Washington Post Article Declares “Things Seem Likely To Change”
September 7, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
The Washington Post article came out. I guess nobody here was willing to go on the record. Here’s the story:
Sovereign Grace Ministries, riven by conflict, seeks to change
When C.J. Mahaney took a leave of absence this summer from the helm of his 100-church denomination, saying he was guilty of “various expressions of pride,” conservative evangelicals nationwide took notice.
But inside his Gaithersburg-based Sovereign Grace Ministries movement, there was a growing sense that things had gone too far. Former church members said Mahaney had created something they thought was more like a cult.
His leave came days after a former top Sovereign Grace pastor distributed hundreds of pages of e-mails and internal church documents that portrayed Mahaney as fixated on the sins of everyone below him, particularly critics. The documents, which included discussions among the pastors, showed Mahaney and others threatening the movement’s co-founder, saying they would make private family details public if the man were too openly critical of Sovereign Grace as he left.
Mahaney, who grew up in Takoma Park, is attending the Capitol Hill church of another well-known neo-Calvinist, Mark Dever. He’s written a couple of blog posts thanking God for helping him “perceive a degree of my sin.” He declined to comment for this article.
“Although my experience of conviction has already started — and this is an evidence of God’s mercy — I’m sure there is more for me to perceive and acknowledge,” he wrote. “I am resolved to take responsibility for my sin and every way my leadership has been deficient, and this would include making any appropriate confessions, public or private. Most importantly I want to please God during this season of examination and evaluation.”
As the discussion about the direction of the ministry heated up, the daily clicks on two blogs on which former members vent shot into the tens of thousands. Usually anonymously, people told story after story of Sovereign Grace pastors being abusively controlling, shaming people who criticized clergy and dividing families when someone disagreed with a pastor. Some alleged that sexual abuse counseling had been poor, with victims being told to also scour themselves for sin.
“We as a family experienced a pattern of spiritual abuse, hypocrisy, harshness, deceit and some unfortunate threats that were not righteous for Christians and need to be repented,” said Larry Tomczak, who co-founded the ministry with Mahaney during the hippie-ish Jesus Movement of the 1970s and then bitterly split from him two decades later. “There has been something systematic in the handling of people that has deviated from biblical, pastoral norms and has had serious implications in many people’s lives. Lots of people have been waving flags. Hopefully, things are changing.”
A college dropout who was once a hard-core partier, Mahaney went on to become one of the most-recognized and popular faces of neo-Calvinism, which teaches that man is lowly, sinful and in desperate need of spiritual oversight. Mahaney, with his perma-grin, distinctively casual style (shaved head, no jackets), and successful books and conferences, put a happy, hip face on the idea of discipline.
Now facing what its interim leader, Dave Harvey, calls a “time of crisis,” Sovereign Grace has called in a Christian reconciliation firm to help decide Mahaney’s future and whether to create a new structure for dealing with conflicts.
Two other church leaders at Covenant Life, the flagship church in Gaithersburg, have stepped down. Mahaney’s protégé, Josh Harris, who is Covenant Life’s lead pastor, left the denomination’s board because of differing views on what God is trying to say through the shake-up. Although there is no evidence that the leadership upheaval has harmed attendance, pastors clearly know many congregants are asking questions. Covenant Life is holding unprecedented open-mike events. Some pastors have launched blogs.
Some conservative evangelicals worry that an inspiring movement might lose steam because of something akin to a management failure.
Experts have charted a rise of Christian energy in the past decade or so around the ideas of Calvin and Reformed Protestantism, which see a God that loathes prideful humans and predestines who will be Christian and who will be saved. Time magazine in 2009 called Calvinism one of the year’s most influential ideas, and researchers say more and more students at Christian schools seem intrigued by these theologies.
Dennis Horton, a Baylor University professor of religion who studies resurgent Calvinism, said the trend emphasizes the sovereignty of God — thus the name of Mahaney’s group — as opposed to free will and the idea that one can boost one’s chances of salvation through good deeds.
“Of all the groups, they are more susceptible to authority issues because they put so much emphasis on authority and hierarchy,” he said.
Thousands of pastors have come to Together for the Gospel leadership conferences centered on these ideas. They are run by co-founders Dever, Mahaney and Al Mohler, a Southern Baptist leader. Mohler called Sovereign Grace “one of the most vital evangelizing movements of this generation.”
