C.J. Mahaney Preaches At Capitol Hill Baptist Church During “Season Of Reflection,” Refers To Mark Dever As “His Pastor”
September 25, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
On Sunday, September 25, C.J. Mahaney was a guest preacher at Capitol Hill Baptist Church. You can listen to his sermon (a variation on what he presented while doing the “Jude Tour” at different Sovereign Grace Ministries churches) here.
A couple of minutes into his message, C.J. makes mention of a Tabletalk article by an author named Scot Dever – who, C.J. tells the Capitol Hill congregation, is “no relation to our pastor.”
I don’t know about you, but I’m confused. I thought that C.J. Mahaney, as president of Sovereign Grace Ministries (from which he is still receiving his entire salary even in the middle of his “season of reflection”) is a member of Covenant Life Church. I thought Joshua Harris was C.J.’s pastor.
How is it possible that Mark Dever is now C.J.’s pastor?
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
I think that CJ is done with sgm and will just be part of CHBC. I mean his son in laws quit so they had to know something was coming.
Mike Pila said:
“What I don’t think CJ is getting is that the Lord is discipling him. I get the impression that CJ still does not know the full extent of his sinfullness and he truly is BLIND to it all.
I earlier said how could CJ preach with all of those issues hanging over his head (Josh, CLC, SGM, Brent, etc.)? It’s confusing to me. Why not be very very humble, stop defending yourself and listen to the people arond you that really do love you. Especially when they are bringing sin issues to you. ”
I am sure one of the problems Mahaney has is that for a number of years he has been SGM’s “pope” and was unassailable or in other words not questioned. From what I can tell, Mahaney is not use to receiving any type of reproof etc. This is a hard pattern for someone to break especially with the ego that I am sure has developed over the years.
It appears the only person in SGM Leadership that had the backbone to confront Mahaney and persevere was Brent Detwiler and we know what happened to Brent Detwiler.
I was someone encouraged by what Larry Tomczak said about Mahaney a few months ago in a message at Immanuel’s Church where Tomczak indicated that Mahaney was open and trying to see his sin. Sadly it doesn’t look like this is the case now with Mahaney.
Why someone like Dever would enable Mahaney to continue in this deception by letting Mahaney preach when Mahaney still hasn’t seen and acknowledged a lot of his sin is beyond me. Doesn’t the leadership CHB realize the disservice they are doing to Mahaney?
As a SGM member, I am hurt, confused and feel defrauded by CJ. It is so hypocritical. All those years of teaching about commitment to the local church and submitting to your leadership, etc. were thrown out the window when it applied to him, I guess. In MikePhila’s last post on the previous blog, he said he must be blind to his sin. Perhaps, but there must also be a belief that all those messages about relationships in the local church, commitment, and humility don’t really apply to him. How can he justify his behavior??? I, too, implore you, CJ, to repent and humble yourself. There is grace for you!
By my estimation, C.J. won’t “just be part” of anything.
He never has. Never. He hitches his wagon to bright stars and rides along until he can be seen as an equal and, eventually, by hook or crook, as the leader.
From his first days as a Christian, that has been his modus operandi. He’s never done anything else. (Remember the report from the UK last thread or so? C.J. went from being Larry’s sidekick to Larry’s ‘superior’ to last man standing. (“Larry who?”)
If he’s there for good, I await an announcement of a staff position or a newly-created position, maybe President of T4G or something.
But I still don’t see him as one to leave SGM quietly without making more of a fuss. Someone’s head will roll.
The only way I can see that NOT happening is if he needs to make nice to be in the good graces of the RBDs whose approbation he so craves.
Eventually, he will come to see this in his own mind as the only way God could remove him from the SGM he was so devoted to, because God is telling him he has outgrown SGM and needs to move on to a larger arena of service.
Betcha.
Dever allowing CJ to share his pulpit is only enabling his narcissistic and unrepentant spirit. I sure hope the people at CHBC and CLC speak with their pocketbooks and voice their opinions loudly. CJ obviously has no intention of having a season of introspection – it’s all about his reputation.
This makes me so mad.
that’s all I have to say about that.
