Dave Harvey Touts Group Reconciliation, Brent Detwiler Responds, C.J. Mahaney Takes The Stage In Knoxville
October 3, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
On the Sovereign Grace Ministries blog, Dave Harvey explained a bit about the “group reconciliation” process. Here is what he shared:
As I mentioned last week, we have been preparing for a process called Group Reconciliation Assistance, led by Ambassadors of Reconciliation (AOR).
We’re about to start this—and it’s an opportunity for you to get involved. I’ll share more details about that in a few minutes, but first I want to explain what Group Reconciliation Assistance is and why we’ve engaged AOR to lead us through it.
Group Reconciliation Assistance is a type of mediation designed to help organizations address leadership challenges, biblical obligations toward those who have grievances or offenses, long-term cultural norms, and community relations. It also provides group training in peacemaking and individual coaching opportunities. All of this incorporates the ministry of reconciliation given us in Jesus Christ.
The process for Group Reconciliation Assistance incorporates four phases. In phase 1, AOR teaches biblical peacemaking, coaches individuals, and gathers information from documents, interviews, and forms. During phase 2, AOR studies the information received, identifies a few key parties to offer reconciliation assistance (coaching and mediation), conducts mediations, and provides an oral report to SGM. Phase 3 is the preparation and delivery of a written report on what has been learned and recommendations. Phase 4 incorporates a follow-up visit from AOR and continued peacemaking by SGM peacemakers. The entire process will likely take six months or more.
We want to make every effort to be reconciled with others and equip our churches for peacemaking. We also see this process as an opportunity to strengthen relationships and learn ways to improve our structure and methods so that this family of churches can serve our Lord better. If we can glorify God, serve others, and grow to be more like Christ through this process, it will be more than worth it. We believe this is one of the most valuable investments we can make in the future of Sovereign Grace churches.
The board has several specific goals for Group Reconciliation Assistance:
- We want AOR to educate all SGM leaders, and as many members as possible, on biblical principles for peacemaking.
- We want AOR to help Sovereign Grace leaders identify where we have sinned against others so that we can pursue personal reconciliation.
- We want AOR to help us identify key weaknesses and strengths in SGM’s cultural norms, polity, and structure.
- We want AOR to hear directly from as many Sovereign Grace leaders and members as possible.
- We want AOR to provide coaching that will help us and others pursue reconciliation where it’s needed.
And for all this to happen, we need you.
How to get involved
If you or your spouse are or have been a leader or member in a Sovereign Grace church, you’re invited to participate.
The first phase of Group Reconciliation Assistance will be held concurrently with our Pastors Conference in Gaithersburg, Maryland, November 8–10. At the conference two things will happen:
1. Teaching. On Tuesday, November 8, from 12:30 to 5:00pm, AOR will teach a seminar titled “Getting to the Heart of Conflict.” They believe this session will help us grow in how we process and resolve conflicts, in our local churches and beyond. Registration for this seminar is free and open to everyone. This seminar is required for anyone who wants to be considered for a second aspect of Group Reconciliation Assistance: a private interview with AOR staff.
2. Interviews. AOR is offering private interviews with as many people as possible in Gaithersburg, November 8–10.
These interviews are intended to provide a confidential way for people to express their grievances and offenses, and learn how to respond to past and current situations in a God-pleasing manner. They’re also intended to help AOR gather information in order to assess Sovereign Grace Ministries’ strengths and weaknesses. AOR has asked to hear both from those with concerns and grievances, and from those with commendation and encouragement for SGM.
The invitation to request an interview includes pastors’ wives and other women. We recognize that women are an important part of the SGM family, but sometimes they may feel left out. One of the AOR Team members will be a woman whose husband is a pastor. She will be available to meet with women to hear their concerns or joys and provide coaching and encouragement. Women may attend an interview together with their husband, or they may request a separate interview with our woman coach. We are hopeful that this will provide an opportunity for women to be heard and receive care in a special way.
It’s possible that AOR will receive more interview requests than they can accommodate. If that happens, they will give priority scheduling to those they believe will best help them accomplish the goals of reconciliation and assessing SGM.
So as a summary, here’s what this phase of Group Reconciliation Assistance involves:
- October 1–14: SGM and AOR receive interview requests and notify participants prior to the conference if they are selected for an interview
- November 8, 12:30–5:00pm: AOR presents “Getting to the Heart of Conflict” in Gaithersburg, Maryland
- November 8–10: AOR conducts onsite interviews concurrent with the Sovereign Grace Pastors Conference
Who should participate?
Anyone interested in getting training for conflict resolution and reconciliation is welcome to participate in the seminar.
