s life. Reconciliation (atonement) and Justification are not “Salvation.” My feeling is that they have gotten rid of Justice as an attribute of God in their understanding of the atonement. That is why they are unsympathetic (don’t like) victims. I have heard it said that justice is the last thing that any of us should want. The only justice a man could possibly get would to be left in his sins and experience for himself God’s wrath against them. So in Christ, it is said, we don’t get justice, we get mercy. The idea that in Christ God could be both just and the justifier of those who come to him just doesn’t fit the neat little system that gives them so much a sense of power. I think that if SGM didn’t ignore the new life we have in Christ and the indwelling of the Spirit there wouldn’t be so much authoritarianism or a need for care groups in order to pursue sanctification. The problem is with their view of salvation and the gospel. Good call to connect it to their lack of compassion for victims.
Argo #1 – I see your point. When I said that we were taught at seminary that pastors out to refer – but not drop out altogether – what that meant was to guard against feeling like a pastor could, for lack of a better way of saying it, “wipe your hands clean of the person.”
It wasn’t to be part of the counseling process per se, since I agree with you that most pastors are not trained for that, but rather to stay involved as a friend of the person, to maintain communication with the professional counselor to discover ways of helping. It was mostly so that the pastor could learn from the professional counselor how to be of most help in the situation – not to aid in the counseling itself. To avoid causing the person to feel like the pastor just dropped them off somewhere and forgot about them. Does that make sense?
Hope that answers your question.
SGM vs Psychology
SGM’s aversion to referring secular psychology to those they counsel, may be as simple as the same reasons why an abusive husband would be fearful of his wife seeing a therapist….where she might be offered insight contradictory to what he has tried so hard to make her believe so far….she might even start to think she has control over her own choices….she might leave him!
The basic tenants of secular psychology definitely contradict SGM’s practices, since psychology is based on a view of the world which is incompatible with the ground rules of their organization.
Secular humanistic psychology promotes an “internal locus of control”. “Locus”(latin for “location”) can either be INTERNAL (meaning a person believes they have the control in their life) or EXTERNAL (meaning they believe that a higher power, or other people can/should control their life and its outcomes). When a person believes that they control their own destiny through choices, judgment, and conscience, research says they tend to take more responsibility for their behavior than those who have an external locus of control. An external locus of control can, at first, make individuals very optimistic, hopeful, and avoid short term anxiety over situations in their life, truly believing an external source will resolve anything they would otherwise worry over. Unfortunately these individuals also often face depression and severe disappointment if/when that external power doesn’t produce the results they believed it would, along with guilt and remorse if/when they realize, in hindsight, they had the opportunity for more control over the situation and results, but instead waited on an external resolution.
Many scriptures are used to reinforce an external locus of control (or predestination), even placing “receiving mercy” and “being chosen” as something they can work towards but really have no say in:
“For many are called, but few [are] chosen.”
Matt 22:14
“Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.”
Rom 9:15/18
Even in a church which doesn’t preach predestination, but instead touts “free will”, (where you can choose your destiny), it is often implied that your human instincts, choices and judgments are sinful and something to constantly repress and fight against, in order for external controls to save you from yourself. (ie. “You can CHOOSE what path you want, but if it differs from what we/god/church/group would choose for you according to our rules and beliefs, then you are freely choosing an inferior alternative which will surely result tragically for you”). So if you disagree, its paramount to being free to choose between a firing squad and a gangplank – not REALLY a choice, is it?
By accepting predestination or by suppressing internal controls the believer then forcefully rejects the possibility (or advantages) of exercising his or her own will, and accepts the belief that “One’s course of life is/should be directed by an external source”. Once this belief is obtained and internalized, it is highly questionable whether people subscribing to such an orientation can contribute to anything but a development of an external locus of control in others.
A positive perception of one’s own self, (self-esteem), is the most precious of our psychological possessions. Feeling good about you is one requirement of mental healthiness, while lacking in self-esteem would be considered psychological unhealthiness. Self-esteem (just like the locus of control) is a product of experiences, largely influenced by the feedback a person receives from significant others. When believers are made to feel small and worthless, (worm like, sinful from birth) in contrast with an external source, it serves to further reinforce and external locus of control. It’s the same unbalanced power differential seen in relationships where one person aggrandizes himself by disparaging the weaker/lesser person by constantly reminding them of their “smallness”. –A manipulative trick with long term psychological consequences, most easily used on people who already believe their worth and goodness is based on an external source of affirmation.
Secular psychology promotes social values like equality, pluralism, and democracy. Accepting differences is at the healthy end of the spectrum, where guilt inducing and belittling of others at the individual/group level is at the opposite (unhealthy) end. These basic social values often directly contradict teachings which elevate men over women and pastors over congregants, everyone over children, and reiterate a focus on sinful nature, etc. An absolute reality and an objection to equality is fundamental to the system. Also this kind of thinking completely counteracts normal cognitive development, in which simple dilemmas (good or bad, black or white) progressively make way for confusing and complex labeling, only furthering the need for an external source (a pastor maybe?) to guide/direct you through every single life dilemma.