:bang
IDK – he called him OUR pastor. We should not jump to conclusions over this statement. If he said MY pastor I would get it but if you are a guest preaching at a church you would refer to hosting pastor as YOUR pastor but also OUR pastor here…
Also CJ may have provide us with a slip of the tongue, a so-called “freudian slip” where there is nothing official. We may be seeing “a desire?” “a discussion” “a decision”.
However it makes for good speculation.
but what is clear… Dever gave CJ the pulpit and that’s very very telling. if I were in SGM I’d be pretty ticked too!
Meanwhile, back at the farm…..
Today at CLC, Josh got up front, wept down on his knees…not exactly sure about what. It surely wasn’t for those hurt in mishandling of sex abuse cases, and it wasn’t even for Lofthouse and Riccuci (a la the last members meeting in August).
The service today was a big swing of the pendulum, much more charismatic than anything I’ve seen at CLC in some time. But why get up in front of the whole congregation to simply cry and kneel? Why didn’t he just do that from his seat?
Perhaps CJ and Josh have gone to the same school of theatrics……..
CJ preaching at CHBC is enough for me. No repentance, no season of reflection. A fraud, through and through. He can spin and spin, but his actions speak volumes. I pray that Mark Dever will see and I pray for the unsuspecting members at CHBC. Help us, Lord. This is not what you desire from church leaders. Utter charlatan. For years, I thought CJ was just arrogant and the product of a lack of accountability. Now I see him as a complete liar and hypocrite and I just feel sorry for the many who have been caught in his narcissistic web. Shepherd who feed themselves….
Yellow-
Assuming you are a member of CLC, and you have no idea what was going on with Josh today, by all means ask him what the display was all about. My guess is that you aren’t the only one wondering. Even if you aren’t a member ask. You were left wondering about a leader’s actions at a service.
I really think God is exposing more than just SGM right now. There is a whole group of guys with national and even international influence over the next generation, and maybe the Lord is getting at a lot more than just CJ. Dever’s comments- to the effect that the accusations are all false- are a slap at Josh Harris, as is his seeming support of CJ, when CJ is going against the counsel of his CLC pastors who wanted him to stay.
Driscoll has supposedly been under oversight by Piper and Mahaney…..its all so wierd. Piper has been silent about SGM which I’ve taken as a hopefully good sign, but you wonder. Maybe a hint of concern about even the authoritarian polity issues would be nice?
Challies is Mr Blogger for the young Reformed, and championing CJ. Ligon Duncan is a great teacher and influential in the PCA, no public change from pro-CJ. Ortland…not sure how wide his audience is, no change. Silence on SGM far as I know from DeYoung, honest uncertainty from Justin Taylor. Nothing from Keller? Randy Alcorn silent, I think.
By the time this is over, hopefully we’ll see who the good guys are. Right now I have to hope some of them are just duped- Trueman, Duncan, etc- and will see the truth eventually. I have to admit I can’t recommend Dever and Mohler to anybody, no matter how well they might teach on some subject. God is exposing. Praise Him for His perfect ways.
Maybe we’ll actually get back to God, and Jesus and the bible….instead of all the celebrities. Maybe instead of sinking 300+ bucks into tickets and the same for a hotel and the same for food and gas and tolls, we’ll spend 1,000 in a better way.
I would be easy for some of us to say ” I told you so nanny nanny boo boo ” BUT right now its important to support in prayer and with fellowship the sheep that have been saved from a wolf.
Forget calling Dever “Our Pastor”, he’s actually called “the Savior” Jesus. 3 times in 10 minutes! =:o
And hardly a pause whatsoever…actually he’s kind of talking fast.
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…and I don’t think he’s mentioned sports whatsoever…yet… (I’m at 15:47)
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:::::::::THUD::::::::
“Satan…is…real. And he is really serious about attacking our faith.”
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Near the end (19:00 – 20:00), he’s speaking in a different kind of cadence that I can’t remember him using before, almost like a regular … I don’t know…”reverend”?
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Sometime around 22:00, he says he’s part of “this congregation”.
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“We are called to have mercy on those who doubt.” …. really? I thought we were in sin when we doubted?