Because this seminar is also part of a process by which AOR will gather information on SGM from members and pastors, we also encourage anyone to participate who feels they have important input about SGM’s strengths and weaknesses, regardless of whether or not reconciliation is needed or desired. After the seminar, attendees will be invited to fill out homework that provides feedback for AOR about SGM. They want to hear both from those with concerns and from those with commendation for SGM, so please come if you any input that will help AOR understand and counsel us.
What to do
Use the sign-up form to register for the “Getting to the Heart of Conflict” seminar and, if desired, request an interview with AOR. If a woman desires to meet with the female coach, she can indicate that in the form. Interview requests must be made by October 14 so that AOR has time to prioritize and schedule the interviews.
If you have questions about any of this, please email Andrew (amahr@sovgracemin.org).
What happens after November 10
This three-day period is only phase 1 of Group Reconciliation Assistance. After the interviews conclude on November 10, here’s how AOR will proceed:
Phase 2 will begin with AOR reviewing the information collected from documents, forms filled out by participants, and individual interviews. They may share some initial observations with SGM at this point but will provide a more detailed report at the end of phase 2.
Based on their review, AOR will identify a few people they believe are key to the reconciliation process and provide mediation assistance for them, if they’re willing and able to participate. While they can’t provide it for everyone, AOR expects that a number of people could benefit from mediation assistance. This would involve further coaching in resolving conflicts and encouraging reconciliation through confession and forgiveness.
Within one or two months of the Pastors Conference, AOR will conduct the additional coaching appointments and provide mediation assistance for those that are willing.
After the additional coaching and mediations have taken place, AOR will present an oral report to the SGM Board providing some of its initial observations. AOR will discuss possible recommendations with the Board as part of its preparations for the written report.
In phase 3, AOR will prepare and deliver a written report to the SGM Board. The written report will incorporate a summary of what the AOR Team learns from the information they receive including documents, forms you fill out, individual interviews, and results from mediation. They’ll evaluate and analyze trends and specific examples, then report the general substance (but not specific details) of this information. The written reports will describe the process employed, identify strengths and weaknesses of SGM, describe some of the major conflicts and contributing factors, and provide short-term and long-term recommendations.
In addition, the report will help SGM identify people who could form a peacemaking team. Part of AOR’s vision is to identify and equip naturally gifted reconcilers within SGM who can continue to purse reconciliation between individuals after AOR’s Reconciliation Team is gone and help SGM develop a culture of peacemaking over time. AOR will try to identify people who could serve on this team and recommend them to SGM for further training.
In phase 4, AOR will make a follow-up visit to SGM approximately 90 days after their written report. Follow-up is important because it creates a sense of accountability and gives SGM a chance to review its progress. This on-site visit from AOR will include two days for evaluation and follow-up assistance.
Ongoing Peacemaking
As AOR has pointed out to us, “it usually takes an organization many months or years to develop cultural norms in response to conflicts and crises, and it usually takes weeks, months, or years for an organization to work through its long-term conflicts.”
We’re keenly aware that what we’re doing now is only one step in a process. But we’re also keenly aware that God has reconciled us to himself through Christ, and is reconciling his people to each other as well. If you’d like to participate in Group Reconciliation Assistance, we would love to hear from you. And whether or not you participate personally, please pray with us that God’s grace and peace continue to multiply in Sovereign Grace churches.
Brent Detwiler posted a response on his blog. He also emailed the response to us, so that we could share it with everyone here:
Group Reconciliation Assistance Made Easy! (Facetiously Speaking)
Sunday, October 2, 2011 at 12:15PMYesterday, Dave Harvey posted “Group Reconciliation Assistance and how you can be involved” on the SGM blog. Under the heading, “How to get involved,” he says, “If you or your spouse are or have been a leader or member in a Sovereign Grace church, you’re invited to participate.”
That’s sounds great! So let’s get going. If you have grievance or offenses with Sovereign Grace Ministries here’s what you need to do. It’s easy.
Act immediately! You don’t get any “coaching and encouragement” and you don’t have a chance to be interviewed by Ambassadors of Reconciliation unless you attend the “Getting to the Heart of Conflict” seminar on November 8. You need to register by October 14. That’s less than two weeks.
So clear your schedule. Hurry up and get to work because you can’t wait to make other arrangements until you hear back from AOR. They may not contact you until the night before the Conference begins. You must proceed in faith not by sight. The Pastors Conference is only five weeks away.
Tomorrow tell your boss you need a week off from work assuming you have vacation time to spare and don’t much care how you use it. Or maybe you can plan to be sick the week of the conference.
Then make arrangements for child care. That’s always simple. Fly Grandma and Grandpa in from Alaska.
Then if you live west of the Mississippi get plane tickets this week if you hope for a discount which normally must be purchased a month in advance. Oops, I forgot to mention. Mid-week travel to D.C. is a killer in terms of cost because of pricey business rates.