SGM and Psychology mix like oil and water.
#52 – “No one besides a psychiatrist can adequatedly determine whether an individual with a mental health issue needs medication or not.” :goodpost
Even psychologists are NOT Psychiatrists. Psychiatrist are medical doctors who treat diagnosed mental illnesses, often through essential medications, and someone with a diagnosed mental illness should no more be treated for their illness by a pastor or therapist, than a cancer patient should.
Kris wrote,
“I would actually say that while CJ Mahaney may have a special hatred for “secular psychology,” it is fairly common in Reformed circles these days to believe that psychology is diametrically opposed to the Bible and therefore provides nothing helpful for the Christian.”
It is so sad and shames the Gospel to have such vocal closed-minded Christians making fools of themselves to a watching world.
“I can actually see how they arrive at this view. The foundational theories of psychology (Freud’s, Skinner’s, Erikson’s, Roger’s, Adler’s, Piaget’s, and so forth) all start with the assumption that humanity is essentially good (or at least morally neutral, until our parents jack with us). ”
The aforementioned people are not a unified voice, not even close to a unified voice.
Also, as a scientist (actually hopefully going into Neuroscience as well as Genetics) I cannot make assumptions about the essential goodness or badness of human beings. The rules of the game are to make a hypothesis and then go about deciding if you wer right or wrong by conducting experiments and/or making observations.
People are rarely right about everything and they must adapt their ideas and modify the hypothesis and test it again.
Understanding how the brain works and developing ways of treating it when things aren’t right is no different than treating a pancreas that is not working well or a kidney or broken bone, etc.
I just had my first Neuropharmacology class last night and it was awesome. Each one of us has 100 billion neurons which is the same number of stars an average galaxy possesses; isn’t that amazing?
DB -Im so jealous! I wish I was taking a Neuropharmacology class! “Mind wide open” is just the most recent book Ive enjoyed on the workings of the brain – I have shelves full of brain books and I cant ever seem to get enough — I have a private obsession with brains – haha. A galaxy of neurons in our head— I love it!! Yes it definitely IS amazing!!!
Lauren, #52, “The book of Proverbs delves into the workings of the human mind and could be said to be a book on the psychology of man. ” I agree with this statement. I have been studying Proverbs lately and with all the descriptions of a fool -I can’t help but think of a narcissist.
Kris, regarding this post in general, I want to thank you SO MUCH. As I was reading it I was thinking YES on so many levels. I was able to see so many people and issues around me more clearly. This post i am printing off and carrying around with me for awhile. thank you, thank you!!!
I haven’t had time to read every post on this thread but it is a topic that finally tipped me toward leaving my SGM church, which is the only church I have ever known. As a sidebar, I alluded to this to a member who’s been in the church since TAG. It will be interesting to see how that turns out.
I bought into the “anti-psycho” mentality right away and “led” my family that direction. I spanked my children in order to be obedient to God because someone wiser than me said I should even though every ounce of my soul cringed because I was severely beaten as a child regularly and one of my children didn’t respond well to it. As a matter of fact it was so obvious it was making him an angry, hateful child that I stopped and was eventually told, by persons implicated in MANY other posts and BD docs, that his rebellion is directly due to my not using the rod more. The approach of “forgiveness and sanctification only” has done nothing in my 12 years at this SGM church to deal with what I am now realizing is DEEP resentment and pain from my childhood. No I was never sexually abused (I truly thank God after hearing these testimonies) but I was abused none the less and I don’t fit the mold any longer. Actually I never did and I’m done trying. How exactly does forgiving my parents and looking at myself as the “worst sinner I know” help me deal with the lifelong affects of being beaten regularly? I’ve ignored the past because it supposedly was dealt with on the Cross and God will be the final Judge. This I believe and understand BUT it does nothing to dig out and deal with the years of abuse and it’s affects on me today. Like it or not, it DOES affect me today. By God’s grace I’ve never beaten my children. Each time I spanked them I made sure I did not go into that angry and it was a calculated number of swats, usually 2 or 3 at most, but it ripped me apart and until recently I didn’t know why.
I wish I could divulge more of my wife and I’s testimony but that will make it quite clear to many who I am and I’m not ready for that yet. I will say that my wife has a worse childhood because she was sexually abused and had multiple abortions, and that as well as many other things plays heavily into who she is today despite what we are told we are supposed to be. Because of my blindness to this I’ve treated her as the worst sinner I know and have extended no compassion to her or understanding about what she’s been through. Her salvation has been called into question because she’s not the “submissive” wife she’s supposed to be, sometimes.
I have found myself bursting into tears while reading this blog over the last few months. A lot of tears are for the victims and families of those sharing here. Most of the tears lately are due to the realization of my ignorance and what I’ve done to my family for the last 12 years. Some of the tears are from the pain of the past I’ve never dealt with, but my forgiving my parents should cure that right?