(at 39:00, he does say that it is sin, but we are to have mercy on those that doubt, and we are not to condemn them, and if you struggle with doubt you are not to condemn yourself)
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“We can have mercy on those who doubt, because God had mercy on us”…he’s almost sobbing here. :/
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Oh, he’s starting to do the pauses & whispering here now… (29:00)
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He mentions he’s been a pastor for 38 years now. (about 39:00)
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Don’t think he has mentioned “Jesus” since the first 10 minutes. (55:00)
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In a sermon on doubt, I don’t think he’s mentioned prayer once…?
In my opinion, what happened at CLC this morning was powerful. Josh reminded us to have hope for the future even when there is so much brokenness around us. I believe God fell on CLC this morning and shocked everyone. Everyone was crying and worshiping, and they had to extend worship to let the Spirit move, cutting the sermon short. People prayed and spoke in tongues, and many prophecies were shared. I haven’t seen this in CLC in a long long time… and I really don’t believe it was an act. I don’t think we can say Josh crying on the stage is some sort of unnecessary or staged show of emotion. I think as senior pastor, it’s completely appropriate for him to be open to us with his emotions. It puts us all on the same playing field.
I hadn’t been to CLC in awhile, and still plan on looking for other churches… but God was definitely at CLC this morning.
Katie and Bridget,
I don’t understand why Josh didn’t just cry and kneel in the front row where he was sitting. For him to go up on stage for everyone to see this seemed a bit attention seeking…..
I don’t feel the need to ask Josh about it. I don’t want anything on my ‘record’ about my questions…
Honestly, the whole Josh sinned against CJ thing makes the perfect “CJ style/blameless” explanation of why he is no longer at CLC. CJ sure can switch from perp to victim faster than any gunslinger in the old west.
:cowboyup
Somehow there still seems to be a lot of scripting in the mix, or at least the smell of pre-meditation. For all we know, CJ may have been the one to initially suggest to Josh the transparent candor that now has Mr. Harris in the hot seat. :barf:
I really wish, CJ would leave CLC forever. It looks like he should be leaving SGM as well. CJ will never allow real change in either organization. He is gone off in error. He thinks he is so above everyone else. He is no leader and the spiritual pride that he has before him, does not let him see reality. Wherever CJ is it will be detrimental for the Holy Spirit to move, so the best place for him is probably at CHBC, at least he is under someone.
I agree that God was at CLC yesterday in a tangible way and His :word to us was this: “I am God and there is NO OTHER!”
“Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty
Who was, and is, and is to come”
Praise Jesus for his power and His love..that He would love and comfort us in a real way in such a difficult season.
Steve240 you said:
“Why someone like Dever would enable Mahaney to continue in this deception by letting Mahaney preach when Mahaney still hasn’t seen and acknowledged a lot of his sin is beyond me. Doesn’t the leadership CHB realize the disservice they are doing to Mahaney?
My exact thoughts. I think Dever needs to step back and see what he is doing. What he is doing with CJ is almost as disturbing as what CJ is doing with CJ. Imagine another SGM pastor under such scrutiny for unrepentant sins, with so much incriminating evidence, with so many hurt people crying out, going to another church rather than following the disciplinary code; shirking the “season of reflection” and jumping right back into the pulpit as easily and smoothly as though he were changing lanes on an empty freeway? SGM would be screaming for justice; reprimanding the refugee church; and eviscerating the lack of humility. This is astounding to me that CJ could do this and there is no SGM outcry. On the contrary, it seems as though SGM is bent on apologizing to him!
Two salient points that need to be re-emphasized. If CJ was ever a pastor he is not one now and has not been one for a long, long time. He has never had a pastor; because he has never been a sheep.
There is a well-known argument about the identity of Jesus that I am going to paraphrase here in a slightly altered form.
CJ says he is a pastor. Four possibilities.
1. CJ has been misquoted hundreds of times and never claimed to be a pastor OR
2. CJ is a liar OR
3. CJ is a fool and/or is mentally ill OR
4. CJ is a pastor.
Yes, I’m angry.
And this is being allowed while CJ is still receiving his SGM salary. THAT is financial impropriety.