What happens to Mahaney is important because American churches are increasingly unable to take firm stands on anything, he said.
“You have an America today where very strong churches will bring forth strong disagreement and strong kinds of ministry may bring on strong adverse reactions. The alternative is becoming a generic church with a generic message, and that’s not who C.J. is,” Mohler said.
Some close watchers of American evangelicalism say the Sovereign Grace controversy shows the challenge in balancing desire for strong pastoral discipline with a culture swimming in free, unaccountable chatter on social media.
The Web is playing a powerful role in Mahaney’s woes even as his movement owes much of its popularity to it. His wife and three daughters co-write a chatty, hipster-looking blog about “biblical womanhood,” and Harris is something of a rock star in conservative evangelical circles for his book about dating and the importance of traditional courtship.
What happens next is unclear. Sovereign Grace officials emphasize they are deep into a period of spiritual reflection and management nit-picking. They clarified that he remains on staff. He joined with some other Sovereign Grace pastors at a retreat this summer, and some experts say he is too popular a figure in a thriving movement to disappear over the controversy.
In an interview, leaders of Sovereign Grace acknowledged some mistakes but seemed to focus more on how the fire has been fanned by many anonymous online posters. In sermons and blog posts this summer, they have referred to biblical bans on gossip and slander. Debate broke out among members when Harris first suggested that people read the insurgent blogs and then said not to.
“Sometimes pastors in their zeal to help people, they have strongly suggested things they needed to leave it to people to figure out for themselves,” said John Loftness, a member of the church’s board.
But things seem likely to change.
“I think many people nationwide have been watching and waiting and hoping for this day to come,” Tomczak said. “We can’t cover it up. Bring it out, change where change is necessary. Confess where there have been wrongs, repent, go forward, be redemptive.”
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Coram, perhaps you missed my #35 where I refer to Mohler as a “brilliant man and engaging speaker” ?
I really think anybody with even minimal intelligence would realize that I am referring to Mahaney when I say Al does not have a clue. The WaPo article was not discussing Al’s views on Rob Bell or McLauren or baptism or theistic evolution or limited atonement, it is quoting Al on CJ. And he is clueless :D
A few people wrote and asked when did CLC ever not tell people what to think. Or when did they allow them to think for themselves.
I was brought back to sometime in the early 90’s, sitting and chatting with two pastors, and one of them asking, “What would it mean if you were to give up your belief in the therapuetic movement?” This was after several months of Christian counseling for clinical depression that basically turned my life around. I quickly replied, “I don’t WANT to give up my belief in the therapeutic movement.” Very weird question.
Coram Deo, you said, “he is still one of the brightest theologians in the country.”
Could I please ask what evidence you have for a statement like that? Test scores comparing him to other theologians perhaps? I know many theologians and I see no evidence that Al Mohler is any brighter than any of them. However, I have not studied this so there may be something I have not seen. I would appreciate it if you would please share.
Sam Magee, back in #32, you said, “I think John Loftness’s comment refers to the prior paragraph, particularly this sentence:
‘Debate broke out among members when Harris first suggested that people read the insurgent blogs and then said not to.'”
I completely agree with you that that was the intent of his statement and why Boorstein included it there. It must be read in context.
Apparently, Boorstein interviewed leaders of Sovereign Grace and found them to be mealy-mouthed about their own error (‘mistakes were made’) but rather more intent of crying “Foul!” against the blogs. She is saying that “they” (the leaders of SGM) preached sermons and wrote their own blog posts decrying gossip and slander all summer long. Then she says that “debate broke out” [Oh, no!] when Josh Harris broke the rules by publicly acknowledging the blogs [double no!] and recommend reading them [triple no!] only to suddenly retract his statement. (I wonder why. *insert rolly eyes here*) Loftness, from his lofty station as elder member of the SGM Board, Protector of the Status Quo, and Enforcer of the Code of Silence, dismisses Josh’s amateurish move as misguided youthful zeal.
Here is what I posted on Refuge about that:
I love Larry T’s comment at the end of the WP article. SGM would do well to take heed to this. The whole answer is right there.
@ Notagain, :goodpost I did not take that whole comment in context, like you pointed out..you are so right. Then, you further comments make it even better! :clap
#21— :goodpost
Kris, there you go again!
Awhile back (last week?) Kerrin made an astute observation that often policy/practice in SGM would be passed on pastor to pastor VERBALLY vs. in writing.