Praise God the story isn’t over yet and I can still reverse course with my family. I’ve heard great teachings and been counseled well most of my time at this SGM church but I am gravely concerned about the “closed culture” and being under the care of those not trained in any way to deal with these issues. However, leaving the only church I’ve ever known isn’t easy at all. My wife and I both came to Christ through this church. I trust God will lead us and He will keep my sin from taking over again during this very weak time in my spiritual walk.
:worm
Just as a clarification. My wife’s abortions are NOT due to the sexual abuse, which as far as I know happened once.
Our pastor at Sovereign Grace did teach on the pushing of drugs on people rather than pursuing the causes of some depressions as being wrong. I do believe he was correct in that. However, he also was a pharmacist and he had seen people healed and a relieved from good prescriptions. He was against them becoming a crutch, used without good help towards healing. He knew what he was doing. He has helped so many people in our church overcome their illness through the using counseling and medications. We cannot blanket over all SG pastors as a like.
Kris,
Great post. As a person personally affected by SGM’s aversion to psychology and professional counseling, I appreciate your insights as well as the insights of so many commentors. Based on the response I got from my former pastor when I inquired about a possible meeting and financial assistance for my therapy, I think they still hold their position against professional counseling. His responses:
Just words, no action. What I don’t understand is these leaders not understanding the emotions of folks who were wounded deeply and refusing to meet because emotions are raw. I say they are cowards. They have no idea what it means to truly love and minister to the hurt and broken — the ones that need a spiritual hospital and not a country club.
Mrs. Stretch, I am very sorry for the pain you have had to wade through for so many years.
The reply from your your former pastor, is that a direct quote? The reading of it feels so odd. The sentencing, punctuation and lack of capital letters comes across strange. Did you type it this way or did he? This is NOT me questioning you telling the truth, I just want to clarify if the quote is the way he wrote it before I write my observations of it.
Thanks
Singing Cook, yes those are direct quotes from his emails. I thought his style is odd as well. He didn’t write like that when were members.
When we left years ago, a truth that wonderfully exploded within us regarding how saints are progressively and enjoyably changed (instead of perpetual “sin sniffing”) was: “BUT WE ALL, WITH UNVEILED FACE BEHOLDING AS IN A MIRROR THE GLORY OF THE LORD, ARE BEING TRANSFORMED INTO THE SAME IMAGE FROM GLORY TO GLORY… (2 Cor.3:18)
We Become What We BEHOLD. AS we focus on beholding Jesus, we easily become more like Him! But, when we behold our sin or others’ sins That’s what we become More of!
My above post was meant only for our “own” sanctification process, and not at all to suggest that we be “passive” when God’s Justice is required in sinful situations that have harmed others.
sgmnot said in #20, (sorry to go back so far…)
“In SGM spreading the gospel to the non-believer is given lip-service (talked about, sung about, highlighted in testimonies and sermons) BUT…” = excellent list. Spot on observation of the actual REALITY of outreach in SGM.
I would say that a lot of sgm people do share the gospel in their personal lives to varying degrees, but I would observe that SGM DOES NOT.
SGM does not care about the lost. If the organization did, they would be leading the way in EXAMPLE, sharing the gospel with the LOST, not the SAVED in their churches.
IF SGM did care about spreading the gospel TO THE LOST, you would plainly see it all over. But you do not. Because they do not. There IS NO OUTREACH AND NO MISSIONS in SGM. Not overseas, not domestic, no ministries OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH that the members can sign up for to participate in. Not one (I am speaking from my many, many years experience in our SGM church). NOT ONE.
NOT ONE NOT ONE NOT ONE.
You see, outreach, evangelism, missions, reaching the lost, helping the needy, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for orphans, etc etc etc COSTS MONEY. There is no return. Your reward is often only in Heaven. It’s not good bidness.
Good luck with that on Judgement Day, SGM. I’d hate to be you.
This is how the reply to Mrs. stretch comes across. 1. He must be on some sort of Blackberry or portable device. 2. He is so busy or your concern is so inconsequential to him that he decided to shoot out the reply, after the busy summer months, while he was waiting in line at the grocery store. 3. The 50-50 comment comes across as “whatever, I am hurt, wife is hurt, so I am hands off on this one” 4. Oh, and btw, the other guys, not me, decided to deny your request. Good luck with your future though.
I am NOT saying that was his heart or his intent but that is how it comes across. (Mr. Former Pastor, please comment and tell me I am wrong. Please, bring correction)
Again, these guys say they are just not communicating well. But even when they do communicate they can come across so self important. Someone awhile back stated that communication is 90% nonverbal. The “non verbals” in this quote are again, odd and some downright insulting.