So if you and your offended wife come to the Pastors Conference, don’t be offended at how much all of this will cost you. You still need a rental car and motel. And don’t forget meals. All extremely inexpensive in the D.C. area! So just go into debt and cancel your family vacation for next year. You can crimp on Christmas too. Just tell the kids they are giving up their presents so you can share your grievance and offenses with AOR. Well, maybe. That is, if you’re selected.
That means you need to start praying and fasting you are selected by AOR for an interview. But keep in mind, Sovereignty and Suffering. You might just get a phone call saying you won’t be interviewed at the Pastors Conference. No big deal. All things work together for good. Cancel all your arrangements and thank the Lord you were left out.
Lastly, I’m sure hundreds of disenfranchised leaders and members who left SGM can’t wait to attend a Sovereign Grace Conference and hang out with people they were cut off by or left because it was too painful to stay.
And what are the long terms effects of your labors? Who knows. If you’re granted an interview at the conference that doesn’t mean you will be granted mediation assistance after the conference. Plan more time off, money spent, travel needed, and difficult meetings to attend. Then hope for some success.
Finally, everything you and others share with AOR about your negative experience in SGM will be strictly confidential. Only the SGM Board will get an oral and written report from AOR. So in the end, if any former leaders or members show up at the Pastors Conference to give input, it could be covered over with no public accounting or personal consequences for anyone. Now for a serious thought. If Sovereign Grace Ministries really wants input then they must come up with a far better strategy than this one. When few people show up at the Pastors Conference to provide feedback, they can only blame themselves. And God forbid the SGM Board blames former leaders and members for not taking advantage of “reconciliation assistance” while claiming they made every effort to pursue reconciliation by devising this strategy.
Finally, for the second Sunday in a row during his “quiet season of reflection,” C.J. Mahaney preached, this time at the SGM church in Knoxville, TN. You can listen to C.J.’s teaching at this link.
© 2011, Kris. All rights reserved.
Just to close the loop on this. Kris, you’re right that what I was looking for was really the absence of specific good testimonies. But I played fair and I also wanted to do my poor best to give folks permission to share good memories as part of working through their processes.
You are also correct that there could be many reasons why people didn’t share the stories I asked for. One of them is certainly that there aren’t that many. Which, again (and then I’m leaving this alone) says a lot when you’re talking about many decades of combined pastoral experience. Selah.
I have neither the time nor the money to go to Gaithersburg. I think the leaders of SGM have no ability to empathize with the average working church member — who work normal schedules and get average pay — most of us are not able to get time off at our every whim or have the money to take an improptu trip unlike these SGM pastors.
How about we all send our stories to Dave Harvey and AoR, and encourage everyone we know who has been wounded by SGM to do the same? Maybe a large volume of hurtful stories at once will get noticed? I think the are too lazy to do the work of wading through the blogs. Plus they can’t admit to reading our stories since they have continually condemned reading of the blog can they?
Dave Harvey describes the first piece of the AoR process this way:
Does anyone else join me in finding this bizarre and off-putting from the get-go?
Pretty much, unless you’re willing to sit through a presentation of AOR’s notions on what constitutes “biblical” peacemaking, and then be coached by them, you won’t gain access to the process of having your grievance heard.
What in the world sort of “coaching” is involved, anyway? What does that even mean? Why would a supposedly independent mediator feel the need to control and shape input and feedback from those with grievances?
In addition to all the issues Brent points out, this “coaching” strikes me as just beyond bizarre. What a joke.
I know this is totally off topic and I know it’s “old news,” but I just wanted to ask the current CLC people a question:
I heard that Corby kind of explained the Mahaney sons-in-law severance, but I never heard if he wrote a letter to the congregation and I never heard what came of it.
What I did hear was the base $ amount was somewhere over $50,000. I don’t believe that included the other things…health insurance, school tuition etc. I also heard that Corby explained to people that he made a mistake, but I don’t believe any letter came out. I don’t know if that situation has been swept under a rug or if there’s anything coming of it.
Can anyone fill me in?
Thanks,
Sidney
I read the reconciliation process, and then I read it again, then I read it again looking for the part I must have missed. It wasn’t there. When we left our SGM church two years ago, I said that in 50 years maybe it would be a good denomination (not family) to belong to. I’ll probably be dead by then. :new
I think SGM is using the wrong word for this process. Reconciliation typically happens both parties come together. The one party, in this case SGM, recongnizes their wrong doing, repents, and trys to reconcile with the offended party.
SGM up to this point hasn’t even reached a point where they can reconcile with anyone. The’ve admitted no wrong doing. CJ is off reflecting. The TRUTH is still ferred to as gossip/slander. How can you reconcile when you don’t think you’ve done anything wrong?
SGM should really call this ARBITRATION.