While this is disturbing behavior from the President of SGM to have bailed on his church and continue to receive a salary from them, (UNbelievable) this really is becoming a pattern within some leadership in SGM. Gene Emerson gets away with his baloney, how many folks have been Shanked? M. Mullery, V, Hinders, L.Gallo are pastors over a SGM church were major sex abuse cases with children have been horribly mishandled, adding to the pain and suffering of the child victims and their families (many who can’t enter a church or hear the word Sovereign without having a negative reaction, good work shepherds.) and members still support THESE guys. Abusive, deceptive…..and well paid. Welcome to Sovereign Disgrace Ministries.
Phoenix @20
You made me think of this great C.S. Lewis quote, pardon my sarcasm this morning :D
“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things (C.J.) said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic – on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg – or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us.”
I think number 3 applies from your list…he’s a poached egg. A poached egg that loves himself way too much.
Regarding C.J.’s use of “our pastor”, I remember that he says YOUR pastor(s) when addressing other churches and I found this quote where he says your senior pastor to the CHBC congregants:
As C.J. Mahaney stated in his May 2008 message to the CHBC congregation,
“And I must make at least one brief comment about Together for the Gospel. If you aren’t aware of this conference, it just took place a few weeks ago in Louisville, Kentucky. It was attended by over 5,500 primarily pastors were in attendance. This conference is really the fruit of your senior pastor’s leadership, you senior pastor’s friendship with a number of individuals.”
Also, if my memory serves me correctly he addressed us on July 10 with “your pastors” have not done anything wrong when he spoke to us at our member’s meeting. Now, I’m not saying that that was intentional or that C.J. was consciously making a statement and communicating that our pastors weren’t his pastors, but that is the wording he used. I have no idea what the motive was.
This is all so sad…and infuriating, BUT GOD…Oh, God, is so glorious that He is using this train wreck for His glory and the good of His people. His faithfulness can not be thwarted and His glory He will not share with another. He is WORTHY of ALL PRAISE! Let us not forget that as we try to figure all of this out.
Aaron, that’s exactly the quote I was paraphrasing:) CJ would be a whole lot less harmful if he DID think he was one helluva great poached egg. And I think he’s rendering himself about as irrelevant as one (OK, time for breakfast!)
#11, 5 years in PDI, My kids love Dave Matthews Band and spend money to see him often but they would never spend that money to go to any SGM conference.
Thank heavens.
Guess we didn’t do such a bad job with our kids and their discernment.
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. (Jeremiah 3:14-15 KJV)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV)
Notice the marked absence of reference to a “local church”
Yah has given pastors to the body. It’s a many-to-many relationship. Let’s not get hung up on “our” or “my” pastor. They are all our pastors.
As to who is and who is not….look to the fruit they bear. Are saints being perfected? Is the work of the ministry occurring? Is the body being edified? Is there unity of the faith?Is there knowledge of the Son of God? Are knowledge and understanding being fed?
Something that I’ve been thinking about since last week – At the beginning of CJ’s Ordinary Pastors teaching from T4G 2010 (http://vimeo.com/11061911), he’s thanking the people for coming to the conference, and he says this:
CJ and the other T4G leaders (Dever, Mohler, and Duncan) love and respect pastors the most. Doesn’t that make you feel special? It kinda ‘splains things a bit, doesn’t it? :scratch
Kinda unrelated, but the thing about what happened at CLC made me think of it – I don’t know how worship at Fairfax normally is these days, but they did one of those sermons on Psalms where they saved most of the singing ’til after the sermon, and… it was really powerful. 3 words of encouragement were given one after another, at least 3 people were dancing :), and a lot of people were wiping tears and seemed really affected by what God was doing. I was blessed to be there. (First time in 7 years pretty much :))
Also another sidenote – they are doing their seminar with the FBI agent on Sat to talk about how to protect kids from sexual stuff, they are forming a task force to protect kids (I didn’t hear details, but it was in the bulletin), and I dunno… there was definitely a shift from the past I couldn’t quite put my finger on. Although I did see the classic Dad sitting with son and turning the poor kid’s face to look “in his eyes” every few seconds. :p :)
About the break in the middle – it may be because I grew up with it – I MISS it when it’s not there. Philly and CLC don’t have it anymore because their kids either go through the whole service or the little one go through the whole service and the older ones walk themselves before the sermon. And all of the churches I have visited outside of SGM the kids aren’t in worship OR they don’t have childcare. I have never been to a church where the kids are allowed to be part of the worship service and then have the option of children’s ministry/sunday school. I prefer it this way because I want ALL of my brothers and sisters in The Lord worshipping with me, but I get the need for them to have their own Bible lesson etc on their level.