I am sorry this brush off reply is what you received. I will pray TONIGHT that God brings you His hope and His peace and puts you on the path to healing.
back in the day (early to mid 90s) our church had a van that took food to impoverished areas… around that same time we planted a church in an unusually poor area near our city (unusual in that it was not the norm for sgm to target poor areas)…
This was also back when we embraced the Holy Spirt – we had HS meetings mid-week, we had healing services down by the piano after church, we had (only occasionally) altar calls…. Once in a while we would pray for Baptism of the spirit over interested individuals…
Then the HS was booted from our church, never knew why, it just happened w/o anyone being informed, and the van stopped, and the church in the poor area of our city was closed… i think even prison ministry was stopped – although i am not certain on that one…
Something very very fishy happened in the mid to late ’90s…
Anyone have any insight – this was SGM-wide
Singing Cook,
regarding your comments to the seemingly flippant reply Mrs Stretch received:
As i was leaving SGM myself over a variety of concerns, i sent an email to my pastor regarding these concerns
His reply, simply, was “pray for us” – nothing else.
sounds humble, right?
I think it was the ultimate blow off and basically saying to me “if you are so concerned…. put your money where your mouth is”
No interest at all in my concerns.
20 years #67–
Are you referring to the Manna Van (as I believe it was called) and the church plant in Chester? I always wondered why the church-planting effort in Chester was terminated but never heard an explanation. Also, I always wondered why the Holy Spirit departed so abruptly. Glad to know my perceptions were not off.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – CJ really confused me when he preached against Christian counseling. Thankfully I was at least secure enough in myself, or desperate enough to pursue it when I needed it. Otherwise, I would still be in a sorry state. God has changed me so much through counseling and through reading books by the likes of Henry Cloud and John Townsend. They have helped me love the Lord more and become more of the person He made me to be.
Thanks Kris and Guy for all your insight and support.
Seeking,
yes, and yes…
Lauren #38
Thanks for finding that link. Yes indeed, CJ seems astonishingly blind to the biblical theme in both OT and NT that people are born with a soul hunger and thirst and only the Lord can fill it. Pastors must help people learn to eat and drink from the Lord, and not all the mud puddles we fall into. To present a model of the human heart that is strictly an idol factory full of sin, instead of addressing our God designed hunger and thirst, is unbiblical, and of course, one of their tools to control and intimidate.
@Mr. Nobody:
I have heard the term “submissive” mentioned so much in SGM as well as on these blogs that I really have to wonder what the criteria are for “submissive” vs. “unsubmissive”. From my observation, it seems that these things vary from person to person, what one deems “unsubmissive” may not be seen that way in another. Even within SGM there appears to be considerable variability in what behaviors of a wife are seen as being “unsubmissive”.
Mr. Nobody said: ” I’ve heard great teachings and been counseled well most of my time at this SGM church but I am gravely concerned about the “closed culture” and being under the care of those not trained in any way to deal with these issues.”
While I do believe that pastors aren’t qualified to give advice related to mental health disorders (such as advising people that they don’t needs meds and God will cure it all), I think some pastors may be very good counselors. I know of someone who says that an SG pastor did save their marriage. It really depends on the pastor and whether they really can counsel or not. Some have the gift, others don’t (kind of like teaching or any profession). While this blog has rightly addressed some of the misdoings of SG, you can’t characterize ALL SG pastors because some of them failed miserably in applying counsel. I really do not know if every SG pastor shares the CJ belief of “anything but my way is no good” idea in regards to counseling. I would look more closely at if your pastor as an individual is an open-minded person who is willing to look past only CJ’s ideas and find the best method to help you and your family.
seeking…can’t find it…some guy posted very recently about how he was in the chester plant and after Cfel moved to Glen Mills they deliberately shut it down according to him. I think the guy used his real name. Maybe someone can find it.
#79
Cov Fel needed the funds to build the new building. Chester church was a financial drain. Not doing well. Some of the more mature christians left to come back to cov fel. No choice but to close it down. Manna Van was breaking down, no money to fix it up. Several of the main folks serving on the Manna Van left the church. Cov Fel went suburban. Dave had sights on moving on up… Really only time Dave ever was friendly was when my wife and I were invited over to his house with a group to discuss sacrificial giving for the new building. “Unequal giving, equal sacrifice…” Cashed in an insurance fund… Did enjoy the testimonies of God’s provision to many of those who did give sacrificially.
@20 years in SGM #92: “Something very very fishy happened in the mid to late ’90s…Anyone have any insight – this was SGM-wide”
Yer darn tootin’ it was SGM (then PDI)-wide. It occurred in 1996, and has been discussed here a number of times. Mahaney welcomed the Spirit from summer 1994 through sometime in 1995. In December 1995, John Wimber booted the Toronto Airport Vineyard Fellowship out of the Vineyard, and that appears to have had a lot to do with PDI’s sudden course-change.
Plus, by that time the Reformed/indwelling-sin shtick was in full bloom, which meant heavy emphasis on sin-sniffing and endless recitation of Jesus’ agony on the cross (for YOUR sin, don’t ever forget!) without any attention paid to the fact and meaning of his resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. (Ironically, it was Mahaney and Larry’s emphasis on these latter parts of Jesus’ ministry that fueled the massive growth of TAG and the early CLC.)