I would love to be able to go to the group reconciliation stuff. But Brent is pretty accurate in explaining why.
My husband works and cannot take off work for this
I have 3 kids in school and I don’t have anyone who could keep them
I live 1,700 miles away and plane tickets are $350 apiece
We live on one income and there is no money left over at the end of the month
Why are they torturing us like this?
Kris – it is absolutely bizarre. My first thought is they are flippin’ control freaks! Not only are they the ones harboring abusers, defending abusers, being abusers themselves, but now they get to call the shots and orchestrate the meetings/interviews, place of meetings, time of meetings, what gets to be mediated, etc. That is more blatant control freak behavior right there. Once again, it puts the true victims in the victim seat because they have no say in any of this process and how/when/where it will occur. Who would want to go against and challenge this monster? It obviously didn’t work before, what would convince someone who has been victimized that now would be any different with the control-freak stance they have taken?
If I didn’t see this in writing, I never would have believed it.
“Extrabiblical”. Not to mention creepy.
Scripture is clear and simple. If your brother has something against you, go to him before you come to the gathering to present your offering.
They know who to go to in many cases. They know to go to wallace and happymom, exCLCMom, Deb Baker, former pastors, former leaders, stunned, the people from GEs church, those degifted by a hypocritical double standard, Kerrin, wives commanded to stay with wife beaters, little kids, the list goes on. THEY KNOW. Harvey knows. They can do what the bible says and contact people. It says to go to the brother holding an offense. THEY KNOW who to go to.
If they tried already and the brother keeps on being offended, well then yeah, maybe they need to pull in this mediation. I can see that it might apply in a minority of cases, I mean, they’ll claim they tried to talk to wallace and happy mom. Greg S will say he sent a letter to this blog to try and patch it up regarding sex abuse cases (why exactly did CLC not go right to the people involved instead?)
It appears to me to be obvious. They need to look good to the national conference circuit and this is required to preserve the facade. Those of us who see the truth will not be fooled, but no doubt the average young neocalvinist will be satisfied and keep on buying SGM products.
ugh. Double ughs today.
All I can say:
What the he**, SGM?
Just trying to read through Mr Harvey’s post is agonizing. In addition to all the vague descriptions of the problem, 2 examples. :scratch Stage four will be ” continued peacemaking by SGM peacemakers”? Could take a really long time, so don’t get impatient… :bang The invitees shift during the post from those who’ve been grieved or offended (could include people like me or DPV)– to those who’ve been SGM pastors, members, or spouses (could include Brent but I suppose not Larry T)– to “anyone interested in getting training in conflict resolution” certainly leaving the “unteachable” Brent or abuse victims on the outside. So they’ll pursue reconciliation with all except those with whom they need it.
If you go back and read the earlier report given by AoR, one of the things they mentioned to SGM was the biblical mandate that if they are aware of someone who has been offended, it is their responsibility to go to that individual and make an effort to reconcile even if the offended party isn’t wanting to meet. What I understood from this is that if Brent didn’t yet want to meet with CJ, CJ should have showed up on his doorstep in an effort to reconcile. (See Recommendation #1 in this document: http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/file.axd?file=2011/8/aor-proposal.pdf – this recommendation has a lot of very plain language regarding how the board needs to proceed and doesn’t allow them to make excuses.)
My impression is that maybe GS was trying to follow through on this when he reached out to the blogs – even though he wasn’t directly involved in the conflicts with those he mentioned in his posting.
So I’m wondering…how many people here can say:
1) SGM leadership (specifically board members) knows very well that I have never reconciled with them over past/ongoing conflicts.
2) Those leaders certainly know how to contact me if they desire to do so.
3) Those leaders have NOT attempted to contact me since AoR gave their recommendation.
This is AoR’s recommended action for the board. Have they done this with any offended parties? If not, why are they pursuing further outside help from AoR to reconcile with offended parties? AoR has said that only after they have exhausted every possible effort at reconciliation should they bring in outside help.
Now, instead of bearing the burden of reconciliation with those they have offended AS INSTRUCTED, they’ve placed the burden back on those they have offended.
I’m a first-time poster and a “discredited” former SGM pastor. I thought it might be relevant to share my response to a 3rd party recruiting me to participate in the AoR Group Reconcilliation process:
Thanks for continuing to think of me and keeping me in your loop. I’m wondering if you were serious or sarcastic when you said things there were going “swimmingly”. I hope you see or know about some good things that I am unaware of.