A crisis would arise (such as a sex abuse case) and a less-experienced pastor would inquire and get counsel/direction/”strong suggestions” from other pastors/SGM leaders on how to handle the crisis. Thus, this is why there are such striking similarities in relation to the various abuse/”de-gifting” cases. And why, coupled with the secrecy (keeping most people in the dark) in the name of gossip/slander, it has been hard to track.
Other “strong suggestions” would be disseminated throughout the church from Pastor to CGLs and their wives, also verbally, who in turn would lead their CG in the same vein. And then, we would transmit the same verbal counsel to each other, when discussing problems with other church friends. That is precisely how many of the “strong suggestions” became what EVERYONE KNEW was expected from you as a SGM member. Everything revolved around, “What does (Pastor So-and-so do/say) about (xyz)?”.
I don’t think these men started out consciously thinking, “Hey, lets all control thousands of people by setting up a religious system!”, but slowly in an arrogant desire to (I include myself here about that arrogance) wanting to be in the BEST church, as close to the NT as possible, etc., they allowed their counsel/opinions/scriptural interpretations/”strong suggestions” to become more and more important (It’s a head rush to have people “follow” your every command!) until they needed to control to keep the system they built intact.
When that came to be, only God really knows. And I’m sorry to say, I think it started many years ago!
sgmnot, perfect description! :goodpost
stunned- I know you didn’t ask me, but AM probably has a genius IQ and is adept at disecting theological constructs and analyzing doctrine.
Sometimes I think it should be required reading to learn about EQ (emotional quotient) in the smart Reformed circles, and get a grip on the importance of things like anger and selfishness and impatience and lording it over the flock, not just wrong doctrine. (Of course even the most primitive converted savage probably grasps that point, which manages to elude some of these otherwise brilliant guys).
Not Again,
Comment #54 – :goodpost :goodpost :goodpost
Wow, Mohler stuck his foot in it again, gonna need a new set of tap shoes before long… I guess I can relate to him wanting to stick up for his buddy CJ, but I have a hard time with his characterization of SGM as a “strong church”. I think there are many people in their churches who are strong, and who will weather all this commotion and come out on the other side better for it, whether in or out of an SGM church by the time it’s over. As an outside observer, though, and with the reading and listening I’ve done, I could be wrong, but what I see coming from the hardcore SGM guys and their faithful followers is not strength, but fear. Fear for their reputation, fear for their income, fear that their absolutely inexplicable handling of sexual abuse cases will be more widely exposed, fear that the neo-Reformed community will classify them as a “fringe” group rather than part of their core, fear that too many butts will cease to fill too many seats…. seems like everything but fear of God.
I also noted that Ms. Boorstein referred to SGM more than once as a “denomination”. Wonder if she knows that grinds their gizzards? :)
It is interesting to me that all of the discussion on theology, the hyper-details of management of very serious relational problem-management, blogs, the caveats of leadership issues, etc. etc. would have a hard time flying in anywhere but the U.S. – maybe the UK. The Gospel reaches people in the U.S, Zimbabwe, India, Ecuador, or Jordan – does that make anyone else uncomfortable? I may be guilty of over-simplifying, but when a “Biblical” message applies to only one country or region I have a hard time seeing it as Biblical Truth. Not only that, (again – just from my perspective) even in the U.S. the SGM messages might not be considered at all in rural Oklahoma or Alaska. It makes me sad that 20 years ago the message of PDI was about proclaming the good news of Jesus’ death and resurrection, and His ability to change lives for real! Now most of what I hear has way more to do with details of complex theology, leadership, crisis-management. Wow.
If Al Mohler’s so smart why didn’t he do his homework when it came to CJ and SGM?
Here is what I posted as a comment on the Washington Post site where the article was:
As a current member of Covenant Life Church, I appreciate this article. I would love to see more articles about this topic, as the blogs that were mentioned (www.sgmsurvivors.com) have stories of numerous families who were hurt by their pastors.
Pastors who discouraged reporting child sexual abuse to the police.
Pastors who told victims’ families to to write letters to judges to request lenniancy for the sexual abuser.
Pastors who don’t stop a known child sexual abuser in its church from working with kids.
Pastors who don’t require a known child sexual abuser to inform parents of kids that he has in his home of his criminal record.