The move of the Spirit directly threatened the leaders’ hold on church members, because God was 1) breaking through directly into people’s lives, 2) <> doing good things in their hearts without “pastors'” or others’ involvement, and 3) challenging the idolatrous worship of CJ, leadership and local-church by revealing Christ through the powerful presence of the Holy Spirit.
People who pressed-in aggressively (Matt. 11:12) were obviously going “off-reservation” : beginning to hear God for themselves, beginning to experience new giftings and levels of scriptural insight that leaders didn’t know how to deal with.
Mahaney apparently decided there was no way he could allow the joy of the Spirit, the experienced love of the Father that could destroy the urge to sin, the sudden desire to tell the unsaved about the wonders of Jesus’ salvation, the sudden concern for the poor and needy, and the sudden appearance of healing-prophetic-teaching gifts, to flourish in PDI.
The Holy Spirit was breaking through directly to equip the saints for ministry through a deep revelation of the Father’s love and Jesus’ example, but Mahaney apparently didn’t want them to be equipped for ministry apart from him. He wanted them subservient to his control, and to his own revelation: of never getting beyond day-one of one’s salvation. No baptism in the Spirit, no growing into true maturity in Christ so as to reproduce him in others. Just endless rehearsal of the sin that killed Jesus – oops, The Savior. And, a never-ending search for that out-d**ned-spot sin-sin-sin that no amount of unveiling, repenting and confessing could ever end!
“Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?”
Keep in Step, that verse (Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you tryiing to finish by means of the flesh?) has been reverberating in my spirit for days now. Is salvation the beginning and end of what Jesus has to offer us? Is the rest up to us? Must we sanctify ourselves by toiling in our own strength to put down our flesh? Do we suddenly become Deists after salvation, where our God is sitting back aloof as we make ourselves into His image? Are we working and striving hard to bring Him something of value, but the something of value He wants is us? Just us. Intimacy with God. Isn’t that what the cross (and the resurrection) were all about? My heart is full with the simplicity and wonder of it.
Speaking as someone who has been on anti-depressants for just over 2 years, I do find the SGM/anti-psychology thing really interesting.
In desperation I went to see my doctor because I really was ready to blow my brains out. I honestly believed I had been “cast out to Satan” and that everything that was going wrong in my life, was because I had “disobeyed” the SGM leaders and because of sin in my life.
My doctor kindly but firmly told me if I didn’t start on anti-depressants then I would be sectioned for my own safety – so I complied. Bear in mind I still haven’t told my SGM-going family, I’m on them!
For the first time in years, I felt a degree of sanity brought back to my life – because my doctors (no – not a counsellor or psychiatrist – just a physician) told me that there are seratonin levels in my brain that need some correcting – and it’s nothing to do with anything I did wrong.
Is it all down to sin as SGM say? I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe not.
What I DO know is that if I had carried on listening to the SGM message that it’s all sin in my life that’s due to blame – I would have arrived in heaven early (that’s if I’m going to heaven, do SGM excommunicatees go there?! ;-) ).
What worries me is that there may be others out there like me, who have wrestled with their demons in the dark of night, hearing a GOSPEL OF NO HOPE – because let’s face it, the SGM gospel doesn’t really bring any hope does it? You may be saved by grace, but you’ve got to wrestle with indwelling sin for the rest of your life and if you fail – it’s your sin that’s to blame and you should do the spiritual disciplines harder.
To 20 years at SGM..Our church flourish in the 90’s and it going fast. I was there 20 years too. I will not throw the baby out with the bath water.
I mean “its growing fast” even today. OOOPS
I have not posted here for a while, but have read. I feel so torn. Part of me wants to part ways with sgm for the rest of my life, but another part, cares for most pastors in sgm. I think i’m going to give it a year to see what happens and then leave. There are people in my sgm church that I do love.
Anyway, back to topic. Does sgm think that God will not gift one of His child to heal broken people. I have been medicated before and it has helped me. God gives us gifts. Some may be given a gift to prescribe meds to help them with psychological issues.
Also, this may have already been said, but I’ll say it again. I believe sgm doesnt want you seeing a christian counselor because they will point out how flawed sgm is.
Dan,
i, too, take anti-depressants….
I was discourage by a pastor in CovFel from doing so for years…
I am very glad (and fortunate) that i finally disagreed w/ him…
I am not a zombie, a druggie, on a high, any of that…. Just “normal” – finally “normal!!!!” no euphoria, nothing… just a well balance individual… these drugs are a God-send… for some of us…
I totally believe in this treatment… i was tortured for years by SGM guilt…. did not want to disobey my pastors or give in to the belief that my “sin” had to be treated w/ drugs….
fact is, for whatever reason, my synapsis were not firing correctly…. there are many of us in the world like this – NO BIG DEAL!!! and pastors need to freakin’ lay off!!