With respect to the Dave Harvey/SGM offer of group reconciliation sessions with AoR, I can hardly imagine that anyone would be seriously encouraged. Is it a good faith offer? Maybe, if they are catastrophically naïve. Is it a reasonable, promising or effective offer? Not in the slightest. There’s no way people like me are going to miss work and spend time & travel money to come sit in a seminar and be instructed as to how we should think. Then, only a select few would be chosen for interviews. (Everyone else should just be happy to have received the blessing of the seminar?) And even for the chosen few, there is not the smallest hint of promise for any sort of adjudication. Just listening and note-taking resulting in a confidential oral report. Very controlled. All information very well-managed . . . as usual. It’s a poorly designed program, even if the top SGM brass was fully trustworthy. Far worse when the powers-that-be seem to be unworthy of our confidence. It smells like a publicity stunt, after which SGM can assure its members that it tried its very best and has done all that can be reasonably expected of it. I’m not even slightly tempted to take part.
It’s not that offended parties, such as myself, are unwilling to participate or contribute. SGM and AoR just need to design a better process. It sure wouldn’t be difficult to do better than the current proposal. I’m already aware that someone has suggested a well-designed questionnaire to be made broadly available. Brilliant! It could be advertised and offered through the SGM website as well as the Refuge and Survivor sites as well as through the existing SGM churches. Encourage succinct written testimonials as well as answers to categorical questions that might be grouped and quantified for study/observation. Give max word limits, if necessary. SGM and AoR would start receiving input within a matter of days, and the submissions would flow in for weeks. What a treasure trove of data to help AoR understand the broader impact of SGM culture!! Submitters could choose to be 1) anonymous, or 2) names confidential with AoR, or 3) names freely known. Their contact information would allow AoR to get in touch with selected contributors for questions and clarifications. Some may be sought out for personal face-time, at SGM’s expense.
Benefits: Broadly available. Safe, inexpensive and minimally inconvenient for victims. Cost effective for AoR & SGM. Enormous harvest of information. Ease & accuracy in re-sharing and re-examining important stories from original sources rather than AoR notes. Potential quantification of data within specific information categories. Others??
Disadvantages: Perhaps the number of responses would be too-shockingly high. SGM would have less control over the information. Some of the hundreds of written testimonies might get away from them. Contributors probably unwilling to sign confidentiality agreements. Others??
I’m totally sincere about this. How can any SGM efforts be taken seriously if they don’t make an earnest attempt to hear from everyone whom they have offended? A strong, broad-based appeal for testimonies would give SGM churches the beginnings of a list of offended parties which might be pursued for possible reconciliation in the coming months and years. Does SGM have anything less ambitious in mind? Please, please tell us that the November 8th offering is not the best that we can hope for!
And comments are closed on that latest SGM post. :huh
With the confidentiality clause that some have indicated happens when you enter into reconciliation appears to be another “smart” strategy on the part of SGM. SGM doesn’t want their questionable actions known. They have used the “gossip and slander” card and that worked for a while for their history, Then the blogs happened and SGM found they weren’t able to use that ploy as easily. All of a sudden people are sharing and posting past and current abuses and questionable actions.
What a “great” way to bring this information under control. Offer to set up “reonciliation” process that includes the confidentiality clause which silences people what have suffered harm and abuse from SGM and/or CLC. This way people are sworn to silence and can’t share what happened to them including posting on this blog.
Slick maneuver on SGM’s part.
Even if during the reconciliation it is admitted that there were abuses by leadership, under this option leadership gets to keep their actions hidden rather than being exposed.
I laughed pretty hard when I read the proceedure :D
Its all typical SGM from beginning to end :bang Maybe one day SGM leadership and many of there pastors will become real men of God…… BUT right now all I see is a bunch school yard cry babies with some very serious selfish arrogant attitudes….
REALLY SGM could you imagine the souls that could be won if you would just dump the Koolaid and start spreading the good news of Christ ? You all ( SGMers ) need to realize that the God will judge you for your arrogance and complete lack of love , grace ,care for the lesser brother or sisters in Christ
wow and I did not even swear :roll:
Just out of curiosity, I looked at AOR’s “Consultation Report” dated Aug 24th to see how THEY described the Group Reconciliation Assisitance process. Although some of SGM’s announcement is verbatim from the report, there are some revealing discrepancies. My favorite:
AOR Report pg. 16: “Group Reconciliation Assistance is designed to assist the organization’s leaders and members in addressing current biblical obligations towards those who have been deeply hurt…”
SGM/Harvey: “Group Reconciliation Assistance is a type of mediation designed to help organizations address… biblical obligations toward those who have grievances or offenses…”
Now why couldn’t Dave bring himself to say this is for those SGM has deeply hurt? Typical.
Blind Squirrel,
:welcome :goodpost I think you have a lot of solid suggestions and reasoning!
Blind Squirrel, no running out in front of speeding cars.
One thing I noticed Mahaney didn’t include in his canned message on Jude given at Capital Hill Baptist (and assume he didn’t give at Knoxville) was his being an unemployed former Sr. Pastor. That was part of Mahaney’s canned speech I heard him use at I believe 2 locations including Richmond.