It’s pretty obvious that Ceej sees the writing on the wall and realizes that sgm is finished as an org and going to go the way of other cults (i.e. maranatha). He’s trying to keep the money rolling in from books/speaking/conferences and not go down with the ship.
Joshy makes statements and retracts them. He’s trying to keep the royalty checks from his books and the tithes coming in to the mothership.
Dave (can’t think of a nickname for him right now) Harvey continues to try to keep the sheep as brainless clones by pulling out the sgm gossip card to keep the tithes coming in.
The neo-calvinist good ol’ boy network protects ceej – they have no issue since he didn’t get caught with his admin assistant or stealing money to protect their income sources from books, speaking engagement and the conferences.
I sense a pattern that involves money.
Dave Harvey updated his blog on the SGM site.
http://sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Reflections-from-last-weeks-board-retreat.aspx#disqus_thread
In it he gives an update on the board. One comment that I found interesting was as follows …
“Just one last thing: please pray for the board. These guys, who already shoulder significant responsibility in local churches, stepped forward in this dizzying season to accept the burden of interim leadership for Sovereign Grace. Every time we meet like this Pete Greasley flies over from the UK, Craig from Dallas, Rick from Minnesota, Aron from Orlando… well, you get the point. ”
MY COMMENT: To Brent Detwiler’s point, CJ’s sin is surely costing “us” (SGM) a LOT of money. All of these guys are flown in from around the United States and England to address a situation caused by CJ that COULD HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED by the old Board of Directors (Dave, Steve, etc.) but they FAILED in their leadership of the entire situation.
CJ has always made a point to refer to “your pastors” from the times I can recall him speaking to any church (CLC or otherwise), but I can see how he might just consider Dever as his own pastor during his reflection time there without any intention of making it permanent. So I’m not ready to make too much of the “our” vs. “your” in CJ’s statement, I do think it would be wonderfully helpful to SGM if he made an official departure. I can’t help but think it would immediately free up the SGM board and CLC pastors to think, “Now we can just make some decisions without needing to worry about how the mess concerning CJ fits in to it or how he’s going to react to it three months from now.”
@katie #14 – “People prayed and spoke in tongues, and many prophecies were shared.”
Can you share anything about the prophetic words that were shared and how they might relate to the current state of things at CLC?
@Yellow #15 – CLC does have two services, right? I suppose if Josh did this in both services, I’d begin to be a bit suspicious.
@Brokenhearted #29 – “About the break in the middle – it may be because I grew up with it – I MISS it when it’s not there. Philly and CLC don’t have it anymore because their kids either go through the whole service or the little one go through the whole service and the older ones walk themselves before the sermon.”
I believe that break is slowly disappearing within SGM churches – there are at least a few others besides Philly and CLC where it has disappeared and children are just dismissed after the music. I think someone finally realized it could be a bit awkward for guests and broke up any continuity between the music and the sermon. Also, when our church got rid of it, it seemed like it allowed for another song before the sermon.
It’s one of those changes you begin to realize is sort of making its way through SGM, but I’m not sure that this one is coming as advice from the board vs. naturally occurring as pastors talk with one another about how to improve things or as men come back from the pastor’s college and share how CLC is now doing things.
Brokenhearted,
Fairfax can pull in all the FBI guys they can, as long as those pastors are still lying about all the major abuse cases that have happened on their watch, nothing will change.
Seems to me they are missing the bigger picture here and they will be held accountable for every child that has suffered due to their actions. When have they ever humbly and honestly admitted their mistakes? The Family meeting was a complete joke and PR spin.