Hello folks, I’ve been reading for the past couple of days but haven’t had time to post. There are a couple of things that have gone through my mind that I want to share.
First – In response to the “you need the group to be sanctified” BS… We are all kings and priests after the order of Melchizedek, right? Abraham offered tithes to him, right? God saves and deals with us as individuals, not as a group. He wants fellowship with us as individuals. We each MUST learn to hear God for ourselves. You say Melchizedek was OT what about the NT? Ever heard of a guy named John the Baptist? Well, he was still before the resurrection, so he was still under the old covenant. He was literally the last OT prophet. OK… ever heard of a guy named Agabus? I wonder whose CG he was in. And how about the Ethiopian eunuch? Talk about close encounters of a third kind… Philip is preaching, God grabs him, takes him out to a desert, and he sees a guy reading the book of Isaiah. Explains it to him, leads him to the Lord, baptizes him and poof he’s gone. (Who was that masked man? Lol) What CG was the Ethiopian in? This doesn’t mean living in a hole will make you holy. We need each other but we need God more. God is the One who sanctifies and He doesn’t need our help to do it. He is perfectly capable of handling it all by Himself. All through church history there are guys and girls that God used as sometimes lone wolf Christians to shake nations and people groups. Does that mean they were not sanctified? When we are at the Bema seat for our rewards at the Marriage supper of the Lamb, it will be as an individual not as a group.
Second – There are 2 commands that the Lord gives that have been frustrating and drive us all crazy because of the seeming impossibility of doing it. They are: Be ye perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect. The second one is just like it: Be ye holy even as your heavenly Father is holy. I believe the improper application of these 2 commands is what leads to all of the stupid sin-sniffing and us trying to “help” the Holy Spirit sanctify others SGM (and other ministries) fall into.
First of all, allow me to say this… these are 2 commandments that God demands and expects of us all. And to give us a command that He knows we cannot do, AND THEN JUDGE US FOR OUR INABILITY TO KEEP IT IS UNJUST!!! And god is not unjust therefore there must be a way to do this otherwise He would not have commanded it or expected it from us. (Plus, He lives inside us. It should get easier as time goes on not harder.)
Second… The scripture says: “IF any man sin we have an advocate with the Father… “ Not when but if. Therefore we are expected to be perfect and holy before Him. So if God not only expects it but demands it there must be way to do it in His power.
Now I’m going to give you the secret of being the most free and joyful you can be in Him…
(Full disclosure… I’m stealing this example from Winkie Pratney) There are 2 different types of circuits in electronics. One is digital, the other is analog. Analog circuitry is like a dimmer switch on a light or a volume control on a radio. It changes in small increments at a time. Little by little up… little by little down… Digital circuitry is like a light switch. It is on or off. (Girls can’t get a little bit pregnant; you either are or are not.) Now then, knowledge is analog but obedience is digital. God teaches us line on line, precept on precept what He wants from each of us, INDIVIDUALLY!! None of us have perfect knowledge but we all can be perfectly obedient. There is no such thing as analog obedience! A brand new Christian doesn’t have a lot of knowledge but if he is obedient in doing what God has told him to do, right at that moment, he is just as holy and perfect before Him as the saint who has been walking with God for 60 years and is at that time doing what God is telling him to do. God holds us accountable to the light we individually have. THIS is what scripture means in Genesis 6:9 “Noah was a just man and PERFECT in his generations, and Noah walked with God.” This is NOT a sinless perfectionism this is what is called “being right in His eyes.”
The major problem with the sin-sniffing issue from what I can see is God puts His finger on an issue in your life and you project it into everyone else’s around you. But God has His finger on different areas in everyone’s life because He is trying to conform us into His image. And only He knows what areas need to be chipped away at in our lives to do that. That, my friends is freedom. I don’t go looking for sin in my life. I ask the HS what he sees, confess that and move on. And yes, there are times when He opens my eyes to something that was there for years and I didn’t see it but He does it when He is ready to deal with it in my life. It’s on His timetable, not mine or anybody else’s. I’m not forcing it. Am I perfect? Ha ha, far from it. Trust me, just ask my ex-wife. But I’m free from the fear of man and when I blow it I don’t wallow in it. And when someone “corrects me” I can ask God myself if it was from Him or just someone else trying to project their issues onto me.
God loves you, individually. He wants to fellowship with you, individually and personally. Allow Him to point out the areas He wants to deal with in your life. Trust me, He will. And yes, SOMETIMES you are so blind and disobedient He’ll send a Nathan to yank your chain to get you back on track, but those are the exceptions and not the rule. Nathan comes on the scene, delivers God’s message into David’s life and poof, gone. It wasn’t a consistant thing with Nathan in David’s face telling him his sin all the time. David, a man after God’s own Heart, Abraham, father of the faithful, Noah, walked with God, perfect in his generations, Daniel, etc… These were all men who knew God for themselves. We all falter but we can all be “perfect” – right in His eyes. That is freedom, my friends!!