I guess Mahaney can’t joke about this with all that has happened to him. With his temporarily stepping down I guess it just isn’t as funny as it was before all this happened. ;-)
At least Mahaney made one change to his canned message. ;-)
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”- George Orwell
As long as they keep the mentality that the people are there to serve the pastors, and not the other way around…that pastors are there to serve their flocks, nothing will change. Just curious Dave H., do you really think this is how Jesus would go about reconciliation by making the people that you’ve injured jump through hoops just to possibly get instruction about how to deal with their hurts? It’s just business as usual at SGM and only reinforces how unChristlike you’ve become. Maybe you guys should revisit the story of the shepherd and the lost sheep and find out how your lives line up with the example given by Jesus….then, and only then can real change occur and credibilty be restored.
Here we go again – SGM continues to use cult-like control to be able to put out the response they want to save the revenue (follow the money).
This also show once again a truth about SGM:
Perception is reality.
SGM has always cared about the PERCEPTION of what they do as opposed to the reality of the situation.
This business of a half-hearted attempt at reconciliation is not new.
For example, take Josh’s “apology” in May. Josh said,
So, how have they tried to “get this apology out to them”?
It was only up on the CLC website for a month. Why did they take it down?
Did they ask all the members for names and contact info of people who have left so that they could mail them a copy of the apology?
Did they look at old member directories to try and contact people still living in the area?
Just what did they do to “get this apology out to them”?
And, why do we expect anything different from them now?
Blind Squirrel,
Thank you for your comment. Welcome!
The approach you proposed makes a whole lot more sense and would be much more effective…if SGM and AOR really were interested in honest feedback.
This whole AOR thing simply cannot be about gathering free and honest feedback, or it would have been set up far differently, without the “coaching” and all the other built-in means of control. The setup itself excludes most people in the organization.
The question then becomes, what IS it about?
I think Leo is correct, in that it would seem to be about appearances – about being perceived as making efforts to “reconcile” and hear grievances. If it were about MORE than mere perceptions, then they would have made the process accessible rather than the opposite.
Valley Boy –
I was just wondering about the Great Disappearing Apology. I went to quote a piece of it a couple of days ago and found that my old links no longer worked. It’s a shame that the text of that speech has now disappeared from CLC’s website. I wonder what happened there?
I am not an offended one. BUT I am offended to see what SGM is doing to the members of the Church of Jesus Christ.
This process is insane. So, the OFFENDED should now spend more money and time and surely humble themselves even further so that they can have the privaledge of being reconciled to their OFFENDERS. And this after many of them have already been trying to reconcile for years. Hmmm . . . And come hear the proper (i.e OUR) way to go about this process. By the way if you can’t or won’t do this, YOU are not humble enough, which will disqualify YOU from our process and just proves that you are a sinner. (Not so funny how that circle works – anything not our way equals sin on the other’s part.
SGM – you ask too much of the offended.
Oh, and maybe if people see all the time and God’s money that we spend on this they will see how hard we are trying to reach out – ugh! Money and processes won’t cause hardened hearts to be changed. It will be the work of God and the Holy Spirit to soften those hearts and bring repentance from one man/woman to another.
There are some good suggestions above from posters, but if you want them heard I suggest you send them directly to every SGM board member. It might be hard for the suggestions to be implemented if someone has to confess to seeing them on a blog :wink:
Word on the street is that later today, SGM will publish additional information for those who cannot accommodate the Apostles of Reconciliation process as it has been described thus far.
Maybe they’ve realized how silly the current info makes them look?
I’m still hung up on the word “coaching.” I want to know what these Reconciliation Apostles do when they “coach” someone? Or a group of someones?
“All right, team – huddle up! Here’s the play – here’s how it’s gonna go!”
(Maybe “coaching” is an unfortunate word for me right now, what with watching too many kids’ sporting events lately…but seriously – “coaching” carries with it a lot of connotations that have no business in any sincere effort to hear from injured parties.)
These AoR guys are kinda funny. I can’t believe they get paid for this stuff.
Why would anyone pay AoR big bucks to do what they could have already done for free?
Is there a money tree growing in the back of SGM/CLC property or something?
This extravagant cost of AOR could have been completely avoided if SGM/CLC pastors did the right thing years ago.
Who set this up–AOR or SGM?
I can’t believe that the Lutherans are tainting themselves by going along with all this unbiblical SGM & Mahaney nonsense.
Wait, they want the SURVIVORS to sit in on a SEMINAR on how to respond to conflict when it’s been the SGM PASTOR’S who have lied, deceived and hurt the church????
Waste of time folks, been there, done that. These pastors are never gonna admit to what they have done with HONESTY and INTEGRITY, too much at stake for them.