Pastors who teach vicitims of their own personal sin and demand that victims (ages 3, 10, etc) must forgive their abuser
Pastors who tell wives that they must fogive their husband who sexually abuses their daughter.
I look forward to more articles about this church. This article is a good strart!
@Piekna Kobieta, great comment! I hope you will see more also!
@Fried Fish..Grind their Gizzards! HaHaHaHa! :Overjoy: I am going to bed with a good “belly laugh” over that one! I love it! Thanks!
5 Years, I am in complete agreement with you on the EQ thing! Much more important in a minister than IQ, to me. He may be a genius, but that in no way puts him intellectually above many other theologians. (Not that you said that, at all.) I just don’t get people thinking he is smarter than others with no evidence actually stating that. I give you (plural you, not addressing you, 5) that he has a better PR person than any other theologian, but if that makes one smarter, then the Kardashians and Paris Hilton are smarter than Einstein. And that, I highly doubt.
Sonrisa, I’m right there with you. Forget, “Does it play in Peoria”. I want to know if it plays in Mozambique, too. If not, don’t peddle it to me here in the states and call it God. If His truths don’t work everywhere, then it’s not His truth.
I thought it was kinda disgusting that Larry Tomczak speaks in the article as if the problem was someone else instead of his own creation where he himself abused so many others.
Stunned #53: Your statement to Coram Deo doesnt make sense :“he is still one of the brightest theologians in the country.”
Could I please ask what evidence you have for a statement like that? Test scores comparing him to other theologians perhaps? I know many theologians and I see no evidence that Al Mohler is any brighter than any of them. However, I have not studied this so there may be something I have not seen. I would appreciate it if you would please share” Well, it you haven’t studied the issue, how can you say that you see no evidence that Al Mohler is any brighter. Three thoughts. First, Al Mohler is not a theologian in the truest sense of the word. He is an educated Seminary President, who moves in a lot of academic cirlcles…but this doesn’t make a theologian. He doesn’t have a body of published work in systematic or biblical theology. He’s no John Frame. Second regarding Coram Deos thoughts on Mohler’s intelligence. Clearly asking for test scores or scientific proof that Mohler is a bright cookie isn’t necessary. We can go on anecdoatal evidence to get close to the mark. Within both reformed and conservative evangelical circles, Mohler has a reputation for having a razor sharp mind, incredible recall from being a prodigious reader and thoughtful-logical commentary in his blogs, books and sermons. He is a terrible preacher though – any time I’ve heard him I found it hard to follow since he really is an academic communicator. Finally, Mohler’s early pronouncement of CJ’s innocence was ridiculous. I am very disappointed in him for this and will be watching him more suspiciously now…but that doesn’t mean I wont correct this comment #53 for clearly letting emotion lead to unjustified conclusions on Al Mohler in general.
Piekna Kobieta #66: Clear and to the point! :goodpost
@Fried Fish #63:
See, that’s just the thing, I don’t think it does. Admittedly, at one time it may have, and I’m sure they would still not use that terminology themselves (similar to the Acts 29 “network”), but I think the response to being called a denomination would be a resounding “Meh.” If they even notice it in the article at all. Posts like these probably happen because so many people here have been out of SGM for so long, but to me (who just left) they just look silly. It’s not really relevant to anyone currently involved in SGM. I feel similarly when I see Kris’ “
denominationfamily of churches” thing. (I mean, seriously, typing that just now doubled the number of keystrokes. Who wants to type all that just to beat a dead horse?) :beat@Coram Deo
“[Mohler] is still one of the brightest theologians in the country.”
No idea of his IQ relative to other theologians, and I doubt you do either, but his defense of this movement, SGM, and CJ demonstrates to us all without a doubt that he is currently spiritually bankrupt.
Knowing the rules (theology) and acting on them are two different things, and it’s the acting on them that shows us his true viewpoint. He’s shown quite a bit the past few months.
Or do you feel that someone who supports abuse, lying, manipulation, faulty doctrine regarding pastoral authority, and a leader/organization that cherishes privacy and protection of the child molestor over the child can really do all that and have a pure heart?
I do not. Open your eyes- you are incriminating yourself by association and you don’t even know it.
Specifically, please respond to the question of how a great theologian can support an organization that protects child molestors over the children themselves?
“If Al Mohler’s so smart why didn’t he do his homework when it came to CJ and SGM?”