We are also a family that has made use of medications for depression and other issues as well as outside Christian counseling. We have been in an sgm church for 12 years. Our cg leaders and at least one pastor knows. I have never felt guilty about this and I am very sorry for people who have had to deal with that kind of guilt laid upon them.
We live in a fallen world. People get diseases, physical and mental. Why wouldn’t we take advantage of the gift of medication when it’s taken carefully under the care of professionals? Reformed Christians believe in the doctrine of common grace. Why wouldn’t we believe that God can use secular (and Christian) psychologists and psychiatrists as well as he uses regular MDs?
Medications have preserved at least one family member’s mental health. Another type of medication has saved a life. I see very little difference between the two types of medications since mind and body are quite connected in scripture.
I am a voice in our church that encourages people to explore options. I don’t minimize sin but I do repeat, we live in a fallen world and the fall meant our minds and bodies don’t function as the would have before the fall. One day in paradise, they will once again function as they were meant to.
Dan,
Glad to hear the medication is helping. How sad that you don’t feel the freedom to share that with your SGM-family. I know plenty of people who have found tremendous relief not only on medication but also through a good and qualified counselor. SGM’s approach that everything is sin is just the product of uneducated men attempting to put out the fire, it is their own ignorance. It’s similar to them throwing the gossip and slander card out whenever someone states something unfavorable about them or reveals their horrible practices.
It’s their way of dismissing people. They live to invalidate what does not fit into their cozy perfect world.
Let’s say a child is horribly abused and is having difficultly with night terrors and frequent panic attacks, how helpful would it be to tell that child that is a result of their sin and not to pursue any counseling or medication to help this child stabilize?
This line really stood out to me: Dan said: #83
“What worries me is that there may be others out there like me, who have wrestled with their demons in the dark of night, hearing a GOSPEL OF NO HOPE – because let’s face it, the SGM gospel doesn’t really bring any hope does it? You may be saved by grace, but you’ve got to wrestle with indwelling sin for the rest of your life and if you fail – it’s your sin that’s to blame and you should do the spiritual disciplines harder.”
That is what they have gotten away with for far too long, and I for one, am glad it is being exposed. There ARE more people out there suffering as a result of this and how many people put there have been damaged by their pride and ignorance? Thank you for your comment Dan and I am glad you are being helped.
Mr.Nobody, I will be praying for you and your family. It is difficult and scary to walk away, but it seems to me from what you have written, that, while you think this is a weak time in your Spiritual walk, it is actually a much stronger time than you realize. You are acknowledging to God’s compassion for your wife, and your child, you are looking to God for your healing and your direction. Maybe, you “feel weak”, because you have not used these “spiritual legs” yet, so you feel unsteady. Like a toddler learning to walk, when their parent gets as close as they can, to still allow their baby those first precious steps, while they have their arms outstretched, encouraging their little one to keep eyes on them…that’s where it seems to me you may be at…Keep your eyes on God..you can hear from Him for your life better than others, because He speaks to you, because His relationship is with YOU!!
I will be praying, and will look forward to reading you sharing your good news here as you make your steps!
I think it is sad that so many people speak of considering leaving their church because they do not believe in the doctrine, and serious flaws, but they are feeling that to do so would cost them friendships with people they love! I have met people at times in my life, by job, neighborhood, church, whatever..when that bond happens, many remain friends forever..except in CLC..the closest friends I had there-people I considered my BEST FRIENDS, really did not speak to me after I left. There is no time for “true friendship”, it seems..it goes by what “care group” you “get assigned to”..so you are told who to be friends with as well? I haven’t been there in 20 years, I could be wrong..that is just my perception from many different posts I read..
Gracie, post #82 :amen :goodpost
Kris wrote:
“1. Appear to side with the perpetrator.”
Fairfax went above and beyond on this one with our second perp, the twice convicted sex offender, Fairfax made sure his family was cared for…the perps mom told me, “NO ONE has cared for my family more than pastor LG.” This would be the man who scheduled an appointment at the same day and time that his niece was to go to trial to face this same perp. Pastor LG then claimed he allowed his wife illness to “clouded his judgment”
This perp was guilty of horrific crimes against two girls (and that’s only the ones we know of) and Fairfax warned no one. We told one family who we knew to be at risk, that mom told another family and Fairfax accused them of gossip.
There are no changes coming out of SGM when these very pastors are still weeping and lying at the same time and Dave Harvey continues to make a mockery of these cases.
Mr Nobody, I will pray for your family. exclcer’smom is right that you feel weak right now, but keep your eyes on HIM and everything will come out all right. You have to train your spiritual muscles and that is how faith is built.
And that’s how we learn to trust the Lord-baby steps then go on from there. Line upon line, precept upon precept. Don’t be hard on yourself-you did what you thought was right at the time. You learned from your mistakes and now wish to change. Tell God…..and receive HIS GRACE. and that is what sovereign grace is–not the jumbled, garbled mess that these churches present.