If these men are still lying and deceiving people in their Family meetings,(Fairfax for one) what’s gonna make this any different?
The “coaching” term reminds me of how pedophiles coach or “groom” their targets before victimizing them. :/
At this new church I have been attending for a few weeks, I ran into a girl who was one of the small group leaders, for a group I wanted to join, and I asked her about it. I told her how I’m scared because of how my former church, the leaders would tell pastors about things I’ve said and how there are files. She gave me an odd look, and said “we don’t have time for that”. Sorry this was a bit off topic, but wanted to share it.
Blues and Leo –
It appears to be the 99 over the 1; or the perception (image) over the person. One is expendable if the 99 are still with us. And what about the 99? What part do they play? Are they just happy little sheep minding their own business? Is this what God has called them for – their family only? their lovely local church only? their children only? their family of churches only? Can these good things become idols?
Looking again at what Mr. Harvey published on the blog, I’m wondering–is this addressed to the wounded, or is it addressed to current members? It isn’t clear. Is it a seminar for current members to train them to assist in the reconciliation process? Or is it an invitation to wounded people to come and have their “grievances” heard (and evaluated)?
If it’s the latter, his wording is certainly–well, odd. “You can get involved!” Is that how you speak to people who have been hurt by your sinful errors–“Come and get involved!”
I honestly don’t see how they can possibly think that this strange and convoluted process will bring about true reconcilation.
SGM leaders!! When will you go to those you have wounded, and weep with them? When?
Plus, if in fact it’s current members who are being urged to come for training to be part of the process–how will that help?
If Pastor Zeke has wronged someone by his unbiblical counsel, he should speak to them himself, not send some newly-trained bright-eyed current member.
Makes me want to throw rocks at my cat.
:beat
I guess Jeff Purswell wrote a document all about “slander” and “gossip,” seeking to more clearly define what those activities are and why Brent Detwiler did indeed engage in them according to the Hebrew and Greek. This document is floating around right now – I have a copy. As I was reading it, and also processing everything coming down the pike from the AOR show, it occurred to me that these SGM guys have a big hangup about being right, and about never fully acknowledging or taking ownership of their mistakes.
I mean, does it really matter if Jeff Purswell can go to town and show off his knowledge of Greek and Hebrew and somehow “prove” that Brent Detwiler engaged in what the Bible would call “slander”?
(I do not believe that Mr. Detwiler did do this…but for the sake of argument, let’s say Mr. Purswell was able to prove his hoped-for point.)
Does the correctness of the “slander” charge somehow negate the truth of what Brent says about CJ and his inner circle of enablers?
Here’s an extreme example to make my point…
Let’s say (and this is total dramatic silliness, but let’s just say) that I killed someone yesterday. If Jeff Purswell somehow gained knowledge of my crime and went around and told people about it…perhaps Mr. Purswell would indeed be guilty of “slander” and/or “gossip” according to the Greek and Hebrew…
But Mr. Purswell’s slandering and gossiping about me still would not somehow wipe away the fact that I killed someone!
I would still need to pay for my crime and deal with the reality of what I had done!
What is with these guys and their seeming inability to just own it? Why is this so hard for them? Why do they keep so desperately trying to maintain the upper hand with their “biblical” this and “biblical” that and their Greek and their Hebrew?
Dudes, we get it. It kills you to be wrong. It kills you that someone who used to so totally be one of your own has now spilled the beans and called you on your enabling. It kills you to acknowledge that your boss is a full-of-himself accountable-to-nobody dictator. We know that it feels better for you to dig out the lexicons and get all scholarly and “I’ve-actually-been-to-seminary, look-at-me” Bible teacher on us.
And you may even be able to make your case about the “slander” and the “gossip.”
But, dudes. Even if we get it, and even if you’re right about the Hebrew – that doesn’t change the LARGER truth.
Deal with the larger truth first. Get the egg completely wiped off your (and your boss’s) faces. Make things right with the people with whom you need to make things right.
Then – and maybe then – some of us might be interested in what you have to say about the Greek.
Until then, you just look desperate. Like you’re trying to change the subject and have no sense of priorities.
Pardon the sidetrack – Argo – #291, “Questions” – I’m sorry I have been away for family care almost all of September so I missed your post until now when I’ve been trying to catch up.
We left Ffx to go to Colorado on the church plant led by Keith J.acob. Kris posted our story from Fairfax to Denver on April 19, 2009; here’s the link:
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=731
Keith was allowed to remain 4 more years after our departure for some reason but by the time he was fired my understanding is that none of the original church plant team was still there. I think some of the original cgls were finally speaking up about his anger and contacted Shank but I’m not exactly sure. And the church couldn’t have been in a really good state because one of his most loyal supporters told me that when she saw Shank there the day of his de-gifting her first guess was that SS was there to shut down the church.