I’m sure he did. I’m sure he also did the accounting before making his calculated decision to support SGM.
Maybe he’s pretty smart after all…
The only thing I ever read by Al Mohler (shows I’m not very well-read, perhaps) was a review of a piece on “Wimps and Barbarians” about the need to raise boys to be real men. When he got to the part where he defined wimps as those who think their girlfriends are people with whom they can have conversations, I was done. I know. I’m overly critical.
facedown said –
Because it’s funny to me. :D And because, while you and other members may feel “meh” about the terminology, your leaders don’t. Words mean things. If it didn’t matter so very much to the guys at the top of SGM, they wouldn’t bother with “family of churches” versus “denomination.” (I mean – according to your logic, they’ve just increased their keystrokes, so who wants to bother with that? :wink: )
I actually think the “family of churches” thing is pretty significant, another way in which the SGM organization tries to set itself apart from the rest of “ordinary” Christianity. And, because words mean things, what is actually meant by “family of churches”? You have to admit that it’s very vague terminology that gives no real clue as to what SGM-the-organization actually does. SGM’s purpose or mission statement is something along these lines:
But the organization does way more than that. SGM in Gaithersburg has way more power over the local congregations than do the members of those congregations! Otherwise, when the various de-giftings took place, they would not have come as a shock to many of the members of the affected churches. That’s WAY more than “facilitating partnerships among pastors.”
Calling a tightly controlling, governing entity a “family of churches,” with implications of mere loose organization and support, is deceptive. Since SGM leaders have always been very “intentional” about everything they do, I can only conclude that this vagueness is deliberate…deliberately deceptive.
Words matter. And SGM members should care about this stuff. There shouldn’t be any “meh” when it comes to things that are deliberately portrayed completely differently than they really are.
Members of CLC,
Please consider reading the book by Jonathan Leeman, “The Church and the Surprising Offense of God’s Love: Reintroducing the Doctrines of Church Membership and Discipline”. It is one of the most outstanding books I have read on the topics noted in the title, and for those of you who are taking your membership responsibilities seriously, it will help navigate the waters you are currently in. I would especially encourage those who make up the 20-30 church panel to read it. Many of us continue to pray for you. You are up to bat! Do your best!
Your brother in Christ, Mole
I think we can agree that the general consensus among conservative Bible-believing Christians of the Reformed persuasion is that Al Mohler is a smart man. He’s smart about theology, and he’s clearly smart about making himself a dominant voice. He’s now the go-to intellectual for the Southern Baptist Convention, a group that historically hasn’t had much use for Calvinism. I don’t think that could have happened if Mohler weren’t a very smart, very clever man.
It seems to me that what we’re debating here isn’t necessarily whether or not Al Mohler is smart. What we’re debating is whether or not the intelligence displayed in his thinking and writing abilities (as well as his cunning) necessarily translate over to his ability to know and understand the inner workings of an organization like Sovereign Grace Ministries…and to his ability to know and read people like CJ Mahaney well enough to make such confident pronouncements about their character and their fitness to lead.
Is Al Mohler so smart that he can assess CJ Mahaney better than someone like Brent Detwiler, even though Brent interacted personally with CJ and worked side by side with him for decades, while Mohler has only occasionally hobnobbed with CJ at tightly organized public events and some CBMW board meetings?
I, for one, don’t think so. I don’t think Mohler’s smartness in a couple of areas like theology and political maneuvering somehow give him greater wisdom and greater knowledge of people to the point where he has a better understanding of CJ than does someone like Brent Detwiler.
I don’t think Mohler’s smartness means that he has a better handle on what’s going on in local SGM churches than the people who attend those churches. Mohler may be a more brilliant theologian than 99% of SGM members, but I would put more stock in the feedback of the least intelligent SGM member who has actually lived SGM than what Mr. Mohler might have to say from his lofty perch in his seminary president’s office.
All you SGMers out there reading this – you need to start trusting what your own eyes and your own ears are telling you. Trust what you yourself have seen and felt over the years, rather than what your leaders and these smart outsiders may try to tell you about what you’ve seen and felt. You were there. You know. In fact, you know better than even a brilliant theologian/denominational politician like Al Mohler.
Kris: “All you SGMers out there reading this – you need to start trusting what your own eyes and your own ears are telling you. Trust what you yourself have seen and felt over the years, rather than what your leaders and these smart outsiders may try to tell you about what you’ve seen and felt.”