Regarding the break in the middle, CLC does have a brief one after the worship. During the school year, middle schoolers are dismissed and we take a minute or so to greet those around us. During the summer, there’s no class for middle schoolers, but we still do the greeting. So it’s not gone completely, but in my 14+ years we never had a coffee break like I’ve experienced at a couple of SGM churches in the past.
5years said,
Kevin DeYoung actually did make a statement in support of CJ. He was one of the first – part of that unofficial review committee (forget what they called it) that made a pronouncement before the Apostles of Reconciliation even showed up.
I’ve loved DeYoung as an author, but I have a very hard time with the fact that he agreed to be part of the SGM fiasco.
Pro to not having a break – the churches that don’t seem to get out earlier like both times I have been to Richmond it was about 90 minutes for the whole service :)
Con – I pee a LOT and I already pee during the break and the sermon, so when there is no break I just feel super more distracting :)
As far as Fairfax – HappyMom, I don’t have anything to tell you. You had your experiences and interactions and there is no one who can tell you what you feel or think is wrong in any way, but every pastor I have talked to there and every thing I have seen coming out of that church in the past 6 months has definitely seemed to be that they see that those things were happening and they desperately want to train parents how to see the signs and make sure their kids are safe. I know you felt betrayed and abandoned in your time of need (and now…) and I can’t explain the extreme disconnect. I just can’t. All I can do is pray and wait to see how God is going to redeem this. And take hope. I am seeing change that I have wanted in that church for YEARS and it gives me hope. I cannot explain to you why your family is so distant at this time – I just can’t figure it out and I’ve been spending months trying. And it makes me SO sad, but I know that the truth will come out someday even if it’s not ’til Heaven!
You know, it strikes me that when SGM asked for input from outsiders regarding the CJ/Brent stuff, that was a total stroke of P.R. genius.
SGM looked über humble.
And SGM could rest assured that no outsider would ever be able to discern the rottenness of CJ’s behavior, because no outsider would ever have a good enough understanding of SGM’s culture to grasp what would have driven Brent to put together his documents. Instead, any outsider looking at Brent’s documents would just be distracted by the seeming Pharisaical pickiness and think that Brent was the one with the problem.
Nowhere else in “normal” Christianity is the “sin of unentreatability” enough to disqualify a guy from ministry. Outsiders would never pick up on the fact that many men in SGM have been de-gifted over the years for far less than the behavior CJ exhibited in the (undisputedly written-by-CJ) emails Brent quoted.
SGM knew when they asked outsiders for input that they were safe. Outsiders would rally behind CJ…and SGM could look wonderfully humble, asking for help like that.
Thinking out loud here…
While I am glad/relieved/overjoyed that Fairfax is taking the safety of children seriously, am I the only one that thinks it is odd that the FBI is coming? No one in the congregation is an attorney? A police officer? In law enforcement? Able to research and present facts/wisdom?
We need to be so under authority that only the authority of the FBI will do? Or is this just proactive CYA?
Perhaps this is a good thing meant to scare the pony droppings out of prospective perverts.
I would love to hear the scoop from any attendees after the FBI meeting.
I’m still curious how it is that CJ is getting paid to be the president of Sovereign Grace Ministries…while he’s not actually an active part of any Sovereign Grace Ministries congregation but instead is attending a Baptist church.
QE2 – From what Vince said yesterday this FBI guy gives seminars to other groups and stuff, so I guess he is just experienced in it and knows what questions people have and stuff?
They also had another Family Meeting last night – I’d love to hear an update on that :)
Kris – I think it’s uber weird…
@QE2 #39 : “No one in the congregation is an attorney? A police officer? In law enforcement? Able to research and present facts/wisdom?”
Actually, that’s probably very intentional – allowing an outside voice to present information to the church rather than having an “approved insider” do it. Part of the problem was that those on the inside didn’t really know what they were doing.
Having an FBI agent come in and give a talk is all well and good…but in a way it seems like overkill-for-show.
Why not just institute a mandatory reporting policy for the pastors when these things come up? And a policy stating that pastors will work with the legal system rather than on behalf of perpetrators?