I said it over on Refuge, I’ll re-post here:
It’s called “Damage Control”.
These men are “Hardened” and have no conscience.
They no longer hear the Holy Spirit.
Like Samson, the don’t even know the Holy Spirit has left them.
It’s just sad…..
Why don’t we do what Blind Squirrel suggested in #13? Who cares that it’s not the approach sanctioned by AoR and SGM? Maybe they won’t actually read every letter but the sheer volume of them would be difficult to ignore.
I’m in.
The proposal looks as if it is designed specifically to discourage anyone from showing up. Surely, if you want to encourage people to show up, you wouldn’t do it like this. If that’s true, then it’s an exercise in propaganda and not a serious attempt at reconciliation or investigation.
It looks to me as if the intention is this. SGM’s leadership want to be able to say to outsiders like the reformed big dogs “we tried to be reconciled to people we hurt and set up a whole process for this which cost us some huge amount of money but when we did this, only x people showed up, only y people said they were hurt and only z people were seriously hurt (where x and y are very small numbers and z is zero). Therefore, we at SGM don’t have any serious problems with hurt people.” (And, of course, it’s easier to get away with saying that if the whole process is confidential.)
Kris #40 – :goodpost
your “silly analogy” reminds me of one of my own and I have a huge problem with the AoR/Peacemakers approach to dealing with offense so if you don’t mind, I have another silly analogy.
If I am carelessly carrying a knife across the room and I slice your arm – even accidentally – you would be entitled to a confession and apology. A “reconciliation” would be warranted. So, if you are standing there offended and bleeding? What does the log/speck teaching have to do with your offense? What heart-searching for sin do you have to do? Why is this ALWAYS the first issue to be looked at in making a broken relationship right? I just don’t buy it and can’t imagine going to a seminar to learn I need to consider my sin before I discuss the pastoral and verbal abuse and yes, even gossip and slander sent our way. Does Happymom have to consider the log/speck and sin in her heart before she wants justice for her child’s life-changing abuse? Really? This is the sandy, shifting foundation of all peacemaking for these people, isn’t it?
Defended,
Good analogy!
Why is this such “common sense” stuff to those of us on the outside, while it seems like the SGM guys like Purswell and Harvey cannot (or will not) see how silly they look when they attack the messenger, rather than deal with the message?
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Questions-about-group-reconciliation.aspx
It is my understanding that Bill Kittrell, Knoxville’s Sr. Pastor, gave the 8 minute introductory talk about Mahaney still being qualified to preach when Mahaney spoke at the Knoxville Church this past Sunday.
Reading the church’s website, it appears that Bill Kittrell was the original pastor and was there when this church was associated with Maranatha Ministries. For those that don’t know, Maranatha Ministries also had similar issues with their leadership that SGM has. Bob Weiner who started and lead Maranatha either always was or became quite the tyrant similar to Mahaney. From what I understand Weiner was more blatant in your face type of a tyrant than Mahaney has shown to be but still there are similarities. Like Mahaney, humility was a big strength of Weiner.
One would think that Kittrell would be a lot more cautious about someone like Mahaney after the experience he went through with Maranatha Ministries. Sadly it doesn’t look like Kittrell is. It looks like Kittrell is repeating the mistakes made with Maranatha.
Ellie Re #32:
I missed it, what is this about the Lutherans??
What happened?
I agree with Luna Moth. This is completely confusing to figure out what in the world they are talking about. Is this for victims of spiritual abuse or is this a coaches training for some new ministry team?
I was wondering if they will still be excommunicating those who are hurt or will they allow them to stay in relationship with the church and their friends if they bring a “grievance”.
The Peacemaker’s process:
1. Sign here that you will never talk about what happened in this room or the church will sue you.
2. Now, you say, “I am sorry. It is all my fault and these are all of the sins I’ve ever thought of committing in my entire life and some I never even thought of.”
3. And we say, “You are right. It is all your fault. And for your penance you will not be allowed to serve on the sound team.”
4. You apologize profusely.
5. They “forgive” you and see you to the door.
The ISSUE is never discussed.
I don’t understand how this process is any different than any of the other meetings behind closed doors. The member can’t tell a soul or be accused of slander. The pastors can tell anyone and everyone they want and announce it at a family meeting.
I would feel completely humiliated if my fellow members or my family and children learned how I had been treated. I won’t be telling my story until my parents are dead and gone.
Phoenix – I have hundreds of great stories. The pastors and leaders have done some wonderful things for me. It’s not all bad. I actually think that in real life, some of them actually knew what they were doing was wrong. Sometimes they secretly were overcome by compassion and broke from the party line. But, telling those stories reveals my identity and right now I need the anonymity to safely process the bad things that have happened.