This is exactly what I wish I had done 25 years ago! :clap
Kris said, “SGM in Gaithersburg has way more power over the local congregations than do the members of those congregations!”
YES! Who do you think installed Mullery in Fairfax? It wasn’t the congregation! And who decided that Emerson will stay as Senior Pastor in Richmond? It isn’t the congregation!
If this is “Family”, it’s a Mob Family. Personally, I no longer require their “protection”.
stunned- yeah, re LT, he wrote “Commitment to a Local Expression of the Body of Christ,” which was used back in the shepherding/hyper authority churches. To see Tomczak portrayed as a spokesperson for the anti-authoritarian viewpoint is, um, well, let me just ask, did he clearly publically repent of all that the way Mumford did?
Ditto, Kris!! (#79) :goodpost
very very minor point of order concerning post #44…..
Muslims were not around at or before the time of Moses. Mohammaed wasn’t even born until 570 AD, so Islam is definitely post-Moses, lol. Maybe you meant Arabs?
5years, I completely agree about EQ – it’s a very important point. It can be hard to raise issues with those who are supposed to help us most (ie our Christian brothers and sisters) when one fears that all one will get is a theological response. It’s not that the theology is necessarily wrong, and we do need to understand Scripture rightly, but the application is (IMHO!) always much harder and messier than just writing a paper explaining justification or preaching on the Ten Commandments or whatever. I do find it insane in my “family of churches” (lol. okay, it’s a mainline denomination) that people are expected to go through a graduate degree including study of Hebrew and Greek in order to ‘qualify’ as church leaders. It’s not that the church doesn’t ever need linguists or academics, but why should a guy who is a mechanic, a completely non-academic, hands-on kind of person but with good pastoral skills, be forced to struggle through a masters degree and be made to feel like he has to plagiarise sermons because his aren’t high-brow enough.
Grrr. K rant over.
Kris, two very excellent posts! :goodpost :goodpost
What you were saying about Mohler vs Detwiler,;it reminds me of a bit like my relationship with a pediatrician..The doctor is obviously smart, educated, as well as certified through years of training, and I, of course, go to him for direction, help, or advice..but, no matter what, I still know my child best! My long term, day to day involvement with my child gives me an insight no doctor can not have..a wise doctor listens to a Mother, and it is a reciprocal relationship.I think Mohler would have been wise to consider BD before he wants to so publicly state praise ..some people may end up with egg on their face…
concerned for the kids,
It’s now quite obvious that both CJ and Al were pretty smart.
Al got money and CJ got a supporter with some clout.
:Wink:
Kris said “All you SGMers out there reading this – you need to start trusting what your own eyes and your own ears are telling you. Trust what you yourself have seen and felt over the years, rather than what your leaders and these smart outsiders may try to tell you about what you’ve seen and felt. You were there. You know”
WOW 8O That kinda sums up the whole SGM experiance :goodpost
and yes I am now useing my most recognisable name instead of Dr.StupidHead :wink:
Roadwork,
Comment #81 – Exactly, we were there for that. CJ hand-picked Mullery. Could explain how that Sr pastor, who just weeks earlier referred to the blog world as “those voices on the internet” and then three weeks later was tearing up with remorse for how he treated those voices, CONTINUES to shun the very members of the family he was weeping over, just this past weekend as a matter of fact. Must be all that Godly sorrow…..
exclcer’s mom said in #85..”a wise doctor listens to a mother”…
Oh wow, that brought back some memories, it sure is funny how quickly the ‘brightness’ of a doctor diminishes in the eyes of experience.
Liz #84 regarding #44 – No I did not say moslems or arabs, I said scientific societies – If you read my post it said “Assuming the books by Moses to be correct that the first parts were written during the time of the pharaohs, we know that there were scientific societies that predated his writings.” …. specifically referring to “the pharoahs”, who were masters of architecture, decimal system, mathmatics, and fractions, as well as their roots of the scientific method (traced back to the ancient egyptians). I never implied that “Islam was around during the time of Moses”. Sorry if that wasnt clear enough.
My reference to the contributions of scholars in islamic countries was just to point out that indeed achievements in algebra and mathmatics were still being made there (like someone else had pointed out in an earlier post), while much of europe was suffering through the dark ages where scientific and academic progress had been all but halted through religious persecution.