@Kris #40 – Can’t remember whether this has been brought up already, but if I wanted to separate from CLC and still continue my larger ministry without ongoing controversy, I might want an outside group to privately mediate my disputes with CLC. Then I’d be able to walk away and say it’s just a “Paul and Barnabas type of disagreement” – no one can really be labeled as wrong or sinful, we just have some theological/ministry differences and think it best to separate.
Then Josh and the CLC pastors could threaten to expose some incriminating information about one of CJ’s children if CJ explains things this way, and…oh, wait, that might not work out in the long run.
Whirlwind, I think that’s a very good point. Instead of relying on their own wisdom, which has demonstrably failed them, they are bringing in someone from outside.
I was referring to Whirlwind’s #42 regarding Fairfax’s bringing in someone from the FBI to do a seminar on protecting children from abuse.
That’s the problem-only Pastors, who are NOT qualified in the legal arena, were the ones deciding church policy.
I am sure in such a large church there ARE “regular members”, not “approved insiders-meaning pastors” who are qualified to weigh in on the issue. But the pastors never invited them to the table. Fairfax probably does need outsiders at this point just for integrity’s sake.
I guess my first impression was more of the same “the average church attender has nothing to offer. We need professionals.” That’s what the whole SGM pyramid is based on-pastors are professionals who have God on their speed dial, while the masses have no access except through the pastors…Never mind the fact that the regular church member may BE a professional in a certain field in the secular world. Just another example of how only involving “staff” in decisions leaves the whole church without the blessing of “what could have been” if they took advantage of the unique skills and abilities the “regular” church members possess.
I am glad the FBI is giving their presentation. If they go around giving the presentation, it is most likely going to be very informative, helpful, and uniform. And no one can do an end run around their legal responsibilities from now on, because the FBI will be telling everyone what the responsibilities really are. No hiding due to the sheep’s ignorance. No spin, no leaving loopholes or escape clauses.
I think I would like to know the FBI guy’s opinion about covering up child sexual abuse and coddling perpetrators. Hopefully someone took the opportunity to give him some background. If not, I expect someone has his contact information?
Also, has Fairfax been picketed as yet?
Time for an financial audit people! Follow the money, thus the integrity will appear. Does SGM (for the most part) teach that if you don’t tithe you are sinning (i.e. stealing is sinning). What has CJ taught on this? Do you have his messages on this? What is taught in the Pastor’s College on this subject? If SGM (for the most part) is teaching that not tithing is sin, then CJ’s quote has meaning here: “Application devorced from the Gospel is called Legalism.” (CJ 2005 Leadership, Application Preserving our Future). THE BUCK STOPS WITH CJ!!! If he (CJ) taught that not tithing is sinning (i.e. Stealing, Malachi verses), then you have your financial impropriety and disqualification from ministry. For, he (CJ’s) would be imposing his (CJ’s) authority over our Lord Jesus Christ in what He did on the cross (Eph 2:14-18, Colossians 2:8-15). Time to audit your messages, teaching in writing, Pastor’s college documents, etc. He who has great authority and power also has great accountability! Come on people, show CJ what Christ has done and help him walk the cross centered life! :clap
Brokenhearted,
This in no way is your burden but I do appreciate your tender heart, I also appreciate your insightful prayers for child B. I know you can’t answer our questions and I certainly don’t expect you to. I just don’t see what is exciting when they are still spinning the truth of what happened in ALL the abuse stories. Just ask the survivors from Fairfax and see the pattern of deception and spin. Fairfax has not only been unreconciled with us, they have not reconciled with any of those from the other abuse stories as well. Those published and unpublished. So it’s not just a family disagreement as they’d like their members to believe.
Can the FBI guy run a polygraph on those pastors while he is there? Might make better use of his time. The perps present one problem, deceptive and ill-equipped pastors present another. A perp had a huge party five weeks after going to trial for his second felony, invites went out, pastors kids went…I asked Mark how that could happen, his response…”opppss, that one slipped by me” I’m sure most of the parents who sent their kids to this party were not aware of the perps background. How is the FBI gonna help with that?