Take HIS yoke upon you and you will find rest for your soul…not legalistic drivel which would make anyone crazy. It almost did that for me and that is why I left many years ago.
What many people don’t realize it that unless you deal with the past it always come back to bite you in the rear.
Mr. Nobody #62: “Because of my blindness to this I’ve treated her as the worst sinner I know and have extended no compassion to her or understanding about what she’s been through.”
WOW! This could be a major key into the SGM way of thinking toward victims. They ARE being treated as THE worst sinners in the pastors eyes, so they SERIOUSLY lack compassion on them.
Thank you for your humility and sensitivity, Mr. “Somebody”! The Holy Spirit is helping you to see these things and I know that He will help you and lead you in regard to your family and the future. I know that it is difficult to leave the only church you’ve ever known…but we went through that too and found such freedom in Christ and joy in meeting all the variety of wonderful Christians outside of SGM.
Also you asked: “Some of the tears are from the pain of the past I’ve never dealt with, but my forgiving my parents should cure that right?” Yes, and a good Christian counselor could really help with that. Facing our past, particularly areas of abuse, and working through it (that takes time), is the only way to really heal from trauma and to really forgive.
Forgiving someone is not just a bandaid on a deep wound, real healing in from the inside out (just like the body does). I will pray for you, I have been there too.
Got as far as post number 9 and it reminded me of a guy I heard speak about healing (not in any way linked to SGM as far as I know). He is definitely in favour of living by faith, and has personally seen hundreds of genuine healings (not just people getting better from the sniffles but recovering from things like diabetes, epilepsy, terrible accidents etc). But I thought he put it really well when he said that our faith should never harm others. So if you pray for someone and they are not instantly healed, don’t tell them to stop taking their medication “in faith”. If God genuinely heals a person, the time will come when they don’t NEED to take medication any more – in fact taking it will harm them. He said especially in regard to kids – if You fall down and break YOUR leg, pray and nothing happens immediately, then if you don’t want to go to the hospital you don’t have to. But a kid can’t make that decision. They naturally trust the adults in their lives, so we have to be careful that our faith doesn’t cause a problem for them.
I know this is an example from physical healing, but it struck me that the same thing applies here. Yes, have faith for someone to be redeemed from their sin, freed from alcohol abuse or porn addiction or whatever. But you don’t have to live out that faith in a place where other people, especially your kids, are going to be harmed. I 100% believe what the Bible says about divorce, and marriage vows being for life, but I think that in a situation like Taylor’s, for example, you can legitimately live separately without violating your conscience or God’s law. This is just my opinion, of course, because I’ve never been in this situation myself, but I have walked through something similar with my best friend. I see it this way – Scripture says a wife should be a helper to her husband. Doesn’t the best kind of help and love involve setting people free, and helping them to avoid sin? So for something small maybe talking about it and praying for your husband will be enough. But if chucking out the computer, getting public help a la Matthew 18, even moving out, is what it takes to protect others and help someone see the seriousness of their sin is what it takes, then isn’t that legitimate?
Liz, I don’t really get what you mean here. It sounds like you think “living separately” might have been a solution to Taylor’s horrendous situation.
I mean, as soon as Taylor’s husband realized others knew of his sin, he fled the home and didn’t respond to calls for several days. He knew “the seriousness” of his sin.
Something about your words gives me chills and I can’t express it right now.
I think that in a situation like Taylor’s, you can legitimately divorce without violating your conscience or God’s law.
It may sometimes be appropriate for people to live separately without divorcing, but I don’t think Taylor’s situation is the right example.
With respect to divorce,
I take the verse that says God hates divorce a bit differently.
Divorce is the result of two things; one spouse abandones the other or there is some sort of abuse.
I am pretty sure God hates those things.
So, it is the root cause of divorce not the actual divorce that God hates.
The discussion about SGM’s take on sin and how that affects their compassion (lack thereof) toward victims is brilliant!
There were several times when we were members of Covenant Fullofit that my husband (I usually abreviate to DH but I don’t want to confuse anyone here) and I went to our CGleaders with marital issues.
Several times, my husband said something mean that went in deep in my heart and when confronted, he repented and I was supposed to just forgive him. Note: I *wanted* to forgive him but I also needed to work out the hurt in my heart and it was then that the focus would turn to me and my evil wicked unforgiving heart.
I think this was pretty common to females, I forgave my husband and needed some compassionate person to help me work through the normal emotional baggage but I got a lot of condemnation and was likely clinically depressed troughout those years.
I think I know what you mean, DB. Sometimes my heart needs to work it through, talk it through. It doesn’t mean I’m not wanting to forgive.
In fact, being able to talk it through is part of the forgiving process sometimes. Rebuilding trust. Having it acknowledged that something did hurt me, and that I’m a person worthy of respect who can be hurt.
(I’m very distrustful of overly speedy forgiveness and of “forgetting” things as a method of dealing with them…)