I totally agree with your observation about the need for EQ. While IQ is still important, it is not nearly as effective or relevant without EQ when it comes to dealing with people.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that SGM is not in a position of leadership, or that the core of SGM leaders are somehow dumb and unintelligent – but moreso that their leadership style has changed from what used to be a somewhat democratic or participatory style, and is now a full blown autocratic, narcissistic, toxic style to the real detriment of many people who followed but didn’t recognize the change in style since it was gradual and done without informing the group.(see definitions below)
Autocratic Leadership: all decision-making powers are centralized in the leader or small group of leaders who do not seriously entertain any suggestions or initiatives from subordinates. Only one person decides for the whole group and keeps each decision to him/herself until he/she feels it needs to be shared with the subordinates of the group.
Toxic leadership: A toxic leader is someone who has responsibility over a group of people or an organization, and who abuses the leader-follower relationship by leaving the group or organization in a worse-off condition than when he/she first found them. (very relevant to SGM IMO)
Narcissism leadership: characterized by a lack of empathy, a willingness to exploit others, and an inflated sense of self-importance, but promoted under the idea that being upheld is for the overall good of the group he/she leads. It can be brought on by wealth, fame and adoration, and is triggered and supported by an adoring group all playing into the idea that the leader really is vastly more important or better than other people. (has CJ written all over it)
Tomcov, I think you missed my point. Going around saying anyone is one of the smartest anythings (plumbers, theologians, teachers, engineers, etc) is not logical unless we know the comparisons to all the other (fill in the blanks).
My concern when I hear people make comments like that is that they are accepting something without really knowing the facts.
Like the way you did when you thought my concern had anything to do with emotion. I don’t care if Mohler is a huge fan of CJs or thinks he is the devil himself. Doesn’t matter. What concerns me is our acceptance of categorizing people in comparison to others without having any evidence to support that acceptance.
I also see it as a danger when we are talking about intelligence as people will sometimes give more weight to what an “intelligent” person may say over what we believe an average intelligence person may say. (Again, that is a concern especially if there is no true evidence of superior intelligence.)
I still see no evidence you have proferred as having compared him as one of the smartest, either.
Rose…I googled it. The quote is actually from a book he is reviewing.
http://www.albertmohler.com/2005/07/05/barbarians-and-wimps-americas-boy-problem/
“Barbarians show women no respect, and are completely lacking in the manly virtues of protection and respect for the well being of women. Wimps, on the other hand, look to women for emotional support, consider girlfriends to be conversation partners, and look to women for pity. They are shameless.”
Does Al have a problem with this? Apparently not:
“Moore’s essay is a refreshing change of pace from the pablum routinely handed out to parents by the cultural elite, the educators, and the so-called “experts.”
Ugh. My support matters so much to my husband- he has told me a thousand times how much I mean to him. Of course my pity when he is truly suffering means a lot to him. What would Al want, a cold impassive wife who could care less to help alleviate his pain whether physical or emotional? Don’t we want that from our men too?
We talk all the time and he has told me often how lonely he would be without me. I thought God saw that it wasn’t good for Adam to be lonely and made him a wife. I guess it was just for romping in bed and no conversations?
I am starting to feel literally nauseated anymore when I read this crap from the big names in the Gospel Coalition, and I’m Reformed and complementarian. My husband said last night that this is exposing a lot more than CJ and SGM….quite a few others being brought to the light as well, for those with eyes to see.
Double ugh.
Stunned,
I think I get your point, and I agree with you. It’s interesting to me how people will become so impressed with a celebrity’s ability in one area and assume that it carries over into all of life. Mohler is clearly smart in certain departments. But I think his premature yet doggedly persistent endorsements of CJ and SGM will eventually prove to be an area where he’s going to end up looking unwise.
I mean – I know Mohler is wrong in his assessments about CJ and SGM, at least on a moral level. Maybe he’ll get lucky and his endorsements will work out for him on a business level. Time will tell. But I could not be more certain that he’s made a really bad judgment call in leaping to SGM’s and CJ’s defense as he’s presently doing.
The funny thing is, my saying so will undoubtedly raise a bunch of Mohler-ites’ hackles. I’m not sure why it is that people are so eager to ascribe across-the-board infallible wisdom to celebrity theologians or church leaders, but they do.
Those of you who are so aghast that we’re daring to suggest Mohler may not be as smart as we are about SGM/CJ – why do you think thus? Really? Why?
I’d be so happy if you’d oblige me and explain why you’re so defensive of Mohler and so sure that he is right and that we are wrong. Why do you feel that way? Why are you so convinced that because he is a “brilliant theologian,” he has to know more about a man and a church organization with whom he’s had essentially surface business connections?
I would LOVE to know the answer to this question.
Hi ExClcer,
sorry, I must have misunderstood – it was this sentence that confused me:
“Assuming the books by Moses to be correct that the first parts were written during the time of the pharaohs, we know that there were scientific societies that predated his writings. Pythagoras, Aristotle, Plato, Sophocles, the Egyptians, native americans, aformentioned Muslims….I guess they had no scientific input?”
I thought you were listing scientific societies that predated the writings of Moses. Must have got confused! Anyway, certainly Islam has contributed to the development of scientific understanding. And I got to visit Egypt a few years ago, and found it absolutely fascinating to see hieroglyphics which were essentially a medical log of that temple. Including a very graphic section of women using birthing chairs!
The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.
In a similar light, Larry T. seems to have been given a pass for some strange reason (perhaps because he and CJ were at odds.
But LT was part of the original problem.
Support for my statement:
The book entitled, “God, the Rod, and Your Child’s Bod.”
It is one of the most vile legalistic books that states that the Bible mandates spanking. He couches inflicting pain upon a child in cutsey language like “Protoplasmic stimulation.”
He was also clearly patriarchal in his attitude toward women.
These people need to retire and give someone else a chance to ruin as few lives as possible.
I’m not in an SGM church; I was thinking more of people I know here in the UK who are just forced to fit into a certain mold in order to be considered fit for service. I’m in an Anglican (Episcopal) church (although I don’t really consider myself ‘Anglican’ as such; more that I’m a Christian who happens to attend an Anglican church), and I have been reading this debate with great interest and no small amount of trepidation because I can see so many parallels with my church structure.
I have to say that I personally have not been on the receiving end of anything like what people here have shared, but I keep being struck by the similarities in the hierarchy/ organisational structure. The specifics are different but there is the same general attitude towards the ‘laity'(congregation), which is that we are stupid sheep who can’t think for ourselves; we need help from an ordained or licensed person to pray, worship, understand the Bible (and we just ignore the Holy Spirit completely). The end result is that people stop thinking for themselves and start blindly following, and then it’s only a matter of time before you end up where SGM are now.
So thanks, everyone, for sharing your stories and thoughts.
Liz
Just read post #90 again and realised that weirdly enough, it is possible to be a nice, friendly guy and also be an autocratic leader.
That statement perfectly describes our church. And it’s actually not because our minister is a particularly dictatorial character, but rather because that is what his training and boss and church institution has told him is right.
Ack. :(
DB,
I tend to wonder the same thing (why LT is viewed with almost universal nostalgia and sympathy). I mean, I think it’s clear that LT was ultimately victimized by CJ in the same way that PDI/SGM has victimized many many others, and I suppose it’s natural that those who got their own version of a “shanking” would share Larry’s pain.
I also understand that Larry held a lot of appeal for a lot of people as a Charismatic leader who provided the yin to CJ’s yang.
BUT, after reading Larry’s book Clap Your Hands, it was very clear to me that Larry himself played a huge role in creating and sustaining the system that ultimately chewed him up and spit him out.
I posted the following as a comment on an old thread, but I think it’s interesting to keep in mind whenever Larry T is romanticized:
About Al Mohler’s review (the wimps and barbarians thing)….
I don’t think he *is* saying men should be barbarians who don’t hold conversations with their wives. Right at the end of the review he writes:
“We should rightly fear a future in which young men grow into physical maturity only to show themselves as either barbarians or wimps.”
In other words, he thinks there should be another option – that boys are raised to be godly men. Of course, people may differ in their definition of what that is…..
DB – great post! Larry seems to get a pass for the same reason Brent and Josh The Boy Wonder have been given passes – people seem to think that they will help change sgm. In reality, Brent just wants to discipline CJ in the SGM way – which a lot of people would love to see him treated the same way he has when he “failed in his care” for so many, many people. As for Josh ‘TNG’ Harris, he spoke a few truths but never acted on them so that gave him a free pass.
I 100% agree with you on “God, The Rod, and your Child’s Bod” which should have a subtitle – “How to beat your kids and hide it from social services”